The Riddle of Command

[Airlift]

What would you do in these three scenarios:

1. You're assaulting a base under a commander you've worked with a few times before. He issues a command that in your estimation improves your squad's chances of winning but will surely result in your death. There are no AMSes supporting the attack and no advanced medics around to revive you, so if you comply you are out of the fight but you may come out the hero.

2. You're in the same situation as above, but you estimate that the order you're given will result in your death and nothing else.

3. Same situation, but now you are the commander. You figure that one sacrifice charge will push your side over the edge to victory. The problem is that when you issue the order, the soldier refuses to comply.

[edited for more gooder grammar and spleeling]

[protocol_alpha]

1 i dont know
2 i dont know
3 Shoot him myself ...:rofl:

[Civilian]

1. You're assaulting a base under a commander you've worked with a few times before. He issues you a command that in your estimate improves your squad's chances of winning but will surely result in your death. There are no AMSes supporting the attack and no advanced medics around to revive you, so if you comply you are out of the fight but you may come out the hero.

Imo, this is pretty simple. If it results in your squad(and when I say your squad, I mean your "clan" or "outfit") taking a base, especially when you are given an order, you should follow it. If you are joined up with a mix squad, I might think twice about following such an order. But, I would likely still follow it.

2. You're in the same situation as above, but you estimate that the order your given will result in your death and nothing else.

In this case, once again, I would always follow the orders of my outfit commander. If I'm in a mix squad, I would be unlikely to follow that command.

3. Same situation, but now you are the commander. You figure that one sacrifice charge will push your side over the edge to victory. The problem is that when you issue the order, the soldier refuses to comply.

I would either:

A: Give the order to another soldier, willing to make this sacrifice.

or

B: Assuming there is another commander in squad, you always have the option to sacrifice yourself. And a good leader leads the way.

And if this soldier were in my "outfit" there would be severe reprecussions for ignoring an order. If he is just someone that joined up with my squad, I don't think there is alot you can do.

[SmokeJumper]

<personal opinion only>

1) Obey my commander.

2) Obey my commander. I signed on for the duty. It's my fault if I picked a bad leader. I'll quit after the battle is complete or when there's a lull that allows him to look for replacements.

3) Tell the person to charge and that it's critical. If he disobeys again, eject him from my squad and start looking for replacements.

See? I belong on the TR. :)

[SleightOfHand]

No, the TR mercilessly guns them down. The NC doesn't care if they obey or not because they want absolute freedom.
The VS designs a device based off of ancient Vanu technology to see if they should kill him, kick him, or leave him.

[txMaddog]

Hmmm...interesting questions. I assume I've had time to think about the situation and it's not one of those middle of a firefight snap decisons.

1. I do it. I don't mind taking one for the Team (or whatever).

2. I do it. Then ask the person WTF was that supposed to accomplish??

3. Before battle I appoint a co-leader and make sure everyone knows the chain of command. I'd do what's needed for the Team and rely on my co-leader to handle the situation til I got back on site.

[grunkfest]

1. Conform and obey.

2. Conform and obey.

3. Order all other members of the squad to shoot the disobedient. If the damage is shared out between the whole squad, grief points per soldier shouldn't be too much. Re-issue order to the squad member who fired on the dissident last.

I too will play TR. Conform or die - it's pretty simple really.

[Sputty]

For `1 and 2 I'd follow and then if 3 I'd ask him again, kill him then kick him out of the squad..there...problem solved. I'd make sure I'd have someone I know well with me to make sure people understand the "chain of command" unless he was in my outfit or whatever then I'd just go on my own if tehy didn't do it and hope someone else follows me.

[Zatrais]

1.) I'd follow the order

2.) Yup, if i join a squad and the commander sends me off to die i'll do it.. the commander will learn from having a sqaudmemeber die needlessly

3.) I'd shoot him myself for treason against the republic and cowardism hehe.

