Upcomming Surge Changes!

[EarlyDawn]

Details (http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum16/HTML/002829.html)
Comming next patch... surge will holster weapons when in use. Discuss.

[Marsman]

Here is the snipet just so we have it here in the thread.Once we have the 2.5 update out the door, we begin testing on version 2.6. In that update, weapons will be automatically holstered when surge is activated, returning the implant to a travel/defensive function as opposed to an offensive one. You'll see this as part of Monday's Weekly Dev Activities post.Update: Some additional clarification by SporkA couple of specifics to point out:
1) Surge will holster any drawn piece of equipment: REK, BANK, ACE, etc.
2) Surge will need to be manually disabled (or disabled by stamina depletion, of course) before a weapon can be drawn. This is by design, since allowing a weapon to be drawn while still surged allows for many of the same combat benefits as before.

[JakeLogan]

Well guess the shotgun smurfs need to come up with a new tactic

[Desperado]

damn, i loved bailing over a busy tower and surging my way down in an insane suicide mission, taking about 7 or 8 people with me :evil:

[dscytherulez]

That's stupid. I'm opposed to this entirely and it looks like I'll be dropping surge, as even as it stands running from place to place is useful, closing gaps will now be undoable. Why can't they just fix the warping? What person uses surge defensively? If you waste time running away, you're more then likely to get shot in the back, not to mention you just gave your opponent the ability to stay alive longer. In a world in which you can not die, defensive actions are pointless.

Fix the warping, save the surge.

[Wraithlord]

Yes, all of them will start using the gauss rifle, which is arguably the best assualt rifle from close to medium range. All the newblets will start bitching about that, just wait and see.

At least I think its the best, I constantly rush lasher and mcg users with it and come out on top 3-4 times out of 5, but I do play a ton and know how to dodge and "exploit" the lag delay properly to avoid fire at close range (ie how to NOT take damage when your computer thinks you are behind someone but theirs doesnt). The cycler and the pulsar are far less effective at close combat due to their higher ttks.

Also something alot of you dont think about, the muzzle flash of a guass shoved in their face effectivley blinds them and makes yor target profile about twice as big as with a cycler or pulsar, that and the higher ttk make it a GREAT weapon, much more versitile than the jackhammer.

[Jaged]

No more surging boomer runs for my cloaker. :tear:

I think they should allow you to carry an ACE while surging. No one complains about that...

[Queensidecastle]

Friken idiots. Time to cancel my Subscription heh

[Wraithlord]

Hey man you can still surge into spawn room, draw it and plant it, run off then detonate it. You can just turn surge off when your there, it only takes about .3 of a second :)

[Queensidecastle]

I am astonished at the pure stupidity that it must take to pick that choice out of all the vastly superrior ideas in reguards to the surge/warping problem

Simply astonishing. Well, its been fun.. Time for another game it seems

[Dharkbayne]

Oh boo hoo Queensidecastle, you can't be a super rambo instakiller now, cry me a fucking river.

[Zatrais]

I love it! No more warping surgerbunnies fighting whitout any honor.

[Queensidecastle]

Thats actually kinda funny considering my main character is an Infiltrator. Try again?

At any rate, its time to hit them in the pocketbook and Cancel. You dont change something so core to the game this long after release because you are so god damn lazy you cant muster what is necessary to fix it properly. I just am not going to give these retards my money anymore. I suggest anyone that feels the same also "vote" with thier pocketbook

[Dharkbayne]

Surge was turning the game into quake, I'm glad it got nerfed, you can still use it to get behind the enemy quickly when outside and flank them, that's what I used it for when I had it anyways.

[FireWolf22]

I just want to point one thing out to you all. We, the NC, listen to you all bitching about us misusing surge. I see here in this post that not a single NC bitched about not being able to surge with the JH. I personnally don't use it. I do use the gause with surge. I also use the Cycler with surge. Have not used the pulsar with surge, dropped my VS guy before I got surge. I don't like that the devs are makeing surge like this. Also about the warping thing, I have a pretty monster machine and have never seen anyone warping around my screen, same on my not so monster machine. I have been standing behind VS AI maxs and them shooting the wall(and the rounds leaving marks on the walls) and still taking damage. So I don't understand how if it's your PC or your internet connection, it's the devs problem. I have seen way more surgile MCG and Lasher users than JH users. Both on the Markov as TR, and playing NC. I have taken 5 screens of the TR on Forseral at gwydion using MCG's and surge.

I was dropped in a max by 5 MCG surgers. I know then that 50 TR using mcg's and surge showed up. The reason for this was they were in the spawn room before the camera could make a entire sweep of the room from right to left with back to wall between the purch terms. That is approx 1/2 of a turn. Aprrox 3 secs from being dropped to seeing right door to left door. Thats a lot of troops moving damn fast.

Now I'm not bitching that you all are using surge. I don't think you are using it in a wrong way. I'm just saying that if we use it it's wrong, but if you use it is okay and just a formality.

Either they take it out or they leave it the way it is.



P.S. see what bitching and yelling for a nerf on something gets you. about time they nerfed us all at once.

[Happy lil Elf]

Good, it's the simplest fix and it makes sense. Oh I know people will cry "Just fix the warping issues!!!!". Here's the thing though- How? It's a tad more complicated than just changing a line of code, if it's even possible at all. If you want to run around like a chicken with it's head cut off while firing a gun, go play UT. Personally I'm sick of people in agile or standard surging around like idiots with a HA weapon and thus warping like a turbo charged Starhip Enterprise. This fixes it and affects the way I play the game in no way what-so-ever sooooooo /danceofjoy

The only thing I like more than this change is that Oxo might quit over it :lol:

[teratravp]

wow...

I haven't played this game since beta.

I was thinking about getting a trial and seeing if the developers pulled their heads out of their asses yet and stoped trying to sabatoge what they've done right.

the answer is pretty clear.

in beta surge + cycler was my favorite way to play. There's nothing superfantastically overpowered about that whatsoever. It's just a WAY to play. Just like you can cert in any other variety of things and kick my ass.

now apparently they've got some lag problem (HOW? you've got less players then ever sheesh) and the answer is throw surge out the window? I know no one has gotten more (deserved?probably) flaming in the history of devs then the planetside team... but wow. just when I finally thought I'd put enough distance where you would have HAD to come to your senses and finally relented to stop making the game stupider...

ah well, saves me a gig download.

and as always the enigma remains... such a beautiful core to a game... continually ripped apart into less and less. hopefully someone will take this model one day and make a real mmofps that we can all be proud of.

[Duffman]

omg you guys are fuckin morons. This will help the game make playing more fun. You cna still surge up quick then pull out your gun.

Wait i figured somehting out. Use tactics instead of just surge + jumping all over the place.

[teratravp]

why don't they just cut the jump while surging?

I never jumped while surging in the old days, but if that's the exploit then stop just the exploit duh.

and I see nothing's changed about the community being entirely biased towards their style of play and ENCOURAGING the rest of the game to be ruined no matter what the devs are doing.

OH I PLAY AS A NC MAX... HMM NO OTHER CLASSES GOING TO HAVE WEAPONS NOW? GOOD LESS JERKS FIRING AT ME. sheesh (that's just a totally nonsensical example, watch someone get upset about it)

[Queensidecastle]

why don't they just cut the jump while surging?
Thats just one of many things they can do and a good idea at that. It just serves to illustrate the unbridled stupidity of this proposed change

[BadAsh]

and I see nothing's changed about the community being entirely biased towards their style of play and ENCOURAGING the rest of the game to be ruined no matter what the devs are doing.

I agree with your statement. People are very intolerant of others in general, not just in a game. Don�t believe me? Watch the news. Anyway, I agree with the Surge adjustment. I don�t mind losing to someone who reacts faster and fights better, but I hate getting killed by someone exploiting a problem with game code. In this case surge or surge + jumping = warping = vastly unfair combat situation. All I want is a fair fight and to that end this change helps.

[Dharkbayne]

I think you should be able to carry anything that fits in the pistol slot while surging though, i.e. AMP, REK, ACE

[dscytherulez]

My main concern is this: If all you have is a shotgun and AV, and your enemy is firing at you from over 300 feet with an assault rifle, what are your options? You can run away and more then likely be shot in the back and killed, or you could trudge forward in your rexo, weapon drawn, moving slow as hell, just to get shot on your way over. Or, you could keep your weapon holstered, use surge, run as fast as hell right up to your opponent, and get blasted point blank because you don't have time to turn off surge then draw your weapon and even fire one shot. There honestly must be a better solution. No, I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you it's not my job to fix it, so that really doesn't matter now does it?

This was just one of the examples of how this effects gameplay in a negative way. The ACE+Infilsurge is another one. And yes, I know there are also positives to this, and very good ones at that, I won't argue. But in a massive game like PlanetSide, when you make changes, the positives better outweigh the negatives by a lot more then what they do with this decision.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Its good! i like this new change! And if you people think its going to ruin the game, don't knock it until you try it! If you can't be bothered to try it out first, or ADAPT, then don't bother playing, you might as well go find another game to fit your style of play, lets just hope you can adapt to it.

