Upcoming JH Changes?

[infinite loop]

Pulled fresh off the dev tracker:

Actually my only desired change for the Jackhammer is....common sense.
Its a 3 barrel shotgun. If you fire once in primary fire then you (according to common sense) should have 2 shots left. To fire in alt mode (the 3 shot burst) should require a reload time for that one empty barrel. It doesnt. It should.

There should be a reload delay between firing in primary and alt modes if any shots have been fired. Its pretty much common sense.

Bugsmasher...it will.

So basically, doing a primary-fire, secondary-fire combo will no longer be very effective. I'm still digesting this, not sure how I feel. Thoughts?

[Manitou]

Leave it alone - no nerf needed.

If they would deal with the surging and use of the JH at the same time, I would be happy.

[SecondRaven]

Bah it will still rock

[Incompetent]

Sounds good to me

[BadAsh]

Playing both TR and NC with HA certs... I think the JH should just not have the secondary fire mode at all. It's powerful enough as it is with standard fire alone.

I don't want to start another "nerf the hammer" discussion, but with the NC raking in an average of just under *18% more kills per player than any other empire a few reasonable nerfs or buffs are in order. The TR and VS have a difference of less than 1% in their average kills per player. We just need to balance out the NC and the game will be much better overall.

*Taken from Thott's PS Stats that come directly from "My Planetside" on the official SOE site. So these are SOE's stats.

[Laeritides]

The nerf makes sense. Plus it will not nerf its hitting power. just make you think a lil before you jump to the tri shot mode.

[Liquidtide]

It's not a nerf, just common sense, it just took this long for someone to figure it out.

[JacobBauer]

/agree

[Hamma]

I renamed the title of this thread to use it for a comment thread, anything with "nerf" in it is bs lol. This isnt really a nerf if you read it.

[infinite loop]

I renamed the title of this thread to use it for a comment thread, anything with "nerf" in it is bs lol. This isnt really a nerf if you read it.

I respectfully disagree Hamma. This is most definitely a nerf. The primary + secondary fire combo is extremely effective in certain situations, and this would make that combo basically impossible. Taking something I can do in-game currently, and be effective with, and making it less effective, is a nerf IMHO. Nerfs are inherently evil, and may please some people, but do nothing but piss off the users of the nerfed weapon. Why can't they just use buffs to fix balance issues instead? Then everyone is happy!

More from the devs:

The tri-barrel reload time has effectively been a bug all this time. The original design calls for the tri-barrel to reload one barrel, then rotate, then reload another, then rotate, then reload the last. Fixing this brings it back to the balance intended...and it's overdue.
This doesn't decrease the power of the Jackhammer's tri-barrel attack at all. However, it does bring a price to using it...as intended.

And I have absolutely no fear that the tri-barrel will still be used. It's far too effective indoors to be ignored.

When I say "doesn't decrease", I mean that it doesn't reduce the damage caused by the tri-barrel attack. Of course it *does* reduce the potential damage of the weapon because it requires more reloading time in that mode. I didn't mean that it didn't.

[Bad Mojo]

I don't want to start another "nerf the hammer" discussion, but with the NC raking in an average of just under *18% more kills per player than any other empire a few reasonable nerfs or buffs are in order. The TR and VS have a difference of less than 1% in their average kills per player. We just need to balance out the NC and the game will be much better overall.

*Taken from Thott's PS Stats that come directly from "My Planetside" on the official SOE site. So these are SOE's stats.


Correlation does not imply causation.

[Hamma]

Well, I disagree. Your lucky i made this a comment thread at all. The word nerf is tossed around when anyone disagrees with a change. It dosent matter if it really is a nerf or not.

[gonnagetyou]

I really don't see it being a nerf either. People will just learn to only use the alt fire when they are going 1 on 1. It's not like they are reducing the damage or anything. It will still be the hardest hitting close combat weapon available.

[Firefly]

The Jackhammer is already the king of indoors, with its primary. WHICH, I might add, is undisputably where it counts. Giving it a secondary just slaps everyone else in the face.

The other HA weapons should have a secondary mode then. Like, for the MCG? I could throw it at someone, and do way more damage.

[infinite loop]

Well, I disagree. Your lucky i made this a comment thread at all. The word nerf is tossed around when anyone disagrees with a change. It dosent matter if it really is a nerf or not.

I edited my post abit right after you replied, check it again if you can. My main point is, a nerf only makes people angry. Why would they do that? I don't understand. Buffs are better than nerfs, and they should instead buff the MCG and Lasher if this is such a problem. It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the change.

And sorry, but what's with the attitude of me being lucky this is a comment thread? I'm just having a discussion here, no need for that.

[Otherick]

YAY the JH got a nerf.. or ehh it got common sense yay.

Its sounds praticle and it fits so now maybe it will hinder the Surgile JH players

[Spee]

Just....Delete HA.



[/tiredofit]

[TheRagingGerbil]

My bolt driver and gauss/sweeper is all I need...

[JakeLogan]

/agree with spee delete HA I'll be happy with my cycler

[Fenrys]

Yeah, just eliminate HA all together and we'll have a much more funerer game :p

[Spee]

Its already been said, but PS ! = Your average FPS. Thus, it shouldnt have weapons that can kill you THAT quickly. Im tired of lemmings (of ALL empires, not just NC) running around with HA and pwning you before you can turn around. I dont mind surgemonkeys, as they generally have a tiny IQ and you just need to find a hiding spot to get them.