:trrocks:

[Sputty]

Originally posted by grunkfest

3. Order all other members of the squad to shoot the disobedient. If the damage is shared out between the whole squad, grief points per soldier shouldn't be too much. Re-issue order to the squad member who fired on the dissident last.
.
There are no grief points in squads.
Edit: Noticed a grammar error and I can't have those!!!

[EineBeBoP]

Originally posted by grunkfest

....3. Order all other members of the squad to shoot the disobedient. If the damage is shared out between the whole squad, grief points per soldier shouldn't be too much. Re-issue order to the squad member who fired on the dissident last.

I too will play TR. Conform or die - it's pretty simple really.

I too will play TR. Confirm or Die- It's pretty simple really.


Only a damn TR soldier would do such a thing. No second chance? no warning?? (i unerestand if this in a firefight) The TR are brutal, cold, heartless animals. thats why i joined the NC :D

1. Follow orders
2. With my outfit (clan squad etc.) I follow w/o question take 1 for the team

3. sacrafice myself, make sure i have a safe 2nd in command






***** no offense to any individuals, I just dont think that what the TR belives in is moraly correct*****

[Squeeky]

1. You're assaulting a base under a commander you've worked with a few times before. He issues a command that in your estimation improves your squad's chances of winning but will surely result in your death. There are no AMSes supporting the attack and no advanced medics around to revive you, so if you comply you are out of the fight but you may come out the hero.



Thats the whole idea right? I wouldnt be selfish, and i would in any case, any way shape or form, i would ALWAYS follow orders.

2. You're in the same situation as above, but you estimate that the order you're given will result in your death and nothing else.I would follow orders

3. Same situation, but now you are the commander. You figure that one sacrifice charge will push your side over the edge to victory. The problem is that when you issue the order, the soldier refuses to comply.

I would kick him from my squad, making sure not to work with him again.

[Airlift]

Ok, here's my followup question:

You are putting a squad together and have one open spot remaining. Two players that you have worked with before are interested. One is as uberleet a player as you have seen, with unmatched reflexes and the aim of a bot. Unfortunately, he knows how good he is and as a result has a problem following orders. Guy number two is not really a good twitch player and doesn't have good aim either, but he is all about the team and will follow even suicidal orders without hesitation or question.

Who do you put in?

[Sputty]

You forgot to kill him first, Squeeky. And I'd probably pick the the worse, but more dependable soldier. I don't want any asses going around and jsut getting in the way of a planned attack.

[EineBeBoP]

I kick out Squeeky and invite both

There! problem solved!

:D

[Mold]

3.) I'd shoot him myself for treason against the republic and cowardism hehe.

Just make sure that he isnt expecting it or you might end up the one whose got to respawn!

1) ya id do it, i would just be more catious then usual.
2) id do it, then haul ass back and do it again
3)lie about the severity of the situation, then if he goes let him die, and then kick him from the squad after stealing any BEP's he might get. If he doesnt go then id kick him from the squad, fall back (since he was the only hope acording to the Q) and let him rot since he cant get into the transport.

hows that for TR evilness >:]

[Zatrais]

In response to Airlift

Guy nr 2

he can always carry ammo... and hes reliable.

If the guys gun isn't pointing the way i tell him to and he dosn't follow orders whitout bitching then theres no room in my squad even if its 8 slots free.

[CrazyJoker]

1. I do it gladly. I've done it many times before in BF42. In fact many times the only way that you can capture a base in the city maps is to throw yourself on a flag and hope you can get it neutral before you die.

2. I do it because I'd never put myself under the command of anyone I didn't trust. Odds are they know what they're doing and they have heard (on the comm) or seen something in the big picture (map) that I haven't.

3. I kick the guy out of my group cutting him off from any BEPs gained from the group and then I do what needs to be done myself. Not before turning over the field command to another officer though.

