Creativity and Game Balance

[BadAsh]

I think the developers made an error in the initial decision on how to make each Empire unique. The decision was to make each Empire have a characteristic defined by how their equipment functions that gives them a unique style. The problem here is while initially this seems simple; it�s a bear to maintain game balance. In certain situations one side will have the advantage. There is nothing that can really be done about that.

I�m the competitive type. I like things to be even and fair in any situation. I don�t want my victories to feel cheap nor my defeats seem inevitable. I�d prefer to see battles decided by tactics, strategy, and player skill as opposed to victory being defined by capitalizing on your inherent strengths and the enemy�s inherent weaknesses. This is not always the case, but much of the time it is. And to me that�s just not as fun as it could be.

I think making all of the equipment used by each empire statistically the same this would be alleviated and much more fun would be had in the game. I brought this up before, but it was more of a side note to another topic/thread. So I figured I�d bring it up again, just for discussion. One valid concern that was raised is that this might make the game too �vanilla� and ruin the uniqueness of each Empire. I disagree with this, and in my opinion it already is too vanilla. Just look at the amount of �common pool� items and you will see exactly what I mean. Most of the equipment you have access to is the EXACT same as what any other Empire can get. Look at the aircraft for example. The only difference is the coloration to note which Empire it belongs to, but otherwise every flyer is the SAME.

Let�s take a quick look at what equipment you can get (including AT items)

Standard Assault: 2 common pool, 1 unique
Medium Assault: 3 common pool, 1 unique
Heavy Assault: 1 common pool, 1 unique
Special Assault: 4 common pool, 0 unique
Sniper: 1 common pool, 0 unique
Anti-vehicular: 0 common pool, 1 unique
Grenades: 3 common pool, 0 unique


Support: 8 common pool, 0 unique
Body Armor: 4 common pool
MAX Armor: 3 unique

Ground Vehicles: 11 common pool, 3 unique
Air Vehicles: 5 common pool, 0 unique (including the Load Star which WILL be common pool when released)

Overall Total: 45 common pool items/vehicles and 10 unique items/vehicles. That�s a well over 80% common pool identical gear� not very original and not at all unique. Hence my statement about the game being already too �vanilla�.

What I would have done is I would have made each Empire statistically identical but vastly different in sound, appearance, and name. An example of this would be the body armors. Look at how each one is uniquely different, but statistically identical. Now imagine if each of the common pool items and vehicles were as unique and different looking, sounding, and had a unique name but were identical statistically as well. The whole balance issue would fade away.

Additionally each empire would have more items to choose from because I would not eliminate anything that is currently in the game. Let�s evaluate the HA weapons.

The VS have the Lasher an area of effect and splash damage weapon.

The NC have the JackHammer a slow firing mega punch delivering weapon.

The TR have the Mini-Chaingun a rapid firing weapon.

I�d make all 3 available to each empire but make them uniquely different. For example the VS would fire energy blasts from their weapons, the NC would fire razor discs, and the TR would fire more traditional slugs. Each would have a splash damage HA weapon, a slow firing heavy hitter, and a rapid firing light hitter. Graphically each would be very unique and the sound of each would be unmistakable. Further I�d give them names appropriate to the Empire�s theme. The VS would have strange alien Vanu names to their equipment, the TR would have very militaristic (make, model) names, and the NC would have idealistically descriptive weapons (vengeance, dispatcher, etc.)

By making everything �common pool� but giving it a complete artistic overhaul the feel of each Empire can be made even more unique than it is now and offer superior game balance at the same time. To me this would be the recipe for more fun, more diversity of actions/battles, and less lameness.

BadAsh

[Jagd]

HOCKEY BUZZER

No thanks. Take your lame ideas elsewhere.

[SilverLord]

HOCKEY BUZZER

No thanks. Take your lame ideas elsewhere.

Dude, really, is that really nesisary? Go to the OF if you want to flame.

[BadAsh]

Another thing I thought would be cool is if the bases would change more than just color when taken over.

For example the Vanu would take a base and the walls would change to a more rounded smooth shape rather than the block style they are now. Perhaps this would increase over time, so the longer they held the base the more vanu-like it would become... eventually being very alien looking with horn like protrusions on the walls and tube-like interior hallways. This could be explained as a nanite reconstruction phase to make the world more Vanu-ish or whatever.

