Is Lasher A Spam Weapon?

[SuperBallz]

Thumper + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

Rocklet Rifle + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

Reaver + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

Flail + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

Burster Max + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

SkyGuard + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief

BUT

Lasher + Spam + Friendly Fire = NO Grief

What Is Up With This?

I Think That Lasher Should Cause Grief!
All other Weapons Do With Their Splash Damage.
And Since It Lashes Backwards The Shooter Would Get Hurt :D , Well At Least Till They Fix It. :P

It Is Not Fair For Their Weapon, To Be Bias With Its Lash, Other Weapons Hurt Friendlies Lashers Should Too.

[Angel_of_Death]

True, all other weapons cause grief with their spalsh damage...

Which is why Lasher's do lash damage.

[Dharkbayne]

A. Your sig is extrememly annoying, contrary to popular belief, most people will read it even if it DOESN'T have giant red letters.

B. There's a difference between lasher AOE and thumper/pounder ect. AOE, lasher hits EVERYTHING on the way to the destination, while the others only have splash damage at the destination. If lasher lashed friendlies, it would all the friendlies on the way TO the target, including people standing next to you.

Example

O = friendlies S= shooter X = Target ~= shot
O O O O O O O
S~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
O O O O

It would have hit ALL of them, where as a direct damage (rifle) weapon wouldn't have, and a AOE (Explosive) weapon would not have hit any of them either.
Trust me, the lasher hit friendlies in beta, and it was a grief MACHINE.

Remember : The lasher orbs still do damage.

[SuperBallz]

But Why Does The Lasher Get To Pick Who It Hurt And Who It Doesn't?

Just Doesn't Seem Right.

[Onizuka-GTO]

It got IFF!! Its an advance weapon! its purple and VANU

:lol:

[Seer]

Superballz, the lasher used to lash friendlies way back when. It made it impossible to use. Imagine if, everytime you fired the rocklet, every friendly around you exploded regardless of the destination?

[Onizuka-GTO]

hey, that'll be funny....they should make something like that.... :lol:

[Pogostickx]

leave the lasher alone geezs (it's about time the lasher is actually good for once :-/ )...the flail TKing is the problem! make it so that it won't hurt the same empire as the shooter.

[Angel_of_Death]

But Why Does The Lasher Get To Pick Who It Hurt And Who It Doesn't?

Just Doesn't Seem Right.
Every gun (person rather) picks who it hurts and who it doesn't. Lash damage to all friendlies on route to the orb's destination would cause insane grief.

But no, maybe you're right. The Lasher should randomly damage friendlies and/or enemies. That does seem right:rolleyes:.

leave the lasher alone geezs (it's about time the lasher is actually good for once :-/ )...the flail TKing is the problem! make it so that it won't hurt the same empire as the shooter.
The Lasher was amazing at one point, and even before this latest patch has been good for what it is used for, and that's indoor fighting. Make the Flail cause more grief, if anything....there's too many and it's too cheap as it is.

[SilverLord]

leave the lasher alone geezs (it's about time the lasher is actually good for once :-/ )The lasher has always been a really good weapon. You just never see anyone using it effectively as the VS are now. It is bugged, and that of course is NOT fine. I would like the bug fixed and i sure do know everyone else does that has to fight the VS and can't get close to the guy because he is an invulnerable sphere of damage.

[JakeLogan]

Well what if it did random lash damage to a friendly like 1 out of 10

using Dhark's Example except "L" means lashed friendly
O O O O L
S~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
O O O O O
I know it sounds stupid but in the end it might make the spammer n00bs watch their fire.

[SilverLord]

Just fix the bugs and leave it how it was.

[Krinsath]

Again, for those wondering why the Lasher doesn't damage friendlies, your PS reasoning:

The armors of the three empires are made of different materials, but due to the technology of Vanu manufacturing (the race, not the empire) the suits are an identical composition across the empire (i.e. - every NC Rexo suit has the same materials in it as every other NC Rexo, and the materials are the same as what's in Agile and Standard and MAXes, just in varying amounts).

The Lasher's handgrip analyzes the materials present in the armor holding it and picks up it's residual charge. The orbs fired from the Lasher have an electrical signature that matches that armor. As a result, when the orb passes an armor of the same composition, the electrical charge is a relative neutral, meaning no path for the energy is formed. When it passes by a DIFFERENT armor composition (i.e. - an enemy), the difference causes a field imbalance and energy arcs from the orb into the enemy's armor, an effect commonly referred to as the "lash". Ancient Technology weapons exhibit similar characteristics (see cross-file: Maelstrom). This is also why you are lashed, then hit, as the circuit is made before the orb actually makes contact.

There is your PS reasoning on why the Lasher doesn't hurt friendlies.

Onto gameplay terms, the Lasher is, and always has been, a suppression weapon. It's SUPPOSED to be "spammed". The machine gun is a horribly inaccurate weapon, but if you put enough lead in an area, something will be hit. The Lasher was never designed to be a pinpoint weapon, you need look no farther than projectile speed. Sure, it's faster, but still MUCH slower than a bullet.

The Lasher has bugs, they have been adjusted in the patch currently being tested. There was ONE, and only ONE, change to the amount of damage that the Lasher could inflict, and that was the lash within 5m. That has been put back, every other change had to do with ammo consumption and clip size and reload speed. While they affect TTK, they do not affect damage per shot. If I missed another damage buff somewhere, someone please refer me to the patch notes.

Everything else about the Lasher is the same as it was when it was the lame duck of the HA world.

[00AgentDuck]

Very nicely put Krinsath. :clap: :thumbsup: I like your explaination for lashes not hurting friendlies and I agree with you. And even if a weapon is a spam weapon, it still takes talent and skill in useing. The lasher does have it's strageties along with all other weapons. Also in some cases pinpoint is better then spamming, in others spamming is needed, and sometimes it takes a mix or middle of the two.