[Mold]

id pick guy 2 for the squad, and then tell mr. elite to follow us if he wants to loot our corpses

[Incompetent]

1.) follow orders
2.) follow orders
3.) send someone else and make sure he is never in a squad with me again
4.) take the teamworker

[closed4repairs]

1. You're assaulting a base under a commander you've worked with a few times before. He issues a command that in your estimation improves your squad's chances of winning but will surely result in your death. There are no AMSes supporting the attack and no advanced medics around to revive you, so if you comply you are out of the fight but you may come out the hero.

Follow orders

2. You're in the same situation as above, but you estimate that the order you're given will result in your death and nothing else.

Follow orders but accidentally;) knock him with my harasser at a later date

3. Same situation, but now you are the commander. You figure that one sacrifice charge will push your side over the edge to victory. The problem is that when you issue the order, the soldier refuses to comply.

a bit less accidentally;), mow down the soldier with a vanguard, fully explaining my justification for doing so...

[chaos1428]

1: Follow orders without hesitation.
2: Have him repeat the plan to me, so maybe he can see how stupid it sounds. If not, follow orders.
3: Switch my Punisher to secondary fire-mode, and put a rocket between his goggles, and order everyone to salvage whatever equipment they can off his corpse.

Next scenario? I would definately have to take the Team Player over the crack shot, anyday. I would explain to crack shot that there is a squad up ahead that is looking for someone like him, and he should run to catch up. With any luck, he could eat a few bullets from the enemy for us :D

[Warborn]

1. You're assaulting a base under a commander you've worked with a few times before. He issues a command that in your estimation improves your squad's chances of winning but will surely result in your death. There are no AMSes supporting the attack and no advanced medics around to revive you, so if you comply you are out of the fight but you may come out the hero.

1 - I'd do what the Commander says. Death is temporary.


2. You're in the same situation as above, but you estimate that the order you're given will result in your death and nothing else.

2 - I don't know all of what is going on. While I may think it'll only result in my death, there's bound to be a bigger picture than what I'm privy to.


3. Same situation, but now you are the commander. You figure that one sacrifice charge will push your side over the edge to victory. The problem is that when you issue the order, the soldier refuses to comply.

3 - Try and talk him into it via private discussion. I'd tell him that if he does it, we will win, and he and the others brave enough to do it would be a hero. I suspect that'd work. If it doesn't then I'd warn him of the consequences of refusing. If that still doesn't work, I'd leave him out, go ahead with the plan, and then take whatever action I'm able to to to educate the guy in what it means to be a subordinate.

[cwal]

by following the order my not mean you would certainly die so i would do it
2. i would still do it without question if it would mean the best for my friends:D
3. u dont have time to tell him he would be saving the squad helping everyone i would say go and do it. he would know he would be saving everyone elses life.

[Ludio]

Response to first 3 questions:

If I was working in an outfit then I would follow orders/expect orders to be followed.

If not...

1. Yes, I help cap a base, why not.

2. If it is completely and utterly stupid, then I might not do it, but normally I would. oooh, I am dead, woe is me! As Warborn said, death is temporary and there are lots of things to kill.

3. I would explain that it is critical, if he doesnt follow orders then get someone else to do it, why bother killing a perfectly good squadmate if he is bad at following orders? I would chew him out/kill him once we got the base, but I sure would feel stupid if I killed him and then realized that I needed more men to take the base.



Response to question number 2:

Definately with the uberleet guy, he may not be dependable for suicide orders or even any orders, but thats why I have a whole sqaud, they can do that shit. The uberleet guy is the secret weapon that kills half the enemy squad before going down, then whatever is left we mop up. A whole squad of uberleet guys may not be so great because they couldnt coordinate at all, and might never get anything done (like capturing the base), but a couple of them as lone commandos would be great.

[Ludio]

Here is a question of my own:

What if you are in a squad (not outfit) and your commander is really bad (he is giving bad orders, getting people killed for nothing etc...). Your AMS just got destroyed so it is critical to take the base (or maybe it isnt, but you havent made any progress for the past 30 minutes so you really want to take the base).

What would you do?

This is sort of a mutiny question I guess, would you mutiny and if you did how would you do it.

