A small Idea for basic engineeres

[noodles]

Obviously Engineeres are a valuable asset to any squad, platoon, outfit, or anyone that has some sort of armor for that matter. So why not offer exp with that? I'm not saying that it should be any signifacant amount but maybe something like 2 exp to every 32 armor points restored? Base it on the ant run exp. Or maybe exp for a vehicle or armor succesfully completely restored. Nothing to much because if it is too high exp than it would be insanly easy for any engineere to catch rank. Just something for a little insintive for them.
I also think that this would make alot of battles for interesting and it would help to encourage ppl to take on the "support" role wich is so viltal to and battle.

[Fenrys]

If not exp, then at least outfit points. Supports needs <3

[Chaaos]

Maybe they should give exp for rezing people? Nobody seems to have the cert or if they have it they dont seem to want to use it. Might give a little more incentive to pick up a very under-used ability.

Just an idea to kick around.

[SilverLord]

Basic engineeing and combat engineer are fine and dandy as is. What needs help is the basic med and adv. med.

[ORANGE]

Obviously Engineeres are a valuable asset to any squad, platoon, outfit, or anyone that has some sort of armor for that matter. So why not offer exp with that? I'm not saying that it should be any signifacant amount but maybe something like 2 exp to every 32 armor points restored? Base it on the ant run exp. Or maybe exp for a vehicle or armor succesfully completely restored. Nothing to much because if it is too high exp than it would be insanly easy for any engineere to catch rank. Just something for a little insintive for them.
This has been brought up before and I think I may have heard the devs say it was a good idea so someday it might come into play.

Maybe they should give exp for rezing people? Nobody seems to have the cert or if they have it they dont seem to want to use it. Might give a little more incentive to pick up a very under-used ability.

Just an idea to kick around.
Lots of people have it they just never seem to want to use it on anyone outside their squad/platoon/outfit.

[Majik]

Maybe they should give exp for rezing people? Nobody seems to have the cert or if they have it they dont seem to want to use it. Might give a little more incentive to pick up a very under-used ability.

Just an idea to kick around.

Well speaking for the Adv Meds out here, it's not that we don't want to rez people, whether they are part of our squad/outfit or not. The problem is where people need rezzing is always in the middle of the heaviest fighting where they either release before we can get to them, or we get killed trying to get to them. Most of my deaths in large battles occur because I am kneeling with the med app in my hands over someones corpse when an enemy comes around the corner and wastes me because no one provides cover for the medics/engineers to do their work.

[Warborn]

I don't see why Medical/Engineering activities should get experience. They're still just as effective at killing as anyone else, unless Med/Engi tools take up rifle slots now. And besides, you are, in a way, getting experience for resurrecting/healing/repairing allies. They'll therefore be able to stay in combat longer, and if they're in your squad or platoon, there's a good chance that they'll end up killing at least one more person, giving you some experience for helping them continue to fight.

I can't see Medical/Engineering tasks being awarded any real amount of exp without making it too easy to exploit and abuse, either.

[Uberpimp]

Giving exp to engi's and medics isn't a half bad idea who else but a medic (other than me) would run out into battle with relativley no gun. Yes I'm crazy....

[EarlyDawn]

Didn't the devs say some huge changes comming eventually for support classes? If you ask me, all the inadaquicies in the support certs are gonna be handled by the alternate advancement system.

[dscytherulez]

The problem with giving XP to support is its exploit factor. You could get one guy in your squad and take turns shooting eachother to near death, then repair/heal them. Same goes for the rezzing.

[Peacemaker]

Too exploitable... think about it. Squad shoots one guy in the squadand the engi repairs. Rinse and repeat.

[Krinsath]

I don't see why Medical/Engineering activities should get experience. They're still just as effective at killing as anyone else, unless Med/Engi tools take up rifle slots now. And besides, you are, in a way, getting experience for resurrecting/healing/repairing allies. They'll therefore be able to stay in combat longer, and if they're in your squad or platoon, there's a good chance that they'll end up killing at least one more person, giving you some experience for helping them continue to fight.

