Your thoughts on the "Ammo" Patch? (2-18-4) [Archive]

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 07:40 PM

Simply because every vanu and thier mother has picked it up and are firing it at everything.

Yes, jimmey. A lasher barrage from 10+ users WILL kill most things. Stop crying Nerf.

Probably so :) I rather suspect that people complaining about the Lasher have never used it before. It's harder to kill with by far than the Jack or MCG. Besises by it's very name the Lasher is for spamming. In 1v1 fights the enemy used to just rush and then not have to deal with lashing damage. This happens to be optimal range for most weapons anyway particularly the other HA (Jack and MCG love "in your face" combat).

In a duel a freaking Punisher would win 4 out of 5 fights with a Lasher... try that against any other HA and it's the Punisher that gets punished... now with CQB lashing perhaps that will fare differently :)

Also, with other HA you have enough ammo to kill 2-3 opponents before having to reload. Upping the lasher clip size was a step in the right direction. Typically, if you have a lasher at short to meduim range it would take the whole clip to kill any opponent that was not standing completely still. The slow orbs are easy to avoid by side stepping. And with the Rexo buff, lashing damage is just not that effective against them so you need to score direct hits.

I'll be testing this weapon extensively when I get home tonight. I can't wait :) Who, knows, after tonight I might be in love with all 3 HA :)

Oh, and the Jack needed it's mini-nerf. Sorry, but the quad-shot was lame. Also, you only needed 2 boxes of shells in your inventory where all other HA needed 4 or more just to kill the same amount of enemies, so that balance tweak was needed too.

Sounds like a fair patch to me.

Rbstr

2004-02-18, 07:44 PM

I beg to differ the lasher kills very fast with direct hits, far before you can kill a rexo with a sweeper.

Buyt his change was needed, i'm not crying nerf.

Spee

2004-02-18, 07:46 PM

It's harder to kill with by far than the Jack or MCG.

Id have to beg to differ. Maybe Im good with it or something, But I get FAR more kills/run then I do with the Jack/MCG.

One day i got 70 kills in about 90 mins of playing, and that was pre-buff. Lasher = pwnage.

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 07:49 PM

I beg to differ the lasher kills very fast with direct hits, far before you can kill a rexo with a sweeper.

Buyt his change was needed, i'm not crying nerf.

I agree, the problem is with getting direct hits... Lasher Orbs = slow...

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 07:53 PM

Id have to beg to differ. Maybe Im good with it or something, But I get FAR more kills/run then I do with the Jack/MCG.

One day i got 70 kills in about 90 mins of playing, and that was pre-buff. Lasher = pwnage.

I agree here too. It strictly depends on how you use the weapon... if you are guarding or attacking down a hallway you will own. But, try fighting a surgile outside in the open... you have to be very good at leading and predicting where your target will move. The other HA just don't have to worry about those nearly as much.

I'm very good with the Lasher too :) But, like with my TR character, I keep a locker with 16 Jacks for when you are in one of those "Can't beat the Jack" situations...

Black

2004-02-18, 07:55 PM

i wish they would bring the MCG up 200 bullets :p i run outa ammo all the time hehehe

Lithpope

2004-02-18, 07:56 PM

All I can say is whooohooo!!! :D

I logged on and had 45!!!! get that 45 Striker rounds in my inventory. Holy crap, I can drop a box of Striker ammo now and put something else there, and STILL fire My Stiker like crazy. Gonna have to tweak my favorites to include my newly aquired Deci though. Also, not check my Maruader but, will do that when I get home. From what I have seen, a good patch. :groovy:

BadAsh

2004-02-18, 08:12 PM

Seer

2004-02-18, 09:10 PM

It's a little unreal. The setup I've been in for a while is Thumper and Lancer. I kept all my certs and my ammo load skyrocketed. Personally I feel the ammo buff to SA was sorely needed, but the ammo buff to AV went a little overboard.

Doop

2004-02-18, 09:16 PM

It's a good patch. I love my Lasher even more now. =D And my Lancer. 54 rounds, baby.

Scorched_earth

2004-02-18, 09:51 PM

I've experienced as a vanu that the lancer is now perfect! But the lasher 25 cclip is what i wanted :o) and the faster reload is wowo :oD but the lasher effects has caused a shoot through doors bug? cause thats what i can do :oS
oh and ignore me im wasted

Lithpope

2004-02-18, 10:28 PM

I used to carry 40 striker rounds with one of my old builds :) Rexo+2 Strikers+6 ammo boxes :) Strictly a base wall defense build to help with AA.

/nod Badash, I have (now HAD) a similar setup in my favorites called "AV all the way" Nothing but Striker ammo in inventory, a Repeater in slot 1, a BANK in slot 3 and Two Strikers in my rifle slots. Was great for cross country hikes and dropped more than my share of Reavers/Skeeters/Threshers on cross country runs or supporting Armor.

Rbstr

2004-02-18, 10:34 PM

My pheonix has 27 round in my configs with them, but i think i'm gona redoo all my configs this friday, becaseu i don't use alot of my Favs and can do more things with them now

Acaila

2004-02-18, 10:53 PM

It is a load of crap saying that the Lasher was hard to hit directly with at < 5m. Nothing has changed, the decent players still hit directly, just the less skilled players are able to do some damage before they get their ass handed to them in cqb.

