The Jackhammer

[Madcow]

This isn't a complaint about the Jackhammer, but over the weekend I noticed quite a bit that as the kills were scrolling that the Jackhammer was responsible for tons of the NC kills. We all know that the Jackhammer is very nice, but sometimes a dozen kills (from different people) in a row would all be from the Jackhammer. I'm curious if this is the kind of thing that will get the dev's attention and end up nerfing the Jackhammer. I'm not for a nerf, but I get the feeling it might be the victim of it's own success. The dev's will be checking the stats and see so many kills with one weapon and the nerf bat might come swinging.

[kerosene31]

People on the official boards are crying and screaming about it. Hopefully it does not get nerfed. It is a strong weapon from point blank range. However, you have to get in very close to use it. From that range, even our poor Lasher is almost as good.

I can deal with it most of the time. It is just in close in tower or CC fights where it really shines.

[PR24]

nOObHammer :lol:

[WritheNC]

I agree with Kerosene. Its an awesome weapon in close quarters, but there's little reason to use it out in the field. Its not really effective after 30 feet or so. Even though I've killed people from farther out, it takes a lot of ammo.

[Jarlo]

It is a great weapon, they shouldn't change it. Decrease the CoF on mini chaingun and increase dmg/speed on lasher.

[PR24]

Originally posted by Jarlo
It is a great weapon, they shouldn't change it. Decrease the CoF on mini chaingun and increase dmg/speed on lasher.

And decrese the rate of fire on the JH. If you want to keep the JH that strong it has to get the ROF decreased. As of right now people can not turn around 180 degress w/o being killed first.

[Tryndamere]

The Jackhammer is fine. Shouldn't be nerfed.

The Lasher shouldn't be buffed though either. In mass close-combat, a couple guys with lashers pump those balls out and absolutely destroy people.

[powdahound]

I always get OWNED by lashers. :\

[Jarlo]

Dude, the pulsar kills faster than lasher at close range.. sad but true.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Jarlo
It is a great weapon, they shouldn't change it. Decrease the CoF on mini chaingun and increase dmg/speed on lasher.

Bingo.

I'm now taking bets on whether this is going to happen in the near future. Odds are currently at 120-1.

[reaver101]

Weapons really shouldn't be nerfed at all. I feel that they should improve the other empires weapons. I mean really, they nerf the JackHammer then the minichaingun is to powerful. They nerf that then the lasher is the best. Unless the devs are very careful when nerfing then they could easily fall into this cycle and all of the weapons in the game will be doing like one point of damage and be firing one round a minute. That might be a little extreme but you get the idea. If this keeps up we will end up with a bunch of underpowered but very balanced weapons.

[Tenchiro]

I am sick of being killed by hammer users while defending a tower. It seems like everytime I round a corner and meet an NC I am dead before I can draw my own weapon. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't happen in like half a second.

[Jarlo]

I'm sick of getting killed by pounders I cannot even get a line of site to. But instead of whining I get a decimator and sacrifice myself to get 1-2 shots on them.

[Duffman]

Originally posted by WritheNC
there's little reason to use it out in the field. Its not really effective after 30 feet or so.


wait isnt that waht the TR were saying about the DP max and yet it got nerfed so i feel one coming for the JH.

[Cyber]

I couldn't disagree more with the arguement that it should be 'left alone' and the other weapons 'buffed up' to the same level of killing power. It's an arguement that is used to defend the jackhammer over and over on the official forums. People simply don't want thier cheese killing noobcannon to be nerfed.

Well, I don't want there to be 3 cheese killing noobcannons, the speed at which this weapon frequently kills in close combat is quite simply not fun to fight against and really not that fun to use. I picked up a heavy assault cert (mainly to use the jackhammer) and the thing feels cheap everytime I pick one up and start using it. You don't even need to use the secondary mode (in fact most NC should stop using it, that mode sucks) you just need to pound away at them with your more damaging, fast firing, unchanging cone of fire primary mode. With that mode there is not another weapon besides another jackhammer that is going to stand up to you and very few people who will manage to live for more then 2 seconds.

The jackhammer kills infantry faster then an Anti-Infantry MAX. AI Maxes should be hands down the most powerful anti-infantry weapons in game because they are 100% dedicated to killing infantry. No hacking, no repair, no medical, just killing infantry. Yet the jackhammer easily outshines any of them in this catagory. A reinforced jackhammer user with surge is has 10x the surviablity of a MAX. With a jackhammer, surge, engineering, regeneration and audio amp I stayed alive in an NC base, solo, vs 6 other guys hunting me down. I'd pop out, slaughter several of them before they could even fire back and when I finally took damage from one I'd sneak off to a secluded area of the base, regenerate my health and listen for them on audio amp.

I ended up finnally having to leave the base, return to the nearby tower, cap it, and get new equiptment because a MAX finally showed up and I was out of AP rounds from killing him the first time.

Lower the Jackhammer to the level of the Lasher, possibly look at making minor tweaks from that point to the MCG. But I really hope SOE doesn't decide to make 2 more overpowered cheese cannons to compete with this one. It's simply not a fun weapon to use or fight against imo.

[Onizuka]

no precious jackhammer! no nerfage here, it already is nerfed in distance, really bad. oh well they can nerf it if they want to but i dont think they will (i hope not)

[Cyber]

no nerfage here, it already is nerfed in distance

Surge + Cover = distance nearly irrelavent. You can close the distance so fast and so easily in most fights that the lack of range on the weapon is not as huge of a negitive as most people make it out to be. I never had any trouble closeing range when I just carried a rocklet and sweeper shotgun, and I don't have trouble now that I carry a jackhammer and rocklet quite often.

And once your indoors (and no matter what battle it is, it does eventually get to the point of indoors) lack of range is no longer an issue. There is no point in any base except possibly the basement of the dropship center were there is a sufficent distance in one of those rooms that the jackhammer won't be within it's effective range the second you see the enemy.

