No Significant Changes to JH

[KIAsan]

I posted this under the old JH thread, but figured it deserved a thread of it's own. Probably old news, but I haven't seen it posted before.

Straight from SmokejumperPS:

"There is no consideration at this time to change or alter the Jackhammer significantly. Certainly no plans to replace it. The Jackhammer is still the most powerful weapon in the game, the only weapon that can one-shot soldiers (outside of vehicle weaponry) and still absolutely fearsome indoors."

Link: http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/001209.html

Comments.......?

[VashTheStamped]

Comments.......?
none.

[Morrik]

I haven't had any problems with the Jackhammer in the game. Sure, there are a lot of players that are using it, but with my MAX certification all the players try to run past me and shoot others without armor. The players with the Jackhammer go down really fast when facing me.

In regards to the players who don't have MAX, it's really easy to dodge something that has random fire from the bullets. Just make sure to move around a lot and use the crouch button to throw them off. The players will try to get close to you and the other two empire Heavy Weapons have a great cone of fire from distance. That is the disadvantage to the Jackhammer. When players on NC get lucky enough to find somebody close by to lay into, then it's the other player's fault being shot at for being so close.

Every gun or weapon in the game has balance from distance to usefulness. To cry "nerf" everytime something can kill you easily is just preposterous and not very well thought out tactics are being used. The game is litterally flawless in my eye. It can only get better and more enjoyable from here on out.

Keep in mind that I have only been playing for a few weeks though. That's just my thought on the situation though.

[a pink punk]

um, dude. i think you got the wrong dea from that thread. read the title. then read the post. they are going to fix the reloading bug. they are not going to make a new, as the thread title says. in other words, the thread starter wanted to know what poeple thought would be a good replacement for the JH if they ever deciced to make a NEW HA wep for the NC. also, the thread starter thinks that the JH is now usless. its not.

[a pink punk]

you know what, maybe i got the wrong idea when i read your post ...

:)

[SpunkJackel]

I dunno Morik, maybe you havent seen enough Jack users. I'm fairly sure that 2 alt fire shots with Armor piercing ammo from the jack kill a max. Thats two clicks of the mouse, I mean I picked up SA just to do that with the deci, if my HA could do that i would be on cloud nine.

[Queensidecastle]

Yeah, but the only problem with that is infantry weapons that oneshot people have no business whatsoever in Planetside. If the sniper rifle cant do it, other weapons sure as hell shouldnt be doing it. One of these days they will get the message.

[Morrik]

I dunno Morik, maybe you havent seen enough Jack users. I'm fairly sure that 2 alt fire shots with Armor piercing ammo from the jack kill a max. Thats two clicks of the mouse, I mean I picked up SA just to do that with the deci, if my HA could do that i would be on cloud nine.

I have seen enough of the Jackhammer to know the weapon is annoying. Yes, I do agree it is annoying. Also, the Jackhammer does require a reload switch with Armor Piercing bullets and most people will have it on the regular bullets for obvious reasons. By the time they're done reloading, they're already face down on the ground.

I just try to take a more "role-playing" aspect in the game rather than trying to find errors in the game. Why worry about something when you can't physically change it? Find a workaround!

I must be the only optimistic paying customer. :)

[KIAsan]

Quick clarification on my post. There has been some comment about the JH getting the nerf (including from me). So, I hearby take back what I have said, it's not getting nerfed. I also thought the wording was interesting. Considering there have been alot of posts complaining about how the JH is too powerful indoors. Apparently, it was designed that way, so there is no basis to complain.

[Morrik]

Quick clarification on my post. There has been some comment about the JH getting the nerf (including from me). So, I hearby take back what I have said, it's not getting nerfed. I also thought the wording was interesting. Considering there have been alot of posts complaining about how the JH is too powerful indoors. Apparently, it was designed that way, so there is no basis to complain.

