Because I need the amusement..

[MrVicchio]

Hey Dio.. please explain why capitalism sux (this IS the right thread tho Hamma's not gonna be hamma-happy ah well.. :P)
I need a goood laugh atm.

[Unregistered]

Die Capatalist American Pig Dog!!

[�io]

Egads! :eek:

Too lazy and hungry right now. Basically i just think a system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (that a word?) isn't right. Add to that the fact that if you're rich you can more or less do what you want and get away with it and it seems we could come up with a better system that would promote equality not corporate fat cats and money grubbing industries. :)

Or do you think it's right to pay around (dunno figures) 50grand a year to the people who are teaching and inspiring our futur generations but pay 20million so some guy can pretend he is a secret agent in some movie or 8million or more so a guy can throw a ball really far.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

They're not forcing people to pay them those salaries though. People are willing to dish out ass loads of money to see a person throw a ball far or pretend to be a spy. If people don't like it they won't support it.

[Unregistered]

It's not a system where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. It's a system where the harder you work, the more you get.

So the better your work etheic, the more educated you are, if you strive to get a head in life, you will.

Bill Gates was not borm wealth. He worked hard, started a bussiness and is sucessful.

The poor get poorer only because they are lazy, and will not work hard enough to get richer, and don't even start on how the poor have no oppertunities and can't get a leg up without the governments help.

I was a homeless person. Dead fucking broke and living in a car. It didn't take Socialist Government handouts to get me off the street. It took hard work.

I now enjoy a really nice job where I am paid really, really well.

The poor (me) got Richer. Thanks to Capitalism!!

[MrVicchio]

The system itself is fine, its people that screw it up.

I love that line btw about the rich getting richer and the poorer..

Why are rich people rich?

Hmm.. well some were born into it, true.. damn the bad luck to be born rich!

But a LARGE portion of rich people WORK to be rich! Thats right, omg what a concept!

As for the teachers making X and actors making XXXXX...

Teachers are poorly paid because the average Joe takes about 0 initive to hold the school boards accountable. Teh teachers are all tied up in ignorant teachers unions where the teachers are poor and the administrators are rich.. thats stupid.

Besides, if you took away the chance to become rich, why then would you work harder? Why work at all if you are given what you need? Why would anyone spend 2 years toiling away to make a video game? For the love of it... I think not.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Dio

Or do you think it's right to pay around (dunno figures) 50grand a year to the people who are teaching and inspiring our futur generations but pay 20million so some guy can pretend he is a secret agent in some movie or 8million or more so a guy can throw a ball really far.

Thank You Dio!!

You have just proven why Capatalism is better. The people that make 8million for a moive are not government employees. They are Capatalists making money from there talents. Socialism prevents teachers from making a fair wage.

Private teachers that work harder to get better at their jobs make considerbly more money then a Public School teacher.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Funny how money makes people work harder :D

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
The system itself is fine, its people that screw it up.


Rofl. Almost any system works in theory and it is always the people who screw it up.

What is needed is a propper balance between socialism and capitalism.

Pure capitalism doesn't work, pure socialism doesn't work.

Now finding where that balance of how much freedom versus how much regulation is the hard part.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Thank You Dio!!

You have just proven why Capatalism is better. The people that make 8million for a moive are not government employees. They are Capatalists making money from there talents. Socialism prevents teachers from making a fair wage.

Private teachers that work harder to get better at their jobs make considerbly more money then a Public School teacher.

You do realise that we don't live in pure capitalism. For example, We have institutions like minnimum wage. Minimum wage is in no way Capitalist.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
I love that line btw about the rich getting richer and the poorer..


Mr Vicchio, this is not necessarily a good thing.

What happens when the poor have become the majority and the poor refuse to be poor anymore?

Revolution.

One of the purposes of Government is to create stability. A system that has no check on the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer is doomed to fail.

[Navaron]

It's funny, poor Dio is out in his little left wing land, minding his own business and he gets blindsided then his this thread gains 10 post b4 he can come back.

