MAX Timers [Archive] - PlanetSide Universe

Warborn

2004-02-13, 02:57 AM

I've been playing as a MAX recently (when the lag allows me to play half-decently) and I think I've gained some respect for MAX users. The Decimator will kill you in two hits, and virtually everyone has one. That plus the 5 minute timer on MAX armor makes me realize how awesome the Uni-MAX change was.

So, I'm not really sure the 5 minute MAX reequip timer is going to be such a good idea anymore, now that the Decimator being moved to AV and AV itself is being buffed. We will definitely be seeing even more Decimators, in addition to more stand AV, after the next patch. Not to mention that the added ammo for AV will see people being a bit more liberal when choosing their targets. For instance, before the Striker's lock-on was changed so that I had to lock before I could fire, I used to save my Striker ammo for aircraft and not bother with MAXs unless they were an immidiate threat. Had I 3x the ammo I will come the next patch, I'd certainly be more willing to fire off a couple rounds into a MAX too.

I'm thinking that something needs to change, and I think it should be the MAX timers. With how easy it is to kill MAXs, I'd personally like to see the MAX timer reduced significantly. Say, 2 minutes, or even 1 minute, instead of the regular 5 minutes. MAXs aren't that hard to kill anymore, and with the AV change you'll be seeing a lot more Strikers and (more accurate) Lancers, and maybe a couple more Phoenixes, though they're already pretty popular. Without relaxing the restrictions on MAX armor, I think MAX users will be getting the short end of the stick with this patch.

Oh, and just to elaborate on why I'd opt for a timer at all, an individual being able to sit at an inventory terminal, cycling through his MAX armor, would be nearly unkillable. You'd be forced to destroy the terminal and then kill the MAX guy. So there has to be some timer, I just don't think 5 minutes is justified anymore.

2mthsTheSniper

2004-02-13, 06:45 AM

I've only been playing a few weeks, so don't know anything about 'the good old times' but I've just given up my TR UniMAX because it's just not worth bothering with. You get killed too quickly and can't actually inflict enough damage to kill anyone unless you are lucky enough to go 1 on 1. The only excetion is the AA, which apart from being near impossible to hit Libs with is actually quite good fun. I might buy that on it's own later on, but not the AI or AV (which really sucks).

The timers just make this situation worse. I see why they need to be there, but I think perhaps a shorter time for the AA at least (as it's really no use against inf - ie in a siege situation) might be a good move for players. Nothing more annoying than having a Reaver camped outside a tower and having to wait minutes between attempts to fight it (you don't last long in a stream of their rockets).

JakeLogan

2004-02-13, 10:02 AM

Sniper believe it or not MAXS do take some skill to use. and when you finally do get good with them. you will be able to take alot of people down with you. (Thank god they are making the DC AI again I dropped the Pounder because it was generating to much grief.)

UncleDynamite

2004-02-13, 10:06 AM

Good point, Warborn, the timers need to go down dramatically. I think 2 minutes is a reasonable change. As for 2mths, the TR MAXes are going to get some considerable improvements very soon :)

Krinsath

2004-02-13, 10:12 AM

I believe the MAX timers should be re-worked as well. First, 5 minutes is a bit excessive...that's the same timer as a tank has (which for a vehicle I feel is about right) but a MAX is *nowhere* near as durable as a tank. Sure, the Uni-MAX gives you other suits you can wear to pass the time, but I think most people will agree that the MAXes are horribly inefficient against things they're not designed to take out (and in the case of AV MAXes...against their intended target).

2.5-3 minutes seems a bit better, especially since in heavy fighting that will still be a significant penalty.

With Uni-MAX we saw a surge of MAX users, but that just caused everyone to cert SA and both non-VS factions settled out on their MAX numbers. In fact, the TR rarely have MAXes anymore (which is the reason for the current changes) so it's hard to judge, but I really do not even see NC MAXes in significant numbers. The boosts to AV make me wonder if even Uni-MAX will be enough to keep non-purple people in MAXes without some other change...which is a shame as MAX suits are kind of a neat idea.

If they kept the durability the same, I really wouldn't mind seeing the MAXes be slightly more powerful...

SilverLord

2004-02-13, 10:37 AM

I used to play a VS UniMax guy and thought that timer needed to go. I believe and agree with Warborn on the subject but I also believe the only MAXes worth getting are VS MAXes until the new patch.

And another things, why does our AA max no longer do slash damage but the VS AA max still has plasma damage to infantry and the NC AA max still has their slash damage? Kinda weird if you ask me. Maybe it's because the flak travels so fast?

Jagd

2004-02-13, 10:41 AM

Equipment module reduces MAX timers a fair bit. Any more reductions could get right stupid, cause I do *not* want to have to kill that same bloody Quasar every 2 minutes. The main thing most MAX users do wrong is rush out there like they have unlimited armor, when as we all know 650 armor doesn't amount to much when your opponent packs a decimator like 3 out of 4 players seem to. Treat your MAX like you would a vehicle-- travel with an engineer, be cautious, don't get caught in the open, etc, etc.

I tend to reserve MAX favourites for defense, or when I can hack a terminal in an enemy base. Being outdoors in a MAX (other than the anti-air units) is pretty much a guaranteed way to get owned. You are just not fast or maneuverable enough to compete out there, and you are faced with the fact that AV weapons (including the deci) excel at medium-long range, whereas the AV and AI MAXes are pretty much useless beyond short range. Sure, a Dual-Cycler can tickle you from 200m, but he sure isn't landing enough bullets to actually bring you down. And let's not forget vehicles; other than ATVs and maybe a smoking Harasser, vehicles can squish MAXes like jackhammers rip through spawning troops.

Madcow

2004-02-13, 10:44 AM

You have to be very careful with the timers, though. During tower defense in big siege situations I'm the suicidal AA MAX making a run to the top of the tower to take out 2 of the rocket spamming Reavers before people can react and deci me. That's a fair trade to me, but if I'm able to churn out another AA MAX pretty quickly there's actually a chance that all aircraft could be cleared out without much issue. Without Reavers spamming the doors, that's one giant piece of the tower siege that the rest of the people in the tower don't have to concern themselves with. I would say making it anything less than 3 minutes is a mistake.

Krinsath

2004-02-13, 11:05 AM

I guess the issue here is that Uni-MAX is 5 certs, the most expensive single cert in the game. Sure, MAXes are quite powerful, but you're restricted in a lot of ways too. That in itself is almost balanced, but throwing in the 5 minute equipment timers is really painful. It's possible to get killed in a very short time as a MAX because you really have no way of evading these faster infantry. Doesn't matter what kind of support you bring along in those situations. So the built-in limitations of being a MAX are already a debatable balance.

But on the other side of the coin, you can't simply go the other way and remove that timer entirely, as that would give the MAX users way too much power. Two to three minutes though would be a happy medium, especially now that AV has gotten such a boost.

For example, a Phoenix before could easily carry enough ammo (meaning, not have to take up entire inventory with Phoenix ammo) to take down 3 MAXes, so seeing one every two minutes would be awful (2 minute timer X 15 minute base hack = 7 possible MAX suits...and 7>3). Now they can carry enough to take down 9, so it isn't nearly as bad (2x15=7...but 7<9). Since most of the MAX weapons that do splash damage have had the AI damage reduced, it won't hurt the infantry so much. Pilots, perhaps they'll get hammered more often, but it will eventually occur to them that they can't just park their aircraft stationary over the enemy.

Just my thoughts.

Veteran

2004-02-13, 11:40 AM

Does the speed module affect the MAX timer?

Jagd

2004-02-13, 11:42 AM

Nope, just footspeed and respawn timers.

http://planetside.station.sony.com/corecombat/ancient.jsp

Queensidecastle

2004-02-13, 11:46 AM

I agree with Warborns original assesment and have been saying that MAXs are too vunerable for months, but I think the Uni-MAX cert is the way around the timer. That cert almost always ensures you are in a MAX suit. I think Decimators need to do less damage to MAXs and that is how I would handle it

Gigabein

2004-02-13, 11:47 AM

(I've said this before) Deci damage is too over-powering vs. max. My suggestion is to require 3 direct hits, and 4-5 if it's splash dmg. So many people carry deci's that this would hopefully give maxes a more balanced chance of surviving without hamstringing infantry.

Jagd

2004-02-13, 11:50 AM

No no no. If they do that, they need to increase it to 5 rockets per decimator. It takes up a whole row of agile inventory space, it had better be a guaranteed MAX kill with one tube.

Gigabein

2004-02-13, 11:56 AM

It is guaranteed. You just have to land all 3 shots. And since when should an Agile stand a good chance against a MAX?!

Queensidecastle

2004-02-13, 11:56 AM

Its absolutely absurd for a weapon that takes 6 seconds to unload and that takes 3 ammo boxs of inventory space to kill a fresh MAX. Its just overpowered and stupid. MAXs should be feared and a bit hard to deal with because they are extremely limited in the way they can play the game while in a MAX suit (no driving, no gunning, no hacking, no repairing, no healing, hell no riding in anything but a Gal/Sund) not to mention the 5 minute timer and no access from an AMS.

Veteran

2004-02-13, 11:57 AM

I wish there were MAX terminals instead of just getting your MAX suits at equipment terminals. I kinda like the idea that the spawn matrix is encasing your flesh inside the MAX, rather than jumping in and zipping up.

Jagd

2004-02-13, 12:05 PM

Why is that absurd? Any AV or AI MAX has the ability to kill you before you can get a 3rd shot off, which means you have to lead and land 2 direct hits with a dumb-fire weapon or you will get owned. And that's if you have the decimator out when you run into them, if they see you first or simultaneously they will usually have you dead before you can fire twice.

Veteran

2004-02-13, 12:17 PM

The splash radius on the Decimator is rather large, and camera-guided mode is how I fire 90% of my shots with it. I've taken out aircraft pretty well with it.

Jagd

2004-02-13, 12:27 PM

As do I, but requiring 3 direct hits would throw that balance off. If you can land 2 direct hits, you should get the kill and have another rocket left for the next MAX. If you get a near-miss with one of those 2 shots, then you have to use the whole decimator. I don't know, but the decimator is still the least ammo-efficient weapon in the game, and in light of these recent ammo changes nerfing the decimator in any way would be a complete departure. If anything, it deserves a buff but I am fine with leaving it as is. I am already going to have to sacrifice the thumper and rocklet to keep my baby. :(

Hamma

2004-02-13, 12:33 PM

Decreasing max timers would be worth a shot, it was originally done in beta because everyone and their mom (and moms mom) was running around in MAX. But it would be worth tweaking to see the outcome.

Be sure to submit this to the dev interview form :P

Onizuka-GTO

2004-02-13, 01:11 PM

The splash radius on the Decimator is rather large...

Really? How come you don't get blown away (and anyone else standing too close) when you fire it point blank at a Max when indoors? Surely the backlash of the explosion should have some effect....