Then TR and NC would likewise have more unique looking and changing bases.

In this way you could learn to tell by appearance what base was held the longest and how much experience it might be worth to capure and begin the slow change to your Empire's style/ethos.

Plus it would be kind of cool to be able to see what Empire previously owned the base by its appearance and see it change over time to the current owners design.

BadAsh

[Unknown]

Sorry but I have to disagree with you BadAsh. Having different strengths and weaknesses is the very essense of tactical gameplay. Explioting your strenghts and their weaknesses? Sounds like good tactics to me, not lame gamemanship. If anything, the empires aren't different enough. I'd rather have more empire specific vehicles and weaponry than less, or none!

[Hexen]

That morphing base idea sounds cool though. I always thought the bases looked a bit bland.

It might be asking alot to actually morph the bases, as I don't think the PS engine has anything in it to support that kind of thing yet, but it wouldn't be too much to ask for all the walls and floors in a base to change to a different texture or colour dependant on which side just took it. It would still look very cool IMO and I'm sure everyone who was helping in the attack would find it a very gratifying effect to see all the walls around him suddenly fade into the his nation's colours.

[Ivan]

HOCKEY BUZZER

No thanks. Take your lame ideas elsewhere.
http://www.p0stwh0res.com/images/waiting.jpg

[Nimbus]

Eh. I really don't like the idea of making everything common pool. I'd have to say that I'd rather have more diversity than less. To be honest, I wish they'd take a lot of the common pool vehicles out and make empire specific versions. But thats me.
As for the base thing, morphing would be cool, but I think that might take too much work. Maybe for more variation though, the continents closest to each home base have their style of bases. The further out you get they give way to the generic ones or maybe they just mix and match *shrugs*

[Rbstr]

i have to say i wan't more unique things and fewer common pool type things, Apposing armies don't use the same stuff, they each have there own wepons, some are desined for the same task but can be radicaly different in many ways. I would like to see the special assalt cert have empire specific wepons, but the wepons would do differnt things, the NC could have a FlameThrower, the Tr could get a super rapid fire rocklet for AV/A-max, and the VS could get a heatseeking lazer rifle. They all do differnt things and are not alike at all and they fit the empire patterns. And perhaps an addvanced med assult type thing, with better rifles for each fraction, Nc culd have a guass with a SNiper mode or a grenade launcher. The TR could have an "light" MCG. The VS could get a lazer the fires one long beam instead of a pulse.

I relay think uniqueness is realy why i got his game, in the other FPS's like Wolfensien EE you get the same stuff just in different pakages, and even then they look the same.

[Hexen]

Aye, that makes alot more sense. Making the guns identical statistically but look different may work, but it might still end up feeling kinda "vanilla" as you said. Right now the 3 heavy assault weapons are entirely different, they should be redesigned to be different still, but still able to do the same thing. Heavy assault exists to take out infantry right? Right now we've got a shotgun, a chaingun and a ball chuckin energy thing, all good at different ranges.

If the devs were to designate Heavy Assault as "short range, anti-infantry, high-damage" they could much more easily cause balance with variety IMO. The NC could keep the Jackhammer, the TR could use a Flamethrower and the Vanu well uhm.. Ooer how about this, a weapon similar to that of the zealots in StarCraft. :)

I'm suggesting these weapons as short range only (effective 5 to 10 metres ahead of you), so say a one-metre long energy blade extending from above the wrist of a vanu's right arm, which when swung releases a wave of energy, if yknow what I mean.

Mmm energy blades.

[Rayder]

No. No. No... did I say no? Making everything statistically identical will make this "vanillia" effect you speak of all the more apparent. Ooh! He's using his MCG! I'm gonna get mine and we'll see which one of us can start shooting first!

No.

This game has the empires use different forms of attack for a reason. It creates teamwork. You've got the NC with their hard-hitting Jackhammers, which are useless at range, so, you get guys with Punishers or Guasses to accomidate for that. If they all have access to the MCG which is quite accurate for the first few shots, then would it not be pointless to have all those guys with the Medium weapons?

Your second post however, makes sense.