It's 'distance' issues are not enough to balance this weapon out. The MCG and Lasher both share these same issues and are not nearly the overpowered killing machines the jackhammer is.

[MilitantB0B]

I have recently made a NC heavy weapon character just to see if the JackHammer is as godly as alot of people say it is. I have to say, it is a good weapon, but not overpowered. From one end of a hallway to the other, the thing is practically useless and don't even think of taking one outside. I don't know about how bad the other HWs are nerfed, because I haven't played much with them, but I don't think the Jackhammer deserves a nerf. The jackahmmer is exactly how I would expect a HW to behave, to be excellent at killing people in certain circumstances (e.i. Indoors). If the other HW weapons don't fill that describition, they should be changed. Just my humble opinion.

[Led]

There is nothing you can nerf on the jackhammer that would not change it into a fancy sweeper shotgun. It only fires a little faster, and does a little more damage.

Nerf the hammer, you will have to nerf the sweeper, nerf the sweeper, you will have to nerf the rocklet, and so on and so forth.

I could really care less what they do to it, I just do not want another round of whining about some other crap 'n00b gun' in a month :p

[Crono]

I try to think of it as: "Ok, the Jackhammer pwns me in close combat, the Lasher pwns me in long range combat, and I pwn those with the Mini-Chaingun in heavy combat."

Also, remember back in the ol' FAQ? It explains the 'history' (if you will) of each empire's weapons. The VS "Use laser weapons and prefer high speed over brute fire power" the TR "Prefer massive amounts of fire power. They have traditional weapons with a very high rate of fire." The NC "Prefer massive damage over rate of fire or speed." It all seems to make sense if you think about it


FAQ (http://www.planetside-universe.com/content.php?p=sdFAQInfo) - Go to: 'What are the advantages of each empire?'

[Darken]

umm the lasher sux in all combat and this is from a guy with a couple hundred kills only using that gun, its simply not as good as a cycler, jackhammer, thumper or rocklet. Make it a lightning gun...

[Hamma]

In the end its the numbers that tell what will be nerfed.. NC will be their own downfall IMO as 90% of soldiers carry the jackhammer.

On a lighter note, I remember when the jackhammer was a COMPLETE POS :lol: I used to laugh and take it on with a pistol in early beta days ;)

[ajohn505]

I get pwned constantly by the mini chaingun, but you don't hear me whining about it. Suck it up, peeps... its working as intended. Check the official forums for dev comments on it.

[Happy lil Elf]

Jackhammer is fine. MCG needs a slight reduction in the rate it's cof expands. Lasher is already scary enough thank you very much. The end.

[sniper4evr26]

heres a thought: they could entirely remove the jackhammer from the game and make a new weapon. that way we wont end up with weapons that are nerfed over and over again untill they are all so weak they couldnt shoot through a wet piece of paper. i dont think anyone wants that. i dont exactly know what could replace the jackhammer, maybe a hand held 30mm cannon or flamethrower or something, i really dont know. but i think its a good alternative to nerfing everything down and listening to all the nOObs complaining and moaning and whining abou how the other cheese cannons are more powerful than theirs. i hope this gets to the devs.

[Led]

Funny that no one ever bitched about it in beta...

[Madcow]

Originally posted by Hamma
In the end its the numbers that tell what will be nerfed.. NC will be their own downfall IMO as 90% of soldiers carry the jackhammer.

That's exactly my point. It might end up a victim of it's own success. There's a reason that 2 out of 3 empires have precious few people spending the 4 cert points for heavy, and the last empire has an overwhelming majority doing so. Just stick around in a hot area with NC fighting either of the other 2 empires and watch the kill list. Over and over and over you see that Jackhammer symbol. If it wasn't being so overused by NC I think it might have gotten a pass from the devs, but I'll be shocked if something isn't done as things currently stand. Maybe they'll punch the other heavies up, but it will probably be a quicker fix to nerf the Jackhammer.

[Led]

The devs honestly think the hammer is fine. So I doubt they will change it just because the community is going on a binge about it. I am sure, however, that tuning up the other heavy weapons is in their plans.

Chaingun is an easy fix.

I have no idea what they might do to the lasher tho :p

[Arakiel]

The jackhammer's only problem right now is the range. It's actually fairly effective at medium range, which really shouldn't be the case. Honestly, it's a better mid-range weapon than the pulsar, but, we'll not go into that.

[Cyber]

Check the official forums for dev comments on it.

The devs honestly think the hammer is fine.

I dunno what official forums you have been reading, but I can only find ONE dev quote on the jackhammer.

And that's from Sporkfire stating he had 'passed on the feedback on the jackhammer to the design team' and nothing more.

There is no dev post I can find that they said it's on target for how they wanted it.

At this point I agree with Hamma. The overwhelming number of NC using this weapon will be it's own downfall, because the devs will nerf it to make it less attractive to get some players to cert in and use other weapons.

It's the same reason you saw reavers lose some of thier armor effectiveness and the automated base turrets appearing. Too many reavers flying around. I think they may have had a stealth nerf on thier rockets as well since I'm having far less trouble running and hiding from them when being hit then before.

The huge numbers of NC using the jackhammer + the number of TR/VS looting and using it as often as possible will be the downfall of this weapon.

And I can't say I'm going to miss it, I'll be happy to see it retuned.

[JakeLogan]

Well I don't know about jackhammer (All I do know is that it kills alot of people very fast) or the lasher ( I don't see enough VS to really have an opinoin) but the mini chain gun sucks all it is is a cycler with 2 clips and a little faster rate of fire and a bigger COF (and don't tell me to use it in bursts because it is a chain gun which is meant to be held down and let loose) and that is about it. The Mini chain gun is a waste of 4 cert points only thing it does is look cool. IMO what needs to happen is lower the MCGs COF.