[Vick]

Seems silly, but whatever the fuck.

Ill miss my gauss/agile and gauss/standard loadouts though, sence versus rexo they will be nearly useless.

[WritheNC]

What person uses surge defensively?

Me. :) I am at my best in open field combat, outside of bases. Surge gets you from cover to cover quickly, buys distance from HA users, and gets you away from maxes that get the jump on you.

My main concern is this: If all you have is a shotgun and AV, and your enemy is firing at you from over 300 feet with an assault rifle, what are your options?

Join a squad and have a partner with an MA rifle with you. Seriously though, if you play by yourself, you really shouldn't have a shotgun in an open ground situation like that. That's just a bad tactical choice on your part(no offense). The only time I pull out a sweeper is in base and tower assaults.

I will like this surge fix, since I rarely use surge in close quarters situations. When I do, I never jump anyway as I like to keep as much stamina as possible.

And if some of the top players that use warping/surge to get their kills quit, no matter their empire, good. Means I'll just move up the ranks more, and boost my low SELF ESTEEM CUZ I WAS BEAT UP IN SCHOOL PLZ DON'T HIT ME ANYMORE OMFG. >_<

[Zatrais]

My main concern is this: If all you have is a shotgun and AV, and your enemy is firing at you from over 300 feet with an assault rifle, what are your options? You can run away and more then likely be shot in the back and killed, or you could trudge forward in your rexo, weapon drawn, moving slow as hell, just to get shot on your way over. Or, you could keep your weapon holstered, use surge, run as fast as hell right up to your opponent, and get blasted point blank because you don't have time to turn off surge then draw your weapon and even fire one shot. There honestly must be a better solution. No, I can't tell you what it is, but I can tell you it's not my job to fix it, so that really doesn't matter now does it?

This was just one of the examples of how this effects gameplay in a negative way. The ACE+Infilsurge is another one. And yes, I know there are also positives to this, and very good ones at that, I won't argue. But in a massive game like PlanetSide, when you make changes, the positives better outweigh the negatives by a lot more then what they do with this decision.

Obiously you're using a shotgun at the wrong place if you have a 100 meter range between you and the target. You got the wrong gear so you deserve to die.

[Subterfuge]

So they're just going to disable weapons while surging? Where's the logic behind that? Your feet cant move when your weapon is drawn? Yeah , real smart, how about actually giving a valid explanation rather then balance.


Why dont we just disable movement at all and give everyone 1 hit kills, oh and how about only 1 continent with 10 bases for each nation, oh yeah how about more exp, no wait all new characters are br20's cr5's. Yeah and some railguns that destroy vehicles. Nerf the air vehicles too, oh and no more spawn time

[Hamma]

about time. Surgile = exploit

[AztecWarrior]

Dear God, quit whining. I don't Surge as an NC, and I don't JH. RExo is supposed to be a heavier (yes, this means slower) armor. Your advantage is the additional gun, inventory space, and 100 armor.

[Spee]

Or, OXO, why dontcha go play on Werner server, so that youre ping is so high that you warp around like a tool anyways?

I owned a guy with a supressor, in CQB. he had a JH. I got a hate tell.


[/doesntplaythisgameanymore]

[AztecWarrior]

I prefer the Gauss in CQB. Why? Everything else sucks beyond about thirty meters, especially the Jackhammer, which is why I dropped it. You can't get that close in this kind of combat.

Besides, the Sweeper delay between shots is agonizing. The Gauss is high-speed death, BUT YOU HAVE TO AIM! Oh NOS! I have to *move* my mouse!

[LimpBIT]

two words. Bull shit

[Duffman]

two word "Shut the fuck up" o damn that was 4 wasnt it

[WingMaker]

WHY?! This has been since beta I don't even understand why they would kill something like this?! At least disable jump while surging but removinng the weapon from it?! I juist cant get over that this is happening...

[Ouroboros]

Okay, what in god's name is so bad about it? Why is it that every time the devs change something people bitch like hell?

[BadAsh]

Okay, what in god's name is so bad about it? Why is it that every time the devs change something people bitch like hell?

Because people have to adjust their tactics. People got used to surging all over while blasting away at opponents who have trouble aiming back and thus offering much resistance.

You were never meant to have superhuman warping abilities. They tried to correct this with game code and it did not work. So the next logical step is changing the rules for surge in the game to stop the warping.

OH, BTW, nice sig :evil:

[Ouroboros]

It was a rhetorical question, but thanks. :p

[SilverLord]

Simply astonishing. Well, its been fun.. Time for another game it seemsYou my friend, are very lame.

[Warborn]

Best change ever.

<3

[Diddy Mao]

n3rf'n surge is a bad Idea. Only Reason you see more NC use'n Surge then you would a VS or TR is because Our Main weapon the JH is most effective @ close range and only way to get in close enough without be picked off by a MCG or a Lasher was sure. The MCG and Lasher are both Effective @ meidum range, as JH is effect in short distance (it can be used @ medium range but with hardly any stellar results). Once again the Devs are screw'n the NC over again. It does effect all 3 empires just hurts the NC the most -_-

[SilverLord]

NC always whining. Just stop and deal with it.

This is the most remarkable change in awhile.

[Ouroboros]

Hey, maybe you'll have to start carrying around a geuss now?

[Madcow]

I've been playing nuttin but NC for a bit now and they needed the nerfing for sure. Diddy has a point about it hurting the NC HA users more than anybody else, though. The JH users had finally gone down significantly and this will bring that number even further down. For the most part I like the change, but I don't like the way it will separate the HA usefulness (and this from a guy with 0 chars with the JH cert).

[Vick]

I always use a gauss and I think this sucks, I like moving faster then my enemy. I like surging away and dropping a boomer, I like surging past a guy and gaussing him in the back, I like surge the way it is.

This is just a win for those stand-still with MCG or lasher shield-rexo spam newbs.

[KIAsan]

HAHAHAHAA good bye surgile bunnyhopping warping exploiters!!!!! Yes, this is the best change ever. For all who will quit or not join because of it, good riddance!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Kaymon]

So they're just going to disable weapons while surging? Where's the logic behind that? Your feet cant move when your weapon is drawn? Yeah , real smart, how about actually giving a valid explanation rather then balance.

You mean to say that balance isn't a valid explanation for an exploit fit?

n3rf'n surge is a bad Idea. Only Reason you see more NC use'n Surge then you would a VS or TR is because Our Main weapon the JH is most effective @ close range and only way to get in close enough without be picked off by a MCG or a Lasher was sure.

Ignoring the fact that you have a gauss rifle...

Use your weapons properly. The JH is not the be-all end-all weapon for the NC.

[dscytherulez]

Obiously you're using a shotgun at the wrong place if you have a 100 meter range between you and the target. You got the wrong gear so you deserve to die.

I don't do this. In fact, I rarely ever use my JH anymore. Gauss outside, scat max inside. When I get a timer on my scat max I'll use JH, until I can get it back. Another time I use jackhammer is when I'm flying. I pack that with my agile so I stand half a chance when I get shot down over a base. But if you get shot outside your screwed.

Besides, you can't tell me that there hasn't been a time where you were using one weapon and move from the inside to the outside? If you don't then you obviously get killed too much and you also deserve to die.

[Mango]

Woot!!!

[SilverLord]

I use the MCG about 70% of the time I'm playing PS and this change will not affect me at all. Now, I have a surgile with a JH on Markov and with this change, it won't affect me that much but it still does hurt the guy a little but now the NC guass will be everywhere. I say this is a problem because believe it or not, I'm more afraid of a guass than a JH because that thing is just effective at all ranges but so is the cycler.

TR is fine, VS are fine, the NC might get a little shaft on this but nothing they can't deal with. They might whine a bit more now though, nothing new.

[Warborn]

This change will decrease my survivability as a sniper sigificantly whenever I play again. I was able to use Surge to great effect, because it takes two shots which you are virtually guarenteed to hit on to take out anyone. So long as you can strafe around, a lot of the time it was a free kill. Anyone not using a HA (or sometimes sweeper) couldn't get enough rounds into me before I reloaded and fired the killing shot.

It's that kind of cheap kill crap I detest, despite being guilty of it (survival instincts > *) and as such I am extremely pleased with this change.

[Mag]

Spork just basically said, to the jackhammer users "Screw off, find a new way to play"

[Foxd1e]

if you dont like it dont play it anymore, give it a chance first, this is nerfing everyone, all empires use the surge + HA, for me NC use it more than TR (naturaly) the Surgile JH + Agile armor is a good combo for NC, as well as the other empires.

- the stealthers will be more nerfed eg. running away very quickly, the boomer in the spawn will be harder for them too. (the whole boomer in the spawn is a piss off too)

overall this is a very good update, this games about teamwork, and the surgile HA that takes out over 5 guys is not cutting it for me personaly.