Anyway, just like communism, you can't make people work for nothing. Capitilism works because of this, they won't work for 4 bucks an hour. When no one can hire people, they'll pay higher wages. The hardest working people here get the best rewards in this system. Nothing makes me madder than seeing some sob spend 200 bucks in foodstamps on lobster and steaks, then break out his own money to pay for 100 bucks worth of booze and smokes. I hate it more than I can say.

I'm also against minimum wage. It's socialism, you're right on with that. If it weren't around, I'd be making even more money.

[MrVicchio]

Lex.. you are right, but see.. in America, that willnever happen.. Why?

Cause while there are some dirt poor people, and I feel for em.. Even the poorest man can become rich. The rich do not hold the poor people down, the poor peopel hold themselves down. I aay that in a general sense. A poor man that is happy living on say welfare will never be rich... where as the poor kid that tries has a chance to move up...

The day the rich say "Thou art poor, and thou stay poor for eternity" is when revolution will come, but that wont happen inAmerica, land of Oppurtunity.

[Navaron]

Besides, our streets are made out of gold. If you need a house, just hack off a chunk of the side walk.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio

...but that wont happen inAmerica, land of Oppurtunity.

but hopfully not the land of "equal-oppurtunity." right? ;)

But seriously, you don't need comments like, "let them eat cake," for the working class to flip the system upsidown. Infact, the opurtunistic capitalist will even support such a revolutionist movement if it will buy them power.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
I'm also against minimum wage. It's socialism, you're right on with that. If it weren't around, I'd be making even more money.

God forbid that someone working 40-70 hours a week can earn a living wage.

[Airlift]

I agree with Hamma :D :rolleyes:

[Navaron]

"God forbid that someone working 40-70 hours a week can earn a living wage."

HUH???

IF you can't make a living with those hours (70 isn't as excessive as you think) - ***NEWSFLASH*** Get a different job. It's not tough. People will always pay a hardworker more than a lazy one. I'd say if you worked about 70 hours a week that you're committed at least. It all solves it's self.

I'm sure you're going to say that if there was no MW that employers would pay 2 dollars an hour because they could get away with it. That's not true entirely. In some cases businesses would try that, but those businesses wouldn't last long, because all I would have to do as a competitor is pay a few bucks more and I would take your entire work staff. The best quality products and services come from those with the best initiative to work, money is that initiative.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
[BIF you can't make a living with those hours (70 isn't as excessive as you think) - ***NEWSFLASH*** Get a different job. It's not tough. [/B]

Easy for you to say.

While I was working in a kitchens, I knew a ton hispanic guys that work harder than anyone I have ever seen. These guys were making minimum wage. Most of them worked 70+ hours a week. They had to keep two full time jobs because neither of their jobs would allow them to go into overtime. These guys busted their asses, but were never getting more than minnimum wage. I can guarentee if there was no minimum wage they would have been making even less.

And I do think that 10 hours a day, 7 days a week is excessive.

70 hours a week at $5.25 for 52 weeks (pretty much 10hours/day, 365days/year) is only a hair over $19,000.

Now I just feel that someone who has to work that hard, that many hours of the week, that many days a year, deserves atleast $19K.

Are you against unionization too? If the minimum wage loses you money than I am sure that unions are raping your pocketbook.

[Navaron]

Hey, Unions don't touch my money. They were good back in the day, but they've outlived their usefulness. I'm a pilot so when I hit it big, I've got no choice to join a union if I get hired at a unionized airline....but look how well that's working out for them.

And about your friends from the kitchen, if they want to stay in those jobs and work there they can. I'm willing to bet however, that in a true free market society, if they are as hard working as you say, they'd get grabbed up for a pretty penny very quick.


I've hired a lot of people in my times, and I know that some people are not worth 5.15. I also know that those same people would work their asses off to get paid more if they weren't gaurenteed 5.15.

Look at wait staff. If you go to any decent restraunt where the waitstaff receives a tip, they work as hard as they can to do everything right for your dollar. Now look at BK or MCDonalds, how many times have you gotten the/a wrong/cold/gross/unsanitary order with a/n attitude/disrespectful/repulsive attitude by a disheveled/unkept/lazy sob? A whole lot more than at the restraunt where you *earn* your money.

