What Is the Best Misconception mankind has made?

[Revolution]

.......

[BLuE_ZeRO]

the fact that I'm not anywhere on that poll as an option is outrageous! I AM THE ANTI CHRIST DAMNIT! :mad:

[Revolution]

SHIT I AM SO SORRY!!!!!!! Well there is the OTHER poll button!!!!!

[Nohimn]

I think the greatest misconception (and nobody flame me for this pleaz) is that there is no logic behind god. I am an atheist, and I don't beleive in god. We are all taught in schools about proofs (especially in math and in science). We are done being 8 and accepting that (pi)r^2 is the area of a circle, we need proof to truely understand what (pi)r^2 means (though I find that a lot of people still don't know how to prove that). If you read the article about earth being flat, then you know that people are rejecting logic for faith (more like replacing logic with faith) and declaring science incorrect.

I cannot say that anyone is the anitchrist, because by my arguement, Christ does not exist (and don't say that Jesus did exist, because he did, but he wasn't christ according to my arguement). You can say I am the antichrist, but what can I be against if it is not there.

The world is NOT flat because a human document said so. If holy document A said holy document B was wrong, and holy document B said holy document A was right, the flat-earthers would have a lot of trouble figuring out what the hell to beleive in. If they circle the globe, we will be hearing about how scientists are using "jedi mind tricks" to make the think that they rotated the earth.

"But the Bible says so" is not proper logic and people have trouble understanding that. I still don't accept molecular theory until it's proven (however, my classmates do, and when I ask my science teacher to prove it, he says "I'm a science teacher, not a scientist." I almost got kicked out of class for asking too many good questions.

So I conclude that this is the greatest misconception of mankind because there is no logic behind it, only blind faith.

[Squeeky]

eMa is a goddess, not the anti-christ

:love: :love: :love: :love: :love:

[Revolution]

Nohimn I hope you dont get flamed for your opinion. But its kinda hard on this board I have noticed :rolleyes: (some game boards have a strict No Flame Rule or Boot/Banned) I like that policy.(Think I might of just taken your flames away from you, lets see)

[Revolution]

P.S. Squeeky have you read eMa's Sig? Oh man thats a Goddess if I ever heard one! WOOT!!!!!

[mistled]

Ok, Nohimn, I'll bite. If we can keep everyone else out of this, we can probably keep this thread from being locked. :) You all think Hamma hates political threads, let's see how religion fares. I'll try
to just go down your post and not get off topic.
Originally posted by Nohimn
I think the greatest misconception (and nobody flame me for this pleaz) is that there is no logic behind god. I am an atheist, and I don't beleive in god. We are all taught in schools about proofs (especially in math and in science). We are done being 8 and accepting that (pi)r^2 is the area of a circle, we need proof to truely understand what (pi)r^2 means (though I find that a lot of people still don't know how to prove that). If you read the article about earth being flat, then you know that people are rejecting logic for faith (more like replacing logic with faith) and declaring science incorrect.
I agree that it is a misconception that there is no logic behind God. (Whether or not that's what you meant to say, I am uncertain, but it is what you said.) Many people do in fact try to replace logic with faith. They also try to replace science with strict faith (which is not the same thing as logic, but I don't want to get into that). It's here that they mess up. There is no proven science that disproves the existence of God. None. Take it from someone who ran from what the world considers "Christianity" in a search of the truth. Feel free to bring up any science you think proves that God does not exist and I'll refute it. One at a time please, I don�t want to have to reply using four pages at a time. All science does in fact is bring a person to agnosticism, which is the belief that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists. Read a Brief History of Time by Hawking and this will become clearer. If you want me to go into why this must be, say so, but I won't waste the space on what is already long post.

I cannot say that anyone is the anitchrist, because by my arguement, Christ does not exist (and don't say that Jesus did exist, because he did, but he wasn't christ according to my arguement). You can say I am the antichrist, but what can I be against if it is not there. I'm assuming this statement is made in relation to the poll on this thread, so I'll leave it be.


The world is NOT flat because a human document said so. If holy document A said holy document B was wrong, and holy document B said holy document A was right, the flat-earthers would have a lot of trouble figuring out what the hell to beleive in. If they circle the globe, we will be hearing about how scientists are using "jedi mind tricks" to make the think that they rotated the earth.