[Kaymon]

Krinsath - SmokeJumper would be impressed.

[LimpBIT]

Of course it should. If it didnt do splash damage to enemys what would be the point of having a grief system for the vanu? It would make it unfair for everyone else. The lasher owns everything it touches. At the least it could have a setback.

[Dharkbayne]

Of course it should. If it didnt do splash damage to enemys what would be the point of having a grief system for the vanu? It would make it unfair for everyone else. The lasher owns everything it touches. At the least it could have a setback.

Grief is a punishment for people who abuse/break the rules. Not for balancing weapons.

[SuperBallz]

Never Said That Lasher Was UnBalanced Or OverPowered, Or Anything Of The "Nerf The Lasher" Type Of Statements. I Was Just Asking a Question. Wanted Some Opinions.

I know Lashers Are Being Used More.

I Know Lashers Are Spam Weapons.

I Do Read The Forums.

Grief IS NOT Punishment For Abuse Or Breaking Of The Rules, Never Seen Exploiters Get Grief.

Surge Implant Has Know Bugs, Never Heard Anyone Getting Grief From Using It.

Anyway This Is NOT A NERF THE LASHER Thread, If Ur Gonna Whine, Do It On Another Thread, PLZ

Poll Looks Close.

[Krinsath]

Poll looks close, except if the Lasher *should* do such things, the vote would not be this close. When it's 70% for and 30% against is when you have a point in this game. ;) Simple majority won't cut it.

[Destroyeron]

Thumper + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief
Rocklet Rifle + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief
Reaver + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief
Flail + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief
Burster Max + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief
SkyGuard + Spam + Friendly Fire = Grief



That's an amazing list because I don't greif with any of those weapons, even when spamming. Your aim must really suck.

[SuperBallz]

Destroyeron, Your Saying My Aim Sucks? Don't See how U Can See Much Better, Post Something Related To Subject, take the Flames Elsewhere

But Let me break it down for u,

If u have a "Thumper" and r "Spamming" and u hit a "Friendly" u get "Grief".

D-O Y-O-U U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?

Sorry, For That, Just Trying To Slow It Down For Some :P

[Destroyeron]

Destroyeron, Your Saying My Aim Sucks? Don't See how U Can See Much Better, Post Something Related To Subject, take the Flames Elsewhere

But Let me break it down for u,

If u have a "Thumper" and r "Spamming" and u hit a "Friendly" u get "Grief".

D-O Y-O-U U-N-D-E-R-S-T-A-N-D?

Sorry, For That, Just Trying To Slow It Down For Some :P


naw, still don't

[SuperBallz]

Ya, Some Just Don't

[Majik]

I frankly hate the lasher, and refuse to use the damn thing, BUT I don't want every noob on the VS side griefing me to death either. I still say the devs should just make the HA weapons souped up versions of the MA. The TR already have this. Lose the JH and give them a nice big railgun, and lose the lasher and give us an oversized pulsar.

[Indecisive]

Need to down the clip and remove the 40000 yard lash with 10 dmg each.

JH and MCG = balanced

Lasher = wtfhax. So...cheap... you dont even have to TRY to kill someone. You shoot at this guy over here and get 50 extra kills.

[Happy lil Elf]

Super,
If you're going to try to do implied flames (and I try because thus far you've failed miserably at every attempt) don't try to pull the "take your flames elsewhere" card in the same post. Also, before trying to take the intellectual route, it's generally considered wise to have some idea what the hell you're talking about.

Grief IS NOT Punishment For Abuse Or Breaking Of The Rules, Never Seen Exploiters Get Grief.

Grief is there to stop, *gasp* griefers. You know, the morons that enjoy running around shooting people on thier own team for amusement? Griefing is, in fact, against the rules so in effect, yes, grief is there to stop people from breaking the rules.

Grief is not there to balance weapons. It never has been. Does it need to be factored in when trying to figure out if a weapon is useless or not? Unfortunately yes, it does.

[Indecisive]

My outfit mate got 500 grief once from the eviromental socitey for shooting a tree.

[SandTrout]

How about this, for every enemy the lasher lashes, it looses energy/damage. That way, it is more on par with other HA weapons by not being able to lash for a virtualy unlimited ammount of damage. Also, this sudgestion was made by my outfit-mates, the lash damage could go streigt to armor with no penetration value. That way, people wouldn't be dieing with 75 armor left.

[Krinsath]

lose the lasher and give us an oversized pulsar.

What do you think the Quasar is...even says so in the description.

From the august archives of our own PSU "Armors" section:

"The Quasar is a high-powered version of the man-portable Pulsar rifle."

Yep. That'd be a monkey wrench in that plan.

The Lasher and the lash concept is fine. There are some minor problems with the weapon's mechanics, but those aren't it.

All of the examples of "spam" weapons are using the weapon incorrectly. If you use a rocklet or a thumper in packed mass of friendlies, then yes, you'll get grief. They are designed to be used against fortified hard points of enemy resistance to break them up and allow other troops to clean up (hence SPECIAL assault). Not as a support fire when there are troops between you and the enemy.

The Reaver isn't supposed to be launching whole clips of rockets near friendly forces. They're hunter-killers and are supposed to be picking off stragglers and enemies in locations where the infantry can't reach.

The Burster and Skyguard are both supposed to be used against Air Targets, using them against ground targets is an incorrect usage and can easily result in grief.

The Flail SHOULD be used against selected targets and only when friendlies are not in the massive cannon's line of fire. Any one-shot kill weapon (let's not debate the Flail here) needs to be used with EXTREME caution, it's a trade-off for the insta-kill. Using it to randomly fire into an enemy CY without any reports on when to stop firing is not using the correct tactics for that weapon and will result in lots of grief really fast.

The Lasher is SUPPOSED to be used in the manner in which it is used. It's a suppression weapon, as has been mentioned. That's why the orbs are slow, to provide said suppression as opposed to bullets which are gone almost as soon as you fire them.