I was sitting in the gunners seat of my favourite Vanguard, driving along and there is a platoon of TR infantry coming up the road from SE Tore tower to Tore. I think "awww, how cute, they have death wish". Then I get a missile lock and nearly all of them have a Striker. Holy fuck, dead in 2 seconds flat after the warning. It was just like the good ol days, brought a tear to the eye :'(.

Heavygain

2004-02-18, 10:53 PM

Havent played it yet, but it looks good. It would be kickass if the MCG was sent up to 200 round clips.

Seer

2004-02-18, 11:58 PM

I was sitting in the gunners seat of my favourite Vanguard, driving along and there is a platoon of TR infantry coming up the road from SE Tore tower to Tore. I think "awww, how cute, they have death wish". Then I get a missile lock and nearly all of them have a Striker. Holy fuck, dead in 2 seconds flat after the warning. It was just like the good ol days, brought a tear to the eye :'(.

Hear that, Krisanth (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showpost.php?p=317996&postcount=40)?

321

2004-02-19, 12:03 AM

The patched rocked, there is not one thing in it that I don't like.

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 12:24 AM

It is a load of crap saying that the Lasher was hard to hit directly with at < 5m. Nothing has changed, the decent players still hit directly, just the less skilled players are able to do some damage before they get their ass handed to them in cqb.

Apparently you don't duel. Know why no one uses a Lasher in a duel? Because they get their asses handed to them. Players with a Punusher can consistantly beat down a Lasher in a duel. Good players will dodge and strafe in an irregular pattern and be very difficult to hit with every orb, with the MCG and JH it's much easier to hit in that setting... so, you miss a few times, they don't = Dead Lasher 90% of the time.

In the game under normal combat is where the Lasher shines. Rarely will you face someone 1v1 in the open when you see each other at the exact same time... like in a duel. So if you can hit them first you will usually win and the reverse is true. Then there are hallways... lovely lashable hallways... hehe :)

But to the thread topic spacifically:

This patch owns. I love it.

Scorched_earth

2004-02-19, 03:44 AM

lashers r amazin! just spam doors with 10 other men! They suck in bases cus u hit alot of ur ownguys!

Acaila

2004-02-19, 06:54 AM

Apparently you don't duel. Know why no one uses a Lasher in a duel? Because they get their asses handed to them. Players with a Punusher can consistantly beat down a Lasher in a duel. Good players will dodge and strafe in an irregular pattern and be very difficult to hit with every orb, with the MCG and JH it's much easier to hit in that setting... so, you miss a few times, they don't = Dead Lasher 90% of the time.

In the game under normal combat is where the Lasher shines. Rarely will you face someone 1v1 in the open when you see each other at the exact same time... like in a duel. So if you can hit them first you will usually win and the reverse is true. Then there are hallways... lovely lashable hallways... hehe :)

But to the thread topic spacifically:

This patch owns. I love it.
Thanks for the lecture on combat in PlanetSide, but you appear to have missed the point of my post entirely. Where did I mention dueling?

The point of my post is, if you can't hit someone with a Lasher at < 5m, you need a weapon with splash damage. The people who were good already got direct hits and killed well with it inside lash range, now it has been newbied up a little so everyone can at least inflict some damage with it at really close range. Lasher buff is rather small and won't really change how effective the weapon is in normal play to any large degree. Yes, normal play, duels are not normal play and are completely irrelevant in terms of balance as they always begin in a niche for a certain weapon.

Madcow

2004-02-19, 09:03 AM

Advanced (or Enhanced) Targetting not draining stamina is great. I can almost consider it a minor infil buff as that coupled with melee booster was guaranteeing a few people a bad night last night.
I thought the grenade changes were going in this patch? Guess not.
I've never seen so many Lancers and Lashers. Lashers are the absolute worst thing for infil as it's ridiculously easy to drop infil completely on accident just by spamming the damn thing, but it's still nice to see the rise in field use. People getting knifed and trying to use the Lancer on me, however, make me laugh. There were actually enough Lancers out there to do a number on the armor though, that was interesting.

BigFreak

2004-02-19, 09:43 AM

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 11:07 AM

Thanks for the lecture on combat in PlanetSide, but you appear to have missed the point of my post entirely. Where did I mention dueling?

Your original comment was...

It is a load of crap saying that the Lasher was hard to hit directly with at < 5m.

I'm not sure where your < 5m "reply" came from, no one mentioned that distance. The Lasher used to not lash until it reached 10m. So, this buff is significant especually when faced with multiple opponents or when fighting a surging player at 10m. Surging cloakers, for example, are damn hard to hit because they run nearly as fast as your orbs.

I see that you disagree, but I feel dueling is relevant. In "normal" combat you can end up facing more than one enemy, you can get ambushed from behind, etc. In a duel all things are even other than the equipment you carry.

Lashers get owned in an "all things even" environment because the JH will just surge into your face and with his superior TTK will win. And the MCG will get at that sweet spot at medium range where he can still dodge some of your slow orbs while keeping a solid bead on you for the quick kill.