Seriously. Theres little to no tradeoff with HA, aside from the small amount of certs it requires (4 isnt that much when you can get it fresh out of VR.) Just Eliminate HA and buff the maxes.

[BadAsh]

Correlation does not imply causation.

True, but I feel reasonably safe with my assumption due to the prevailing belief here in the forums that the NC have �better equipment�. To back up the �better equipment� theory are the stats that prove the NC as a whole, across all 3 servers, are significantly more effective in terms of raw killing power� nearly 20% more effective. The only differences between the empires are their equipment, so that is where the problem(s) will be found.

The 2 NC items that always come into conversation are: The Jackhammer and the Vanguard. If you search the threads here on PSU and in the OF you will find many (probably too many) threads about how the JH or Van need to be nerfed and how it is widely believed that both of these items are the best in their respective categories. Conversely, you won�t find any that state how either of these need a buff because they are too weak.

[BadAsh]

Its already been said, but PS ! = Your average FPS. Thus, it shouldnt have weapons that can kill you THAT quickly. Im tired of lemmings (of ALL empires, not just NC) running around with HA and pwning you before you can turn around. I dont mind surgemonkeys, as they generally have a tiny IQ and you just need to find a hiding spot to get them.


Seriously. Theres little to no tradeoff with HA, aside from the small amount of certs it requires (4 isnt that much when you can get it fresh out of VR.) Just Eliminate HA and buff the maxes.

I disagre with this. Fresh out of VR you have several choices of domination.

For 6 certs you can get the powerful MA+HA combo and own infantry CQB
For 5 certs you can get UniMAX and kick major tail
For 4 certs you can get Air Calvary and own the sky
For 6 certs you get the powerful Tank/Flail and Engineering combo...

The problem with HA that many players have is they try to fight HA on HA's prime turf... indoor CQB. Bad move. Get your own HA or a AI MAX to deal with that threat... don't go in with your MA or suppressor and expect to win. You need the right gear for the right situation.

The same applies for when you are outside. You can't charge a tank or attack a reaver with HA, MA, or a Suppressor and expect to win. You need to get your own aircraft or vehicle to fight back effectively.

And to your comment about being tired of people owning you with HA before you can turn around... any infiltrator can own you with an AMP pistol before you can turn around... weapons should not be so weak as to forgive being completely out flanked like that...

To beat HA just learn the weakness of the weapon... RANGE. If you are MA on a base wall and the HA is at ground level either in the CY or outside the base... you will win. HA will also lose to SA in a big way in that same situation. Also, if you catch HA at a distance you can kill them way before they get into optimum range.

But, time after time people charge HA with a lesser weapon and so the ownage continues.

I see the same thing when driving a tank or flying a reaver. I'm amazed at how many people that I did not even see plink at me as I drive by. I turn around and butcher them and get the hate tell... I can't help but laugh.

[Bad Mojo]

True, but I feel reasonably safe with my assumption due to the prevailing belief here in the forums that the NC have �better equipment�. To back up the �better equipment� theory are the stats that prove the NC as a whole, across all 3 servers, are significantly more effective in terms of raw killing power� nearly 20% more effective. The only differences between the empires are their equipment, so that is where the problem(s) will be found.

The 2 NC items that always come into conversation are: The Jackhammer and the Vanguard. If you search the threads here on PSU and in the OF you will find many (probably too many) threads about how the JH or Van need to be nerfed and how it is widely believed that both of these items are the best in their respective categories. Conversely, you won�t find any that state how either of these need a buff because they are too weak.

I wouldn't so easily use forums from any site as some kind of basis to levy action against any empire. It's all hearsay. And even if stats are the same across servers, it still doesn't point to any specific cause. But, if you're willing to embrace the assumption based on hearsay and coincidental statistics, then who am I to argue.

[Hamma]

I edited my post abit right after you replied, check it again if you can. My main point is, a nerf only makes people angry. Why would they do that? I don't understand. Buffs are better than nerfs, and they should instead buff the MCG and Lasher if this is such a problem. It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the change.

And sorry, but what's with the attitude of me being lucky this is a comment thread? I'm just having a discussion here, no need for that.
The content of the thread was fine, it was just the title i edited :)

I didnt say the comment thing to be an ass, It's just allot of times I usually delete threads that post news and create my own. But yours already had a nce discussion going :) don't worry, no h8 :love:

[Hamma]

Just....Delete HA.



[/tiredofit]
best idea ever.

[Rayder]

Well, I took the time to look the word "nerf" up, and here is what Dictionary.com says;

Nerf http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dnerf) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (n�rf)

A trademark used for a variety of foam rubber toys.

This is from Thesaurus.com

2 entries found for nerf.

Entry: impactFunction: verbDefinition: hitSynonyms: bang into, clash, collide, crack up, crash, crush, jolt, kick, nerf, register, smash, smash up, strike, wrack upConcept: hittingSource: (http://thesaurus.reference.com/help/about.html) Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright � 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
Entry: jostleFunction: verbDefinition: bumpSynonyms: bang into, bulldoze, bump heads, butt, crash, crowd, elbow, hustle, jab, jog, joggle, jolt, nerf, nudge, press, push, push around, push aside, scramble, shake, shoulder, shove, squeeze, thrustConcept: pushingSource: (http://thesaurus.reference.com/help/about.html) Roget's Interactive Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.0)
Copyright � 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved

[Hamma]

That needs to be updated :lol:

[infinite loop]

The content of the thread was fine, it was just the title i edited :)

I didnt say the comment thing to be an ass, It's just allot of times I usually delete threads that post news and create my own. But yours already had a nce discussion going :) don't worry, no h8 :love:

My bad hamma, just a misunderstanding then. Maybe nerf is a bit strong, but that was my initial reaction when I heard the news. I'm just so tired of the weapons being changed all the time. Deep down I know that finding a balance is good for the game, but it is just a pain in the ass sometimes.