"But the Bible says so" is not proper logic and people have trouble understanding that. I still don't accept molecular theory until it's proven (however, my classmates do, and when I ask my science teacher to prove it, he says "I'm a science teacher, not a scientist." I almost got kicked out of class for asking too many good questions.

So I conclude that this is the greatest misconception of mankind because there is no logic behind it, only blind faith.
I personally don't know of any religion's Holy Book that states that the Earth is flat, so, again, I'll assume that statement is for an example and will let it be.
"The Bible says so" is not proper logic, I agree; unless of course you believe it to be the Word of God, in which case it is. But you don't, so we won't even go there.
The entire point is that science doesn't disprove the existence of God. It just doesn't, and if you somehow believe that it does, then your views are biased to begin with. Science will only make you neutral, with the evidence leaning towards the existence of God, but with no repeatable proof, and therefore, nothing to stand on scientifically. There is no reason for faith to overtake science. They are working towards the same truth, and actually work hand in hand.

mistled

[Zanzibar]

i really cant be arsed to read that but i agree oh and also i hate the way you get shouted at for askigngood questions or asking questions that other kids dont understand so they laugh at you there4 lowering your self esteem stopping you asking intelligent questions and then you in turn are branded unintelligent for not asking any questions.
kids can be sooo cruel.
it was once said that kids and dictators are the most creul people. i agree totally.

[MrVicchio]

The proof that there is a God:

Do you love Anyone, just one person?

Prove it.

[Incompetent]

edit: damn phantom posts
edit: then again, i can't really talk can I

[Hijinks]

god is make believe.

that is all.

[Lexington_Steele]

Mr. Rogers had a land of make believe. Does that mean Mr Roger created God?

[Hijinks]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Mr. Rogers had a land of make believe. Does that mean Mr Roger created God?

You are very wise for a porn star lex.

[Toimu]

I believe God was/is a Scientist.

Even science cannot say what formed the small ball of "Stuff" that then made the Big Bang. In science/physics, eneregy is never created or destroyed, only changed into other types of energy. But how did this energy come about to start with?

Even for people that believe in God, how did God come to be? How did what ever made God come to be? etc...

Science and religion both come down to that same question. Science says "We don't know", religon says "God was always there". I don't understand the later.

Posted By: Nohimn

I still don't accept molecular theory until it's proven
Just because your teacher cannot give you the answer doesn't mean it's never been proven. Before saying prove it to me, stop and think of how else these effects could happen if a law is incorrect.

Info from:
http://physics.nist.gov/GenInt/STM/stm.html

The scanning tunneling microscope (STM) is widely used in both industrial and fundamental research to obtain atomic-scale images

Info from:
http://www.umsl.edu/~fraundor/stm97x.html

Gerd Binnig and Heinrich Rohrer of IBM's Zurich Research Center were awarded the 1986 Nobel Prize in Physics for discovering the STM.

Some reading on Particle Physics will help.

[mistled]

Toimu,
At the moment of the Big Bang, the universe was at infinite mass and infinite density at the same time. At that point, all of the laws of physics broke down and new ones were created.

Because of this, we have no idea what caused the Big Bang or what came before it. It also means that we can't know, since we don't even know what laws of physics were in place at the time.

Science says "We don't know". Religon says "We can't prove what we know". There's why.

[Toimu]

{BOHICA}mistled,
Yeah I've heard that theory, just was summing it up.

But I don't understand how can laws of physics ever be different. I think it was on such a small scale, far smaller than Quarks, that some people say it was just different laws of physics.

[mistled]

I honestly don't remember the reasoning behind why the laws of physics would break down at infinite density and mass. It's in Hawking's book brief history of time though. Sorry for being a complete lack of help there.

[Hijinks]

http://www.notbored.org/mass-9.jpg

[Nohimn]

I don't care if anyone else beleives in God. I am simply expressing my opinion, just as anyone else would express their opinion about God. People just dislike it when an atheist does it for some reason..... Mr. Rogers did not create God, because in his land of make beleive there was no mention of God. God is a crude way of explaining things.