- Get rid of empire switching. :vsrocks:

[Queensidecastle]

You my friend, are very lame
Nice way to stay on topic. Ok fair enough. You want an Ad Hominen attack? Fuck. You. hows that?

I dont need to justify the way I spend my money but I can tell you that I am fed up and wont be giving it to these retards any longer. There just isnt any reason to. Plenty of other games out there to play, and plenty of other ways to spend my money

[Foxd1e]

Thats exactly why your lame, calling them retards, and what the fuck for? because the game isnt how you like it? cos your a general whiner? dont give them your money, we dont care, they dont.

[Incompetent]

HAHAHAHAA good bye surgile bunnyhopping warping exploiters!!!!! Yes, this is the best change ever. For all who will quit or not join because of it, good riddance!!!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA/agree

Seriously, by the reactions in both this thread and the OF, it is so easy to tell why the devs don't tell us shit. One god damn change gets posted and everyone is pronouncing the fucking apocalypse.

[Queensidecastle]

/shrug a whole bunch of people are going to quit that may not have wanted to quit. So we are angry and have every right to be. This change is akin to your dog hungrily eating a pile of its own shit. Its a real stupid thing to do and really unnecessary. You change something so core to the game that has been in place for a year and your going to piss a whole lot of people off. This game just geeps getting worse so its now time to leave. I was patient during the retarted move of the decimator, I was patient during all the Lasher crap and all the Infiltrator bugs which are still not fixed. Its really not suprising this game has a new producer every 4 months.

[KIAsan]

Play TR a while, then tell us about patience. However, see ya! And I said the same to whining TR who threatened to quit. If your going to give us the cartman (screw you guys, I'm going home), then all we can say is "don't let the door hit you in the ass on your way out". If however, you stay around and play with the changes in place, then let us know if it really changed your gaming, then I for one will have respect for your argument. Until then, I repeat, lets see how this plays out before folks start whining. Hell, they are nerfing the TR maxes AGAIN, with their new fall damage model, but I ain't whining about it, until I see it in game. But that's another thread.

[Diddy Mao]

Use your weapons properly. The JH is not the be-all end-all weapon for the NC.

The gauss wasn't designed to take on multiple enemies, sure it will excell in open terrain vs Lashers/MCG's but it will suffer up close being as it's not made for multiple targets. The Sweeper/JH "are" made for Multiple enemies, but you have to get in close enough to be effective (Which was done by with surge) Half you people don't know that 2/3rd's of the people that use surge have no idea they are warp'n till the hate tells start flow'n, Don't blame them blame the network code and such for not being able to keep up.

The Jackhammer is not the Only weapon but most use it, as same applies for the Vs and their Lashers and the TR and their MCG's. NC just keep get'tn hit with n3rf's, sooner or later we are all gonna be shoot'n n3rf guns.

People sure up against me all the time sure they ware but your dump enough to follow it, when they warp the end up and the same position so just wait for em there. Because you lapspics can't get decent kills and complain don't mean u have to ruin the game for the rest of us

[Dharkbayne]

Suprise Suprise! You Can Get Rexo, Use A Gauss For Long To Medium Range, Then When You're Close Enough, Get Out Your Jh To Finish Them Off! Wow! So Fucking Hard!

[Incompetent]

Half you people don't know that 2/3rd's of the people that use surge have no idea they are warp'n till the hate tells start flow'n, Don't blame them blame the network code and such for not being able to keep up.So we should just leave it broken because people aren't doing it on purpose?
The Jackhammer is not the Only weapon but most use it, as same applies for the Vs and their Lashers and the TR and their MCG's. NC just keep get'tn hit with n3rf's, sooner or later we are all gonna be shoot'n n3rf guns. Yes, allow me to cry for the poor pitiful NC, if it keeps going the way it looks like it will you might get a taste of what it's like too be the other 2 empires bitches for a while like everyone else has.
People sure up against me all the time sure they ware but your dump enough to follow it, when they warp the end up and the same position so just wait for em there. Because you lapspics can't get decent kills and complain don't mean u have to ruin the game for the rest of usIf i'm reading that correctly (and i have no idea if i am) it says something to the effect of "You suck cause you can't kill surgiles," to which the appropriate reply is "You suck because you can't kill without surgile." That is possibly the worst arguement either way, and simply reveals that you don't have any better defense.

[slytiger]

Y couldnt they just make the surge drain stamina much faster while you have a weapon out? And another thing, did they ever think of making every new idea or change into a poll that everyone had to answer before they played PS thus get everyone's opinions and not just the ones who complain on the boards.

[BDMJ]

I tend to use surge because it is undeniably effective. This is not a nerf caused by its performance, this is a nerf caused by the Devs' inability to reduce the warping through netcode changes. I object to it for this reason. I think this is the latest in a series of shoddy changes made because the devs' are unable to get engine and netcode bugs worked out properly.

1) Hart exploit bug

2) quad shot "fix"

and now the 3) surge nerf

They make these quick fixes because they clearly don't have the resources to deal with such problems in a timely manner. Why is it taking so long to fix the router bug, and why did it take so long to fix the corpse bug, the vanguard cannon clipping bug, the cloaked rexo bug, or the door bug? The answer is they just don't have the man power to add content, fix bugs, or do either quickly.

I'm not going to quit, I will still enjoy the game, and I recognize the limitations of the dev team based on their responses to earlier issues. Of course I will be frustrated, but the fun I derive from playing far outweighs my frustration.

[Krinsath]

*sigh* Here we go again...

The surge change is long overdue. Too long in fact. The reason we hear so much whining is due to the large number of players who left BECAUSE of surge, so that now mostly it's the ones who abused it that are left...and now they are angry because their shiny toy is getting taken away.

Here's a clue for those who need one: PlanetSide is, and always has been, about team tactics. Is it possible to be a lone player? In some circumstances, yes...but there will be a myriad of situations that you're ill-equipped to handle. The problem with Surge is that it allowed one player to be EVERYTHING. HA has the ability to do some serious damage to people, pack in a decimator for any MAX you encounter and you can go on a killing spree all on your own, no teamwork required. That, my friends, is the true BS of this equation.

Simply making a no jumping fix still leaves unresolved the problems of inclines. Since EVERY base and EVERY tower is multiple levels, the surgile still has the ability to create an easy warp effect. Combine this with their rather cheesy use of 3rd person to see around corners and they're having their cake and eating it too. Not only can you see the enemy before they can see you, when you DO attack them, there's no chance in hell they can hit you. That problem would still be unfixed by simply taking out the jump.

It's easy to assume the cavalier attitude of "Well, it's your machine...obviously" but guess what...they're paying just as much money as you are for this game. Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a high-end machine and Sony would be cutting themselves off at the knees to just go "oh well...sucks to be you guys!" So unless you're planning on upgrading every paying customer to a "good" machine out of your own pocket, STFU about machine specs. If Sony wants to revise their specs (which they should, since they're no where near accurate anymore) and these people no longer meet them, that's one thing. So long as they meet the recommended specs, BS like surge-warping should not be the defining characteristic of their gameplay experience.

Surge was an exploit that was abused heavily. As publicized as it's been for the past few months, there was no way in hell that people didn't know what they were doing and why. When you have a substantial part of your playerbase doing the same thing and having large successes as a result of a well-documented bug, it ceases to be a bug and becomes an exploit. How would the surgers feel if a Jammer grenade killed anyone with Surge active through a bug? They would be mightily pissed if someone just loaded a thumper full of Jammer grenades and went to town. The Devs tried measures to fix the problem without affecting the way the implant did it's job, it didn't work...now they're doing the most effective fix to keep things under control. The Devs did NOT say that this was a permanent thing (though I really don't care if it is or not), and this may be the band-aid to keep the community balanced while the very complex issue underneath is worked on more fully. We could very well see a return to surging with weapon drawn at some point in the future...no Dev has yet said to the contrary, people just wanted to jump to conclusions and start up the flame wars.

Is this a fairly large nerf to the JH community? If you used surge to use the weapon effectively then yes, you're screwed. Many people found that you can just use the JH with appropriate tactics and it works just as well. The JH itself is no less effective, just a crutch to make it so you didn't need support to get you into a position to use it has been removed. For pilots who get shot down, the JH is no longer a weapon they can carry around...if something shot you down though, chances are it was a MAX or a Vehicle...so you'd really want AV at that moment anyway. Being a downed pilot sucks in general, so I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for not being able to surge offensively...if anything that surge should be getting your ass back to base.

The TR are also severely guilty of surgile, and I can't say that I'll be sorry to see them go either. As much as the NC complain, at least their weapons are somewhat effective. The Cycler and MCG are capable weapons...and that ends the list of useful TR weapons. Yes, the Prowler is a nice tank...except that for 10 Prowlers you'll be facing 15 Mags or Vans...same deal with the Marauder. The MAXes are still pathetic. So losing anything that gives killing ability is a bigger nerf to the TR than it could ever be to the NC. Yes, your HA doesn't work so well now...your MA and AV and MAXes and tanks are still *quite* effective.

