1984/America

[Bighoss]

this is something that I was thinking about.
If you've read the Book 1984 by george orewell tell me if u agree

Political correctness=New Speak
Secruity Cams=Telescreens
CIA/FBI=Thought police
Constant wars=Wars between Oceania and Eurasia
Celebrities=Big Brother figures

If anyone else can think of anymore comparisions put them here because its kind of creepy how similar the worlds are but are masked with different names and the idea that we are "free" but hey it might not be a bad thing

[powdahound]

Try the forums at www.sparknotes.com :p

[MrVicchio]

Political Corectness means having to say you are sorry.

Its thought control and stifling of the truth to such a degree..

Bah I am not gonna go on.

[DarkJaguar]

political correctness=not allowed to have an opinion differing with the Majority.

[DarkJaguar]

gun control=a ploy by insecure hypocrits to disarm those around them.(many of the people that pretend to be anti-gun are actually registered gun owners)

[Navaron]

"Celebrities=Big Brother figures" Huh?

[Warborn]

Yeah, you better watch your ass or John Travolta will be all over you.

[SandTrout]

Have I not warned you in another thread? Stay armed, its the only way to fight a 1984 style gov.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by DarkJaguar
political correctness=not allowed to have an opinion differing with the Majority.

Actually, in the case of PC, its the MINORITY, not the MAJORITY.

[Navaron]

Bingo, the minority make the rules. I'm pissed, my college has over 10 black/minority scholarships.....RACE DISCRIMINATION anyone???? Fortunately, I read that according to the law, you can determine your own race. Serious. You can be white if you're black or vice versa. Anything you want. THere's no criteria.

[Warborn]

Sorry, white people can't be descriminated against. According to Political Correctness, we're still repenting for slavery, so black folk can get their own entertainment awards, television networks, radio shows, scholarships, and organizations to make sure The Man isn't sticking it to them, but if you even mention the same thing for white people, you're a racist, bigot, Nazi and you're going to burn in hell.

I've nothing against any race, but it's gotten to the point where black people aren't being given equality, they're being given perks. It's just like diehard feminists. They're actually looking for revenge, but they're masquerading it as equality. Not that all black people feel this way, of course, but the whole situation is going this way.

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by Warborn
Sorry, white people can't be descriminated against. According to Political Correctness, we're still repenting for slavery, so black folk can get their own entertainment awards, television networks, radio shows, scholarships, and organizations to make sure The Man isn't sticking it to them, but if you even mention the same thing for white people, you're a racist, bigot, Nazi and you're going to burn in hell.

I've nothing against any race, but it's gotten to the point where black people aren't being given equality, they're being given perks. It's just like diehard feminists. They're actually looking for revenge, but they're masquerading it as equality.

This is why I'm not a Liberal. Also, while white americans(or anglo-saxon in PC) are the largest ethnic group, they do not make up a majority of the population.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Warborn
I've nothing against any race, but it's gotten to the point where black people aren't being given equality, they're being given perks.

You have hit the nail on the head. It is not about equality it is about giving them perks. You will have less qualified people in the work place.

The problem is that we have groups that are economically worse off as a whole than white Americans. What will happen in this situation is that the groups that are worse off will continue to decline, while the better off groups will continue to become better off.

So what do you do? Allow minority groups to fall further or try to give them assistance. Some look at it as a survival of the fittest. Some would prefer to give the less fortunate assistance. Assistance means giving them better chances than someone equally qualified.

[Navaron]

HFS!!!!!!!!!

We all agree on something. I guaranfuckingty that this probably the only time we can all agree on something. It's nice, like a big disfunctional family sitting down on thanksgiving.....

[mistled]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
You have hit the nail on the head. It is not about equality it is about giving them perks. You will have less qualified people in the work place.

The problem is that we have groups that are economically worse off as a whole than white Americans. What will happen in this situation is that the groups that are worse off will continue to decline, while the better off groups will continue to become better off.

So what do you do? Allow minority groups to fall further or try to give them assistance. Some look at it as a survival of the fittest. Some would prefer to give the less fortunate assistance. Assistance means giving them better chances than someone equally qualified.