From your statement I assumed that you don't duel, because even at 5m or so hits are not guaranteed against a good surgile player. Smacking noobs all day in "normal" battle will not fully illustrate my point. The lasher simply requires more leading and prediction skills than other weapons and in some cases you simply can not always guess correctly.

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 11:11 AM

I'd say atm the lasher's the best HA weapon. I can't see any disadvantages it now; it rapes at every range. Close range, just hold fire, longer range (where NC and TR's HA weapons have no chance whatsoever), you can aim a little and shoot. This is from observed/felt experiences, I haven't used any since the patch, so I can't give a nonbiased view, but it seems pretty damned solid weapon now.

The Lasher is a good solid weapon now. I like that with it you can hang with JH and MCG users and it's also a good against groups and even MAX units. So it's a nice universal weapon.

However, it still does not have the TTK of the JH, so if he gets in close (not too hard to do in most situations) then he has an edge. And the MCG is still better at medium range because the Lasher orbs are slow. Lash damage is ok, but direct hits are where your killing power is.

Fenrys

2004-02-19, 11:18 AM

Against a circle-strafing surgile inside 1m, you need to lead them so far with the lasher that they actually leave your screen. You're almost shooting directly behind you, hoping that they continue to move in the same direction.

Queensidecastle

2004-02-19, 11:53 AM

So far my thoughts are this:

Since the Decimator was moved to AV I have had to find another way to kill MAXs because I am not willing to give up any of my current certs. The only one I even could give up and remain an effective combat soldier would be assault buggy and that is not an option. Being able to drive Skyguard/Marauder in Rexo is an extremely powerful thing and results in tower asskickings like no other. So instead I reconfigured my inventories to take advantage of the new Rocklet ammo buff. So far I am very impressed. I replaced my big inventory hole where the decimator used to be with a rocklet and some ammo boxes. So far the Rocklet is proving to be a very suitable MAX killer and I did not have to give up my precious Thumper. Also a box of frags now is very effective against MAXs as well.

Now, you certainly cannot own MAXs like before the SA nerf, but its a hell of a lot better than carrying AP ammo and still remains the most versatile weapons group. Rocklet and thumper at medium distances > MA by a longshot and now with the ammo buff you can switch to a box of frags, or Rocklet if you need to kill a MAX

TheN00b

2004-02-19, 12:07 PM

I already posted this is my own thread, but I absolutely love the power of the AV masses to bring down large targets. I might even come to pity those poor tanks in the coming days :D :cool: .

TheRagingGerbil

2004-02-19, 12:32 PM

The lasher does own. I think it is the easiest of the HA weapons to use. The funnest is the MCG and the most effective is the jackhammer. I get more kills with a looted lasher then I do with my jack. I dunno, I guess I am natural shot.

The problem with the lasher is a few asses complained so a few more asses jumped on the asswagon and soon we have an entire tidal wave of asses complaining. Everyone see's this huge influx of asses and think that the asses must be right so every god forsaken vanu and his mother cert in the Lasher. The asses see everyone carrying a lasher, hence they die to the lasher more, so in their mind it is obviously overpowered. The same damned thing happened when the JH was supposedly uber, same with the Pounder. More recently you have seen this with the huge numbers of "uber" Vanu maxes.

Players cert in what other players complain the most about.

Vis Armata

2004-02-19, 12:47 PM

I started using the Punisher on my alt (http://myplanetside.station.sony.com/character.jsp?charId=486380&worldId=15), and I was having fun with it. I can carry 200 rounds of 9mm, one box each of plasma and jammer rounds - and still have room for 18 Phoenix rounds. It's great. My primary pilot has a rocklet only, and my ammo capacity went from 24 to 75. :D

As far as HA...Indoors, the disco inferno is scary, but plasma seems to calm down the dancing. Outdoors, the Vanu are still not doing as well - its still fairly easy to hit a Vanu with a plasma grenade and 9mm bullets. MCGs are the same, obviously.

AV - I've seen plenty of Lancers and Strikers, but they aren't totally dominating the field. I flew yesterday with our air cav unit, but I didn't really run into a lot of Strikers.

Overall, I don't think things are as bad as people think.

Riyu

2004-02-19, 12:47 PM

90 Sniper bullets in Agile.

All I can say is WOW!

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 01:06 PM

Players cert in what other players complain the most about.

I kind of agree and kind of don�t with that statement. Personally, I�ll analyze the pros and cons with the various equipment in the game by testing it myself. When I find things that work well with my style of play then I�ll just simply cert and equip the best combination of available tools to achieve my goals. I think many players do this. Thus, if something is tweaked by the devs then many players try it out to see how effective it is to their style of play and fighting. If they like it they will keep it. If they don�t they won�t.

I think within the next few days you will see a substantial drop off of AV weapons and Lashers. AV in particular as people realize the added ammo capacity is nice, but the TTK was not increased. People will work fine in groups for now simply because of the volume of people trying out the latest �new toy�. Once enough people start getting sick of scoring several hits only to have one of the other AV guys get the kill you will start seeing less of these weapons. You can have 10 people with a Striker defending the base, but only 1 gets the Liberator kill even if all of them hit the target. So that�s 1 happy guy and 9 disappointed Striker wielders. These inflated numbers will trickle off but I think they will remain higher than before. Many were turned off by the combination of weak killing power and low ammo capacity. Now you still have the weak killing power but enough ammo to eventually get the job done.