It's kinda hard being an atheist because you don't want to offend people (I happen to go to a catholic school...), and when I mention that I am an atheist, people ask why. If you do explain, you offend them because you demonstrate the irrationality of God which invalidates all of their beleifs (then they struggle to keep a hold of it for a while). If you don't, they offend you by saying that you don't have a reason for being an atheist.

[Nohimn]

oh, and they bible saying that the world is flat... I'll find that link in a second... and I know science doesn't disprove the existence of God, but it is irrational to call it to existence without proof. And I know that there is an explaination for Molecular Theory (you idiot), I sit through class and remember it, just as I have to remember crap in religion class (see above). It's just that my teacher didn't give me the answers and didn't prove it to me, I was just given info. It was proven, but it wasn't proven to me. I'm not accepting it with the pieces not put together. thanks for the links btw.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Nohimn
I don't care if anyone else beleives in God. I am simply expressing my opinion, just as anyone else would express their opinion about God. People just dislike it when an atheist does it for some reason..... Mr. Rogers did not create God, because in his land of make beleive there was no mention of God. God is a crude way of explaining things.

It's kinda hard being an atheist because you don't want to offend people (I happen to go to a catholic school...), and when I mention that I am an atheist, people ask why. If you do explain, you offend them because you demonstrate the irrationality of God which invalidates all of their beleifs (then they struggle to keep a hold of it for a while). If you don't, they offend you by saying that you don't have a reason for being an atheist. You lost me here. You sound annoyed, or something. Who seems to dislike it that you express your opinon??

Oh, and don't worry in the least about offending me. You don't have a chance at invalidating any of my beliefs, much less all of them. I tried to invalidate them for years before I truly adopted them. It can't be done.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Nohimn
oh, and they bible saying that the world is flat... I'll find that link in a second... and I know science doesn't disprove the existence of God, but it is irrational to call it to existence without proof. And I know that there is an explaination for Molecular Theory (you idiot), I sit through class and remember it, just as I have to remember crap in religion class (see above). It's just that my teacher didn't give me the answers and didn't prove it to me, I was just given info. It was proven, but it wasn't proven to me. I'm not accepting it with the pieces not put together. thanks for the links btw. Please do show me a verse in the Bible that states the Earth is flat; I would love to see it.

I never said that there is no proof of God. I simply said that science does not disprove God, but neither can it prove God exists. The problem is this. Most humanity believes that they have free will, the right to choose right or wrong however they see fit. Now, imagine the following senario. A supreme being, who is perfect in it's perfection, and who created you and all that you know, appears before you. You would have no choice but to follow this being. Don't even say that you would, because if the beign was truly perfect, you wouldn't. It would be everything you know to be good.
If this senario ever happens, free will is gone. Humanity's choice of how to live would be taken away.

Science cannot prove that God exist because there is no experiment that can be conducted with a repeatable result. It's like saying you want to prove that humans exist by making them do something. We can't even get eachother to do the same thing every single time we want, and yet that is what an experiment would require of God. It would ask a supreme being with it's own will to do exactly what the experiment called for, every time. I don't see how we can expect that. I'm not even sure what experiment someone would even want to conduct.

[mistled]

Oh yes, and I love how you call someone an idiot after just saying in the previous post that you don't want to offend people.

[chaos1428]

Personally, I don't know what I beleive. If there is a god, then I think he gave up on us a long time ago. If there isn't a god, well, then that explains alot. People have the right to any opinion they want. George Carlin probably said it best in his discussion of religion.

"I really, really tried. I tried to beleive that there is a god, who created each of us in his own image, and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you. The longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize that somehting is f*cked up. Something is very wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime corruption, and the ice capades. Something is definately wrong. This is NOT good work.
If this is the best that god can do, I am not impressed. Resultslike these do not go on the resume' of a supreme being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp, with a bad attitude. And between you and me, in any DECENTLY run universe, guy would have been booted out on his all powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say this GUY, because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a god, it has to be a man. No woman could or would f*ck things up like this. So, if there is a god, IF there is, I would think most REASONABLE people would agree, that he is at least imcompitent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit."

From George Carlin's HBO special.

