My Sniper/AWP Thread =D

[DiosT]

<font size=+1>Ok, BEFORE You flame me, read through this...</font>
<B>1) I do not want 1-shot kills in many circumstances, I suport the idea of FUN Gameplay, but remember some people have FUN in the challenge of being a good sniper---But you cant be a good sniper if it's impossible for a sniper to kill someone in under 3 shots... We need to balance 'victims' fun with 'snipers' fun!
2) AWP of CS was 1-shot 1 Kill, Ill get into it later, but remember AWP had a 2 second 'refire' time, the Bolt driver is 1-shot before it has to be reloaded by some other means, it's refire rate is listed as "NA" so is likely to be slower then "Slow/Very Slow" refire rate weapons, likely 5-10 seconds</b>

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<font size=+1><B>Counter-Strike's AWP, And High-Powered Rifle's in detail</b>(Technical)</font>

Peolpe hate the AWP, but dont realize a key point...

<font size=+1>Counter-Strike specifically says it seeks REALISM...</font>

The AWP has a Muzzle Velocity of 3000 ft/sec, by comparison to other rifles this is roughly the same, a bit faster then normal though... The key is the fact the sniper rifle's "slug" is <I>3-5 times larger then a STANDARD bullet</i>, I'm not talking the ENTIRE bullet casing, just the part that SHOOTS, it's 3-5 times larger then a rifle's Slug!


Now for some more realism...

<B><font size=+1>Do you think you'd live getting hit by a Jeep going 80 Miles an hour?</font> Not likely, you'd be splattered across the road

Now immagine getting hit by a Slug traveling 2,045MPH</b>, yes thats a 4 digit number OVER 2,000, MILES PER HOUR... Technically Yes, there is friction & air resistance that slow it, but the raw power behind the slug is seen by this

<U>Math to prove it:</u>
3000ft/sec velocity (note that we have sniper rifles today that have muzzle velocities of 4250 fet/sec, so this is rather 'weak' compared to the top-end)
<B>3,000*60*60 = 10,800,000 feet/hour</b>
Explination: fps*60 seconds * 60 minutes = feet per hour
<B>10,800,000/5280 = 2045.45...</b>
Explination: Feet per hour/5280 feet = Miles per hour

Ok, so your Head is hit by something traveling the speed of sound... Isnt it a bit rediculous to think that a very light helmet(such as on armors under heavy armor types--Agile/infil/Light), would be able to stop this projectile from going through one head, and out the other? Comon.. <B>Your face would be splattered across the next 5 miles</B>, and it'd only take it 10 seconds to do that! Ok, this is a game, it's supposed to be fun--yet real... And futuristic... so we need a 'balance' that doesnt make snipers -useless-, but does provide some good benefits...

<B>LIGHT armor</b>--Someone in Light armor hit by Bolt driver dies, Note that LIGHT armor is the default starting armor you get for free...
<B>AGILE armor</b>--Someone in Medium(Agile) armor, in the head, would die instantly, Medium armor in some shoots seems to not have helments(if im readin the file names correctly), and those that do have 1/4 or 1/8th inch thick helemts--very light..
<b>HEAVY armor</b>--Someone in Heavy armor would be fairly resistant to such shots, Being in the full body armor with futuristic metals and such COMBINED with thickness of this armor, would be able to at least deflect the bullet moreso then let it pass through... so 3 direct head shots, or ~6 shots to the body is reasonable isnt it?
<B>MAX Exo-Suits</b>--Basically immune, everyone even snipers agree MAX's are like walkign tanks...
<B>Vehicles</b>--Not a chance ;-P

It cant be denied that in the REAL world, the PURPOSE of a REALISTIC sniper, is 1-shot, 1 kill... But It can be agreed that this is a game, a fantasy world, and everyone wants to have fun...

By comparison, teh AWP in Counter-Strike was like the Bolt Driver is to the LIGHT body armor of Planetside... basically if someone mod'ed CS to be like planetside, there'd be 3 stronger body armors to choose from, and you START in kevlar, can buy the next armor for $300, and next for 300-400 more, and so on... so it isnt hard to AVOID these 1-shot kills.. Counter-strike is real based on our times, I think the idea's I presented here are reasonable for the Planetside World

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So In Summary:

<B>LIGHT/STANDARD armor</b>--1-shot kills(this is how PS is now)
<B>AGILE armor</b>--2 body shots(this is how it is now), or 1 head shot
<b>HEAVY armor</b>--2 direct head shots, or ~5-6 shots to the body is reasonable isnt it?
<B>MAX Exo-Suits</b>--6 head shots, 12 body shots--these are basically reduiculous numbers, a squad (note: 10 people) of snipers could possibly be able to take 1 MAX out if they ALL aimed at the exact same one, but 4MAX vs. 10sniper, MAX's will OWN the 10 snipers--MAX's can travel at ~60-80kph, so once they find the snipers it's easy to run up and unload automatic weapons fire
<B>Vehicles</b>--60-90 shots ? heh... basiclly impossible to do, well, maybe 30 snipers firing 2-3 shots each into a tank, but thats 30 vs. 1-2 =p

I just wanted to give people a taste of 'realism'...

I guess my end point is, I dont think Agile(medium) armor should be able to resist a head shot from a LARGE projectile traveling 1,500-2,000 MPH... and heavies should be a bit more resistant, but still suseptable...
And if no Head-shot system goes in, then I hope they decrease the cone of fire on the Bolt-driver so they are more likely to simply hit at long range, since that'd be the only saving grace for a sniper...

I personally am going to wait until I play the game before I do any complaining on snipers being too powerful, but still gonna complain about people who havn't played PS thinking snipers are to powerful and calling for nerfing for something that's not even out of internal Beta yet

[drsomewhere]

You pretty much said it all:eek:

[Sputty]

There is no region specific damage. Head shots don't exist. Those stats aren't for release, they may tweak them but from what we know you're right in the stats. But reducing cone of fire would make no sense and you're basing your "argument"(couldn't think of better word) of realism. It's bigger and bulkier than most guns in PS so why would it's cone be smaller?