[Madcow]

I wouldn't so easily use forums from any site as some kind of basis to levy action against any empire. It's all hearsay. And even if stats are the same across servers, it still doesn't point to any specific cause. But, if you're willing to embrace the assumption based on hearsay and coincidental statistics, then who am I to argue.

Bad Mojo
AGN Staff

New Conglomerate - Emerald


We all kick and scream for that which we hold dear, do we not?

Edited to add:

Do you know how we figure things out scientifically? Really, the first step is to have a theory. In this case your 'hearsay' is the theory. The next step is then to test that theory. You test in order to come up with evidence which will either prove or disprove the theory at hand. Statistics, oddly enough, are the form in which the evidence often is presented. Now if this were a true scientific test, we'd be given the opportunity to adjust the items (in this case Jackhammer and Vanguard) accordingly to see if those adjustments would then bring the statistics back in line, as the theory believes. Unfortunately we don't have the power to go that extra step, so our experiment ends prematurely with a fairly good foundation on which to argue it's case. Those that don't believe the argument are left with weak efforts to discount the statistics without bothering to actually offer up a feasible alternative.

[Rbstr]

yeha i agree the 1 shot then tri shot was a bug, they just need to make it so there is a reload time before you can trishot if you jsut fired single shot

[Fenrys]

If reducing the rate of fire is not a "nerf" then nothing is.

If they buffed everything except for 1 weapon, that weapon would have been nerfed because its compairative power was decreased.

Lower a stat on a weapon (one that is more usefull at higher values) and that weapon has been nerfed . . . just because that is the definition of a nerfing.

[I Hate Pants]

Just....Delete HA.



[/tiredofit]
/agree

/agree with spee delete HA I'll be happy with my cycler
/AGREE!!!!! The cycler is all you really need.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

A) I completly agree with the point that HA owns indoors. The problem is that Jackhammers are the best of the best. They are a shotgun. So if you get inside and have your own MGC/Lasher then you lose.

B) This is a nerf. However its a practical one. If you dont like NC changes then get the hell out of this game. Your not welcome. If they were to nerf the VS maxes I would dislike the change but understand that it was needed. And if they nerfed them REALLY bad then I would just quit. I expect you to do the same.

C) The argument that the NC average 18% more kills is flawed. We have no way to determine WHY that average is there.

[VashTheStamped]

Leave it alone - no nerf needed.

[infinite loop]

A) I completly agree with the point that HA owns indoors. The problem is that Jackhammers are the best of the best. They are a shotgun. So if you get inside and have your own MGC/Lasher then you lose.

Well this is a bit of another topic, but I have to disagree wholeheartedly. There are alot of different ranges indoors, and the JH is most definitely NOT the master of all indoor ranges. At anything over 15m or so, between a JH user and a Lasher/MCG user, if both start firing at roughly the same time, the JH should lose. At anything closer, or if the JH user has surge, the JH should win. All 3 HA weapons have their own distinct strengths indoors.

[BadAsh]

Well this is a bit of another topic, but I have to disagree wholeheartedly. There are alot of different ranges indoors, and the JH is most definitely NOT the master of all indoor ranges. At anything over 15m or so, between a JH user and a Lasher/MCG user, if both start firing at roughly the same time, the JH should lose. At anything closer, or if the JH user has surge, the JH should win. All 3 HA weapons have their own distinct strengths indoors.

IL, you have a good point... but the JH is the only one that got the excellent combo implant. JH+Surge+Agile=winning combo. The JH has an implant/armor combo that directly helps negate it's one weakness. Now if there was an implant/armor combo to assist the MCG and Lasher maintain medium range... then the JH would lose it's top slot.

Maybe the new buffed Rexo would help... if you can't keep that surgile JH at medium range, perhaps you can survive an extra shot or two allowing you to fight back...

[infinite loop]

A huge factor also, is the element of surprise. If I surge up to you with any weapon before you see me, you deserve to die. In that respect, the implant helps any weapon. But I hear what you're saying, surge does help make up for the JH's deficiencies, where there isn't one directly helping the other HA. Unless you count personal shield/second wind in that respect. But regardless, a good MCG or Lasher user should beat any JH user if he sees him coming. I really think that good JH users rely on surprise more than other players, but that's just a suspicion of mine, not based on any real fact.

[JakeLogan]

Well this is a bit of another topic, but I have to disagree wholeheartedly. There are alot of different ranges indoors, and the JH is most definitely NOT the master of all indoor ranges. At anything over 15m or so, between a JH user and a Lasher/MCG user, if both start firing at roughly the same time, the JH should lose. At anything closer, or if the JH user has surge, the JH should win. All 3 HA weapons have their own distinct strengths indoors.

This is true with the MCG keep some distance back away or if you have to retreat into a hallway hopefully you got some backup there. If your using a lasher however hope your in a hallway not much dancing room in there so if you don't get a direct hit your lashes will still get him.

