Dopp's Controversial Ideas to save AV

[Doppler]

Ok this goes in a number of stages but Ill lay them out as such. First off let it be stated that these calculations go for direct hits, and do not include any extra protection given to vehicles by shields. Ill go through the basic phases and then come back and explain everything.

1. Make the decimator a 1 shot per tube weapon.
2. Make all AV weapons 1 shot per clip.
3. Reduce the amount of ammo carried per box in av to one round per box.
Ok the point of these changes is to keep the deci as a antimax weapon, however reduce it so one deci soldier doesnt automaticly own a MAX. The other point of these changes is to make being an AV trooper be a great longistics concern to go with the kick up in power i'm about to give them.

4. Bump all AV damage, make it deal a perecentage of health to each difrent type of vehicle. For example. MBT 20% Air Cav: 45% Buggy: 30% Ground Support 25% (AMS should get additional protection if deployed) ATV 60% Air support 20% (possibly more for the lib)
5. Remove 5 Min Timer on getting a new vehicle.
6. Give all vehicles some sort of protective field they may turn on for brief (few seconds) to defend against incoming missiles, the exact mechanics of this whould have to be worked out. Note that lancer shots should only be partialy deflected by the field because they are pure energy as exposed to kinetic energy, and to make up for their lack of guidance.

Ok this part is more or less self explanatory, the 5 minuete timer has really only ever been a hindrance to those who got their vehicle eaten by lag or by the tech plant air terminal or by someone mining in front of the vehicle term or what not. I see no particular compelling argument for keeping it.

Questions? Comments? Flames from the special assault set?

[Jagd]

Making the decimator 1 shot per tube would be insane. They already consume more inventory space than other infantry weapons, and having to go through 2 or 3 tubes (that's at least half of agile's storage space) to take down a MAX would be ridiculous. Buff AV or make the cert cheaper, but please leave SA alone!

Now that that's out of the way... I really like the idea of having some skill added into the shields equation. Why not make it so that it's like the NC MAX ability and you have to hit a key (deploy I would guess) to bring the shields up in time to absorb damage? This would make dogfights and tank battles a lot more interesting for drivers, and give us pilots a type of "jammer" to use when the Sparrow rockets are closing in, rather than wasting the shields on silly things like bumping into trees or catching stray ground fire.

[Zatrais]

Ok this goes in a number of stages but Ill lay them out as such. First off let it be stated that these calculations go for direct hits, and do not include any extra protection given to vehicles by shields. Ill go through the basic phases and then come back and explain everything.

1. Make the decimator a 1 shot per tube weapon.
2. Make all AV weapons 1 shot per clip.
3. Reduce the amount of ammo carried per box in av to one round per box.
Ok the point of these changes is to keep the deci as a antimax weapon, however reduce it so one deci soldier doesnt automaticly own a MAX. The other point of these changes is to make being an AV trooper be a great longistics concern to go with the kick up in power i'm about to give them.

4. Bump all AV damage, make it deal a perecentage of health to each difrent type of vehicle. For example. MBT 20% Air Cav: 45% Buggy: 30% Ground Support 25% (AMS should get additional protection if deployed) ATV 60% Air support 20% (possibly more for the lib)
5. Remove 5 Min Timer on getting a new vehicle.
6. Give all vehicles some sort of protective field they may turn on for brief (few seconds) to defend against incoming missiles, the exact mechanics of this whould have to be worked out. Note that lancer shots should only be partialy deflected by the field because they are pure energy as exposed to kinetic energy, and to make up for their lack of guidance.

Ok this part is more or less self explanatory, the 5 minuete timer has really only ever been a hindrance to those who got their vehicle eaten by lag or by the tech plant air terminal or by someone mining in front of the vehicle term or what not. I see no particular compelling argument for keeping it.

Questions? Comments? Flames from the special assault set?

Uhm, 5 guys on TS could own all and any vehicle whit some co ordinated fire. Cause if they fire at somewhat the same time and when you factor inn the good ol server lag, you're fucked. And once you get AV buffed to those levels even more would cert it, and well trying to assault an NC held base when 5 phoenix rockets would pop my prowler isn't something i'd like to do.

[Kikinchikin]

Do not touch the decimator.

It doesn't need to be nerfed. The projectile moves slow as molasses, and its RoF is less than pleasing. And although it is currently the best AV weapon around, it takes a lot of skill and practice to be able to pick off a max thats beyond 50 m.