[Airlift]

I would fight to my death and then leave the squad, explaining that I was going to find something else to do. Once the AMS is down, you have to regroup to get back anyway.

[Fire_Monkey]

Ya I'd choose the second guy, PS won't work if everyone decides to do whatever they want, not following orders and such.

[Fire_Monkey]

Bah didn't look at second page, obviously newbish, sry that was a response to his second question.

[Lexington_Steele]

1) follow orders.

2) follow orders.

3) give the isubordinate an order that he will follow and then kick him once the battle is over.


The fourth question depends on a number of factors.

I need to know is if the guy fun to play planetside with. If he is an ass and makes playing the game no fun for everyone in my squad then he is out. The second factor is how insabordinate is he? He can still be an asset to the squad if he cares about his squad being successful. The key is giving the uberleet player orders that you know he will follow/adjusting your command style to fit the material you have.

As long as I know the 1337 player won't be a complete ass and will generally look out for his teamates, the 1337 player is in.

[cwal]

i would go for the second guy who cant risk having the other guy either undermining your command or even worse getting everyone killed.

[cwal]

go with the second guy because he could make a huge blunder and get everyone killed

[Sputty]

:huh: Why would you go with him then?

[SandTrout]

1)Do it, I love suiside runs anyways. It's nice to see the enemy reaction, and heck, I might just make it.

2)ask the purpose, then (see answer 1).

3)Wound him once as a warning, then kick from squad if he continues to disobey.

[mistled]

1) I've got no problem charging the enemy.

2) See #1.

3) I'd shoot Nav once (because he would be the one to get such assignments). Then Nav would shoot me once, say he was kidding and go on the suicide run. :)

4) Depends on how fun they are to play with. If the 2nd guy is dependable, but boring as hell, I won't take him. If the l33t guy is just arogant, but is a blast to play with and I think I can steer his actions some, I'll see about working him in. So probably whoever has the quickest wit and a good sense of humor gets in. We can always work on your shooting skills later.

[Ludio]

Does no one want to answer my question?

:tear:

[Sputty]

I would do what he says then leave the squad..Why mutinize? Although, how'd he get CEPs if he's such a bad commander?

[Airlift]

Originally posted by Airlift
I would fight to my death and then leave the squad, explaining that I was going to find something else to do. Once the AMS is down, you have to regroup to get back anyway.

[mistled]

We wouldn't mutiny. We would go take that base though, even if that meant ad-libbing his plans on the fly. Afterwards, I just wouldn't join up with him again.

[Mazelmavin]

What if you are in a squad (not outfit) and your commander is really bad (he is giving bad orders, getting people killed for nothing etc...). Your AMS just got destroyed so it is critical to take the base (or maybe it isnt, but you havent made any progress for the past 30 minutes so you really want to take the base).

I am well used to similiar situations from years of playing MMOs.

Anyone who plays these games should knows that when a group gets whooped so bad it must regroup, it usually doesn't. This is because there is usually a reason for the whooping related to the people in the group. In fact, most groups, good or bad, that I was involved in eventually ended after a wipe out. Even if it was a good group, getting your ass handed to you seems to be a good time to leave, after a round of rezes, of course. The only thing that usually keeps a wipeouted group together is kinship (friends or guild(outfit)mates).

So my answer is that this hypathetical squad will be decimated in a matter of minutes, offering a wonderful chance to seek destiny elsewhere. Just like any other MMO.

[Dead Ben]

1. follow orders
2. follow orders
3. repeat the orders to see if maybe the person didn't catch it. Reprimand later appropriately. Never shoot your own guys seeing as how they can atleast be cannon fodder if the don't want to follow orders.

4. Take the mediocre teamplayer. Ordinary people can do extraordinary things if given the chance. Each player has the chance to make a mistake - the uberleet and the average joe. I'd rather have the dependable person.