I can't see Medical/Engineering tasks being awarded any real amount of exp without making it too easy to exploit and abuse, either.


Well, a few things...

1) The vehicle repair tool does indeed take up a rifle slot.

2) Advanced Medic is 5 certs...at a low BR that means they have given up being an AV trooper, a MAX, a Sniper, or even a SA user. It is a sacrifice to become a support soldier and they are NOT always as effective at killing (Suppressor vs. any HA = dead).

3) Why SHOULDN'T they get experience for it? Are they not using their cert as intended? That's why ANT drivers get XP, they're using they ANT to do it's job. Same logic on the weaponry...when you get a kill you're doing your job. Why should support be second class?

4) They've giving up certs on the CHANCE that the guy they just healed is going to kill someone else IF they're in the same squad (which isn't damned likely). That's the kind of odds I'd expect in Vegas, and it's not entirely fair. Of course, the guy you just rezzed has no armor, so you need to fix that...what's that you say? I'm up to 8 support certs now? Boy...I'm glad I don't get any experience from this!

Yes, a lot of systems would be open to abuse. I've said many times that medics should get XP from rezzing soldiers killed by enemy fire (something already tracked) and engs should get XP for repairing MAXes and vehicles below 50% armor. 20XP for repairs, 50XP from heals. Would take a long long time to get anywhere off those numbers. Exploiters would do better to get an ANT and a Galaxy and just fly around milking XP that way.

Put in a mechanism to make it only enemy damage counts, and remarkably the system becomes almost self-correcting. Why? Because anytime you have a fight between two empires, a hot spot generally pops up, which then attracts Instant Action people (ask anyone who's tried to run some sort of duel).

Does the system need to be well thought out? Yes...should it be in there? Yes. Support classes have been neglicted for far too long.

[Incompetent]

Your last suggestion is invalidated by the fact you can play 2 empires per server, and the fact that giving negligable amounts of XP doesn't address the real problem. It lets 3 guys in a backwater tower milk the system for what is essentially free outfit points and XP, but it doesn't give ME a god damn thing. They shouldn't aim support certs at BR5s so they can level faster and drop them once they get to the higher BRs, they need to make them useful so high BR chars have a reason to cert in the damn things.

Edit: Combat Engy/Adv medic here, xp fixes nothing, fix the cert.

[Krinsath]

3 guys in a backwater shooting each other will set off a hot spot...see the end of the post. There have been people trying to set up cross-empire duels and they've been ruined on numerous occasions by Instant Action people showing up and killing everyone because they don't care about such things. As I said, self-correcting.

There needs to be some sort of reward for taking the engy/medic cert, as currently outside of self-interest there is no reason to do so. If you drive a vehicle, you're an engy. If you like putting down mines and spits, you're a CE. Very few people are advanced medic and the mechanics of the game make it so difficult to use when players release (and so useless when you are the one revived) that it's pointless. A better number carry medic, but that's almost as often to heal themselves and those in the immediate surroundings.

Every other cert in the game leads to XP or an increased means of getting XP in the case of RExo and Infiltrator, why do these two lead nowhere? If the Devs can provide an explanation beyond "oh well...we don't want an abuse situation coming up" (which should be avoidable with all this wondrous data they claim to track...wouldn't you think?) then fine...as of yet, they have not. Hence the support classes are horrendously underused and the zerg mentality continues. Hard to coordinate a squad when everytime somebody dies it disperes your unit more and more.

[Incompetent]

I'm just saying that that the reward is going to be worthless to BR20s, the people who have the certs to burn and the ones who should be picking it up, and incredibly easy to exploit. It's not like it will make that much of a difference about the hotspot, people will find a way around it with a little thought.