[Hexen]

Not very subtle are you? :D

[Rayder]

If your talking to me... no. If not, no.

[Veteran]

If you could hack out enemy assets from their terminals, all this ill-will would dissipate instantly.

As for 'balance issues' associated with this, I think that's bullshit. A big part of war is capturing and using enemy assets against them. It happens in every real war, but on Auraxis somehow an empire can keep everyone from using the advanced tech (guess whose ideal that suits to a tee?).

If the devs ever want a way to double the pleasure of PlanetSide, they have an easy avenue.

Between VS keeping their tech to themselves and NC roaming free as birds, TR seems to be the only empire not achieving any goals. Is it because we're red? Is that it??

/partisan b.s.

[Rayder]

^ what? all the empires get to use the AT weaponry, which is Vanu. The VS in no way have Vanu weapons, they have hover things, but not weapons.

[Hexen]

Sif. What about all those energy weapons?

[Rayder]

I don't see how those came from the Vanu. We have energy based weapons today. I don't see why an advanced society that branched out of the TR wouldn't have them either, and they aren't that great.

[Flammey]

I think there should be more uniqueness towards each empire. More unique weapons and vehicles, not less. Besides, this hover uniqueness is now lost. Anyone can get a hover vehicle now, and drive in Rexo armor. Personally, I'd rather gun a Magrider than a Lightning or Vanguard. The Direct fire of the Rail gun is extremely effective against Air. More so than the 150 or even 100mm cannon. Chainguns are direct fire, but I can take out a Mosq or Reav with less ammo, and in less time than with a chaingun

[Rbstr]

yeah but the hover vehicles are not realy the kind you can bring into combat, the Flail ned to lag behind a bit, and the switchy can only be used effectively from a stand still. that liek saying the NC are ruined because of the sweeper, or the TR are ruined becuase of the switchies deployability

[Hexen]

The energy weapons are still Vanu..

Hover and energy weapons are what define the VS, because thats what they obviously took from Vanu technology. None of the other sides use energy weapons, so I figured it was a very safe assumption.

Its not like the TR and NC aren't using energy weapons just because they think they suck.

[BadAsh]

I respect your opinions, but as I see it the game has serious balance problems. By exploiting an Empires weakness or capitalizing on one of your strengths a single soldier can cause havoc on an enemy platoon. Knowing you have a huge advantage at close range, you can pick your battlefield with very little planning. Then you just obliterate all opposition until either you get bored or they quit. Not too challenging if you ask me. But, again, I�m the competitive type. My thrill is in the good and fair fight. If I win I want to be able to say I defeated my opponent. If I lose I want to know I gave him/her a run for the money and but up a good fight. Too often, I�m thinking they had no chance, or I had no chance against such odds.

Some Empires have painfully simple strategies to achieve significant advantage while others struggle under similar circumstances to achieve a hard fought loss. To me this gets old very quickly.

It�s simple because strengths and weaknesses are diametrically opposed in this game. The worst match up is NC vs. the VS. The NC are slower more heavily armored and harder hitting. The VS are faster and much lightly armored and hitting. The NC just move into a base and take it. It does not get simpler than that. What are the VS to do? Use their movement to run away faster? If they hold their ground they are dead in a big way. At best the VS are a harassment force picking off NC stragglers.

VS MAXs don�t do well in close quarters. NC MAXs do. So just bring the fight to them and force them to defend their base or force them to run away.

VS Magriders don�t stand a chance against NC Vanguards. The best they can do it use �hit and run� tactics. In which case the NC would get worn down and picked apart. But what do they do when the NC just roll into their base? Again, you have to choice of getting obliterated or just running away and letting them have it.

This is why I�ve found the TR to be the most fun to play. They are kind of the middle ground. The VS are the best �back hackers� the NC are the best �frontal assault� and the TR are in between them. They are good at both, but masters of neither like the NC and VS.

Anyway, I think you see my point here. I just want things even and fair. And currently they are not. Hence you have many disatisfaction posts complaining about this weapon or that vehicle, etc. This causes players to leave. Even go in the caves and say "Hi"? The only sound is your echo saying "HI" back.