The VS...well, the less we say about them the better. Hope they're enjoying their brief time in the sun. Fix the damned Pulsar...what good is a short-ranged rifle?

Infiltrators: Yes, the surge is somewhat of a nerf to you. 2.6 will also see the sizable BUFFS with the invisibility factor and the damned gauge being accurate. Sure, they're not so much buffs as long overdue bug fixes, but it's not like you're being crippled. VS infiltrators won't notice much of a change, but damned if the TR and NC ones won't. And if you're a VS infiltrator and feel like complaining...go get five of your Barney Buddies to drop the Lasher...then you can complain :p

[Spee]

Seriously, by the reactions in both this thread and the OF, it is so easy to tell why the devs don't tell us shit. One god damn change gets posted and everyone is pronouncing the fucking apocalypse.


/signed

[Krinsath]

They make these quick fixes because they clearly don't have the resources to deal with such problems in a timely manner. Why is it taking so long to fix the router bug, and why did it take so long to fix the corpse bug, the vanguard cannon clipping bug, the cloaked rexo bug, or the door bug? The answer is they just don't have the man power to add content, fix bugs, or do either quickly.

They make the quick fixes because PlanetSide isn't a calculator where if something doesn't add right, it's straightforward to go into the code and fix it. There is a massive amount of code written by a myriad number of people, some who don't even work there anymore. Sometimes a quick fix to get basic functionality working while underlying issues are examined in depth is far preferrable to just leaving something broken in the product.

Nothing in the computer industry is more difficult than trying to work on a system that somebody else designed. Sure, there are conventions on how things are supposed to be done, but to be completely honest, every system no matter how "to convention" it is carries with it a bit of the programmer who made it. Working on someone else's code takes about three times as long as you have to walk yourself through the coding structures...this is most definately magnified in an application of PlanetSide's complexity.

Now the door bug, for instance, has been explained many times. It was not *a* door bug. It was actually a dozen different bugs that had the same symptom. That's why they'd release a fix, but things still wouldn't work like they should. The bug they worked on HAD been fixed, you were seeing a different one. Kind of like the common cold has the same symptoms, but there are several million different viruses that cause it.

Just because something seems like a simple fix doesn't mean it is. First you have to know what module is breaking, then you need to analyze WHY it's breaking, then you have to devise the code to fix it, then you need to check and make sure that it fixed it, then you have to check to make sure it didn't break anything else. Consider that one bug may involve going to five or six different modules to verify that they aren't causing problems and that you can't have TOO many programmers working on the same project (too many cooks spoil the soup) and time quickly adds up.

Despite popular belief, the Devs are not on the job 16 hours a day...unlike some of you people who play this game evidently.

[Marsman]

First of all - lets keep the name calling and flames out of this - it serves no purpose.

Second to those who are saying, just fix the netcode. Understand that they have been trying to do just that, but we're not dealing with the average FPS game here. You don't have to worry about 8 or 16 objects, the netcode has to deal with 600 objects and all of them with varies states of connectivity and hardware. Quite frankly it's a bloody miracle the game runs at all with these kinds of numbers. There are physical limitations of the code - there is a top end of "trackability" and after numerous attempts by the programmers to find an effective fix, I believe the decission was made to do "something do-able" at least for now - I'm sure the programmers are CONTINUIOUSLY looking to improve the upper end and make it work better but you have to realize there are LIMITS to what can be done. You can't compare this to other FPS games as there ARE NO OTHER FPS GAMES on this scale! I'm a little ticked off at the OF posts by users who call the programmers lazy or too un-caring to fix it the way they "think" it can be fixed.

I'm sure the no-jump was considered but there are other problems to this besides jumping and I'm not convinced that would effect a complete solution. Apparently neither are the devs. I realize this invalidates certain tactics - so have other changes and most times players are clever enough to develop alternate ways to play. I know those NC who use the JH and surge up to their enemies are distressed. I suggest you develop a way to draw the enemy in to you or use a weapon better suited to range until it's time to pull the trusty JH. It doesn't have to be all one way. Rather than whining for another balance change, develop a tactic that allows you to use the weapon as is.

The OF is split about 50-50 on this as far as posts go - however, there are far less intelligent arguments on the negative side in total. Some folks have made construtive and well thought out negative comments - I applaud them - That's what community involvement is all about. To those who are "quitting this f*%#ing game" and "this is the stupidest idea ever" and "you suck devs" can kindly exit stage left (and don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out). We dont need you if thats the only way you have to offer your opinion. You are most likely the players who have exploited this at every oppertunity and have forced this change to begin with.

So positive or negative, lets keep it civil and let's be contructive in what we have to say. I assure you one well thought out thread will carry FAR more weight in the eyes of the dev team than 50 flames with nothing but insults and threats to cancel. :rolleyes:

[321]

This sucks. I hate the whole idea. Surge is fine right now the warping thing has stopped and only a few use it. Only constructive critism will help to get this idea out now.

[Eldanesh]

What I don't get is why everyone assumes that MA/Rexo is the way combat should be fought. Surgile is a viable tactic imo, I could very easily spend 3 certs and get rexo/pshield, but as a personal choice I like to move faster and I really don't try to warp, and I have no idea that I am warping until someone accuses me of it. Personally, I have almost never seen anyone truely warping just because of surge, I see rexos doing it too, flying through walls and such, but even then, hardly regularly.

There have been 3 types of grunts I have seen with any regularity, Rexos with MA, Rexos with HA, and surgiles with HA.
http://www.thottbot.com/planetside/2004-03-07/10/cert_heavy_assault/
Notice that of all br 10's across servers, 74% of nc with HA have rexo as well.
So of the NC that have Jackhammer, (38%), only 26% of those are activly surgiling.
Will the whiners not be happy until agile is completely useless as a combat armor? There does not have to be one formula for how a grunt has to go into combat. Everyone going in a rexo is just as boring as everyone and their grandmother carrying a lasher.

Hell, if you want to go pure cert-points spent v. cert-points spent, MA rexos spend 5 certs, surgiles spend 6 + an implant, the Rexo deserves to die up close. HA rexos spend 9 certs, I know as a surgile, a good MCG rexo can screw me up bad if he knows i am coming, a decent lasher rexo can do the same thing. If you add personal shield to the rexo, making it a full 3-point advantage then yes, I have a very hard time dealing with Rexos. That means that with JH, now the slowest ttk up close, I have to deal about 400 pts of damage to them before they do 200 to me. Tough, but I manage.

EDIT: Also to all of you whiners complaining about one guy in agile kiling 3-4 people in a row, did it occur to you that 1. They were probably better, 2. They were more prepared, 3. The people were not paying attention and either got snuck up on or acted like deer in the headlights. A sugile jumping on 3 rexos with mcg's drawn paying attention to their surroundings = dead surgile in about a half a second. A surgile jumping on 3 Rexos all picking their ass looking the wrong way should = 3 dead rexos imo.

Imo, close-range combat was good, fast-paced (like it should be) and balenced. (yes, even against the uber-lasher)

In any case, I delt with the JH being nerfed repeatedly and rexos + other HA weapons being buffed, I will deal with being slower too I guess. More incentive for me to never leave my vanguard =\ until the rexobunnies start bitching about not being able to kill those with their ub3r med assault.

[Acaila]

Second to those who are saying, just fix the netcode. Understand that they have been trying to do just that, but we're not dealing with the average FPS game here. You don't have to worry about 8 or 16 objects, the netcode has to deal with 600 objects and all of them with varies states of connectivity and hardware. Quite frankly it's a bloody miracle the game runs at all with these kinds of numbers. There are physical limitations of the code - there is a top end of "trackability" and after numerous attempts by the programmers to find an effective fix, I believe the decission was made to do "something do-able" at least for now - I'm sure the programmers are CONTINUIOUSLY looking to improve the upper end and make it work better but you have to realize there are LIMITS to what can be done. You can't compare this to other FPS games as there ARE NO OTHER FPS GAMES on this scale! I'm a little ticked off at the OF posts by users who call the programmers lazy or too un-caring to fix it the way they "think" it can be fixed.

Exactly. The problem isn't the code, it is the fact that not everyone has a T1 line into their living room and the servers aren't hosted each on their own T3 lines. Surge doesn't cause warping, neither does jumping, low data rates is what causes it. SOE looks for the most realistic solution and that is making people move far slower so the gaps in positional updating from incoming data aren't as noticeable.

[ChewyLSB]

Suprise Suprise! You Can Get Rexo, Use A Gauss For Long To Medium Range, Then When You're Close Enough, Get Out Your Jh To Finish Them Off! Wow! So Fucking Hard!

LMAO! Exactly what I was thinking.

[Vick]

I dont use the JH, but if you guys have tried it you would see it is only as good as a lasher or MCG in VERY close range. Not from the top of a stairwell to the bottom, not across a spawnroom, you gotta be right on them. Which is why you see so many surgiles, and why the surge change will really hurt the JH.