Madcow

2004-02-13, 01:13 PM

Because the decimator does almost no damage to soft targets, it's all about anti armor.

Warborn

2004-02-13, 02:19 PM

Equipment module reduces MAX timers a fair bit. Any more reductions could get right stupid, cause I do *not* want to have to kill that same bloody Quasar every 2 minutes.

I'd remove the MAX timer reduction from the module and make it a flat 2 minute reequip timer.

The main thing most MAX users do wrong is rush out there like they have unlimited armor, when as we all know 650 armor doesn't amount to much when your opponent packs a decimator like 3 out of 4 players seem to. Treat your MAX like you would a vehicle-- travel with an engineer, be cautious, don't get caught in the open, etc, etc.

What MAX is it that is designed to prey on things which can't kill you in seconds, though? Infantry carry Decimators, aircraft like Reavers have rocket spam which will mess you up like nothing else, and vehicles have bumpers and, given that most ground vehicles are tanks, a main cannon which will tear you a new one. There is no way to play a MAX where you aren't exposing yourself to something which can kill you in a very short amount of time. There is no amount of caution short of hiding in the spawn room that will prevent you from being spammed by a Reaver you didn't see, killed in two shots by infantry with a Decimator, or run over/blown up by everything with wheels or treads. Regular infantry don't get slapped by a 5 minute timer when they play a little more recklessly, neither should MAXs.

Uberpimp

2004-02-13, 02:44 PM

I know I'm a noob to this place but I agree with warborn. I played as a TR MAX for a couple of months (and made next to no progress) and I found it completley annoying to be owned then wait another five minutes to be....owned again. So at least lower the time. If you're bitching about killing the same person 2 minutes later the odds are even after 5 minutes they still have a grudge and are going to go after you anyways. (I would) :cool:

Angel_of_Death

2004-02-13, 03:46 PM

Increase MAX armor so that a deci kills with 2 direct hits, and one deci that comes very close and does splash. Not sure how much armor that would have to be....800 maybe? MAXs are meant to be feared, and as it stands with the Deci to AV and the AV buffs, MAXs will be indirectly nerfed, as infils were.

Regular infantry don't get slapped by a 5 minute timer when they play a little more recklessly, neither should MAXs.

Regular infantry also don't spend 3 certs and gain an extra 550 armor, as well as a powerful weapon. Decrease the MAX timers slightly, to 4 minutes. Any more wouldn't be fair.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-13, 03:57 PM

Why is that absurd? Any AV or AI MAX has the ability to kill you before you can get a 3rd shot off, which means you have to lead and land 2 direct hits with a dumb-fire weapon or you will get owned.

I explained why: MAXs are extremely limited in the way they can play the game while in a MAX suit (no driving, no gunning, no hacking, no repairing, no healing, hell no riding in anything but a Gal/Sund) not to mention the 5 minute timer and no access from an AMS.

Additionally, MAXs in my opinion should be the heavy assault troopers, instead of this stupid quake crap we have now with Surgiles and Heavy assault. It was a mistake from the beginning to buff HA the way they did when the Jackhammer just needed to be brought back down into reasonable range. The Sweeper and rocklet was all the instagib we needed. MAXs should be the shock trooper.

4 Decimator shots would be fine but the current 3 shots is just lame

Jagd

2004-02-13, 04:51 PM

I dunno, I do pretty well with my dual-cycler, but like I said, I don't go outside at all. Use them strictly in tower/base fights where I know I can't make it out the door. Sure, infantry will pop decimators at you, but hiding around corners, in alcoves, staying with a friendly engineer and a nice dash of patience have bagged me a whole lot of kills with the thing. As a VS uni-max, I fear nothing except the sprint + jump from tower to base.

BadAsh

2004-02-13, 05:14 PM

Sorry, I�m a bit late into this conversation. I think the MAX timers should stay as they are. There needs to be a limit on the MAX suits or you will just perpetually be fighting the same MAX over and over during a tower or base siege.

As for the Decimator�s effectiveness against a MAX, I think that should stay as it is. For a long time I thought of nerfing the Decimator�s anti-MAX power, but I decided It�s best as it currently is. The true power of a MAX is when they are integrated with infantry. If your infantry has basic engineering and MA or HA they pair up with crushing effectiveness. Enemy infantry rounding the corner with AV/Deci in hand get bum rushed my HA infantry. When the enemy rounds the corner with MA or HA the support troops fall back and the MAX steps forward for some spankage. That combo in a tower or lower base levels can be dominating. The way to beat this is to just wear them down and eventually take the MAX units out. If the MAX units were instantly replaceable then this tough nut to crack would become nearly uncrackable without a massive zerg.

My point here is that the MAX should not be a one man army. So leave it�s nemesis, the Deci, alone. And leave the timer alone.

Warborn

2004-02-13, 05:29 PM

Regular infantry also don't spend 3 certs and gain an extra 550 armor, as well as a powerful weapon. Decrease the MAX timers slightly, to 4 minutes. Any more wouldn't be fair.

Regular infantry are able to use utilities, vehicles, have more mobility, and can be self-sufficient with the proper equipment. MAXs can't do any of that, which is why the timer needs to be ~2 minutes instead of 5, or the MAXs need to get a lot more armor to make them able to survive longer.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-13, 05:30 PM

My point here is that the MAX should not be a one man army. So leave it�s nemesis, the Deci, alone. And leave the timer alone.
Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload" :mad:

Warborn

2004-02-13, 05:43 PM

Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload" :mad:

I agree with this. With AV getting a boost I was actually considering making this thread instead a "let's change the deci so that it isn't so lethal to MAXs but has a different application", only I couldn't think of a decent application for it. Suffice to say, the ease with which I can use Surge to dance around a MAX with a Deci, giving me a free kill and him a wait time, is pretty ridiculous. MAXs sacrifice so much for being barely more effective at their given job than infantry is (with the exception of AA MAXs), and yet the trade off is incredible given their inutility and weakness to AV weapons.

Neon Apocalypse

2004-02-13, 07:55 PM

I totally agree with jagd, a 2min timer is ridiculous. You cant just go out and kill in a max like you're immortal or something, take cover, and dont always charge up the front.

Warborn

2004-02-13, 08:22 PM

I totally agree with jagd, a 2min timer is ridiculous. You cant just go out and kill in a max like you're immortal or something, take cover, and dont always charge up the front.

That's exactly my point. You aren't immortal. You do die pretty quickly. So why is a 5 minute timer necessary? If MAXs are just as prone to being killed as infantry are should they put a foot out the door, and aren't even close to being Gods in their combat ability, why are they crammed with a myriad of restrictions including a five minute reequip timer? With how AV weaponry is being bumped up, there has to be some consideration for the things AV weapons tend to prey on. Reavers can kiss my ass, but MAXs need to be augmented in response.

Heckler01

2004-02-13, 09:01 PM

BadAsh

2004-02-13, 09:26 PM

Having the Deci take 4 shots instead of 3 doesnt create a 1 man army. All it does is resolve a stupid situation where the Decimator is overpowered. I mean, hello, you dont even need to reload to kill a MAX. Thats just not right. You should in the very least have to reload some weapon to fully kill a fresh MAX. I know Decis dont reload so you should have to go into your inventor and equip a new one to "reload" :mad:

The deci and timer force MAX units to use teamwork with infantry support or get spanked.

Imagine a 3 or 4 shot deci kill and AI maxes with no timer... ok, so I have a platoon defending against the zerg... from the base spawn room we just max suit up and rush, die, and instanty suit up again... you'd have a perpetual stream of AI MAX units pouring from the spawn room... who the hell would be able to take that?

Answer a perpetual stream of MAX units pouring from the tower...

Also who needs support certs like engineering? Just go to the terminal change armor and *poof* you are instantly back to 650 armor and fresh ammo/health pack capacity...

Above ground vehicles and a perpetual flood of MAX units would own... inside MAX units would own... you just need a few good cloakers to hack doors, CC, and terminals...

Welcome to MAXside... a.k.a. PlanetSide II

NO THANKS!

Warborn

2004-02-13, 09:31 PM

After the change to AV, all armor is effected Aircraft too. Why not MAXs? Planteside is moving towards a more team orientaded direction. Changing the timers would just support the current Rambo/Quake style that so many complain about. You keep the timers the way they are more people are forced to work together. You will see all MAXs running with there pet engis.

The deci is fine, for my 3 (6 with MA)certs I better have a good chance of killing someone who also spent 3 (5 if uni-max)certs. Not to mention once that deci is gone my MAX killing abilities are greatly reduced.

Vehicles being affected is the entire reason AV is being changed. MAXs were not a major problem, however, and yet they will be adversely affected by this.

Changing the timer does not encourage the "Rambo/Quake style" anymore than it already is in other facets of PS. In the game, I tend to snipe a lot. You think I need anybody with me to snipe? Hell no. I can heal and repair myself and support myself in other ways as well. I do not need anyone with me to snipe effectively. MAXs, on the other hand, are completely dependent on others for repairs and are very restricted in what they can and can't kill with any given weapon. Even with a 2 minute timer MAXs are light years more dependent on other people and less inclined to go out solo than any other type of player in the game. Pilots, ground vehicle crews, and light infantry of all types are all free to go out solo and be self-sufficient, and you're worried about MAXs doing the same by just reducing their timer? Give me a break.

Also, while you may think the Decimator (it's 2 certs to get MA, so it costs 5 certs in total) is fine because you paid 5 certs for it, maybe I should inform you that unlike regular infantry, MAXs can't heal or repair themselves. MAXs can't hack. MAXs can't carry a variety of weapons as infantry can to give them flexibility in combat. Like, say, carrying a Decimator in your backpack so that if you see a MAX, so you can stow your HA and kill the MAX in two shots. They trade a lot of utility for benefits which fall to pieces the minute they encounter someone with a Decimator, who'll heal and repair themself to full after killing the MAX, and them pull out some other weapon to go kill infantry with too. This is a broken system, and one I honestly hope the developers change in the near future, because the AV buff is going to aggravate it like hell.

Happy lil Elf

2004-02-13, 11:03 PM

I agree with Oxo and War, sorta. MAXs aren't even an annoyance anymore.

With the number of deci users out there you're better off with a HA weapon and Agile/Standard armor when assaulting the enemy. Think about that for a second. You're better off making a fontal assault in the least protective armor. That's. Fucked. Up.

Quite frankly if you want to assault a base you should be using MAXs as your killing power and infantry for support. That is encouraging teamwork. The way it's currently working you're better off taking a HA weapon, ammo and maybe a Deci incase you hit a MAX and running around shooting everything in sight. You don't need anyone else for anything other than giving the enemy other bodies to shoot at so you don't get totally ganbanged.