[DiosT]

Also wanted to add, a Rifle firing a 20-gram projectile @ 4500 Feet per second, would penetrate 40mm (like ~1 1/2 inches) of High-Quality STEEL, that's why I think such a small helmet on the agile armor wouldnt provide such a strong resistance to the Bolt-Driver (which would also increase in power w/time to match the armors it faces)

[Sputty]

You ahve no disagree on your poll...lol...But you have sort of agree, Agree, and unsure...heh..:lol:
Also, this is the future, they aren't using steel I don't think.It's impossible to compare current stats to a future set games especially when they're so far into it.

[DiosT]

Yeah i know they are leaning against the implementing of head shots, but, they do need to address the fact that snipers need to be able to provide a role, and sniping pilost before they get in their vehicles at their home base as an onl option for 1-shot kills isnt 'fun' for snipers...


I'd think 1-shot kills for Infil or Light(standard) armor is good...

2 shtos for Medium(agile), or maybe add in a server-side variable to check for 1-shot kills in this situation (roll a double, if it's under .25 then the other guy takes X damage(kills an agile from full health)).. just an idea...

4-5 shots for Heavy armor

8-10 shots for a MAX


that also an option, mix between head shots & body shots from my origional post

[DiosT]

well, cant really say my numbers are fubared, math is math, and i checked my numbesr 3 times =p that bullet will travel at 2,000 mph minus air resistance/friction =p

and the hits-per-kill being too strong is basiclly what people complain over =p


the poitn of the poll is to see if people agree with my ideas on hits-per kill, or if they think my idea's are too strong =p

[Sputty]

AHHHH!! too many "=p"s

[Jester]

actually, the AWP was originally designed for shooting through soft skinned armoured vehicles (APC's, jeeps etc) to hit the driver. it was discovered that because of the size of the round and the power behind it, it stayed accurate over long distances, and was suited for long range sniping (it recorded the longest confirmed snipe (a head shot) by special forces during the first iraq war)

so really, its quite plausible that you could fuck up a buggy and waste a light / medium in one shot. a heavy would take a beating, and IMO a MAX would be knocked back if not take damage. a TR with its little homo spikes in the ground wouldnt budge an inch tho :P

[Sputty]

Guess you didnt listen. Firstly, it's the future. Also, it's a game. DiosT even said one hit kills for most guys is stupid. As I've said before comparing to the present to the future is stupid and comparing a game to real life is worse.

[Jester]

Originally posted by Sputty
Also, this is the future, they aren't using steel I don't think.


one must assume sniper technology would keep pace with armour technology

[DiosT]

thanks for the historical backgruond jester =) I wasn't aware of it's history, just it's statistics =p

Thinkin about it it's almsot strong enough to be an anti-(light)Tank Rifle, almost penetrates 2 inches of steel =p


Like to see people on CS forums say that an anti-tank file that hits a human in kevlar and 1-shot kills em is unrealistic/unfair ;-P

[Jester]

the worst bit is a toe shot

[Jester]

OH MY TOES *falls over dead*

[DiosT]

well depends, most toe-shost actualyl go through the entire foot and sould splatter your entire foot across the ground for the next few hundred feet, most 'toe' shots go through the front of the foot and out the back, basicly forcing you to limp..

basicly Monty Python and the Holy Grail..
"it's only a flash wound" (as he's missing an arm--which really would disable him)

Be happy snipers cant turn people into newts...

[DiosT]

oh, and yes, Even through it's the future, one must assume sniper technology must be at least keeping up or there wouldnt be a sniper.. Snipers exist to kill people in 1 shot--usually very lightly armored people if any--which is why i only say people in agile/light/infil shoudl have a chance of 1-shot kills...

Heavy+ armor is the "Field grunt" armor, anyone anticipating 1-on-1ing with someone at close range on a battlefield will be in heavy+ armor, agile & under are for 'vehicle' people, or non-combatants... which is why it's reasonable to say they are lightly enough armored for 1-shot kills to be present WHEN UNPROTECTED BYT HE VEHICLE, most vehicles have that glass on them which adds protection, so they are only vulnerable when entering/exiting that vehicle...

I think my 'idea' provides a balance, where snieprs can kill the 'non-combatant' class easily, but have a HARD time against the 'combatants' that would actually Fight the sniper rather then run... (would a hacker, dismounted-vehicle pilot, or medical dude in Standard armor even attempt to charge a sniper?--not likely... would a heavy or MAX suit? yes...)

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Jester
one must assume sniper technology would keep pace with armour technology

And we could also assume that they would be able to penetrate a MAX. We could also assume that every weapon would have this ability. (especially the Gauss with its magnetic propulsion technology)

But do you want MAXs to go down with one shot? Do you want every rifle to kill in two rounds?

We are not going for realism. Priority number one is that the game is fun to play.

[Sputty]

Agile isn't that weak armor really. It i going to be some people's combat armor. Remember that certs may take a while to get so alot of people will be doing grunt work in the agile suit for awhile at least.

[Sandtaco]

The problem with headshots is that with weapons like the chaingun, it will be hard to not get a head shot.

[Sputty]

Just like all the DM FPSes out there.

[Warborn]

You guys are looking at it the wrong way. First you decide what's best for the game, and then you justify it. That being said, though, I don't necessarily disagree with this. Virtually nobody will be in light armor, and you'll have more trouble finding someone in an I.S., let alone worrying about how many shots it'll take to put them down. As far as the rest go, though, it all depends on the reload time.