Even if you managed to make it completely unexploitable, it's still worthless. High level chars could care less about the negligdable xp trickle, and low level chars would cert in something different so they could level faster and increase there survival. If you don't make the cert worth having, its a waste of time. Add in a REAL incentive, such as faster rezzing, rez up until the char respawns instead of till release, the ability to more easily tell if you can be rezzed soon or make rezzing easier (it can be a bitch to find the one spot it works at.) Don't insult your support troops with half assed measures, give them a real buff.

[Warborn]

Well, a few things...

1) The vehicle repair tool does indeed take up a rifle slot.

Yeah, I know. Medical Applicator and BANK don't, however, and given that they're the most popular support tools I don't think the caulk gun changes things.

2) Advanced Medic is 5 certs...at a low BR that means they have given up being an AV trooper, a MAX, a Sniper, or even a SA user. It is a sacrifice to become a support soldier and they are NOT always as effective at killing (Suppressor vs. any HA = dead).

This is a pretty ridiculous statement. Who in their right mind, at BR2, blows all their certs on support? You've got to be really new to the game to do something like that. No person who is serious about contributing to a fight would buy Advanced Medical even before getting at least Medium Assault, unless they're one of the people who thinks the surpressor is a very good weapon, which some people certainly do.

3) Why SHOULDN'T they get experience for it? Are they not using their cert as intended? That's why ANT drivers get XP, they're using they ANT to do it's job. Same logic on the weaponry...when you get a kill you're doing your job. Why should support be second class?

Support should be second class because it is second class. Once I hit BR 20, I could, if I wanted to, have Advanced Engineering, and Advanced Medical if I decided to spend my two spare certs on another Adv. certification. But, the point is that I am absolutely not, by any means at all, a support player. I snipe, and grunt when the situation calls for it, and I do it well despite having so many support certs. The benefit is that I am also a greater asset to the squad, because I can also heal/repair guys.

The point I'm making is that you're asking why support should be a second class role, when support isn't even a role. Anyone who plays support only and doesn't use their weapon is not seriously playing with effectiveness and winning in mind, they're using a gimmick. The day that support people give up their ability to kill enemies with weapons is the day they become a role into and of themself. Right now, support is a little footnote after someone's real job, be it HA infantry or sniper or infiltrator or whatever. There are no non-combatants in Planetside.

4) They've giving up certs on the CHANCE that the guy they just healed is going to kill someone else IF they're in the same squad (which isn't damned likely). That's the kind of odds I'd expect in Vegas, and it's not entirely fair. Of course, the guy you just rezzed has no armor, so you need to fix that...what's that you say? I'm up to 8 support certs now? Boy...I'm glad I don't get any experience from this!

How much does MA cost? Three certs? I have no problem getting kills with a cycler or sweeper. I don't know what you're making such a fuss over. Unless you get Advanced Medical/Engineering/Hacking, you've got plenty of certs left over for weapons and armor and maybe a vehicle or two, but even if you got all support certs, you'd still have some left over to pick up even Heavy Assault, if you wanted to.

[Mognoc]

Warborn, in actuality, Adv. Med / Adv Engineering. Spitfires and a Motion detector around an AMS - Stops infil AMS Jackers. And I don't know about the non Europe servers, but our CE's do this a lot. One soldier I've forgotten the name of on Werner once was *the* reason we captured Voltan after a 5 hour battle, because she was Adv Medic and Engy, and kept rezzing our dead MAXes then repairing them, So the statment This is a pretty ridiculous statement. Who in their right mind, at BR2, blows all their certs on support? You've got to be really new to the game to do something like that. No person who is serious about contributing to a fight would buy Advanced Medical is not true.

[SilverLord]

I say Adv. Medic be able to deploy something, or give some other type of feature that would allow us to further utilise the cert.

[Krinsath]

Exactly Mognoc.

Support troopers are what win even battles (which is all we have anymore thanks to the pop lock fix).

AWACS aircraft are some of the most important aircraft in the US Air Force. How many targets have they destroyed? Exactly zero. They are totally support aircraft. However, they are force multipliers because they get the right things to the the right place at the right time.