[mistled]

Chaos, don't get your theology from a comedian. :p
I've heard this argument many times before and people always seem to forget something. We've been allowed to do with the earth as we will. There is evil in the world and when good men do nothing, evil tends to spread. We haven't stopped bad things from happening, so they continue to happen. If we don't care enough to help ourselves, how do we blame God, who is simply allowing us to live the lives we have chosen?

[BLuE_ZeRO]

I believe anything Microsoft tells me. If Microsoft decided to tell everyone there was a God I would believe them. All hail Bill Gates :O_O:

[Revolution]

I just tried to post at poll, lol. But Rock On, opinions are your own! So shout em out! :rock: :rock: :rock:

[Warborn]

Nohimn,

If there is a God, you'd never be able to prove it. The entire basis of religion is about blind faith. You have to believe. If you knew for sure God existed, what would you do? You'd just be a good Chrtistian and count down the days until you die and go to eternal paradise. What kind of a life is that, and more importantly, how would you screen people? If even those who'd end up serial rapists and mass murderers were being good citizens, you eliminate any need for Heaven or Hell. Everyone but the stupid and/or misguided would be going to Heaven.

That said, there are things that you cannot explain via logic either. For instance, if matter cannot be created or destroyed, only broken down into its most basic components, where did it all come from? Indeed, where did "reality" come from? Where did the space which we, the stars, and the planets occupy originate from? And whatever answer you have, where did that come from? There has to be an origin to everything, but using logic, there is absolutely no way to explain how this all started. Furthermore, evolution is screwed up. Yeah, a lot of religious people make baseless claims about evolution, but I have an example of something that simply could not have evolved. And that thing is any insect that undergoes metamorphosis. Exactly how does an organism which liquifies itself half way during its life, only to reform into a completely new creature, evolve? It doesn't. There is absolutely no way such an organism could ever evolve. That'd be akin to a human being which, half way through its life, melts into a puddle of biological soup, and from that puddle of soup, reforms into a moose or a bear. It simply doesn't happen. You have the incredible complexity of two organisms needing to be fully functional and able to exist in their environment, coupled with an intensely complex process like metamorphosis. You would literally need to wait for an organism to evolve all over again if it somehow included liquification in its lifecycle, because a species which liquifies itself and doesn't form into anything (that works) is doomed. Every member of that species will likely die. And given the diverse array of species which are capable of metamorphosis... sorry, no way that could have occured naturally. No friggin' way.

[Revolution]

lol

I dont always agree with War but his online books(:D ) are worth reading. He backs his opinions up. Whether you agree or disagree:
:rock:

[Ludio]

I feel for you Nohimn, I had the luck of growing up around lots of other atheists and both of my parents are ex-catholics. In a recent poll in the states it was found that atheists were more feared/hated than communists. I know that most people dont care about communism any more, but still that is saying a lot about the general public. The funny thing about religious toleration I have found is that in people's hearts it is only for other religions. For example christians can accept it if you are muslim, jewish or hindi, but not believing in god at all is a tough concept for some people.

[Sputty]

Yep, that's why Canada rocks! Atheism rules. If it doesn't I'm sieging Ottawa with my trebuchets!

[chaos1428]

Well, I do beleive in god, just not as a typical christian would. I don't believe he has as much of an effect on us as alot of people think. I believe that most of everything in the bible is faked, or greatly exagerated. My opinion is that there has to be something, something beyond this life. Some reason why there is life. I do honestly believe that god doesn not give a shit. And from what you say, misled, I do also believe that we have to help ourselves. But I think we are too far gone as a species, to help ourselves. Something beyond our control, something we cannot do by ourselves, is the only thing that will save us. Something has to unite mankind, in order for us to stop killing eachother. It could be religious, it could be terrestrial, it could be extra-terrestrial, I don't know. But something needs to happen, and happen soon, before we wipe ourselves out.

[Sputty]

I believe we exist to do the same thing as everything else. Make sure our genes survive. Also, I think all of the bible is fake. Not most, all. Although you can think about religion the way you do, I disagree with it but meh...Why should it matter to me?