[Jester]

the damage model of a game such as that of SOF/SOF2 is fun for shooting people and watching them hop, but would be sucky sucky on the receiving end, but then i would like (my own personal enjoyment influences this) some sort of hit model. its better to actually have some skill in where you hit your opponent as oposed to just hitting one giant hitbox dont you think ?

maybe sort of like tribes, ie sniper rifles being as they are more accurate can hit headshots, where as spammy weapons (cg, explosives) cant.

what it boils down to i guess is what the devs do, but i as a gamer of several years over various genres, i do strongly think that some sort (if even basic) hit model that allows you to be more accurate with mroe accurate weapons is a bonus.


but it could be that its 6.30am in the morning and i am tired

[Sputty]

They could, but then everyone would complain there's no region damage for other weapons...heh...That's the problem. Finding middle ground.

[Zatrais]

I'm just curious, how do you suppose a sniper round could knock down a MAX wearer whitout blowing the shoulder off the shooter? Remember the bullet won't have more force than when the gunpowder is ignited, from there on it only loses energy.

basic physics, but annyways i pretty much agree whot Diost.

[DiosT]

Actually I think my ideas are around the middle ground, Gives snipers a 'purpose' without nullifying someones ability to avoid 1-shot kills...

I dont think you have to cert in agile armor before yuo can get heavy, i think you can pick "heavy" armor right from the start, and likely can pick "rifle" too, and start running around in heavy/guass first day w/o any kills...

The problem people will have is getting a 'collection' of other skills that let them play more roles then that.. I'm sure we'll see MAX's and Heavies first day though... Agile is basiclly the pilot's 'heavier' armor, which still wouldnt last for more then 2-3 seconsd against a Gauss, but works well for pistols and such...


I work with sony a lot trying to 'balance' things, I'm looking in the Game's best interest not my own, I personally am leaning toward Tank piloting myself---but i guess that's because if people keep complaining about the power of a weapon in a game that isnt out in the public even in beta form yet... There wont be a 'sniper' option, beound the point of camping an enemy base waiting for pilots in light armor to jump into their vehicles... I'd rather just place explosives on the launch pad, let them jump in, then blow the entire *&^% ship =/

[Sputty]

HEh we don't know but I'd imagine the Medium(Heavy armor is the MAX) that it requires something. We know certain thing require otehr cert.

[DiosT]

well i didn't say a MAX should be moved by a bullet, i said in reality if a person was hit with a bullet (usualyl someone doesnt walk around in an Exo-Suit), there is like a .5% chance the person could remain standing after suffering a 'good' hit from a sniper rifle..

I dont think a MAX should be 'moved,' or even stunned for that matter, I agree with what people say on snipers being 'useless' against a MAX(unless head shots go in)...

On the subject of snipers & recoil, the energy is directed out the front of the rifle moreso then the back(gas expands out the front), the kick back is basically you resisting the gas from pushing you backwards, btu the 20 gram projectile is thrown a lto faster and easier then a 180 pound guy securly 'grounded' (in prone), or supported in standing(against a tree i guess--though thats usually for sharpshooting with pistols =/ Almost all snipers fire prone.. which is why i hate the fact there wont be a prone position)

[DiosT]

HEAVY IS NOT MAX....

I should slap hamma for not updating his page....

BASED ON CERTS there is at least 5 body armor types:

Infiltration Suit(I.S.)
Standard Issue(Light)
Agile Armor(medium)
Reinforced Armor(Heavy)
Mechanized Assault eXo-suit(MAX)


thats also the 'scale' of armors in terms of "Hit Points" .. for lack of a better word.. Light is 25, Agile is 50, Heavy is 100, and MAX is 700+ i think is the numbers someone pulled from SS's


So heavy does exist

[Sputty]

Heh, Agile is know as light, Reinforced as medium, standard as standard and Heavy as MAX.

[�io]

Ok i DO NOT want to start all this over again but

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Priority number one is that the game is fun to play.

Fun for who? You really think snipers will have fun if it takes 3 headshots on a light armor to kill him?

I agree with waiting till i play the game before complaining, people are panicking yet there has been no info about the sniper. If snipers can do their job good and take down weak prey in a headshot than more power to them, i'll probably be sniping from time to time as well and i'll make sure to not stand still like an idiot waiting to get shot, if not no biggie i'll just concentrate on the other "jobs" that interest me. :)

[Zatrais]

Dio

They make the game fun for the majority. You really think it's fun for the other guys (non snipers and yes there will be more non snipers than snipers) to just die due to 1 shot because snipers are able to kill all non MAX's whit a shot or 2....

It's pretty simple 100 happy jon does > 10 happy snipers when it comes to making cash...

edited due to horrible spelling.... bleh it's 1 AM here gimme a break hehe.

[Sputty]

That makes so much sense it actually hurts.

[�io]

Sorry, guess i'm the only good loser here. :)

Serioulsly i could care less if it takes 1 shot to kill me, if that shot was hard to get and the guy earned all the better for him. I mean where is the fun in a game where you can sit there and laugh at the sniper because it takes him 3 heashots to take you out which he never gets because he get to him first and blow his ass up. As i said before sniping should be about the difficulty of the shot, not about how powerful it is.(oh and also as said before snipers should be light armor only :))

That said i'm shutting up now(well unless poked at :p), i'm tired of these endless (and pointless) sniper debates. :)

[Sputty]

BTW, Dio I was serious. Heh, it actually hurt it made so much sense. It really did. I wasn't joking! I was agreeing with you this entire thread!ARGH..

[Zatrais]

Where the fun is...

hmm, this isn't grunt versus sniper... a buttload of things here to do other than beeing sniped at =P

But i personally don't mind getting 1 shot killed in standard issue armor or whit a headshot to a agile armor, should be some reason to play a sniper afterall aslong as the reason to play a sniper outweights the rest =)

[DiosT]

cert page:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/content.php?p=sdCertInfo

[Sputty]

Heh, we don't knwo the cert tree. We know certain things require other things. That's just a listing of certs.

[DiosT]

i meant to post the cert page sooner, but noticed the 1 post/20 sec delay late =p


Dio & Lexington are correct, Important thing is for EVERYONE to have fun... so.. in this world that will be planetside...