Taking that into aspect, the gun is useless outdoors unless close to the enemy. There are disadvantages and advantages to everything in the game. I'm still optimistic though. :)

[Hamma]

Changing the triple shot reload time is not a signifigant change/

[Angel_of_Death]

Taking that into aspect, the gun is useless outdoors unless close to the enemy. There are disadvantages and advantages to everything in the game. I'm still optimistic though. :)

Useless outdoors....

Luckily every NC with a JH doesn't have surge or else the JH would own indoors and outdoors. But thankfully all NC don't have surge. Or else we'd be screwed.

Thankfully. Or else it would own.

(sarcasm)

[GreyFlcn]

SmokeJumperPS:
The tri-barrel reload time has effectively been a bug all this time. The original design calls for the tri-barrel to reload one barrel, then rotate, then reload another, then rotate, then reload the last. Fixing this brings it back to the balance intended...and it's overdue.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/001161-3.html

Yeh, that sums it up pretty well.

[Morrik]

Useless outdoors....

Luckily every NC with a JH doesn't have surge or else the JH would own indoors and outdoors. But thankfully all NC don't have surge. Or else we'd be screwed.

Thankfully. Or else it would own.

(sarcasm)

If there was an agreement bell next to me right now, it would be ringing off the charts.

[Majik]

Luckily every NC with a JH doesn't have surge......

Just every NC over BR6 :P

[Incompetent]

Find a workaround!The only workaround i've found so far is beating the living shit out of my keyboard and mouse then tearing the power cord out of the wall socket, cursing constantly.

The jackhammer, along with the vanguard, reaver, HART and HA in general, are total bullshit, and the game would be greatly improved if they were nerfed out of existence.

[Veteran]

Incompetent,

Haven't you been warned about your constant logic and reasonable attitude?

Seriously, it's like you're trying to help the game by pointing out these glaring disparities.

/sarcasm. Keep on fighting the good fight.

[infinite loop]

I dunno Morik, maybe you havent seen enough Jack users. I'm fairly sure that 2 alt fire shots with Armor piercing ammo from the jack kill a max. Thats two clicks of the mouse, I mean I picked up SA just to do that with the deci, if my HA could do that i would be on cloud nine.

No, it actually takes a little more than a full clip of AP rounds to kill a MAX with the JH. I've heard rumors that the triple-shot damage against MAXes is even bugged, and doesn't register, but I've never tried it out. Anyway, using secondary mode on a MAX is just a bad idea in general.

[infinite loop]

The only workaround i've found so far is beating the living shit out of my keyboard and mouse then tearing the power cord out of the wall socket, cursing constantly.

The jackhammer, along with the vanguard, reaver, HART and HA in general, are total bullshit, and the game would be greatly improved if they were nerfed out of existence.

I honestly don't understand you guys who want to get rid of HA. All those things you listed are incredibly fun to use (minus the hart), and a video game is supposed to be fun for alot of different players, right? So where's the logic in removing fun?

[Incompetent]

Having a cycler that shoots 150mm shots and 10000 hit points would be fun for me, who thinks i should get it?

[infinite loop]

Having a cycler that shoots 150mm shots and 10000 hit points would be fun for me, who thinks i should get it?

If your argument is going to consist of throwing around rediculously overblown examples, then I'm done here.

[Incompetent]

My arguement is whats fun or convenient for one person makes the game suck for everyone else.

[Veteran]

I think he means that a cert cannot be balanced by its point cost. Consider the BFG, a mythical weapon that costs 23 certs to use. It fires 10,000 shots per second and each one deals 100,000 damage. Is 23 certs enough to balance this? No. Cert cost is not factorial when considering a cert's power, and thus Heavy Assault cannot be justified by its four cert cost even though it's the BFG of the game.

PlanetSide would be just as fun without Heavy Assault. While Surge persists, and especially now that Reinforced Exosuit is about to get a _massive_ buff, Heavy Assault will be the premier tool for ownage.