I only use the gauss, I have 10 load outs, and they all have a gauss. Infact, my main rexo suit is dual gauss rifles. Ive got surgile gauss, pilot guass, standard armor and gauss for boomering spawn rooms, bolt driver and gauss, ACEs and gauss, all kinds of stuff. So trust me when I know about the guass, I will take on anyone with it, the surgilest lasher or the most badass rexo MCGer. I have thousands of kills with it.

I have no problems killing these "warpers" unless maybe they are bunny hopping. I like to use surge to run away, drop boomers, race in and kill a guy then leave, all kinds of stuff I will no longer be able to do. Overall, I just think this is bullshit. I am not exploiting or trying to warp or whatever, I am a good player and I like the extra speed of surge.

Anyway, one last thing, those surgile JH guys are not winning because they warp or have a good gun. They are better players then you, face it.

[DeathEater]

About time. This is an excellent change. I am all for it.

[Krinsath]

What I don't get is why everyone assumes that MA/Rexo is the way combat should be fought. Surgile is a viable tactic imo, I could very easily spend 3 certs and get rexo/pshield, but as a personal choice I like to move faster and I really don't try to warp, and I have no idea that I am warping until someone accuses me of it. Personally, I have almost never seen anyone truely warping just because of surge, I see rexos doing it too, flying through walls and such, but even then, hardly regularly.

Surgile was a viable tactic until people discovered that it could be abused into gaining an unfair advantage. Abuse it and lose it, effectively. Had people said "well, I won't surge when I get into a base and start changing elevations" then maybe we wouldn't be at this point now. Of course, who in the hell is going to say that? We have people who forget to switch Darklight off, so you can be assured that nobody was bothering to regulate their surge usage.

If you've been around these boards and OF and you bother to READ anything, you knew about issues with surging. While you might not realize that you're doing it once, as soon as the hate tells start pouring in, it should occur to you "Hmmm...even I can warp without meaning to...well, this issue needs to be fixed!" The fact that there is also a guaranteed method of exploiting the bug in the netcode cements it as a needed fix.


There have been 3 types of grunts I have seen with any regularity, Rexos with MA, Rexos with HA, and surgiles with HA.
Notice that of all br 10's across servers, 74% of nc with HA have rexo as well.
So of the NC that have Jackhammer, (38%), only 26% of those are activly surgiling.

Yes, and that last one shouldn't be on there. If you're going to be dedicated infantry, and participating in the point of assaults, which is the idea behind being HA, then you need to armor to stop the incoming bullets. It's all CQB, so agility means crap as there is no space to manuever. Outside it could make a difference, but then you forget that HA was not meant to be used as an outdoor weapon. It's a passable outdoor weapon at short range, but the rifles own HA outdoors.

Those numbers are also slightly flawed. Yes, 74% of NC with HA have Rexo, but that does not mean that 26% of them are actively surgling. That number could be as high as 50% with those guys having Rexo for when they need to be in a base defense. There's really no way of telling but to draw conclusions based on that statistic is flawed. Until you go in and measure how many NC players have HA and surge and what armor they're wearing when they use surge and HA, you can't say for certain how many are doing what.

So to review: HA = Heavy Assault. Heavy Assault means Heavy Damage to break open Heavy Defense. Heavy Defense means Heavy Enemy Firepower. Heavy Enemy Firepower means....get an assault suit, not a pilot's jumpsuit.

Will the whiners not be happy until agile is completely useless as a combat armor? There does not have to be one formula for how a grunt has to go into combat.

The agile is not useless as a combat armor. It's not totally *useless* as an assault armor, but it's not terribly good at it either...which makes sense as it is the MIDDLE armor (Infiltrator, Standard, Agile, RExo, MAX...gee, funny how it fights right in the middle as the jack of all trades and master of none). You neglict that the most powerful vehicles that a Rexo can pilot is a buggy. Sure, the Enforcer can be a monster, and the Thresher and Skyguard can be annoying, but does any of that compare to that gut feeling when you see a column of battle tanks roll over the hill? Or Flail spam coming in over the horizon? Both of those are the same three certs as the Rexo that they're insta-killing....while in their heavily armored tanks wearing Agile. Forgive me if I don't cry a river for the Agiles out there. You made a choice to drive heavy vehicles or fly aircraft, as a result, your options as assault infantry will be lowered in comparison to those who specialize solely in assault. Why the hell is this a surprise to anyone? MY GOD! Professional baseball players are generally better than the guys who just play on the weekends! NERF MLB!!

Hell, if you want to go pure cert-points spent v. cert-points spent, MA rexos spend 5 certs, surgiles spend 6 + an implant, the Rexo deserves to die up close. HA rexos spend 9 certs, I know as a surgile, a good MCG rexo can screw me up bad if he knows i am coming, a decent lasher rexo can do the same thing. If you add personal shield to the rexo, making it a full 3-point advantage then yes, I have a very hard time dealing with Rexos. That means that with JH, now the slowest ttk up close, I have to deal about 400 pts of damage to them before they do 200 to me. Tough, but I manage.

Just a quick clarification for the record as this may be a typo: A Rexo is 300 points, not 400. Add in that it is still possible to die in RExo with armor remaining, and it's not a full 300 ALL the time.

Indoors, where HA was designed to be used, the Agile can still win as now assuming he is not facing a RExo HA...and even that's not guaranteed to be a loss, just not an easy fight. If you're fighting at range, the rifle will win...that's kind of the idea behind a rifle. The Agile in this instance obviously decided they wanted to be able to dish it out more than they could take it. That's a tactical desicion, but it shouldn't be more viable than someone who choose defense. Their armor level is 1 above yours, your weapon level is one above their's...that means it should be an even fight and 50-50 on the outcome. Currently the Surgile have closer to a 70/30 ratio on wins-to-losses in 1v1 circumstances.

EDIT: Also to all of you whiners complaining about one guy in agile kiling 3-4 people in a row, did it occur to you that 1. They were probably better, 2. They were more prepared, 3. The people were not paying attention and either got snuck up on or acted like deer in the headlights. A sugile jumping on 3 rexos with mcg's drawn paying attention to their surroundings = dead surgile in about a half a second. A surgile jumping on 3 Rexos all picking their ass looking the wrong way should = 3 dead rexos imo.

Again, the most grievous abuse of surge has always been in stairwells and anywhere else that there is elevation change. Every empire has them, but they jump down stairs while surging as soon as they see an enemy come up and the targets are usually dead before anything can happen. If someone was surging straight and level and gets four or five people, then a case can be made that they were more skilled. When they kill four people without taking any damage as they tend to do in tower battles, then there's a problem. To borrow from your example, surgiles (and in these circumstances, RExo's too...hence why it wasn't just the agile that got the surge nerf) can come down the stairs at 5 guys with guns drawn waiting and the 5 willl still get killed because of the warping and client-side hit detection. The fact that throwing a jammer up the stairs immediately resolves the problem could not more clearly indicate that surge is the root of that problem. Are there tactics out there to counter surge? Sure, but why should people need to develop tactics to counter bugs?

Imo, close-range combat was good, fast-paced (like it should be) and balenced. (yes, even against the uber-lasher)

In any case, I delt with the JH being nerfed repeatedly and rexos + other HA weapons being buffed, I will deal with being slower too I guess. More incentive for me to never leave my vanguard =\ until the rexobunnies start bitching about not being able to kill those with their ub3r med assault.

It's still no less fast-paced. The bullets still fly at the same speed. Damage is still dished out and absorbed at the same speed. The only difference is that now you can't fling yourself with reckless abandon at a fortified position without getting gunned down (again...why is anybody surprised when that happens?).

The JH is still the middle HA weapon. The Lasher is still #1 until those fixes get in...the JH is short-ranged, but the MCG has such an insane CoF that you have to be up close to get any production out of it. Up close on a JH user...where might that be a problem...the only real flaw with the JH is that the Sweeper outperforms it due to pellet spread. I've said many times that should be swapped. Hell, you can swap the 1 extra damage point a pellet too. The JH would be quite awesome if it had the Sweeper's pellet spread.

And, for the record, the people who probably want this change the most are the Rexo HA users. If you want to complain about having to spend 6 certs...why should you be able to beat guys who paid 9 certs with any sort of reliability? Sure, skill plays a factor, but if you were to clone people currently, the surgile version would probably win about 50% of the time. That's way too high for that equation. Giving up one armor level PLUS having equal weapons levels should equate to a more 60/40 mix at the very least and 70/30 ideally (remember, the Rexo HA has to deal out two thirds as much damage). In CQB, the kings should be the guys in heavy armor with heavy weapons...what the hell is wrong with people who don't understand this?

Surge was abused, surge needs to go away. Maybe next time someone finds out about something like this and posts for four or five months about it and numerous videos are made documenting the problem, people will go "hmmm, I won't use this till it's fixed" instead of "OMG!! FREE KILLS!"

[WritheNC]

TR/VS guys should stop saying, "NC have no right to bitch why don't you see how it feels?" around here.