BadAsh

[Rayder]

No. This is a war game, in war the only fair thing is that your kicking the other guys asses. You cannot tell the outcome of a battle based soley on the empire's style, it also depends on the number of people, the skill of those people, what is being used, and where. If the NC are invading the home continent of the VS, and they have to drag Vanguards through the WG, how are the going to overrun the VS who have Technology Plants and Amp Stations and Bio Labs right there? Your assumption of a battle based purely on the fighters is idiotic, and weak.

[Hexen]

This is ridiculous... It's called TACTICS.

An enemy always has strengths and weaknesses, the key to victory is knowing how to use those weaknesses to your advantage. This works on basically all scales of war, and is the whole basis of the concept of mixed arms.

A soldier with a rifle walks up to a tank. The tank has a strength against the soldier, the soldier dies. The soldier's friend walks up with an RPG, a weapon made to exploit a weakness in a tank's design. The tank is destroyed.

Thus is the way of war.

If you want fair fighting, you have to submit yourself to duels with rules, ensuring exactly even odds.

If PS was to be completely balanced with nobody having any more of a chance than anyone else. There would be no vehicles, one weapon and one armour-type.

[Jagd]

This excercise might help you understand, BadAsh. Go to Emerald and create an NC character. VR your way to BR3, and select Medium & Heavy Assault. Solo your way to BR6, and then come talk to us about how easy it is to crush whole platoons of Vanu with the supernaturally overpowered and unfair NC weapons.

[Flammey]

Which is why I pick up Jackhammers, Cycler, and Gauss. After using Vanu weaponry for a while, one can really kick ass with nme weaponry. At least with the Lasher you have to learn to aim better. Not that you don't with the MCG or JH. Just that you have to learn how the globs of energy move, how fast the reach your target, how much you have to lead. With the JH you don't have to lead with your weapon at all. Just point it right at your opponent and pull the trigger. I still say a good Vanu player is a better gamer all round. Anyone can pick up a Sweeper or a JH and do well with it. Anyone can hop into a Dual Cycler and do well. The thing people must learn is not when to fire, but when NOT to fire. That makes a good player. Sure you get more kills if you just fire all the time. But your grief will be that much higher. This game would be way different if instead of grief, they took away experiance for your TK. It would make you that much more careful now wouldn't it? Accidents do happen, yes, but most accidents can be avoided.

[Rayder]

Actually, IMO DC is the hardest MAX to use, having shit damage against infantry, not exactly the strongest damage against vehicles (each shot is really sad), not being too accurate, ok rof, but still annoying.

[BadAsh]

This excercise might help you understand, BadAsh. Go to Emerald and create an NC character. VR your way to BR3, and select Medium & Heavy Assault. Solo your way to BR6, and then come talk to us about how easy it is to crush whole platoons of Vanu with the supernaturally overpowered and unfair NC weapons.

Done. Already did this on Markov. 11+ VS attacked a base held only by me. When the butchery was over, 3 parked purple reavers, 2 parked Magriders and an AMS was all that was left. I suppose they could have kept comming, but after about 35+ straight kills they moved on... Though the last 6 or so kills were after I found their AMS and I camped it...

What aided me though was that a CE placed motion sensors in good locations and the VS failed to do a few primary things...

1. Stay in groups
2. Take out the motion sensors

Oh, and how did I know it was 11 guys? Because the hate tell I got after told me so... LOL.

Further, to what others have said, I hear ya. I'm not saying that my opinion is better or anything. I just brought it up for discussion. Agree? Disagree? Have other cool ideas? All fine by me :) To me that's the point of posting and sharing thoughts and ideas.

Also my VS against NC comparison was assuming all things equal... of course if the VS have greater numbers OR are definding a home continent then it's easier for them... but assume 30 players each... same tech resourses... The NC have the edge as long as they force the VS into close quarters...

Anyway, this whole post was just food for thought... so the next time you hear a balance complaint... and I'm sure you will... think of how else this might have been solved?

BadAsh

[Veteran]

Dual-Cycler on the same table as Jackhammer? The DC is a passable MAX, but hardly an ownage machine. If you're not anchored, you're not going to kill infantry very quickly at all, and if you are, it's time for the Decimator burrito.

[Flammey]

Then I guess I'm a better player. I hopped into one and got lots of kills. But then, after using a Quasar, DC is a breeze.