[Lexington_Steele]

I am not arguing that profit doesn't provide motivation. I am not entirely against capitalism. I just believe that there should be a minimum that people can be paid. Like I said before, a balance of freedom and regulation.

I fail to see how eliminating the minimum wage would get people who are working for minimum wage more money.

[HotDogTommy]

Especially now. The job market, here anyways, is completely saturated. I know places (I've worked at em) that would be more than happy to hire people for less than 5.15 an hour. And right now, the market is completely capable of letting that happen. If your choice is between 3.00/hour and nothing/hour, what are you going to do? You take the 3$ an hour and then sell blood to help make rent.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Easy for you to say.

While I was working in a kitchens, I knew a ton hispanic guys that work harder than anyone I have ever seen. These guys were making minimum wage. Most of them worked 70+ hours a week. They had to keep two full time jobs because neither of their jobs would allow them to go into overtime. These guys busted their asses, but were never getting more than minnimum wage. I can guarentee if there was no minimum wage they would have been making even less.

And I do think that 10 hours a day, 7 days a week is excessive.

70 hours a week at $5.25 for 52 weeks (pretty much 10hours/day, 365days/year) is only a hair over $19,000.

Now I just feel that someone who has to work that hard, that many hours of the week, that many days a year, deserves atleast $19K.

Are you against unionization too? If the minimum wage loses you money than I am sure that unions are raping your pocketbook.


This is a perfect example of how democrats help to keep the poor people from getting any richer.

Take for example your story vs my own experience in the same situation. I once worked at a shitty job with a few Mexicans. They were without a doubt the hardest workers that I have ever seen in my life. They would work from dusk until dawn. The only problem is that they were all illiterate to the english languge.

For them to be able to move ahead in their line of work and become anything more then a laborer that was treated like shit, and paid next to nothing they had to be able to speak, read, and write English. Infact the ones that made the most, and even advanced further then I did did so because they spoke fluent English, and Spanish.

It was not "The Man" keeping them down. They kept themselves down by not working harder to get the set of skills they needed to advance in their carrers. There will always be plenty of people with strong backs that will do labor intensive jobs. You have to work with your mind as much as your body to get any where.

One of my friends took my advice and started going to night school. He worked very hard all day long, and then worked harder at night to get an education. He is now making 80K a year running the maintenece crew at a 400 unit apartment complex.

Had he not worked hard to enable himself to get into a better position he would not be where he is today.

Now you ask "How does this have anything to do with Democrats?" Well the reason he had to go to night school and learn english is because of a Democrat sponserd education system in California that teach "Bi-Lingual" education. That means it is "Culturally Wrong" to teach mexican kids in English, so all there schooling is done in spanish.

So even though he had been given the same education oppertunities as a child that I had been given, he was left at a serious dissadvantage by the fact that he was never tuaght to speak english.

When the voters of California voted to get rid of bi-lingual education the Mexicans and the Democrats shoot it down. The poor indeed keep themselves poor. It's not the system, it's their own doing.

[Bighoss]

Captialism is great not everyone gets to enjoy it though. Not everyone can be rich and thank god everyones not poor and it would suck if everyone made the same amount because then theres no reason to work harder than the guy next to you. Oppertunity FOR ALL except for the lazy.

[Lexington_Steele]

ROFL, you blame "Democrats" for poor people existing.

Your friend that was making $80K dollars was the exception not the rule.

Some people just don't have the time to work a 70 hour week, take care of their kids, and go to night school.

[Unregistered]

No I blame Democrats for preventing poor people from having the necassery tools to work there way out of poverty.

My friend was not an exception to the rule. He's the proof that Hard Work pays off, and that poverty is not a social problem but a personal one.

Poor people are poor because they are stupid. Stupid people are stupid because they will not get educated.

Make any excuse you want for why they can't work hard enough to get an education, and work themselves out of poverty but it won't change the fact that if they truely wanted to they could get better jobs, and not be poor.

