How much is that APC worth to you?

[Seer]

I don't know about you all, but I'm not in a large outfit. Sometimes there are only three people on, sometimes it is just me. For the most part, this puts me at the mercy of The Horde. Now I know, of course, that I have no right to complain about the cert choices that I and my fellow hordemates choose, but I never the less feel that since this is a game that it should attempt to be fun for all, even for the people that just play for a couple hours a day with perhaps even a random grouping of people.

Now you all know that it is possible to craft a very exact, versatile character without ever touching the vehicle certs. Having things like engineering, medic, advanced hacking, heavy assault and so on gives you a great advantage in combat over less versatile individuals on the other side. In some cases, it allows you to do the work of several soldiers in a single life. This is a powerful draw, and I can't fault anyone for succumbing to it, since I know I have on at least one of my characters. All too often though, it leads to this:

Sere: Does anyone have any vehicles?
Squad:
Squadleader: Everyone go to Xelas
Sere: Anyone, any vehicles at all?
Squad:
Sere: Guess we're walking.

Then we walk, of course, and we meet the enemy who are, for the most part, doing the same thing. A fight ensues and a large number of us are sent back to the nearest spawn. This is fuctional for short distances, but for long ones it is very, very tiring. I think this is a problem, and here it is: to summon and drive a deliverer, a generally thankless task, requires 3 cert points and agile armor. Upon arriving the deliverer is, in all likelihood, destroyed or discarded. At the same time, to aquire the special assault cert, giving one access to 3 amazing and unique weapons, takes the same. Which would you choose? To certify as an engineer, giving you the ability to stay alive sometimes twice as long in a fight, takes 3 certs. Again, I don't see the comparison.

Given the proliferation of AV weaponry in Planetside, the deliverer and things like it, such as the buggies, really have only one purpose--moving people around. Now in large outfits I imagine there are individuals willing to do this, but as I said earlier, the rest of us have to succumb to the will of the Horde, which generally does what it finds pleasureable and certifies in what it finds valuable. So I suggest this: make unglamourous vehicle certifications worth it. I would do this by folding several of the vehicles into one cert, especially the vehicles that are not worth their own 3 point certs, but, at the same time, worth a little too much to be 2 or 1 point certs. I would reconfigure the list like this:


Air Transport (3):
Lodestar
Galaxy

Fighter (4):
Reaver

Scout (3):
Mosquito

Bomber (4):
Liberator

Buggy (3):
Harasser
Empire Buggy

Anti-air (?):
Skyguard

APC (3):
Deliverer
Sunderer

Quad-Cycle (2):
Wraith
Basilisk

Light Tank (3):
Lightning

Heavy Tank (3):
Empire Tank

AMS (3):
Advanced Mobile Station

That way, no one feels they are wasting valuable cert points on niche vehicles when they could be devoting them to increasing their fighting power. Plus I think it makes sense, since these vehicles are in the same category, they should fall under the same cert. Tanks, reavers, bombers, and other things like the AMS which have a permanent place in the combat scheme of planetside should still be kept seperate, since people will get those certs regardless of how much they actually cost.

[ZionsFire]

Yes shouldnt the deliverer only cost 2 cert points

[MilitantB0B]

Good idea. I thought about the same thing today as I wondered why anyone would spend 3 points ona 5 man deliverer when they could spend 3 on the sunderer, wich is not only a transport, but a gunship in its own right. Being a fan of firepower, I always choose the sunderer, but there are several times when I would love to have a deliverer, but don't want to spend the cert points.


Another vehicle suggestion I have is to make the ANT a flying vehicle. I think more people would make ANT runs if the thing flew. It may sound kinda stupid, but even if it goes the same kph, its just more fun to fly, and you don't have to stick to the road. Just a suggestion. :D

[Doppler]

They are probly gonna want to make the new vehicles their own certs, although i must say if they put skyguard on the buggy it will definitly make the buggy cert more appealing. When you think about it a lot of the vehicles are made worthless not just the deliverer to sunderer mentality but also buggy versus heavy tank. On the whole i like and agree with your plan. Other then reavers should cost 10 pounts. Also right now ams costs two and i for one prefer to keep it that way because there arnt enough ams certed folks as is.