[BadAsh]

C) The argument that the NC average 18% more kills is flawed. We have no way to determine WHY that average is there.

Not to sound to derogatory towards your thoughts, but IMHO common sense dictates this one. As previously mentioned... What is the ONLY difference between the empires? Their equipment.

Other theories for this imbalance that I�ve seen posted in various threads are humorous at best. I�ve heard a theory that it�s the empires goal that so greatly effects their performance. The NC fight for the noble cause of freedom while the TR are evil oppressors and the VS are a loony cult. Who can muster the effort to fight for an oppressor or a cult? Hearing this suggestion made my beer come out of my nose I was laughing so hard. Then I realized the posted was not joking� then I though OMG some people are either oblivious to reason, have a not-so-hidden agenda, or are just trying to spark a heated debate because they live for the flame war. The other one that kills me is the DEV plot favoring the NC theory. Some of guys make my stomach hurt. LOL Anyway, I digress.

OK, back to logic� because there is a clear problem with the NC (their statistically proven out�of-balance killing effectiveness) and the only possible cause is the one thing that differs between the empires. I don�t think we need an Einstein to perform quantum calculations and come up with the theory regarding the JH and Van.

This might be proven wrong, but until then what else do you think could cause such a disparity in the statistics? Do the NC have the market corned on skill? Do they just have masterful genius level tactical and strategically leaders on all 3 servers? What could possibly explain this problem? I�ve yet to hear anything that makes sense.

[infinite loop]

Ash - just curious, where are you getting these stats from? Just by eyeballing thott's, I can't see a disparity. Maybe I'm missing something.

[BadAsh]

A huge factor also, is the element of surprise. If I surge up to you with any weapon before you see me, you deserve to die. In that respect, the implant helps any weapon. But I hear what you're saying, surge does help make up for the JH's deficiencies, where there isn't one directly helping the other HA. Unless you count personal shield/second wind in that respect. But regardless, a good MCG or Lasher user should beat any JH user if he sees him coming. I really think that good JH users rely on surprise more than other players, but that's just a suspicion of mine, not based on any real fact.

Yeah, when I use the JH I like to set an ambush in a hallway using one of the little niches they have in some areas. I just turn on audio amp, crouch, have my JH ready and watch for a red dot to get just close enough to where he can't quite see me yet... then it's hammer time... usually I bust people with their weapons still holstered... I kill them and then get a hate tell about how I'm a lame surgile+JH user....

Um... no, you got owned by an ambush not by a surgile hammer. I was patient and you were careless...

IMHO: The JH is the most effective of the 3 HA though. With my TR character I keep my locker stocked with Hammers just in case I need them. With my NC character there is nothing I really want. One day I amused myself by making a nice spread of all the empire specific weapons and AT weapons in my locker. It looks like one of those Hollywood style Small arms arsenals you always see the Hero owning. They press a button and the secret storage wall slides open to reveal a display of various handguns, SMG�s and rifles. �Ash, BadAsh, secret agent. Licensed to kill." LOL :)

[WritheNC]

I think this is a fair change. Considering I don't use HA, its fine with me hehe.

Even as an NC I think its fine. Its true, it didn't make sense anyway.

[Rayder]

As previously mentioned... What is the ONLY difference between the empires? Their equipment.
BUZZ Johnny, tell the man what he *could* have won!

Well Bill, if he had answered that the intelligence of each empire's CR5's differs greatly, maybe he could have won the booby prize.

[BadAsh]

Ash - just curious, where are you getting these stats from? Just by eyeballing thott's, I can't see a disparity. Maybe I'm missing something.

Here:

http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2004-01-11/BR/kills.php

For each empire it shows how many average kills per enemy empire. Just add those together to get the total average kills.

Totals:
TR: 1369
NC: 1651
VS: 1368

Look how even the TR and VS are!!! That's as good as it gets! :) We just need to either bring those two up to the NC effectiveness level or lower the NC to be equal to the other two or some combination of adjustments... I think a good power balance is in the best interest of the game as a whole.

[BadAsh]

BUZZ Johnny, tell the man what he *could* have won!

Well Bill, if he had answered that the intelligence of each empire's CR5's differs greatly, maybe he could have won the booby prize.

So your theory is that on all 3 servers and out of the 850 CR5's (yes there are that many total) that the NC just happened to get all the "good" ones?

Possible, but so is buying a winning lotto ticket.

[Spee]

To beat HA just learn the weakness of the weapon... RANGE. If you are MA on a base wall and the HA is at ground level either in the CY or outside the base... you will win. HA will also lose to SA in a big way in that same situation. Also, if you catch HA at a distance you can kill them way before they get into optimum range.



On the catwalk of a bridge, I suddenly hear a jackhammer ghoing off, and myself taking damage. I turn in the direction, and a rexo is charging me. I fire off 2 shots of plasma, one direct, one way off, but still getting him, and, I got owned at 40m. Full health, Full armor.

[infinite loop]

Here:

http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2004-01-11/BR/kills.php

For each empire it shows how many average kills per enemy empire. Just add those together to get the total average kills.

Totals:
TR: 1369
NC: 1651
VS: 1368

Look how even the TR and VS are!!! That's as good as it gets! :) We just need to either bring those two up to the NC effectiveness level or lower the NC to be equal to the other two or some combination of adjustments... I think a good power balance is in the best interest of the game as a whole.