Also, if the lashes hit friendlies, you'd cripple the weapon and provide the exact argument you're using now to the Vanu. You complain that no area affect weapon is immune to hurting friendlies. Change it and now the Vanu can argue that no other empire's weapon causes damage to friendlies ON THE WAY to the target. Two-edged sword. Plus the VS who do not use the Lasher should not have to worry about every single Lasher out there, as no TR or NC has to worry about their friend with a HA weapon (except cloakers, since SOE decided that the green name should take five minutes to show up when you're targeting them).

The Lash is fine. The Lasher, bugs aside, is about right (reload time should be dropped to the "HA Standard" perhaps...if the bug fixes don't bring things into line).

[Onizuka-GTO]

mmm..You know everyone is complaining about a weapon that hasn't had any really change to it.
Only difference is the lashing goes out further, got extra 5 rounds.
That's it.
I'm surprised no one has complained about it before the changes, its still the same old. Just that more people are using it, seems to make people realise it can actually work as a Heavy Assault weapon....

[Krinsath]

Oni,

There is a slight bug with the lash restriction being removed. The lash is in all directions, so if you're behind the lasher currently, you still get lashed...through the firer in some cases. That gives the Lasher an unfair advantage in CQB as they just need to keep shooting and staying close and they can take down their opponent. No direct hits actually required...and if you manage to get a direct hit, it's a foregone conclusion.

That distance has been restored in the patch current on the test server as I recall. Anyone gone on there and seen what the Lasher is like now? Hmmmm? I play TR on the test server and don't have the time to do the conclusive tests you people seem to demand, but I'd be willing to bet that the Lasher is back in balance with where it's supposed to be now.

Feel free to prove me wrong though. :)

[Kyonye]

True, all other weapons cause grief with their spalsh damage...

Which is why Lasher's do lash damage.

and if you shooting an enemy and then lashed your ally then you should get some grief.

[Krinsath]

Due to the slow orb speed and the fact that it's supposed to be suppression fire, the Lasher would be a weapons lock and be more of a threat to the Vanu than everyone else, which is why the don't lash friendlies was put in to begin with.

People are trying to over-nerf the Lasher, which is merely suffering from a coding oversight that has already been fixed on the test server and from the fact that 2000+ people are using it.

The JH is largely the same as it was before (bug fix aside), now everyone calls it crap. Why? Because it no longer has tons and tons of people at every battle using it.

[Firefly]

Not true. Since I Boycott The Vanu! (http://www.theblackwidowcompany.net) I only see Jackhammers. And now that I don't do that massive bang-right-click-bang with how many shots? it's fine. I still die to way-way-way amounts of Jackhammers since I am an infiltrator primarily, but I'm JUUUUUST fine with that. Cuz my Cycler and rexo keeps them at range.

Have a nice day!

[GreyFox]

If it would lash friendlies it would quikly become a weapon noone uses.

[EarlyDawn]

I say no, it's absurdly overpowered but turning it into a useless grief machine is not the answer.

[SuperBallz]

Man, Yall make it sound like i was telling yall to mob into a spawn room Lashers blazing and not give a damn about Grief when the nme is shooting back getting lashed and hit and getting grief.

Now I May not be sure about this but, when u get hit directly it hurts, right?

But If U don't get hit directly u get lashed and u get splash damage if it hits close to u?

Cycler = Direct Hit, No Splash
Guass = Direct Hit, No Splash
Pulsar = Direct Hit, No Splash
OK

MCG = Direct Hit, No Splash
JackHammer = Direct Hit, No Splash
Lasher = Lash and Splash
A Little Off

TR AA = Direct Hit, No Splash vs ground troops(Coming Soon)
NC AA = Direct Hit Or Splash vs ground troops
VS AA = Direct Hit + Burn Or Splash and Burn vs ground troops
Getting Off

TR AI = Large CoF(RoF = Average)
NC AI = Medium CoF(RoF = Depends)
VS AI = Small CoF(RoF = Good)
Off

TR AV = Haven't Tried It
NC AV = Haven't Tried It
VS AV = Haven't Tried It

This Is Just My Opinion.
I Have Seen Numbers, I Am Talking BattleField Usefulness.

[Seer]

Super, the lasher does not do splash damage. And vanu using the lasher do get grief--the orbs are slow enough that you can be firing them and a friendly could step into their path. You've practically made the descent into incomprehensibility with your latest post. It has largely nothing to do with this thread.

[LimpBIT]

yeah it kinda didnt super. Try to stay a little bit more on topic. It should do splash damage just had to say that. Would be to unfair if it didnt.

[BadAsh]

Cycler = Direct Hit, No Splash
Guass = Direct Hit, No Splash
Pulsar = Direct Hit, No Splash
OK

MCG = Direct Hit, No Splash
JackHammer = Direct Hit, No Splash
Lasher = Lash and Splash
A Little Off

1. The Lasher does not do any splash damage.

2. The �lashing� effect was intended to help compensate for the slow travel speed of the weapon�s energy projectiles and give the weapon it�s unique functionality. The lashing does not fully compensate for the faster TTK of both the JH and MCG. While the lasher user is �spraying the area� with slow lashing orbs the JH or MCG user is �spraying the lasher user�. If you have a JH or MCG and are facing a Lasher 1v1 and get killed, you got out fought. Yes, I said that right. You got out fought. You managed to either not move or move in a predictable pattern so the slow orbs actually hit you while at the same time managing to miss with the hypervelocity rounds of the JH or MCG. Congratulations.

The biggest thing the Lasher buff did was alter the populations. So now rather than 3 Lashers getting rushed by 8 Jackhammers, you have 8 Lashers getting rushed by 3 Jackhammers. With the new Rexo and slightly buffed new Lasher some people are just going to have to rethink the old tactic of: Select triple shot, rush/surge in, point, and rack up easy kill. For these guys the easy game just got hard. Hence the chagrin.