[Jarlo]

I would be pretty happy if the lasher energy balls actually went the same speed as a thrown grenade--

Does it seem silly that balls of energy move slower than a thrown object? Maybe its just me.

[Skitz]

Originally posted by Jarlo
It is a great weapon, they shouldn't change it. Decrease the CoF on mini chaingun and increase dmg/speed on lasher.

Yes! He hit it right on the money! I have used all 3 weapons (I don't use any of them anymore, infiltration is much more fun :)), and that would be the ideal fix.

[1024]

Originally posted by powdahound
I always get OWNED by lashers. :\

same here

[MrVulcan]

Ok, My thoughts...

Its off, if you think that they are all that, pick on up and USE it for a bit, try to run up to a tower of base with heavy fighting, see if you get anywhere close to kill range :p

Also, The hammer costs 4 certs, thus it should be able to take ANY other non 4 cert weapon out 1-1, think about it :p

Now, the hammer is USLESS past a few feet away from your target, leading most of those who use it to get surge
but, if you have surge, you dont have health regen, zoom, shield, etc etc, you can jsut get in range faster

If you are shooting a guy with a hammer as he run up to you, he will be dead or almost dead by the time he reaches you.

The hammer is GREAT for the turn corner and run into someone situation that you can get in bases, but do you know how many times I have died running in the open parts of the base (near downstares cc, etc), or outside getting to the base?

A pistol can take a hammer out at a distance, ive seen it done

IMO, the Chain gun needs a slightly smaller cof, and the lasher needs to be able to "lash" with more dmg

The hammer is fine the way it is *unlike how it was in beta :lol: that was sad*

[Cyber]

[quote]Also, The hammer costs 4 certs, thus it should be able to take ANY other non 4 cert weapon out 1-1, think about it [/qupte]

No. Devs have stated time and time again that they didn't want to make winning or losing dependent on levels. Which means just cause you spent 4 (or 6 depending on how you look at it) on your weapon doesn't mean your supposed to get a license to be able to completely own every other 'less costly' weapon.

Should it be more effective yes. Should it make it so that it's near pointless to even think about fighting with any other weapon in close quarters? No.

And don't give me this "it's hard to get in range" crap. I've used the sweeper and the jackhammer. Getting into it's effective range is a trivial task with Surge.

[Yogi]

Originally posted by Led
Funny that no one ever bitched about it in beta...

It sucked for 95% of beta, that's why.

[Nitsch]

It's kinda funny though when you are in a fight and see more vanu using jackhammers than lashers. An outfitmate of mine uses jackhammers almost exclusively and gets tells from NC bitching at him for not using his own empire's weapons.

[SpacemanSpiff]

Originally, I thought I could actually contribute to this particular thread, but I feel that Cyber has pretty much covered all of my concerns and experiences. Surge + Jackhammer = a situation that distance does not hinder. Ultimately, the base caps are determined by in-close quarters. This is how the outcome of battles end. Therefore, it can be argued that weapons that are designed for extreme proficiency for in-close quarters is a weapon that has an advantage over all others. The evolution of Planetside is sometimes more fascinating than the game itself. ;)

[Nitsch]

The NC have great distance (gauss and pheonix) and awsome short range weapons (jackhammer)... so a reinforced grunt can use both and not have the limitations that other empires do of having to try to fight from a certain distance.

But as we all know...it's short range that wins or loses battles, fortunately almost every NC carries a Jackhammer so they are not hard to loot after every battle.

[Ducimus]

All this arguing, and ill bet my bottom dollar, if the Jackhammer was a TR or VS weapon (or even common pool), all the NC who so adamatly defend it would be saying its overpowered like just about everyone else who has to deal with the buisness end of it.

[ColdbringeR]

People seem to be ignoring the fact that the Jackhammer requires four certification points to use. If they brought it down to three, then by all means, nerf away. As it is now though, you get what you pay for. I often feel that the reaver is overpowered, but when i think about whet they have to pay to use it, my opinion changes.

I've seen people try to complain that distance is no issue with the jackhammer, when you use surge. I'd like to counter this argument with saying that if you use surge against someone with a jackhammer, it is quite hard for them to hit you, due to the slowish rate of fire. Whether you're merely using surge to keep your distance, or to circle around them. Surge helps both sides greatly, making this argument quite pointless.

I've also seen people claim that they cannot turn around fast enough to counter it. If the person using the jackhammer is close enough to you to kill you before you can turn around, then you'd probably be dead anyway with any of the other heavy weapons. Chaingun unloading into your back? Yeah, i'm sure you'd be able to turn around just in time to see the gleam in your attacker's eyes as he saws you in half. ;)

Distance is still (and always will be) a major issue with the jackhammer. Most people don't realize how many enemies carrying jackhammers they've probably killed from a distance. Jackhammer vs. Sniper anyone?

I do have an idea that would make all three of these heavy weapons more balanced though. I think the running speed of someone carrying a heavy weapon should be decreased slightly. Even when it's not equipped. This would make all of these weapons a bit more stationary, and it would help prevent some of the the annoying cases of people carrying any of these weapons just surging around and raping everyone.

[ColdbringeR]

Originally posted by Ducimus
All this arguing, and ill bet my bottom dollar, if the Jackhammer was a TR or VS weapon (or even common pool), all the NC who so adamatly defend it would be saying its overpowered like just about everyone else who has to deal with the buisness end of it.

And i have fought against jackhammers tons of times as well. I was playing as BR6 Vanu (the empire that won yesterday ;)) on Markov with a freakin' Punisher and some grenades yesterday against NC, and this is how it almost always went...

Me vs Jackhammer at 20+ yards away = Me most likely winning.
Me vs Jackhammer at close range = Me definitely losing.

And i've played against Terran and Vanu enough to add these...

Me vs Chaingun at 20-50 yards away = Me most likely losing.
Me vs Chaingun at close range = Me almost definitely losing.