Other than that, the ideas seem fine enough. I'm all for the Lancer being good again, as well as the striker. Phoenix needs only a buff against vehicles. Not maxes or infantry or more rockets per clip. It's a beast right now if the user is skilled.

[Jagd]

People seem to forget that for most of the vehicles to be effective in battle you have to get 2 or more people organized, loaded up and then travel to the front, which is why they have made it so that it takes multiple AV rounds to destroy vehicles. Why should one punk who just spawned at an AMS right in the thick of things be able to ruin the party for 3 guys who just spent 5+ minutes getting organized and travelling to the battle? The balance to this scenario is "weak" AV that requires organization (or at least co-operation) to be effective.

Now the reason the decimator packs such a whallop, is because while it is fairly easy to take out MAXes at short range, it takes a fair bit of skill to peg a moving vehicle out in the open. Sure you can squash stationary targets with ease, but anyone who stops moving their tank/reaver/whatever during a firefight deserves to pay for it with a couple rockets to the chin and significant damage to their ride.

[NoSurrender]

yea that ability to destroy vehicles would be isane and everybody would have AV and this would be "Ifantryside with easily destroyable vehicles". i dont want that. id rather have vehicleside

[Doppler]

Making the decimator 1 shot per tube would be insane. They already consume more inventory space than other infantry weapons, and having to go through 2 or 3 tubes (that's at least half of agile's storage space) to take down a MAX would be ridiculous. Buff AV or make the cert cheaper, but please leave SA alone!


They do not consume more inventory space then other infantry weapons, AV holds that crown for biggest space hog hands down. You cannot even think of going AV in a agile, why do all the little surgiles get to be super max killers as well. One tube keeps them with some ability if they want to go that route, but if people want to be well rounded soldiers they should have to sacrifice things, that's why I like this change. You kill still pack a couple decimators into an agiles armor, plus a few boxes of ammo, your a well rounded killing machine right there.

Secondly to those who say that a teamspeak squad will own a tank, well yes, a full squad of guys with RL antitank weaponry will seriously fuck up an abrams. The problem is when try to get those guys into position the barams is going to be blasting the crap out of them.

Additionaly the ammo space requirements will guarantee many many people are unwilling to take this cert, its got to be a dedicated few to fill a dedicated roll.

So what will this guarantee.

Planes will be forced to do swooping attacks instead of hovering as mobile gunnery platforms and then flying off when they need a reload. Tanks will be forced to keep moving, same deal, they'lll still be powerfull in attacking supply lines, and dominating in the open field but they cant just sit in a CY and shell the front door anymore. I mean lets face it guys, tanks and vehicles are not hard to come by in this game, why the hell are they so hard to bring down.

[Cyanide]

I don't think AV needs any help. If you make it more powerful you'll virtually eliminate vehilces from the game. It's harder to acquire a vehilce than it is to aquire an AV weapon. I think the average number of vehicles I see in a battle is about right for the number of infantry I see. There shouldn't be an over abundance of infantry (which would happen if 1 or 2 AV grunts could take out a tank easily) nor should there be an over abundance of vehilces (which would happen if the timer was removed). If there was no timer we would idiots spawning all sorts of vehicles continuously, clogging up the CY and generally annoying everybody.

[Onizuka-GTO]

I like this idea, except for the "one box, one round" idea. I mean isnt the whole poinjt of AV weaponary, is the ability to fire more then one round? It's not a disposable weapon, not like the decimator which i find quite rediculous to be able to hold three rounds, instead of a conventional anti-vehicular one round, per tube.

But also i find it disturbing if Agile/surge troops running about with a one shot kill AV weap, okay maybe not one kill but its close with the buffed up damage your suggesting.
Maybe have it that only Rexo can carry AV weaps? Or maybe make it that you have to "deploy" the AV weapon to fire it.
and the Lancer should be fitted with more ammo, currently its only good against maxes. It should be like those anti-tank machine guns, it takes alot longer to kill a tank with one, but it gets the job done and you will still have enough ammo to kill another vehicle.