[Indecisive]

Heh. When was the last time you played tr or nc dude? The lasher is absurd. I have no fucking clue what possested them to do such a thing.

You cant shoot at your feet and kill everyone around you. Sick.

Yuo got served!

[KIAsan]

The lasher is absurd. I have no fucking clue what possested them to do such a thing.

Ok, I couldn't resist any longer. How about sheer incompetence is what possesed them.

The "don't lash close" and the "don't lash friendlies" features are redundant, just as you supposed. Removing the "don't lash close" restriction will likely result in almost no change since the projectile barely has time to create a lash before that limit was reached anyway...but I'll go ahead and remove the "don't lash close" constraint because it's just simply not important anymore.


Not a lot of thought went into this decision, it was just an oh, by the way...... Now what was it they said about good intentions, something about paving and the road to hell?

[SuperBallz]

Grief is there to stop, *gasp* griefers. You know, the morons that enjoy running around shooting people on thier own team for amusement? Griefing is, in fact, against the rules so in effect, yes, grief is there to stop people from breaking the rules.

Grief is not there to balance weapons. It never has been. Does it need to be factored in when trying to figure out if a weapon is useless or not? Unfortunately yes, it does.


Santa's Lil' Helper, Sry For The Fustrated Snap(Lost the happy but the happy is back)

This Isn't A NERF Thread.
Not a Bash The Lasher.
There r plenty of threads that do that.

So thx for the feedback.

[Happy lil Elf]

Santa's Lil' Helper, Sry For The Fustrated Snap(Lost the happy but the happy is back)

This Isn't A NERF Thread.
Not a Bash The Lasher.
There r plenty of threads that do that.

So thx for the feedback.

Meh I was just pointing out that grief was put in the game to stop people from griefing (which is against the rules). However grief does need to be factored in when looking at balancing a weapon. Putting that much grief on a weapon designed for indoor combat (and inarguably that's what HA is supposed to be for) would ruin the weapon.

So what is the solution for the Lasher? I don't pretend to know, but I do know that making the lash affect friendlies would make the gun virtually worthless. Who knows, it might even still be useable in coordinated firing teams. Of course the level of coordination this would require does not readily exist in PS except in a select fre outfits. In either case, it would put the VS at a serious disadvantage in comparison to the other two empires.

Honestly, I'm begginning to agree with people who say HA is a just plain flawed concept. In a game with respawn timers, putting weapons in that can kill someone that quickly is, at least in my opinion, a mistake.

The more time I spend in fights as a grunt the more I'm begginning to believe that the TTK on virtually all weapons is too short, or rather that it's too short for the limited amount of mobility you have as infantry. Now this is obviously an opinion that is more than open to debate. However the thing I loved about various other FPS MP games is that if someone gets the drop on you oftentimes you actually live long enough to come back from that disadvantage and if you're good, win. In Planetside you can literally die before you even react to the first shot landing. While that isn't exactly a bad thing by itself, the fact that there are imposed repsawn penalties, that increase with the number of times you die, strikes me as ludicrous.

Would making it take longer to kill people solve that problem? Possbily. But in a game where you can easily have 90-100 people fighting over the same small (at least relativley small) base, if people [i]didn't[/i die quickly it could easily break the game.

So what is the answer to this particular issue I have with PS (and one of many I might add)? In reality, there probably isn't one. Quick kills and respawn timers are some of the foundation blocks the rest of the game is built on, you can't really change them without it affecting a great many other things, not that those will probably ever change significantly in any case.

My own personal solution is simply to spend every moment I can in a Lightning or vehicle of some sort :p

[BadAsh]

Honestly, I'm begginning to agree with people who say HA is a just plain flawed concept. In a game with respawn timers, putting weapons in that can kill someone that quickly is, at least in my opinion, a mistake.

The more time I spend in fights as a grunt the more I'm begginning to believe that the TTK on virtually all weapons is too short, or rather that it's too short for the limited amount of mobility you have as infantry. Now this is obviously an opinion that is more than open to debate. However the thing I loved about various other FPS MP games is that if someone gets the drop on you oftentimes you actually live long enough to come back from that disadvantage and if you're good, win. In Planetside you can literally die before you even react to the first shot landing. While that isn't exactly a bad thing by itself, the fact that there are imposed repsawn penalties, that increase with the number of times you die, strikes me as ludicrous.

I have to disagree with the argument that in other FPS games people live longer. In Battlefield 1942 you can drop anyone in the game with 2 �head shots� with any weapon including a pistol and with 1 single shot from a sniper rifle. One player can kill 5-7 with 1 clip of ammo. Grenades in BF 1942 KILL everyone in the blast radius. So it�s not splash damage radius it�s a killing radius those weapons have. In RTCW there are �head shots�, insta-gib grenades, one shot sniper rifles, and critical knife stabbing from behind (instant kill).

Also in BF1942 many of the lighter vehicles and even tanks tend to be killed with single bomb hits, mines, or tank rounds. With mines and critical panzerfaust shots an infantry soldier can instagib a Tiger or M-10 (heaviest tanks in the game).

PS has no head shots and no critical hits on personnel or vehicles. In PS you live longer and have more time to react.

PS is a one of a kind game that loosely fits into the FPS mold. Players of PS tend to be more of the thinking type as opposed to the twitch style players and are quite proud of this fact. I�ve even seen the term �death matcher� used in a derogatory manner to describe that different style of play. It�s seen as �lone wolf� mentality and is frowned upon. Cries of �get some support certs� can be heard here in the PSU forums as well.

The reality of this situation is that most PS players don�t spend all their time mastering weapons. They spend time flying, driving, cloaking, scouting, hacking, etc. So logically the guy who ONLY kills will eventually get better at it. And here is where I see a chunk of the �problem� with HA.

