AV weapons

[MYcrimsonTEARS]

man i hate to fight vechs witht he lancer... i can hit them and all but it just seems like im doing nothing but crach paint... how goes the other empiers AV weapons :D

i wish they would make a new catagory call "anti-max" and put all the AV weapons we have now in there and make brand new AV weapons that are not that avective at fighting max... just a thought.

[Chaaos]

They do have an anit-max. It's the almighty one-shot-kill vs max decimator. :mad:

[Tavin]

Decimator-- /shudder

I took 5 of those the other night... my poor Comet MAX!

[Neon Apocalypse]

comets are good

[Lithpope]

Can't speak for other empire AV weapons, not used them enough but, the much maligned Striker is a sweet weapon IMO. Sat on a base wall the other night with about 5 other striker users and we just flat owned anything that got even near the base (Mags, Threshers, Reavers, Skeeters, MAX's, etc.). Indoors, ya, the Deci is a better choice, in the field, a Striker owns a Deci. I cannot think a better weapon for a grunt to be packing while in the field. I would venture to say 30% of my kills are Striker kills. With the BP the TTK is down a bit but a pack of grunts packing Strikers in the field is something to be feared. I really wish more TR would cert this weapon.


It is also an excellent weapon for the AMS/ANT Driver to carry. That pesky Skeeter bugging you? Stop, jump out paint his ass and drop him out of the sky. It works well for bailingpilots too. I sucked at flying but, wound up winning a lot of my 1-1 engagments because I could bail and drop that wounded enemy with my striker.

[Duffman]

yea AV weapons are suppose o be used in groups and thats why they nerfed the striker because one person could own any vehicle.

[bryan25]

Doesnt it take 2 shots from a decimator? Each missle is 400 damage and the max has only 800 armor so it takes 2 shots.

[ghost018]

Decimator is two shots to kill a MAX.

ghost

[Nimbus]

I hate decimators
*is a MAX specialist*

[ViperGTS]

400 damage? So that would take me out in rexo in one shot? :scared:

[Chaaos]

I was just kidding about the one shot kill. Takes 2 to own a max.

[Rayder]

Decimators are devestating against armor, they don't do jack shit against infantry (except MAXs). And MAXs have 650 armor....

[GreyFlcn]

Sure would be nice if they doubled the Lancer projectile speed, and made it so that it took 15 VS energy ammo per shot :)

Wouldn't do much for it's firepower or storage, but it would make it a fun versitile weapon to carry again :D

[Rbstr]

Just up the AV damage a good amount on all of them, but leave the AI, Anti-Max and AA damages alone, and we have problem solved.

[apachepilotpat]

i agree with rbstr

[Queensidecastle]

Just up the AV damage a good amount on all of them, but leave the AI, Anti-Max and AA damages alone, and we have problem solved.
Precisely.

Oh, and the damage Decimators do against MAXs needs to be toned down. It wouldnt be a problem if the Decimator burdened your loadouts, but hell, Standard armors can carry it with ease

[Rayder]

especially with CSHD

[WritheNC]

Decimator damage vs. MAXes is fine imo.

I disagree with Queenside though. The decimator is quite a burden, unless you don't care to carry anything else. Like medkits.

[Chaaos]

I dont pack a deci... but i do use max occasionally so dont think my opinion is bias.

I wouldnt touch the dmg done to max's from deci's. Sure i get owned by them but thats why they call it a decimator isnt it? A couple shots from a max can kill an grunt, then why cant a grunt with the most powerful handheld weapon in the game kill a max with a couple shots?

[Rbstr]

i have one other thing the DEci should be AV not Special assultm its an AV wepon

[Rayder]

It's an AV weapon true, but it doesn't fill an AV role. Notice the empire AV weapons are not only fast, but able to hit vehicles? The decimator is slow.

If server side hit detection is ever a possibilty then the decimator would be perfect, but, since it's not and client side is a fucking bitch, it could do with some tonage down, not a lot, but right now, you get 1 ms over your opponent and your fucked.

[SkunkPunk]

make the lancer 3 hit infantry kill again and ill be packing it again...otherwise, its like a laser pointer, and what are u talking about... double projectile speed? its almost instant hit...

[Veteran]

Decimator is 1200 damage and occupies less room in the inventory than an equivalent amount of AV ammo. It also comes in a weapon group with three other weapons. It may be slow, but at point blank who cares? I shoot down Reavers and Mosqs all the time using the camera mode. It's just too good. Then again, such easy power tends to make friends, so don't expect a lot of people to support its removal.