Dang it, I thought we were on the same page for a minute, but for some reason, I kept reading. :)

If minority groups were in a situation in which they were falling farther and farther behind, they would not have the same chances as others. Assistance should be something that is given to increase and equal out the opportunities that someone has, but I see no need for the assistance of one person to be the automatic hindrance of another.

If I help a white person, I am a racist. If I help a black, I'm a hero. Both are lies. If I help a person, I am simply a man trying to do the right thing.

mistled

[MrVicchio]

Hmmm....

I am going to bite the bullet on this one here...

Take African Americans... Too many come from poor inner cities and single parent homes. Too many are barely given a 6th grade education... and too many of them get jobs, collage scoalerships and the what not, to help them out (If I could find the DMANED link I would, that shows that a large portion of minorites as a whole that get those AA "perks" fail collage and or fail in the real world because they were given such a poor start in life)

What do the Democrats, champions of the minorites do to solve this? More AA and more money to "help" these kids... What do Repulicans want to do? Give them vouchers so they can get REAL education as kids and REALLY make a difference...

Here is my big issue on all of this, The real answer lies not in giving them "Perks" IMHO that is saying "You cant succeed without help, you arent good enough." That is demeaning, wrong and bigoted. I believe fully in "Here are the tools, take them and make a life for yourself, you don't need help, you can do it, just take the ball and run with it" Sadly, that is considered racist while the liberal view is considered PC good! WTF?

BTW Racism is evil, wrong and has no place in this world, anyone that believes in that crap.. dshould be shot.

[Warborn]

So what do you do? Allow minority groups to fall further or try to give them assistance. Some look at it as a survival of the fittest. Some would prefer to give the less fortunate assistance. Assistance means giving them better chances than someone equally qualified.

What sort of minority are you referring to?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio

Here is my big issue on all of this, The real answer lies not in giving them "Perks" IMHO that is saying "You cant succeed without help, you arent good enough." That is demeaning, wrong and bigoted. I believe fully in "Here are the tools, take them and make a life for yourself, you don't need help, you can do it, just take the ball and run with it" Sadly, that is considered racist while the liberal view is considered PC good! WTF?

So you believe that they will all be able pull themselves up by their bootstraps? I am sure that some will, but most will not.

If I get a college scholarship I don't thing to myself, "Hey, they are demeaning me and I can do on my own." rofl

When I get a loan or a scholarship I don't think about what cosmic message the bank or school is trying to send me. I think about what I want to do in school or how I am going to use the money.

Personally, I don't see it as racist or not racist. I think the "you should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach as a bit cut throat but still valid. I prefer the, "I see a social inequality and want to take steps to fix it."

I really hope you don't find it strange when minority groups aren't praising you for intentionally NOT trying to help them out.

[Incompetent]

omfg i actually think i agree with Navaron/MrVicchio on something not related to PS. I remember when i lived in New Orleans a female black teacher threw a desk at a kid in my little sisters class and they couldn't fire her because they would look like racists, i cannot stand that crap. But the sad fact is that racism is embedded in our society and as long someone even thinks they can exploit the fact that someone who lived 400 years ago had a bad life to get ahead, it is not going away.

[Lexington_Steele]

BTW the moment it becomes a political argument of Democrats v. republicans we are talking about something different.

Politics is rarely humanitarian and most democrats are for affirmitive action for the votes it gets them.

Doing what is right and playing politics are two very different animals.

[Lexington_Steele]

BTW how did we get from George Orwell to Afirmative action?

[Incompetent]

Thought police i believe.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
So you believe that they will all be able pull themselves up by their bootstraps? I am sure that some will, but most will not.

If I get a college scholarship I don't thing to myself, "Hey, they are demeaning me and I can do on my own." rofl

When I get a loan or a scholarship I don't think about what cosmic message the bank or school is trying to send me. I think about what I want to do in school or how I am going to use the money.

Personally, I don't see it as racist or not racist. I think the "you should be able to pull yourself up by your bootstraps" approach as a bit cut throat but still valid. I prefer the, "I see a social inequality and want to take steps to fix it."

I really hope you don't find it strange when minority groups aren't praising you for intentionally NOT trying to help them out.