TheN00b

2004-02-19, 01:21 PM

BadAsh, I don't particularly agree with the second part of your statement. When you say that getting no kills with AV is not the fun, thats sortof true, but there's two factors that make that possibly invalid if you're NC. First, and this is for all Empires, their is always a possibility of not just you, but your entire squad being those 10 Striker users, in which case you're all happy. Even if only several of your squaddies are working with AV weapons up top, it still means more exp for you. Also, if you're NC, the Pheonix is not only effective in large numbers, but also incredibly fun! I don't know about the Striker and Lancer, but it is totally sweet to be guiding your own missile towards it's target. Good times :D :love: :groovy: .

infinite loop

2004-02-19, 01:49 PM

Overall, I like the patch. I think alot of the changes were much needed. However, I have a HUGE gripe with the nerf to the JH. I am fine with the ammo box change, I'm talking about the quad-shot nerf. I honestly don't give a shit about the balance argument that brought it on.

My view has always been that nerfs are bad, and just piss people off. I don't understand the logic behind them, and still propose buffs to others instead of nerfing. I don't have the best answer necessarily, but I wonder if they even considered another alternative, such as adding a secondary mode to the other HA weapons? What pisses me off the most is the bullshit line from the devs that this has been a bug all along, and they are just now noticing it. Bullshit. Whether or not it was a bug, they didn't notice it until people whined enough about it that they couldn't ignore it. That's just poor customer service, on both sides of who was effected.

Anyway, enough of my ranting. One of my staple playstyles has been removed, and I'm utterly frustrated and pissed off about it. You all can say "hey it's about time you got a nerf" and I'll agree with you. But I'll never understand why any of you ever had to get nerfed in the first place. I'll be logging in to my VS char for the next few days while I settle down. Me likey my lasher/lancer combo!

Queensidecastle

2004-02-19, 02:06 PM

What pisses me off the most is the bullshit line from the devs that this has been a bug all along, and they are just now noticing it. Bullshit. Whether or not it was a bug, they didn't notice it until people whined enough about it that they couldn't ignore it. That's just poor customer service, on both sides of who was effected.
Thats actually much like what they tried to say about the Decimator being in Special Assault

BigFreak

2004-02-19, 03:51 PM

My view has always been that nerfs are bad, and just piss people off. I don't understand the logic behind them, and still propose buffs to others instead of nerfing. I don't have the best answer necessarily, but I wonder if they even considered another alternative, such as adding a secondary mode to the other HA weapons?

That's silly balancing; making everything as stupidly powerful as everything. It ruins gameplay having one click kills (see: Flail). It's not fun, it's not tactical, it's not big, and it's not clever.

infinite loop

2004-02-19, 03:56 PM

That's silly balancing; making everything as stupidly powerful as everything. It ruins gameplay having one click kills (see: Flail). It's not fun, it's not tactical, it's not big, and it's not clever.

Then they NEVER should have had it in the game to begin with. If it hadn't been there for the last 9 months, I wouldn't miss it now. Bad design? Maybe. But regardless, "fixing" it now doesn't mean it should just be accepted, and make people happy. Nerfs will never be justified.

Warborn

2004-02-19, 04:02 PM

Vick

2004-02-19, 04:27 PM

Apparently you don't duel. Know why no one uses a Lasher in a duel? Because they get their asses handed to them. Players with a Punusher can consistantly beat down a Lasher in a duel. Good players will dodge and strafe in an irregular pattern and be very difficult to hit with every orb, with the MCG and JH it's much easier to hit in that setting... so, you miss a few times, they don't = Dead Lasher 90% of the time.

In the game under normal combat is where the Lasher shines. Rarely will you face someone 1v1 in the open when you see each other at the exact same time... like in a duel. So if you can hit them first you will usually win and the reverse is true. Then there are hallways... lovely lashable hallways... hehe :)

But to the thread topic spacifically:

This patch owns. I love it.

Wtf? What kinda newb dies to a punisher while he has a lasher?

Lasher is probably the best HA in my opinion, that or MCG. JH is my least favorite, and it really sucks against new rexo, and it sucks if your in rexo, like a double nerf.

Anyway, patch is pretty good except maybe for the to many strikers and the lash inside 5m (you can stand next to an enemy and randomly to kill them, its just silly).

Seer

2004-02-19, 06:45 PM

The game's balance is more important than your attachment to a broken weapon.

Warborn 1, infinite loop 0.

Special recognition to infinite loop for having an impressively weak point.

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 07:01 PM

Warborn 1, infinite loop 0.

Special recognition to infinite loop for having an impressively weak point.

Hahahaha

Nice post.

BadAsh

2004-02-19, 07:10 PM

Wtf? What kinda newb dies to a punisher while he has a lasher?

That was my exact thought until I saw it with my own eyes. 1 Plasma grenade + Surge + strafe = win 4 outa 5 times against the old lasher. The only difference now is that you get lash damage within 10m so I'd like to see if that Punisher Tactic still works.