[Doppler]

I don't think AV needs any help. If you make it more powerful you'll virtually eliminate vehilces from the game. It's harder to acquire a vehilce than it is to aquire an AV weapon. I think the average number of vehicles I see in a battle is about right for the number of infantry I see. There shouldn't be an over abundance of infantry (which would happen if 1 or 2 AV grunts could take out a tank easily) nor should there be an over abundance of vehilces (which would happen if the timer was removed). If there was no timer we would idiots spawning all sorts of vehicles continuously, clogging up the CY and generally annoying everybody.

Cyanide, the problem with the doomsday scenarios you suggest is they just dont happen. For one thing have you ever looked at the CY of a base under hacked, its not unusual for in a zerg campain to see 40+ vehicles deployed. Secondly even with this change i whouldnt call shooting a vehicle that cna 1 hit kill you, reloading and firing 2-3 more time "easy". Additionaly, a quick check of thotbot suggests that between 62-68 percent of the players in this game have some sort of vehicle cert, with Air CaV and Tanks dominating the list, that suggests that at any given time there will be more vehicle users then foot soldiers. Add to the fact that a surgile with special assault is an ultra well rounded killing machine there is no real reason not to take vehicles, so I dont see them dissapearing off planetside any time soon.

The reason we give AV such huge ammo limitations is I want them to get into the mindset of being "dedicated" av troopers, its not all they have to do, granted, but a platoon moving on open ground towards a base should live and die by its AV troopers should a tank roll around the bend, not by its SA soldiers as the case is now.

[Gigabein]

deci dmg vs. maxes should be reduced. Require 3 direct hits to kill.

[Seer]

People seem to forget that for most of the vehicles to be effective in battle you have to get 2 or more people organized, loaded up and then travel to the front, which is why they have made it so that it takes multiple AV rounds to destroy vehicles. Why should one punk who just spawned at an AMS right in the thick of things be able to ruin the party for 3 guys who just spent 5+ minutes getting organized and travelling to the battle? The balance to this scenario is "weak" AV that requires organization (or at least co-operation) to be effective.


Jagd is exactly right. People saying AV is weak or needs to be changed have hardly any sense of perspective--a single AV user, right now, is a threat to a vehicle if left alone. In any given battle there are multiple av users--you are not the only one. That means there is a point that vehicle threat, as a function of time, firepower, and organization, must outweigh the AV threat in order for vehicles to be useful. When AV weapons were powerful, this critical point was unrealistically high for the vehicles.

[BadAsh]

deci dmg vs. maxes should be reduced. Require 3 direct hits to kill.

I disagree with this notion. The Deci is the only effective means infantry have of killing a MAX Unit.

Infantry without a Deci = Dead Infantry
Infantry with a Deci = Dead MAX

To counter the Deci the MAX is required to have infantry support of his own. Now he just cant walk in and score many cheap kills... he actually has to have teamwork. With infantry support then enemy infantry have a problem determining what weapon to have in hand... getting caught switching weapons usually spells death so mixing MAX units and infantry is a deadly combo.

Hence I say leave it as is and force combinations of troops and max units to be effective. Allowing a MAX to "Rambo" would be lame.

As for the rest of AV, I dunno... it kinda works as is, perhaps a damage boost for the Lancer and Striker is in order, but the Phoenix should be left alone... currently it's my favorite weapon in the game, it owns as is.

[Doppler]

When was AV ever powerfull? Yes the striker was a pain in the butt, but other then that AV hasnt been made less powerfull, vehicles have been given a shitload more armor. Why is it so unreasonable that a squad of AV troopers, should be able to kill a easily aquirablee tank, which can one hit kill them, which can outrun then, which has much much greater survivability. Yet you guys pretend like its vehicles who've ever gotten the bum deal, this has never been the case.

[Gigabein]

I disagree with this notion. The Deci is the only effective means infantry have of killing a MAX Unit.

Infantry without a Deci = Dead Infantry
Infantry with a Deci = Dead MAX

To counter the Deci the MAX is required to have infantry support of his own. Now he just cant walk in and score many cheap kills... he actually has to have teamwork. With infantry support then enemy infantry have a problem determining what weapon to have in hand... getting caught switching weapons usually spells death so mixing MAX units and infantry is a deadly combo.

Hence I say leave it as is and force combinations of troops and max units to be effective. Allowing a MAX to "Rambo" would be lame.

As for the rest of AV, I dunno... it kinda works as is, perhaps a damage boost for the Lancer and Striker is in order, but the Phoenix should be left alone... currently it's my favorite weapon in the game, it owns as is.