Dont you GET IT??? If you are given a scolarship, just because you are "x" minority, and not because you earned it...

How can I say this that would make sense to you... Look, what good is giving a kid that can hardly read a scolarship? A job to an unqualidied person, just because they are XX.

I think it boils down to YOU SEE them as down on thier luck, all falling by the way side. I see them being deprived of GOOD Schools, and REAL educations that forces them to have to rely on "favors" from those who would give them "helping hands" Oddly enough, its that same group that opposes meaningful reform in schools and school vouchers.... hmmm.....

[Lexington_Steele]

What is a voucher going to do for an inner city child? First they have to get into those private schools. Second, they would have to find a way to commute to said schools.

Just because someone gets a minority related scholarship does not mean they can't read.

Why do you assume that all the people recieving these benefits are a bunch of nincompoops. I think that is alot more demeaning than giving assistance.

If you have 9/10 people who got scholarships fail out, then you still had 1 that didn't. That is one more minority college graduate than their would have been without the assistance.

[MrVicchio]

Lex, go doa google search on the MILWUAKEE VOUCHER PROGRAM. That right there was started by a poor, single black mom in the inner city (She relaly was the spark that got it going) and lok at the SUCESS!)

Your example of 9/10 failing but one success. BS Liberal Feel Good waste of money Bigotry. 1 is not good enough, No I say thats an UTTER failure. It should be 6/10 MAKING IT. And where does this start, the schools. THATS where it starts. And thats where forr too many kids it fails.

[Lexington_Steele]

These vouchers means that the private schools are required to overlook a students prior school record, hence the less competant student gets into the private school. How is that different than offering minorities scholarships?

Why is ok to institute a type of affirmative action at the grade school level but not at the collegiate level?

After reading up on the Milwaukee Voucher Program I fail to see how this is really different than affirmative action which you seem to be staunchly against.

BTW with regards to the 1/10 scenario concerning college scholarships college scholarships, who lost money? The University offered it and then did not have to provide sevices for that student. It is not like the money magically dissapeared.

In fact, since there is apparently a going rate of failure for these students, the University can plan accordingly and admit more students than they normally would have, based on those rates.

University would be in the same finacial situation as it would have been otherwise, and one more minority student found success where they normally would not have.

[MrVicchio]

HOW THE F!@# do you relate Vouchers with affermitive action?? Vouhcers are for POOR kids in failing schools to have a chance at a good scool and to suceed. The only thing that is a requirement.. your parents are poor and you are in a bad school. Grades matter not one Iota.

BTW Those collage scholarships... think about this... you have lets say 1000 kids sign up for X collage. X collage has 100 spots open... but to maintain Diversity they allocate 25 slots to minorities right off the bat... bam.

Then they set aside another 25 slots for scholarships... Bam 50 slots gone.

Now the free 50 go to those that earned it.. period and right on.

Now, the nest 25 go yo JUST the top performing minorities....

Now the last 25 go to a certain group, reguardless of thier Academic potential.. and lets say 15 of those drop out thier first year...

Do you see a problem there? The discrimination? The denied cahne to one group wasted on someone else that wont succeed cause they arent ready to be in collage?

Sigh..

[Lexington_Steele]

Knowing the going rate of the minority drop out, the college allocates and additional 15 slots.

You see how this works. The college will accept and extra 15 "regular" applicants. You see it as 25 slots being unfairly given when 15 of them will drop out.

College acceptance boards are very aware of these rates, and the spots that the 15 dropouts left will have been filled in advance. If not in advance they will be filled with transfer applicants the next year.

As far as the comparison of vouchers to scholarships set aside for minorities: A scholarship like this often allows a less competant student into the university. With a voucher, a private school is going to allow a less competant student into the private school. How do you not see a similarity? Why is one ok and the other not?

Do you really feel that white middle class America is so unbearably repressed by these scholarship policies?

[mistled]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Knowing the going rate of the minority drop out, the college allocates and additional 15 slots.

You see how this works. The college will accept and extra 15 "regular" applicants. You see it as 25 slots being unfairly given when 15 of them will drop out.

So why should they let these 15 in to start with?? Shouldn't the one in ten be able to get in via regular scholarships??