[Rayder]

Its toned down to, 400 for maxs, and shit for softies.

[RagingSpeedhorn]

I dropped Striker for SA when the nerfed it in the balance patch patch. I miss it because it owned air and land vehicles outside, especially in large numbers.

I return though, I get a MAX killer (Deci), a grenade launcher that can disable turrets, tanks, lob plasma and AI grenades, and a baddass rocklet gun that can emplty a clip in under 5 seconds.

It takes a while to get skilled in SA, but not a bad deal, eh?

[Zatrais]

I dropped Striker for SA when the nerfed it in the balance patch patch. I miss it because it owned air and land vehicles outside, especially in large numbers.

I return though, I get a MAX killer (Deci), a grenade launcher that can disable turrets, tanks, lob plasma and AI grenades, and a baddass rocklet gun that can emplty a clip in under 5 seconds.

It takes a while to get skilled in SA, but not a bad deal, eh?

Pretty much what most Terran troopers did, including me. Striker aint worth it.
Love my deci, only thing that gives me a chance against the VS MAX hoards hehe.

[kerosene31]

yea AV weapons are suppose o be used in groups and thats why they nerfed the striker because one person could own any vehicle.

I agree. One infantry with an AV weapon should not be able to go one on one with a tank. If that is possible, then what is the purpose of a tank exactly? It is rare to go solo vs one AV carrier. Going up against the TR and NC I see tons of Phoenixs and Strikers.

I don't see what the problem with tanks in PS is. They are big, have lots of armor, and have a lot of firepower. AV weapons should not be balanced to where they can take on a tank one on one. That is what other tanks, reavers, and groups of infantry are for.

[Mudflap]

Well, as a lancer user, I can drop some armor by myself. Lightnings go down when I see em. What pisses me off is that I tend to be the only one shooting at them. It seems to me that most infantry don't pack anything that can touch armor, or they don't pay attention.

If I see armor, I shoot at it, unless I'm all alone, then I hide.

I don't think that the AV abilities of the AV cert need a boost. Each empire has their thing, and they do well against vehicles, when used by two or more grunts. I see vehicles blow up often enough as it is. Being in a vehicle is tough anymore, especially a light vehicle.

I might like to see some abilities versus infantry, but I can see how that would unbalance things.

[Doppler]

Were not asking for the power to take out tanks one on one, but honestly at least in base assaults its not the AV that usualy kills tanks and enforcers, its the decimators delivered at close range. The problem the way it stands now is it takes 6 Phoenix rockets to take out an ant. Thats just wrong, it shouldnt be one for one against a tank, however AV troopers need to be in literal hordes to even scare a tank off, not cool at all. As far as I'm concerned Deci should be AV, or it should be both, having the most potent anti armor weapon in the game be not in AV, plus bundled with 3 other weapons for the same cost is just disgusting.

[kerosene31]

The problem the way it stands now is it takes 6 Phoenix rockets to take out an ant. Thats just wrong,

See I disagree. All that is is 3 people firing two shots each. Having 3 people with Phoenix's in a big battle is not unusual. As a matter of fact, having only 3 would be unusual. My problem is that everyone claims AV weapons are weak, yet I see Strikers and Phoenixs everywhere.

[Doppler]

I see tanks everywhere too, your point?

The reason you see them (and Ill pull and post the thotbot stats) is because people have this issue with being aircraft fodder, and no a phoenix wont save you if a reaver comes down, but it might save the guy after you.

[Madcow]

yea AV weapons are suppose o be used in groups and thats why they nerfed the striker because one person could own any vehicle.

They nerfed the Striker because it was too powerful against MAXs and air. It was never too powerful against vehicles, and now it's certainly not worth using against vehicles. One person could not own any vehicle, unless the driver and gunner were both mildly retarded. I unloaded 12 Strikers (pre-patch) into a Magrider and didn't kill it, and was out of missiles. Do you have any idea how long it takes to connect with 12 Strikers? If the gunner hadn't been clueless they would have wiped me out long before I fired half of those.

I think the main problem right now is that the armor on MAXs is classified exactly the same as the armor on vehicles. If something is AV, it's automatically good against MAXs. The fact that the MAXs have a fraction of the armor in vehicles automatically makes this a bad deal for them.