Uhh not dispelling your post here, but I still don't see where you're pulling those numbers. I are teh dum

[BadAsh]

Uhh not dispelling your post here, but I still don't see where you're pulling those numbers. I are teh dum

Use that same link...

Note at the top of the chart is a "overall" total listing, use that one. It has a dual listing for each empire indicating the total overall kills for each of the 2 enemy empires. Add those up to get the grand total overall average kills.

Average Kill Totals:
TR: 737 NC kills + 632 VS kills = 1369 total average kills
NC: 854 TR kills + 797 VS kills = 1651 total average kills
VS: 654 TR kills + 714 NC kills = 1368 total average kills

[BadAsh]

On the catwalk of a bridge, I suddenly hear a jackhammer ghoing off, and myself taking damage. I turn in the direction, and a rexo is charging me. I fire off 2 shots of plasma, one direct, one way off, but still getting him, and, I got owned at 40m. Full health, Full armor.

So you are suggesting the JH is a good long range weapon? I've personally never effectively used it against any target past very short range.

As for your example I dunno... I know the weapon is next to useless at the ranges you are describing... maybe as he started firing you got sniped? I guess we could do some JFK style theorizing here :) But I suspect another shooter or lag... he might have been right on you but it seemed like half a mile away...

Believe me I tried to get the JH to work at a better range but it just is useless. If you are on a base wall shooting down at attackers you are wasting your time... better off with a suppressor or any MA weapon... going to the caverns also taught me this lesson... my cavern load out is Rexo/JH/Gauss... so I can shoot back at guys trying to MA "snipe" me from elevated firing positions...

[Jagd]

The downside to the MCG, which nobody seems to acknowledge, is that you have to crouch and/or stop moving to have any accuracy. As for the jackhammer, I'm glad somebody finally thought through the whole reload time thing but until they nerf the damage somewhat, it's going to be eating us for dinner for years to come.

The point about the ultimate cert+implant combo is bang on, maybe if they came up with a new implant that helped out the automatic weapons we could put this all behind us. Call it Stabilized Limbs or something more catchy. It reduces the CoF of whatever weapon you're using, draining 1 point of stamina with every bullet you fire. This would buff pretty much all of the automatic weapons, while essentially having no effect on shotgun weapons.

[Seer]

I'll throw my lot in with 'remove HA entirely.'

[Diddy Mao]

As long as I can finally Do damage up close with the JackHammer after this next patch I could care less. I never really used the Triple shot unless I hit it by accident

[Incompetent]

So you are suggesting the JH is a good long range weapon? I've personally never effectively used it against any target past very short range. I think he's saying it starts at 40ms.

And yeah, if they axed HA, the game would be so much better, you know how everyone thinks beta was better then launch, well how often did you run into HA in (open) beta?

[Doppler]

It's not a nerf, just common sense, it just took this long for someone to figure it out.

You know why this "Common Sense" line of logic is wrong, because then we have to apply it to everything.

For example just in HA.

How is it that the MCG doesnt have attrocious cone of fire, considering its a big long heavy piece of metal with spining barrells that you fire unbraced while surging down a hallway. It never jams, it never overheats, it its weight with ammo must be atttrocious, yet the jackhammer is a "Common sense" issue, hello people its a sem automatic feed system, the number of barrels has no baring on that. But no people wanna go "sniffle they get more kills then us spork make it stop, i'm gonna completely ignore the fact that a reaver pilot will get more kills then a jackhammer guy any day, make it stop sporky make it stop."

Oh and before you ask, no i dont use HA.

[SkullOmania]

Delete HA? Agreed 100%, Gauss is all I ever need or want :)

[Biohazzard56]

But Gauss might be huring after rexo buff :tear:

[Veteran]

After the rexo buff I can't see anything but Thumper, Heavy Assault and maybe Sweeper cutting the mustard. 200 points of highly resistant armor that can be repaired in a few seconds by anyone with engineering? Wow.

If anything, it shifts the balance of power even more towards Heavy Assault.

I'm not entirely sure how the formulas work, but I think rexo should take damage as though it were a vehicle/MAX/armored unit. A Decimator would strip all their armor and 25 health, for example. Why should you get a tough armor shell with no drawback of susceptibility to anti-armor weapons? Just a thought though, I'm not convinced enough about my thinking on this to assert it.

[_-Gunslinger-_]

The feeding system of a jackhammer has an ammo feed choke point. It all come out of one box. Therefor while your fireing the second shot its reloading the first, third; second; and so on. So if you were to want to tripple burst it would have to fill all three chambers. So yes that is common sense dopplar. Btw jackhammers would jam like a motherfucker too.

This balance is completly warented.

BadAsh I was just pointing out that there is no way to prove those kills are based off of a gun/tank imbalance.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Ooohh Gunslinger Girls is a nice anime. ^^

Oh as for the JH issue, it seems fine to me, "fixing" the bug, or upping the power on the other weapons is fine as long as it's balance.

[Doppler]

The feeding system of a jackhammer has an ammo feed choke point. It all come out of one box. Therefor while your fireing the second shot its reloading the first, third; second; and so on. So if you were to want to tripple burst it would have to fill all three chambers. So yes that is common sense dopplar. Btw jackhammers would jam like a motherfucker too.

This balance is completly warented.

BadAsh I was just pointing out that there is no way to prove those kills are based off of a gun/tank imbalance.