As for Vanguard, 6,000 armor and the biggest damage, splash radius and potential to be used in similar fashion to the Flail make the argument that it is indeed the premier ownage machine. As for Reaver, same deal. It's an airplane that can kill any other unit with its missiles. Should one man have the option to kill any unit? Hard call. Look at how often they stress that AV is meant to be 'used in groups'.

Perhaps SOE needs to ask Blizzard how they balanced their three factions. I'd be genuinely amused to hear people relate stories of the balance between Terrans, Protoss and Zerg as opposed to the Terrans, Vanu and New Cong.

BTW, I am drinking vodka again, compliments of TR high command, so don't bust my chops.

[infinite loop]

But there's a point where one weapon in a game is rediculously imbalanced, and pretty much makes the game suck for everyone. Not 100% of the people in a game like this will ever like all the weapons, but I bet you most people don't think HA is rediculously imbalanced. There are plenty of counters for HA, that are extremely effective, including using your HA.

If your desire is to have a more realistic shooter, then a whole lotta shit besides HA needs to be removed, and then it would be a completely different game. But this game isn't realistic, and has alot of powerful, but fun, weapons. If your flavor of game is more along the lines of Rainbow Six or CS, then PS probably won't ever be what you want.

[infinite loop]

Vet I truly understand your argument, but I couldn't disagree more. I think HA is perfectly priced for it's value vs other weapons. MA only costs 2 certs, and can be extremely lethal. For double the points, I expect to have a more powerful weapon. I don't see the huge disparity there, like you guys seem to. HA is not a BFG.

And like I said earlier, just removing HA would not make the game more fun, unless you remove MAXes, special assault, reavers, tanks, heavy buggies...oh wait, what's left? No thanks.

[Veteran]

You raise a valid argument, infinite loop.

It's impossible for a game to be all things to all people.

Thus, the headaches.

[KIAsan]

Sticking to the intent of the thread, there is no basis to complain about the JH, since the devs DESIGNED it to own everyone indoors.

However, since someone brought up balance, if you have two players, on an NC jackhammer, the other a opposing empire HA (doesn't matter which). Both are fighting each other in a tower with equal skill, the JH will win (since that is how it is designed). That is fun for the NC player, but how is it fair (fun) for the other guy? Well, there is a counter you say. I'm curious as to what that would be? You can give me the "range" argument all you want, but the fights that count (for base/tower caps) occur indoors.

Ahh, but other weapons/certs balance the J/H, since HA was not intended to balance each other. Ok, lets bring this example to a combined arms look (using TR since that is what I am most familiar with). I will use the assumption that all players are of equal skill and br.

NC own a tower. They have 1 scat max, 1 vanguard and 10 JHs guarding.

TR attack with 1 pounder, 1 prowler and 10 MCGs (at this point TR is already at a disadvantage as they must field one extra person than NC). The van owns the prowler, since it is designed as the most powerfull tank. The max charges thru the door, backed by MCGs. The scat max takes out the pounder, the JHs take out the MCGs. Since all things being equal, the pounder can't lock down to use it's special ability, while the scat can use its shield to protect against the pounder, then while it is reloading, kill it. Oh, but the TR can use deci's to kill the scat? Yeah, and the NC can use deci's to kill the pounder. So, based on this scenario, where is the balance? If you throw in AV, then the pounder dies before it reaches the tower.

I am not posting this to whine about TR. But, I would like a common sense explanation on how this is balanced. What empire specific weapon can TR deploy in this case to counter the JH?

[Queensidecastle]

Sticking to the intent of the thread, there is no basis to complain about the JH, since the devs DESIGNED it to own everyone indoors.
No, I think the devs wanted it to be "better" and have an "edge" indoors. That isnt at all how it played out. I have said it before but most of what is pissing people off about the JH isnt that it is "better" indoors, its that one-shot kills you. Additionally the Jackhammer can oneshot a trooper in a doorway and kill the hidden infiltrator directly behind them all at the same time. No other weapon can do that (Lasher "lashes" give plenty of time to escape). Finally, given that the JH is the only Heavy assault with a Secondary fire mode and the picture looks very different indeed

Where is the Alt fire mode for the MCG that makes it fire 2x faster?
Where is the Alt fire mode for the Lasher that makes its orbs bigger or more powerfull?