HA is slightly more powerful than MA. So a very skilled �death matcher� armed with HA will kill a highly skilled �death matcher� armed with MA. After the fight the MA will be dead and the HA will walk away with 20-30% of his health/armor intact. This is hardly domination, this is more like �squeaked by� with a win. The above example considers optimum range for the HA weapon. Stretch the fight out over medium or long range and MA actually has the faster TTK. So again this is hardly HA domination.

The real problem is that most PS players invest their time building other skills rather than pure death match type skills. Some few players do develop these death match skills to high levels. So what I think you guys are bitching about are these players that are actually better as something than you are.

The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics.

The other day I was guarding the back entrance to a base with about 7 other guys. We all had lashers. Some NC goober opens the door, surges in, and promptly gets melted. I managed to land the �killing shot/lash� so he sends me a hate tell about how I need the lasher to kill and have no skill. Um, NO, you rushed 8 guys with weapons drawn� he would have died using that tactic against 8 guys with beamers.

Later on during that same siege I find a NC player crouching on top of a box in one of the rooms under our base. He has a punisher and only reacted to me when I started hitting him with lasher orbs. I strafed to one side while keeping my aim on him. He died quickly. Then I get the hate tell. �I wish we had an uber-weapon too�. Um, moron, you sat still, did not move, did not shoot until you started getting shot, managed to miss with every single shot with your punisher and then blame the lasher on your getting owned? BTW, the Punisher using the plasma nade then full auto mode still can consistently beat down a Lasher in a 1v1 duel.

The other day some moron whined to me about the Lasher claiming it could allow anyone to kill 3 players in a 1v3 situation. So my buddy and I challenged him to some 2v1 dueling. He accepted and we loaded him down with all the lashers he could stash in his locker. My buddy and I equipped ourselves in agile armor with sweepers. We did not use medic kits or implants, but allowed him to use whatever he wanted. He went with Lasher, Rexo, Surge, medic kits. Anyway, after spanking him 8 times in a row he left. I was getting tired of waiting for his surge to reactivate anyway. Oh, and neither of us died. Not once.

Um, n00bs, it�s not the lasher. It�s not HA. It�s you not being as elite as you think you are. Spend less time flying in your reaver, driving your AMS, and snooping around in your MAX or infiltration suit and learn to AIM and STRAFE as Infantry. Otherwise quit whining about getting owned as infantry. I know this is common sense, but someone had to freaking say it.

[Dharkbayne]

It's not the actual lasher that's the problem, it's the fact that 9/10 vanu have one. The 10th one was killed while trying to reload his lasher.

[noxious]

I have to disagree with the argument that in other FPS games people live longer. In Battlefield 1942 you can drop anyone in the game with 2 �head shots� with any weapon including a pistol and with 1 single shot from a sniper rifle. One player can kill 5-7 with 1 clip of ammo. Grenades in BF 1942 KILL everyone in the blast radius. So it�s not splash damage radius it�s a killing radius those weapons have. In RTCW there are �head shots�, insta-gib grenades, one shot sniper rifles, and critical knife stabbing from behind (instant kill).

Also in BF1942 many of the lighter vehicles and even tanks tend to be killed with single bomb hits, mines, or tank rounds. With mines and critical panzerfaust shots an infantry soldier can instagib a Tiger or M-10 (heaviest tanks in the game).

PS has no head shots and no critical hits on personnel or vehicles. In PS you live longer and have more time to react.

PS is a one of a kind game that loosely fits into the FPS mold. Players of PS tend to be more of the thinking type as opposed to the twitch style players and are quite proud of this fact. I�ve even seen the term �death matcher� used in a derogatory manner to describe that different style of play. It�s seen as �lone wolf� mentality and is frowned upon. Cries of �get some support certs� can be heard here in the PSU forums as well.

The reality of this situation is that most PS players don�t spend all their time mastering weapons. They spend time flying, driving, cloaking, scouting, hacking, etc. So logically the guy who ONLY kills will eventually get better at it. And here is where I see a chunk of the �problem� with HA.

HA is slightly more powerful than MA. So a very skilled �death matcher� armed with HA will kill a highly skilled �death matcher� armed with MA. After the fight the MA will be dead and the HA will walk away with 20-30% of his health/armor intact. This is hardly domination, this is more like �squeaked by� with a win. The above example considers optimum range for the HA weapon. Stretch the fight out over medium or long range and MA actually has the faster TTK. So again this is hardly HA domination.

The real problem is that most PS players invest their time building other skills rather than pure death match type skills. Some few players do develop these death match skills to high levels. So what I think you guys are bitching about are these players that are actually better as something than you are.

The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics.

The other day I was guarding the back entrance to a base with about 7 other guys. We all had lashers. Some NC goober opens the door, surges in, and promptly gets melted. I managed to land the �killing shot/lash� so he sends me a hate tell about how I need the lasher to kill and have no skill. Um, NO, you rushed 8 guys with weapons drawn� he would have died using that tactic against 8 guys with beamers.

Later on during that same siege I find a NC player crouching on top of a box in one of the rooms under our base. He has a punisher and only reacted to me when I started hitting him with lasher orbs. I strafed to one side while keeping my aim on him. He died quickly. Then I get the hate tell. �I wish we had an uber-weapon too�. Um, moron, you sat still, did not move, did not shoot until you started getting shot, managed to miss with every single shot with your punisher and then blame the lasher on your getting owned? BTW, the Punisher using the plasma nade then full auto mode still can consistently beat down a Lasher in a 1v1 duel.

The other day some moron whined to me about the Lasher claiming it could allow anyone to kill 3 players in a 1v3 situation. So my buddy and I challenged him to some 2v1 dueling. He accepted and we loaded him down with all the lashers he could stash in his locker. My buddy and I equipped ourselves in agile armor with sweepers. We did not use medic kits or implants, but allowed him to use whatever he wanted. He went with Lasher, Rexo, Surge, medic kits. Anyway, after spanking him 8 times in a row he left. I was getting tired of waiting for his surge to reactivate anyway. Oh, and neither of us died. Not once.