However if you're using MAXs for your assault and infantry to support them, teamwork is required if you wish to succeed. The counter for MAXs should be MAXs or vehicles. AV (once the Deci is in) should be an option, but it shouldn't be nearly as viable of an option as having AV MAXs backing you up when you're facing those enemy MAXs turning that corner. As it stands now you're better off having people with Decis than you are having people in AV MAXs because not only can they take out those MAXs as infantry with Decis as well, if not better, than being suited up in an AV MAX, they are still very mobile and can be completely self sufficient. A MAX needs repairs. It needs people to open doors. Someone in Rexo/Agile/Standard doesn't.

Because of the Deci users the same goes for AI MAXs. You're better of as infantry because a lot of people have Decis and if you're in a MAX that basically means you're fucked. However as infantry not only are you much more self sufficient but you also generally are going to live longer because of your increased mobility and no Deci users to worry about. Yes you can still die quickly but on average you're going to live longer because you can dodge much easier and you can run away using surge. As a MAX a shitload of people have a gun that can maul you very quickly but you don't have the mobility needed to run or dodge.

Again, as it stands right now with AV and the Deci being as powerful against MAXs as the are, you're better off and you live longer in the weakest armor types. That isn't right.

So what is the answer? Recuding MAX timer? Well, that could help the problem but I don't think it addresses the real issue with MAXs. That issue being you don't get enough protection for wearing the heaviest kind of armor. Or rather you're able to take a ton of AI fire, but the proliferation of AV weaponry makes your average lifespan go down while wearing MAX armor. So the two obvious options are buffing MAX armor or nerfing AV weaponry. If I had to pick out of those I'd take the buff. Anti-vehicle weaponry already has enough trouble dealing with vehicles. Nerfing the damage would only exacerbate that problem. Increasing MAX armor? Well you would be in effect making MAXs all but invulnerable to AI weaponry, but I don't really have a problem with that. The key would be how much to you adjust it. That's something that would require a lot of numbers and testing to balance.

The point however remains. If you want to encourage teamwork and reduce the moronic quake feeling that is so often present in PS, you need to encourage teamwork which means reducing the ability of players to be self sufficient. As it stands you can be totally self sufficient as infantry and while you can deal some impressive damage with a MAX, you oftentimes don't live long enough for it to matter and the drawbacks of using a MAX suit really aren't worth the loss in overall effectiveness to most people.

Warborn

2004-02-14, 12:04 AM

So what is the answer? Recuding MAX timer? Well, that could help the problem but I don't think it addresses the real issue with MAXs. That issue being you don't get enough protection for wearing the heaviest kind of armor. Or rather you're able to take a ton of AI fire, but the proliferation of AV weaponry makes your average lifespan go down while wearing MAX armor.

As I noted above, I'm in complete agreement with this sentiment. I honestly think MAXs need a major armor boost and that the Decimator in its current form needs to go. With AV being enhanced, let people fight MAXs with their AV weapons. Don't think you'll survive an encounter with an AI MAX using your AV weapon? Good, that's the idea. They're surrendering all of the versitility, mobility and self-sufficiency of standard infantry for something, and that something needs to pay off.

The reason I suggested a lighter spawn timer instead was because I'm not sure if the devs want MAXs to be formidable. Their design doc regarding MAX armor may illustrate that MAXs, for instance, are meant to be only marginally stronger than Reinforced in terms of their impact on battles. I'm definitely glad this thread has evolved into this much more effective (in my opinion) solution, though.

Seer

2004-02-14, 02:49 AM

I'd have more fun in this game if maxs were something to be, I don't know, feared.

I'd rather they be more powerful than for the timers to go down. Decreasing the deci's effectiveness is a start.

Fenrys

2004-02-14, 03:30 AM

Timers are not a problem with Uni-MAX. I don't think any changes are needed, but I don't think it would make a huge difference if the timers were lowered.

ChewyLSB

2004-02-14, 08:59 AM

Warborn

2004-02-14, 11:15 AM

In my opinion, it is absolutely ridiculous the way the decimator works out. Even if it is an Anti-Vehicle weapon, why should an Anti-Infantry Suit be killed by infantry? It's like a soldier with a LAW taking out a T-80. It's possible, but highly unlikely.

No, it's like a guy with a LAW taking out a T-80 at optimal range and elevation for the T-80's main gun and whatever secondary weapons it has. You're walking into its supposed niche and beating it at its own game.

Fenrys

2004-02-14, 01:39 PM

Against a MAX, the Deci should have a TTK >= the worst AV MAX. Against armor, an AV MAX should be as effective or mores so than any infantry weapon.

Nerf the Deci or buff the MAX.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-14, 01:45 PM

I dont think it even needs to be that drastic. Let the Deci do all the damage it does to everything else but make it where it does less damage to MAX suits. After all, MAXs are not vehicles. When is the last time you saw someone bail out of a MAX suit?

Spee

2004-02-14, 01:49 PM

BadAsh

2004-02-14, 04:56 PM

Seriously. This chapped my ass hardcore.

Jumpjet into tower, in Quasar MAX.
Proceed to CC.
Come across guy with JH out, begin shooting at the length between the floor and halfway up the stairway.
JH guy has enough time to turn, see me, put away JH, take out deci, shoot me once, backpedal as I jumpjet, and smack me again as I try to evade.

WTF? No, that should NEVER happen, EVER. ESPECIALLY against an AI MAX.

Deci's TTK against AV/AA MAX should be lower than thier TTK towards a deci user, but NOT against an AI MAX.

I know that can be annoying, but...

1. Your TTK is faster than his, in that situation either you were missing ALOT or he was just using cover while he reloaded. I kill MAX units all the time with the Phoenix which is a 3 shot kill... mobility+cover=win.

2. As to my earlier point... if you had just 1 MA or HA infantry buddy this guy would be an easy kill. The strength of the MAX is it forces the infantry to make the decision... do I carry my gun in hand or do I carry my deci in hand... this makes him vitually naked against either infantry or MAX units. Just exploit this weakness with your tactics. Go in with a HA or MA infantry buddy... And when some rexo tries to play decimator peek-a-boo around a corner like that your infantry guy will rush in for the easy kill AND block his deci shot by charging right into his face... now the enemy can only hit him and he can't miss... it is over quickly. Have your infantry buddy take the "point" position where he goes first. The enemy comes back with HA? No problem, infantry boy pulls back around the corner and this time you are used as cover.... a AI MAX and 1 or 2 infantry can own in a tower for a long time using this tactic.

Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo... I much prefer the power to remain in teamwork.

Warborn

2004-02-14, 06:37 PM

I know that can be annoying, but...

1. Your TTK is faster than his, in that situation either you were missing ALOT or he was just using cover while he reloaded. I kill MAX units all the time with the Phoenix which is a 3 shot kill... mobility+cover=win.

Even though the MAX has sacrificed so much you think it's A-OK that stuff like what Spee described happens (and it does happen a lot, make no mistake about it)? And short of never going inside a building or in heavily wooded/rocky areas, how exactly does a MAX avoid such attacks?

2. As to my earlier point... if you had just 1 MA or HA infantry buddy this guy would be an easy kill. The strength of the MAX is it forces the infantry to make the decision... do I carry my gun in hand or do I carry my deci in hand... this makes him vitually naked against either infantry or MAX units. Just exploit this weakness with your tactics. Go in with a HA or MA infantry buddy... And when some rexo tries to play decimator peek-a-boo around a corner like that your infantry guy will rush in for the easy kill AND block his deci shot by charging right into his face... now the enemy can only hit him and he can't miss... it is over quickly. Have your infantry buddy take the "point" position where he goes first. The enemy comes back with HA? No problem, infantry boy pulls back around the corner and this time you are used as cover.... a AI MAX and 1 or 2 infantry can own in a tower for a long time using this tactic.

You run into these situations a lot when you attack a base or tower. As it turns out, unless you completely overhwelm the enemy anyway, you've always got a mix. Some of the guys will have Decimators out to shoot at the MAXs, some will have their HA for the infantry. Even in a 2v2 situation, should both enemy infantry decide to pull out their Decimators, the MAX will be killed immidiately, and then you have one infantry guy against two infantry guys, though one or both will be damaged somewhat. For all the flash and restrictions dumped upon a MAX, they are anything but decisive in combat.

Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo... I much prefer the power to remain in teamwork.

As I said earlier in this post, MAXs are the only guys who can't solo. I can solo with my sniper or as regular infantry, or in a Reaver or tank (provided I have a gunner, though I can repair myself) or anything else. PS is not a game where teamwork is necessary. All that's necessary is numbers. MAXs are the only people who are forced to rely on others, and as such, I think it's very unusual that people would use the "well MAXs shouldn't be able to solo" excuse, when they themselves almost certainly solo, or if not, have the capacity to solo.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-14, 07:13 PM

Nerfing the Deci and or decreasing the MAX armor timer will only allow for MAX units to rambo
Decis taking 4 shots instead of 3 is about as far from rambo as you get

BadAsh

2004-02-14, 07:24 PM

ChewyLSB

2004-02-14, 08:02 PM

So you think that's it's absolutely fair that an Infantry still has a 50/50 chance against an anti-infantry MAX?

Happy lil Elf

2004-02-14, 08:18 PM

The main point is you sacfrifice a lot for using a MAX. With how common AV weaponry has become, does the sacrifice make taking a MAX over a lighter suit of armor with it's increased arsenal, mobility and effectivness a viable option? The answer, at least in my opinion, is no it does not.

And the real bitch? Adjusting anything to create the appropriatre balance is damn near impossible. Why? You can't take into consideration the human factor. People tend to dump anything that gets nerfed and pick up anything that gets buffed damn near immediately. If everyone and their mother wasn't carrying Decis there wouldn't be a problem. However if you up the MAX armor and people get frustrated and drop the Deci you now have an overpowered MAX suit.

Take the Jackhammer for instance. Back when the Jackhammer was a joke (and in it's early days it was) no one used it because it was like pissing four certs away for what was essentially a pretty looking Sweeper. So it gets buffed and, as is usual, people flocked to it which then reated an imbalance not due to it's power, but due to the fact that everyone had it. The same happened with the TR MAXs when they got nerfed. Everyone dropped the cert and since NC/VS was no longer facing 3 or 4 locked down AI MAX suits everytime they tried to enter a base, the maybe 1 or 2 that kept the cert no longer had the power to stand up to the opposition they were facing. It's been seen time and time again. Because of how the average player reacts to nerfs/buffs, it's very difficult to get things working as intended.

Making any change to this game is vey very difficult, because depending on the perception of the change and can not only eliminate any balance issues that are out of whack, but create another imbalance in the exact opposite of what it was before.

To top it all off? We have little to no idea how the Devs really want this game to work. Do they want MAX suits to be the main spearhead of any assault? Do they want it to focus more on mobility? Do they want tanks to be the end all to outdoor battles? Do they like that infantry have very little in their arsenal to fight back against tanks or do they want infantry to be able to deal with heavy tanks effectivly as well? Do they want someone ina MAX suit to be largely defensless to any infantry who knows how to circle and pull out a deci at the same time? We simply don't know. Good questions for an ask the devs I suppose but I have a feeling any direct and to the point questions about "How do you want <topic> to work? Is it working and being used as intended?" will get sidestepped faster than you can blink.