The Vast majority of Players that are NOT enclosed in a vehicle are going to be in at LEAST Reinforced armor(or Heavy armor, as I call it because of the fact it's the heaviest armor that allows use of any weapons still--MAX's are more like "vehicles" then armors... it's not just "Armor", it's an Armor/Weapon platform !!!).. anyway....

Reinforced armor will be the "Standard" most likely, but there Will be some agile units... All these, Currently, reportedly by devs, require 2 or 3 shots to kill(2 agile, 3 reinf).. now, considering the assumtion the reload time is a minimum of 5 seconds, that's fairly reasonable when you take into account the cone of fire & chance of missing...

Standard Issue Armor will be worn by NON-COMBATANTS, what i mean by that is that someone in Light(standard) issue armor wont likely carry a gauss and actively seek otu combat on the front line!... Ok.. so these people are likely to be hackers, pilots, etc., people that dont expect to need much armor, and would rather do something else with cert points then 'buy' heavy armor...

I.S. armor, well.. this armor is 'lighter' then standard i think, but it's defense is not being easy to see.. so not really threatened by snipers as much...


Ok.. so... the PS dev team is currently doing a good job on balance, by that i mean, snipers are still somewhat useful, but DEFINATLY dont need to be nerfed...

People who are ON THE BATTLEFIELD cant be 1-shot killed...

The window washer/Janitor.. CAN be 1-shot killed... This is basicly expected, a dude in agile armor unloads a single burst from a rifle into them they get blown away, why shouldnt a sniper 1-shot kill them?


thats all for now, ty for listening

[TheSHiFT]

as for cs awp:

Only n00bs and whinny pubbers compline about the AWP being overpowered, in CAL, a good awper is both feared and respected for his skill (yes, skill) in cs there are serveral guns that can kill with one shot to the head, regardless if they have a helment or not, the AWP is only gun (besides, VERY close m3/xm) that cna kill to the body. A good awper can shorten the 'reload' time to .5 sec but weapon switching, but they still need to be able to hit there shots and dodge at the same time, with the awp u cant be moving to be accurate.

In cs sniping is balanced, but planet side is a different game, with different spawning, more verity ect. Depending on how accurate the bolt driver is, standard and agile should fall with 1 headshot.

[Sputty]

Again, there are no headshots.

[Muffman]

It seems like the whole problem of this could be solved by completely removing the "sniper rifle" designation of bolt. Just making it a long ranged gun with a zoom would make much more sense IMHO... just my 2 planetary credits? i dunno

[Sputty]

:lol: That would help. It's not a rifle. It's a rail gun, isn't it?

[JohnClark]

First off, CS may want to be realistic, but it is not. If you want a realistic shoot play something like rogue spear/raven sheild or SWAT3. Secondly, one shot one kill is not a great deal of fun especially if there is no way to counter detect the sniper. Headshots will not be that difficult to acheive since nobody can move extremely fast (ala tribes) and since I can't imagine it will take many certs to get a sniper rifle, if you allow it one shot one kill on any armore I think you'll see a farily large number of snipers. My .02

[Tobias]

The armor is mostlikly some kind of composite ceramics, and btw, as i said along time ago, they have sniper rifles now that shot though a tank, yes a tank, as in sevral inchs of steel, and kill the people inside.


Depleted Uranium rounds in the bolt driver to kill people in MAX's.

the AWP is actually a AWM, or artic warfare magnum.

[Warborn]

... a good awper is both feared and respected for his skill (yes, skill)...

No, he's feared for his weapon. Any monkey can point and shoot and kill someone if it nicks their toe. AWP users, which you obviously are, like to glorify themselves and preach their skill, but they're really not skilled at all. "A good AWP'er can shorten the reload time to .5 seconds", you said. Oh, a good one? Wow, there I was thinking that it was actually "anyone who knows where the Last Weapon key is bound to on their keyboard". Silly me. I guess I'm not l33t enough to understand the tremendously difficult weapon like the AWP.

The AWP, by the way, is the Sniper Syndrome epitomized. These l33t wannabes covet the most powerful weapon in the game, which is of course a sniper rifle, proclaim that the weapon is totally balanced, and then retort with "Well you're just not a skilled player -- you should have been able to predict where my bullet was going to go and moved out of the way while instantly knowing where I was shooting from and getting me with a headshot!" evertime someone says that they're cheap for using such a horridly overpowered weapon. It's the reason there'll always be a sniper debate as long as sniper weapons are overpowered like the AWP. These people are just so busy jerking off their ego with these guns that they are totally convinced can only be used by the absolute best players in the game. And it's actually the infatuation that the above poster and those like him have with the weapon that prevents it from being removed from the game. It'd be like EverQuest all of a sudden switching from a PvE oriented game to a PvP one. Once people get their ego-trip I.V., they don't want it removed.

[Warborn]

The armor is mostlikly some kind of composite ceramics, and btw, as i said along time ago, they have sniper rifles now that shot though a tank, yes a tank, as in sevral inchs of steel, and kill the people inside.

That's interesting. Mind providing a link?

[SandTrout]

First off, CS is shity as far as realism is concered. The AWP is 50 lbs. and thus would be hard as hell to hit anywhere on someone's body from any position other than prone or bi-poded. Also, accuracy is not affected by geting shot. the only way to affect your accuracy is to run or shoot succesively. The other weapons is counter-stike do unrealisticly low damage. You hit someone with 3 rounds from an assalut rifle or one shot from a 12-gauge to the chest, they are going down, body armor or not. A 12-gauge shot has enough power to knock them out, even if it doesnt penitrate their armor. Any assault rifle will go right though heavy body armor, and so will a 5.7mm pistol round(Five-seveN and P-90). If you are wounded, you will not be able to aim a 50-lbs. rifle while standing at anything. 5 .45 shots will knock anyone on their ass, and the same with 9mm rounds. While relitively low powered, they still can apply enough energy through a vest to shock your nervouse system into knock-out mode. Why do you think most guns have a 3-round-burst mode? If you're looking for realism, try DoD.