[RageMaster]

I suspect anyone as a commander who shoots team-mates for not playing the way they want them to will end up with a minimal amount of CEP. Who is going to go under your command if you'll shoot them if you dont like how they're doing things? I ceirtainly wouldnt. If I thought my own judement call was better for the situation, I'd go on my gut instinct and forget the command decision. If they shot me for it, I'd never squad up with them again, its their loss IMHO ;-D

If I decided to go for CEP I'd gather some good local friends from the pub who are PlanetSide gamers, and start with a hardcore unit who works together, swap the command role around somewhat, create a highly skilled clan as opposed to one with overwhelming numbers. Focus on close teamplay, predicting each others moves and backing each other up wherever possible.

Sure, invite others in to make up your numbers, and keep on those who are actually contributing to your sucess, but shooting them if they won't take orders? Sounds like an incredibly Counter-Strike'ish thing to do to me. If you want your team-mates to respect your command decisions you gotta act with some degree of maturity methinks, and try and split yourself from the idiocy that occurs in other teambased friendly-fire FPS servers.

Eject the member from the squad if you don't like him, just dont be idiots. Team-Wounding is lame ass, regardless of the situation.

-RageMaster

[Zatrais]

If you join a squad and don't follow the commander you shouldn't be in that squad in the first place. You join a commander, it's the commanders way or the highway.

[Validuz]

Originally posted by SmokeJumper
<personal opinion only>

1) Obey my commander.

2) Obey my commander. I signed on for the duty. It's my fault if I picked a bad leader. I'll quit after the battle is complete or when there's a lull that allows him to look for replacements.

3) Tell the person to charge and that it's critical. If he disobeys again, eject him from my squad and start looking for replacements.

See? I belong on the TR. :)

I agree with everything but the "I belong to the TR"... so far, I'm a Vanu.

[Ratchet]

1. Obey my commander.
2. Obey my commander.
3. If he was an Indie (lonewolf player, or player not im my outift.) id get someone else to do it, and kick him from the squad. if he was in my outfit, I get someone else to do it, then tear him a new asshole on our squad forums.
4. take the team player.

[txMaddog]

Take the Team Player, I don't need someone second guessing me during a fight. Plus if everyone only takes 'l337 dudes' then how is the average player going to aquire the skills to become a 'l337 dude'??

[RageMaster]

I don't need someone second guessing me during a fight.

What about if his plan was better?

As a derivative of scenario 3...

5. You're a commander and issue and order to a squad member, who then preceeds to disregard it entirely for his own course of action. His course of action is sound and he becomes the main contributor to your victory. What would you do with the 'disobedient'?

Still kick him from the squad? He just 0wned everyone, he lead the squad to victory, and XP. As a commander, I think its best to realise when someone else has made better judgement on the situation. You learn from him, you understand what that player is good at and why he read the situation better than you did. You talk to them after the battle and get to an understanding on how best to work together as a team and learn how he'd like to be implemented in the next siege.

He's satisfied because he's playing how he want's to play, you're satisfied because its working for your squad. At the end of the day its just a game, I dont want to log on and take orders from a commander who doesn't reckognise my skills and doesn't know where my strengths lie. Commanders I sit with will have as much respect for me as I do for them, and won't force me to do things if I think its a bad idea.

In my eyes, this is what will make or break commanders in PlanetSide.

[Airlift]

Good variation. My answer is this:

If the guy's plan was utterly brilliant, I would make him second command or at least a squad leader, provided that he agrees not toblatantly disregard orders in the heat of combat again. Outside the moment, there is always time to reassess, but when an entire unit is committed, you need to carry out the plan whether you have a better idea or not.

If the plan wasn't brilliant, and it was simply luck or leet play, I would thank him for his contribution and not invite him back next time.

[mistled]

5) It honestly depends on who it is, hot brilliant the plan was, and whether or not he's an arrogant sob about his plan working.

If he's a member of my clan, I ream him for making his commander look like a goof ;), and then probably promote him.

