The Sniper Debate - Once and for All!!!

[Psycho21]

I'm sick of hearing the old debate about how powerful sniper rifles should be on other forums, often with unrelated subjects, so I created this poll to end the debate once and for all.

[Led]

I hope sniper rifles do squat to MAX units. Think about it. MAX IFVs (well, that is what a MAX is, a one man infantry fighting vehicle, hehe) do not have much in terms of long range weaponry. And any rockets or other such stuff could be easily avoided by the time they impact.

[Camping Carl]

Don't worry, dave has told us that bolt drivers don't do sqaut vs. a max suit.

[Hamma]

:ugh:

[Warborn]

The majority isn't always right. If I walked into a Special Ed class and asked the students how to resolve the Iraq - United States problem, the answer the majority would give me would not necessarily be the best course of action. Not to imply anything about the people of this forum, though. It's just an analogy to illustrate how the majority is very capable of not having a clue.

[Navaron]

Thankyou Warborn for yet another antiforum post. I think sniper rifles will be fine as long as they don't have static cross hairs. I think the damage sounds right, tough for a one shot kill on anything, and they are single action so you can't speed kill.

[Camping Carl]

Here's the solution to the sniper problem: Solution (www.killfrog.com)

Hamma, I promise this is the last time.

[Navaron]

For the love of god man, stop already.

[Camping Carl]

:D

[Warborn]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Thankyou Warborn for yet another antiforum post. I think sniper rifles will be fine as long as they don't have static cross hairs. I think the damage sounds right, tough for a one shot kill on anything, and they are single action so you can't speed kill.

Please. The original poster said "The Sniper Debate -- Once and For all", and then added "... I created this poll to end the debate once and for all.", when all he's doing is starting yet another sniper discussion. I was only saying that you can't end something simply by finding out which side of the argument is the majority. This poll isn't fact based off of personal experience-- it's the epitome of conjecture.

[Camping Carl]

Very true, exactly what I thought when I saw this thread.

[Hamma]

Where is that horse at? I think we need to beat it some more.

[Airlift]

The Galaxy is gonna be sky mofoing king!

[Camping Carl]

::finds horse.....hits with large stick::

[�io]

Originally posted by Camping Carl
Here's the solution to the sniper problem: Solution (www.killfrog.com)

Hamma, I promise this is the last time.

:lol:

I voted 1kill on head shot on lighter armors.

Ideal situation in my opinion would be very hard to get headshots that kill anything less than med armor in 1 hit. It would mean the sniper rifle is deadly but only if skilled, like in RL.

[NapalmEnima]

// The Scene: Camping Carl searches for a dead horse

Carl: Where oh where has my dead horse gone? Where oh where can he be?

NE: See that pile of maggots over yonder? That's all thats left of the dead horse. Bugs and a skeleton. Kinda gross really... but I suppose if you really wanna give it another whack, be my guest.

[DLR Evil Napkin]

heh

http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/ed/SniperHeadShot3.gif

[Camping Carl]

::Pours gasoline on horse, lights::

[mistled]

I know this is a stupid thing to say here, and I fully expect to get ripped for it, but here goes. Two things.

One.... There shouldn't be any semi-auto sniper rifles. I don't know if there are in this game or not, but there shouldn't be any in any game. All they do is promote wannabe sniping. If you don't hit your target on the first try, you should be moving location so he doesn't kill you. And if you CAN'T hit your target on the first try, put away the sniper rifle and get a machine gun like everyone else. Bolt action single shot rifles are the only way to do it. Sniping should be difficult. And it should be difficult for the following reason....

Two.... one shot should be able to kill anyone. Don't get me wrong here. When I say one shot, I mean one shot between the eyes. None of this "I hit your leg, so you should die" bullshit. I'll even concede that a shot to the back of the head on a max could be deflected enough to require a second shot. But there isn't a pair of goggles in this universe that can withstand a sniper bullet and still be transparent enough to see through. If you get shot in the face, that should be it.

There's a reason snipers are feared in battle. A reason that people hide when they know snipers are around. A reason why they are the most hated and most loved men on the battlefield (depending on who's getting shot at and whose ass is being covered of course). And I'll tell you what. Four hit kills isn't that reason.

Flame on.

mistled
One Shot. One Kill.

[mistled]

and yes, I know I'm helping to beat that poor defenseless horse. But he's dead, so I bet he doesn't mind. :)

and that 'once and for all' thing is funny... we'll be arguing this until we die. :-)

[Camping Carl]

http://64.207.13.28/mysmilies/contrib/edoom/cussing.gif

I disagree with everything you said! I didn't actually read any of it, but I'm sure I would disagree with you, had I read it. Really, I just love to disagree with people.

[Unknown]

The only sniper rifle in the game is the bolt driver - a single action, reload after each shot rifle (and it's a rifle BTW, so infiltrators cant carry it - no cloaking snipers).

I see your point but I don't think anyone should be able to kill a MAX in one shot. That's just too much power in one person's hands.

[Camping Carl]

Yes, that's what the decimator is for.

[Vimp]

The idea of taking someone out by continueingly shooting them in the foot or the hand is one of the silliest things about the game. And from what I hear the only different parts to hit are body and head so the silliness continues since being shot in the heart can and will hurt as much as being shot in the finger or toe.