(assuming it's not some idiot who can't time his projectiles right)
Me vs Lasher at 20-50 yards away = Me most likely losing.
Me vs Lasher at close range = Me most likely losing.

If anything, my worst odds overall were against the chaingun. I don't complain though, because i can do other stuff that they can't, due to four cert points i saved by not buying those weapons.

http://stats.planetsidegaming.com/3/478218/stats.png
(56 of those kills are NC)

[Tryndamere]

Close in fights are not the only thing that determines who captures a base. That is way oversimplified.

The easiest way to capture a base is to secure respawn points for your side, while denying the enemy theirs.

That's it. Take the local towers, hunt down their AMS's, destroy their generator/spawn tubes, etc.

There are a thousand ways to achieve said objectives. If the side with more Jackhammers always won, the NC would claim victory every time, and this simply doesn't happen.

Stop whining people~

[Myrnyyk]

Jackhammer doesn't need a nerf. If you nerf it, NC are pretty much worthless inside. One empire already has that problem, why create another one?

Inside battles aren't the only aspect of this game, but they are a very, very important part of it. Once enemy soldiers can spawn in a hacked facility (which I am for), it will become even more important.

[Malodorous]

On the subject of Heavy Assault....I think the Jackhammer is definitely the best inside....hands down. But outside, the Lasher really rocks. The Chaingun.......well, it makes a lot of noise anyway. So maybe it is good for annoying the other guys to death. Beyond that...it sucks.

[Darken]

Turn the Lasher into the Lighting gun from quake. Boom its fixed, its effective and if you suck you will get tons of grief points.

[Led]

If they would change it to a PPC, THAT would kick ass.

BZZZT

hehehe

[kidriot]

if you're going to nerf a weapon based merely on the number of people that use it then why hasn't the gauss or cycler taken a nerf? why aren't you talking about the majority of people using a pheonix or striker or lancer?

quoting a percentage of people w/out hard data is merely a guess.

say, the jackhammer gets "adjusted." and "all the NC" that were using jackhammer turn to rocklet and thumper for indoor fights. are we going to begin bitching about those weapons?

an infantry is very simple to kill. a pre-adjustment DC or Pounder max was very tough to kill. especially the pounders with the larger splash damage and the old DC that pierced armor. those were not working as intended.

it's a heavy assault weapon. it ought to be mowing people down. the lasher and chaingun need to be given a boost.

the way I look at it, no ONE weapon ought to have the power to hold entire squads off. and I say entire squads cos 3-4 newbs running around don't count. atm, there is NO weapon that has the power to stop entire squads of people w/the close exception of a pounder bouncing grenades around.

it's funny and ironic to see the same people claiming a zerg is a tactic bitching about another zerg using a weapon. let's bitch about the gauss and cycler. I see entirely too many people using that weapon. (because skill is not a factor, right?)

[OneManArmy]

I dont understand why people bitch at all, it takes all the fun out of the game, its a good thing the devs ignore most of the crap they see. because otherwise we'd all end up with knifes and nothing else.


and WTF is this zerg bullshit? what else can you do when you have the sheer number of players that PS does?

[Kaikou]

yea, um....

I........hate.......the.......jackhammer......

I would hope it does get nerfed just because 90% (if not more) of the NC use it. Watch the kill chat scroll up in an NC battle, you'll see what I mean.

[OneManArmy]

good i hate teh lancer the lasher the striker the cycler the pounder max the dual cycler max the reaver the sniper rifle the rocklet

can we nerf those too please? :rolleyes:

[Kyler]

Jackhammer requires a nerf or the other Heavy wepoans needs to be on par with it, period.

The number of certs used to acquire it dosent justify the overwhelming advantage the weapon provides.

The Dev has said it before, the level dosent matter, a level 1 guy can kill a level 20. Being higher level = more certs = more versatility.

Anyone in his right might (unlike the protective NC) can and does see the overpower this weapon has. 90% of the NC uses it and for a good reason: if they can get in close quaters, they own. When you are up to a point where the other races are picking up and using your weapons, there is something wrong.
I got killed plenty of times with different weapons, Chainguns, thumpers, Phoenixes but nothing like the amount of time i die to a jackhammer.

I saw a stupid quote about "if they nerf it, we are gonna suck", that is just retarded, that one weapon = your whole race.. the TR were saying the same thing on their MAXe's nerfs, they still are pretty efficient, as heavy assault today, it took me 3 runs with a thumper to take out a MAX in a CC, i unloaded on him everytime and never had time to reload (others also took a few shots at him). Before you flame saying i got no skills, looks my stats below, i can hold my own quite well

Bottom line is: the races are supposed to be balanced and they are not. The AV weapons are pretty nice on each side, the Heavy weapons are not. Like Hamma said, this is the kind of stats the Dev can get and all of them using it will be their downfall. I am certain they can see the numbers but not sure how to deal with it: nerf it or nerf the other 2..?

[FliggenMan]

Guys, the Jackhammer is overpowered because the RoF is too high. It kills Reinforced in 3 hits . You can't have that strong of a shot, and still have it fire at the rate it does. No way. And on the issue, of how it sucks at a distance, how do expect people to combat the NC inside if the Jackhammer stays the way it does? Sooner or later it boils down to battling inside, so what will the Vanu or TR do? Especially the Vanu, because the miniCG isn't bad at all, in my eyes it's pretty balanced. The lasher is underpowered, and the Jackhammer is overpowered. The cycler is too good indoors, and that makes it too versatile. The Pulsar has either too much recoil,which the Vanu are supposed to have a large absence of, or no kill zone like any of the others. The gauss is fine, needs a bit more of a punch and a bit lessened RoF to make it more "New Conglomerate-Like".





good i hate teh lancer the lasher the striker the cycler the pounder max the dual cycler max the reaver the sniper rifle the rocklet

can we nerf those too please?

we are not asking that we take all its power away, we are just asking that it be balanced with the other weapons. cuz it's not, and i think people are going to notice it sooner or later, because dev teams play the game as well. i've seen many things be changed in the game that were talked about on the forums more than others, and this is one of them.