Second, when you're dealing with areas as wide open and free to move in as we are in planetside, a sniper must wait for its prey, take 1 shot to take it down, and move before it is found and killed. However, it would take more time to locate the sniper, so the sniper cannot be allowed easy 1-shots on anything above standard armor(Headshots are not easy 1-shots). However, Reinforced(I'm assumeing this is what "Heavy" armor is) shouldn't be able to consider a sniper as an annoyance. As it stand, Reinforced can survive 2 BD shots to the body, and probably 1 to the head.

[SandTrout]

A 50-calibre BMG can penetrate some tank's armor, dont have a link, but that rifle is made for takeing out armored equipment.

Also, I have a friend in the air-force and he observed .50 machine guns tearing appart dummy-tanks.

[Warborn]

Maybe I'm just skeptical, but I have difficulty believing that a portable machine gun that fires solid slugs can blow through a tank -- a vehicle that has armor designed to be able to withstand or at least deflect 100mm+ shells. I won't be totally surprised if I'm wrong, but I'd really like a link to prove it, as my knowledge of modern day weaponry isn't anywhere as comprehensive as my knowledge of weaponry from 60 years ago is.

Also, I have a friend in the air-force and he observed .50 machine guns tearing appart dummy-tanks.

Keyboard in that sentence being dummy.

[Lexington_Steele]

Remember maching guns, not sub machine guns.

Think the type that is mounted on on a vehicle, with a big old stand, a long barrel and rounds being fed through.

[SandTrout]

Dummy tanks are basicly tank armor without an engien or gun. Modern tanks have signifiganly less armor than old ww2 tanks because mobility is considered more important.

The BMG(Browning Machine Gun) sniper rifle is a .50 rifle that was made from the design of the .50 machine gun that has been used sense ww2. The BMG sniper rifle is made for taking out light armored vehicles, not soft targes(aka: Infantry). There is a chance the bullet may be deflected by tank armor, but if it is hit at the right angle, it will go right though. The BMG uses a special mussle break that reduces recoil signifigantly which allows it to be used by an infantryman.

Modern sniper rifles that are made for takeing out people are mostly .30cal/7.62mm. These weapons include the PSG1, M14, and many bolt action rifles. M60 medium machine guns can also be used as sniper rifles very effectively, even though it isnt their specialty.

For gameplay reasons, they wont allow a sniper to take out even a lighting on his own.

[SandTrout]

Oh yeah, and btw, tank armor is made to protect against small arms fire and some explosives, not 100+mm rounds. 100+mm rounds use High Explosive Anti-Tank rounds(AKA:HEAT) that focus explosive force forewards and melts the tanks armor to penetrate.

If anything gets hit by a tankbuster shell, it wont be along for long.

[quiet]

No respectable tank would be hurt by a machine gun or sniper rifle. An M1 would probably survive a solid hit by a lot of true AT weapons.

[Incompetent]

They had an M1 that got stuck in the gulf war, they couldn't leave it behind or else it might be captured in working order. It took FIVE tanks to knock it out of commision, and your telling me some joker with a sniper rifle should be able to knock out a Prowler. Now if were talking the kind of crap that the chinese or russians turn out these days, thats another story, but you wouldn't catch a Terran Republic tanker dead in a T-60.

[Zatrais]

Actually tanks can be destroyed by a sniper round thats placed in the joint of the turret and body of the tank.... thats where the armor is the lightest and where the ammo is stored. course you'd need one of those new laser guided rounds thats designed for that.

[rockarfett]

The energy of the round is not much of an issue when you want to kill a human. Any sort of rifle round is quite enough. Standard 7.62x51 nato ammo would penetrate most modern body armor. The problems a sniper has to face, if it is reality you want, is not the hitting power of his weapon. It is to actually hit the target. Most games have quite unrealistic physics that makes it a lot easier to hit a target. There is no wind, bullets are not affected by gravity, the ammo is always perfect, etc, etc. To make up for this, most games reduce damage, introduce a COF and similar things in order to make up for the lack of physics. In this sence, CS is very, very unrealistic. What you ask for is realism where it gains snipers and keep the unrealistic parts that also gains snipers. I know, sniping can be fun and I like it myself sometimes, but there are not many things that hurt gameplay more than being killed by something you never saw, and that is what will happen if sniping becomes too popular. In most fps games, the sniper proportion is mostly hugely exaggerated. I am not sure about the sniper ratio in the military, but it is probably a lot less than 1/20.

[quiet]

I like how Rockarfett put it. :)

[Tobias]

Bah, I will get links later, but just look up Anti-material sniper weapons and get all sorts of rifles (most look like small cannons hehe) that can shoot the shit out of tanks, or find the old thread where i had the link for the anti tank sniping rifle. And fyi incedary(sp? like most of my big words) rounds will kill most everyone inside. Also some fire then flettchets that get in and frag, but not as deadly.


as for composite armor, just look to kevlar for what we have now or search for composite armor....

[Warborn]

Guys, come on. The Abrams tank that the US army uses has depleted uranium encased in steel as its main body armor, and it is designed to withstand or deflect HEAT rounds, and even 150mm rounds that the tank itself fires. These vehicles cost millions, and millions, and millions of dollars to produce. Do you honestly believe that such an expensive weapon would exist if a several thousand dollar machine gun firing relatively inexpensive rounds could blast through these multi-million dollar machines? What exactly would be the point of having tanks if some redneck on a jeep could waste one with a .50 cal machine gun? I don't want to hit the nail on the head, but you guys have no idea what you're talking about. Unless it's some ultra-flukey shot, a machine gun is hardly going to dent the armor of a tank.

If anything gets hit by a tankbuster shell, it wont be along for long.

You obviously have no idea how tanks function in battle.

There is a chance the bullet may be deflected by tank armor, but if it is hit at the right angle, it will go right though.

Utter bullshit.

Think the type that is mounted on on a vehicle, with a big old stand, a long barrel and rounds being fed through.