Just seems pretty discriminatory to me to assume that the minorities will fail by allocating 15 extra slots when you know you won't be able to keep everyone.

[MrVicchio]

Lex.. one tinsy weensy thing you missing about the vouchers... Scholastic Achievement, or LACK of it, has ZERO to do with who gets a voucher. It is all about parental income and schools over all performance. MY kids, would qualify based on my pay ATM.... Yes White kids DO get vouchers!

No, I do not feel threatened by the AA at collages, I think it just shows how muffed up the system is. Collages are about eduacting the best and the brightest. And whent he best and the brightest (NO MATTER WHO THEY" ARE OR WHERE THEY" CAME FROM) cant get into a college because they have to reserve a slot for a less able person because of thier skin color.. that offends me.

[Incompetent]

Why do you think its ok to give the poor black guy a chance and throw the poor white guy out on his ass. They should never, ever allow color into it. I wouldn't have a problem with them reserving a spot for a person in a certain tax bracket but as soon as they say it is only for a black person in the same position it becomes wrong, imho of course.

[mistled]

And let's not confuse the idea of vouchers for primary and high schools with AA in colleges. Simply because of the different premise behind college (that academics do play a role, wherein they do not in what high school you attend), the comparision should not be made.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Incompetent
Why do you think its ok to give the poor black guy a chance and throw the poor white guy out on his ass. They should never, ever allow color into it. I wouldn't have a problem with them reserving a spot for a person in a certain tax bracket but as soon as they say it is only for a black person in the same position it becomes wrong, imho of course.

The thing is that the white guy is less likely to be poor percentage wise. Yes it should be judged on a case to case individual level, but the country is just too big to be able to do something like that. So you implement a policy that is based on trends and percentages and you adjust that policy as the tredns andpercentages change.

When social equality is achieved, there is no longer any need for any kind of racial based assistance.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
And let's not confuse the idea of vouchers for primary and high schools with AA in colleges. Simply because of the different premise behind college (that academics do play a role, wherein they do not in what high school you attend), the comparision should not be made.

Private schools are competative. Acedemics do come into play.

[mistled]

If the kids are started with vouchers when they are young, grades will not be a deciding factor. Then, when they reach higher grades, they will have the education to be able to compete academically with anyone.

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Private schools are competative. Acedemics do come into play.

Not the ones that get vouchers.. thats one of the requirements.

[Incompetent]

The thing is that the white guy is less likely to be poor percentage wise
So, you are going to screw a guy out of a college scholarship that he worked his ass of to get because there are less poor people who look like him?

[Lexington_Steele]

Mr Viccho, I think i see where you are coming from with the vouchers. You would prefer a system based purely on economic status. I hear that, but that does not address the issue of social inequality between the races which is what these types of scholarships are supposed to address.

Now you might reply that: the races that are worse off will recieve these benfits more frequently than the ones that are doing better.

Then I reply: well if it is social inequality between the races that we are trying to correct, why would we take race out of the equasion. Remember that affirmative action's purpose is address social inequality between the races, not the classes. Take race out of the equasion(like replacing scholarships for minorities with vouchers for the poor), then you are taking a round about way of solving a racial issue.

[MrVicchio]

Question:

Why is there inequality between the races?

Why should the GOVERNMENT take any action?

Would not superior schooling be the best long term answer to any inequality?

Would it not offend YOU if you were XX minority, and were told you CANNOT succeed without someone elses help?

[Incompetent]

Equality between races means that race is never considered in anything, not that there is a specific % of each race of people at every economic level. Trying to balance out the races the way you suggest is state sanctioned racism.

[RandoM]

*RandoM wonders where all the black members are*

[Navaron]

I changed my Fafsa today, I'm already in and got some grants because I'm frikkin poor and becaue I bust my ass and learn shit wherever I go. I changed my fafsa so that I am now an "African American". I applied for all 14 black scholarships, and if I don't get accepted bc they find out I'm white, I will call the ACLU, and channel seven faster than you can say "Bigot policies". I used to mark other, and put Scottish American, but I never got anywhere with that. Hey, I'm as Scottish as these guys are African.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
Question:

Why is there inequality between the races?