And to whoever made the statement about MAXs killing people in 2 shots (therefore making the deci a fair weapon) please point me to which MAX you're referring to. Only the Scattercannon comes close, and it's still more than 2 shots. The VS has no MAX that can kill a softie in less than a dozen or so shots, the TR has the Pounder and I'm not sure how many 'nades it would take but it's more than 2, the NC has the Scatter which is the most effective 1 on 1 w/ infantry. So which MAX was it again (because it sure sounded like you thought most MAXs could do it)?

[Madcow]

I see tanks everywhere too, your point?

The reason you see them (and Ill pull and post the thotbot stats) is because people have this issue with being aircraft fodder, and no a phoenix wont save you if a reaver comes down, but it might save the guy after you.

Thott still hasn't updated from yesterday, but previous stats are here:

http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2003-12-14/1/

Lancer has fallen right off the map, Striker is still used by a decent amount of people and a lot of NC have the AV cert. I credit this less to it being an incredibly useful AV weapon (it's great against MAXs, okay against vehicles) and more to the fact that it's actually fun to use and a different aspect to the game. The NC I created has only that and medium, and I've had a decent amount of fun with him in the time I've played him. Close to 20% is actually a lot more than I would have thought any of the AVs would have.

[Mudflap]

Fewer than 10% of Vanu have AV. That explains why I'm the only one shooting at armor. I don't think that the Lancer is a crappy weapon against vehicles, it just takes 3 people with em to scare a tank away, and I haven't seen 3 Lancers since they were nerfed. I didn't have a Vanu I played regularly before the nerf, so it's no biggie to me.

I think it takes at least 3 people to scare away any tank. Everytime I shoot a tank, they move to take me out instantly. This alone shows that they perceive me as a threat. I'm sure I'm doing more damage than anyone else. The Pheonix should rock, since they have no clue where it's coming from typically. I think that's one reason some people complain that NC is overpowered. The other empires need more AV certs!

[Queensidecastle]

When a person who has both the AV cert and SA cert continuously and always grabs a decimator loadout to defend a tower, you KNOW there is a problem

[Mudflap]

To defend a tower.....

There is the flaw in your reasoning. Tower defense is against MAXes, not vehicles typically. Besides, when going against an NC tower, about 100% of the time there's a pheonix user or two shooting out of the top levels.

Pheonix=AV
Deci=Anti-Max

I know the Deci is good AV, but not on an open battlefield. You'll rarely hit a vehicle, and even more rarely hit a plane.

[Doppler]

Actualy depending on the distance its not that hard to lead targets with the deci. Plus you hit a vehicle with you av, so what, he's either driving off or getting ready to own you. Towers are even better for deci's as you can lean over the railing fire down, hit hard and move.

[Rayder]

My VS char used to have the Lancer, but I traded it in for Armored Assault. Lancer IMO is the best Anti-MAX AV weapon for direct line of site contact. It takes 6 shots to take out a MAX, and the charge up time gives you some time to line your shot up.

[GreyFlcn]

Thing is Rayder, now that they changed Phoenix to have 250m range, and 3 second reload, and Dummy fire it can do everything Lancer could do against maxes AND MORE.

6~7 second Indoor Max kill? Sure. 3 Shots, 2 Three second reloads.
You can even hide behind a corner most the time.

Outdoor MAX killing? HAH, do I even need mention it?

Outdoor Infantry killing? All too easy, all too often.

Good backup Pistol for Agile? Check.

AA Tower defence? Check.

Sit inside a courtyard wall, inside a ring of mines, cloaked, right next to an AMS terminal? Check.

[Queensidecastle]

AV from a distance is everybit as good at killing MAXs is as a Decimator except it blows for taking out vehicles. The Decimator is Anti-everything. I dont know about you but any vehicle including aircraft that shows up on the mini-radar map is game for a decimator. I know I certainly dont have any trouble whatsoever blowing up vehicles with decimators from tower walls, and MAXs are even easier to blow up.

So what you have is a non-AV weapon that is better at AV than AV is. That certainly doesnt make sense to me especially considering that AV was clearly designed with Inventory loadout burdon to be the ballancing factor. The decimator has no inventory issues when ttk and total damage of AV per pack space unit is concerned.

[Seer]

I've always been on record as saying the 3 shot infantry lancer kill wasn't too bad in terms of balance, considering the Lancer's shortcomings. I haven't played Sere (oldtime AV/HA rexo) since the change, even though he still has the lancer and lasher on him.