Adv Medic and Eng can keep MAX units up and running (which is key if all you have at your disposal is an AMS...and, just for reference, there are times when no tower is available nearby...or in the case of the one base on Searhus...AT ALL). They can keep an offensive going that might otherwise stall due to logistics.

There are many people who play a support only role. They fly Galaxies, they transport troops in Sunderers, they drive AMSes. Their efforts are no less important than the guys actually in the base hacking the CC.

Warborn - I find your posts normally quite intelligent, so I'll chalk this one up to a difference of opinion, but there are a LOT of fixes that need to go in to make support worthwhile. Currently if people have it, it's because it's useful to THEM, not so much to their TEAM (or Empire or whatever term you want to slap on it today).

Incompetent - A while back I posted about seven or eight things that needed to be done to make these certs viable (Eng/Medic). An XP boost was one of many ideas, but not everyone is a BR20 super-soldier. We need low to mid-range characters with this cert as well, otherwise you end up with the zerg mentality of run, die, spawn, repeat. The crucial fixes that Adv. Medic needs is that

1) A player does not turn into a backpack until their spawn timer is up and can be revived at any point prior to.

2) Players are revived with 30 stamina, so they're not just giant targets with no armor.

Also, a good way to increase at least the basic certs would be to flip the support cert costs. In other words, basic med is 2, advanced 3. Do that to both Eng and Hacking.

Why don't Adv. Medics and CEs heal/repair at a faster rate? That'd be a big plus as well. XP rewards aren't the only fix needed, but they'd be a start as they ARE helping the war effort. Killing the enemy should be top on that list, but the background contributions cannot be ignored.

[Warborn]

Warborn, in actuality, Adv. Med / Adv Engineering. Spitfires and a Motion detector around an AMS - Stops infil AMS Jackers. And I don't know about the non Europe servers, but our CE's do this a lot. One soldier I've forgotten the name of on Werner once was *the* reason we captured Voltan after a 5 hour battle, because she was Adv Medic and Engy, and kept rezzing our dead MAXes then repairing them, So the statment is not true.

What statement? I don't know what your point is. I never said they were useless, I just said that they're not a primary role. While there can be situations where a single Adv. Med has their work cut out for them, I really don't see the need to stick an easily-exploitable experience reward onto their job. Plenty of stuff in PS, from blowing generators to taking out vehicle terminals to killing a guy who was just about to hack your tower does not provide an experience reward at all, or provides one which does not at all measure up to the service you just did. But, really, what's the big deal? The point of the game is to have fun playing a large scale FPS, isn't it? Not to play Everquest with guns? I just don't relate to the scrounging for experience rewards.

If your gripe with this system is that you don't feel you're being rewarded enough for running around, Med applicator in hand, desperately trying to find people to heal, my advice would be to swap the applicator for a gun, and heal only when there's a lull in combat and a wounded guy nearby. Soldier and active part of the battle first, Medical fanatic second. Healing a single guy to full health, unless he's a MAX and you're doing his armor, takes seconds. I can't imagine an exp reward for something that takes such a small amount of time which would be both rewarding, and not easy as hell to abuse.

[Warborn]

Warborn - I find your posts normally quite intelligent, so I'll chalk this one up to a difference of opinion, but there are a LOT of fixes that need to go in to make support worthwhile. Currently if people have it, it's because it's useful to THEM, not so much to their TEAM (or Empire or whatever term you want to slap on it today).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying support shouldn't be improved, and if they can give you more ways to help your Empire, then there should be an experience reward for it, absolutely. My point is that, in its current incarnation, support roles don't take much time, or inventory space, or equipment slots. As such, I don't look at it as a full-time job, and don't think it deserves an exp reward. If they vastly improve support in all its forms, which I truly hope to do, then absolutely an exp award is justified. But, until then.

[BadAsh]

I tend to agree with Warborn on this one.