Gunslinger, we have reliable orbital re-entry. Reliable ressurection tech, reliable teleporter tech, reliable (and fast) space travel, I think we whould have figured out how to keep a shotty from jamming. After all maybe thats what all that extra bulk to the JH is, a mechanical power assisted speed loading and unloading system.

We can split hairs on the realism bus all week.

[Jagd]

You know why this "Common Sense" line of logic is wrong, because then we have to apply it to everything.

For example just in HA.

How is it that the MCG doesnt have attrocious cone of fire, considering its a big long heavy piece of metal with spining barrells that you fire unbraced while surging down a hallway. It never jams, it never overheats, it its weight with ammo must be atttrocious, yet the jackhammer is a "Common sense" issue, hello people its a sem automatic feed system, the number of barrels has no baring on that. But no people wanna go "sniffle they get more kills then us spork make it stop, i'm gonna completely ignore the fact that a reaver pilot will get more kills then a jackhammer guy any day, make it stop sporky make it stop."

Oh and before you ask, no i dont use HA.

Well maybe you should try it. That uber MCG that works while surging? Yeah, it's just that it has an attrocious cone of fire, and if you want to get the mythical "balanced" TTK you are so fond of mentioniong, you must land every bullet pumped out the barrel. Good fucking luck. Crouch and stop moving and then, if your opponent co-operates and stops moving too, you just might pull off a kill as fast as the jackhammer. Oh but wait, he's moving around like an actual human player, trying to dodge your bullets. Now you have to actually sweep the crosshairs around, and oh shit look at that, there goes the cone of fire. I guess we won't be landing every bullet after all. :groovy:

[Vick]

ahhhhh, someone is whining about the MCG!!! my ears!!!

Really, MCG is THE BEST weapon in the game if you are any good.

JH surgile needs nerfage, dunno how anyone can say it doesnt. The 4shot thing is a bug, cause I dont thnik it used to work like that. JH should not be nerfed though, otherwise it will suck in rexo. It is already the worst HA to use in rexo, if you nerf the damage or something it will suxxor.

So find a way to nerf agile/HA without nerfing HA or agile.

[Bad Mojo]

Bad Mojo
AGN Staff

New Conglomerate - Emerald


We all kick and scream for that which we hold dear, do we not?


You'll notice none of my characters have HA.


Unfortunately we don't have the power to go that extra step, so our experiment ends prematurely with a fairly good foundation on which to argue it's case. Those that don't believe the argument are left with weak efforts to discount the statistics without bothering to actually offer up a feasible alternative.

Then you'll just have to leave the proper examination to the developers. Which you will, because you have no choice. Feel free to argue all damn day about what people in the forums utter as being the foundations for your argument. Like I said, if you want to base your "scientific theory" on what people in the OF say, you're free to do that. No matter how idiotic it might be.

As for MY personal feeling about the Jackhammer, I feel the devs know best and, having the actual data and ability to experiement, will make the changes they feel are best. That's my alternative to your devotion to the people who post in forums.

[Furluge]

I find it intresting how several people say that other empires HA's just need to be "Brought up to the level of the JH". Gee, where have we heard that before. Oh yes, the last batch of HA adjustments. I think it's safe to say that doing that /again/ isn't going to solve anything, and frankly, the idea is a little scarry.

Also, like people have mentioned before. The odds of one empire getting "all the good people" is really, really small unless one side started, say, compensating people or something else to make them pick that side or something else to compel them to make that choice.

[Madcow]

Then you'll just have to leave the proper examination to the developers. Which you will, because you have no choice. Feel free to argue all damn day about what people in the forums utter as being the foundations for your argument. Like I said, if you want to base your "scientific theory" on what people in the OF say, you're free to do that. No matter how idiotic it might be.

As for MY personal feeling about the Jackhammer, I feel the devs know best and, having the actual data and ability to experiement, will make the changes they feel are best. That's my alternative to your devotion to the people who post in forums.

Way to miss the point entirely! You have offered up to this point exactly zero theories for the statistical disparity. It's one thing to say "You have a theory and statistic to back it, but I have this theory and have this evidence to back it which disproves it". That's not what you're doing. What you're doing is attempting to belittle somebodies argument with absolutely no evidence at all, not even an opposing theory that's plausible. You're walking in thinking "Hey, if I talk like I'm smart and know what I'm doing that will be enough." Well, it ain't enough. Coincidental statistics? Please, give the forum a little bit of credit for intelligence. If you can't come up with something real, stfu.

[JakeLogan]

whoa he just bashed on a AGN guy :banplz: :p

[DSSurge]

heres an idea for a JH fix. Give it 9 shots till reload and we're good. The killing capacity per clip is well over that of the Lashers and shouldnt be compairable with that of the MCG seeing as to how it functions.

"Why nerf when you can just buff everything else so people don't bitch?"

[Doppler]

"Why nerf when you can just buff everything else so people don't bitch?"[/QUOTE]

Because people will always bitch.

[Gigabein]

"Why nerf when you can just buff everything else so people don't bitch?"

because PS is not supposed to be Quake

[Onizuka-GTO]

And the world need bitches to keep the world going round, don't they? ^^

[Veteran]

HA is balanced according to Thottbot.

The Jackhammer's alt-fire is bullshit to begin with, an ROF increase that violates the 'empire flavor'. Its reload time was a bug according to the devs, and will be fixed.

Jackhammer will change, deal with it. Everyone who said it should change is right, and everyone who said it was 'fine' is wrong.

Game over.