You could say that on the OF, but most of the people that are NC here were NC to begin with and not some empire hopping wannabe winners.

If the VS stayed winners and had the majority of the population for the next few months I won't be saying you guys don't deserve to complain just because 1500 losers joined you when the Lasher was buffed. That doesn't make any sense.

And the JH would be fixed pretty good if they just gave it the sweeper's hitscan(which is much tighter and the pellets do not fly at wild random trajectories within the scope of the CoF).

[Veteran]

My God, people, can't you see what Surge has done to the game? It has driven away countless players, given PlanetSide a pateen of amateurishness, and generally ruined game-balance for months.

I was a bunny-hopper in every FPS I ever played before PlanetSide. AvP2, Unreal, Quake, Red Faction, Doom, etc. When I learned (the hard way) what Surge + jump did to the targetting abilities of my enemies, my morality actually caused me to be unable to jump when I was Surging and engaging in Close Quarters Combat because I knew I would be cheesing out my opponents. Nothing is worse to me than an easy victory. Some would press the space bar and nothing else if each press got them a kill towards their leaderboard score. Not me.

Surge is garbage. Even this change is not enough. I'm shocked by Queensidecastle's gimpiness on this issue, and cannot believe that people would invest so much emotion into a single implant. It disturbs me. In a game where teamwork is of the essence, a One Man Army implant like Surge just shouldn't be tantamount to easy victory, but it is.

Get used to it, Surge addicts. Nobody worth a damn is going to break you down for having to follow the learning curve again in an environment with a better-balanced Surge. Don't ruin your credibility for what should be a tiny fraction of this game. The fact that Surge is a major playing piece should be an indicator of its imbalance.

[Diddy Mao]

Most of you people that are Pro surge changed are victims of it, I myself get killed by this "warp'n" effect caused by surge. Most of you just can't keep up with it. Sure they have been working on the net code, but seeing as they can't seem to find the problem with this surge'n warp (I naturally get good pings and not that bad packet loss) They do the next best thing change the way surge works, Now I could cert rex but I have my certs tied up else where and I don't ant to get rexo it's a waste of 3 points imo. It all boils down to Hand Eye coordination, just keep up and you wouldn't have had a problem but why try and adapt when u can complain and get it changed -_-

[Rayder]

Oh... by reading what you have just said Vet, I have come to this conclusion... NERF THE SKILL!

[Veteran]

I dunno what you're saying Rayder, but if it involves calling Surge'n'Warp'n'Jump 'skill', then I am at a loss.

[dscytherulez]

Suprise Suprise! You Can Get Rexo, Use A Gauss For Long To Medium Range, Then When You're Close Enough, Get Out Your Jh To Finish Them Off! Wow! So Fucking Hard!

Surprise surprise! You just opened yourself to a world of getting run the fuck down by tiny vehicles and can't do anything about it because you don't have a AV! Surprise surprise! You just got your ass blasted by a max because you couldn't fight back with your JH/gauss combo! Surprise surprise! Aircraft target your dumb ass because you cant even touch them!

Wow! So fucking easy!

[Veteran]

You're just as dead to vehicles while wearing Agile as you are wearing Rexo. Remember, Client-Side Hit-Detection cares little for your perceived mobility.

If you think Striker is going to help you avoid "getting run the fuck down", you have another thing coming. I guess you could include any AV excluding the Decimator.

Also, I have seen many MAXs destroyed by well-used Jackhammers.

Stay on point, plz.

[dscytherulez]

You're just as dead to vehicles while wearing Agile as you are wearing Rexo. Remember, Client-Side Hit-Detection cares little for your perceived mobility.

If you think Striker is going to help you avoid "getting run the fuck down", you have another thing coming. I guess you could include any AV excluding the Decimator.

Also, I have seen many MAXs destroyed by well-used Jackhammers.

Stay on point, plz.

I wasn't referring to wearing agile, I'm talking about rexo. I only use surge while wearing rexo for the most part. The only time I use agile is when I'm flying. The point is, the solution to your problem is not packing both a close and long range weapon, because of the massive amounts of vehicles in planetside, and also maxes. They make it nearly impossible. As for the JH and gauss killing a max, what about maxes spamming you from 200 meters away with rockets and other long-range projectiles. Ever try killing a max at 200 meters with a gauss? Even loaded with AP ammo it's nearly impossible.

I was just trying to ward off the stupid answers people come up with. :)

[Krinsath]

I wasn't referring to wearing agile, I'm talking about rexo. I only use surge while wearing rexo for the most part. The only time I use agile is when I'm flying. The point is, the solution to your problem is not packing both a close and long range weapon, because of the massive amounts of vehicles in planetside, and also maxes. They make it nearly impossible. As for the JH and gauss killing a max, what about maxes spamming you from 200 meters away with rockets and other long-range projectiles. Ever try killing a max at 200 meters with a gauss? Even loaded with AP ammo it's nearly impossible.

I was just trying to ward off the stupid answers people come up with. :)


For cross-country travel in Rexo: Sunderer with Skyguard escort or Galaxy...Deliverer isn't bad in a pinch. If enemy armor is keeping your convoy from making the trip, bring armor of your own. If you're at a base or tower, you should have a base of AV/AA fire set up to keep the aircraft, MAXes and vehicles off the infantry. :) Problems solved. Teamwork fixes everything...and that is the central idea behind PS.

[Eldanesh]

Just a quick clarification for the record as this may be a typo: A Rexo is 300 points, not 400. Add in that it is still possible to die in RExo with armor remaining, and it's not a full 300 ALL the time.

Indoors, where HA was designed to be used, the Agile can still win as now assuming he is not facing a RExo HA...and even that's not guaranteed to be a loss, just not an easy fight. If you're fighting at range, the rifle will win...that's kind of the idea behind a rifle. The Agile in this instance obviously decided they wanted to be able to dish it out more than they could take it. That's a tactical desicion, but it shouldn't be more viable than someone who choose defense. Their armor level is 1 above yours, your weapon level is one above their's...that means it should be an even fight and 50-50 on the outcome. Currently the Surgile have closer to a 70/30 ratio on wins-to-losses in 1v1 circumstances.

When I said 400 points I was referring to the extra 100 or so gained from pshield, 100 hp+ 200 armor + 100 staminaarmor= 400 (roundabout) of hp to chew through with only 200 + shitty absorbtion to protect me. I have no problem with getting my ass kicked by somone with pshield Rexo, however imo one implant slot is equal to 3 certs, simply because one only gets 3 and if I am using my surge to stay competative, I am going without another implant, (audio amp) which one of those rexos may get instead.

It just bugs me seeing an endless stream of nc nerfs, hell, drop the 2ndary on JH and give us a tighter pellet spread or better ttk. Theoretically JH has fastest ttk but that is if every pellet from 2ndary hits.

Or just give us a blue MCG =\ that thing is exactly what I want in a HA weapon.

Since when does someone have to have rexo to be a team player too? that really does not make sence either. Which is a better "team player" a engy/med/ha/rexo/av or engy/adv med/ha/av?

[Lartnev]

sweeper is nastily accurate for a shotgun, I wouldn't make the CoF THAT accurate, but do concede the JH could do with a little buff to its CoF in primary mode.

[Vick]

No one even responds to my posts, is that because I am right and you wont touch it?


Asshats.

[Eldanesh]

I dont use th JH, but if you guys have tried it you would see it is only as good as a lasheror MCG in VERY close range. Not from the top of a stairwell to the bottom, no across a spawnroom, you gutta be right on them. Which is why you see so many surgiles, and why the surge change will really hurt the JH.

I only use the gauss, I have 10 load outs, and they all have a gauss. Infact, my main rexo suit is dual gauss rifles. Ive got surgile gauss, pilot guass, standard armor and gauss for boomering spawn rooms, bolt driver and gauss, ACEs and gauss, all kinds of stuff. So trust me when I know about the guass, I will take on anyone with it, the surgilest lasher or the most badass rexo MCGer. I have thousands of kills with it.

I have no problems killing these "warpers" unless maybe they are bunny hopping. I like to use surge to run away, drop boomers, race in and kill a guy then leave, all kinds of stuff I will no longer be able to do. Overall, I just think this is bullshit. I am not exploiting or trying to warp or whatever, I am a good player and I like the extra speed of surge.

Anyway, one last thing, those surgile JH guys are not winning because they warp or have a good gun. They are better players then you, face it.

/agree
No one even responds to my posts, is that because I am right and you wont touch it?


Asshats.
/agree

Happy now? :D

[Krinsath]

When I said 400 points I was referring to the extra 100 or so gained from pshield, 100 hp+ 200 armor + 100 staminaarmor= 400 (roundabout) of hp to chew through with only 200 + shitty absorbtion to protect me. I have no problem with getting my ass kicked by somone with pshield Rexo, however imo one implant slot is equal to 3 certs, simply because one only gets 3 and if I am using my surge to stay competative, I am going without another implant, (audio amp) which one of those rexos may get instead.