But outside, the Lasher really rocks.
:stupid: :stupid: :stupid: Lol. Not.

[WritheNC]

Definitely 90% of NC does not use the jackhammer. You're taking it a bit extreme.

It may seem like that because JH kills will naturally be higher in close quarters combat, and large scale skirmishes.

In small group situations, its still balanced. The only real factor between two opposing infantry is who spots who first and gets off the first shot.

If you think surge + hammer is all that bad you're not smart enough to use surge properly.

Hell, lets nerf Surge. Problem solved, right?

Edit: Oh I almost forgot. You don't really have the right to bitch about the jackhammer unless you lose consistently to it while using weapons close to it. I've had people using supressors telling me they would have killed me if I wasn't using a jackhammer. Rofl...right buddy.

[Led]

People seem to forget that sweepers also kill reinforced in 3 shots :P Hell they completely strip all your armor off in TWO.

[OneManArmy]

look at all of you!!!! If you die when you get close THEN DONT GET CLOSE TO IT!!!! just dont scream nerf because you suck. fuck I think we all should have just have knifes only, that way no one could complain.

personally i dont care if they nerf the jackhammer, if they do I'll just use the sweeper its the same damn thing. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Winged_Nazgul]

I was really wondering where you guys get this figure of 90% of NC uses the JH. I don't use it myself and haven't except for maybe 1 day during the first week of retail. IMO, it just wasn't flexible enough for my needs and I really do think the Heavy Assault cert is probably the biggest waste of 4 certs around (6 if you count MA). JH is the cream of a crop of pretty limited weaponry IMO.

But that's just me.

So I went and dug around my own outfit for some hard numbers. Synpax from the SOE forums came up with a way of extracting outfit data from myplanetside.com and putting the results in .xls format. I asked him to do it for Sturmgrenadier, unarguably the largest NC outfit on the busiest server. I wanted to see if the 90% was even close.

Out of 304 members, guess how many had Heavy Assault?

66. Wasn't even close to 90%. SOE has the hard data as well. You can rely on your gut feelings and misconceptions all you want. Just don't be too disappointed if the devs don't.

[FliggenMan]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
look at all of you!!!!


getting close to it is inevitable. it reigns indoors, other than MAX units. it should not. and u know that its strength combined with the RoF is no match against the sweeper, cuz ive tried fighting it with one. no comparison.

[Diviant]

I'd just like to point out that EVERY person who is for the JH nerf is either TR or VS, and neither of them bitch about each others' weapons. Either everyone hates NC, or the JH is really overpowered. I myself, who am NC, think the Hammer is overpowered. And this 90% of NC uses JH thing, well, based on the battle I just had, out of over 100 people, only about 5 people did NOT have a jackhammer on them. So, here's just an opinion from an NC who DOES think the hammer is overpowered.

[Ducimus]

Lately ive been detaching myself from this argument and just observing it. Threads like this are almost a case study of human nature. What facinates me zealous nature of NC players when it comes to the JH.

Of this i'm certain:
1. Everyone here is biased.

2. Nobody here will ever change anyone else's mind on the subject. Ever.


I have to say that avoiding a person with a JH is damn near impossible. The argument to stay out of their range, when it comes to base/tower capping is about as air tight as a submarine with a screen door. If there is an effective counter to the JH in any typical base encounter i think it has yet to be found if one exists at all.

[ZionsFire]

Ummm yeah for all u stupid people hmmmmm let me think.............
ITS A FRIGGIN TRI BARRELED SHOTGUN IDIOTS!
u scream for nerf we all scream for nerf.:mad:

[Winged_Nazgul]

Originally posted by Diviant
So, here's just an opinion from an NC who DOES think the hammer is overpowered.

You'd be a lot more convincing if you didn't have this as your empire of choice:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nazgul64/images/diviant.jpg

[Madcow]

This whole thread has turned into a fascinating sociology experiment. NC folk defending the Jackhammer tooth and nail that it's definitely balanced and fine with throwaway comments about how it wouldn't bother them at all if it was nerfed. This seems to have struck quite a nerve. I still think they should improve the other 2 heavies, but it seems pretty obvious there is a balance issue and that our friendly NC folk are working on a raging case of denial. I don't think 90% of the NC are throwing the Jackhammer around, but I do know that last night I lost a battle to somebody with a punisher and I was ecstatic because it was the first time I'd been killed by NC in a few days that wasn't:
Reaver
Sniper
Infil (knife)
There's an awful lot of guns out there that I just wasn't seeing. Maybe not everybody that is out there is carrying a Jackhammer, but the majority of the kills for NC come on the business end of one. You say don't be disappointed if the devs don't notice what we notice. I say don't be disappointed when they do.

[Winged_Nazgul]

I personally won't be disappointed if they do decide to nerf it. I have already gone on record as saying it's not the gun for me. I can get more kills faster in the same area the JH excels in with a Cycler. But I will also now go on record as saying that if the devs are sincere in saying they rely on hard data over fan whining that they will not nerf the JH.

[Revolver]

Originally posted by Jarlo
It is a great weapon, they shouldn't change it. Decrease the CoF on mini chaingun and increase dmg/speed on lasher. I agree. I feel sorry youy TR have to put up with the CoF on your Mini-Chaingun. I'm in favor of shrinking it, or at least slowing it's reticule growth rate. As for the lasher, the projectiles could move a little faster. Not like Pulsar fast, but faster.

[Arakiel]

Originally posted by Led
Funny that no one ever bitched about it in beta...

Interestingly, the striker and the jackhammer were both pretty awful weapons up until about the last 2 weeks of beta.

Sony, as is wont for them, overcompensated a bit. Surprise surprise ;p

[Led]

Nothing ever changed with the striker except fixing the lock bug...