[Doppler]

Must resist.............urge to make............snide comment.

Edit:Edited to rise above.

[SWARM]

Wow...I came in on this thread a bit late...but all I have to say about the changes is "THANK GOD". Maybe the "bandwagon" empire will begin to lose it's luster. That combined with the TR MAX love we're about to recieve will make things great again. The same people whining now are the same ones that called everyone else whiners when they bitched about the JH. Ironic isn't it.

[Veteran]

Bandwagon is right. The majority of br20 soldiers are NC because of the Jackhammer and Vanguard. The number of TR and VS br20s are almost perfectly balanced. Funny that, eh?

It's not speculation, it's fact. Thottbot has become my new best friend for what was once the difficult task of pointing out the obvious.

Not to say NC doesn't have its fair shair of valiant warriors, but it's also got a few delusional partisans who could justify even the Wave Motion Cannon under their banner.

[DeadTeddy]

you people giving stats are absolutely rediculous. this game has had buffs and nerfes so many times since it came out, but the stats are about the total time. if you can track the last month, and only that, then we'll talk. those kills can be from release for all we know.

and if we're going for realism, my friend informed me a few months ago of a tri-barrel shotgun that exists in real life and can kill a dinosaur with one shot. barney is a dinosaur right?

[Gigabein]

So now we need solid statistical proof that JH/Van's are relatively over-advantaged, or else everyone's complaints are unfounded. Absolutely bluediculous.

I wonder how many times the devs followed this philosophy when deciding on what needed nerfing...

[KIAsan]

It's getting the nerf. Seen it coming for a while. So, instead of killing each other, lets just wait until they nerf it and see how it plays. We may all be happy with the results.

[DeadTeddy]

gigabein, the answer is "never". they have statistics, down to how many bullets were fired from each weapon by each empire and how much damage it did.

[BadAsh]

you people giving stats are absolutely rediculous. this game has had buffs and nerfes so many times since it came out, but the stats are about the total time. if you can track the last month, and only that, then we'll talk. those kills can be from release for all we know.

and if we're going for realism, my friend informed me a few months ago of a tri-barrel shotgun that exists in real life and can kill a dinosaur with one shot. barney is a dinosaur right?

Since you don't like statistical evidence then let's try common sense...

Why people hate the Jack Hammer:

There are several CQB situations where a mid-skill level JH user can kill any other infantry player 1 on 1. One such situation is camping the top of a turn in a staircase with a JH and Audio AMP. As TR I can surge up the stairs, get to the side or behind the target, and start unloading. He just turns around in tri-shot instagib mode and I'm dead.

In that example let's reverse the weapons... give me the insta gib HA and give him the slower TTK weapon. Now he is audio amp camping the top of the stairs and I surge up and *boom*boom*boom*!!! This time I win easily. Was this a case of mad skillz, or simply a case of weapon superiority? The answer is obvious.

Why you hear VS and TR pointing out that the Vanguard is too powerful:

The Vanguard simply put is the best bang for your buck in the game. The 150mm main gun is simply the best in its field. The MAG can't kill infantry with 1 hit from it's main gun. The prowler can kill infantry with 1 hit with its 100mm cannon BUT it must be a direct hit. The prowler is harder to aim because the way dual guns work with the crosshair (it moves with every shot). If a Van crew intentionally hunts "soft" targets during a zerg you'd be amazed with how many easy kills you can rack up... a 2 man squad/van crew will level up in BR like no one's business.

infantry Kill requirement summery:
Vanguard: 1 near hit = dead infantry
Prowler: 1 direct hit = dead infantry (harder to aim with AND you have to score a direct hit)
Magrider: 2 direct hits to kill an infantry

Phoenix, Striker, or Lancer?:

Lancer = joke; Striker = OK against aircraft or MAX units that are outside way in the open; Phoenix = King of AV. It drops a MAX in 3 hits and the camera mode is godly. Give me 4-6 good phoenix users and we will shut down an entire enemy base during a zerg vs. zerg siege. The enemy will be denied MAX units outside in their CY or walls. The enemy will have their aircraft and vehicles harassed like no one's business. This assumes they have a base that has an interior vehicle terminal (like the tech facility and drop ship center) otherwise it's one dead terminal and no vehicles will be allowed. Also, infantry die to phoenix rockets at about 3-4 hits as well. So have fun putting snipers anywhere or having a few guys on the walls with plasma thumpers they are going to get spanked. Oh and finally, all of your carefully placed spitfire turrets are gone too, they are one hit wonders to the phoenix user. So run inside and quiver in fear because it will soon be Scatter MAX and Surgehammer time! Oh, look the NC win again! Amazing huh?

In summery:

The JH = easy easy easy infantry kills
The Van = easy easy easy infantry/max/vehicle kills
The Phoenix = easy easy easy MAX kills/general harassment and terrorizing of everything else

The problem you face bring up the obvious in a public forum is that people who play NC tend to get turned into villains as if this series of game flaws is personally their fault. Also, NC players tend to strongly defend their equipment because it suggests that their kills/victories were somehow easier or less earned so this takes away from their reputation and suggests a lack of skills. Both are partially true. The NC does have many very good players, but they do have the best gear. I play TR and NC on Markov and there is just no comparison between the raw power of the NC�s gear and that of the TR. Combine that with the fact that the TR don't have MAX units that play nice with their own infantry and you see why the TR crumble time after time against the onslaught of the NC Zerg.