Um, n00bs, it�s not the lasher. It�s not HA. It�s you not being as elite as you think you are. Spend less time flying in your reaver, driving your AMS, and snooping around in your MAX or infiltration suit and learn to AIM and STRAFE as Infantry. Otherwise quit whining about getting owned as infantry. I know this is common sense, but someone had to freaking say it.


Even though my primaries are both VS I do think the Lasher was overbuffed a little too far. That fact aside, very good post.

[LimpBIT]

It's not the actual lasher that's the problem, it's the fact that 9/10 vanu have one. The 10th one was killed while trying to reload his lasher.

I couldnt have put it better. Great thing about TR and NC is we dont all use the same weapons. You will hardly ever see a MA VS.

[noxious]

I couldnt have put it better. Great thing about TR and NC is we dont all use the same weapons. You will hardly ever see a MA VS.


We have such a great MA...

Before the rexo buff I would at least use the Sweeper. But now it seems to take too many hits to kill a rexo and in 2 on 1 situations I'm at quite a disadvantage.

[Firefly]

It's not only that 9/10ths of the Vanu have a Lasher, it's that quite frequently they have over TWICE the population of the NC and TR combined.

[Happy lil Elf]

Got it, Bad. The lasher is fine. There's no issue with it. It's all because everyone else sucks.

Wrong, but interesting take on it I guess. The real problem with it as it stands you unwittingly pointed out in your pwn post. Here, lemme quote it for you.
The other day I was guarding the back entrance to a base with about 7 other guys. We all had lashers.
This is why there is so much disgust over the lasher. It's also the reason there was so much hate for the Jackhammer and, back in the days of Beta, so much hate for the TR MAXs/MCG. It's not so much the weapon that kills you instantly that raises hackles, it's the proliferation of said weapon.

Anyways, you're using more than a couple bad comparisons and some flawed arguemtns in that post, but I need to get to bed so if I'm bored tomorrow at work I'll dissect it for you. As far as the "You just suck, that's why you don't like HA." I don't think I'll get into that with you because quite frankly, it's a childish argument.

I just personally prefer games that focus on mobility over twitch skills. I enjoy PS because it offers that mobility, you just have to cert a vehicle. However it's rather annoying to turn a corner in your base on the way to the V-pad and get killed by a Lasher/MCG/Jackhammer user before you even have a chance to fully face them.

My issue is that in, say, Tribes for instance, the weapons were deadly, but you had much better ability to dodge them. In PS/UT/[WW2_FPS_game_127] the weapons are just as deadly, but your mobility is greatly reduced. I can hold my own in twitch games, they're just not as much fun for me as games where a fight between two very skilled people might take 10-20 seconds as opposed to 1-2 second "bouts" you see in most twitch style games.

[BadAsh]

It's not only that 9/10ths of the Vanu have a Lasher, it's that quite frequently they have over TWICE the population of the NC and TR combined.

Vanu use the lasher because what else are they supposed to use? The Pulsar? The Beamer? Now I know there are some diehard Pulsar fans out there, but the Cycler and Gauss Rifle are both superior IMHO and apparently that opinion is shared by many other Vanu. Either you pilot a vehicle or MAX or use a Lasher. Those are your viable options. The TR and NC have a MA option so many choose that.

The population swing is another matter entirely. Not much can be done about that. The pop shift went from NC-TR-VS to VS-NC-TR with the former "low team on the totem pole" switching positions with the old top dog. Interesting.

This is gettin a little too far off topic so check out my new thread if you wanna hear more of my ramblings... lol I can almost feel the anticipation... hehe.

Hasta.

[KIAsan]

I like this quote: "The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics."

I decided to test the theory, my being a support player type, with limited HA skills. Created my lasher character. I didn't squad with anyone, just went solo to every hotspot I could find. I went from BR0 to BR6, over 70 kills and only 24 deaths to infantry within 3 hours (about 4 base caps total). Now, I'm a fair shot, however being a support type, I'm willing to admit that I'm not the worlds best grunt, for me, 30 kills in an evening is a great run (and I do cert MCG). There is no way I could have done this with a BR0 TR and MCG. ANd before you say it, yes I did VR to get enough certs for MA/HA. BTW, this was with no implants.

So, either I became very skilled suddenly or for that 3 hour period in prime time, every TR and NC I ran into sucked. Hmm, maybe it was because of my overbuffed lasher. Heck, I ran into a tower, BY MYSELF, and proceded to own 5 poor TR on a stairwell. The poor dudes didn't have a chance. I have never done that well before.

[BadAsh]

I like this quote: "The notion that any unskilled player can grab HA and dominate and thus �ruin PS� is pure BS concocted to soothe the egos of players who got owned in a fight. It also soothes the frustration players who just are not good with tactics."

I decided to test the theory, my being a support player type, with limited HA skills. Created my lasher character. I didn't squad with anyone, just went solo to every hotspot I could find. I went from BR0 to BR6, over 70 kills and only 24 deaths to infantry within 3 hours (about 4 base caps total). Now, I'm a fair shot, however being a support type, I'm willing to admit that I'm not the worlds best grunt, for me, 30 kills in an evening is a great run (and I do cert MCG). There is no way I could have done this with a BR0 TR and MCG. ANd before you say it, yes I did VR to get enough certs for MA/HA. BTW, this was with no implants.

So, either I became very skilled suddenly or for that 3 hour period in prime time, every TR and NC I ran into sucked. Hmm, maybe it was because of my overbuffed lasher. Heck, I ran into a tower, BY MYSELF, and proceded to own 5 poor TR on a stairwell. The poor dudes didn't have a chance. I have never done that well before.