[Intruder]

Originally posted by MilitantB0B
Good idea. I thought about the same thing today as I wondered why anyone would spend 3 points ona 5 man deliverer when they could spend 3 on the sunderer, wich is not only a transport, but a gunship in its own right. Being a fan of firepower, I always choose the sunderer, but there are several times when I would love to have a deliverer, but don't want to spend the cert points.


Another vehicle suggestion I have is to make the ANT a flying vehicle. I think more people would make ANT runs if the thing flew. It may sound kinda stupid, but even if it goes the same kph, its just more fun to fly, and you don't have to stick to the road. Just a suggestion. :D


True, but an ANT run should be a dangerous assingment, I know that when I am ANT'ing the fear creaps up and the adrenalin pumps, as soon as I see that WG shield I can breathe again. then the trip back!
Just the other day I was comming back with a full ANT, and not 5 meters from the base gate I got blown up, dieing is not the be all and end all in PS, due to respawn, but when you die in an ANT, you lose the cargo, and it makes staying alive more valuable, and less Zergling.

[Warborn]

Liberator won't cost 4 points.

As for the lack of lighter vehicles, when the vehicle requirements are reconfigured as the new base features are rolled out, you'll only be able to get advanced vehicles at a Technology Plant, or at a base which is connected to a Technology Plant via the lattice. No longer will owning a Technology Plant anywhere on the continent provide all allied bases with full vehicle requirements*, and if done well, it will make "worse" vehicles better, simply because advanced vehicles will be harder to acquire.

Oh, and to add a bit to this, the developers have plans to give incentive to fight outdoors. Once those incentives are in, lighter, faster vehicles will be much more common. AV weaponry isn't as effective when you're outdoors, and have the real danger of being run over, or simply not having a place to duck behind to avoid fire from the vehicles. When battles aren't completely focused on bases/towers, vehicles will come into their own.

[Doppler]

After reading the actual meat and potatoes of your acticle i have to disagree with you respectfully. The proliferation of AV weapons doesnt making fighting vehicles useless all vehicles seem to fall into two chatagories, with the the exception of the AMS and the ANT. There is either the fast, or the armored. Neither of these wants to stick around anyone place for a long time. If your ina vanguard or a prowler or a lasher or whatever and you sit somewhere and shell things, yes you will be killed byy AV weapons. Vehicles work great for things other then tranposrt. ALso bob i think if they made ants flying they'd have to make the ant cert cost points otherwise no one whould work anywhere.

[Nekota]

Running stealth squads for some time I've had alot of opportunity to use transports. I'd played with the Sunderer for a bit but, I figured we won't use half the seats, it's slow, not able to cross water, and although powerful with it's 75mm cannons, aren't as useful against a nimble aircraft as dual 20mm cannons are. So being the squad leader I opted to take the short bus (as we affectionately call it :D ) I haven't regreted it yet. The thing is obviously faster, more agile, flexible in it's ability to cross water (great for avoiding those mined bridges), still able to take quite a bit of punishment, and with both cannons firing can tear up infantry and what ever else we may find on the way to the back door.

[Bad Mojo]

Pet peeve of mine: "Friend" Outfits

Some friends who think it would be cool to start an outfit. That's it. They often are the guys in sanc asking for one more random person to help start the outfit. Maybe "Friend" isn't a good term, but I don't know what else to call them. But they end up being a group of ten people who aren't all on at the same time and who don't really want to grow their outfit. It's a waste, IMO. I think that an outfit isn't designed for small groups who can't field a full squad half the time. Outfits are a way to get some structure and organization to more than one squad worth of people. This means having a gal pilot or sunderer driver on at any given time. Sure, it's nice to have friend in the game and to be in control of your own outfit, but if all you do is have to form rabble squads to get anything done ... what good is the outfit over a random squad? Some of you can chat. Wee.

Why not, while still being friends, join a larger outfit? You lose the control of having your own outfit name, but really, has that every made a difference? You get access to many more people who have certs you don't. If it's a good outfit, there will be tons of cool people who take and give orders appropriatly. It's not easy finding a good outfit like that, but it pays off in the long run.

[Darksim]

I Drive a Deliverer. they are PERFECTLY worth 3 cert points as the guns are sweet. i also find myself hiding from that stupid vanguard by driving onto the island in the lake.


Sunders suck, there Ghetto, big slow and loud.