By infantry support you mean an advanced medic and engineers to recharge the max when he gets smeared by the deci's that so many infantry carry? I don't think 3 direct hits is asking for too large of a dmg reduction - it just means you have to aim better in the hallways.

[Doppler]

Yes personnaly I have to agree that max's are perhaps a little too easy fodder for surging agile Deci users, yet another reason why i want it to go to a 1 per tube option, you want the power you gotta tkae the drawbacks.

[BadAsh]

By infantry support you mean an advanced medic and engineers to recharge the max when he gets smeared by the deci's that so many infantry carry? I don't think 3 direct hits is asking for too large of a dmg reduction - it just means you have to aim better in the hallways.

No, by infantry I mean troops fighting along side the MAX.

MAX units are lame and too powerful IMHO. They need a counter other then just another MAX unit.

Just a few AA MAX units can clear the skys over a base and just a few AI MAX units can butcher enemy infantry at will... each kills a full Rexo in less than 1 second. The ONLY way infantry can fight back is with the Deci and its only good if they have a place to use as cover inbetween shots. If not you will get one shot off and die.

For the cert costs MAX units are well worth it especially if you are VS with the super MAX units they have...

[BadAsh]

Yes personnaly I have to agree that max's are perhaps a little too easy fodder for surging agile Deci users, yet another reason why i want it to go to a 1 per tube option, you want the power you gotta tkae the drawbacks.

I disagree the TTK for an AI MAX is faster than the TTK for a Decimator vs. MAX. If you nerf the ONLY effective weapon the infantry have vs MAX units you will see lots of MAX units and lots of dead infantry.

Personally, I'd like to see this game without HA and without MAX units for just a few days. I bet it's a LOT more fun.

[Gigabein]

No, by infantry I mean troops fighting along side the MAX.

MAX units are lame and too powerful IMHO. They need a counter other then just another MAX unit.

Just a few AA MAX units can clear the skys over a base and just a few AI MAX units can butcher enemy infantry at will... each kills a full Rexo in less than 1 second. The ONLY way infantry can fight back is with the Deci and its only good if they have a place to use as cover inbetween shots. If not you will get one shot off and die.

For the cert costs MAX units are well worth it especially if you are VS with the super MAX units they have...

A deci nerf isn't going to affect AA maxes so that point is irrelevant. As for AI/AV MAXes, have you played on both sides of the line to get a real grasp of the situation? When I had SA certed, finding a MAX indoors was like Christmas day... a nice big exp gift. It is pretty unfair to get so totally dominated in an environment where you're supposed to have an advantage (AI maxes at least). I think a dmg reduction to the deci vs. MAXes is reasonable and warranted.

[Biohazzard56]

Phoenix=Sucks
Stryker=Ok
Lancer= a f'ing joke

Please do not touch the decimator

[Gigabein]

Buff AV, and tone down deci's vs MAXes.

[BadAsh]

Buff AV, and tone down deci's vs MAXes.

Buff the Striker and Lancer and leave the phoenix and deci alone.

The Phoenix is the best of the lot. When attacking an enemy base you can shoot over the walls and hit anything at will. By just targeting max units, vehicles, and the vehicle terminal a small group of phoenix users can shut down the entire CY defense. It's also great for harrassing and killing snipers. They have a choice to run or die once you target them.

It kills a max in 3 shots so indoors you nearly have a decinator on your hands. But, the phoenix in dumb fire mode travels faster and straighter than a decimator so IMHO it's still better for that use.

[KIAsan]

Buff AV missles to deci damage with the same rate of fire (do something equivalent for the VS). Keep the empire specific AV though (fly-by-wire, radar lock, energy beam) and keep the empire specific ammo ammounts. Would still be hard to kill any vehicle, but would make the vehicle drivers more reluctant to go charging in on a group of infantry. Also, you would see fewer mossies hovering a 15 feet above the heads of troops as they shoot them up.

[Rbstr]

I don't agree with this, i would keep everything as except bump up that AV damage to vechs alot, and mak the deci AV as it should be

[Doppler]

This whould be acceptable to me as well i'm sick of SA being the ala carte cert and AV getting the shaft. Oh and for all you little dips who are going to say "Well then cert SA" it bothered me when i was a SA trooper as well.