Not to dis you, but I've had similar killing sprees with MA. Anyway, the point of my argument that seems to have gotten lost here is:

Someone who practices/playes as infantry vs infanry more is going to be better than someone with less practice (not always of course but usually). So the guy who spent hours every day honing reaver skills will be at a disadvantage fighting someone who spent their time honing infantry vs infantry skills... and then there are the implants you use vs infantry and the ones you use as a pilot... that can be a huge factor once you land and dismount...

The guy with more practice, the right implants, the right equipment (weapons, medic kits, medic/eng self repair certs, etc) and better armor (rexo) has a significant advantage. To ignore than and blame HA for all your woes is... wrong.

It's been my experience in the game that the people who whine the most about the Jack or lasher or HA in general were amungst my easiest kills. They run straight at you and thus avoid none of my shots while I strafe, they are not accurate with their aiming, they rush into a hopless situation (like the NC rushing 8 men example I used earlier).

HA gives you a slight advantage 1v1, but it's not enough advantage to ensure victory over more than one opponent.

As far as the Lasher goes, I bet once the minor bug with it is corrected the whining will continue. It's inevitable.

Yesterday I took down a Lasher user with my jackhammer. He bitched to me about the tripple shot being cheap... um, I did not use tripple shot and dispite the fact that he emptied half a clip at me I was only mising about 50 armor on my Rexo. So much for the "lash of doom".

Another amusing thing... in dueling 1v1 the lasher is still the dead mans weapon of choice. Punishers (with 1 plasma nade), Cyclers, Gauss Rifles, Jackhammers, and MCG's still consistantly win... again, so much for the lash of doom...

[GreyFox]

Another amusing thing... in dueling 1v1 the lasher is still the dead mans weapon of choice. Punishers (with 1 plasma nade), Cyclers, Gauss Rifles, Jackhammers, and MCG's still consistantly win... again, so much for the lash of doom...
Agreed. But indoors in tight situations it becomes better. Especially in numbers, which affects the Lasher more then the other HA.

And btw about the MA discussion above, yeah I like the Pulsar. Before I started using HA, I had a Pulsar/Sweeper fav, and an Agile Pulsar fav, aswell as a Pulsar/Sniper fav.

But I rather use any of the other empire specific MA. Especially when it comes to medium range. The pulsar is quite good at Close range, but now I got the Lasher, so... And the Sweeper is better at close range I think (then the pulsar, atleast before the Rexo buff, havn't used Sweeper since it).

The thing is, I'd rather use the Boltdriver at the little longer medium ranges, where I would be better of with a Gauss or Cycler, but the Pulsar hardly scratch the armor...

Anyways the biggest reason the vanu has been successful lately has been the combination of Highest population, and a lot of Lasher users (because everyone wants to try it out. Even former TR and NC players).

And why even when a continent is poplocked on both sides and the Vanu still win, is, I think, a combination of the Vanu being so many they fill the continent so fast they got an initial advantage and the amount of lasher users are sometimes overwhelming, especially in defense. And because of population we usually got poplock on several continents. While the others might not.

And about the lasher being a spam weapon; It can be, especially in hallways. But it requires skill in 1on1 weapons, and even as a spam weapon to be succesful. It's not as much a spam weapon as the thumper. You will never be able to be as safe as you can as a thumper user.

[BadAsh]

Anyways, you're using more than a couple bad comparisons and some flawed arguemtns in that post, but I need to get to bed so if I'm bored tomorrow at work I'll dissect it for you. As far as the "You just suck, that's why you don't like HA." I don't think I'll get into that with you because quite frankly, it's a childish argument.


I apologize for the lack of clarity with my initial ramblings. Let me explain my point more clearly here before you dissect me for a point I was not trying to make.

My point is simply that:

Someone who practices as something gets better at it. HA is not that much more powerful than MA in a stand up 1v1 fight. Skill is a factor in determining a win or loss.

In my examples I was intending to show that much of the whining about the Lasher (and HA in general) is not warranted. I was not trying to suggest that the Lasher is currently a balanced weapon. In my examples that recently actually happened to me in game the �victims� the my Lasher died because of their crappy tactics and lack of skill more so than any over powered characteristic of the Lasher itself. If you can�t aim, don�t bother dodging/strafing, don�t have anti-infantry implants, don�t have an anti-infantry inventory load-out, mindlessly rush masses of enemy troops that are braced for an attack from your direction, or otherwise make poor battlefield decisions it just might not be the Lasher that�s the problem here. In each of my examples the Lasher was blamed and in each it was more about player stupidity than any real or imagined weapon balance issue.

So I don�t believe HA is a problem in PS. The �problem� (more a characteristic than a problem) is that PS attracts a wider variety of players rather than the �pure death matcher�. These other players will inevitably almost always get spanked by the �pure death matcher� in infantry confrontations. It�s got to do more with practice time invested, tactics utilized, and overall character build strategy. Also, players with the natural talent for infantry vs. infantry play are more likely to be drawn to the �pure death matcher� style of play. Someone who just sucks at it is more likely to give up and excel in other areas (Piloting, MAX, Support, etc.). It�s this practiced talent and certification/equipment/implant configuration that creates much of the gap in infantry vs. infantry confrontations. Hence, I don�t think removing HA from the game will change anything. It would simply shift the whining to other weapons.

[noxious]

Hence, I don�t think removing HA from the game will change anything. It would simply shift the whining to other weapons.


Exactly what I say whenever the "remove the HA" debate comes up.

[KIAsan]

Not to dis you, but I've had similar killing sprees with MA. Anyway, the point of my argument that seems to have gotten lost here is:

Your not dising me, I suck with HA, period (Thats why I'm a support weeinee). However, that makes my example more valid. I can get 70 plus kills as a lasher noob. I can't do that as a MCG or JH noob. I haven't practiced with the lasher. I'm not that skilled in HA. So, either I became instantly skilled when I picked up the laser, or everyone around me was brand new or really sucked, OR the lasher bug is overpowered.