The point is, that there isnt any and people are getting tired of that and the one shot lag warp kills. Like I said before, if the Sniper rifle cant one shot kill, nothing should be able to

[infinite loop]

KIAsan - In your example, it does not matter that the NC are the ones holding the tower. If everyone has the same skill, and you match numbers of attackers vs. defenders in a tower, the defenders still have the advantage. The fact that the JH is awesome in a tower has no bearing in that situation. If it were reversed, with the TR holding the tower, then they would have the advantage.

But let's take a step back and look at the argument you are trying to make. You are saying that you feel one empire is more powerful than another inside of a tower. Even if that were the case, it doesn't mean that things are imbalanced. The problem with most balance arguments is that they are looking to balance every weapon class, or certain situations, or each vehicle. But balance is ONLY important across the board. The only question the devs have to answer is, are all 3 empires balanced? The HA weapons do not have to be equal, just like the MAXes don't, and the tanks don't. Each have strengths and weaknesses, and when you find yourself on the losing end of an empire weakness, then it's easy to complain about balance. That's why the game will never be balanced in alot of people's minds, and it's a very tough thing for the devs to do. But I think they've done a great job, and are continuing to make tweaks to maintain across the board balance.

[Veteran]

Towers are utterly imbalanced combat zones. Get rid of them. Get rid of them NOW.

[Jagd]

Jesus Christ Vet, no more vodka in your morning OJ please.

[Madcow]

But balance is ONLY important across the board. The only question the devs have to answer is, are all 3 empires balanced? The HA weapons do not have to be equal, just like the MAXes don't, and the tanks don't. Each have strengths and weaknesses, and when you find yourself on the losing end of an empire weakness, then it's easy to complain about balance. That's why the game will never be balanced in alot of people's minds, and it's a very tough thing for the devs to do. But I think they've done a great job, and are continuing to make tweaks to maintain across the board balance.

There's a huge flaw in your logic. The TR had the best AI max and the best AV weapons in the game. At that time, the MCG sucked horribly and the 'argument' given for the MCG sucking was that it wasn't one of the TR strong points. The TR had their MAX, and they had their AV, quit complaining about HA, quit complaining about your crap tank. At the time I was playing mostly TR and I could understand that. Play to your empire's strengths, stay away from their weaknesses. My grunt ran around with a Cycler and Striker the majority of the time. Then the other 2 empires continually bitched about the Pounder until it got not one but 2 massive nerfs. Then they continued bitching until the Striker was a shadow of it's former self (to be completely honest, it was overpowered against MAXs and air). Then the MCG was buffed to be okay. I personally still prefer the Cycler to it, but to each his own. The strengths/weaknesses argument lost all merit when the main strengths of the TR were repeatedly sodomized due to other empire's bitching.

[infinite loop]

The flaw is not in my logic. That rests with the devs decisions to be influenced by the whiners. My argument stands.

[infinite loop]

Anyone interested in seeing how much the nerf/buff threads actually influence the devs, check out this thread that SmokeJumper replied in:

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/001286.html

[Incompetent]

All HA should be balanced against the lasher at launch, or axed completely, and loop, unless you want to give me my Pounder and striker back find a new arguement, you've already admited you don't care about balance as long as your having fun.

[infinite loop]

All HA should be balanced against the lasher at launch, or axed completely, and loop, unless you want to give me my Pounder and striker back find a new arguement, you've already admited you don't care about balance as long as your having fun.

Where did I ever say that you shouldn't get your Pounder or striker back? All I said was that balance has to be considered from an overall standpoint, not on a weapon-class basis. I never specified if I thought anything should be buffed or nerfed.

And I never said I didn't care about balance. I care alot, I want the game to be fun for as many people as possible, and be balanced, so that the devs can focus on new stuff and not tweaking balance.