Yeah, the military puts them on Hummers. They pack a punch, but they're a pea-shooter against a main battle tank.

Dummy tanks are basicly tank armor without an engien or gun. Modern tanks have signifiganly less armor than old ww2 tanks because mobility is considered more important.

The M1 Abrams tank has steel armor with uranium inserts which equal to approximately 500mm of high-grade steel armor. Their plating is a bit lighter than pure steel, but the main reason these tanks are so much faster is because their engines are a hell of a lot better than what they were back then. The PzKpfw VI "Tiger II", by comparison, had 150mm of high grade steel on its most reinforced area (the gun mantlet -- that's the front of the turret). Again -- the armor was a bit lighter, but the main reason these tanks are faster is because of their engine. Christ, just look at the gun. 150mm shells that thing fires. Almost double that of the PzKpwf VI.

Oh, and, no, dummy tanks aren't tanks without the engine and gun. Where's the logic in getting this extremely expensive armor that the Abrams uses, just for the sake of blowing it apart?


*EDIT*

Sorry, to point out, the thickness equivalent of the Abrams' Chobham armor is classified. The number I gave was from a site that was speculating. But, the thickness is significantly more than that of anything you'd see in WW2. It's been 60 years since those tanks were being built, and if you don't think we've advanced significantly with armor and propulsion technology, you're dreaming.

[orogogus]

Guys, it's easy to look sh*t up... don't talk out of your a$$es.

Warborn is right (mostly) about the M1... no piss-ant 0.50 cal machine gun is going to do diddly-squat to it... ever. The best thing it could hope for would be to hit some of the imaging (FLIR) systems and sorta blind the tank.

Here is a quick link- it's the first one Yahoo! pulled up after typing in 'M1 Abrams'... it's pretty informative for those that care, with links to other sites. http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm

For the record, the M1A2 has a 120mm smoothbore cannon (specifically both the M1A1 and the M1A2 which replaced the older 105mm smoothbores on the original M1) and has both Chobam armor and additional steel armor with depeleted uranium inserts. They can fire both HEAT rounds and saboted depleted uranium 'tank-busting' rounds.

Read the site, information is good.

PS, a 0.50 cal couldn't even do squat to a WWII-era MBT.

[Lexington_Steele]

However 30mm PGU-14 shells seem to be able to take tanks out when used in combination with a certain 7 barrel gatling gun. ;)

[NARF]

I'm just going to ramble about the real world implications of firearms (not the mathematic or counterstrike formulas, neither one accurately models real combat conditions) and thier effects on the human body.

In the real world, a sniper shot to the head (the prefered method of hitting, not only because it provides an instand and painless death {save for the rarest circumstances} but for the bragging rights) brings an instand death. In most cases, not even a kevlar PAS-GT helmet can provide adequate protection from a 7.62mm NATO standard match grande round, it most often prevents the bullet from coming in contact with the skull, but in all likelyhood, the high power of sniper rounds will break the skull and/or cause severe brain damage. Assuming that military technology develops in the same fashion, the effect of a sniper round will be much the same. Someone came up with a round that could penetrate the helmet that someone came up with that would protect from the previous round. This continues, well, forever, and for the sake of balance, the two just happen to be matched. Some of the few things that protect from a sniper round are:

1)Bushes (only if the sniper cant see you, if he cant see you, he cant hit you)
2)a tank or APC
3)a building, and even then its not a sure thing.

So I'm saying, the ENTIRE point of a sniper is surgical fire at a distance, surgical fire entails taking out the most threatening targets with one shot, thereby disrupting the enemy's chain of command and operation, namely mortars and operators of radio equipment, of course, the role of snipers in planetside is someone different, but one shot, one kill is still the point. If a person has a helmet, they may survive, but they will be close to death, unless they are in an actual armored, thing.

U.S. Marine Corps Defenition of a scout-sniper translated into civvy-speak by yours truly, NARF.


Oh wait, did I mention a 50 cal can take out an APC, and can SOMETIMES disable a tank, depending on what parts of the tank happen to be exposed, a 50 cal can sufficiently damage the drive system of a tank if shot from 'below', so if the sniper is lower than the tank, and puts a round, essentially up its ass, the tank can be seriously slowed down or completely stopped.

[JohnClark]

I think we've gone off on a realism tangent. PS is a sci-fi game, and therefore all concepts of realism are right out the window. So, the devs ought to focus on enjoyment, and I think if you have a rifle that does one shot kills and is not easily counter-detectable (and I mean easy like tribes easy) then you take away from the enjoyment of most players, since snipers will enjoy a huge advantage over anyone not wearing one of the heavier armors.

[NARF]

this is the reason there are only two damage regions, and only for sniper rounds, head and not head. Then you have the scope wobble (I think the rifles are gyro supported tho) and a few other factors they might put in to balance it. Just because it's oneshot one kil doesnt mean its going to be an easy shot or kill, otherwise the military would consist of a mass of burlap covered marines.

[SandTrout]

I wasn't reffering to the M1 Abrams, I was refering to lighter tanks. But anyways, I still agree with snipers being unable to take out even a lightning.

The 7.62mm NATO round is not used as a sniper round because of its power. It is used because it has a high mussle velocity and is less affected by wind than 5.56mm which is used by most assault rifles.

However, just about any high powered rifle round will go through a steel helmet. Only some pistol rounds and some shrapnel(sp?) are stoped by body armor.

However, all this has no bareing to the game unless you want to have increased damage for hiting someone in the head vs the leg. I think this is a point that would be enjoyed because you can snipe with assault rifles via the magnifire implant, and sense you will be takeing picked shots, a shot to the head should still do some more damage than one to the leg.

At least we can agree that CS is not the pinicle of realism.

[Lexington_Steele]

I do wonder how effective a .50 caliber depleted uranium round would do against a tank.