Onizuka-GTO

2004-02-14, 09:28 PM

I think AV specialist Infantry should be the only one to have a fighting chance against Maxes and Vehicles.

Everyone else who spots Maxes & Vehicles should run in fear!
Like wise, if you ever see a Soldier with a AV weapon on his/her back running away from them, try and keep up! :lol:

Warborn

2004-02-14, 10:35 PM

IMHO, you guys are just not up to the challenge. When you suit up in an AI MAX you get a free kill on any infantry that does not have a Deci. To those that do have a Deci it's 50/50 on who wins depending on how smart you play it and what the situation is. If you see him comming you will win. If you don't he will, it's that simple.

First off, good luck finding an infantryman who doesn't have any AV weapon of any kind. Second, infantry with Decimators aren't your only problem. Reavers kill non-AA MAXs easily, and I'm sure they specifically look for MAXs when attacking. And finally, once again we come to this "well you can kill them sometimes" stuff. What is the infantry guy sacrificing in order to use a Decimator? A little bit of inventory space or a holster. You sacrifice all your utility, mobility, and versitility to have a 50/50 chance against someone who's giving up a weapon holster or a bit of inventory space. Good thing MAXs have a five minute timer too, huh?

That's damn good for 3 cert points. I'm not really sure what you guys want, invulnerability from infantry?

Invulnerability? Nah. How about some measure of protection against infantry?

Warborn you are talking about MAX units soloing and they CAN. I solo with my AA MAX all the time. I get into the same places snipers usually hang out and kill aircraft that come by. When I take enough damage or need more ammo I just jog over the the closest tower and repick my MAX.

Solo, rambo, whatever you want to call it. I'm saying that anything but a MAX is able to be self-sufficient on the battlefield, and you're calling foul because MAXs would be able to do the same should the timer go down (although given the responses I'm abandoning the timer deal and moving to significant MAX enhancements instead to justify the timer).

You seem to be asking for the power to rush into a horde of enemy infantry and kill them all with no risk. That's not solo, that's over powered.

Tanks can cut a swath through infantry no problem, and they share a lot of the limitations MAXs do too. Now, while I don't want MAXs to be comparable to tanks, I do want them to be far stronger than they are now. Either the developers enhance them to justify the timer and the array of restrictions imposed upon MAXs, or they reduce the restrictions and timer to justify the current inequities.

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 12:13 AM

Well,

All I can say is this... every time I get in my MAX suit I get several kills before being brought down. I don't bother with AV MAX units, just AA and AI.

With the AA MAX a typical "life" for me sees 2-5 enemy reavers dead and usually 1-2 enemy infanry before I'm brought down. This can be much lower in a Zerg when facing too many at one time, or much higher in a prime situation. My worst was in a tower and I did not notice the enemy Vanguard shelling from a distance. I died quickly. My best run was about 3 hours of guarding the top of an Air Tower. I shot down 72 enemy aircraft as they chased my wounded buddies to the repair pads.

With a typical AI MAX run I kill 3-5 infantry. My worst run was I tried to grab my MAX in a zerged spawn room. I managed to get it but the 20+ enemy troops/max units made quick work of me. My best run I got about 40 infantry kills with absolutly no assistance/repairs from friendly troops... every 5 min I'd "resuit" at the tower terminal to top off my armor.

I"m suspecthing the problems with MAX units I'm reading about here are similar to ones I've read about the Magrider. I hear horror stories of how the Mag can't kill a Van or a Prowler. Yet, with a half acurate gunner I just don't experience this at all. The MAG owns, you just have to learn how to use it.

If you don't understand how to use the equipment you won't get the results you want. MAX units don't need a buff and anti-max weapons don't need a nerf. Players who use MAX units need to figure out how to use them or die. Skill over a "free ride" is my preferance. Besides earning kills is much more satisfactory.

Happy lil Elf

2004-02-15, 02:51 AM

Veteran

2004-02-15, 03:11 AM

Dyentious

2004-02-15, 04:10 AM

I would have to state that the whole situation with the way MAX's are right now is completely dependent on how the balance of other weapons is at the moment.

as somebody else stated, decimators are being owned by tons of people right now, but all it takes is a small dev change to something and before you know it tons of people will be ditching their deci's for something else.

I think a lot of people get frusterated with MAX's because they are in a huge battle, and when they suit up and rush out they get owned very quickly. Well hell man, you're in a very powerful suit in a VERY large battle with tons of enemies, of course they are gonna try and take you out first.

The thing people never seem to take advantage of with MAX's, and wehre they truely shine, is in numbers. Yea, a single max by itself will get owned pretty fast, but if you have 3 or 4 MAX's all staying as a group, there is not much that is gonna take that down.
Some infantry with a deci? how many shots do you think he's gonne get off before 3 or 4 MAX's are able to take him down? People also need to remember is that part of the importance of being an engineer is to be able to REPAIR ARMOR. MAX's are much more powerful in a base when they are accompanied by an engineer that repairs them, but unfortunately people don't do this enough.

And all you people whining about the certs you paid for the MAX, you need to think about it a bit more. You're complaining about a guy being able to pull out his deci and take you out.. here are the certs in play..

MAX: 2 or 3 certs
The guy who killed you: Rexo: 3 certs, His normal gun he was carrying: 3 certs, the decimator he killed you with: another 3 certs.

Thats 2 or 3 certs vs 9 in play there. And even then, if a guy just killed you with a deci, you obviosly don't have enough support with you (some guy fireing a deci is easy pray for any other ally with you that has a gun), YOU failed to killl the infantry with your superior AI firepower, and he just landed ALL THREE shots with a slow dumbfire weapon. Lets not forget that the MAX also has an autorun mode which is very fast and makes it almost impossible for somebody to land a deci hit on you.

There are lots of things that could have been done here to prevent that from happening, but that requires teamwork. USE IT.

In general, people have a general feeling that they should be practically invulnerable in a MAX. This is not true, but the MAX is still a VERY powerful weapon when used correctly, and definately worth the certs if it is played right.

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 07:19 AM

The Decimator was a huge mistake. MAX armor should not be the 'easy target' on the field. No weapon is as deadly against infantry as the Deci is against MAXs. Don't say "Heavy Assault" because with camera-guided mode, MAX kills at 200 meters are pretty easy. Try that with a MCG.

Heavy Assault weapons and Medium asault weapons and AI MAX weapons all have a faster TTK than a Deci vs a MAX... and, um, camera-guided mode? You are thinking the Phoenix, not the Deci. The Deci's "camera" mode is still dumb fire... you just can see where it's going and detonate the missile if you are going to miss to at least get some splash damage. You can't guide it at all.

Both you and Queen side don't even seem to know how the Deci works. So me debating anything with you 2 is moot until you figure the game out.

QSC thinks the Deci is a 3 shot kill that needs to be 4 and you think you can guide the deci shots in camera mode for greater accuracy. Did either of you even bother to use this weapon in VR before posting???

I hate to sound like that and flame somewhat, but WTF are you guys thinking? The fact that you dont understand the Deci leads me to believe you can't understand/figure out how to use the MAX. No wonder you get owned quickly.

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 07:36 AM

Bad, please drop the "You must just suck" argument. It's been used time and time again and it doesn't ever go anywhere. If you want to continue with this please at least make an attempt to counter the arguments presented.

You have presented no argument other than "I cant kill infantry with an AI max" and "I cant live for 5 minutes". So the suggestion is to nerf anti-max weapons and lower the timer? And skill is no factor here? How can some people go on rampages and other die in seconds? SKILL and common sense.

How many times have you been fighting alamo style in a hopelessly zerged tower and seen someone suit up in a max and go outside? LOL Did the max suck? Should tanks, reavers, and everything else be nerfed to oblivion to account for idiocy?

So if you guys can�t figure out the basics then so be it. You can sit here to your hearts content and rant about how max units need to be powerful enough to compensate for the lack of intelligent field applications. Fortunately the developers know better than things will stay as they should. You can�t design a game and constantly cater to the least common denominator.

Veteran

2004-02-15, 07:57 AM

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 01:54 PM

Many, if not most of my Decimator kills are at range using the Decimator's large splash in camera mode. It's effective at short and long range. If it's effective at long range, the time to kill is modified by the lack of the need to close distance before firing. MCG has no such option.

I don't think that at all. I think that if you can detonate the missile mid-flight, turning a miss into a hit, then you have a new option.

Fair enough. Though splash damage from the Deci is less than a full hit. Personally, I don't really consider Decis a threat unless used indoors.

The way I play a MAX is...

AA MAX if on a tower I move around near the center of the roof never near the rails or on the "catwalks". This prevents most enemies from getting a good shot at me unless they are far away or an aircraft. With aircraft it's really a game of if they can get in killing range before I see them which is rare. If I see them, they either use full AB to run or die.

When guarding a base I never stand on the outer walls, I stand near the central area. Again, this makes me harder to hit by increasing my cover and the distance from the enemy. And again I'm in a prime spot to kill aircraft pestering my base.

In either a base or tower I keep a sharp eye out for AV weapons (the phoenix is the worst to deal with) and I don't hesitate to move if targeted. Also, I keep an eye out for Liberators and make sure I don't get bombed to oblivion.

What I don't do is stand on ground level or near an edge where infantry can deci and vehicles can blast me at close range. Unless your base has a shield module. In which case standing on ground level near a door can be a very good place to be.

As a AI MAX in a tower the trick is to stand at the top of a turn in a staircase away from walls and far enough over so that someone coming up the stairs can't see you. From this position a Deci infantry only gets 1 shot on you assuming he has the Deci in hand... or has the deci holstered... if not... dead infantry because if he trys to fight you will splatter him and if he tries to run you will splatter him... just a slight turn and you can track him up the next flight of stairs and a slight strafe to the side to track him down the stairs... it's brutal. Audio Amp and or 3rd person perspective are needed for this... People get spanked because 1. They fail to use cover by proper positioning while letting the enemy use cover. 2. they try and give chase to the faster infantry... this is never a good idea unless you are despirately trying to defend the spawn or CC.

A similar tactic works well in bases. Use the long hallways to your advantage. With Lattice benefits and or Audio Amp you should make quick work of any infantry headed your way. Usually, unless they know I'm there they are dead before they can equip the deci... and if they shoot at me with any other weapon... pffft! Dead.

What you can not do in a MAX is pretend you are invulnerable and charge vehicles or attack areas where infantry can have easy cover. Make them come to you.

Finally, don't try to lone wolf it unless you absilutely need to. A few MAX units in an infantry squad can be devistating... with engineering support and HA to kill Deci troops you are a GOD.

Ok, now really finally... never waste your time with any AV MAX. Never waste your time with TR MAX units except the Burster AA MAX. The Pounder is only good for doorway spamming and getting lots of grief. IMHO the best 4 MAX units in the game are in order are 1. VS AA MAX 2. VS AI MAX 3. NC AA MAX 4. NC AI MAX.