If he's not a member of my clan and he's mouthy about how my plan was stupid and his saved the day, then he's out and I won't play with him again. Can't have open dissention in the ranks, it's just not good for group morale.

But if he's not a member of my clan, has a brilliant plan, and then doesn't really mention that he saved the day by directly disobeying orders (or if he's good natured about it, either way... depends on the rest of his attitude), then I've no problem letting him stay in the group. The exception to this is if his disobeying orders got some of my other men killed because they didn't know what was going on. If you're going to change the battle plan on the fly, at least convey that to the people around you, so that they don't get slaughtered because they thought you were taking care of something that you aren't. If you get my men killed with no warning because you want to be the hero, you're out of the group right then, no questions asked. I don't care how brilliant you think your plan was.

[Dead Ben]

Issue 5.

Still ream him for not following orders.

Whether his plan is successful or not doesn't matter, when he's under your command he should take orders from you. Once he does it once, he'll do it again, and it may not always work out right.

Sure it was good that his plan worked but to have cohesiveness you have to have some sort of pecking order.

I'd praise the plan that worked but also let him know that further disobeyed commands with result in disciplinary problems for him if he is in my outfit.

If he is always coming up with better plans or thinks he can then we can discuss his usefulness in that regard and work with it then but not on the battlefield.

[Tobias]

1) Im a sniper, and if he wants a lightly armed and armored guy to assualt something, then hes cracked brained.
2) see above.
3)He was showing willfullness, this is not allowed, send him for processing.

[tazz]

It all depends on the situation.
Have any of you played Natural Selection (http://www.natural-selection.org), well if you have then you might know what i mean, for this following reason:
You shouldnt have to follow your commanders every need, for he may or isnt with you, therefore you should be able to 'translate' his command into your situation. In other words change his order to comply with your situation.
Such as an unforseen tank that your commander doesnt know about, you should be able to act accordingly(not great example).

And also using Natural Selection (http://www.natural-selection.org) as an example again, if an order doesnt make sense you should still follow your commander, as he probably will have a better idea of the battle field, and it will probably work out the why later on.

[RageMaster]

Tazz speaks much sense.

Though I think its the commanders responsibility to make everyone in the squad happy, if the trust is there and an individual squaddie can end up owning some serious ass, he should be given the opportunity to. And if he's proved himself as a successful lone wolfer, as a commander I'd end up letting him 'free-roam' if that is the best way he can contribute to the squad's success.

If he isnt the strongest team-player, but can kick some Varu / Conglomerate ass on behalf of our team I'd rather have him under my squad doing what the hell he likes. I can always invite other more team oriented players and I can and still enjoy the benefits of one kickass-mo'f**ka in my squad. I can see only benefits to having a player like this.

You just adapt, make that soldier exempt from specific orders and rake in the XP from more victories.

I'm sorry, if any commander DIDNT want that sort of player in their squad, I'd ceirtainly take them off your hands and keep them happy.

[Ludio]

Well Tazz and RageMaster hit the nail on the head. You want teamwork with flexibility.

Has anyone read Enders Game? In the book Ender has to go to a military accademy where they train in a game. The accademy is split into teams and the compete as training/weeding out good generals from bad. Ender makes the best squad becuase he doesnt have mindless drones who just follow formations and work as a team. He splits his team up into individual squads that can work independently. He is a good leader because he doesnt give orders all the time.

Thats why squads/platoons would work well with this model. They have commanders (and probably second/third for replacments), but they dont need him, they can work without him. The commander makes sure everyone is doing their own thing in a way that helps the team. A skilled commander doesnt make a msterfull battle plan. He makes sure people are doing what they are good at.

Of course a commander has the larger perspective to think about, and gives orders, but he isnt god. He is someone who is directing the flow of combat. Commanders also have to make the game fun because we have to remember this is a game. We dont want to spend 20 hours doing guard duty for the commander just in case (I know its hyperbole).

In the end commanders are important, but they arent the only person who matters.

[mistled]

Orson Scott Card is the man.

"There is no teacher but the enemy."