[Incompetent]

Meh, i'm just disgruntled and overreacting to one of your posts, just ignore me for now. Half the reason HA is so dominate is because of the bases/towers architechture, i'll probably post a rant on that later.

[Madcow]

Meh, i'm just disgruntled and overreacting to one of your posts, just ignore me for now. Half the reason HA is so dominate is because of the bases/towers architechture, i'll probably post a rant on that later.

TR have every right to be disgruntled, in my mind. TR is the only empire that is currently worse off than they were at launch. For every minor buff they've received, the other empires have gotten just as much or more. For every nerf they've gotten...well, the nerfs have not been spread out evenly. Whenever a TR brings up their weaknesses they get responses of "You have the best MA and pistol!" as if those are balance-swinging issues (and the pistol is highly debateable).

TR

Pistol-Same
MA-Same
HA-Buffed
AV-Nerfed
AI MAX-Nerfed
AV MAX-Nerfed
AA MAX-Same
Tank-Buffed

NC

Pistol-Same
MA-Same (?)
HA-Nerfed (range nerf if I recall correctly)
AV-Slight buff
AI MAX-Buffed
AV MAX-Same
AA MAX-Hard to say, many changes. Say equal.
Tank-Biggest buff

VS

Pistol-Buffed
MA-Buffed
HA-Buffed
AV-Nerfed
AI MAX-Buffed
AV MAX-Buffed
AA MAX-Buffed
Tank-Supposedly buffed

Wow, I forget how bad the VS were...

The TR nerfs were major nerfs. The NC has actually stayed pretty consistent (which might explain some of their appeal) while the VS has improved the most by far. It seems pretty easy to understand why the TR would feel a little bit shafted.

[sPooT]

The problem with most balance arguments is that they are looking to balance every weapon class, or certain situations, or each vehicle. But balance is ONLY important across the board. The only question the devs have to answer is, are all 3 empires balanced? The HA weapons do not have to be equal, just like the MAXes don't, and the tanks don't. Each have strengths and weaknesses, and when you find yourself on the losing end of an empire weakness, then it's easy to complain about balance. That's why the game will never be balanced in alot of people's minds, and it's a very tough thing for the devs to do. But I think they've done a great job, and are continuing to make tweaks to maintain across the board balance.

I really liked how you defended the jackhammer for us NC. It's just too bad you made this point ;) I always lose attention as soon as people throw this stuff in the mix, like "yeah we have the jackhammer, but you have the magrider!". Little bit of advice: don't use that argument, only thing it will do is admit you're outta arguments..

To get back on topic (jackhammer balance) I think it's important to remember the way certs are balanced in Planetside is not pure firepower, it's just the usefullness of it. That's why you spend as much points on a 1 person killingmachine(reaver) as on a single HA weapon. It's because that reaver won't get you all the way to your goal (the cc) like the HA does. That's also why I think the jackhammer is a piece of crap for 4 points. Yeah sure it's pretty powerful up close, but as soon as the enemy is like a few steps away you'll get owned by proper aiming MA wielding people. I refuse to spend 4 points on a slightly better sweeper :D Most of the arguments people give against the jackhammer are based on other (broken) game mechanics. The first is surge of course, I hope to god to they make it impossible to draw weapons with surge on. Second is the triple-shot-barrel argument, due to a bug (which spork now admitted) there was something wrong with the reloading time of it, that will be fixed soon. I do admit jackhammers are the single best weapon for tower battles, but then again I think towers are too frikking important(and easy to take) anyway.

The chaingun will kill only slightly slower at point blank, while still being quite powerful at short-medium range. The lasher has the disadvantage of not being direct-fire but it can supress(sp?) an area like no other hand-held weapon besides perhaps a thumper. As a terran I would say the same, sure the chaingun is powerful, but it isn't that much more useful than a cycler. Lasher is the best heavy weapon IMO, and even then I'd doubt if it's worth the 4 points. There are just so many other things you can do with em.