Also, I'm sorry about the hostile sounding posts earlier... apparently I'm a mean drunk :) Vet, you handled yourself well with your reply... thanks.

Warborn

2004-02-15, 02:21 PM

tactics stuff

It's not a question of tactics. I don't care who you are or what you do in a MAX, eventually you will find yourself against a Surgile with a Decimator and you will get hit at least once. Decimators are not difficult to aim, and MAXs are big, slow targets. If you find yourself against two or even three infantry and more than one has a Decimator, unless you're a Vanu MAX, you're dead. That's all there is to it. Two infantry with a Decimator = one pooched MAX. You can't put out enough rounds to stop separate fast-moving targets who're carrying what might as well be a little nuke in their shoulder aimed at you. And that is the root of this argument, which I sincerely hope you do not dispute as being inaccurate.

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 04:10 PM

It's not a question of tactics. I don't care who you are or what you do in a MAX, eventually you will find yourself against a Surgile with a Decimator and you will get hit at least once. Decimators are not difficult to aim, and MAXs are big, slow targets. If you find yourself against two or even three infantry and more than one has a Decimator, unless you're a Vanu MAX, you're dead. That's all there is to it. Two infantry with a Decimator = one pooched MAX. You can't put out enough rounds to stop separate fast-moving targets who're carrying what might as well be a little nuke in their shoulder aimed at you. And that is the root of this argument, which I sincerely hope you do not dispute as being inaccurate.

When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.

In your example you are taking about 1 MAX vs a TEAM of infantry... IMHO the team should win and when 1v1 the MAX should win and that is exactly the situation as it currently stands. Now, with team numbers being even... say 1 MAX and 1 HA infantry vs 2 deci infantry... my cash is on the MAX/HA team to win over and over and over...

Angel_of_Death

2004-02-15, 04:30 PM

Warborn

2004-02-15, 04:45 PM

When dueling on Markov with some of the top players on that server someone thought it would be funny to pit a NC Scatter MAX against infantry in a 1v1 duel. The MAX won every single time. You are superior to infantry in every way with the exception of being unable to med/eng/hack. So inherently a MAX requires support and is not a lone wolf unit by design.

In your example you are taking about 1 MAX vs a TEAM of infantry... IMHO the team should win and when 1v1 the MAX should win and that is exactly the situation as it currently stands. Now, with team numbers being even... say 1 MAX and 1 HA infantry vs 2 deci infantry... my cash is on the MAX/HA team to win over and over and over...

1 AI MAX vs 1 infantry guy with a Decimator and, yes, most of the time the MAX will win, but unless the infantry guy is afflicted with Down's Syndrome, the MAX will be eating a Decimator before the infantry guy dies. Depending on the environment, it's very possible for the MAX to lose because of the terrain or building design preventing him from getting more than a glimpse of the infantry guy as he pops out of cover to stick another Decimator round into him.

And, 2 Decimator infantry guys vs 1 AI MAX = guarenteed death for the AI MAX. Unless the infantry guys suck, you're screwed. You will die.

In your final example of 1 MAX and a HA guy vs 2 guys with Decimators, if the 2 guys with Decimators have HA, I'd give it a 50/50. The MAX will be killed almost immidiately, that's a given, but from there it's up in the air. Suffice to say, the MAX will not decide that battle, the HA will. The HA always does. MAXs are just free kills and the occassional annoynace to allow HA infantry to operate a bit more effectively. All that for a five minute timer and no utility is a joke. In any situation except when you're dealing with aircraft, as AA MAXs are good, a HA Surgile or even HA RExo is more decisive than a MAX. They can tear up infantry far better than MAXs, are self-sufficient/able to revive the dead in some cases, and have better survivability due to their mobility and overall lack of a major Achilles heel, as MAXs have with Decimators. I don't care how good you are with an AI MAX, you can almost always get more kills and stay in the field longer if you're playing HA infantry.

Everytime I see a MAX, I think to myself "free kill", unless I get rear-ended.

It always feels like a race to see who can pull out their Deci the fastest to get the kill. If they come from the roof one or two guys may get surprised and be killed, but otherwise I welcome the sight of a MAX indoors, because I know who'll be walking away from the fight.

Happy lil Elf

2004-02-15, 07:14 PM

You have presented no argument other than "I cant kill infantry with an AI max" and "I cant live for 5 minutes". So the suggestion is to nerf anti-max weapons and lower the timer? And skill is no factor here? How can some people go on rampages and other die in seconds? SKILL and common sense.

Bullshit. However I really don't feel like holding your hand and walking you though the entire thread so you know what? Sure Ash, that's all anyone has said. You're right. Now that you've obviously won the debate with your unassailable "you guys just suck" argument, stop talking.

Gigabein

2004-02-15, 07:39 PM

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 09:28 PM

Bullshit. However I really don't feel like holding your hand and walking you though the entire thread so you know what? Sure Ash, that's all anyone has said. You're right. Now that you've obviously won the debate with your unassailable "you guys just suck" argument, stop talking.

This thread is about the MAX timer... and how people can't figure out how to survive more than 5 min in a MAX. The Deci got dragged into this as the MAX nemesis.

And yet, 38% of the players in the game have MAX certifications... and I see them all the time on the field of battle. Seems to me they are effective enough for people to use them. What else do you want?

If you make maxes even easier to use and even more available it will turn PlanetSide into MAXside. It already almost is with MAX crash teams swarming all over Markov. 40 MAX units and a single hacker can break a seige. You wanna reduce that number to 30? 20? 10? 1?

Gimme a break.

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 09:38 PM

In your story, the only reason the MAX won is because of the shield. And pending on where the fight is taken, the infantry could win against an NC MAX, 1v1. MAXs are not feared as they are supposed to be, either Decis and AV should do less to MAXs, or MAXs armor should be buffed. Everytime I see a MAX, I think to myself "free kill", unless I get rear-ended.

So the only reason in your mind that the max won is because of a max ability? I'm sorry, but max abilities are part of the max, so that's gotta count. Actually, the max won every time because the deci never made it to shot #2.

If max units were not so cheap in cert cost per effectiveness I might see some of your points... but a 2 cert point AA max xan completely own a 4 cert air calvery over and over and over again. And an AI MAX have beat any infantry combo out there... since about 51% of the players out there have SA (we will assume they ALL ALWAYS have a deci handy) this means that 50% of the infantry you face are easy azz kills that can't fight back.

So where are you really going with this argument? 50% free kills is not enough? Want that boosted to 60%? 70%? 80%? 90% What will make you happy? When will the MAX be easy enough for you to use it?

Dharkbayne

2004-02-15, 09:45 PM

Buff MAX amor to 1k. Then it will be feared.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-15, 10:00 PM

Buff MAX amor to 1k. Then it will be feared.
I agree. Not the AA MAXs tho. Reason I say that though is because AA MAXs are lethal and have a nice niche. AA MAXs are working as intended IMO. The AV MAX is the worst and the AI MAXs is worse than any HA Rexo in all situations.

On Saturday I drove to a tower in a Marauder, jumped out, hacked the door, killed 2 people on the way to the CC, switched to 3rd person, killed 2 more coming up, killed a MAX with a Deci that came from the roof, killed a cloaker and when some friendlies got the spawn room camped, I granny hacked the tower. The reason I was able to do that? I had my own Engineer repiring, my own cloaker hacking, and my own Adv Medic healing me? Nope, Eng, Med, HA, SA. Now thats fucking Rambo. The MAX that came from the roof? yeah he got owned just as fast as the cloaker. Ballanced? Not a fucking chance. But hey, maybe the Devs will consider these types of situations and MAXs wont continue to be a joke (non-AA MAXs)

BadAsh

2004-02-15, 11:03 PM

I agree. Not the AA MAXs tho. Reason I say that though is because AA MAXs are lethal and have a nice niche. AA MAXs are working as intended IMO. The AV MAX is the worst and the AI MAXs is worse than any HA Rexo in all situations.

On Saturday I drove to a tower in a Marauder, jumped out, hacked the door, killed 2 people on the way to the CC, switched to 3rd person, killed 2 more coming up, killed a MAX with a Deci that came from the roof, killed a cloaker and when some friendlies got the spawn room camped, I granny hacked the tower. The reason I was able to do that? I had my own Engineer repiring, my own cloaker hacking, and my own Adv Medic healing me? Nope, Eng, Med, HA, SA. Now thats fucking Rambo. The MAX that came from the roof? yeah he got owned just as fast as the cloaker. Ballanced? Not a fucking chance. But hey, maybe the Devs will consider these types of situations and MAXs wont continue to be a joke (non-AA MAXs)

You:

Marauder: 3 certs
Rexo: 3 certs
MA: 2 certs
HA: 4 certs
SA: 3 certs
Med: 3 certs
Eng: 3 certs

Total: 21 BR 18 min to have this

MAX:

MAX: 2 certs (I'm assuming 2 certs cuz only an AA max should be on the roof) BR 1 required to have this.

And you really think the AA MAX should have spattered you with no risk?

Also, I'm sure you faught these guys 1 maybe 2 at a time not all at once. Not too rambo there if you ask me. For your 21 certs you earned the capability to pull this off, no guarantees though... that cloaker could have boomered you or one of those 4 infantry could have killed you... I mean their potential to rambo was no greater than yours... one of them could have defended off 6 or so attackers in this manner... So are you making the point that max units need a buff? CLoakers need a buff? Or that infantry should be limited to 2 kills before self destructing?

Spee

2004-02-15, 11:16 PM

Or that infantry should be limited to 2 kills before self destructing?

GODJOEY would explode at his desk.

Seer

2004-02-15, 11:50 PM

BadAsh, if you're assuming that a person with a high br deserves to stand up against units that are designed to counter him, you're missing the point.

The game is about unit counters. Anti infantry maxes should lay waste to infantry no matter how high their BR is or how many support certs they happen to have at the time. For this ability they trade everything.

This is why I freak out in other threads when people complain about how infantry haven't got a chance against reavers, infantry haven't got a chance against tanks, etc. That is as it should be, and an anti infantry max, while not a tank, should be a formidable anti infantry platform. It's not. And this is because of the decimator.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-15, 11:56 PM

CERTS ARE USLESS WHEN COMPARING MAX SUIT AND INFANTRY
one more time in case you missed it:
CERTS ARE USLESS WHEN COMPARING MAX SUIT AND INFANTRY
Its as retarded as saying that a Tank is 3 certs so, Infantry should be able to own a tank. Even tho the reasons are obvious I will let you in on it since it has escaped you this entire 5 page thread:

A guy may be battle rank 20 and have adv hacking, adv med, CE, and various vehicles or SA, HA, MA, AV, Rexo..etc, but even though he may have all those certs when he is in his MAX suit, he cannot:

bail out of the suit
drive a vehicle
gun for a vehicle
ride in vehicles (except sundy/gal)
repair themselves
repair anyone else
repair any object
heal someone else
rez
hack entry doors
hack consoles
hack lockers
hack vehicles
gain access to MAX suit from locker
gain access to MAX suit from AMS
and last but not least, they get 5 minute timers as well as moving extremely slowly.