[Nohimn]

okay, here are the links for the world is flat crap:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm

[Tobias]

sience we are talking about religion here is my few:

Think of the bacteria in your nose, covering your snot and the such, when you sneeze you snuff out the life of millions of bacteria, but het, its just bacteria, whats a few million dead?



Now think of this, there is more then one universe, and in each of the possiably billions or more universes there are billions to trillions of star systems, many of them have planetary bodys orbiting them, and life can not only egsist on worlds like ours, so, it is likely that there is life, indeed lots of it, out there other then our own, then why would a All powerful God give half a shit about a bunch of advanced apes on some little planet out in some galaxy.


Think of the bacteria in Gods nose as universes, and the quarks in the protons in the atoms that make up one of those bacteria as you. As much as you care for the quark in that bacteria, that is how much God would care about the Human race.

[chaos1428]

Hench my original thought. God just doesn't give a shit.

[Nohimn]

THAT was completely flame worthy.... careful....

[Revolution]

It doesent Look Flat to Me......?

http://www.msss.com/earth/earth_icon.gif

[BLuE_ZeRO]

maybe to the untrained eye but it clearly is a fake to throw us off. :lol:

[Nohimn]

Some years ago, NASA released the first deep-space photographs of the beautiful cloud-swirled blue-green agate we call Earth. A reporter showed one of them to the late Samuel Shenton, then president of International Flat Earth Research Society. Shenton studied it for a moment and said, �It's easy to see how such a picture could fool the untrained eye.�

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Damn you discovered my secret identity /me dissapears :eek:

[mistled]

Originally posted by Nohimn
okay, here are the links for the world is flat crap:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/fe-scidi.htm
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm Sorry man, but this guy is a nutcase. He in no way holds any of the beliefs of any Christian I've ever met (heck, I've never met anyone at all with these beliefs that I know of).

He also takes scripture entirely out of context (but when you're trying to prove that the Earth is flat, you kind of have to). The verses cited are a comparison between a single person's ability to move the entire earth by force and anything's ability to move God by force. In both cases, it is impossible, as both are immovable by outside force. Both can move, but neither can be moved.

[Sputty]

The earth CAN be moved as it is a large mass. Although, we don't have the technology to do it really, even though with damming of water that has thrown off the axis a little so technically we have.

[Revolution]

Well I guess it is flat because technically if you say pointed due West(and the oceans/mountians etc didnt effect you) you would walk for ever. So thats kinda flat right? You can keep going for infinity(Till the Sun super novas or what have you) round and round, but it always seems flat, for us and our size on the BALL. Sphere. Globe. Round Thing.

[Warborn]

The fact that you can walk around it forever and ever means it's round. Otherwise there'd be an edge, and you'd fall off after going too far.

[Revolution]

Hense the world is not flat. Hey, shall we take this thread and email its link to the flat world people?!
Wonder what kind of argument they would put up.

[chaos1428]

And the fact that if the world was flat, there wouldn't br any oceans. They would all run off the edge of the planet.

[Sputty]

They said there as a 150 foot wall around the earth.

[Revolution]

150 foot wall? Thats it? (Its a wall of Ice right?)

Lets just admit that we are all controlled by aliens and their experiment......:rolleyes:

[Denali]

Ok, my response to the "I only believe what I can see with my own two eyes" there is no God argument. Before I start kudos to Mistled, I agree with everything you've said thus far.

Francis Crick once used this example while attempting to explain consciousness. Imagine Mary, a colorblind neuroscientist, who is extremely interested in color vision. She studies it at length, and eventually is able to pinpoint the exact areas of the brain responsible for color vision, even which areas respond to which color. Now, even though Mary has become more knowledgable about color vision than any person on the planet, she still will never truly understand color. She will never experience color.

Why does Mary believe in color? She has never seen it, she has data which supports the fact that color exists, but really she just has data that happens to fit the facts. Nevertheless, she has faith that color does indeed exist.

Let's say you're a huge astronomy/astrophysics buff. Carl Sagan is your idol. You've read every publication that has to do with neutron stars, know every fact published about them and sleep with the "Idiots Guide to Neutron Stars" under your pillow every night. Of course you believe in the stars or you wouldn't study them. Have you ever seen a neutron star with your naked eye? Has anyone else? True you have data about the neutron star, mainly from doppler effect readings, but really the data can't be proven or dis-proven in this instance, it just seems to fit the facts. There may be new laws of physics that govern the existance of neutron stars. But still, you believe everything you have read to be true. You have faith in science, faith that neutron stars do indeed exist.