Not everyone uses pshield, so that becomes an inaccurate comparison. They may be using darklight and enhanced targeting (which are much more common) so there is still only 300. Probabilty is that more than 50% of people do NOT use Rexo and pshield, so the number 300 is a more accurate reflection of the general circumstances surrounding the combat illustration.

It just bugs me seeing an endless stream of nc nerfs, hell, drop the 2ndary on JH and give us a tighter pellet spread or better ttk. Theoretically JH has fastest ttk but that is if every pellet from 2ndary hits.

NC have the LEAST room to be talking about nerfs. Yes, the JH has been over-nerfed but nearly every other weapon the NC have is quite good, if not the best of their class. The TR have an equivalent HA (note, that's a tie for second at the moment) and MA, but lose out in every other category. That's why the NC hear so many complaints, they have no lame ducks...every other empire has at least two.

Or just give us a blue MCG =\ that thing is exactly what I want in a HA weapon.

So loot them...I'm sure many NC players have lockers full of MCGs.

Since when does someone have to have rexo to be a team player too? that really does not make sence either. Which is a better "team player" a engy/med/ha/rexo/av or engy/adv med/ha/av?

Not quite sure where that came from or what the illustration at the end is trying to prove, but I'll field it anyway. You don't have to be a Rexo to be a team player. However, you must consider the role of the weapons/armor relative to the task being accomplished. Most people would not try to kill a sniper at 300m with a ScatterMag...that's insanely stupid. While not as extreme, most people would not try to out shoot a Guass at 100m with a Sweeper. Few people would try to take on a MAX without at least HA or AV.

The role of agile is not as a front-line soldier. Those are the guys taking the hits and breaching the holes...which is a job for heavier armor. The general role of Agiles is to make sure those Rexos get to where they're going...either through vehicle piloting or other support roles. Yes, an Agile can fight. Yes, an Agile can be better at it than a Rexo. Fact remains that the game was designed so that you had a specialty. Those who choose MA/HA/Rexo/AV/SA are obviously choosing to be combat soldiers and have spent 15 certs on it (and are prepared for just about any combat situation one way or another) while the Agile in your illustration has spent 9 certs on combat. Is either of them any better of a team player? No, because a team is composed of a dynamic group of different skills with their individual uses. The Rexo is great when there's combat going on, but useless in the time between combat and in need of support. The Agile can do a little bit of everything, but is going to die quickly if he tries to do the Rexo's job.

So the short answer is: You pick a role with the certs you choose. If you choose to diversify, you'll lose to specialists...that's the way the world works. If I choose to play guitar in my spare time while I learn to play the drums, I will play neither instrument as well as someone who devotes all their time to one or the other. The price of flexibility.

[PhoenixTypeX]

I think it's a brilliant change and will make the game better. And for you whining NC shut the fcuk up, just cause you can't use your noob tactics any more, and your going to have to use some skill. The TR and VS have had to make do for so long and now it's your turn.

[Veteran]

PhoenixTypeX said it all. Give that man a promotion.

NC have Phoenix, Vanguard and Jackhammer. If they whine, they whine in vain.

[Vick]

You guys are dumbasses, what newb tactics are you talking about that NC use so much??

Other empires have just as many surgiles, stop fixating.

My whole outfit has maybe one JH surgile in it, everyone else only uses it when driving.

[Lartnev]

Agile vs Rexo the rexo should technically win. But Rexo vs Infantry MAX and the MAX should win so erm......well....yeah :)

Basically if you want to get up close and personal, you should get Rexo as its the best means of accomplishing it. By no means is it the only way, but it's the easiest and most efficient. You then understand why Rexos can't drive many vehicles etc.

[Krinsath]

I dont use th JH, but if you guys have tried it you would see it is only as good as a lasheror MCG in VERY close range. Not from the top of a stairwell to the bottom, no across a spawnroom, you gutta be right on them. Which is why you see so many surgiles, and why the surge change will really hurt the JH.

Perhaps if you didn't have Surgiles mucking things up and giving false effectiveness indicators (i.e. - the JH didn't get as many kills), you wouldn't be nerfed and nerfed and there would be an equal HA instead of the worse-than-the-Sweeper JH we now have...just a thought. I realize it doesn't matter to you as a Gauss user, but the point reamins.

I only use the gauss, I have 10 load outs, and they all have a gauss. Infact, my main rexo suit is dual gauss rifles. Ive got surgile gauss, pilot guass, standard armor and gauss for boomering spawn rooms, bolt driver and gauss, ACEs and gauss, all kinds of stuff. So trust me when I know about the guass, I will take on anyone with it, the surgilest lasher or the most badass rexo MCGer. I have thousands of kills with it.

Yes, the Gauss is a wonderful MA weapon that does a lot of damage. What about the other 66% of the playerbase who don't have access to as effective of a weapon? The Pulsar is junk compared to the TR and NC HAs, and the Cycler doesn't have a fast enough TTK close up to make it.

I have no problems killing these "warpers" unless maybe they are bunny hopping. I like to use surge to run away, drop boomers, race in and kill a guy then leave, all kinds of stuff I will no longer be able to do. Overall, I just think this is bullshit. I am not exploiting or trying to warp or whatever, I am a good player and I like the extra speed of surge.

1) You don't have the warping problem on your computer. Congratulations! Now, that does nothing to fix the problem for the rather significant number of people who DO have the problem.

2) They just make it so you have to slow down for a second to drop a boomer, not making it so you blow yourself up if you're surging.

3) If you are a good player, the change will affect you not at all (the same with any change, even broken ones...the lasher is overpowered atm with it's bugs...the good players still kill them). If they change surge and suddenly you can't compete, perhaps your assessment wasn't as accurate as you thought. If you're a Gauss user, it *really* shoudn't impact you other than taking away the spawn tactic which the Devs evidently don't feel is all that great (Pain modules were added for a reason and they're an almost direct counter to that strategy).

Anyway, one last thing, those surgile JH guys are not winning because they warp or have a good gun. They are better players then you, face it.

Unless you are sitting at the other person's computer, you have exactly zero knowledge of how the game presented the surgile. Since you have exactly zero knowledge of the cirumstances of the battle, it therefore becomes impossible for you to know the relative skill of these players. If the same players who were surgiles before continue to have their successes, then yes chances are they were better. But if they were inherently better, they wouldn't be concerned about this minor change either.

Methinks the surgiles doth protest too much.

No one even responds to my posts, is that because I am right and you wont touch it?


Asshats.

No, it's not because you're right, it's because some people make far more interesting points for debate, hence they're the ones I respond to. Eldanesh is at least trying to make coherent points rather than drawing from his own experience in game as that will NOT be the same across the 5000+ people who play this game. That is why the Devs tend to discount such reports from individuals and rely on cold, hard facts.

[SuperBallz]

Like little KIDS, "If I can't play noone else can either, oh, and i am taking my ball with me".

We Can Tell The Ones That Exploit The Surge Bug, and isnt Exploiting Against the rules?

Cancel Ur Accounts and save the whining for those that care.

The Surge Bug Needs To Be Fix.

It does give an unfair advantage, Ex.....

I am on dial-up(yes, i know) i average 400 ping(easy kill for HighSpeed Users), i drop on a tower and surge down killing 4-5 peeps, with sweeper. I was like WTF, It was like they couldn't see me or something. Without surge i may get one that is half dead.

I dropped it after a week cuz i was getting currupted by is ease of killing.

If anyne with horrid ping like mine well know, that it isnt helpful, damn right irritating, but i like PS.



BR18/CR2

[Veteran]

Wow, SuperBallz, you are a living contradiction.

An ICP fan who has a reasonable view of game balance, namely Surge.

I think I shall reevaluate my view of humanity now.

[BDMJ]

Thanks for the response Krinsath, but I already was aware of the fact that it was door bugs, and that working on someone else's code is difficult. I just didn't want to write as much as you are obviously prepared to write. The fact that it is difficult doesn't change the fact that the dev team is taking the easy way out now, and has shown a tendency to do so in the past. I believe they are competent, so they must not have enough people to deal with these problems.

I am against any change that limits the number of possible roles available to infantry. The rexo buff was great because it allowed heavy infantry to be a worthwhile combat role in terms of sheer effectiveness. This surge change makes combat agile much less effective, that is why I am opposed to it. The fact that the devs are taking the easy way out is all the more aggravating. Warping is a problem, but this is not the right way to deal with it.

[Lartnev]

Like little KIDS, "If I can't play noone else can either, oh, and i am taking my ball with me"..........

Nicely done :groovy:

[LimpBIT]

I think i speak for most if not all infiltrators when i say this is crap.

[Krinsath]

Thanks for the response Krinsath, but I already was aware of the fact that it was door bugs, and that working on someone else's code is difficult. I just didn't want to write as much as you are obviously prepared to write. The fact that it is difficult doesn't change the fact that the dev team is taking the easy way out now, and has shown a tendency to do so in the past. I believe they are competent, so they must not have enough people to deal with these problems.