[Jarlo]

Most people who like sunder haven't driven them. They cannot off road, they are big, they are slow, they get stuck, they roll over, they cannot cross water. At least as Vanu we use deliverer alot (since nobody is a max anyway) and it comes in very useful. If the liberator or lodestar can be made at non-dropship plants I see them being used alot for transport in the future (aside from TR there is no other 3 person transports except liberator)

[Seer]

Warborn, I doubt that advanced vehicles being harder to aquire will prevent anyone from certing in them. I don't think that this will be the case anyway--just because you have to be connected to a tech plant doesn't change anything. They also plan to eliminate leapfrogging, so that you are more likely to be connected to the bases you own anyway. I'd like to see them change the game so that terrain, and by extension vehicles, are inherently valuable, but that isn't the state of the game. I don't see that happening any time soon. I'm also not talking about the effectiveness of combat vehicles as a whole, since I did say that they had a permanent place in the combat scheme of Planetside.

What I am talking about is moving a group of people from point a to point b. I'm just saying that some vehicles, due to their fairly niche status, should be grouped together under the same cert. The Sunderer and Deliverer are both the same type of vehicle, but each of them fills a specific niche that is, while valuable, fairly rare in a normal squad environment. It's the same with empire specific buggies--certifying in one of these death traps is suspect, since they require a technology plant and cost the same number of cert points as a tank. You all are right to say that on open terrain, vehicles have a distinct advantage, but Planetside is filled with things like trees, rocks, and even very steep hills that foil any direct fire weaponry, such as the 12 and 20mm chainguns and all the vanu vehicle weapons. Of course, it is harder to hit a moving vehicle, but what, exactly, is the effectiveness of an empire specific buggy that is in combat for 15 blinding seconds before having to retreat for 4 minutes to repair, assuming it gets out?

While this might be beside the point, if you all don't think that infantry AV weapons aren't in top form over terrain, you're wrong. That's exactly where they were meant to be used. Some, like the lancer, can even be used as standoff weapons against vehicles that are both moving at top speed and can't retaliate.

[Tryndamere]

Pet peeve of mine: "Friend" Outfits

Well gee. And here I thought this game was about fun.

I am one of those people who are hoping to make a "friend" outfit when a couple more RL buddies get the game, and why the fuk should you care?

I'll be inviting a couple select people I've met in PS, and we'll go around kicking ass and having fun. And no, I don't care if we don't dominate the world, we'll have many small victories which contribute to the success of our team. Last night for example, just myself and one friend "saved" the CC in a base 3 times, killed the guys attacking the generator twice and repaired it, took 4 towers, and racked up 100+ kills between the two of us.

The large outfits are mostly full of noobs who zerg the enemy. That ain't my cup of tea.

[Bad Mojo]

Originally posted by Tryndamere
I'll be inviting a couple select people I've met in PS, and we'll go around kicking ass and having fun.


My point was just that really small outfits might as well not be in an outfit when it comes to the impact of the entire server. That's all. Enjoy your chat.


The large outfits are mostly full of noobs who zerg the enemy. That ain't my cup of tea.

Uhm ... yeah. Ok.

[MilitantB0B]

Originally posted by Bad Mojo
Pet peeve of mine: "Friend" Outfits

Some friends who think it would be cool to start an outfit. That's it. They often are the guys in sanc asking for one more random person to help start the outfit. Maybe "Friend" isn't a good term, but I don't know what else to call them. But they end up being a group of ten people who aren't all on at the same time and who don't really want to grow their outfit. It's a waste, IMO. I think that an outfit isn't designed for small groups who can't field a full squad half the time. Outfits are a way to get some structure and organization to more than one squad worth of people. This means having a gal pilot or sunderer driver on at any given time. Sure, it's nice to have friend in the game and to be in control of your own outfit, but if all you do is have to form rabble squads to get anything done ... what good is the outfit over a random squad? Some of you can chat. Wee.