I also want the old Lasher back. The slow firing, slow moving one. People underestimated the crap out of that thing. *sigh*

Anyway, I wish they'd consider reviewing the Lancer. It's still a powerful weapon, but it's always been difficult to use properly and that alone may acount for the statistical chasm.

[Madcow]

Outdoor Infantry killing? All too easy, all too often.


I would like to see the Phoenix toned down against softies. That thing can tear a softie apart pretty quickly, and the NC becomes the only empire with something that can so efficiently counter snipers. If an NC base is under assault they can stand near an AMS (as already mentioned) without fear of using up all their precious ammo and send those missiles out hitting anything that moves. Unless I'm mistaken, it's 3 Phoenix's to take out a soft target which makes it just as efficient as taking out a MAX. In the case of a sniper, the Phoenix user has the added benefit of almost certainly being able to place themselves where the sniper has no chance of getting a shot on them.

In regards to the obvious question, yes a sniper can move beyond the 250 m. Phoenix flight limit if the landscape allows. The Lancer got toned down against infantry and the Striker has never been useful against infantry, now the Phoenix seems a bit too effective in that regard.

[Doppler]

First off if your using phoenix's for counter snipe, your opponents are idiots. It is very easy for an infantryman to dodge an incoming phoenix missle, secondly lets get this away from an empire frest by saying that all AV weapons need some help.

[Rayder]

Grey, the Phoenix will never match the Lancer for direct line of sight anti-MAX. You've got the travel time for the rocket (which is much slower compared to the Lancer's bolts), the reload time, and the camera switch time. If a MAX got hit by a dumbfire phoenix at range, then that guy's an idiot. The Lancer can fire it's 6 shots faster than the Phoenix can fire the 3 that are needed to kill a MAX. Also, the Lancer has more ammo, so you can afford to miss a few.

[Rbstr]

I just have to say the logic behind 3 people firing two shots each to an Ant is flawed, firstly they reload time is Imence and the ant has time to flee, you will rarely have 3 pheonix user fire on the same target, or even have 3pheonix users near each other, unless its a big battle. AV just need to do more AV damage, but nothing else, before the peroblems with AV were the AA and AM damages, those have been fixed but now tanks are nearly invonerable(sp) to all but the most massive amounts of AV users, the last i checked it takes nealy 8 phoenixes to take out a lighing, thats almost a minute worth of firing if the thing isn't right up next to you (pheonix has to be shot guided to the target, and detonated before you can reload, then reloading takes a very ond time compared to other things, then you have to guide the next shot tall the way there , and repeat)

Oh yeah it takes 3 pheonix shots to kill an infantry man, if you hit him dead on(agile not reinforced) they are incredibly hard to hit because they ar samll and fast and agile. You can't come back around to hit stuff if you miss either witch some peole seem to think, the flight time is to short.

Also if you are inside an AMS you can't see anything from the cammera mode, it acts liek the missle is in the bubble too. And indoor max kills are impossible with all the people there and the enemy infantry running around

[Madcow]

First off if your using phoenix's for counter snipe, your opponents are idiots. It is very easy for an infantryman to dodge an incoming phoenix missle, secondly lets get this away from an empire frest by saying that all AV weapons need some help.

First, the ability to remote detonate the Phoenix negates the ability to 'dodge' the missile. The splash is plenty sufficient to take out softies, or MAXs for that matter.

Second, right you are. The Striker went from being just about right against ground vehicles (but too good against reavers/mossys/MAXs) to being bad against just about everything. The Lancer went from being too good against soft targets (but too difficult against vehicles for the most part) to being weak against just about everything. The Phoenix is a bit too strong against MAXs (and soft targets in my opinion) and is a bit too difficult to hit moving vehicles with (air especially).

I really think they need to reclassify the MAX armor so that it's not in the same pool as vehicle armor. While AV weapons should be effective against MAXs, none should be devastating against MAXs. No AV weapons need to be effective against soft targets. Each AV weapon should be an effective deterrent to some degree to air and ground vehicles. I would think 15+ shots per tank, a handful less accordingly to each of the lesser vehicles. Too much to make it feasible for a single soldier to hold vehicles back themselves, but enough so that multiple coordinated soldiers can quickly do serious damage. The Striker should do the least damage because of it's lock capability (although the lock might need a little more forgiveness), the Lancer should do the most and the Phoenix should be somewhere in between (with a little love in the cornering department to make it a bit easier to hit air targets). If the Phoenix were toned down against MAXs, it would also make sense to finally give it a 2 shot magazine.