[JohnClark]

Originally posted by NARF
this is the reason there are only two damage regions, and only for sniper rounds, head and not head. Then you have the scope wobble (I think the rifles are gyro supported tho) and a few other factors they might put in to balance it. Just because it's oneshot one kil doesnt mean its going to be an easy shot or kill, otherwise the military would consist of a mass of burlap covered marines.

Then you make skill even less a part of the game if the scope is wobbling all over the place. I think sniper's should be stable but should not be one shot one kill.

[Warborn]

I do wonder how effective a .50 caliber depleted uranium round would do against a tank.

Given that the M1 Abrams has depleted uranium inserts along with high grade steel for armor. You'd mess up the paint job, but that's about it.

... and can SOMETIMES disable a tank...

I've been reading "if a tank gets shot in the armor dead on it'll go right through", so let's not second guess ourselves here. The .50 cal machine gun isn't doing jack to a tank. Technically speaking, a big metal pole could also take out a tank if you stuck it in the right place, but that's not something that you're going to see in a combat situation, and neither is shooting a tank in the "right place" with a machine gun.

Warborn is right (mostly) about the M1...

I was reading a lot of conflicting stuff. Some guys said it was a 150mm cannon, others a 120mm. The 150mm seemed reasonable though, so I didn't bother changing it, because I don't drive the tank, so I know as much as these sites tell me.

PS, a 0.50 cal couldn't even do squat to a WWII-era MBT.

Even anti-tank shells had a tendency to be deflected or break up on the armor of WW2 MBTs. A solid slug would just plink and leave a nice lead pancake on the ground for passing soldiers to remark at.

[Sputty]

That's why sometimes in WWII allied tanks would try to hit an are where it would deflect down into the weaker armor above the driver. Heh, someone is going to say that's too hard but because of the weakness of the Sherman they would try to make precision shots like that. CRAP! Mentioned something about history in these forums. Well, I guess the world is ending....Too bad. Also, not gun designed for AI like the sniper could affect tanks in the slightest. And in PS they're going for gameplay so saying it should happen in the game because of realworld physics is useless. And there is no headshots. If they add them in then it will be everquake with massive spary death fests.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Warborn
Given that the M1 Abrams has depleted uranium inserts along with high grade steel for armor. You'd mess up the paint job, but that's about it.

I am not sure about that. Why couldn't depleted uranium go through depleted uranium?

The GAU-8 Gatling gun firing 30mm rounds that contain depleted uranium and are often used as anti tank weaponry.

[Hamma]

Where are my dead horse images when I need them.

[Warborn]

I am not sure about that. Why couldn't depleted uranium go through depleted uranium?

Because there's a hell of a lot more depleted uranium in the path of the bullet, along with steel, than you realize. Hell, you'd be lucky if you could even get the bullet to not simply ricochet away harmlessly. Believe it or not, but these tanks are made to be fairly durable and able to withstand a lot of punishment. I don't know whether to laugh or hang my head in dismay when I read you guys saying that some joker with a machine gun is going to take out the most sophisticated battle tank on the planet.

The GAU-8 Gatling gun firing 30mm rounds that contain depleted uranium and are often used as anti tank weaponry.

Oh really? And I suppose they have Ahnuld Schwarzenneger look-alikes to man the weapons, right?

Sarcasm aside, no respectable nation in the world uses a minigun as an anti-tank weaponry. I doubt the minigun is even a standard piece of hardware in virtually any modern military. The whole "preservation of life" thing, you know. Much safer to fire off a disposable LAW or some such, or rely on your own tanks, rather than give some guy a slug-thrower and tell him to start plinking away. [Hello, my name is A-10 Warthog. Had someone told you that it was my fuselage that this weapon was mounted on, you wouldn't have even bothered. Ah, the wonderful world of people who don't have a clue what they're on about spewing conjecture around like it makes a difference...]

[Incompetent]

Uh, no, actually they have an A-10 pilot pulling the trigger. The difference is that A.) those rounds are a helluva lot bigger B.) there are a helluva lot more of them and C.) they move a helluva lot faster.

[Ludio]

Do you know how hard it is to find a picture of a dead horse Hamma?

http://www.trib.com/~phxcon/DEADHORSE.html

Well I do wish everyone would stop beating it...poor thing. :domotwak:

Seriously people, we understand that there are lots of interesting debates about modern weaponry, too bad planetside is set in the future. Suffice to say anything but an anti-vehicle weapon will do little or no damage to vehicles, especially tanks. Of course considering there are pistols that are anti-vehicle weapons and AP bullets for assault rifles there wont be any shortage of them. Although the true anti-vehicle weapons (Decimators etc...) will be the most effective.

Anyway, I do appreciate DiosT's efforts to give us mathematical models for sniper rifles, but that doesn't help alot. I agree with most of his ideas about how many hits it should take to kill someone with the bolt driver, and hopefully some of it will be cleared up in AGN interview with SmokeJumper (like if there will be head shots).

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Incompetent
Uh, no, actually they have an A-10 pilot pulling the trigger. The difference is that A.) those rounds are a helluva lot bigger B.) there are a helluva lot more of them and C.) they move a helluva lot faster.

Glad that someone mentioned the thing was strapped to a tank-buster jet when they first brought it up. Obviously what I said is totally invalid given that rather critical detail that was so thoughtfully left out. Anyway, in light of the tanget this conversation has taken again... let's follow his advice and drop it.

[Warborn]

Of course considering there are pistols that are anti-vehicle weapons...

Maybe I'm wrong, but I was under the assumption that pistols had an armor piercing mode/ammo type. Meaning, the rounds will be useful against people in Reinforced armor, as you won't deplete their armor much, but will do damage to health (albeit less than you'd do if you were shooting them unarmored with regular rounds). Armor piercing doesn't necessarily mean anti-vehicle. While a pistol may do minor damage to some vehicles using armor piercing rounds, I doubt it'd really be a very effective anti-vehicle weapon.

[Ludio]

You could be right about the AP rounds, I thought that they would at least do some damage against vehicles, but maybe they are just better against reinforced/MAX armor. A good question for anyone who hasn't submitted questions for the interview yet.