I still believe the hammer in its current form is fine. Other heavy weapons are obviously lacking.

I still get my ass owned when caught in a situation disadvantageous to my weaponry loadout. My skill as a player is not merely twitch, it is engineering encounters to be as advantageous to me as possible.

The problem is, there is no way to really create such a situation using the other heavy weapons. This is not the hammers fault... the chaingun is supposed to be viable at a longer range than the hammer. The lasher is supposed to be better at range than the hammer, and better closer up than the chaingun.

Again I state that the other heavy weapons need fixing, not the hammer itself... nerfing of the hammer will require changing the sweeper. And then the rocklet...

This nerf wave needs to be stopped, now, before it gets insanely out of hand, as what happened to DAoC. Every damn patch is some stupid insane readjustment :p

[OneManArmy]

look you nerf the jackhammer then you have to nerf the lasher, then the cycle of nerfs will start all over again with a terran weapon, then etc..etc... :rolleyes:

[tazz]

the jackhammer is a fine, it has never bothered me. the only people who seem to really care about nerfing or unnerfing the jackhammer are noobs or ppl who get 1kill per death.

the jackhammer is designed for indoor, so my tip for you in not being killed by it is to keep moving and to use the AMP. 90% of teh time u will came out with only a scratch.

The key is to keep moving, ive seen to many ppl just stop and shoot, they are the first to go.

[TheRegurgitator]

the jh is a very very fair weapon in my opinion i dont use it becuase its not my kind of gun i prefer longer range but ive only been killed by it about 1-3 times by people that actually THINK and loot the bodies of the soldiers with those

[Ducimus]

As per stopping the nerf wave. It won't. Its already been set in motion. This is Sony where talking about here. Whos the developer? Don't tell me verant? Even if its not verant, their all under the same publishing roof.

Once the nerf bat swings into motion, it won't stop until we're all devoid of anything that was a cutting edge. In a way, it bothers me, that its so, and in away, i really dont give a damn. Truthfully, every nerf that NC get (id say VS but they're in sincere need of a boost) ill feel that much less angry about any nerf to my own faction. I'd expect nothing less from an NC player. The nature of nerfs in this game, is a bit more on a personal level.

Past MMO games were RPGs. Nerfs only effect people you worked with, in this game, nerfs effect the people your against, not with, or your ability to compete. Nobody likes nerfs in a game like this. Its like getting the refferee to change the rules in the middle of a major sporting event. Bitter resentment is only a bit natural here given the nature of the game. I understand that, but i wont neccessarlly show that understanding when Players of opposing faction doing actions or posts tantamount to shoving your face in the dirt, or rubbing salt in the wound; which only makes ill will worse.

I understand why NC players say its not overpowered. Reguardless of honest or intent or not, its all about self interest. I'm sure some geinuanly beleive its not overpowered while others like myself are totally convinced of it. Nothing will ever change either position im sure. Heres a thought though, in any typical base capping scenario, what do you suppose the averange NC infantry with a Jackhammers kill to death ratio vs enemy infantry is? I'll bet its pretty damn good.

[Cyber]

the jackhammer is a fine, it has never bothered me. the only people who seem to really care about nerfing or unnerfing the jackhammer are noobs or ppl who get 1kill per death.

Look at my sig and tell me again how I'm a noob.

I think the jackhammer is in need of a nerf and I become more convinced of it everytime I log into the game. Tonight in a huge VS/TR battle on Amerish there were several times when even though there were no NC around you ran into VS or TR guys wielding jackhammers to great effect. In fact at one point a whole squad of VS dropped onto a tower I was defending, out of the 8 infantry, 6 had jackhammers. None had thier empire specific heavy assault gun. 1 was an infiltrator and one was a MAX.

Extreme case? Yes, but there were still several times for the rest of the night on Amerish were you'd suddenly run into a VS or TR wielding a jackhammer for no apparent reason. It's one thing to see them in a TR/NC fight since they're so easy to loot. But seeing them pulled out in a TR/VS fight is kinda silly. :)

That said tonight was one of the most enjoyable nights of PS I've had in a long time. There were very few NC on Amerish and for the most part it was just a big fight between the TR and VS without all the frustration of a thousand guys with the same weapon. Arguably this battle showed just how close the VS / TR are to balance. It went back and forth between Cetan and Irkala all night, they'd take one, we'd push one to neutral and take it. Musical bases? Ya, but it was a ton of fun.

It used to be that fighting the NC was the most fun for me since you knew they didn't think they had underpowered weapons. But at this point as far as I and it seems alot of TR are concerned the NC can rot. They've pushed in a taken large chunks of our backyard everyday the past few days. Yet, you go to the sanctuary and is anyone organizing a push to take them back? Nope, they're calling for reinforcements on Amerish.

Cause it's fun there. At this point until something changes with the jackhammer I think I'll be more actively seeking out places were I'm likely to only find myself fighting the Vanu. It's fun, and not cause it's easy (it's not) but because it involves more then one weapon being used. If the NC want our backyard they can have it, I certainly won't be lineing up to oppose them.

[ColdbringeR]

Are people trying to claim that the jackhammer is bad because everyone is using it? :p I think it would be a pretty messy site if every Terran were using the Chaingun as well.

Give it a break people. I've been playing Vanu all day yesterday and today, and the jackhammer has not given me any more problems than the Chaingun has. You can ask kidriot about that. ;) Me and him were fighting at Gunuku and i held my own with a lousy Punisher.

The chaingun is freakin lethal at close range and not that bad at distance. The jackhammer is slightly more lethal at close range and worthless at distance. I'd say they're pretty freakin' balanced.

If anything needs a tweaking of some sort, it's the Lancer... That thing is jsut not cutting it in my opinion...

[Cyber]

The chaingun is freakin lethal at close range and not that bad at distance. The jackhammer is slightly more lethal at close range and worthless at distance.