Are you starting to get it yet? no? all those negatives are supposed to equal this positive:

Killing Machine

Except they are not killing machines, they are fucking jokes. They are not the Frontline, they are not the Rear. The only thing they actually can do is Anti-aircraft and they only reason they can do this is because they are not within range of the enemy 90% of the time. The fact of the matter is a MAX is as easy to kill as a cloaker.

Boost the armor or tweak the Deci where it takes 4 shots (or 5) to kill a MAX

Angel_of_Death

2004-02-15, 11:58 PM

They are killing machines though...

until you meet a deci

Seer

2004-02-16, 12:12 AM

Or until you go outside and get owned three ways from sunday by every yahoo with something bigger than a pistol.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-16, 12:12 AM

They are killing machines though...
Maybe AA MAXs are but I actually think those are balanced. I can kill more enemies as a HA, SA, Rexo than I can as an AI MAX, and I can do all that and not need to beg someone to repair me, and can drive and gun vehicles

Warborn

2004-02-16, 12:54 AM

This thread is about the MAX timer... and how people can't figure out how to survive more than 5 min in a MAX. The Deci got dragged into this as the MAX nemesis.

This thread was originally about how incredibly effective Decimators are against MAXs, but I edited it because I felt I was being presumptuous thinking that perhaps the devs want AI MAXs to be paltry against infantry, which is why I instead shifted it to lessening the restrictions MAXs have. I am glad the thread evolved into this discussion, though, as it coincides with my opinion more.

And yet, 38% of the players in the game have MAX certifications... and I see them all the time on the field of battle. Seems to me they are effective enough for people to use them. What else do you want?

I see AA MAXs all the time, because AA MAXs are good. They're the best way to kill Reavers outside a vehicle. It's not surprising 38% have them, if indeed that number is accurate.

If you make maxes even easier to use and even more available it will turn PlanetSide into MAXside. It already almost is with MAX crash teams swarming all over Markov. 40 MAX units and a single hacker can break a seige. You wanna reduce that number to 30? 20? 10? 1?

That's a pretty worst-case scenario, 40 MAXs and a lone hacker. If that's how you want to look at it, 20 tanks can completely pin down a base. 30 Reavers could tear the hell out of almost any ground force. 50 HA Surgiles with Decimators could own any base out there. And so on and so forth. Realistically, you won't get 40 people in a MAX suit attacking a single base at the same time, so I don't see the value in citing it in your defense.

I'll tell you this much, though, 40 MAXs against 40 Surgiles with Decimators is a done deal. Pack your bags, MAXs, wars over for you.

BadAsh

2004-02-16, 01:22 AM

That's a pretty worst-case scenario, 40 MAXs and a lone hacker. If that's how you want to look at it, 20 tanks can completely pin down a base. 30 Reavers could tear the hell out of almost any ground force. 50 HA Surgiles with Decimators could own any base out there. And so on and so forth. Realistically, you won't get 40 people in a MAX suit attacking a single base at the same time, so I don't see the value in citing it in your defense.

This happens all the time on Markov. I guess, not being from that server, you have never seen one of EVILPIGS MAX crash teams... they all gather in the base tower and charge on queue... battle over.

Veteran

2004-02-16, 01:33 AM

I guess Decimator will have to be pried out of the cold, dead hands of those who love the easy power it gives.

Best work on that grip.

BadAsh

2004-02-16, 03:07 AM

I guess Decimator will have to be pried out of the cold, dead hands of those who love the easy power it gives.

Best work on that grip.

Not one of my characters has SA. I've used it in the past, but I prefer AV.

All I want to avoid is the situation where a MAX can be a complete substitute for skill. Just because you have an AI MAX should not mean you are guaranteed wins against infantry.

IMHO there are already too many damn MAX units running around. It's very difficult to have a good, knock down, infantry fight without someone grabbing a MAX and causing the battle to turn into "He who weapon switches the fastest wins"... L A M E...

IMHO the game would be much getter off without any MAX units... but, that's just not going to happen so...

What you guys are suggesting will make this worse... many people don't use max units because they suck at them. Make the MAX even more powerful and then every goober and his drooling cousin will have one. Think it's hard to take that tower guarded by 6 MAX units and 12 infantry? Imagine 18 instantly replacable even more powerful MAX units... have fun in there...

As it stands the MAX Unit's true power is a key element of a squad or platoon. They are not designed to lone wolf or rambo, but they do give a squad the armor and firepower to blast through enemy defenses.

Making the MAX more powerful or less precious of a resource will change that balance... I dont want to see PS break down into 9 MAX and 1 door opener squads. The only counter would be tanks or your own MAX horde. :(

Warborn

2004-02-16, 03:32 AM

As it stands the MAX Unit's true power is a key element of a squad or platoon. They are not designed to lone wolf or rambo, but they do give a squad the armor and firepower to blast through enemy defenses.

Firepower is HA. MAXs don't get anywhere close to the number of kills a guy with HA can get. AI MAXs are, right now, virtually useless unless you're a low BR and can't afford a good HA loadout (not surprising that most non-AA MAXs have low-BR colors then, is it?). The only reason a 40 man MAX team would win is because there simply aren't enough Decimators in some random zerg group to account for all of them. They win by surprising the enemy with something they aren't prepared for, and that's all. They do not win because MAXs are exceptionally good. In fact, were they all to attack at once, they'd be successful not only because 40 MAXs is totally unexpected, but because 40 guys at any one place during a random zerg will cause the line to bend if not break. 40 HA Surgiles attacking at once would definitely have far more success than 40 MAXs, but 40 MAXs is more fun for a gimmick I'm sure.

IMHO there are already too many damn MAX units running around. It's very difficult to have a good, knock down, infantry fight without someone grabbing a MAX and causing the battle to turn into "He who weapon switches the fastest wins"... L A M E...

I find that very hard to believe. Most fights are done between HA infantry with no AI/AV MAXs present. TR MAXs like to spam from a distance (God I hope the patch fixes that), but otherwise MAXs are hardly the focus of fights, the HA infantry is.

Making the MAX more powerful or less precious of a resource will change that balance... I dont want to see PS break down into 9 MAX and 1 door opener squads. The only counter would be tanks or your own MAX horde.

The counter would be Decimators, AV, and your own MAXs. And when you kill them you can look forward to them waiting for their timer to end. Again, we're not asking for MAXs to be virtually invulnerable to infantry. We don't want infantry to be useless against MAXs. At most I'd like to see AI/AV MAXs get a significant armor boost. It's hard to pinpoint a number, but they need to be able to endure far more than they can currently to be worth it. If I had to guess, I'd say probably in the neighborhood of 1000 armor, give or take a hundred. At this point they are killed way too quickly in fights, and that needs to change.

AA MAXs do their job well and I think they're fine, although I do think that maybe Reaver rockets should have a smaller blast, but that's another topic altogether.

Dharkbayne

2004-02-16, 04:06 AM

A. Make it so you can get out of the MAX, you can't get back in, and you only have the spawn equipment

2. 1k armor, atleast

III. BUFF THE DAMN AV MAXES. SERIOUSLY.

D. Quit nerfing shit. Buff other things up to par, don't take everything down.

Fenrys

2004-02-16, 04:55 AM

This happens all the time on Markov. I guess, not being from that server, you have never seen one of EVILPIGS MAX crash teams... they all gather in the base tower and charge on queue... battle over.

I'm a more-or-less full time member of the Devil Dog's MCT on Markov (when I'm not playing a VS on Emerald). We spend most of our time running and waiting and get maybe 5% of the # of kills that we could get solo, but 95% of the time wherever we crash gets its tubes knocked down in under 1 minute. Meaning we get plenty of base Cap xp.

Most of our playtime is wasted just getting set up, but on the occasions that we do see actual combat, anything not in a MAX suit is just another "squishy" to roll over. We might die once or twice per continent.

Let me say that again, since its fairly important.

By the time a continent has changed colors from solid purple/red to solid blue, each member of the MCT has died maybe twice if that.

When there is only 1 squad or less, things change, but when you get 20+ MAXs to turn on their shields and ignore everything until they've run into to the spawn room, those tubes ARE going down. The only way to get 'em back up is to bumrush the waiting MCT . . . wich gives the squishies on our team a chance to get inside the base.

However, there are still nuts that we can't crack. The VS give us trouble with all their MAX's, and the TR sometimes camp their own spawn rooms with decimators at the ready.

On Emerald there is often a full Reaver-only platoon that the VS run, but it is not NEARLY as effective. Our 30 reavers have been turned away by 5 skyguards.

BadAsh

2004-02-16, 05:41 AM

Let me say that again, since its fairly important.

By the time a continent has changed colors from solid purple/red to solid blue, each member of the MCT has died maybe twice if that.

When there is only 1 squad or less, things change, but when you get 20+ MAXs to turn on their shields and ignore everything until they've run into to the spawn room, those tubes ARE going down. The only way to get 'em back up is to bumrush the waiting MCT . . . wich gives the squishies on our team a chance to get inside the base.

However, there are still nuts that we can't crack. The VS give us trouble with all their MAX's, and the TR sometimes camp their own spawn rooms with decimators at the ready.

On Emerald there is often a full Reaver-only platoon that the VS run, but it is not NEARLY as effective. Our 30 reavers have been turned away by 5 skyguards.

I hear ya man and I've seen this with my own eyes. It's brutal. Either you quickly take the base OR reduce the enemy to defending from their own spawn. Soon you control the CC and Gen and everything else just from MAX pressure.

Emerald seems much less organized than Markov. Markov has the Reaver platoons, I've been part of a 5 Galaxy drop... yes, that's 60 guys raining down on an enemy base, EVILPIGS MAX Crash teams - also adopted by the VS, and REDX's crushing Prowler/Skyguard armor columns. You just don't see this on Emerald.

As part of a team MAX units have a LONG lifespan. Making them more powerful would be rediculas.

Let's take the example suggestion here... increase MAX armor to 1,000. At 650 it takes 7 striker hits... now it would take 11... that's 2 full clips +1 hit assuming you don't miss... 7 is already a joke.

Nerfing the Deci to require 4 hits... MAX Crash teams will own even harder... the TR will have NO defense... so even the feeble spawn room deci defending won't work... Now MCT MAX players can expect to take a whole cont (12+) bases without dying once. Yeah, that's balance and fairness...

Dyentious

2004-02-16, 06:21 AM

Veteran

2004-02-16, 06:24 AM

Decimator is effective when used by a lone trooper. No need to use it in teams, or to have a plan other than "own any MAX in sight".

Cheese I says.