[JuSTCHiLLiN]

*Taken from Thott's PS Stats that come directly from "My Planetside" on the official SOE site. So these are SOE's stats.

Just for clarification. Thott's can't pull non-outfit characters so these are not SOE's "official" stats. I'd imagine they'd be pretty close though.

Not that I disagree with the 18% issue but stats can be viewed several different ways. Let's play devil advocate and see if there are any other possible reasons why the NC have more kills per person.

I've noticed that if you factor out the BR20s that things even out drastically. According to Thott's you're average Terran br 19 has 1433 NC kills and 1227 VS kills (2660 total), a Vanu br 19 has 1298 TR kills and 1400 NC kills (2698 total), and a NC br 19 has 1328 TR kills and 1239 VS kills (2567 total).

Why is there such a difference? Shouldn't a BR 19 NC have roughly the same amount of kills as a BR 19 TR or BR 19 VS?

The simple fact is that kills only go up but levels don't. Perhaps, there's more old school NC players STILL PLAYING. From BR15 to BR19, the New Conglomerate has the FEWEST average kills. A br 20 playing since beta with 16,000 kills is definately going to skew the results when compared against someone who just attained br 20 and has 4000 kills.

If you take out the BR 20 factor which can simply be due to the fact that there are more long-time br 20 new conglomerate players you see that it's not an issue.

If battle ranks continued open ended and you could show that empire X has a siginificantly more kiils at level Z then you have a case for the 18% factor.

[Spee]

and if we're going for realism, my friend informed me a few months ago of a tri-barrel shotgun that exists in real life and can kill a dinosaur with one shot.



A pistol can kill a dinosaur in one shot. Simply depends on how big the dinosaur is.


And how the shit did they come up with that figure? "Our shotgun has a "5 dinosaur" damage rating."


Bullshit, I cry!

[BadAsh]

Perhaps, there's more old school NC players STILL PLAYING

Perhaps, but because it holds true for all 3 servers... I doubt it. The various levels don't matter because once you achieve a certain amount of kills you get enough BEP to advance a level.

Also, the fact that br15-br19 NC have fewer kills than VS or TR of a silimar level does not surprise me either... since the NC overpower the enemy and win most of their battles they are always cashing in on the capture BEP. So the NC take on the TR and everyone gets kills, but when the battle is over the NC win and get that 3-4k bonus and the TR are recalling as usual. So with fewer kills the NC level up for that alone.

[Fenrys]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ditching HA all together. No JH, no MCG, no Lasher.

[BadAsh]

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of ditching HA all together. No JH, no MCG, no Lasher.

I'd be for that too, but ONLY if MAX units were ditched too... then you could actually have a place where infantry could have a clean fight without vehicles getting in the way... a max is a mini-walking tank that takes damage like a vehicle... so it's a vehicle that can go indoors...

Of course this would change the game to "sweeper wars"... but at least things would be fair.

[Onizuka-GTO]

A pistol can kill a dinosaur in one shot.

No. any weapon can kil a dinosaur, that's because they're dead already. :rolleyes:

[KIAsan]

Time to quit arguing about the JH. Smokejumper already admitted that the JH is SUPPOSED to be the MOST powerful HA in the game, AND the ONLY weapon to one-shot kill. So, there will be no changes. All of you who argue statistics about how good the JH is and the imbalance in kills, well, your right and the Devs admit it. Those who try to defend the JH by twisting the facts, well, you can stop now, since the Devs admit it to be unbalanced and wont be fixing it anytime soon.

Edit: Forgot the link: http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/001209.html

[Veteran]

I'd love to hear what Terran Republic's austensibly overpowered asset is supposed to be.

Our athletic supporters?

[KIAsan]

We don't have one in TR. Here is Smokejumper's exact quote: "The Jackhammer is still the most powerful weapon in the game, the only weapon that can one-shot soldiers (outside of vehicle weaponry) and still absolutely fearsome indoors."

It is the MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN THE GAME. Sounds pretty conclusive to me. They designed NC to be the most powerful. So, TR will never have a uber weapon. I just wonder what the balance to the JH is?????

[Veteran]

My guess is the time it takes to clean TR and VS blood off their armor balances the NC.

[infinite loop]

Time to quit arguing about the JH. Smokejumper already admitted that the JH is SUPPOSED to be the MOST powerful HA in the game, AND the ONLY weapon to one-shot kill. So, there will be no changes. All of you who argue statistics about how good the JH is and the imbalance in kills, well, your right and the Devs admit it. Those who try to defend the JH by twisting the facts, well, you can stop now, since the Devs admit it to be unbalanced and wont be fixing it anytime soon.

Edit: Forgot the link: http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/001209.html

I think you are misunderstanding what Spork is saying here, in relation to the thread that it is posted in. He never said it won't be changed, just that it won't be changed "significantly." So expect the triple shot "fix" to be coming, just like Smoke explained earlier. And at no point have the devs said that the JH is imbalanced. The fact that it is the most powerful weapon in the game does not inherently make it imbalanced. Balance must be considered by looking at the entire picture, not just where the JH excels. I'm not going to argue balance in this thread though. I just want to clear up what Spork is saying there. Basically, yeah it's the most powerful gun, and they won't be nerfing it significantly anytime soon.

[JakeLogan]

wow 7 page thread haven't seen one of these in awhile.............*waits for his Dual Cycler MAX to be switched back to Anti-Infantry*