[SandTrout]

The phoenix does not get 3 shot kills on softies. It takes about 5 to kill a reinforced, and if the missile misses, it is liable to overshoot before it can be remotely detonated.

The striker is great vs Air still, especialy with more than one user. It's anti-vehicular abilities are as questionable as any of the other AV weapons.

The lancer is a fine AV weapon, but I don't think that nerfing its AI capacity, at least as much as it was, was a good decission.

I think that only a slight increase in the AV weapons' damage should be in effect, just enough that it doesn't decrease the TTK on a full armored MAX. Instead, the main buff to AV should be decreaseing the sixe of the ammo boxes to the same as the standard ammo box or increase in the amount each box carries.

Phoenix: change it to 300 damage per round and have each box carry 4~6 rounds.
Stiker: Leave damage the same, shrink ammo box.
Lancer: Increase damage slightly, use standard energy at 15-20 cells per shot.

[Rayder]

Bah, one of the Phoenix's only limitations is it's low ammo capacity. It's fine as it is.

[Madcow]

Phoenix: change it to 300 damage per round and have each box carry 4~6 rounds.
Stiker: Leave damage the same, shrink ammo box.
Lancer: Increase damage slightly, use standard energy at 15-20 cells per shot.

SandTrout, you do realize this appears more than a little biased towards your empire? The VS idea is a good one, but increase the damage on the Phoenix while leaving the Striker (previously gimped) alone? The Phoenix already does tons more damage than the Striker does. After all that you want Striker users to have to carry less ammo, even though their ammo doesn't do all that much damage? The NC already has (by far) the most popular AV weapon, and you are looking to give it some more love while kicking the TR AV into the dirt a bit more.

[Doppler]

Madcow I think your reading him wrong, he wants to shrik the ammo boxs to the size of a noraml box of ammo, not these huge tank shell box's were using now.

[Madcow]

Madcow I think your reading him wrong, he wants to shrik the ammo boxs to the size of a noraml box of ammo, not these huge tank shell box's were using now.

Ahhh, my bad. Thought he wanted to drop the box capacity back down, which is the last thing poor Striker users need right now.

Shrinking the boxes down would allow Striker users to carry an insane amount of ammo, it's an interesting idea. It probably would increase the number of people using it just because it would become a lot more convenient to rexo and have the Striker plus a normal weapon, and be able to carry enough ammo for each without a tremendous amount of effort.

[Doppler]

I persoanly think the ammo box lise on AV is ludicrus, they should either carry many more shells or be the size of a normal box of ammo.

[Rayder]

The box sizes are ment to make sure no one single person can go out and dominate the field. Just think about it, they would have to change the amount of ammo in the boxes if they were to make them smaller. In a Rexo, you can have as much as up to 72 rounds of thumper or rocklet ammo (using these because the Lancer has the largest ammo size and it's the same as the thumper/rocklet). So, that would be 60 for the Striker, and 36 for the Phoenix. Don't tell me that isn't enough for one person to decimate armor.

[LesserShade]

Pretty much what most Terran troopers did, including me. Striker aint worth it.
Love my deci, only thing that gives me a chance against the VS MAX hoards hehe.
Yeah same here. I've only been back to the game a few days since i last played during beta and I wasn't aware of a striker nerf until I specced it. Needless to say 24 hours later I respecced for SA. It's not a bad weapon by any means, but it isn't worth the 3 points anymore when you can't single handedly own any reaver or max, not with SA being the same cost and so much more versatile.

[Doppler]

Err i am sure that the striker/phoenix rockets are as big or bigger then the lancer ammo, i know they are bigger then rocklet gun ammo, and thumper ammo is the same size as a normal ammo box. Plus that one person is not going to decimate armor, because their damage versus that armor still sucks flaming dick, all were asking for, and I dont think this is unreasable, is for those few cases when were not caught up in the open field and taking a tank/rail shell in the teeth or being run over or what have you, we can take more then 6 shots before having to reload. I mean seriously it takes 6 shots for an ant, which is to my knowledge the lightest armored vehicle in the game, if you have time to get off all 6 shots from one person, there is no one int he vehicle your shooting at.

[Rayder]

If you mean the size of the ammo boxes are larger than that of the Lancer, then no. The ANT is not the lightest armored vehicle in the game. That would be either the Basilisk or the Wraith.