Maybe perhaps if healing someone else and reviving for medics and repairing turrets/someone else�s armor/MAX (not vehicles because you'd just repair your own) would give a very minor exp reward for teamwork support... so that short term exploiting would not yield worthwhile results, but the career support guy would see gradual significant results over the life of the character.

[Lithpope]

Support should be second class because it is second class.

The point I'm making is that you're asking why support should be a second class role, when support isn't even a role.


Warborn, normally I respect your opinion but, these were two of the most ignorant statements I have ever read from you. I cannot speak for Adv Hack or Adv Medical but, I can speak from a CE standpoint ( ALL my characters have CE, it is an absolute must for me). Squad against squad Squad one or two CE's in one squad and none in another decidedly tips the balance of a fight in favor of those with the CE's. CE provides advanced warning of the location and direction of the enemy (Motion Sensors), it provides booby traps (Boomers), it kills or slows down the enemy ( Motion sensors, Boomers, Mines and Spitfire Turrets). While Rambo with his gun is running around fighting, the CE is preparing or has prepared the battlefield already AND in doing so has made life much easier for Rambo and his gun. The enemy not only has to watch out for Rambo he must also keep mines, spitfire turrets and Boomers in mind or he dies just as quickly if not more quickly. I cannot count the number of times I have dropped a Spitfire turret just prior to the arrival of an enemy grunt and watched him go down like a drunk at a flophouse or watched my Spitfires chew up a surge monkey who thought he was invincible. Combat engineering and engineering is the backbone of any battle and if well done, greatly increases an empire's chances of victory. A prepared and contiuously prepared position is a tough nut to crack because while your enemy is busy trying to destroy or dodge those defenses they are TARGETS and nothing more. All my characters started with Medium Assault and Engineering. Starting off they made a boatload of exp just repairing Phalanx Turrets and picking people off with them just by keeping them up and running and then manning them.

All that said, I happen to agree with you about the exp thing though. Don't see a need for it. I sure hope they do something sweet for Engies and CEs when they get to the advanced skills though. :D

[Warborn]

stuff

CE doesn't count. I guess it was sort of implied and I'm an idiot for not actually saying it straight out, but I don't refer to Combat Engineering as support, and I don't believe it's what the original poster had in mind with this. CEs kick ass, and have a ton of incredibly useful tools at their disposal. And, yes, it can be a full time job maintaining your mine fields/spitfire nets/motion alarm setups. I'm completely aware of how time consuming it can be to be a CE, and really hope one day Adv. Medics get the same. But, for now, I just want to make sure you and anyone else who misunderstood me (through my own fault, I suppose) that CEs aren't the guys I'm referring to.

[Lithpope]

Warborn, fair enough Bro, I apologize for any implied insult. Hehe, guess I am a little touchy becaue I am a dedicated CE for the most part and take pride in my work :cool:

[noodles]

warborn and lithpope- You are both right about CE and my original post wasn't inteded for CE or hacking. CE already gets exp for kills from deployables. And hacking pretty much pays itself off for all the selfish uses for it, i.e. hacking equipment terminals, nme vehicles, etc. I'm not even saying that it should specifically be exp. There are really good argumenitive points against it. I'm just saying that it seems like engie's (and med's) just deserve more insintive.

The argument about br 20 is almost pointless because exp for anything would be pointless for a br 20. I understand that the insintive is still lost because, lets face it, killing someone is way more fun than repairing something. But if not exp than some kind of buff, or something.

[2mthsTheSniper]

How about (if it could be implimented) a system where by (and this is going to sound a bit RPG I know) the more an ADV medic (say) uses their skills, the quicker they get at it. Thus an incentive to start with and a reward once you've used it a certain amount.

If you wanted to go more RPG (and I know noone will) you could make it such that once a certain point is reached the either the basic abilities are available without spending any cert points (bit too much of a bonus) or perhaps you get the Adv cer points back. This would only be achievable through significant gameplay but would reward players and be a little extra in the game.