[BadAsh]

This is ridiculous... It's called TACTICS.

An enemy always has strengths and weaknesses, the key to victory is knowing how to use those weaknesses to your advantage. This works on basically all scales of war, and is the whole basis of the concept of mixed arms.

A soldier with a rifle walks up to a tank. The tank has a strength against the soldier, the soldier dies. The soldier's friend walks up with an RPG, a weapon made to exploit a weakness in a tank's design. The tank is destroyed.

Thus is the way of war.

If you want fair fighting, you have to submit yourself to duels with rules, ensuring exactly even odds.

If PS was to be completely balanced with nobody having any more of a chance than anyone else. There would be no vehicles, one weapon and one armour-type.

Good point. But consider that my thoughts were infantry vs. infantry and vehicle vs vehicle balance based...

Say that one team has the advantage at close range, one at medium, and one at long... If I were the short ranged trooper, I'd stay inside and defend, making them come to me... and then...

But what if the other team realized this and could adjust their stratagy? Oh, they have a group of short range weapons troops... let's change gear to match them... That's the kind of tactics I'm talking about... but currently in PS you can't do this...

The solution? Zerg or get pushed out.

So imagine that each empire had a short, medium, and long ranges effective weapon... then equipment selection and preparation (read: tactics) would determine the winner... And that's the whole point of my post :)

BadAsh

FIN

[Rayder]

Each empire DOES have a short, medium, and long range effective weapon.

Short: Heavy Assault
Medium: Medium Assault
Long: Bolt Driver

How about some more?

Short: Thumper
Medium: Rocklet
Long: Bolt Driver

No empire has thebest long range weapon. Thats a common pool thing.

[Veteran]

Then I guess I'm a better player. I hopped into one and got lots of kills. But then, after using a Quasar, DC is a breeze.

:huh:

We're talking about PlanetSide still, right? Also, you're not typing in your sleep are you? Any alcohol involved in that statement?

[BadAsh]

Each empire DOES have a short, medium, and long range effective weapon.

Short: Heavy Assault
Medium: Medium Assault
Long: Bolt Driver

How about some more?

Short: Thumper
Medium: Rocklet
Long: Bolt Driver

No empire has thebest long range weapon. Thats a common pool thing.

Ok, here is my focus point... Is there a differance between the HA weapons of each empire? Yes? Then each has strengths and weaknesses that can be capitalized on by smart players... and THIS is what I'm talking about... Your empire dictates the "style" of weapon you must choose... so if you want the rapid fire you have to play TR. If you want the ultra short range mega punch weapon you have to play NC. If you want to use the splash damage weapon with effective suppression fire capabilities you have to play VS.

Sooooo, feel like changing styles? It's not really an option huh? Nothing to tactical or thought out about it either... you CAN'T do what you CAN'T. However, if each had a set of 3 heavy weapons similar to the above 3... now picking equipment for a particular mission/tactic come into play... otherwise it's the same old thing every time... players using the tactics their empire dictates.

The same holds true for a Tank battle... Vanguards fight completely different than Magriders... So the NC will always fight a certain way and the VS will always fight in a certain way to be effective... deviate from the effective technique and get owned...

Soooo, want heavy tank that can just go slug it out? Want a faster tank to harrass enemy troop lines? Then pick an Empire. What to change that up a bit? Not really an option unless you are willing to leave and go to another server or delete and start over at BR1... not too appealing especially if you have an outfit you like and a good group of frineds to play with...

Anyway, that's what my post was about... more options and more tactics... and more unique empire looks/feel.

Finally Rayder, if you disagree with me, that's fine. But please refrain from flaming. Thx.

BadAsh

[Hexen]

I'd rather have what we have now than the ultra vanilla with vanilla topping w/ vanilla essence what we'll have once every weapon and vehicle is changed to be statistically identical to their rivalling counterparts.

It isn't enough for the sides just LOOK different.

That negates your original argument as far as I'm concerned. You could simply add a whole heap of brand new weapons, where each empire has their own variants and each set exist to achieve certain end goals, but thats what we already have. All three heavy assault weapons exist mainly to kill infantry, but they all do it in different ways.