[Psycho21]

Ok, so a poll probably won't end the debate forever. However, this game is being made for the people, and the aim of the devs is to make it as much like what they want as possible. I agree that the poll is not accurate because without actually trying the game out htere is no way to get a feel for the balance.

If a MAX gets shot, its not just goggles protecting him. Remember that a MAX is basically a small Mech, and is therefore covered with reinforced armour all over. Even if this wasn't the case, a mech being killed with one hit just wouldn't make for good gameplay, especially when u'd just forked out all those points for the Cert.

Swaying crosshairs, such as in DOD, are a great idea, especially the way there is less of a sway when you are prone. There better be a prone key in PS...

[Flashingfish]

mistled I agree with pretty much everything you said. But I really hop ethat sniping is difficult, meaning the effects of sway, wind etc. should be included.

And no, there is no prone position in ps.

[Coliostro]

I agree with Mistled. I don't think there should be wind though..mostly because i believe it would be too difficult to put in and would make it longer before the game came out :nono:


Also, and the most unfortunate thing of all, there really will never be an end to the sniper debate. The snipers will always think they're under powered and the sniped will always think those snipers are over powered...that's just the way of the world. The grass is always greener (unless your neighbors don't water their lawn)

[Unknown]

On the shot in the Heart vs Finger debate, if you think about it, the infantry have armor and I'm sure its very thick protecting the chest, wheras a finger or hand can't have too much armor cause it has to be able to handle weaponry. So getting your finger shot off would probably hurt more than gettin shot in your body armor ;). Plus you might bleed alot and you'd become weaker because of it. It makes sense that headshots hurt the most cause it has less armor, especially in the face where there's no armor/helmet.

[�io]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
I know this is a stupid thing to say here, and I fully expect to get ripped for it, but here goes. Two things.

One.... There shouldn't be any semi-auto sniper rifles. I don't know if there are in this game or not, but there shouldn't be any in any game. All they do is promote wannabe sniping. If you don't hit your target on the first try, you should be moving location so he doesn't kill you. And if you CAN'T hit your target on the first try, put away the sniper rifle and get a machine gun like everyone else. Bolt action single shot rifles are the only way to do it. Sniping should be difficult. And it should be difficult for the following reason....

Two.... one shot should be able to kill anyone. Don't get me wrong here. When I say one shot, I mean one shot between the eyes. None of this "I hit your leg, so you should die" bullshit. I'll even concede that a shot to the back of the head on a max could be deflected enough to require a second shot. But there isn't a pair of goggles in this universe that can withstand a sniper bullet and still be transparent enough to see through. If you get shot in the face, that should be it.

There's a reason snipers are feared in battle. A reason that people hide when they know snipers are around. A reason why they are the most hated and most loved men on the battlefield (depending on who's getting shot at and whose ass is being covered of course). And I'll tell you what. Four hit kills isn't that reason.

Flame on.

mistled
One Shot. One Kill.

Very well said!

However being a possible sniper in the future (and one who does not want to be a 1 man army) i would add 2 little things to your description.

1- On a Med armor it should not be 1 headshot for a kill, more like 2 headshots. On a MAX if you hit anything but the face it should do squat, if you do hit the face i would say about 15%, this means you have to hit the face (very small target) about 7 times without getting killed, not a very easy task.

2-Dunno if you planned it or not but i would hope for sway in the first seconds of aiming. This means you can't run, shoot, run, shoot, you have to stop, kneel (less sway if crouched) aim, wait a bit then fire, then either you get up and run or you stay crouched, aim again and fire. Between shots it should take a good 3-5secs before sway goes down enough to aim good.

All that would make the sniper indeed a worthy foe but only if skilled and you know how to aim good. I love sniping but only if it's realistic, otherwise i guess i'll hop in a tank like the rest. :(

[Warborn]

Very well said!

However being a possible sniper in the future (and one who does not want to be a 1 man army) i would add 2 little things to your description.

1- On a Med armor it should not be 1 headshot for a kill, more like 2 headshots. On a MAX if you hit anything but the face it should do squat, if you do hit the face i would say about 15%, this means you have to hit the face (very small target) about 7 times without getting killed, not a very easy task.

2-Dunno if you planned it or not but i would hope for sway in the first seconds of aiming. This means you can't run, shoot, run, shoot, you have to stop, kneel (less sway if crouched) aim, wait a bit then fire, then either you get up and run or you stay crouched, aim again and fire. Between shots it should take a good 3-5secs before sway goes down enough to aim good.

All that would make the sniper indeed a worthy foe but only if skilled and you know how to aim good. I love sniping but only if it's realistic, otherwise i guess i'll hop in a tank like the rest. :(

Assuming "medium" armor is Agile armor, these are very good points, and I agree completely.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally posted by Dio
2-Dunno if you planned it or not but i would hope for sway in the first seconds of aiming. This means you can't run, shoot, run, shoot, you have to stop, kneel (less sway if crouched) aim, wait a bit then fire, then either you get up and run or you stay crouched, aim again and fire. Between shots it should take a good 3-5secs before sway goes down enough to aim good.


I don't the the 3-5 seconds will be an issue. Remeber, you have to reload after each shot... so you'll have to pull away from the zoomed out view for a moment to slap in a new round.

RTCA implemented a system like this, where your sway gradually decreased down to nothing. I actually would have liked it to level off before it hit zero, but that's just me. With a cone of fire rather than a pixel-perfect system, swaying is not really needed. You just tighten up the cone as you hold still over time, and end up with a similar effect.

[mistled]

Here are the screenshots that are on this forum for the MAX.

Vanu
http://planetside.station.sony.com/images/teams/vanu/soldiers/VS_male_heavy.jpg

NC
http://planetside.station.sony.com/images/teams/newconglomerate/soldiers/NC_heavy_Female.jpg

Maybe it's just the angle, but it looks to me like the only thing protecting the face is a transparent screen of some sort. I dont' know what it is made of, but I somehow doubt it would stop a sniper rifle.

For all these people saying that a sniper rifle shouldn't be able to hurt a max (on the whole forum, not on this thread as much), how do you suppose we kill one?? If a sniper bullet doesn't even scratch a max, there's no way in hell that any other bullet will either. Rifles simply have larger, more forcefully driven bullets. If that bounces off, there's no hope for any other gun that uses bullets to hurt one of these things and we're back to forcing everyone into carrying a damn rocket launcher of some sort. I don't know about the rest of you, but usually the only people with rocket launchers in the games I play are noobs.

A max that can't be hurt by bullets just seems like a terrible way to force us to play how they want us to, so I hope that's terribly inaccurate and they can be taken down by regular shots.

mistled

-- I'm amazed, btw, that this has been as polite and cordial as it has. Maybe all the anti snipers are waiting to attack together. :)

[Camping Carl]

Indeed, but if you saw that gamespot movie with the vanu max, they were shooting at it with punishers and stuff like that for quite a while before it turned tail and fled. And the vanu max has the least armor of the three! Just imagine a squad trying to take down an NC max without anti-vehicular weapons!

[Warborn]

Maybe it's just the angle, but it looks to me like the only thing protecting the face is a transparent screen of some sort. I dont' know what it is made of, but I somehow doubt it would stop a sniper rifle.

You show me a bolt driver and a MAX and I'll demonstrate how the faceplate stops the projectile of a bolt driver. Until then, we'll chalk it up to game balance superceding realism.

For all these people saying that a sniper rifle shouldn't be able to hurt a max (on the whole forum, not on this thread as much), how do you suppose we kill one??

/em points to the anti-armor weapons in the Common Pool and Faction-specific pools

The Common Pool assault rifle also has an underslung grenade launcher which would do some damage to a MAX. And, of course, there are other MAX's, tanks, Reavers, buggies, and grenades that would all be able to damage a MAX. But, let's not rule out armor-piercing ammunition either (something bolt drivers will hopefully not have access to). Remember, though, that this isn't suppose to be a game of one-man armies running around. It's about large scale combat, and people filling niches. If you encounter a MAX and you're not equipped to fight a MAX, yes, you should die. Likewise, if a MAX runs into an infantryman with a rocket launcher and it's using an anti-aircraft weapon setup, then yes, the MAX should die.

If that bounces off, there's no hope for any other gun that uses bullets to hurt one of these things and we're back to forcing everyone into carrying a damn rocket launcher of some sort.

The main advantage an infantryman has over a MAX is mobility. MAX armor has slow turning ability and, unless sprinting, slow movement speed. It also cannot fight while sprinting. Therefore, you'd only need a couple smart infantrymen with anti-armor weaponry to take out a lone MAX.

I don't know about the rest of you, but usually the only people with rocket launchers in the games I play are noobs.

Unskilled players tend to be drawn to very powerful weapons which allow them to get kills despite their lack of skill. Not surprisingly, sniper rifles are usually one of those weapons. But, yes, rocket launchers tend to be also. However, PS rocket launchers will likely have very limited ammunition and a comparatively slow projectile. Unless you're in closed quarters, you'll probably be able to avoid the blast if you see it coming. And even if you don't, he won't be able to shoot many more times, so if the first blast doesn't kill you, chances are you aren't going to die by his hand.

[Dragoon412]

mistled,

<I>"...how do you suppose we kill one?? If a sniper bullet doesn't even scratch a max, there's no way in hell that any other bullet will either."</I>

<I>"Rifles simply have larger, more forcefully driven bullets."</I>

You answered your own question - heavier hitting weapons. I agree - I hope snipers can't do a damned thing to a MAX. It's be nice if just ONCE one of these games got the sniper role right and relegated the bastards to fire support and demoralization, other than catering to the legions of idiots with names like "mastahsnipahpsychokillahgoku420" that think a sniper is a one-man army.

If you want to take out a MAX, you ought to be using rifle grenades, hand grenades, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, and other heavier weapons.

Think of the balance repreocussions - if snipers can pick off anything from long range, the game will become PlanetSniper - EVERYONE will be using a bolt driver, skulking around in the bushes and waiting for someone to pop his head up so they can have a kill.

Really, snipers are nutcases - real world militaries don't rely on them as the backbone of their army because they're difficult to train and exceedingly few people have the necessary skills and mindset to do the job, which is practically a suicide mission. In a game, though, any idiot with the slighest bit of dexterity can turn into a halfway competant sniper, and the psychological factor is completely removed, so the <I>actual</I> controlling factors for the sniper population are removed, therefore, we need other factors to take their place, and making them weak(er) sounds like a damned fine substitute.

I applaud PS, 'cause from the sounds of it, someone's finally making a game that's telling the sniper crowd to sit down, shutup, and play the role they're supposed to.

[Zatrais]

I really don't like overly zealous pro snipers that think snipers should be the bane of all infantry.

It won't happen, most people are not snipers. the Devs will not cater to "the few, the proud, the snipers" or whatever you say. They cater to the masses. I also highly doubt the devs want a game of sniping...

but annyways, you guys run around in the hills sniping me in my MAX while i run out of my transport and to a base for assaulting.

[Hamma]

This almost goes along with these threads.

Change the titles to "Sniper thread 1, 2 and 3"
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2002-12-13

[Camping Carl]

:huh:

[Warborn]

Penny Arcade > All

[Coliostro]

I think they should just take snipers out of the game. Take the bolt driver, the snipers, and the Vanu right out of the game.
:nazi:

[Camping Carl]

and the Vanu right out of the game.

I wish they would.....

[�io]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
-- I'm amazed, btw, that this has been as polite and cordial as it has. Maybe all the anti snipers are waiting to attack together. :)

Wow looks like you were right. Ok well since they showed up and there's no point in yet another "Snipers are a support role you f* idiot VS Snipers should be realistic" thread i think this is my cue to exit. :)

[Coliostro]

I wasn't serious about that post Dio. I think they should leave the snipers in. The Vanu still have to go though :D They're just too creepy. :scared:

[Omega]

Well the bolt driver should have a one head shot kill on all armor classes except the MAX armors.

That just makes the best since, the bolt driver should do damage to MAX armors though just not anywhere near the damage it would do to lighter armors.


Justin

[�io]

Originally posted by Coliostro
I wasn't serious about that post Dio. I think they should leave the snipers in. The Vanu still have to go though :D They're just too creepy. :scared:

:D
I wasn't talking about you, more like 2 other people before you, i make it a point to not try and have a serious debate with people who result to "sit down and shut up". :)

[Coliostro]

Originally posted by Dio
:D
I wasn't talking about you, more like 2 other people before you, i make it a point to not try and have a serious debate with people who result to "sit down and shut up". :)

Yeah, i have a tendency to ignore those folks as well. My mommy always told me, "If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say it at all." hmm...Or was that "nice" Well, either way i didn't talk much as a kid :nono:

[�io]

Originally posted by Coliostro
Yeah, i have a tendency to ignore those folks as well. My mommy always told me, "If you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't say it at all." hmm...Or was that "nice" Well, either way i didn't talk much as a kid :nono:

:lol:

[Navaron]

:stupid: :rofl: :rofl:

[Dragoon412]

Oh, the irony of the last several posts...

Anyways, look, I'm sorry I'm one of "those people" -- if you have an argument to present, go ahead, Dio, but I seriously doubt it'll boil down to anything other than the typical argument snipers give about how they should be more powerful than everyone else.

Honestly, I'm not an anti-sniper... I LOVE sniping. I HATE snipers who feel it's their right to be a man-portable apacolypse. And while, yes, snipers are extremely effective in real life, in the interest of game design, balance should supercede realism.

So, since you're so hung up on the wording of my previous post, let me reword it:

"Yay, PlanetSide isn't catering to snipers like so many games do."

That better?

[Navaron]

Here's a stupid little fact. I remember reading that deployed snipers in the military get under 8 confirmed kills a war. I don't think that will aid this debate at all, so I'll make an exit now.....

[�io]

Yeah but your wording is still wrong Dragoon. You say "balance should supercede realism." when in reality what you wanted to say is "my thoughts should supercede yours.".

I can't see any other way to explain how you think "balance should supercede realism" yet demand that the snipers role in-game be realistic.

As i said previously in this thread
i would hope for sway in the first seconds of aiming. This means you can't run, shoot, run, shoot, you have to stop, kneel (less sway if crouched) aim, wait a bit then fire, then either you get up and run or you stay crouched, aim again and fire. Between shots it should take a good 3-5secs before sway goes down enough to aim good.

This would mean the role and actions real. In real life you can't shoot bullets every few seconds and hope to kill your target, the point of sniping is take down your target in 1 shot or you're out. Make sniping a question of aiming and skill like it should be.

Anyhooo i'm gonna try and get out of this thread by saying this.

I do NOT want the sniper to be a 1 man army, i just think the Anti-sniper people should quit focusing on the damage per shot and instead focus on the difficulty of said shot. You want a game where not every "n00b" is a sniper then quit demanding less damage and instead make it impossible to get a headshot unless you spend 10hours a week for 8 months on praticing your sniper skillz. :)

[Hamma]

:withx:

[�io]

Originally posted by Hamma
:withx:

Now i know how you got your l33t whorex2 status Hamma. :p

[Stalefish]

Maybe it should be like a 56ker snipes in Tribes and Tribes 2, they can't hit a damn thing because they don't see in real time. :D

[Dragoon412]

Navaron -

Look back a long ways; snipers now-a-days get few average recorded kills as they're virtually never deployed. Why risk sending in snipers to take out a bunch of 3rd-world thugs when you can send in aircraft that will pulverize every single inch of the ground with laser-guided bombs? Another other reason that snipers aren't a major factor in modern wars is that they're still viewed with a stigma; they're essentially assassins, which makes for less-than-honorable warfare. And snipers are the guys you rarely hear about, because they're with the SEALS or Marine Force Recon or the Rangers - not exactly organizations that make a whole lot of data publicly available. You won't turn on CNN and hear that the US deployed a USMC Force Recon Sniper to Afghanistan who has 14 confirmed kills, 2 of which are enemy leaders. Another issue is that many snipers operate individually and they have a very high fatality rate. If so-and-so the sniper racks up 40 confirmed kills and is never heard from again, that's 40 confirmed kills that don't go on the record books.

Dio,

No, I'm not saying my thoughts should supercede yours, I'm saying that realism should be sacrificed for the benefit of gameplay. The one thing marksmanship has in common with gaming is that an extraordinary amount of dexterity is required in order to truly excel. Cones of fire, sway, etc. are all nice ideas, but what seperates a full-blown sniper from any other marksman (accuracy-wise) is an almost superhuman feel for the weapon; something that's not replicable in a gaming environment right now because the systems currently implemented are lacking any sort of intricacy or complexity. There's too much randomness involved in current systems for someone to really develop a "feel" for the weapon, and that's to say nothing of the technical limitations that go along with sniping in a game - you can't even go prone, you can't control your body or your breathing, you can't climb trees or dive for cover - your ideas are very good, but we just aren't there yet, in terms of the technology that'd be required to make them effective. But, believe me - if there was a system in place that was even close to replicating the sort of intricacy of actual sniping, meaning that players who wanted to be snipers would actually have to demonstrate a phenomenal amount of skill, I'd be all for it. But it's not happening - games aren't even approaching that level of sophistication right now.

The other point, as I mentioned earlier, is that snipers tend to be a little... nuts. They're going deep into hostile territory, alone, often to take out a very high-priority target. They have no backup, no safety, and their job is incredibly infuriating to an enemy force. In short, they tend to not live a long time. And, obviously, in real life, you don't just respawn and run back. Snipers are a special breed of headcase (and for the record, I speak from experience - my family has a very strong military background).

So if all that's required is dexterity, what's keeping the population of snipers in check? Very little... most people are dexterous enough to pose a significant risk if you're on the business end of their sniper rifle. However, snipers are, in many FPS games (namely tactical shooters) capable of dealing out death just as (if not more) effectively than their real-life counterparts, yet there's virtually no assumed risk.

<B>Real life:</B> Sniping is very high-risk, but has the potential for huge payoff. Snipers are few in numbers, so they're utilized on very high-priority missions, such as routing/demoralizing (NOT destroying) enemy troops or assassination.

High risk, high gain, immense skill required.

<B>Typical Video Game Model</B>: Snipers can one-shot almost anything, sometimes they need a second shot. They can single-handedly wipe out entire squads of enemy soldiers who are actively looking for them. And if they get caught? So what, they respawn. So they tend to be much more forward and "brave" than an actual sniper would be.

Very low risk, high gain, little skill required.

Something not seem to match up right? It's risk vs. reward - a concept any game designer should be able to expound upon for hours. In short, the two need to be kept in line, relative to eachother. If one facet of the game offers significant risk with little gain, and another offers low risk with high gain, players will gravitate towards the low-risk, high-gain profession and ignore the other, thus affecting the overall balance of the game. Hell, it even changes the very fundamentals of combat. This is a patently bad thing for reasons that are very obvious.

So all I propose is this: since the technology isn't sophisticated enough to impliment a more realistic system of sniping and sniper control, we should asjust the risk/reward ratio to make sniping fall in line with other professions. No more low-risk, high-gain sniping. Since PS' design necessitates low-risk, it needs to be low-risk, low-gain.

[Navaron]

You must have a lot of free time. That was one big damn post.

[Coliostro]

That was so long winded i didn't read it. It wasn't addressed to me anyways though. It's a federal offense to open other peoples mail ya know. :spam:

[�io]

Wow that was indeed long but the most surprising thing was it was actually well thought out. Kudos :thumbsup:

I agree with the whole, i (as i said many times before) don't want the sniper in PS to be a 1 man army, nobody should not a MAX, not a tank,nothing.

However if the sniper would need 2-3 headshots for a kill on any armor than it would become useless or rather nearly useless. The only thing you could do as a sniper would be shoot the guy once and either try to get him again and pray your lucky and/or he is dumb or run away.

I think (as stated before) the empashis should be on making headshots lethal on anything except med and MAX armors but make said headshots very hard to do on a moving target and make reload time long enough to make the 1st shot important and not just shoot as many times as you want in 5 secs. :)

And heck if you guys are really that worried about every "n00b" becoming a sniper then demand that they include a sniper cert that would cost a lot of cert points so that only those who want to snipe and only snipe become snipers. Or if you grab a bolt driver you can only carry that and a pistol. Something along those lines so that the sniper is still able to do his job and kill from a distance but is screwed if he doesn't have the smarts and the skillz to pull it off.

You know now that i think of it i really really hope the sniper can't carry anything except a pistol and maybe a few nades. It would make the sniper a lot more real and fun.

Again Kudos Dragoon on a well thought out and respectful post. :)

[Hamma]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/~hamma/deadhorsepark.jpg

[�io]

Originally posted by Hamma
http://www.planetside-universe.com/~hamma/deadhorsepark.jpg

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Camping Carl]

:lol:
I wonder if hamma is getting sick of people talking about snipers...

[�io]

What i'm wondering is if he is more sick of hearing about snipers or tribes. :lol:

[Camping Carl]

I'm just amazed he hasn't locked this thread yet! :D

[Warborn]

You must have a lot of free time. That was one big damn post.

If you don't have anything to add, don't try and sneak in personal attacks.


Let's continue this when we know precisely how effective these weapons will be.

[�io]

Originally posted by Camping Carl
I'm just amazed he hasn't locked this thread yet! :D

Hamma is a softie, he doesn't like locking threads, Arglaar on the other hand should lock this soon after he sees it. Other than that who are the other police here? Where are the cops when you need them huh, probably out at Dunkin' Donuts or something. :no:

[Dragoon412]

Dio,

Thank you for your compliments and your reply -- it's good to see we're more or less on the same page regarding snipers. I actually like your idea (a lot) about letting bolt drivers do heavy damage, but lowering their rate of fire, too. I don't think I'd mind dying to a sniper so much if he only had one chance, but still managed to put a slug through my facemask from 400 meters. And if he missed, hey - I'd have a grand ol' time tearing him a new arsehole in the middle of his chest. ;)

Just off the top of my head, I'd say that if a sniper had to load each slug manually (which they do), then steady and take aim, that would seem reasonable for a heavy damage tradeoff. The bolt driver and pistol only idea sounds really good, too. I'll admit, that's one of the things I worried about -- charging a sniper only to have him drop his bolt driver and whip out a rocklet as soon as I got close.

Warborn,

Thank you, too. :) I agree, we should probably pick up this conversation once we actually know how much damage the bolt driver does, but it's kinda fun to talk about it, anyways. :D

[Camping Carl]

Yeah, he's too nice to lock a thread (usually).
Where's Arglaar then?

[�io]

Just off the top of my head, I'd say that if a sniper had to load each slug manually (which they do), then steady and take aim, that would seem reasonable for a heavy damage tradeoff. The bolt driver and pistol only idea sounds really good, too. I'll admit, that's one of the things I worried about -- charging a sniper only to have him drop his bolt driver and whip out a rocklet as soon as I got close.

:huh:

But...wha...that's what i kept saying way back there(well minus the pistol only but again that was my idea).... oh well at least we both agree now. :lol:

I think that would totally own. Make the sniping process a slow and hard one but deadly and his only shot because if he misses he only has a pistol.

Very nice. Glad we *cough*I*cough* thought about it. :thumbsup:

Now if only Smokey can read this i agree with us. :lol:

[�io]

Originally posted by Camping Carl
Yeah, he's too nice to lock a thread (usually).
Where's Arglaar then?

Dunno.

I would gladly police this thread among others *hint hint* huh Hamma.


...


What?

[Camping Carl]

I have a feeling you'd be a nazi. :nazi:

[Dragoon412]

*chuckle*

Yeah, I suppose ya did, Dio. :D

*scratches his head*

Now that I think about it... bah, screw it - it's cool now. ;)

[Coliostro]

I'd be a thread Nazi too I'm afraid. I'm not saying i'm not open minded but I have low tolerence for people who don't know how to get their point across without sounding like an @$$hole. After 2 or 3 of those I'd close the thread and it'd have to start all over again. This, among many other reasons, is why I don't have my own website


:spam:


Dancing spam is the coolest thing ever. :D

[�io]

Well i don't mind "people who don't know how to get their point across without sounding like an @$$hole." i just don't have much patience for a thread that was down 3-4 times already becoming yet another 10 page thread. :lol:

That or threads that are 80%+ flame or insults. :)

I'd be a nazi yes but a good nazi serving the good of the community. (well the non flaming part) :p

Edit: Oh and i'd be a nazi on your ass Carl! or should i say Mr. Spam to get Commander before 2k3. ;)

[Hamma]

I am not going to lock threads because I dont agree with them.. I like open debate/discussion. I am only going to lock threads if they are made with one purpose (flaming) or if it violates one of our rules.

[Camping Carl]

You should make it against the rules to use the word "sniper".

[CDaws]

Dragoon412 from what I know of military knowledge, and if I'm wrong let me know, snipers don't go into combat alone as you have said. They do have a spotter to watch there back so they can complete there mission. If you ment alone as in no backup your right there, depending on the mission, and unless there also acting as advance scouts. But, no a lone sniper does not go into combat alone. You talk about how some snipers are nut cases, going in alone by themselves would make them like that over time. As far as Planetside is conserned one-shot-kills should be left to light and maybe med armor with a headshot or chest shot, nothing less. Heavy armors maybe a little damage but, not one-shot-kills. As for the Max armors very miniscule damage, nothing more than an anoyance to hear a bullet bouncing off metal. That's why there's anti-armor and anti-vehiculer weapons. I still think the sniper thing in some games is very over rated. You get some players that they think one-shot-kills to the head should take out everyone like there some kind god or over whelming force that they decide when and where a player gets fraged or not. Thoes are the real nut cases. As far as the scope sway issue goes probably the best example I can give is the Return to Castle Wolfenstein setup. You can't go prone, it does take a few seconds for the scope to almost stop swaying, and if you croutch the scope sways even less. After each shot you have to reposition your scope and wait for it to almost stop swating again to get a good shot. Ok I will get off my soapbox now. And oh yeah let the flames fly, it's cold where I'm at.:flamemad:

[Camping Carl]

:rolleyes: I don't think it'll ever end, even after PS is out.

[CDaws]

Bet your right Carl. Some people are never satisified.

[Hamma]

http://www.planetside-universe.com/~hamma/deadhorsesummit.jpg

[Zatrais]

nah, keep iy going... lets see how manny dead horse picks hamma has :D

[Navaron]

place youre bets, I say he has 14 more...........

[mistled]

Ok, I'm all for seeing how many pics Hamma has, so on we go.

I'm all for an incredibly slow reload time. That would keep people with no skill from taking multiple potshots on a group.

I'm also all for making the bolt driver require a cert that's really difficult to get.

Also good is the idea that snipers can only carry their rifle and a pistol.

The way I'm hearing it, the entire problem people have is that no one (including me) wants to see a hoard of snipers running around. If you make it very difficult to hit anything and almost force people to kill in one hit, that should help. If done properly, it could get to a point where it is not a thing of a sniper 'can' kill in one hit, it's that they 'have' to kill in one hit. Make the reload time slow enough (and don't let people using sniper rifles in max armor for the love of all that's holy) and force some skill to be involved and that should help alot.

If these things were put into play (slow reloading, difficult cert, and limited weapon selection), I don't see how you could still require multiple face shots to kill. The way I see it, and I think many will agree, snipers should only be used for demoralizing troops (and then sparingly) and for assassinations. In real life, it's going to be very rare for the target of an assassination to be in heavy body armor. Look at the world leaders today. You never see any of them in armor, much less head armor. That will be completely different in Planetside. I can't imagine a general in Planetside who won't be in at the very least medium armor. If medium armor requires two head shots, you just eliminated the entire use of snipers. I know that's the point for some of you, but some of us will never wear a max and wish no one else did either, but you don't see me whining about how the max should be stripped of all that makes it cool just because every noob who wants to be able to run (well... jog) into a firefight without dying right away will wear one. (and no, I'm not trying to reduce a max here, I'm trying to get a sniper rifle that works right. If you want to survive a shot between the eyes, get in a tank, where I can't see your eyes to hit them.)

Here's a thought (one that would probably never be done, but could work). What if you had to be given sniper missions?? What if there wasn't a sniper rifle for the general populace (or maybe just the weak ass one people seem to want)?? What if someone of high rank (I don't know how hard each rank is to get, so I don't know how high a rank this should be) had to give you a sniper mission (and thus, the gun to use on it)?? What if (this could be harsh, but it could be tried) the sniper could only shoot his target with it (have the gun coded to the target and only enable when that person is in the crosshairs). That would prevent people from getting an assignment and then just running around with the gun.

Thoughts??

[Navaron]

Just a note.....MAX wearers can only use one of three sets of weapons, ANti Air, ANti Tank, and Anti Infantry (Is that right, it doesn't seem right). Now the Idea of a higher powered rifle, that has a "victim" is a great one. That would symbolize the real life threats that icons in the military face. Waxing them would be very hard, and would greatly disrupt the flow of the battle. I like that idea alot. Plus you still have to get the hell out. I also hope the crosshairs aren't static (or at least immediately).

[Zatrais]

Yeah MAX's can only have 1 wep configuration at a time and you need a cert for every one of them.

and 1 shotting MAX's... won't happen.. As hamma said MAX's are walking tanks.

[Dragoon412]

SPecialOp,

Yes, spotters often go with snipers in assassination missions, but that's not necessarily the case all the time. In fact, in most cases, it's not. For assassinations, the spotter makes the mission more likely to be successful, but usually the spotter is a trained sniper, himself, and in the case of demoralization (which can more or less be treated as indiscrimminant killing of the enemy in a certain area), you're much better off with two highly-trained snipers that have guns that're capable of covering more area than one with a gun and one with a pair of binoculars.

[zMessiahz]

*yawn* Snipers are an inconsequential bore. They appeal to people who enjoy sitting back and waiting for targets. People who shy away from going toe to toe. Then they talk about skill... yeah sitting there and shooting someone under zoom while you don't have to move takes oh so much skill. Let them have their 1 shot kills on small armor. Big whoop so they will get lucky and kill you once in awhile. Still I'll get more free kills from them whenever see one.

[orogogus]

well, at the risk of seeing yet another hamma dead horse picture (is that really a risk? =p)... and having lurked for a good long while and not recalling seeing a suggestion like this before (even though I'm sure the idea will get buried in the signal to noise on this post) I'll just throw it out.

I thought the Splinter Cell on the Xbox had a good system for aiming while sniping... the crosshairs are always floating, and you hold down another button to 'hold your breath' which drains a bar that slowly fills back up again when you aren't holding down the button (left trigger in case anyone out there cares what the xbox controls are =p). While this bar is draining, the crosshairs don't move and you have pretty close to pixel perfect aiming... just takes some time to get on target (and aim with a fugging analog controller). You probably have ~5sec of steady aim on a full breath, and about 1.5x to fill the bar up again from empty after a shot (assuming you use the whole bar). Pretty decent system IMO, especially with the analog system which makes it a bit harder to line up the shot after you start to hold your breath for the shot.

*edit cause spelling is... hard

[mistled]

Originally posted by zMessiahz
*yawn* Snipers are an inconsequential bore. They appeal to people who enjoy sitting back and waiting for targets. People who shy away from going toe to toe. Then they talk about skill... yeah sitting there and shooting someone under zoom while you don't have to move takes oh so much skill. Let them have their 1 shot kills on small armor. Big whoop so they will get lucky and kill you once in awhile. Still I'll get more free kills from them whenever see one.

Three things.

One... Since you obviously have no respect for any sniper, why can't they have one shot kills on anyone? If you are so confident that they will get 'lucky' only 'once in a while', what is the harm of letting them kill you when they do get 'lucky'?

Two... Did you notice that you said sniping takes no skill and then immediately said that snipers would only get lucky once in a while?? If there is no skill involved, why would anyone have to be lucky??

Three... You mention snpers who sit and wait for some random person to cross their path. I agree that the lone sniper who sits in a random location to cap random people is stupid and defeats the whole point of being a sniper. Snipers should never be set up in random locations. They should either be set up to defend a location (or an object... like the briefcase in an infiltration game of sof2.... I know it's annoying, but hey, learn to out shoot them :) ), or they should be set up to assassinate a particular target. Any other time, a sniper will be trying to get where he is going (usually deep into enemy territory) without being seen. He should be anywhere but some random place taking pot shots at grunts. Let grunts shoot grunts. Snipers have generals to kill.


By the way, I haven't seen much mention of the idea that a leader of high rank would have to give out specific sniper missions. What does everyone think?? (Or should I just make that a whole new thread??)


I like most ideas I've heard about adding breathing to the game for the snipers. It could even be something as simple as America's Army did, which was allow you to hear yourself breath. When you pause for a breath, the cursor stops for about three fourths a second and you shoot. It's the only game that has ever forced me to turn up my speakers to make expert marksman.

I also want to mention (I forgot to my last post) that the only legitimate argument I've heard against snipers is that they respawn, thus taking away the fear of death that being surrounded twenty to one brings. But I can levy that same argument against anyone who has ever played a capture the flag game by just sending a steady stream of guys at the flag, knowing that everytime someone grabs it, it comes a bit closer and that eventually, the flag will be captured, even if the whole team has died three times. :)

mistled

[Navaron]

I freakin loathe snipers but I can't argue with that logic. I still like the Idea of a special rifle to wack certain VIPs. (Like Hamma)

[mistled]

Hey Hamma,
You could see if someone would assign you a sniper mission to go take out that lake. :D :D :D :D :D

[�io]

I thought me and mistled ended this debate a few pages back. :confused:

Solution (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=18692&highlight=worthy#post18692)

:D

[cujoman39]

since theres no limit in how many people that can be maxs and there is no way to take them down without rockets or grenades etc. what is going to stop everyone from being a max.

Someone tell me!!!!!

[Unknown]

They're cumbersome, limited to 3 weapons (anti-infantry, anti-armor, anti-air), can't use special equipment (BANKs, ACEs, etc), and they can't pilot vehicles. You won't be able to fill many roles other than heavy offense/defense as a MAX whereas the other armors are more versatile.

[cujoman39]

so only the pilots aren't in MAX you hardly would see them anyway and what else do you need beside anti-infantry, anti-armor, and anti-air plus there not going to be cumbersome meaning they keep moving after you stop moving the mouse just slow giving them more accuracy.

And to the sniper debate i add, if the scopes are fixed meaning when you use it, you see max zoom so hitting anyone up close would be difficult. and with only a pistol up close and these so called invencible maxs running around that can't be taken down by bullets.

[Unknown]

My apologies. I meant limited to ONE of 3 weapons. They can't carry all 3 at once.

[cujoman39]

still they would be unstopable in groups of three let alone a squad.

[Incompetent]

Your forgetting the fact that they are incredibly hard to use correctly

[cujoman39]

whats so hard about using them correctly besides picking the right weapon.

[Hamma]

They aer slow and cumbersome, not everyone's cup of tea.

Whats to stop everyone from being an infiltrator, or a medic?!

They have disadvantages, walking 5km between bases would be a nightmare.

[Zatrais]

In my experience theres not manny who want to be a heavy trooper (heavy as in MAX). The slowness turns people away, esp when you consider that you can do much more in a reinfroced armor, use vehicles and carry more than 1 wep. But me personally i've always loved beeing the trooper whit the biggest gun :D

Forgott to mention that MAX's also can't use anny tools or things you can carry in your inventory. Might be able to use nades tho, not sure bout that.. Maybee Hamma could enlighten us? =)

[Hamma]

Pretty sure they can use nades - I dont see a reason why they would not be allowed to. Hell, they have the inventory space :D

[Zatrais]

hmm, cool...

VS MAX "flybye's" whit nade spamming that explodes on impact... homemade bombers hehe

[sPooT]

Originally posted by Zatrais
nah, keep iy going... lets see how manny dead horse picks hamma has :D

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