[MrVicchio]

Here is my take on Minimum Wage, stand back now!

Minimum wage is I have no problem with AS IS. What bothers the @#$#@ out of me is, that Democrats keep wanting to raise it...

Minimum wage is not MEANT TO LIVE OFF OF!! I would support a twax hike if that money went to educating people that are only qualified to earn min-wage. A proposal like that was started I want to say in Chicago.. Instead of raising the local min-wage, a group of business people(see rich) wanted a city funded education program.. Guess What? The Democrats and locla Commie-Socialst libs shot it down as "insesnitive" to minorites...

That right there was enough to make me see the truth, that Socialst/Democrat/Liberals are the true bigots in America. They would rather keep the minorites "in thier place" then help them make it on thier own..

Stupid people support the Liberal movement, period. Its biased, bigoted, anti-education, anti-American and 9 times out of 10, sedition ofthe worst kind.

[SandTrout]

First off, I didnt read the entire thread, just the first page, I'm tired and don't want to read circular logic.

As long as there is a system, it will be exploited. Capitalism has fewer/less systems, and is therefore abused less(just look at commies and facists). While I would prefer some anarchy in the world, capitalism is the next best thing, and is strong enough to defend itself from other systems.

The key to society is balanceing freedom with security. Capitalism is free, but allows for enough security to maintain that freedom.

You don't need a system if you're dealing with a small enough population, especialy if that population is threatened with death/extinction. They will usaly realize the threat/goal that will alow them to survive, and go with that, doing what is neccisary to get it done.

Systems were created to deal with large populations fairly, but nearly every system has loop-holes that can, and will, be abused to someones benifit and another's bane. By limiting the systems, capitalism alows a society to be fair, if not equil. People judge their needs/wants, and will pay for according to how much/when the need/want it. Hence supply vs. demand. the greater the supply, the lower the costs. The higher the demand, the greater the costs.

Many people demand entertainment, and others are willing to give it to them for as much as they'll pay.

[Hamma]

:mad:

[Lexington_Steele]

Are you seriously sugesting that cutting the minimum wage would make it easier for these people to get themselves out of poverty?

Do you really think that social policies such as welfare, the minimum wage, workmans comp, homless shelters, soup kitchens, public housing assistance, and job core are all very detrimental to the poor? Wouldn't these social programs constitute as tools to help the poor?

Do you really believe the poor are poor cause they are all stupid and lazy.

Is the republican party really known for increasing education spending? (wouldn't that constitute a major tool for getting out of poverty?)

[MrVicchio]

Helpful programs that work to move you up and out = good

Helpful programs that let you live yourlife off of them with no help/incentive to move up and out = bad

[Navaron]

Does anyone believe that they got, or that their children will, get a good public education? The problem is that the Dems just throw money at the problem. Let's raise taxes and throw 5% more at schools, that'll improve education.

The dems keep doing this every year, and if you'll check scores go down yearly. Now the republicans have proposed new ideas almost bi annualy, the latest of which is the voucher program. It works every where it is tried, and is proof that capitalism works in every facet of life.

[Doobz]

well, i can tell you that MY public school system does work, out here in Bumfuck, Georgia

[MrVicchio]

REally? It was?

Then tell me what the United States of America's Government is classified as:

I.E. Democracy.. Communist.. so forth

PS Jsut asking, I do it all the time lol so dont take personal.

[TerraxNovae]

I'm tending to agree with Unreg here...

The problem is that the poor don't take what's given to them and use it to make thier situation better.

They blow the food stamps on high priced luxury foods (steak and lobster were mentioned) and blow the rest of thier income on other stuff, such as booze and smokes, or playing the lotto. They sit there and moan and complain that minimum wage doesn't allow them to take care of thier family, but yet they have 5 kids at home and STILL going for more. They keep saying that they should be given an equal chance, citing as examples people who have taken a look at thier life and decided that "FUCK THIS, I will not live like this forever," and done something about it, while they expect to get the same results for NO invested effort.