If we were to get heaps of new weapons that didn't have end goals, but more defined stats like firing rate, reload rate, ammo capacity etc. we'd eventually just have the same vanilla situation. Weapons in different empires with the same stats, but different appearance.

Theres no solution to gain the ultimate balance you want, but to cause all the weapons to be statistically identical, and I definitely don't want that.

[Rayder]

Ash, thats what the whole concept of being able to raid your enemies corpse is all about. Once you've killed an enemy, your able to take their weapons and use them.

The common pool weapons are there for a reason. They're there so you CAN change your tactics. JH not doing good for those long range encounters? Grab a Guass, Rocklet or Bolt Driver. Lasher not able to hit those guys behind that wall? A Thumper is what you need. MCG not cutting the AV? Grab a Deci.

Giving all three empires the other empires weapons is making this game into every other FPS. Your able to choose the same thing as everyone else at spawn. That is not what PS is about, its an MMOFPS, which in it, each empire has specific styles of play, and if you want another empires style, go steal their weapons.

I do think that there needs to be more empire specific stuff. Maybe some support weapons.

[BadAsh]

Hexen, Rayder... fair enough, good points.

I would like to see the 45 of the 55 items/vehicles that each Empire has be at least artistically reworked to look/sound different. Way too much common pool identical gear out there... Too much has the exact look, sound, and feel.

One thing I love about the 10 unique items/vehicles that each empire has is I can pretty much know when I hear them that then enemy is near and what empire the enemy is from. All this commom pool stuff takes away from that.... Hear a Reaver firing nearby? It means nothing intil you go investigate... :(

And I still like my "morphing base" idea :)

BadAsh

[Hexen]

Yeah well, I'd like to see less common pool stuff too. I just dont see the devs axing any common pool weapons, or simply changing them to look different for each empire. That pretty much brings back the vanilla scenario. If we just changed all the common pool weaps to look different for each empire, then you've got a whole heap of statistically identical weapons that look different.

Considering that all empires came from the TR, you could say all common pool weapons are TR equipment. That sucks IMO, but it makes sense (since we're all ex-Tezz). We might as well leave them as they are neway, if the devs start workin on new models and sounds they might as well be used to add new empire specific vehicles and guns, not just to assimilate common pool ones.

I still like morphing too though. :D

[Flammey]

:huh:

We're talking about PlanetSide still, right? Also, you're not typing in your sleep are you? Any alcohol involved in that statement?

No Veteran. I am serious. I played my Tr Konried character this morning, and she has DC, and I did extremely well with it. It started doing bad whenI gave it up for Prowler. I shouldn't have done that. I went from getting 10 kills to 1 death to 1-1 or worse. A MCG grunt just can't take on vehicles too well alone. Although, without adv target, I really don't know what kind of damage I was doing.

[Veteran]

No doubt you do well with the DC, it's just that Quasar and DC seem to me like apples and oranges.

[Flammey]

That's true. they are. DC is Anti-Vehicle, and Quasar is Anti Infantry. Yet if you learn the intricancy of the DC and where to aim, and how much damage you do per hit, you can figure out instinctively when you should be locked down, and when you should be able to move quicker. You eventually learn to know when that trooper your going up against DOESN'T carry a decimator. Those are usually the times when you move in closer for the kill. to stay on his tail as he runs, and keep shooting him, at least with one side of your gun. Quasar is different in the way it is handled. Limited flight is a extremely great advantage, especially against MAX's. Plus Armor piercing has it's own advantages. None of the other MAX's have armor piercing cababilities. So you are right. They are like Apples and Oranges. Yet they are both a direct fire weapon. And, once you learn how to hardly ever miss with the Quasar's single cannon, it's easier not to miss with the DC's dual cannons. THAT is what I meant by, "
After using a Quasar, DC is a breeze."

[Jagd]

Quasar also provides some excellent suppressive fire capabilities, and with armor piercing mode on you can kill an enemy MAX without reloading. Of course, every time you use AP you eat almost two full boxes of ammo.

[Veteran]

DC's primary use is Anti-MAX. Quasar gets unparalleled AI power and anti-MAX power that rivals the DC. I hope you guys are grateful.

[Flammey]

However, TR have the best AA MAX. If that Burster is locked down, and that flak starts hitting you, you really don't stand a chance.