Sorry, as far as I'm concerned you've completely invalidated your opinion in this one line alone.

Chaingun "not bad at distance" ? LOL. At it's narrowest the COF isn't going to hit anyone much more then 50m away. And in that case it's bursting slower then the Cycler. That is no where near "not bad at distance" it ranks up there as "horrible at distance" to the same degree as the jackhammer. Except as you yourself say, the hammer is overpowered and more lethal at close range.

[Diviant]

Originally posted by Winged_Nazgul
You'd be a lot more convincing if you didn't have this as your empire of choice:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/nazgul64/images/diviant.jpg



So sue me, I'm lazy. I play as NC. Note the NC Sig.

[ColdbringeR]

Originally posted by Cyber
Sorry, as far as I'm concerned you've completely invalidated your opinion in this one line alone.

Chaingun "not bad at distance" ? LOL. At it's narrowest the COF isn't going to hit anyone much more then 50m away. And in that case it's bursting slower then the Cycler. That is no where near "not bad at distance" it ranks up there as "horrible at distance" to the same degree as the jackhammer. Except as you yourself say, the hammer is overpowered and more lethal at close range.

Maybe you need to learn not hold down the fire button when you're shooting at range? It's called bursting, and unfortunately you cannot do it with the jackhammer. At 30m away you'd be lucky to do even one sixith of the damage with the jackhammer as it does at close range. The chaingun can still be quite effective at this range though. At 50m though, i agree. They're both quite worthless.

[Jarlo]

Everyone agrees the hammer is the best hvy assault, and that is fine with me. But I, and many others, would MUCH prefer to see the lasher and chaingun boosted instead of a jackhammer nerf.

I'm anxiously awaiting the dev's thoughts on vanu weapons-- which was promised in the "near future".

[Happy lil Elf]

I wish there was a way to force everyone in this argument to make a character of both opposing factions, do VR training, get heavy assault cert for their two opposing factions and spend a night, hell 3 nights, using it before coming here and posting anything about how unbalanced anything is.

I've played with the MCG, enjoyed it, and it does need it's CoF reduced. I play with the Jackhammer, enjoy it, and it's fine. I'll let you know how the lasher feels after I play around with it some more, haven't spent enough time to form an opinion on it yet. Then again that hasn't stopped anyone here ;)

[JonnyK]

I just got rid of my jackhammer cert and replaced it wiht a scatter max. but i'm pretty sure i'll get the jackhammer back when i get up to higher certs

[WritheNC]

I wish there was a way to force everyone in this argument to make a character of both opposing factions, do VR training, get heavy assault cert for their two opposing factions and spend a night, hell 3 nights, using it before coming here and posting anything about how unbalanced anything is.

That's a good idea. I think I'll play Vanu and use a Lasher after work.

I'd rather see the Lasher and Chaingun get beefed up as opposed to nerfing the Jackhammer. I mean, if the nerfs keep up, you'll lose the advantage of first strike. You'll be running to a base, and see an enemy who doesn't notice you yet. You take cover, fire, and start shooting him. He's running for cover and makes it because all the weapons have been nerfed. :(

Like I said, its still about the initiative. I'd say 75% of my kills are because I had the option to fight. In big base battles I take cover behind trees, and pick anyone off with my gauss that thinks this is UT2k3 and is running, jumping, and shooting. If you get off the first shot, you win.

There have been many, many times where I'm in a base with a JH, and someone with any gun gets off the first shot. Unless they really really suck, I'm dead. That's the way it should be.

I think the jackhammer has a psychological impact as well that gives it a definite edge. It makes TR/VS think; don't think, just shoot!!!!

Well I'll play Vanu tonight and see if I'm right lol.

[Ludio]

I think the main argument of those saying that the jackhammer should be nerfed, instead of improving the others is that at the moment almost all the NC carry jackhammers. It is only one cert but you find that the majority of kills are being made by it, obviously this means it is overpowered compared to the other NC certs. It doesnt matter how it compares to VS or TR heavy weapons, one cert should not be dominant. If the other heavy weapons were boosted then soon heavy weapons would be a required cert for anyone serious about indoor combat. This is where a lot of the combat takes place, but 80% of the people you face should not carry the same weapon, that shows that you can kill people so much faster with it than any other weapon that everyone is using it. It does take 4 certs and so it should be 'better' than most other weapons, but it should not be the only weapon people carry. When I see the gear of the top NC it is almost exclusively Jackhammer and Decimator, Jackhammer for grunts and Decimator for maxes. It shouldn't have such a dominant place among the weaponry, it should be a good weapon, especially for indoor combat, but other weapons should be under consideration. At the moment that isnt the case. To look at another 'good' weapon, the Lancer, you see that a lot of kills are made by it, but you never see the huge runs of nothing but Jackhammer kills, it is good and a lot of people use it, but they use other stuff too.

[Ducimus]

Originally posted by Cyber
Look at my sig and tell me again how I'm a noob.

I think the jackhammer is in need of a nerf and I become more convinced of it everytime I log into the game. Tonight in a huge VS/TR battle on Amerish there were several times when even though there were no NC around you ran into VS or TR guys wielding jackhammers to great effect. In fact at one point a whole squad of VS dropped onto a tower I was defending, out of the 8 infantry, 6 had jackhammers. None had thier empire specific heavy assault gun. 1 was an infiltrator and one was a MAX.

Extreme case? Yes, but there were still several times for the rest of the night on Amerish were you'd suddenly run into a VS or TR wielding a jackhammer for no apparent reason. It's one thing to see them in a TR/NC fight since they're so easy to loot. But seeing them pulled out in a TR/VS fight is kinda silly. :)

That said tonight was one of the most enjoyable nights of PS I've had in a long time. There were very few NC on Amerish and for the most part it was just a big fight between the TR and VS without all the frustration of a thousand guys with the same weapon. Arguably this battle showed just how close the VS / TR are to balance. It went back and forth between Cetan and Irkala all night, they'd take one, we'd push one to neutral and take it. Musical bases? Ya, but it was a ton of fun.