Now, pray tell, what is the difference between not believing in something until you have proof and believing in something until you have proof it doesn't exist? Two sides of the same coin. We all believe in things that we can't prove exist, every single day. We all do it. We may not all believe in a "God," but we all operate with faith in some context every day.

There will always be some things that are unexplainable by science. Some of the most decorated neuroscientists in the world that are studying consciousness have given in to the fact that there are just some things about the cause of consciousness that can't be explained. Some attempt to explain these, but there are always counter-arguments.

So to sum up (sorry for the book), we all have faith, we all operate under faith every single day. It's just a matter of what we have faith in. Neutron Stars, colorvision, God. They all fit the facts, most people have faith in one or another. Can you prove any of them wrong?

den

[Tobias]

There is a God, I have tea and crackers with him every friday and we discuss what should happen in the Universe.



















Just fyi, dont be by any major citys with airports 15 years from next tuesday.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Sputty
The earth CAN be moved as it is a large mass. Although, we don't have the technology to do it really, even though with damming of water that has thrown off the axis a little so technically we have. Reread what I said Sputty and quit trying to argue for arguement's sake. I said that the verses were a "comparison between a single person's ability to move the entire earth by force", not what all of mankind could perhaps accomplish someday in the future maybe. Go back over two thousand years to when those verses were written and you'll realize that at the time, the idea of being able to move the earth by force was inconceiveable.

[Tobias]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Reread what I said Sputty and quit trying to argue for arguement's sake. I said that the verses were a "comparison between a single person's ability to move the entire earth by force", not what all of mankind could perhaps accomplish someday in the future maybe. Go back over two thousand years to when those verses were written and you'll realize that at the time, the idea of being able to move the earth by force was inconceiveable.


while a single person could not move the earth, and God is not big enough to, he could get the Vixtath'mogatinic`vibrrric'saladwi`thn'o`ran'`cher o's to do it, they are quite large.

[Ludio]

The_Denali, faith in god and faith in science is different. If you have faith in neuron stars its because there was some form of data that you couldnt explain, someone came along (you seem to be the expert on this so you would know more than me) and explained the data. Other people looked at that data and eventually said that the model of the neuron star is the best thing we have to explain it. Now lets look at something like the brain, at the moment scientists have said that they cant understand all of it, does that mean that it will be that way forever? No, just as 100 years ago no one knew how to go into space, at the moment no one knows everything about the brain.

Now faith in god is a bit more complicated. We look at the universe and say we dont know how it came into being, someone thinks maybe it was something more powerfull then anything we could imagine. Everyone else cant think of anything better and so they go ahead and believe it. In reality we know nothing. There is no data to support a god, it is an untested hypothesis, it doesnt mean it isnt true, just untested. The universe is like the brain, at the moment we dont have the slightest clue where it came from, but that doesnt mean we cant find out, just that it is beyond us at the moment.

I can understand the need to think that there is something that created the universe, it is very difficult to understand and at times I have wanted to explain it myself, but instead of just attributing to a higher power why not accept that it is beyond current understanding, and may well be for a long time.

[Sputty]

Mitled, I wasn't arguing anything, but I was jsut make a note to add. If you think I was arguing, you're WRONG! :lol: JK, but I was jsut pointing out a useless fact. That's what I do...

[Denali]

Ludio, I agree totally. But, why is the concept of faith in a "God" and the faith in other things different? They all come from the same place in a person (IMHO), who's to say that one day someone will travel across the stars and come across a neutron star and do experiments and observe all the theories relating to them to be true. Yay. This same person turns around to come home, and comes across a being on the way home. Turns out to be God. So, all of those theories have just been proven true also. (Now I"m not saying that someone could just wander around in a space ship and run into God. It'd be far easier to just drop a bunch of acid ;) ) The point of my rant is this: faith in all things comes from the same place, things really aren't all that different...and anything's possible...except Nav ever being Pimptastic.....that's just absurd....

den