The reason I blame the weapon and not the player is because when the 2 duelers switch weapons the win ratio also switches.

Typically in dueling the Lasher loses to: Punisher, Sweeper, Jack, and MCG on a consistant basis. The orbs are just too slow and the lashing damage is not substantial enough to turn a miss into a win.

In no way am I advocating a Lasher buff. I'm just pointing out that it sucks for dueling and that maybe with the new mini-buff it got in this patch that may change a little.

Rbstr

2004-02-19, 07:25 PM

Me loves the JH nerf becsuae i think i'm seeing more guasses, and the 4 shot needed to be removed even thoughthe devs probably intended it to be that way.

Destroyeron

2004-02-19, 09:13 PM

My thoughs on the ammo patch when it was announced: YAY I CAN GO FOR MORE THEN 5 MINUTES WITH MY ROCKLET!!!!!

My thoughts after playing on Werner(vs) with reinforced and sa while completely decimating 15 TR that *attempted* to take a base from me and a max: If I have reinfored, the new patch, and SA, I WILL be unstoppable.

P.S. I didn't die once while killing those 15 TR and yes they did have max's so :P~ (tr on werner need target practice)

Rbstr

2004-02-19, 09:43 PM

I can now make my previously AV incapable characters like my Gauss and sweeper agiles, and my sniper configs, AV capable with a deci

Lithpope

2004-02-19, 10:15 PM

Anyway, patch is pretty good except maybe for the to many strikers

Play TR and can not say there are too many (IMO you can never have too many :p ) but, it is nice to see a Marked increase in Strikers and yes even Lancers in the field. The NC were the only ones who regularly used AV until this patch, Now if they will just FIX THE FUCKING lock bug on the Striker.

Biohazzard56

2004-02-19, 11:02 PM

Then they NEVER should have had it in the game to begin with. If it hadn't been there for the last 9 months, I wouldn't miss it now. Bad design? Maybe. But regardless, "fixing" it now doesn't mean it should just be accepted, and make people happy. Nerfs will never be justified.

It only makes JH noobs happy cause thats the only way they get kills. I see far to many NC with Jackhammers in long range battles. NC especially Markov need to get a gauss rifle, and drop the Jackhammer. HA is finally balanced, Lasher got a buff cause it deserved it when rexo buff came, MCG is balanced, JH has been brought into balance. And I still own, the moral of the story is if your still bitching about the Jackhammer nerf that means you cant hit the broad side of a fucking barn with a shotgun. End of Story

NoSurrender

2004-02-20, 12:07 AM

God i love the ammo buff. i had picked up striker and has used it extensively over the weekend. Its a great weapon, but the damage to maxes is a bit low in my opinion. it takes around the same number of shots to kill a reaver as it does a max. ( i saved peacemakers ass constantly with this and got quite a few reavers) Now, i logged on today, and where i used to have 20 total shots i now have 50. I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! now i dont have to go OMG OMG OMG let me run back to base or ams to get more ammo. and in my full striker rexo loadout i have 100shots ;) ph34r me NC and VS reavers.

WritheNC

2004-02-20, 12:43 AM

I have mixed feelings on the patch.

I am having trouble adjusting so far because since the rexo buff its more difficult to kill with my two primary weapons(gauss and sweeper).

I guess the lasher could have used the buff. I used to mow through them 80-90% of the time with just a gauss no matter the range, but if you're gonna spend 4 certs for a weapon then it should only be fair that you have more than a 50% chance over an MA user.

Haven't seen many maxes in the last couple days. Probably scared to come out with AV being all over the place. Or uncerted to get AV.

BadAsh

2004-02-20, 03:10 AM

I guess the lasher could have used the buff. I used to mow through them 80-90% of the time with just a gauss no matter the range, but if you're gonna spend 4 certs for a weapon then it should only be fair that you have more than a 50% chance over an MA user.

/signed

infinite loop

2004-02-20, 01:58 PM

Warborn 1, infinite loop 0.

Special recognition to infinite loop for having an impressively weak point.

No need to be a dick.

infinite loop

2004-02-20, 02:06 PM

It only makes JH noobs happy cause thats the only way they get kills. I see far to many NC with Jackhammers in long range battles. NC especially Markov need to get a gauss rifle, and drop the Jackhammer. HA is finally balanced, Lasher got a buff cause it deserved it when rexo buff came, MCG is balanced, JH has been brought into balance. And I still own, the moral of the story is if your still bitching about the Jackhammer nerf that means you cant hit the broad side of a fucking barn with a shotgun. End of Story

Wow nice stereotype there bud. Love how you lump me into that, having never squadded with me before. Truth is, I would guess that at least a third of my kills are with the gauss. But it doesn't matter. My point is, I'm pissed off, and I'm venting some steam. This thread is about the patch, and I'm giving my opinion. No need to attack me or flame me, that's pretty lame. I'm glad to hear you still own, golf claps all around :rolleyes:

infinite loop

2004-02-20, 02:39 PM

The game's balance is more important than your attachment to a broken weapon.