As for the pistol I was refering to the beamer, here is a quote from the description "It can be converted from a regular energy blaster to a more focused, armor piercing shot that consumes more energy. Thus, it is good for regular close-in firefights as well as a reasonable anti-vehicular weapon."

As I said I think that explosive weapons like rocket launchers will be the best, but if your in a pinch a beamer will at least enable you to fight back even if it is futile.

[Incompetent]

There are other places to aim other then the two feet of armor on the front of the tank, like the inch or two on top of the magazine. and aircraft are at such a damnable disadvantage when they are trying to hit areas like that.
no respectable nation in the world uses a minigun as an anti-tank weaponry and last i looked the US was a respectable nation

and the M1 has a 120mm main gun

[Ludio]

Did you notice what Warborn said?

Anyway, in light of the tanget this conversation has taken again... let's follow his advice and drop it.

Are you Incompetent or something? :lol: (Just joking)

But can we move on to something constructive about Planetside?

[Lookoverthere]

1-shot kills are no fun, the only 1-shot kill from a rifle is a head-shot on a very light armor class (stealth, pilot, standard)

F-realism, i want fun

[�io]

Originally posted by Lookoverthere
1-shot kills are no fun, the only 1-shot kill from a rifle is a head-shot on a very light armor class (stealth, pilot, standard)

F-realism, i want fun

I don't recall anybody wanting 1 hit headshots for renforced armor, only light, standard and infiltration.

[Lexington_Steele]

Screw head shot kills on the agile exosuit.

(BTW its not called light. If you really want to break it down into light, medium and heavy: Standard = light, Agile Exo= medium, reinforced = heavy)

I was very happy with the developer answer that said the bolt driver will only give one hit kills on standard armor.

[Warborn]

Originally posted by Incompetent
[stuff about tanks and miniguns]

Just wanted to let you know I did read your post, but I'm not really interested in getting into it.



Ludio,

Yeah, but if even a pistol makes a "reasonable anti-vehicular weapon", how could a vehicle ever hope to survive against a rifle or a weapon specifically designed to take out vehicles? I don't know, maybe the guy writing the description really meant "it makes an OK anti-quad weapon" instead. It just doesn't seem right that a pistol -- the weakest weapon in the game -- would be able to do much to a vehicle outside the virtually unarmored ones.

[Sputty]

Hmmm...Someone should ask if armor can be sronger in certain areas...Not sure about that one is PS. Also, if a pistol in PS had a chance against a tank, no one woud use them ever. The AP ammo is probably for taking out buggies or really light vehicles if any. Probably the reinforced armor though. Or MAX even though they're basically walking tanks.

[Marlboro Man!!]

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn46-e.htm


does this link work? anyways if i works then check it out. it has a list of rifles and sniper rifles that can take out vehicles(probably not a tank, but then again i didnt read all of them)

[Marlboro Man!!]

^ thats just stuff to read if your interested, im not saying this or that just thought it might be interesting to read! :)

[Ludio]

It may not be able to damage tanks, but even if it does I wasn't saying that it would be a very effective weapon. Even if it could I would still expect that on open ground the tank would own you if all you had was a beamer, and thats if you could even get close enough to use it. If you were in a forest or a base though and you had some friends with you then you may be able to scare it off...although if you had multiple people with you you should have a more powerfull anti-vehicle weapon than a beamer.

I'm sure the devs have made it realistic in the sense that the most effective anti-vehicle squads will be using tanks/reavers or heavy duty rockets/MAX's with anti-vehicle weapons.

[Toimu]

I liked all but what you said about the MAX. 12 shots to take out a max is a bit low IMO. I think most people will be aiming at a MAX in a battle.

Bigger target = easier to hit = maybe I get last shot on it = more BEP

[Sputty]

It has around 700 or so armor. We need to find out how much dmg a certain weapon does to armor. The nwe can decide.

[Hamma]

welcome to whoredom sputty

[Sputty]

Thanks Hamma....*sniffle*..I never thought I'd see this day...Whhaaaaaa:tear:

[TheSHiFT]

No, he's feared for his weapon. Any monkey can point and shoot and kill someone if it nicks their toe. AWP users, which you obviously are, like to glorify themselves and preach their skill, but they're really not skilled at all. "A good AWP'er can shorten the reload time to .5 seconds", you said. Oh, a good one? Wow, there I was thinking that it was actually "anyone who knows where the Last Weapon key is bound to on their keyboard". Silly me. I guess I'm not l33t enough to understand the tremendously difficult weapon like the AWP.

hate to tell u buddy, but ask anyone cal+, and theyll tell u its balanced, and if u want to talk about monkeys, go in a pub and see how many of them spray, get kills, and think there good. Yes, i use awp, but im to slow with it to beat out a really good awper. I mainly use m4/ak, but ppl who say it is imblanced, really do suck at the game (they also say its a "point and shoot/click"). oh and leg shots dont kill ;)

[Sputty]

Warborn is right. Not all AWPers are bad like that but most are. I don't think CS hasn't any huge open areas to really need a sniper anyway. Also, sprayers in any game with the aiming system like CS or BF1942 always get destroyed.

[Warborn]

Originally posted by TheSHiFT
hate to tell u buddy, but ask anyone cal+, and theyll tell u its balanced, and if u want to talk about monkeys, go in a pub and see how many of them spray, get kills, and think there good. Yes, i use awp, but im to slow with it to beat out a really good awper. I mainly use m4/ak, but ppl who say it is imblanced, really do suck at the game (they also say its a "point and shoot/click"). oh and leg shots dont kill ;)

It's not imbalanced because that's how they like it. It's just like crack users not really caring about what the crack does to them anymore. They've found their recreation, and the rest is just politics. So let me put it another way: The AW/M is the simplest weapon in CS to get kills with, bar none. There is no other weapon which, in the hands of even a new player, can get them as many kills.