Candle

2004-02-16, 06:50 AM

I think that there is an easy solution:

there are two types of armour: vehicule and infantry. MAX units have vehicule armour. Give the MAX infaltry armour, and the deci will do considerably less damage to a MAX, you could even buff the deci damage so that it actually hurts a tank/etc. instead of tickling it.

This way, you increase the MAX efectiveness greatly with very little change, you'd see many more people certing MAX (Can I point out that AI MAX == 3 certs == rexo == MBT)

As VS, my alt is a uni-max/inf/adv hacking so I always have something to do wether its a cont. opening (no tower etc) or a full scale zerg (MAX) I rarely use my MAX in anything other than a zerg.

ChewyLSB

2004-02-16, 07:36 AM

Dyentious

2004-02-16, 09:47 AM

actually after seeing some video's on Eka's video website, i'm changing my stance on this issue heh.

Although I still say it's not the max that is underpowered, it's the deci that is overpowered. Surge is also one of the main culprits in this problem, as it is in many problems. I wish they would take out surge, but that is a whole other issue.

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

Fenrys

2004-02-16, 11:52 AM

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

Now THERE is a good idea. Make it aim like the Bolt Driver

Warborn

2004-02-16, 01:46 PM

Those last 2 posts just reinforce what I said before..

you might die a bunch whn you get in a MAX and go run out into the zerg without any strategy, but if you use it with a TEAM, in a PLAN, they are extremely powerful. The really don't need to be any more powerful jsut so you can kick ass without having to use your brain

So when you don't play with a team executing a plan you're playing without using your brain? That's high-larious.

Nerfing the Deci to require 4 hits... MAX Crash teams will own even harder... the TR will have NO defense... so even the feeble spawn room deci defending won't work... Now MCT MAX players can expect to take a whole cont (12+) bases without dying once. Yeah, that's balance and fairness...

So the MAX should be kept at its current pathetic level because when 40 guys get in a MAX and charge a base it's hard to stop them right now? Games aren't balanced on off-the-wall scenarios like that. Those sorts of occurrences are rare enough to the point that they deserve their own limitations to them, which I think could be done by simply having the zerg recognize and know how to respond to that kind of a tactic. Either way, it's not a point in your favor, because as I already said, they aren't successful because MAXs are so good at killing, they're successful because 40 MAXs with their shields on bumrushing the spawn tubes is not an everyday happening, and people can't react to it well at all.

BadAsh

2004-02-16, 07:26 PM

The biggest problem with your certs argument is that it's not valid. The devs stated, time and time again, this game isn't based on who's been playing for longer, it's based on who's better at an FPS. If a BR20 with a Sweeper runs at a BR4 wtih a Sweeper, it's going to come down who's better at FPS's.

In the context of this conversation that argument is completely valid. Veteran was making a point that infantry can Rambo and a MAX can not. In his example he mentioned having multiple weapons, med, eng, etc. You don�t start with those, you have to earn that versatility. To Rambo as Veteran mentioned requires a BR18. If you don�t have that cert selection you�d die. No Med? You�d run out of health. No eng? You�d soon have no armor. No Deci? Death by max (like 50% of the players experience day in and day out). Not to mention the cloaker kill which the mandatory Darklight implant is needed. You don�t get that at BR1.

So while your ability to aim may give you an edge against a higher BR rated character he will be more powerful in his versatility and implants. Can you still win? Sure, but you won�t yet be able to sustain yourself on the battlefield as well as he can.

BadAsh

2004-02-16, 07:51 PM

So the MAX should be kept at its current pathetic level because when 40 guys get in a MAX and charge a base it's hard to stop them right now? Games aren't balanced on off-the-wall scenarios like that. Those sorts of occurrences are rare enough to the point that they deserve their own limitations to them, which I think could be done by simply having the zerg recognize and know how to respond to that kind of a tactic. Either way, it's not a point in your favor, because as I already said, they aren't successful because MAXs are so good at killing, they're successful because 40 MAXs with their shields on bumrushing the spawn tubes is not an everyday happening, and people can't react to it well at all.

Warborn... Ok, here is my opinion and how I see things in regards to MAX units...

When I first piloted a Reaver I got killed 8 times before I got my first Reaver kill. I was a complete spaz at the controls and I did not yet know that the missile lock warning meant... run in full AB now! Eventually, I got the hang of it and now I frustrate AA MAX units by knowing their range and flying right outside of it. I typically get several kills each time I get in my Reaver. Usually, my Reaver is lost because I've run out of ammo and decide to just "hot drop" on an enemy tower or base rather than fly back for a reload. I rarely get shot down.

When I first tried the sniper rifle I completely sucked at it. I'm a former RTCW sniper and those sniper rifles are instant hits from across the map and there was no COF. So I missed a lot until I got the hang of it. I figured out where to snipe from, how to find targets, how to lead my shots, etc. After getting smoked by cloakers a few times I learned to counter even that. I got damn good at sniping and counter-cloaker measures.

When I first got into a MAX I got spanked for a while until I figured out how to use the various MAX units (AI and AA). Decis and vehicles spanked me as I charged into battle. In time I learned to be more cautious and pick my fights more wisely. Now I kick ass in my MAX units rather than the other way around.

In the beginning of each of these I could have asked for assistance in the form of buffs or nerfs....

Perhaps the Reaver should be made easier to fly, faster to avoid enemies, and have more armor to resist the near instant AA MAX kills.... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents...

Perhaps with the sniper rifle I could have suggested that the COF be removed to more easily hit moving targets, perhaps I could have asked for 1 shot kill capability because too many targets got hit once and ran off to heal, perhaps I could have asked for special cloaker detection to save me from cloakers... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents be they soft targets in the distance or a cloaker creeping behind me...

Perhaps if I have trouble using a MAX I could ask for nerfs to anti-max weapons or perhaps ask for more armor, speed, more firepower, etc... OR perhaps I could just learn to use what I have and develop the skill to take down my opponents...

In all 3 areas sniping, Reaver piloting, and MAX piloting I got spanked until I developed the skill necessary to use my equipment to my advantage. Now I kick ass without requiring game changes to deliver me the uber-sniper rifle, the uber-reaver, or the uber-max.

This is my opinion of course and I can see you disagree, that's fine. But, my opinion won't change. If I can figure out how to snipe, fly a Reaver, and pilot a max effectively then so can anyone else. FIN

Gigabein

2004-02-16, 08:42 PM

A deci can 2-shot any max with splash dmg. I've tested it, used it in the field and been the victim of it. I'm asking that it take 3 direct hits from a deci to kill a max. You can still kill a MAX with 1 tube... it will just give AI MAXes a more reasonable chance to survive his encounter with the surgile, audio-amped, peekaboo deci. And don't pretend they don't exist.

Hell, I'll compromise: 2 direct hits and 1 splash dmg. Remove the unimax cert too, if that will curb the flood of lemmings.

Visor

2004-02-16, 09:30 PM

Maxes are only usefull indoors because of the AV or reaver/tank even indoors they get killed by the deci way too many times.

I dont know why people use the MAX except in small fights where there probably wont be a Deci/AV user.

Warborn

2004-02-18, 03:21 AM

stuff about me being a bad MAX player and a whiner

I'm a sniper in PS virtually all of the time. I am not a long-term MAX player by any means and don't plan on doing anything with my MAX character beyond simply expanding my view of the game. I've no desire to play a MAX in the long run, and were MAXs to be buffed I, as a sniper, would suffer because of it. So if you think this is me asking for life to be easier, forget it. I'm asking for MAXs to get what I feel they need, despite the fact that I'll no longer by able to take them out with just a Decimator plus my bag of sniping tricks.

But, anyway, back to sniping. You said it yourself, sniping ain't easy. Do you see me making sniping posts asking for sniping to be easier? Have I ever asked for sniping to be easier, even when I just started and hadn't gotten the hang of it, or am I instead vehemently opposed to making sniping easier despite the obvious benefit I'd get from it? Don't assume I'm some whiney little crybaby, or a shitty player, because I'm neither, and I don't make posts which serve no purpose other than to vent my own frustration or make things easier for myself at the expense of the game's level of balance. If anything, this thread was inspired by the guilt I feel everytime I kick the hell out of an AI MAX with a Decimator and continue sniping while he endures his MAX timer.

To make it painfully obvious, I know MAXs die really quickly to infantry with Decimators, not because I die to them often when I play them, but because I'm the one killing them all the time when I'm not playing a MAX. The reason I picked up a MAX and toyed with it for a few weeks wasn't to guage how effective they are. I already know how effective they are, because I've played most facets of Planetside for an extended period since it was released, and have a pretty good grasp of how things work from virtually all angles, including extensive experience in various MAX-killer roles. The reason I picked up the MAX cert was because I know I'm a decent FPS player, and I wanted to feel whether it's as odious to be slaughtered by infantry as it feels like it would be after I massacre a MAX with my Decimator while in my sniper loadout. And I guess the arrogant part of me wanted to see if I could do it better than the MAXs I kill on a regular basis, and maybe break the trend somehow. I certainly don't consider myself a bad MAX player by any means, but I do better realize how laden with unnecessary restrictions compared to their actual ability MAXs are after having played one for a while. Going from a 100% self-sufficient and very successful sniper to an entirely friend-dependent and flimsy MAX unit gave me a better understanding of why so few AI/AV MAXs are in existance. AI MAXs suck (though VS AI MAXs aren't so bad because of their jets), and I think I have enough experience on both sides of the picture to say that with absolute certainty.

So, in conclusion, if your only remaining defense is to criticize my ability as a player and patronize me as a person, I do indeed agree that your role in the discussion at an end. This isn't a question of how good the numerous people who've echoed my thoughts in this thread are. Judging by your stats you're obviously no Planetside god, and I think you're overextending your area of expertise by telling us that MAXs aren't bad, we're just doing it wrong.

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 01:21 PM

Onizuka-GTO

2004-02-18, 01:28 PM

Maybe they should make it so you have to be crouched for a full second before shooting.. after all it's a shoulder mounted rocket launcher, people don't just walk around shootin those things like an mp5

I agree with that, it sounds like a wonderful idea.

TheN00b

2004-02-18, 02:07 PM

Listen, I'm not criticizing anyone, and I hope I don't get flamed for this, but what happens if the Deci is nerfed? I mean, despite what is happening right now, i.e. MAXes being easily Decied by infantry, MAXes really are quite powerful, atleast in terms of infantry combat. If the Deci is nerfed, AI MAXes would have the possibility of getting huge amounts of kills during indoor combat. The problem with having AV weapons as of now be fairly worthless indoors is that the Deci is really the only counter to AI MAXes. I'm really unsure about taking that away.
Now, as for the AV MAX, I think it should be buffed. I've been NC for quite a while, have played with the Falcon and against the Dual Cycler and Comet quite extensively, and I find them mildly useless. They can fire quite a few shots, sure, but the shots seem to barely affect main battle tanks and, to a lesser exten, buggies as well. I think that all AV MAXes' weapons should recieve a substantial buff for AV damage, while keeping their AI damage the same.