You know, you are absolutely right. It's very difficult to see the overall 'good for the game' in this kind of thing when it directly affects the way you play however. That said, I'm still not convinced this fix was necessary, or that the JH had ANY balance issues. But alas, I won't start another worthless HA debate, they just lead to more nerfs...

Dharkbayne

2004-02-20, 02:40 PM

Edit button.

Acaila

2004-02-20, 04:44 PM

I'm not sure where your < 5m "reply" came from, no one mentioned that distance. The Lasher used to not lash until it reached 10m. So, this buff is significant especually when faced with multiple opponents or when fighting a surging player at 10m. Surging cloakers, for example, are damn hard to hit because they run nearly as fast as your orbs.

I see that you disagree, but I feel dueling is relevant. In "normal" combat you can end up facing more than one enemy, you can get ambushed from behind, etc. In a duel all things are even other than the equipment you carry.

Lashers get owned in an "all things even" environment because the JH will just surge into your face and with his superior TTK will win. And the MCG will get at that sweet spot at medium range where he can still dodge some of your slow orbs while keeping a solid bead on you for the quick kill.

From your statement I assumed that you don't duel, because even at 5m or so hits are not guaranteed against a good surgile player. Smacking noobs all day in "normal" battle will not fully illustrate my point. The lasher simply requires more leading and prediction skills than other weapons and in some cases you simply can not always guess correctly.

The lash started at 5m (http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum15/HTML/001384.html) (about halfway down the page), apparently SmokeJumper mentioned it (along with a mistake he corrected in this (http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/002007.html) post. 1/6th of a second, there is the 5m travel time of a Lasher orb, you have to lead, but this imaginary strafing where people are able to avoid the orbs that hit them in 1/6 of a second is non-existant. It would be a skipping and warping issue. It is possible to hit them, they cannot avoid it, you are simply missing. The problem with the Lasher is the people who use it. People in alot of games consider certain weapons to be spam weapons, they just spray around and hope the bad man falls down. A good player knows that there is no such thing as a spam weapon and takes the time to learn how to maximise their hit potential. How can a duel be relevant when it begins in the niche of a particularly weapon? You start it at < 5m, unless a triple shot is landed properly, whoever pulls the trigger first wins. You start at 20m, the MCG will win. I would put my money on an MCG in basically any HA duel. You ever seen what looped on Markov does with a Lasher? I haven't heard of anyone who considers themselves better than he is with a HA weapon. You also seem to believe that TR and NC have a monopoly on surge. Surge will help you as it helps your opponent. Meh, perhaps your right, I don't have many kills as a VS, under 5k anyway, I have never had a problem killing with it. I don't duel, why would I want to duel in a game that is so poorly setup for dueling? This game doesn't revolve around 1v1 set encounters.

The people who could already land direct hits with the Lasher will continue to own, the people who can't will continue to get their asses handed to them but will inflict a bit of damage. That makes the people with bad aim dangerous in numbers. The patch hasn't changed all that much, except you can lash a rexo to death if they are afk now, it is a buff, but not that big of a buff. What the fuck are we arguing about anyway? Seriously, I can't actually figure it out.

Oh yeah, I stand by my "load of crap blah blah blah" statement.

That was my exact thought until I saw it with my own eyes. 1 Plasma grenade + Surge + strafe = win 4 outa 5 times against the old lasher. The only difference now is that you get lash damage within 10m so I'd like to see if that Punisher Tactic still works.

The reason I blame the weapon and not the player is because when the 2 duelers switch weapons the win ratio also switches.

Typically in dueling the Lasher loses to: Punisher, Sweeper, Jack, and MCG on a consistant basis. The orbs are just too slow and the lashing damage is not substantial enough to turn a miss into a win.

In no way am I advocating a Lasher buff. I'm just pointing out that it sucks for dueling and that maybe with the new mini-buff it got in this patch that may change a little.
A plasma nade followed by bullets from a Punisher has a ttk better than any HA (bar triple shot) against a reinforced with a direct or very close nade hit. A Punisher has identical damage statistics to a Cycler at point blank if I remember greyfalcon's chart properly.

BadAsh

2004-02-20, 06:08 PM

Acaila,

I think you and I are just comparing apples and oranges. The lasher is a fine field weapon and works wonders against groups of enemy troops, in hallways, against newer players, and against people who don�t see you coming because you successfully surprised or flanked them.

In a duel, however, things are a bit different. The slow orbs make the difference in a 1v1 match against a fast moving skilled opponent. Weapons that fire shot gun shells or 9mm bullets have no where near the lead time and are easier to hit with because less guessing is involved. So the Lasher does not fare so well in such a setting.

As to your point about the Punisher, perhaps it looks good against other weapons on paper, but in a duel it will consistently only beat a Lasher which was the point of my original statement.

Anyway assumption to your first reply proved true� �Obviously, you don�t duel��

WritheNC

2004-02-20, 06:33 PM

I do think the JH is the weakest HA right now.

Yes, it is the most powerful up close, but in all around characteristics in range, it suffers too much in the other categories.

I think the JH should have a tighter spread.

The advantage of this is that you can still do decent damage at a respectable distance(since the pellets in a tighter spread will hit more).

The disadvantage is that your aim has to be better than it was in close quarters, since the spread is tighter and you need to put as much of the cof as you can on the person.