It used to be that fighting the NC was the most fun for me since you knew they didn't think they had underpowered weapons. But at this point as far as I and it seems alot of TR are concerned the NC can rot. They've pushed in a taken large chunks of our backyard everyday the past few days. Yet, you go to the sanctuary and is anyone organizing a push to take them back? Nope, they're calling for reinforcements on Amerish.

Cause it's fun there. At this point until something changes with the jackhammer I think I'll be more actively seeking out places were I'm likely to only find myself fighting the Vanu. It's fun, and not cause it's easy (it's not) but because it involves more then one weapon being used. If the NC want our backyard they can have it, I certainly won't be lineing up to oppose them.


Funny thing is, ive noticed similar feelings from people on my own server. I remember one comment, "looks like its time for the happy happy NC zerg hour". Not that we don't do that ourselves, but i think we threw up a sort of half hearted resistance. Once NC showed up, i'd rather go elsewhere. I think others felt the same way. Eventually we did, leaving all the bases we just capped unguarded. Outdoor bridge type battles are fun, but when it comes to bases, id sooner everyone just walk away and let them have it for zilcho exp. Last night we did just that, no one really cared to fight them.

[Tryndamere]

Same thing has been happening on Markov. I've spent the last couple days on Amerish fighting against the VS and it is soooo much more fun then fighting the legions of Jackhammer rushing forward zerglings.

TR v VS has led to some great battles that last for hours as several bases switch back and forth, and bodies line the fields. Meanwhile NC has taken over Forseral, but no one cares because they're having too much fun.

I have actually been arguing against nerfing the Jackhammer before, but laying it out like that about how its just not fun fighting an army of shotgun toting kamikazes. NC armies I've fought generally use 90% brute force, 10% tactics.

[Robot]

Originally posted by Tryndamere
I have actually been arguing against nerfing the Jackhammer before, but laying it out like that about how its just not fun fighting an army of shotgun toting kamikazes. NC armies I've fought generally use 90% brute force, 10% tactics.

Just cycler spam them from a long ways away

that's how i got owned during beta, anyways. but, yeah, i think the "junkhammer" could use at least a tiny nerfing. maybe decreasing the re-fire rate/decreasing the range?

[Ghost06]

Originally posted by Tryndamere
NC armies I've fought generally use 90% brute force, 10% tactics.

Considering that the specialty of the NC is brute force, shouldn't the Jackhammer be a little brutish up close? Come on, SOE is comparing the weapon to a Jackhammer; used to break cement, asphault, sidewalks, and etc. Think there's a similarity?

... erhm...

What ever happened to the TR posts? NERF THE POUNDER!! IT'S UBER SHOTTER NADERR MAX!! WHO'S WITH ME? PETITION SOE!!! Man... those were the days :rolleyes:

[MrVulcan]

Originally posted by Led
If they would change it to a PPC, THAT would kick ass.

BZZZT

hehehe

:lol:
Now that would be sweet
Or, what if our guass had a higher end capacitor for more realistic gauss punch... :p

Now, if you take the Hammer (4 certs), even a squad with hammers and go vs the TR dual pounder max (3 cert) , at ANY range... um... ya, punder wins :p
But im not calling for a nerf, it is the pounder's job to kill inf en mass

Chain gun vs Hammer at a range, even if the hammer guy charges it with surge the chain gun will still win, same with the lasher

Now i am not saying that the chain gun and lasher dont need help, they do, decrease the chain gun cof some, and increase lasher "lash" dmg,

People, up close, there is nothing that will have the power of the jackhammer, ever, nor should it.

Even the other shotgun has more power than any other weapon upclose, you can kill reinforced in 3 shots jsut as fast as the hammer with 3 shots, and at the same range. Sure, it doesnt kill maxs as fast, or have that ultra close 3 shot thing that only does 2X the dmg of 1 shot, but why dont you try THAT shotgun for a bit , see if it is as easy to use as you think. See if you dont die all the time to things trying to get in close. Remember, it takes close to the same amount of time to kill reinforced or agile with that as it does the hammer (hammer fire time is a little faster, by 10ths of a second, but still same time range)

[Winged_Nazgul]

I'm not sure but I think the original plans for the NC HA weapon was going to be a flamethrower. That was scrapped due to the lag factor.

[Arakiel]

Originally posted by Led
Nothing ever changed with the striker except fixing the lock bug...


Yeah, but it used to be overly difficult to use effectively, and now it's pretty much impossible to miss a MAX at any range. :p

[FliggenMan]

Even the other shotgun has more power than any other weapon upclose, you can kill reinforced in 3 shots jsut as fast as the hammer with 3 shots, and at the same range.

God that is wrong. So, so wrong. Not only does the Jackhammer have a RoF that exceeds the sweeper, but its Dmg per hit as well as the hit radius of its shells are increased. I've been using the JH in VR and other junk characters for 3 days to compare it, and i haven't really died to any infantry lately.

[WritheNC]

Some Vanu with a sweeper killed me 5 times in a row in a tower when I had a jackhammer. He crouched with half cover from the middle pillar in front of the tower's cc, and I tried to run up and close on him. I died every time...then I finished my coffee and had my revenge! ;) It was like 10 in the morning.

[1024]

Originally posted by WritheNC
Some Vanu with a sweeper killed me 5 times in a row in a tower when I had a jackhammer. He crouched with half cover from the middle pillar in front of the tower's cc, and I tried to run up and close on him. I died every time...then I finished my coffee and had my revenge! ;) It was like 10 in the morning.

OK, not to be mean, but that vanu couldn't of been that good. I think you just need to "wwork on your skills" with the jackhammer...:rolleyes: