Is your SUV killing innocent people?

[�io]

SUVs are in a peculiar position in the American psyche these days. They are at once very popular and also despised; popular for their room, power and safety, despised for their gas-guzzling, more-power-than-is-necessary appetite. Now a familiar political and social commentator has decided the best way to attack SUV drivers is to accuse them of aiding terrorism. It that fair? Watch the video report above.http://www.msnbc.com/news/856312.asp



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If you visit the detroit project site make sure to look at the "Take action" banner on the top of the page, it has a very "interesting" animation. :)

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[Unregistered]

God I hate Hippies.

The Baby Boomers are ruining this country.

Does that stupid bitch realize that weather or not you use 50 gallons of gass or 10 gallons of gass a week the money all goes to the same place?

So everyone that has ever bought gass at any point in there life is supporting Terroeism? Give me a break.

What about the fact that the United States imports the majority of it's Oil from South America? Are the poor starving citizens of Venesula terrorists now? They don't deserve to be paid for there natural resources?

In the words of Mr. Gump "Stupid is as Stupid does"

[BLuE_ZeRO]

The only way my SUV is killing innocent people is when I drive up onto the sidewalk and run them over. :D

[�io]

Originally posted by BLuE_ZeRO
The only way my SUV is killing innocent people is when I drive up onto the sidwalk and run them over. :D

:lol:

[Airlift]

If I had a rocket launcher and 18 rockets, there would be 18 less SUVs on the road.

You can hate the hippies all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that buying 10 gallons of gas uses less depletable resources than 50 gallons. Whether money goes to the same place or not isn't the issue, the issue is the amount of money.

SUVs are good for a lot of things. However, Urbanites and Suburbanites should quit fooking to themselves about who they are and get their asses back in the minivan.

[Hamma]

My truck burns a shitload of premium gas, I guess i should get rid of it :(

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Yeah hamma or I'll run you over with my "people killer"

[Mtx]

Originally posted by Hamma
My truck burns a shitload of premium gas, I guess i should get rid of it :(

Give it to me. :love:

[Unregistered]

Being an American means driving a Big Ass gass guzzeling Beast. If you want to drive an SUV then go for it.

[Airlift]

Ahh yes, the root of all the world's animosity towards our country. We should all celebrate and embrace America's national persona as the fat pigs feasting blissfully on the rind of the earth.

[Unregistered]

And why shouldn't we?

This country was built on hard work.

Hard work pays off, and if I want that pay off to be a fat gass guzzeling SUV what's the problem? Am I really supposed to care what some Religous Fanatic with a towel on his head thinks about me?

Am I supposed to care what the lazy minority who sponges off my tax dollers thinks about my SUV?

Am I supposed to be concerned about some Green Peace Hippie who claims I am destroying the environment even though my SUV has fewer emmissions and better gass milage then their 1963 VW bus?

Explain to me again why I should care what the rest of the world thinks about me?


Let me tell you a little story about the Ghetto, SUV's, and Money.

There is a neighborhood in San Francisco called The Mission District. It is a poor area of the city mostly inhabited by illeagle aliens, dopers, and welfare recipiants. Durring the Dot Com boom many enterprising young people started bussiness in the Mission District because the rent was cheap there.

Those bussiness made money. Hired employees who spent money in the neighborhood. In a very short period of time the Mission went from being a run down area of town to not a bad place at all. The shops all had new paint. The dopers and gang bangers were gone, and the streets of the mission were safe.

Then a grass roots movement was started by residents of the area that didn't like Big SUV's owned by the Dot Com people taking up the limited parking in the area and they began to slash the tires of any and all SUV's in the area.

The Employees refused to work in an area where their cars were being vandalised, the bussiness left. Money stoped being spent there. The dopers and gang bangers returned to the street corners. The Mission is now a ghetto again.

More SUV's means that More Money is being spent not only on gass, but on other things as well. It is a sign of a better economy. More fuel efficent cars is a sign of a piss poor economy.

Say what you want but I'd rather live in a world full of SUV's then a ghetto.

[Nohimn]

Why don't they just find alternative power? Then we wouldn't need gas! ALT2RN1T3V2!!!!!! But really, this is just stupid. "I SUPPORT TERRORISM BEAUSE I USE 50 GALLONS OF OIL A WEEK BUT A GUY WHO USES 10 GALLONS OF OIL A WEEK ISN'T"..... this is just stupid.

[avail]

Bleh I personally don't care. Let people drive what they want to drive. Although I have to admit that all the mom's needing a big SVU now a days is pretty pointless, to each their own. It'll be interesting to see how the new hybrids do in the market.

[�io]

Originally posted by Airlift
Ahh yes, the root of all the world's animosity towards our country. We should all celebrate and embrace America's national persona as the fat pigs feasting blissfully on the rind of the earth.

Airlift i :love: you. You and people like you are the reason i like America and might even move there in the near futur. I get so sick of the loudmouth know-it-all idiot american, glad too see you're not one of them. :thumbsup:

[Unregistered]

Just as I get sick of the Loudmouth "We know better then you" Canadians.

[avail]

To tell you the truth, I'm sick of seeing internet people fight over USA vs. Canada. I took a road trip to Canada and realized how lucky we are as a nation to have such a kickass/friendly country to our north. I wonder if half the people who make fun of Canada have even been there.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Airlift
Ahh yes, the root of all the world's animosity towards our country. We should all celebrate and embrace America's national persona as the fat pigs feasting blissfully on the rind of the earth.

While we are at it lets ban all sporty cars (like the Miata ;) ) and any feature that has anything to do with power and performance. Heck lets end Nascar, Formula One and any other kind of automotive racing because they unecessarily waste fuel. Companies like Ferrari, and Lotus should be ashamed of themselves.

I love the enourmous jump the ad requires you to make in its logical argument, requiring you to assume that helping oil companies = aiding terrorists.

How about this; SUVs , while only 15% of the automobile market, constitute about 80% of the automobile profits. Remember the truth to old sayings like "What is good for GM is good for America." Buy more SUVs, it will stimulate our failing economy.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

It really doesn't matter if anyone has been there or not. How often are you going to strike up a conversation with a random canadian about half the crap we talk about.

The internet is a bad place to make generalizations about a country or a group of people. Unfortunately many canadians who frequent forums like this feel the need to voice their opinions about how they think they're better than us. It's like they have something to prove to us or something.

People need to realize that the comments we make towards said Canadians isn't solely directed at their country as a whole but mainly those mouthy few that seem to never know when to stop talking.

[Zumthor]

War between canada and U.S. = U.S. wins. Nut that doesent mean the U.S. is right, alot of people think americans are "big american pig-dogs", but canda cant say that, they havent earned the right, because candians = pussies.

P.S. Americans ARE big american pig-dogs

[Airlift]

Explain to me again why I should care what the rest of the world thinks about me?

How about because you are not the center of all things, but instead are a tiny little piece of the world community? The idea that previous generations of hard work have purchased some sort of immunity from social responsibility is ridiculous.

Yes, you are free to purchase an Escalade and if you want you could choose to let it sit in your driveway and idle 24 hours a day. Aside from the additional gas money you spend, you'll never in our lifetime feel the effects of our generation of gluttony. We're too busy living down the damage done by the last generation to notice the difference, to be sure.

On the other hand, your kids and grandkids are sliding deeper and deeper into the shit because of that attitude.

Am I really supposed to care what some Religous Fanatic with a towel on his head thinks about me?

Obvious racial stereotypes aside, you are under no obligation to care what that guy thinks, but at the same time you have no right to be suprised when he crashes a plane into your office building because you don't care. He'll be wrong as hell for doing it, but the attitude you're expressing helps to perpetuate the cycle of hatred and destruction.

Am I supposed to care what the lazy minority who sponges off my tax dollers thinks about my SUV?

Gut check, I don't take shit from your tax dollars. Neither do any of my friends or acquaintences. In fact, I assume that you're referring to welfare and government assistance when you break down, but wtf does that have to do with your SUV?

Am I supposed to be concerned about some Green Peace Hippie who claims I am destroying the environment even though my SUV has fewer emmissions and better gass milage then their 1963 VW bus?

Give me a fooking break. You can sit here all day and attack the people on the other side, or you can address the issue. Basically your argument seems to boil down to "Why should I care what anyone else thinks?" To which I guess I just return to the whole thing about how you aren't the whole world so you shouldn't act like you are.

Say what you want but I'd rather live in a world full of SUV's then a ghetto.

This is laughable, Unreg. SUVs had nothing to do with the Dotcom boom or revitalizing Mission Hill. That's like saying eating airplane food keeps jets from crashing. Never mind the fact that Mission hill rose and fell with the rest of the "New Economy". Trust me buddy, your SUV is not keeping the world above poverty level. Not even a little.

[�io]

Just as I get sick of the Loudmouth "We know better then you" Canadians.

:lol:

Glad you felt the need to attack me. Just thought i would point out my post had nothing to do with you or anyone else here, i was talking to Airlift.

And thanks Avail, right back at you(well minus said people "who make fun of Canada" :))!

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by avail
To tell you the truth, I'm sick of seeing internet people fight over USA vs. Canada. I took a road trip to Canada and realized how lucky we are as a nation to have such a kickass/friendly country to our north. I wonder if half the people who make fun of Canada have even been there.

I make fun of my friends all the time, that does not mean I don't appreciate their friendship.

[eMaGyN]

I dont think the discussion of SUVs would be in question if America improved its public transport systems outside of the cities and people took advantage of them.
More people using public transportation would solve a large number of problems that are vehicular related.

:love:
eMa

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Dio
:lol:

Glad you felt the need to attack me. Just thought i would point out my post had nothing to do with you or anyone else here, i was talking to Airlift.

Dio, if you didn't want people replying to your message you shouldn't have taken potshots at Americans.

[Zumthor]

I'm on your side airlift.

i dont actually hate candians. They have excelent skiing :love:

[BLuE_ZeRO]

:lol:

[eMaGyN]

ok...so this isn't about SUVs anymore...

well, i love canadians... because i love Dio.

-end-

:love:
eMa

[avail]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
I make fun of my friends all the time, that does not mean I don't appreciate their friendship.

Good friend you are :rolleyes:

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {{eMaGyN}}
ok...so this isn't about SUVs anymore...

well, i love canadians... because i love Dio.

-end-

:love:
eMa

Even the french Canadians? ;)

[BLuE_ZeRO]

If my friend says stupid I'll definitely say something back to him about it and I expect the same back from him/her.

[Airlift]

Leave it to Lex to bring my little car into the fray. I'll stand by my gas mileage, and I carpool whenever possible. I also get the added benefit of never driving a big group of people around, which the suckers in the SUVs always end up having to do.

SUVs are more than just gas guzzlers, they are a serious threat to anyone else on the roads or even in the parking lots of the nation. It's like a personal arms race where everybody wants the biggest car so when they smash into the other guy, he dies instead. So we end up with an army of people driving alone in huge trucks when they barely have the driving skills to handle a sedan.

[�io]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Dio, if you didn't want people replying to your message you shouldn't have taken potshots at Americans.

There's a difference between talking about general idiots and personally insulting someone. I never mentioned Unreg or any other person nor was my "potshot" direct towards them, i was telling Airlift that i think his views are awesome because a lot of what you see on the net from americans is the Explain to me again why I should care what the rest of the world thinks about me? attitude. I was just telling Airlift i think he rocks, I never attacked anybody here.

ok...so this isn't about SUVs anymore...

well, i love canadians... because i love Dio.

Back at ya babe! ;)

If you're ever in Quebec gimme a call. :lol:


And yes please let's stop this whole canada bashing thing and get back to the topic.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

The topic has been exhausted already. "Is your SUV killing innocent people?" Simple answer: NO! :mad:

[�io]

:p

Well the topic is more than just my question in the subject header. I wanted to know what people think about the ADs and why they should or should not be on air.etc

[Airlift]

Hrm, Sorry to have taken a wide tangeant then.

My opinion is that the ads are dumb as hell, but I think SUVs are pure shite perptuated by the domestic oil industry and the automakers, and gobbled up by porcine consumers. I don't care if they put them on the TV any more than I care that the drug czars are drawing the same connection between weed and terrorism. The simple fact of the matter is that if you can afford to make a commercial and put it on TV, you can do it. There are a ton of dishonest, misleading, or just plain idiotic TV ads. This is just more garbage for the airwaves.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

People don't buy SUVs for offroad purposes for the most part. They're people movers just like a mini van but people want other options than just a mini van. That's why people buy SUVs.

As for falling asleep on the road that has absolutely nothing to do with a SUV. People can fall asleep in any car and get in an accident. Cars are potential body bags unless you use them correctly. It's not just SUVs and if you think that you're retarded. People don't realize just how dangerous the car their driving can be. They do stupid things and innocent people get hurt. If you don't like SUVs don't buy one and stop bitching.

As for the ads they are just bs end of story.

[Unregistered]

Your right Airlift I am not the center of the world, and neither is the United States.

BUT The rest of the world keeps sticking there nose in my bussiness, and the rest of the world keeps coming in here telling me how my government should do things.

Tell ya what.

I don't care what anyone thinks about me, or the life I lead. If I want to get as fat as i can and have a Semi hual my ass from Buffet to Buffet while getting 2 miles per gallon what bussiness of it is yours or anyone elses?

What does Canada have to do with Americans driving SUV's?

How exactly is calling a ***** a ***** being racist? I never mentioned race once, but that is the typical libral additude when someone tells the truth. "Oh your a racisit". Last time I checked Islam was not a race it was a religion. What libral PC term are we using for Religous Fanatic these days? Turban/Towel? Would a rose by any other name not smell the same?

The whole point is the NO ONE in the world can seem to mind their own bussiness anymore. George orwell was scared of Big Brother, but little did he know it would be Little Brother that ruined the world.

And yes I will agree that the rise and fall of the mission was not due to the SUV. I was illistrating the point that people who don't have lash out against the people that do.

Talk all the shit you want, but I doubt any of the rest of you were ever Homeless and living under a bridge. I worked my way out of the gutter and now I have the good life. Cry me a river cause I could care less what anyone thinks about me. I got everything I have through hard work. Can you say the same?

And Dio....I no more attacked you personally then you attacked me.

Tell me why is it you insit to concern yourself with what is happening here in America? The only time I concern myself with Canada is when one of your loudmouth politicians starts bad mouthing the U.S.

[Zumthor]

Yeah, i think the main problem with SUV's is that people cant drive them. SUV's are built on truck beds, so they dont drive like regular cars, and since people who drive SUV's drive them like they are regular cars, they end up causing alot of accidents.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

That's true Zumthor. People need to realize what they're driving and learn how to safely handle one. That goes for any car and that's why they have those things called "Driving tests" to make sure you know basically how to handle one before they send you off on the roads. They need something like "SUV: This isn't a car" tests. :D

BTW unreg jesus that's a long post :eek:

[�io]

What about the hybrid aspect?

Anybody else think be it SUVs or not hybrids just = better?

I myself would like to have a clean planet for futur generations. :)

[Incompetent]

a guy that falls asleep driving an SUV can cause a shitload more damage then a guy driving a saturn.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Hybrids aren't better just yet but they're getting there. They also need to get better designers for their cars. What the hell were they thinking when they designed those? :huh:

[�io]

Yeah obviously they aren't Vipers or Ferraris but i meant concerning the whole gas/oil thing. That Viper is damn nice but it's still destroying the planet. :(

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Originally posted by Incompetent
a guy that falls asleep driving an SUV can cause a shitload more damage then a guy driving a saturn.

A guy driving a semi can do alot more damage when they fall asleep as well. Should we get rid of those? Hey if a pilot of an airplane falls asleep and crashes into something that would do alot of damage to. Let's get rid of planes.

The fact of the matter is that when anyone falls asleep behind the wheel they can do alot of damage regardless of what you're driving. The responsibility is on the shoulders of the driver to not fall asleep not the car manufacturer.

[Incompetent]

last i looked you had to do more then breath to get a pilots licsence or to become a truck driver.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Yes because they are more complicated to drive. That's why I said before that they needed a "SUV: This is not a car" test. They are quite different from cars and like I said people need to realize that but that is no reason to simply cease production of them.

Educate don't Eliminate :D

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Dio
Yeah obviously they aren't Vipers or Ferraris but i meant concerning the whole gas/oil thing. That Viper is damn nice but it's still destroying the planet. :(

Rofl

When I think of things destroying the planet, the Viper is not high atop my list.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

What's destroying the world? TOP 3

1. Hondas
2. Canadians
3. Viper

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Incompetent
a guy that falls asleep driving an SUV can cause a shitload more damage then a guy driving a saturn.

Not that this aspect of the argument is going anywhere, but...

If someone in any car falls asleep at the wheel and plows into my car, I would be better off in a larger vehicle.

[Airlift]

I never said you were a racist, I said you were expressing a a destructive attitude built on a racial stereotype. Furthermore, I wasn't talking shit to you. Like I said, you're free to do as you please, regardless of the social responsibility involved.

[Unregistered]

It doesn't really matter anyway.

I don't even own a car. I'm just sick of people bad mouthing SUV's.

[Hamma]

Well if we are gonna destroy this earth we may as well do it having fun.

/me goes out in his Lightning to pick up teh ladies

:brow:

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Airlift
If I had a rocket launcher and 18 rockets, there would be 18 less SUVs on the road.

You can hate the hippies all you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that buying 10 gallons of gas uses less depletable resources than 50 gallons. Whether money goes to the same place or not isn't the issue, the issue is the amount of money.

SUVs are good for a lot of things. However, Urbanites and Suburbanites should quit fooking to themselves about who they are and get their asses back in the minivan.

Ahh yes, The TYPICIAL Liberal attitude, You DONT DESERVE to be driving an SUV, get back in the VEHICLE WE say is right...

Man, I am really going to off here.... (deep breaths)

This is AMERICA, atleast where I am, and in America, if you can afford to drive a full sized SUV, I don't care if you are a 4'9" single woman living in downtown Chiago, thats your FREAKING right, to pursue your idea of HAPPINESS anyway you want as long as you arent breaking the law.. and since buying, owning and driving SUV's is LEGAL.. WOOT rock on baby.

ALso your comment about the worlds diminishing supply of oil....

When I was a kid, back in the 80's I watched,a nd believed I think it was a big 20/20 special report on how there was only 50 years of Oil left on the planet. That was at current consumption rates, the report even went on to say that we'd start feeling the pressure of less oil by 2000.

Well golly freaking gee whiz. There is, by current estimates, atleast 200 years of oil out there. Be it in the Middle east, Alaska, Siberia, South America or under vast portions of the earths oceans.. there is more then enough Petrolium out ther to, even at a 250% increase in oil use, to last 200+ years. That was from a big, liberal elitist collage study at that.

When was the last time you heard that oil was going becomming scarce because all the worlds well were drying up.. thats what I thought.

Bah, I will take a chillpill now, but that stuff really sets my teeth on edge.

[Hamma]

Threads like this are why I hate politics.

[Navaron]

Flaws flaws every where, and not a reason to read.....

First off, safety - If it's a safety issue where people in cars are killed more often than those in SUVs, why go to the lowest common denominator? I doubt anyone will question that people are safer in suvs, so why not get rid of cars? If everyone drives an SUV, then alot more people will be safe. You are 5 times more likely to survive a head on crash in an SUV than in a economy class car.

My boss was in a wreck last week. He drives an old honda accord. He was hit by a lady in a Jeep Liberty. The liberty is a small suv. He pulled out in front of her, as she was about 10 feet away. He is in the ICU, and still unconcious and will not walk for a year. The lady had to get stitched in her hand. His vehicle is totaled, hers is not. I would want my wife and mother in an SUV.

Secondly, Gas mileage compared to a car. An suv hold many more people than does a honda or saturn. I say that people who drive 2 seaters are doing worse than people who seat 8. I know the arguement that is coming. Well those soccer moms only drive by themselves and don't need the space. Whose right is it to say what they can drive and who they should have travel with them.

Third, Polution. The polution idea is a myth. Scientist have proven time and time again that global warming is a hoax. Just yesterday they released a study saying that the polar Icecaps melting have been doing so for 10,000 years, and will start to freeze again in 2-3,000 years. It's natural. I love all of these arrogant people who think that we (humans) are so mighty that we can alter every facet of the earth. Hell, we haven't even mapped the ocean floor.

Fact: there is less polution today than there was 8 years ago? Why? We haven't implemented any drastic laws? Hell polution standards have lessened. Because we are as mighty as we thought. Think of the most weird gross thing we as humans can make. It comes from the earth, so when it returns is it any suprise that nature finds it's own balance.

Oil is not a limited resource. Ocean oil wells that were drained 30 years ago are now 2-6% full again. Again, we have a problem with arrogance. We think we can come in and just stop nature and all of its proccesses.

Finally, we need a "this is not a car" lesson. People are as stupid as you seem to think. It is obvious that the vehicle is not a car. People who buy them are affluent enough to purchase them, therefore have enough foresight to notice that detail.

This is all a sumation of class envy. People who don't have them, hate those that do. It's just like cell phones. People who don't have one can't stand them. I don't have an SUV or a Cell phone. I drive a 94 honda civic that gets 33 mpg. I don't resent suv drivers. I also plan on getting a Bentley WX which gets 8mpg.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by {{eMaGyN}}
I dont think the discussion of SUVs would be in question if America improved its public transport systems outside of the cities and people took advantage of them.
More people using public transportation would solve a large number of problems that are vehicular related.

:love:
eMa

eMa, I luv ya hon, but the real problem with American's and Public Transportation is two fold. One, We love our cars. Cars = Freedom Freedom = the good ole USA.

Secondly, unlike, Europe, or say Japan, two places that have big Public Transportation systems... is that they arent THAT big...

In America, it is Not too unusual to find Johnny living in NYC while his parents stay in his home town of Atlanta... thus Johnny like to drive down and see his parents once, twice a year... See what I mean, we LIKE to travel in our own vehicles rather then fly or train or bus even... all ties back into that Car Culture...

Tahts why Public Transportation hasnt ever really taken off in the USA...

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Hamma
Threads like this are why I hate politics.

These threads make the blood flow Hamma! hehe tho it does get old when people turn them into personal assualt threads.

[Navaron]

Now if you do go to a large city like, NYC, Chitown or DC, you will find that they all have excellent public transportation systems. America does enjoy the convinience of public transportation when it is neccesary. You simply can't expect people to ride the metro in Omaha. It's not ready. I like DC's pub. trans. I enjoy it, because of the concentration of people per mile is high, like that of Euroupean cities. Places where it is not needed because there is "room" will get PT when they start to get crowded.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Airlift
Leave it to Lex to bring my little car into the fray. I'll stand by my gas mileage, and I carpool whenever possible. I also get the added benefit of never driving a big group of people around, which the suckers in the SUVs always end up having to do.

SUVs are more than just gas guzzlers, they are a serious threat to anyone else on the roads or even in the parking lots of the nation. It's like a personal arms race where everybody wants the biggest car so when they smash into the other guy, he dies instead. So we end up with an army of people driving alone in huge trucks when they barely have the driving skills to handle a sedan.

I am going to address your comment about SUV's making the roads more dangerous...

Let me take that logic to its NATURAL conclusion. There are, as I see it, 3 alternatives, if we were to use that as a basis for allowing/not allowing SUV's

1. Ban all SUV's. This way, the people in BOTH vehicles are at equal risk of dying.... gee you don't have kids do you? I do, and I would much rather themin an SUV then a station wagon that gets 50mpg

2. Buy EVERY"ONE an SUV... er... nah... while the roads WOULD be safer in terms of your overall chance of injury (Even in SUV vs SUV sollisions, you are more likely to survive then any other vehicle on vehicle collision) But then who'd pay for all that... nah nvm...

3. Leave it how it is.. those that can, and want one... let em drive em.... Ahh the AMerican way, freedom.

[Unregistered]

If you think about it logicly......

People should push for cars that get Less Gass Milage. he only way you will ever get a cleaner burning fuel is when Oil Companys can no longer make billions of dollers selling oil. The faster we use it up the faster alternative sources will be found.

[Navaron]

Neccesity breeds invention. Automakers will make what sells. There is no oil shortage and there is not reason to make an engine that runs more efficiently because todays engines are INCREDIBILY efficient. If ever car got 35 mpg, even the SUVs, then how much would you save a month, maybe 80 bucks? That won't pay for the incredible cost of the technology that would make it happen.

[MrVicchio]

The left continually redefines ethics for political expediency. That emotional component results because they are impervious to facts. Consider the following SUV myths:


1. Myth: SUVs are killing people at rate comparable to bubonic plague, slamming into small vehicles, causing death and dismemberment, and probably on purpose. Fact: If you're killed in a small car, it's probably because another small car hit you. 56% of all small-car fatalities involved only small cars. 46% of small car fatalities occurred when the driver hit something other than a another vehicle. Only 1% (that's 136 of 12,144 small car deaths) involved small car collisions with BOTH mid-size cars and SUVs. Small cars make up 9.3% of the cars on the road, but are involved in 53% of all accidents and 37% of all traffic fatalities. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety's director says, "If you want to solve the safety puzzle, get rid of small cars."

2. Myth: Small cars pollute less than big cars. Fact: The federal standards are the same for all cars and the regs are written in "grams per mile," not grams per gallon. No matter what the size of the car or its engine, it cannot pollute more than the federal-per-mile standards.

3. Myth: SUVs weigh more and have bigger engines. A Lincoln Town Car with a V-8 engine enjoys no wrath from the anti-SUVites despite its weight being nearly the same as or more than most SUVs. A Suburban is about 100 pounds more than a Tahoe but is perceived as more evil.

4. Myth: SUV drivers are more reckless and likely to violate the law. Fact: SUV drivers are the wimps of the road. Their profile: they make over $100,000 each year and many don't even know how to get their SUVs into four-wheel drive. The greatest risk for accidents, traffic violations, and fatalities comes from unlicensed drivers, not SUV drivers who are not only licensed and insured drivers, but also Einstein-Bagels-frequent-buyer-card carriers. If we really want to prevent fatal accidents we should simply wear seat belts.

The Sierra Club once referred to SUVs as "the Joe Camel of the auto industry," meaning that the SUV is the emotional focal point that puts an industry at the mercy of moralizing fussbudgets who seek zero population growth, mass transit, and cars powered ala Fred Flintstone.

The die is cast. False facts and emotion mean SUVs are under siege until we all paddle around in Neons. My family of six and I will require four blessed small cars (with air bags children can't ride in the front) to travel congested highways sans SUVs. But heaven awaits us.

[Unregistered]

Oil Companies have a history of buying up and supressing new technology for alternate sources of power. They have no need to make cleaner, cheaper fuel.

When they have a need for it they will make it.

[Airlift]

I was wondering how long it would take the GDub fans to come in here and bash me for touting social responsibility. Well, you called down the thunder so now you got it.

First, let's address my 'Typical Liberal Attitude', then we'll come back to the issue of SUVs.

You put the following words into my mouth:

You DONT DESERVE to be driving an SUV, get back in the VEHICLE WE say is right

It has nothing to do with what you do or don't DESERVE. Perhaps you didn't comprehend my argument or maybe you're trying to take it down to an easier position to combat. Either way is way off base. Social responsibility isn't a political convention, its a basic understanding that the things we do have an impact on those around us and on those who will come behind us to walk the earth. Oh lord, I'm such a pinko because I try to respect the fact that our planet is packed with other people whose opinions and actions carry as much weight as my own.

Now then, we move on to the Good Ole American Way...
This is AMERICA, atleast where I am, and in America, if you can afford to drive a full sized SUV, I don't care if you are a 4'9" single woman living in downtown Chiago, thats your FREAKING right, to pursue your idea of HAPPINESS anyway you want as long as you arent breaking the law.. and since buying, owning and driving SUV's is LEGAL.. WOOT rock on baby.

Like I've said repeatedly in this very thread, you do have those freedoms. You can buy a fleet of SUVs and run them all at the same time. So can the Soccer Mom and the single driver in Chicago. I wasn't talking about what's LEGAL or ILLEGAL. I was talking about what is RESPONSIBLE and IRRESPONSIBLE. It appears that we're having a problem differentiating.

I'll lump your infinite oil argument in with my forthcoming response to Navaron, but it doesn't matter how often you throw the words LIBERAL and ELITEST and various other ALL-CAPS terms, you're not going to pull this debate into the political arena. It about BASIC CONSIDERATION for your fellow man.

[Navaron]

"Oil Companies have a history of buying up and supressing new technology for alternate sources of power."

And they ship those technologies away in black helicopters flown by elvis to area 51 right? I'd like to see proof.

[Airlift]

I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments when I read Mr.Vicchio's Myths and Facts. I attest that you made every one of those up. You attribute the Myths to the LEFT and heap slander on top of them. Give me a break, can your argument get any more spurrious?

How about you cite your sources or stop inventing myths, facts, and statistics.

[Navaron]

First off, for a guy whose so adamant on confronting ideas, meet ONE of mine. Address it and prove it wrong. I also never used the word liberal or elite (i think). My political affiliations has little to do with you or my opinions. You can not know what I think because my voter registration says republican, and do not assume to.

Your social responsability is based on flawed logic. I am all for making the world a better place, and the fact is SUV's do that. They keep more people around and alive and have the exact same emision standards that all cars meet.

You need to point out for me where and how driving an suv is irresponsable, or morally appauling. I don't think you can show that driving a SUV violates "basic consideration" for your fellow man.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Airlift
I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments when I read Mr.Vicchio's Myths and Facts. I attest that you made every one of those up. You attribute the Myths to the LEFT and heap slander on top of them. Give me a break, can your argument get any more spurrious?

How about you cite your sources or stop inventing myths, facts, and statistics.


Talk about the thunder, I will, gimmie a min to go dig them all up, as a matter of fact, I DIDN'T write that.
But, I DID leave out where I got it, and ya know why? Cause I wanted to see if you what you would do. And you did, sadly as I expected.

You didn't find anything to refute it, just denied it all without a THOUGHT about maybe seeing if some of these facts were true.. and thus maybe you might alter your perception on the issue.

I do my homework, you don't. Facts Vs. Myth, and ATM, Fact is on my side. I am enjoying this tremendously, but please, for future sake, dont ever callme a liar agian unles you can back up your assertions that what I have posted as a fact is otherwise.

Thanx.

[Doobz]

America has a capatalist, free enterprise economy, where the public controls the factors of production, and the country is based upon freedome of choice, speech and all that.

well, the SUV isnt a dangerous, harmful, illegal product correct? so let the consumers choose, they have a right to in this country, and the retailers and suppliers have a right to supply any product that is not physically harmful or misleading

[Navaron]

I have to say, I heard most of mine on the radio today or read it in one of my papers. Regardless, it's true whether you believe it or not. I don't think you were confronting my facts anyway, but if you were trying to, then there ya go.

It would seem that your hat has fallen around your ears, you refute what I and Vic have said, yet have not *once* opposed a direct fact. It would appear to the onlooker like you have little arguement aside from personal sentiment. If you would be willing to confront any fact or post of mine, then I will gladly engage you, otherwise, I have little time for "well you don't know what you are talking about". If you wish to debate, then do so. Otherwise, I will call it a night.

[Navaron]

I like you airlift - you made my cool sig - "I was about to respond to Navaron's arguments " - well please do so.

[Hamma]

/me locks

[Navaron]

Hey!!! It's a free lounge, we have rights you know!!! (I know I know).

[MrVicchio]

ROFL Hamma...

/locks Haha.. eh wait.. he can do that can't he... ACK No don't dont! Thats not fair! :P

[Airlift]

I hadn't even gotten to you yet, Navaron. But since you're so eager, I will address your points.

First off, safety - If it's a safety issue where people in cars are killed more often than those in SUVs, why go to the lowest common denominator? I doubt anyone will question that people are safer in suvs, so why not get rid of cars? If everyone drives an SUV, then alot more people will be safe. You are 5 times more likely to survive a head on crash in an SUV than in a economy class car.

Except for pedestrians, cyclists, animals or anything else in the path of that Hummer over there. Nobody important tho.

My boss was in a wreck last week. He drives an old honda accord. He was hit by a lady in a Jeep Liberty. The liberty is a small suv. He pulled out in front of her, as she was about 10 feet away. He is in the ICU, and still unconcious and will not walk for a year. The lady had to get stitched in her hand. His vehicle is totaled, hers is not. I would want my wife and mother in an SUV.

First let me say that I'm sorry for your boss, he will be in my prayers. It is a shame that he was in an accident with an SUV. If he had pulled out in front of a Ford Fiesta, the outcome may have been different. That's kind of my point when I was mentioning the auto arms race. There is a big difference between making a car stronger and making it bigger, and it doesn't take an engineer to realize that. If you really cared about safety you would put your wife and mother in a volvo. I would put Vicchio's 6 kids in a Volvo wagon. Not only have they been consistently among the safest cars on the road, they don't roll over when their tires have problems.

Secondly, Gas mileage compared to a car. An suv hold many more people than does a honda or saturn. I say that people who drive 2 seaters are doing worse than people who seat 8. I know the arguement that is coming. Well those soccer moms only drive by themselves and don't need the space. Whose right is it to say what they can drive and who they should have travel with them.

You defeat your own argument here, and I agree with you that the vast majority of SUV owners don't need the space (or the offroad capabilities). Then you jump back to the issue of whether an SUV owner has a right to blah blah blah which I never argued against. See above posts please.

Third, Polution. The polution idea is a myth. Scientist have proven time and time again that global warming is a hoax.

WTF are you talking about? Note please that Pollution != global warming. I haven't argued either side on the issue of global warming, but we're talking about SUVs here, not whether or not the ice caps are melting. If you are saying that pollution is a myth then I don't think we're going to find commonality to agree on anything. If you think pollution is a myth, then either you've never been to or never been out of a big city. If you mean that it is a myth that SUVs produce more pollution than smaller cars with smaller engines, then you are overgeneralizing the issue anyway because it has at least as much to do with maintenance as it does with the vehicle itself.

Fact: there is less polution today than there was 8 years ago? Why? We haven't implemented any drastic laws? Hell polution standards have lessened. Because we are as mighty as we thought. Think of the most weird gross thing we as humans can make. It comes from the earth, so when it returns is it any suprise that nature finds it's own balance.

Here you seem to be arguing that since we're not mighty enough to destroy the earth by pollution that it is fine to pollute as much as we want. The thing is, the earth will go on and few people question that. The real question is will humanity go on along with it. That answer sure as shit isn't clear, but if we're going to destroy ourselves as a species, it won't likely be death by SUV.

Oil is not a limited resource. Ocean oil wells that were drained 30 years ago are now 2-6% full again. Again, we have a problem with arrogance. We think we can come in and just stop nature and all of its proccesses.

This is true in a sense, but not how you're calling it. Oil is not a renewable energy source, and I invite you to prove that it is. However, if and when we die off and millions more years pass, there will be lots of new fossil fuels for the next dominant species.

Finally, we need a "this is not a car" lesson. People are as stupid as you seem to think. It is obvious that the vehicle is not a car. People who buy them are affluent enough to purchase them, therefore have enough foresight to notice that detail.

Right, because wealth is a measure of intelligence. No wait, it isn't.

This is all a sumation of class envy. People who don't have them, hate those that do. It's just like cell phones. People who don't have one can't stand them. I don't have an SUV or a Cell phone. I drive a 94 honda civic that gets 33 mpg. I don't resent suv drivers. I also plan on getting a Bentley WX which gets 8mpg.

This is a priceless gem and I'm really glad you asked me to go point by point thru your post. I can afford an SUV. However, as I am single and have no children, I chose to purchase a sports car, which I primarily use to go back and forth to work. I don't resent people in SUVs. If I was a safari guide I would drive one. I think they are ridiculous in cities and suburbs. That's where I came in on this debate and that is where I'll leave it.

P.S. I have a cell phone and I still don't like yours. :D

[Airlift]

I do my homework, you don't. Facts Vs. Myth, and ATM, Fact is on my side. I am enjoying this tremendously, but please, for future sake, dont ever callme a liar agian unles you can back up your assertions that what I have posted as a fact is otherwise.

I will always refute supported argument that throws around fact vs myth. That isone of the oldest red herrings in the book. Just because you purposely left out your support to bait me into refuting it doesn't change the FACT that it was unsupported. So let's hear it then.

[MrVicchio]

Actually,

I think it is more like, you called me a liar. SO far, all you have done is rant about SUV's. I pulled up a pro-SUV tag off a website. You then called me a liar.. fine, instead of me proiving I am not making this up... REFUTE my "facts" otherwise.. this will go no where.

All I am asking is that you take a moment to look at the otherside. I just spent 30 minutes wading through ANTI-SUV sites, and most of them say the same thing. And most of them are based on emotions or faulty research. That much is certain. I am sick of this, and say, been fun, you get to go wade I am tired of it.

[Airlift]

It really doesn't matter that much to me if you support your argument or don't. Don't get mad at me for not taking it seriously tho if you don't. And in any case, I have not gone off throwing "facts" around that would require citing references, unless you count me saying that 10 gallons is less than 50 gallons.

And here's the real catch of it all: Commercial research and Statistics are only as good as the money that paid for them. Firestone and Ford both had studies that backed up their side of the whole "Whose fault is it that all the SUVs are flipping" lawsuit.

[Doobz]

mmm, i have a grand ole idea.

why dont we just let this thread die and return peace to the forums?

i say kill it now.

[Hamma]

Nobody will win this argument :(

[Civilian]

http://home.earthlink.net/~downloadhall/images/arguing.jpg

[MrVicchio]

WEll Hamma, if a certain person had gone AWOL from the PS Forums, I would be doing my NEWS job.. instead, I have been searching in vain for neigh on 48 hrs now and nary a word... first we get teasers about a flood of info.. then the river runneth dry....

This is just a distraction...

[Navaron]

Don't make fun of corky.

[Lexington_Steele]

Navaron, I just read your long post and it gave me a good hearty laugh. I have a few questions for you, all centered around the question of: Where do you come up with your facts and figures?

Where is this proof that global warming doesn't exist?
I ask you: Why were the hottest 5 years in the last 100 years all in the last 10 years? Do you even know what having melted polar ice caps would do? Do you even know why global warming is bad? Do you even know why global warming could be good?

Where did you get the idea that there is less polution today than there was 8 years ago? Where did you get the idea that humans can not have a drastic effect on their environment?

Where did you hear that oil is an unlimited quantity?

I could go on and on with the questions, but that is enough for now.

[Airlift]

Wait a second, what's wrong with a good argument anyway? I'm having fun with this thread, and I have been since the first post. It's not like I'm expecting everyone to move to the outback or sell their SUV. I'm not trying to hurt Mr.Vicchio's feelings and I'm sorry if I did, Vic.

On the other hand, I still think your SUV is lame, and it is hard to see around.

Allow me to present smilies to make everyone feel better :love: :D :) :D :) :D :eek: :eek: :love: :love::lol: :lol: :love: :cheers:

[Zumthor]

Good call, debates are fun and interesting, they stimulate you brain and force you to think, they also let you see other peoples sides of the argument. They are good educational fun!

Let the thread stay!:nazi:

:love:

[SandTrout]

I say the more suvs the better, it will destroy a major resorce faster and help my quest to end civilization as we know it.

Let people make their own decisions. If they wan't an suv, let them deal with the costs of gass and the annoyance of car-pooling. Us American "pig-dogs" are the most powerful bitches in the world because we alow our people to make their own decisions(with a few historical exceptions). People learn from their mistakes, and those who don't make as many of them get more money.Thats what this country is based on and that is what has made us the one supperpower in the world.

Though some of us may be pigs, at least we are strong, when other, more govorment controled countries, are not.

[Kyonye]

SUV's are good for nothing in this world. I always here about SUV caused accidents. I live in New York state. anyone who lives in southern NY, we've had some good snow storms. one storm we had, there were over 90 accidents on the New Jersey Tunrpike (big highway) and over 70 of them were SUV's. anyway who drives an SUV acts like they are in control of everything with their 4 wheel drive system and their extra few thousand pounds of aluminum alloy.

Two of my friends were killed by a F***ing SUV this past summer on a highway. the SUV thought that they could take a hard turn into another lane, side swiped my friends vehicle. They went off the road at around 70 m/hr and smashed into a tree. they both died instanstly and the car was crushed.

If your going to have an SUV, just go offroad with it like it was meant to be instead of going to the grocery store.

:nazi:

[SandTrout]

Or just don't be a compleat dumb*ss about driveing it...

[Navaron]

I know how to liven this thread up.....

SUV drivers would drive safer and slower if everyone had guns in the car with them. Think about it. :twisted: :flamemad: :flamemad: popcorn: popcorn: :cheers:

[Doobz]

no, steele, navaron is right, the threat of global warming is greatly exagerated.

MANY numerous studies have shown that this is a natural warming period in the earth's history and that the temperature increase rate has not deviated much for centuries.

[Lexington_Steele]

Doobz, show me a study that says these are normal temperature increases and I will show you one that says they are not.

Do you understand the threats/benefits that Global warming poses (And I am not talking about flooding)?

Do you understand how global warming works or how greenhouse gasses effect global warming?

[MrVicchio]

Ya know,

I had 5 friends in 3 different highschools killed in auto accidents... and all were driving small vehicles... WTF man we should ban all small vehicles cause they were the cause. Small, fast sporty camero type cars.. thats just wrong..

DRive em on the race track not to the grocery store.

And another parady (tho I REALLY did know 5 friends that died in HS)

Ya, and SUV's are a danger to pedistrians and bikes and.. I think airlift popped off with that gem...

It should read:

All cars are dangerous whenout of control, a danger to all..."

Not just SUV's... silly ppl with anger in their hearts.

[Airlift]

For those in the back seats, I didn't advocate banning any cars, trucks, vans, or motorcycles with side cars. I agree that vehicles of all sizes are dangerous weapons and should be treated with respect. Most are not.

But let's keep the context around my words, plz. I said that in response to the claim that SUVs make everyone safer.

[Lexington_Steele]

I find it very interesting that SUVs rarely show up on top 5 safest automobile reports.

P.S. Muchas gracias to Airlift for my shiny new sig!!!

[MrVicchio]

They did until that stupid rollover calculation was added. The thing about that is.. they make that determination not on any real test, but rather a mathmatical formula based on weight ditribution vs. wheel base... stupid really.

[Sputty]

I think the danger are the peoplpe driving them. Unlike trucks, which ar normally being drove with a purpose, SUVs are a status symbol. They're also big cars and can make people drive carelessly because their own safety isn't endagered as much. Also, hybrids or fuel-cells would alleviate the whole pollution issue but let's ee the oil companies let that happen soon...