The most likely of the arguments, the lasher is overpowered. And yes, I didn't have anywhere near the same luck when I tried this with TR and NC toons (told you my HA skills suck).

The point I am making, is you can't say this is all due to skill. People start whining when there is either a Perceived unfair advantage or and actual unfair advantage. In this case, there is an actual advantage.

Now, is this due to everyone toting a lasher? Or is it a case of lack of skill on all the TR and NC. I for one think it's a combination of Lasher bug and overpopulation. I'm sure many of those 70 kills were assists, since I know many of my kills were stolen by other lashers. And those 24 times I died to infantry, most were in 1 on 1 matchups.

Anyway, lasher is getting fixed, now folks will be whining about the surge nerf.

[FatSlice]

Krinsath, that's the best explaination I've heard. You must have purple blood running through those veins.

[Veteran]

Sorry, but if you need to use fanfic to explain game balance, something is wrong.

Lasher should have been replaced with a viable Heavy Assault weapon, barring the removal of Heavy Assault, which is now passe considering how many HA grunts are bitching their Depends off over the Surge changes.

[Krinsath]

Krinsath, that's the best explaination I've heard. You must have purple blood running through those veins.

Actually, my first and favorite character is Terran Republic, and I'm a staunch TR supporter..RED AND BLACK FOREVER! :D I just want people on OTHER empires so I don't have to worry about sharing kills as much. :) Yeah, it sucks that the past two days the TR have had 26% of the population, but I also am getting a decent number of kills as a result.

I play all of the empires so that I don't let my pro-TR feelings cloud my judgement about what is best for PS as a whole, and you can't make judgements based on two hours of play time on some other empire. Hence the many characters. I have a primary, an alt and a "what the hell" character for each empire that are played on a sort of rotating basis. I do like playing as the Vanu, but no more than any other empire. I really hate playing as VS at the moment...too many no talent n00bs clogging up the ranks. Spent a few hours flying around in a galaxy hacking six bases and only got four kills. I can get more as a TR sniper at any single base in about ten minutes, regardless of circumstances.

These are the only weapons that I think need to be tweaked:

1) Lasher needs to be bug fixed, plus the inventory problem where they can carry twice the ammo of the other two empires needs to be looked at.

2) Pulsar needs to be made into a useful long-range weapon.

3) JH needs to be made more effective than the Sweeper. A pellet spread swap would be the simplest rather than nerfing the Sweeper or buffing the JH damage.

4) TR MAXes need a better special ability. No other empire gives up mobility to use their weapons. With the Decimator being a 2 shot kill and mines being insta-kills, this is a ridiculous ability unless it somehow increases the armor of the MAX while deployed.

5) The Burster needs to be able to hit the flight ceiling. End of story. More needs to be done to that one, as it's the least feared of all the AA MAXes (I fly almost exclusively AGAINST the TR for this reason).

6) The Lock-On bug needs to be fixed already.

7) Infiltrators need a 2nd holster, even if all it can ever hold is a REK (sort of a built-into the suit sort of deal). Or at least an ability to record a macro to switch things around. The inventory management that infiltrators are forced to undertake is ridiculous. Yes, they're support soldiers...but they're still SOLDIERS. Give them a basic means of defending themselves.

8) Pilots need counter-measures. Not a post BR20 thing...ALL OF THEM. Starfires and Sparrows are insane. I don't mind if two or three MAXes get together and bring down an aircraft, but the Starfire simply owns anything in the air. Biggest XP mill in the game because most pilots don't even get time to bail out as fast as the Starfire kills them. I have no problem with Aircraft not being invulnerable, but they should have a damned chance if they're not hugging the ground to get away.

9) Something needs to be done to address the TR vehicle imbalance. It is ridiculous that to operate at 100% efficiency requires 50% more crew than the other empires. The 12mm guns do NOT add that much more to the damage equation. While it is nice that there is that versatility, it doesn't counter-act the economy of force that the NC and VS can muster by fielding half again as many of their tanks. Since they in theory stand an equal chance against each other, the TR will always lose. Fix this, make it so that if there is no third gunner, the empty weapon is controlled by the driver or SOMETHING. It's beyond insane to gimp almost every empire specific weapon that one side has.

Going on an Empire specific breakdown:

NC - Good pistol (choice of infiltrators everywhere), Excellent MA, decent HA (could be better, could be worse), excellent AV, good MAXes, EXCELLENT tank, monstrous buggy.

VS - Below average pistol (has it's strengths, but meh), Bad MA (again...the point of a short-ranged rifle is....?), insane HA (to be fixed), good AV, excellent MAXes, mediocre tank (always great as an AA platform if nothing else), below average buggy.

TR - Average pistol (RoF is crap, but it is accurate...my snipers use it because it conserves ammo), Excellent MA, decent HA, broken AV, near useless MAXes, decent tank 1v1...but it never is so crappy tank, mediocre buggy that nobody uses because it's barely faster than the tanks.

We have a good MA, which the NC also have...that's about it. TR needs some help, badly...but in the meantime, you guys in blue and purple run out there and get me BEP :) The TR weapons all suck, but damned if that bolt driver isn't effective ;)

[GreyFox]

If the Lasher would Lash friendlies, the weapon would become USELESS.

Consider this:

Grenades has an area effect WHEN it IMPACTS.
Missiles has an area effect WHEN it IMPACTS.
Lasher has an area effect WHEN it TRAVELS (the all so ever famous "Lash").

IF this LASH would lash friendlies. Which it must travel past if someone is standing next to you, or slightly infront of you, the weapon would become almost USELESS in crowded situations.

ATLEAST you can lob grenades OVER people.

And another thing:

Whenever you use the Lasher, your body is visible to the enemy you are attacking. This does not need to be true with grenades and other area effect weapons.

[Happy lil Elf]

Hence, I don�t think removing HA from the game will change anything. It would simply shift the whining to other weapons. This is exactly what I disagree with you on ;)