I'd make that trade if it were up to me, but its not. :)

Biohazzard56

2004-02-20, 06:58 PM

Wow nice stereotype there bud. Love how you lump me into that, having never squadded with me before. Truth is, I would guess that at least a third of my kills are with the gauss. But it doesn't matter. My point is, I'm pissed off, and I'm venting some steam. This thread is about the patch, and I'm giving my opinion. No need to attack me or flame me, that's pretty lame. I'm glad to hear you still own, golf claps all around :rolleyes:

Ive squadded with you once and I didnt say infinite loop, and im sorry about flaming about the "suck part" I wasnt particulary going after you just a rant about NC on our server.

TheN00b

2004-02-20, 07:04 PM

I honestly think that the Jackhammer should be replaced by another weapon altogether. While I know that every Empire is different, I feel that they should all retain some basic similiarities, and I think that the Jackhammer has an emphasis on an entirely different zone of combat then the other two HA weapons due. In order to make these three more alike, I propose that the Jackhammer be laid by the wayside in favor of a fairly accurate, slow-firing railgun, which would suit both the style of the NC and the HA cert on the whole. But that's just my 1.5 Euros.

Biohazzard56

2004-02-20, 09:07 PM

Since seeing the light, bitcing about HA is pointless. I think of it like Gay Marrages, if thats their thing let them do it and dont bitch about it, as long as i dont have to hear people bitch about it (the media) ill be fine.

Edit: I just boiled down the HA controversy to Gay Marrage, oh well. I think you see my point :lol:

Kaymon

2004-02-20, 09:14 PM

Edit: I just boiled down the HA controversy to Gay Marrage, oh well. I think you see my point :lol:

Hey, I can compare the MCG to a dick.

It sticks out of your hip and shoots hundreds of little guys. But only one or two make it to their intended destination.

Dharkbayne

2004-02-20, 09:17 PM

:lol: :rofl:

Biohazzard56

2004-02-20, 09:23 PM

Thats not a big deal...

I can compare the Lasher to a Vagina.

Wait, no i cant :(

The only thing thats right it does lash within 5m, but it realisticly doesnt have a range of more than 2cm....You know what? I have nothing, lame post

Kaymon

2004-02-20, 09:40 PM

The Lasher is like a woman.

You can handle it when there's only one. But when there are a lot of them, you can't avoid lash damage.

Biohazzard56

2004-02-20, 10:18 PM

I think you should stop posting to :p

No way to describe it

WritheNC

2004-02-20, 11:00 PM

I just logged off, and all I can say now is the devs released too much in one patch.

Buffing the lasher reload time, the lasher clip size, and the "bug fix" to the JH is too profound of a change all at once in lieu with the ammo changes.

I think this caused too much shock for most people to handle.

I would have fixed the JH secondary fire mode this week, given the lasher faster reload the next week, and a larger clip the week after that.

I'm going to wait a week for people to settle down before I play again and form any strong opinions. Right now VS has a crazy population spike because of the recent changes so its a little difficult to fight them atm. :)

infinite loop

2004-02-23, 12:17 PM

Ive squadded with you once and I didnt say infinite loop, and im sorry about flaming about the "suck part" I wasnt particulary going after you just a rant about NC on our server.

It's all good man, I think we're both equally frustrated for one reason or another, and these forums are our place to vent. I do agree though, there are far too many NC who refuse to fight anywhere but indoors with a JH. It's become obvious as these people have switched sides since the patch, as we are outnumbered consistently now. So I will suck it up, and continue to use my peashooter, and help out the NC however I can. This patch still sucks ass tho :mad:

Onizuka-GTO

2004-02-23, 01:17 PM

erm....excuse me, but is the ammo patch up already? Because I just fired up my launcher and it doesnt seem to say anything about a new update patch...... :confused:

Madcow

2004-02-23, 01:30 PM

The last patch (last week) was the ammo patch, although it didn't include the grenade ammo change for some inexplicable reason.

Zatrais

2004-02-23, 02:16 PM

Just a note on the current Lasher, i wouldn't get to fond of it if i was VS. Theres been all sorts of checking done on it and does appear that the lasher is indeed bugged.

The bug is that the lasher appears to lash in the orbs forward facing arch about 66% of the time. Thats something the lasher was never intended to be able to do, the lash was sposed to be a compensation for missing the target. Anyways, when the lash happens in the forward facing arc of the orb the lasher does insane amounts of damage. A normal hit on an agile does 23 health damage in close quarters, whit the lash it suddenly does 32 health damage pr shot.

Lasher should be alright again once thats fixed. Its abit much in its current incarnation hehe.

GreyFlcn

2004-02-23, 02:21 PM

Uhm not 66% of the time.

Just most the time at 3-4m range, and 7-9m range

Zatrais

2004-02-23, 02:31 PM

Uhm not 66% of the time.

Just most the time at 3-4m range, and 7-9m range

Yeh, and alot of indoor combat happens in ranges below 10 meters so your bracket makes it lash aproximently 50% of the time. I found it to be abit more, but its of little matter. Its a hell of a nasty bug and i hope it gets fixed soon.