Those that make it off the dole are those that take whatever programs they can get, use them to supplement any income they can get (working minimum wage at a packing plant or something.) eating ramen for weeks on end because it's cheap, easy to prepare and keeps well, while using what they've saved up to go to nightschool to learn how to become an electrical engineer.

Capitalism is the direct Financial counterpart to Darwinism in nature.
Those that are most successful survive and prosper. Those that don't are doomed to die. HOWEVER, you aren't limited to your genetic (inhereted money) starting point. Effort invested, and invested wisely, is THE factor that determines your survival and prosperity.

Come to think of it, I keep wondering what would happen if the "poor and gonna stay that way" were allowed to die the deaths they deserve, rather than being supported by everyone else. Kinda seems to me that would make for a good incentive to be productive. (Or is that just inhuman?)

[Lexington_Steele]

What was the problem with my public schools system? It was very over crowded and the equipment there was outdated. Class sizes were way too large. (I think the school was at 500 students over capacity.)

With more money they can open new facilities, hire more employees, and get better equipment.

Do you really think lowering class size, giving better equipment and having more teachers wouldn't help education? (BTW that requires more money)

[Sputty]

I knw people who are on welfare and they, have 3 or so new comptuers, got satellite, a new van...and other things that if they can get on welfare I'm wondering how much are they getting?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by TerraxNovae
Come to think of it, I keep wondering what would happen if the "poor and gonna stay that way" were allowed to die the deaths they deserve, rather than being supported by everyone else. Kinda seems to me that would make for a good incentive to be productive. (Or is that just inhuman?)

Not acceptabe, even from a capitalist point of view. With a bit of help, all those poor people could become contributing members of society.

To let them die is wasting that potential output.

[Sputty]

And a little inhuman. Weird at least

[MrVicchio]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
What was the problem with my public schools system? It was very over crowded and the equipment there was outdated. Class sizes were way too large. (I think the school was at 500 students over capacity.)

With more money they can open new facilities, hire more employees, and get better equipment.

Do you really think lowering class size, giving better equipment and having more teachers wouldn't help education? (BTW that requires more money)


One Word: Japan

Like 50 ppl per class, less resources tehn we have, yet thier students out do ours hand sdown..

It not class size, it is Dicipline.

[Sputty]

Heh, our culture is different though. That's the problem. The parents have been disciplining the children like that aswell. I'm not sure on that so don't hold me to it though. Also, british schools were very disiplined and their students weren't doing great. It's hard to say what the best school is.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
One Word: Japan

Like 50 ppl per class, less resources tehn we have, yet thier students out do ours hand sdown..

It not class size, it is Dicipline.

I wouldn't say that is so. On the average, yes, american students do worse than Japanese students. however there is a difference.

The Japanese education system is focused on helping the students that are behind and keeping them up with the rest of thei peers. The idea here is to have the general population be successful in school.

However our style of education focuses on allowing the top tier students excell to their potential, making our education system better for top tier students. The idea here is to allow students to have the oppurtunity to go as far as they are capable.

This is something of a demonstration of eastern versus western values. Their more socialistic approach provides for a higher literacy rate with similar recources. Don't get me wrong here, I prefer the American system (I am not a socialist)

However, our system is going to invariably require a better Student:Teacher ratio if we want to see success. (why do you think student:teacher ratio is included when ranking colleges and universities?)

[MrVicchio]

The first thing we need to do, is instill dicipline back in the classrooms...

Most schools in America today are more worried about you feeling good then learning, period. PArents dont care, and are not held accountable, students are passed therough the idiot idea of social promotion.. its all hosed.. I say screw it all screw everything, I hate this world.

[Sputty]

Just be glad you're not still in school.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
I say screw it all screw everything, I hate this world.

Where is your Capitalist mentality going. Some see a problem, you are supposed to see an oppurtunity. ;)

But seriously, nobody said it was going to be easy.

[Sputty]

You could find a way to sell children into slavery....NM...already done...Get Pepsi to fund public schools....already done...Coca-Cola?.....that too...ehhhh....You could sell their brains...You won't get much though. They're all drugged up and this is what's happened to their fgaces: :doh: What condition can their brains be in?