Why not, while still being friends, join a larger outfit? You lose the control of having your own outfit name, but really, has that every made a difference? You get access to many more people who have certs you don't. If it's a good outfit, there will be tons of cool people who take and give orders appropriatly. It's not easy finding a good outfit like that, but it pays off in the long run. I was one of the people who responded to the call of, "We need some people who want to join a outfit, you can leave after if you want!". I joined figureing I would leave afterward, but I didn't. I got talking with these guys, went on a couple of base captures, and realized that these dudes where pretty cool. Even though are squad are about 5 people big, on average, I still get about 20x more done in a 5 man outfit squad, then in a 10 man pickup squad. As far as a "friend outfit" not comparing to a big outfit, big outfits often treat their members like pawns. I enjoy a smaller, tighter nit place. And there isn't anything wrong with that. :D

[Bad Mojo]

Originally posted by MilitantB0B
Even though are squad are about 5 people big, on average, I still get about 20x more done in a 5 man outfit squad, then in a 10 man pickup squad. As far as a "friend outfit" not comparing to a big outfit, big outfits often treat their members like pawns. I enjoy a smaller, tighter nit place. And there isn't anything wrong with that. :D

I happen to be in a small outfit. On average there is about one full squad of active people on at night. I think there's a critical mass where an outfit starts to pay off (with something more than just outfit chat). I also think there's a certain ammount of overhead that grows as an outfit grows. Finding a happy balance is hard and the extremes, IMO, are ineffecient (not unfun or unrewarding). At a certain point, an outfit should be in an alliance, not just bigger.

As far as that related to the first post, having 70 cert points spread across 5 people is going to make some cert expendatures seem more expensive than having access to 280 cert points spread across 20 people.

[Seer]

The point of my original post was that the certifications should be valuable enough such that you wouldn't have to align with 20 other people and decide who will sacrifice their cert points to drive the bus. My point is: these certs should be self-evidently valuable, such that a relatively random grouping of people is likely to have an individual or two that has certed in them.

[Ivan_Ooze]

I've had bad personal experiences with huge outfits. They are nothing but a buncha zerglings. The outfit I was in just invited random people to make a massive army of outfit point farmers. I can't stand outfits like this. Personally, the outfits/clans/guilds I enjoy the most are the ones where to join you must first be interviewed and play with some of the officers for a while to show that you are a good player. This leads to a small outfit of good players who get along well. Not a gigantic outfit of random newbs with squadleaders who just say "Attack WP1!!!!" and then sit back drinking coke and rack up the outfit points.

[ajohn505]

I prefer small outfits, for most of the reasons similarly-minded people on this thread do. Generally higher quality cooperation and camraderie. I'm sure cliques exist in large outfits, but I wouldn't know... I got too bored in one to stick around and find out.

I personally think they should allow broader vehicle "classes" with each class being 5 or 6 cert points. In other words, make it a bit more painful up front to become certed in vehicles, but make the flexibility a little greater. Sunder/Vanguard/Galaxy/etc. in one class. Vanguard/Reaver/Deliverer in a class. Basilisk/Mosquito/Harasser in a class. Feedback?

[Warborn]

Warborn, I doubt that advanced vehicles being harder to aquire will prevent anyone from certing in them. I don't think that this will be the case anyway--just because you have to be connected to a tech plant doesn't change anything. They also plan to eliminate leapfrogging, so that you are more likely to be connected to the bases you own anyway. I'd like to see them change the game so that terrain, and by extension vehicles, are inherently valuable, but that isn't the state of the game. I don't see that happening any time soon. I'm also not talking about the effectiveness of combat vehicles as a whole, since I did say that they had a permanent place in the combat scheme of Planetside.

My point wasn't that people wouldn't cert in "advanced" vehicles because they're harder to get. My point was that people would cert in the less advanced vehicles because they'd be more useful, as you would not always be able to get an advanced vehicle.

As for the elimination of leapfrogging changing things, maybe, but maybe not. There is never a guarentee that you will have a clear path from your current base to an allied Tech Plant. In fact, there isn't even a guarentee that your side will even have a Tech Plant on that continent. This will make lesser vehicles somewhat more practical.

As I said though, I do not believe Harassers and other weaker vehicles will ever really be useful until there is much more outdoor combat. As long as battles are always focused on a base or a tower, where vehicles are at a distinct disadvantage, weak vehicles will always be fodder for heavier vehicles and AV infantry/MAXs.

And, as a side note, what I was getting at was that instead of grouping vehicles under one cert to make up for some of them being not very useful, that the not very useful vehicles should be changed to be useful. Or, that the game should change to allow said vehicles to be useful.