Warborn

2004-02-18, 02:44 PM

Warborn,

I�m sorry if you feel my last post was directed at you specifically. It�s just how I feel about this issue hence my stressing that it�s just my opinion based on my personal experience with the game. I never called your sniping ability into question, I was referring to my experiences in sniping, piloting, and MAX usage.

You implied that I was still wet around the ears and needed to give it more time before I could understand the game enough to know that I'm wrong. I realize you didn't comment directly on my ability at any one thing specific.

MAX units are dependant upon support by intentional design. They can�t heal, repair, or even hack. I can�t think of any bigger hint the developers could have put into the design that could make this design decision any more obvious. MAX units were never intended to solo. As part of an integrated team the MAX is devastating. Making the MAX more powerful so that it can solo would make it exponentially more powerful in a group. This would be much more powerful than intended and would force more MAX units into the field because that would be the only countermeasure. If you are using a piece of equipment for something other than it was intended you can�t expect optimal results. As I�ve stated before if you have a few MAX units in your squad you have a tremendous advantage over a squad that does not have any MAX units. This is how they were intended to be used and this is how they shine. Any other use is folly.

MAXs are not devastating as part of a team. MAXs are not devastating, period. If we're going to get into repeating the same old rhetoric then let's just call our discourse closed and move on to other peoples' opinions on this.

Listen, I'm not criticizing anyone, and I hope I don't get flamed for this, but what happens if the Deci is nerfed? I mean, despite what is happening right now, i.e. MAXes being easily Decied by infantry, MAXes really are quite powerful, atleast in terms of infantry combat. If the Deci is nerfed, AI MAXes would have the possibility of getting huge amounts of kills during indoor combat. The problem with having AV weapons as of now be fairly worthless indoors is that the Deci is really the only counter to AI MAXes. I'm really unsure about taking that away.

How are AV weapons worthless indoors? You can't kill an AI MAX with them before they kill you, but isn't that how it's suppose to work?

Also, MAXs get hardly any kills now. I spend a lot of time watching kill spam, as I like to see the names of the people I'm shooting, and I hardly ever see back-to-back MAX kills. Instead, I see a half-dozen people dying to a Jackhammer, or the MCG, or the Lasher. HA infantry are the ones who own other infantry indoors, not AI MAXs, And that's a fact. And based on my experience, HA infantry, if armed with a Decimator, will smoke a MAX too should he get in the way.

So, if the Decimator were nerfed, the result would be a longer lifespam on MAXs. Enough to make up for their weaknesses? Maybe, especially if it's the crouch-to-fire thing, as I think that's a pretty good idea. But Decimators are not the only things that damage MAXs, and you wouldn't be losing the only counter you have to MAXs. Last time I checked, the Lancer fires indoors, and the Striker and Phoenix both have dumbfire modes. Are they as good as Decimators? No. But they certainly do damage to them, just as armor piercing (aka. those useless yellow things) bullets do.

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 04:02 PM

MAXs are not devastating as part of a team. MAXs are not devastating, period. If we're going to get into repeating the same old rhetoric then let's just call our discourse closed and move on to other peoples' opinions on this.

I agree that this is our primary difference in this discussion. What you consider as me �repeating the same old rhetoric� I consider you as �ignoring the obvious�.

To me it�s obvious that a MAX was not designed to solo but to be part of a team. Being unable to heal, repair, or hack you require support and therefore can not effectively solo. To me that�s obvious, to you it�s just my �rhetoric�. But, whatever.

Just last night the NC pulled a classic maneuver with a single integrated Infantry/MAX squad. They dropped to a rear Tech plant and dropped the generator. The team consisting or 7 heavy infantry (with adv meds and engineering certs amongst them) and 3 NC AI Scatter MAX (2 dropped and 1 was hacked at a terminal) units proceeded to hold the generator area for a substantial period of time. As the defenders trickled back in from the front lines they were slaughtered wholesale by the MAX units.

Imagine you step into a room with your deci at the ready and you shoot one of the MAX units and then you get shredded. By the time you respawn that MAX is fully repaired and even if he was not repaired how would you know which one to hit again? If you run in with HA at the ready the MAX units destroy you very quickly. If you run in with a Deci you take lots of damage getting 1 shot off. If you survive the first shot and manage to find cover the infantry will butcher you. All the defenders need to do is watch what weapon the attacker comes in with and use their infantry or MAX units accordingly. It�s simple, effective, and brutal.

Anyway, defenders continued to trickle back to defend the base and get the generator back online. After about 10 minutes of slaughter it was finally all over and we managed to get the generator back online. Chatting with a few of the NC guys congratulating them on a job well done I learned that they had a guy keeping a kill count. Their 10 man team got 97 kills before being forced out. This is the power of a MAX/Infantry Team vs. an unorganized �zerg�. They said that on TS they were cursing me, because on 2 occasions I waited for others to attack and ran a flank behind their MAX wall and managed to kill 3 of their adv meds the first time and the second time I managed to kill all 4 (part luck, part patience/skill). This doomed the survivors to attrition. If I had not done this, how much longer would this have gone on? Eventually I suppose they would have run out of ammo and supplies from the sheer killing�

This tactic can be used to guard a downed generator, protect one you don�t want taken down, defend a tower (I can�t even begin to count the seemingly eternal deadlocked tower sieges I�ve been in made possible by a few well placed MAX units with supporting infantry), defend a CC, defend an entrance to the base, etc. Reverse this and your team makes a very effective assault team. Just see the MCT�s on Markov for perfect examples of this. 20+ MAX units with a few support infantry spank bases by bum rushing the spawn rooms. Nine times out of ten and the base is lost. Simply repeat this tactic 12-17 times to take every single base on an entire continent. After it�s all said and done realize that each MAX was only a casualty 2-3 times on average. Having the power to be a front line shock trooper and conquer 12-17 bases and only die 3 times is absurdly powerful. Note the key terms in use here: TEAM and SUPPORT. MAX units require both by intentional design. Fail to take either into consideration and you will experience nothing but frustration.

TheN00b

2004-02-18, 05:42 PM

How are AV weapons worthless indoors? You can't kill an AI MAX with them before they kill you, but isn't that how it's suppose to work?

So, if the Decimator were nerfed, the result would be a longer lifespam on MAXs. Enough to make up for their weaknesses? Maybe, especially if it's the crouch-to-fire thing, as I think that's a pretty good idea. But Decimators are not the only things that damage MAXs, and you wouldn't be losing the only counter you have to MAXs. Last time I checked, the Lancer fires indoors, and the Striker and Phoenix both have dumbfire modes. Are they as good as Decimators? No. But they certainly do damage to them, just as armor piercing (aka. those useless yellow things) bullets do.

Oftentimes you probably won't be able to destroy very much at all of the attacking MAXes armor. Sure, the Pheonix dumbfire mode is moderately affective against MAXes indoors, but one shot is generally all you get before a quick death, because of the reload. The Striker and Lancer would probably have a much greater problem. As the Striker only currently deals a rather pitiful 75 damage, you could probably get off 1-2 dumbfires before you died, which still lets it wreck havoc on the rest of your friendlies. As for the Lancer, the lock-on time is too demanding, and the combination of having to dodge a MAXes shots and keep a Lancer locked on with any lag at all is quite difficult.

Also, MAXs get hardly any kills now. I spend a lot of time watching kill spam, as I like to see the names of the people I'm shooting, and I hardly ever see back-to-back MAX kills. Instead, I see a half-dozen people dying to a Jackhammer, or the MCG, or the Lasher. HA infantry are the ones who own other infantry indoors, not AI MAXs, And that's a fact. And based on my experience, HA infantry, if armed with a Decimator, will smoke a MAX too should he get in the way.

That may be true in a zerg, as the sheer number of infantry with Decimators and infantry probably easily overwhelm a MAX. However, rather than following the swarm, I often prefer getting in smaller Outfit squads, where we are the ones who start the skirmishes that eventually lead to Pop-Locked continents and zerg-on-zerg battles. Too us, with our small numbers and focus on support skills, the Decimator is quite critical, because a couple of MAXes can band together and sometimes succeed at taking, for example, the only tower on the Continent. Even with the Decimator, we can be overwhelmed: without it, there might be serious problems indoors.

Dyentious

2004-02-19, 03:57 AM

Just to emphasize how max units are really not all THAT underpowered (but maybe a little), i'd just like to share this scenario that happened tonight on Markov

TR and NC were battling it out on cyssor, and TR had the tower and an AMS, but NC were guarding tore REALLY well. We zerged and zerged, and continuously got nowhere. We were goin through the back door, but everybody would get waxed by the time they got to a certain point.

The one thing that we started doing differently that shifted the tide for us, was this:
We had 3 engineers and 2 or 3 maxes staying close together, and the engineers would repair the MAX's as they held a doorway down. While the max was holding hte doorway this gave the rest of the tr time to group up behind the max a bit without being wiped out, and then we proceeded further into the base yet again untill we took some heavy damage and lost some troops. So the engineers repaired the barely alive MAX's yet again, and the grunts and MAX's that had died had time to get back to the point we were at as we repaired and held the doorways.

So basically keeping hte MAX's alive was the key to winning the base for that scenario. The MAX's would have never been able to do crap if it hadn't been because of the engineers, but when they are repaired inside the fight they are powerhouses.

I still believe the deci should have to be crouched for a full second though, and I agree that this would make it a LOT harder to kill a MAX indoors, but then again, it's probably about time they fixed the crap damage that armor piercing bullets do anyway. Not to make em too much more powerful, but just a tad. People also seem to forget that the punisher and thumper also do some nice damage to MAX's if you hit them directly.

Dharkbayne

2004-02-19, 04:11 AM

Deci kills in two hits, 2 people in a hallway can kill you almost instantly, since you have no room to dodge.

Ait'al

2004-02-19, 04:47 AM

What would a jammer grenade do to it?

ChewyLSB

2004-02-19, 07:52 AM

Jammer Grenades disable the MAX's special abilities, a TR can't anchor for awhile, and NC and VS have their timers reset.

Warborn

2004-02-19, 10:15 PM

I still believe the deci should have to be crouched for a full second though, and I agree that this would make it a LOT harder to kill a MAX indoors, but then again, it's probably about time they fixed the crap damage that armor piercing bullets do anyway. Not to make em too much more powerful, but just a tad. People also seem to forget that the punisher and thumper also do some nice damage to MAX's if you hit them directly.

To reply to the stuff you said before this quote, MAXs are reasonable in some situations, yes. It's the more common scenarios, not the few and far between ones, that should be used to assess the value of a MAX, however.

Now, in response to the above quote, yes, that kind of a change for Decimators might be good. Really though, they should be given some other kind of role, and AP bullets be enhanced. AV weapons plus better AP bullets with no Decimators would be a reasonable change, I think. Were the Decimator to be kept as a dumb-fire anti-armor warhead, but have that kind of a restriction on it, I doubt it would be popular at all anymore.