Why should the GOVERNMENT take any action?

Would not superior schooling be the best long term answer to any inequality?

Would it not offend YOU if you were XX minority, and were told you CANNOT succeed without someone elses help?

Like I said in my first post regarding this subject, I understand the survival of the fittest approach when looking at this matter, I just think it is a bit too cut throat for my tastes.

*Why is there inequality between the races? Because of decades of descrimination following decades of slavery.

*Why should the government take action? That is a tougher one and has two elements:

1)There is the realword element where I feel that the government should take a role in fighting social injustice. There are many people that feel the same way I do.

2)There is the political aspect of why the government should take action. Plain and simple supporting affirmative action gets minority votes. Votes get you elected. Hence government officials will continue to support affirmative action to keep themselves in office.

*Yes, I thing that more funding for schools would be a good thing. Cutting education to give tax cuts for the rich is not. The thing is just because you improve education does not mean the problem is instantly solved. When the socail inequality is gone, so will the affirmative action.

*It is the reality that minorities do worse economically that is so offensive. I see affirmative action as something that gives someone hope that they can more easily pull themselves up by their boot straps (that their efforts will more likely find success).

If I offered you an easier way to economic success, would you really find it offensive? If I told you that I could get you a 6 figure job at my fathers company would you realy be offended? I am sure my father could find more qualified people than you for this undisclosed line of work. Does this offer mean I am calling you incapable of finding a six figure salary?

[MrVicchio]

Hmm...

Okay, The slavery thing, give it a rest. That one is dead and buried by how many generations now? The average black in america has a QOL higher then blacks in ANY other country.. period.

As for the education thing.. again, you busted out that tax cut for the rich thing.. do you understand how taxes work?

More money isn't the onyl answer. We need to revert education back about 50 years. Hard work = Sucess, not Feel good about yourself "its okay Johnny that you thought 4 + 5 = 20, as long as you feel GOOD about yourself you get an A" That would go a LONG way towards solving problems.

As for your employment issue... heres my Question in rebuttle.. why would you NOT hire the best qualifed person? Hmm?

[mistled]

If I offered you an easier way to economic success, would you really find it offensive? If I told you that I could get you a 6 figure job at my fathers company would you realy be offended? I am sure my father could find more qualified people than you for this undisclosed line of work. Does this offer mean I am calling you incapable of finding a six figure salary?
If we were friends and you got me in, then no, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's called favortism. It's not fair, but it's life.

But... if you told me that you were only doing because of my skin color and for no other reason, then I would tell you to shove the job up your ass and go pity someone else. You see, if the only reason you give me a job is because of my skin color, then you must have some predetermined idea about people of my race. You must think we all need your help or you would just be looking for someone to help regardless of race. It's the idea that you know nothing about me except my race and yet you would have the nerve to assume that I must need your help. For all you know, the person you offer that job too is someone who doesn't need it. But you would never know that, because all AA cares about is the color of a person's skin.

Where's Martin Luther King when you need him??

mistled

[Lexington_Steele]

The tax cut for the rich thing was just some bonus ribbing for you. Obviously tax cut for the rich does not equate to cutting education.

Blacks are not succeeding percentagewise the way whites are. What would say is the reason for this?

Why would I not higher the best qualified person is not the issue. I was showing you how making it easier to find success is not a slap in the face. If you want a reason why I would not hire the best qualified person, I would do it to help a friend out.

Originally posted by MrVicchio
The average black in america has a QOL higher then blacks in ANY other country.. period.


But it is not as high as whites. So blacks should be content having a lower average QOL than whites? Are you trying to say that blacks are inferior and that is why they are unable to succeed? I don't see anyother route you could be traveling with a comment like that. Hopefully I am missing something. If you aregoing that route you are entitled to you opinion, but we should drop this discussion.

[MrVicchio]

Actually Lex, hate to break this news to ya, but.. and again its late, I am gonna crash in like 5 min, but go do a google I will in the morning, and I found 3 Major studies showing the number of middle class blacks is much higher then you might imagine. I will NOT quote a number cause I cant remeber... but the whole all balcks are inheriently poor thing is no longer applicable.