Dharkbayne

2004-02-23, 02:40 PM

The last patch (last week) was the ammo patch, although it didn't include the grenade ammo change for some inexplicable reason.

Alas, 'tis because the devs are never going to buff the infils. Evar.

infinite loop

2004-02-23, 03:13 PM

Wait, can you elaborate on this bug? Me confused. Are you saying that each shot that is a direct hit causes normal damage AND lash damage simultaneously?

Fenrys

2004-02-23, 03:39 PM

Wait, can you elaborate on this bug? Me confused. Are you saying that each shot that is a direct hit causes normal damage AND lash damage simultaneously?

The lash happens first, then the orb hits and you take even more damage. Not exactly simutaneous, but pretty close.

BadAsh

2004-02-23, 03:46 PM

Wait, can you elaborate on this bug? Me confused. Are you saying that each shot that is a direct hit causes normal damage AND lash damage simultaneously?

I've not noticed this "bug". With a MCG and or Jack I can take down a Lasher pretty consistantly. I think people are getting confused with the raw amount of Lasher users. It's human nature to rush out and try the new toy and that's the status of the Lasher for now. Soon that will die off and things will be back to normal.

The Lasher is about as effective as it was before with the exception that you can get an additional kill per clip because of the increased clip size. This just gives you the capability that the MCG and Jack have been enjoying for some time now, so no big deal there.

What I have seen though is defensive positions with 10+ Lashers firing at a single choke point entrance. Now that is what I've not seen in a while and how so many are getting owned. The VS are a tough opponent now because you are either facing a New Lasher/New Lancer/New Rexo Infantry guy OR a VS MAX. Add the usual swarm of Magriders and Reavers to that mix and you have a formidable force to deal with.

Gone are the days of getting your agile+jack+surge and riding around in your vanguard uncontested on land or in a building.

IMHO It's nice to see the VS with an effective HA and the TR with tuff integrated MAX and Infantry units. That DC MAX is nice!

infinite loop

2004-02-23, 04:02 PM

Sorry ash, seems some testing has confirmed it is a bug:

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum8/HTML/035712.html
http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/002176.html

BadAsh

2004-02-23, 04:54 PM

Sorry ash, seems some testing has confirmed it is a bug:

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum8/HTML/035712.html
http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/002176.html

Firstly

It remains to be seen how unbiased those player tests are... but let's assume they are accurate...

Take a "bugged" Lasher and stand him toe to toe with a Jack. Have both in agile armor and have the Jack use only stand fire mode, not the tri-shot. Then on queue have them go at it. The Jack wins every time.

Now try this test at meduim range and the Jack wins only about half the time with agile and surge.

So the Jack wins in CQB and looses (sometimes) at medium range without even breaking out the power of the tri-shot.

So even the "overpowered" and "horrifically bugged" that "must be fixed now" Lasher is still not as powerful as a jackhammer...

Secondly

Though not directly targeted towards you... I find it amusing that the same people who were denouncing nerfs and bug fixes for the Jackhammers infamous "quad-shot" ability and huge killing ammo potential are now screaming about a slight potential damage bug with the Lasher... so you take an extra 7 points of lash damage every 3rd shot? This is no where near as crushing as the quad shot or the capacity of 10 kills per box of ammo that shotgun shells represented... but the crying about it is already legendary...

Sorry if my composure breaks down to a loud... :rofl:

infinite loop

2004-02-23, 06:56 PM

Firstly

It remains to be seen how unbiased those player tests are... but let's assume they are accurate...

Take a "bugged" Lasher and stand him toe to toe with a Jack. Have both in agile armor and have the Jack use only stand fire mode, not the tri-shot. Then on queue have them go at it. The Jack wins every time.

I haven't performed the tests myself, but from the tests I've read about on the OF, I think your TTK here is off. I've killed and been killed by a lasher in rexo in 3 or 4 shots. I think that TTK is equal to or faster than that of a JH at that range. Just speculating right now though.

Though not directly targeted towards you... I find it amusing that the same people who were denouncing nerfs and bug fixes for the Jackhammers infamous "quad-shot" ability and huge killing ammo potential are now screaming about a slight potential damage bug with the Lasher... so you take an extra 7 points of lash damage every 3rd shot? This is no where near as crushing as the quad shot or the capacity of 10 kills per box of ammo that shotgun shells represented... but the crying about it is already legendary...

Again, I think you have your numbers messed up. The bug can apparently happen on every single shot, not just every third shot. And lash damage is 14 pts, not 7. So let's say it happens 50% of the time. After 4 shots that's an extra 28 pts of damage. I consider that to be huge. Even if it's only 33% of the time, that's 28 pts more over 6 shots. Still pretty crushing if you ask me.

Sorry if my composure breaks down to a loud... :rofl:

Personally I haven't done any screaming about the lasher directly. Before I knew about the bug, I was pretty happy with the buff, I've thought it was needed all along. But if this bug is true, then it could definitely account for the crippling forces the VS have hit the NC and TR with over the last week, and I would hope it gets fixed quickly. Oh and, I still defy you to convince me that "fixing" the quad-shot was a bugfix. It was simply another instance of the whiners getting the best of the devs, when they should know better.