I am against any change that limits the number of possible roles available to infantry. The rexo buff was great because it allowed heavy infantry to be a worthwhile combat role in terms of sheer effectiveness. This surge change makes combat agile much less effective, that is why I am opposed to it. The fact that the devs are taking the easy way out is all the more aggravating. Warping is a problem, but this is not the right way to deal with it.

A difficult change that takes time to implement is not a way to keep players happy. There are too many people demanding a "fix it now!" attitude that they can't go "well, we're working on things" because people don't care about progress, they care about results. Look at the infiltrators. They don't care that there are issues with their suits that are complex, they want them fixed. There have been a sharp decline in infiltrators the longer that problem has *nothing* done to it. If you played only to be an infiltrator, then you canceled your subscription which costs the Devs money.

They have to balance keeping the players happy with fixing the problem. Warping is evidently a major problem, and may not be fixable at all. Remove the ability to do damage while warping and at least you make the playerbase happier. They are not doing away with Surge, they are not reducing it's usefulness. They are merely preventing a bug from being exploited. There is no law saying you can't map your tilde to turn surge off and on and still have almost the same combat effectiveness, minus the warping.

That's the reason people are so mad at the people against the change, they're adding a whole 1 second to the equation. If you're winning by that narrow of a margin, then you need to back off of the "I'm just a super good player" claims. Exploits get fixed, that's the nature of things. Don't use something that can be exploited as an integral part of your tactics (note: that does not imply that you are knowingly using it to abuse the exploit) and you never have to worry.

[BDMJ]

Having surge active while the weapon is out is what makes it combat effective. One of the keys to using heavy assault successfully is to strafe side to side while moving forward and backwards. By turning surge on as you move forwards, and turning it off as you backpedal, you create a target that is hard to hit. Surge must be active while a weapon is out for this to work. Winning by 1 second is the rule for heavy assault. When every weapon has a ttk of less than 2 seconds between 0 and 5m, that second makes the difference.

[teratravp]

ugh... so i tried the trial anyway despite my doubts and how can you guys even play?

the lag is atrocious, worse then I ever saw at any point in beta. (although its not as dramatic, the game is simply never smooth now. that's the worse I've seen it. at least in the past you could go for totally smooth perfect periods and THEN have trouble. now it's just steadily low performing.) nerfs should be the least of the worries at the moment, getting the engine to even run at the least as well as has run in the past should be the development concern here... or maybe checking the servers because this is just plain bad latency. lots of skip, stutter, this is like playing on an extremely high ping server over 56k. I changed everything else, every graphic and sound variation and had identical poor performance on my high end system... and it has the exact symptoms of netcode trouble or bad servers so that's what it must be. I find it troubling that you guys have to pay a monthly fee for that.

[BadAsh]

BDMJ,

The reason this change was necessary is because the code correction you are speaking of is not a true option simply due to technological limitations. SOE pushed the technology envelope when coding this game and certain things just reached the point of complete saturation.

One thing specifically is this warping problem. To correct that the player prediction code and the collision calculations need to be tightened up. Doing this adds a lot of math that the servers must handle. Very quickly they reach a point where the servers simply can not keep up with the volume of players this game supports. So the math needs to be �loosened up� a bit. The balance they are trying to strike here is between warping effects and server side lag in medium to larger sized battles. If you add more math the warping goes away but battle lag gets worse. If you reduce the math the battle lag gets better but the warping gets worse.

SOE simply hit the technological limitation of the hardware and are in a position to make compromises. Other than trying to find an acceptable balance between warping and battle lag the only other real solution they have is to analyze game play and determine what can be adjusted there to help the situation. Player speed influences the warping so an adjustment to that is a reasonable and logical option. This is what they opted for and I agree with it 100% for the reasons listed below.

Stopping players from Surging while fighting will do several things that I see as positive for the game.

It will stop the warping glitch from being exploited and improve the gaming experience for everyone.

It will allow for further adjustments to help reduce battle lag.

It will further balance the powerful short ranged weapons in the game. The short range was designed to be a limitation on those weapons and the trade of was the massive damage they do once CQB is reached. Surge circumvented that limitation by greatly reducing the time you would have to spend at medium or longer ranges. This was an effective combination that one empire enjoyed for a long time while the other 2 empires had no such combination. This will help restore balance, which is a good thing.

[PhoenixTypeX]

I totally agree BadAsh and to those NC people saying that people should stop saying that they have noob surge tactics well it's true. It's also true they have buffed the lasher which was needed but they've done it too well and the bug is being fixed so shut up about that too. This surge fix has been wanted by the majority of the player base for so long, it will balance the game tremendously which is always a good thing.

Three cheers for the Devs !!!!!
Hurahhh
Hurahhh
Hurahhh

[scarpas]

i just use my surge to get around... i think ill keep it :nod:

[PhoenixTypeX]

me too good for me being a sniper as I can get up hills or across water quicker, or running away if I have to.

[Happy lil Elf]

Nice way to stay on topic. Ok fair enough. You want an Ad Hominen attack? Fuck. You. hows that?

I dont need to justify the way I spend my money but I can tell you that I am fed up and wont be giving it to these retards any longer. There just isnt any reason to. Plenty of other games out there to play, and plenty of other ways to spend my money

and
/shrug a whole bunch of people are going to quit that may not have wanted to quit. So we are angry and have every right to be. This change is akin to your dog hungrily eating a pile of its own shit. Its a real stupid thing to do and really unnecessary. You change something so core to the game that has been in place for a year and your going to piss a whole lot of people off. This game just geeps getting worse so its now time to leave. I was patient during the retarted move of the decimator, I was patient during all the Lasher crap and all the Infiltrator bugs which are still not fixed. Its really not suprising this game has a new producer every 4 months.
Oxo, I've had an epiphany. You've been a fucking crybaby about this game since launch, you were a fucking crybaby in EQ andm apparently, you'll always be a fucking crybaby.

So here, let me put it in terms you can understand with your infant like mindset:

Na-na-na-na, na-na-na-na, hey-hey-hey, goodbye.

[BDMJ]

It will further balance the powerful short ranged weapons in the game. The short range was designed to be a limitation on those weapons and the trade of was the massive damage they do once CQB is reached. Surge circumvented that limitation by greatly reducing the time you would have to spend at medium or longer ranges. This was an effective combination that one empire enjoyed for a long time while the other 2 empires had no such combination. This will help restore balance, which is a good thing.


The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

Additionally it is obvious that by leaving the buggy netcode intact, that warping will still be an issue. So the devs are nerfing the effectiveness of a legitimate combat strategy and leaving the source of the problem intact, am I right? It might not be as bad, but the problem will still be there. You all are satisfied with this? You shouldn't be. You will still be bitching about warping two months from now, and the devs will have nerfed surge over and over without fixing it. This will not fix the problem, so I don't think it is an acceptable change! The z-axis prediction code needs revision, not the surge implant. A player-base that is satisfied with this quick-fix bullshit will eventually ruin the game, not some idiotic balance problem.

[Krinsath]

The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

The Lasher is not terribly effective beyond 30-35m...that's 1/3 of the range that most rifles (save the Pulsar) are still competent. The MCG is a medium range weapon, but the CoF bloom on it is so insane as to make firing beyond 20m quite the exercise in ammo wasting, which the MCG user can't carry enough of as it takes 1/6 of his inventory to carry a reload. Yes, there are serious trade-offs to be made when carrying HA weapons.

Additionally it is obvious that by leaving the buggy netcode intact, that warping will still be an issue. So the devs are nerfing the effectiveness of a legitimate combat strategy and leaving the source of the problem intact, am I right? It might not be as bad, but the problem will still be there. You all are satisfied with this? You shouldn't be. You will still be bitching about warping two months from now, and the devs will have nerfed surge over and over without fixing it. This will not fix the problem, so I don't think it is an acceptable change! The z-axis prediction code needs revision, not the surge implant. A player-base that is satisfied with this quick-fix bullshit will eventually ruin the game, not some idiotic balance problem.

The problem people have with warping is that people are able to abuse it to gain an advantage they were never meant to have. The netcode *is* a problem and it *is* being worked on. Until it is fixed though, why should the Devs allow players to exploit a well-known bug? That is the idiotic idea. "Yeah, we know that people are abusing this bug...but you guys just tough it out to these people who are advancing using an exploit while you suffer through playing within the intended rules...it'll only be another three or four months!" Yeah...that is a really dumb idea, which is why the Devs are going with DOING something.

By all means, fix the warping. It affects more than just surgiles (afterburning mosquitos, for instance). The problem is that an afterburning mosquito doesn't have that much in the way of targets, and it takes a ton of luck to do serious damage at 228kph with a 12mm gun. The surgile, abusing their abilities to the fullest, usually does have targets filling their crosshairs at point-blank with a weapon designed for CQB.

The "nerf" is going in because surge made a basic bug into an exploit. Leaving in a known flaw just because it's hard to fix while thousands of people abuse it would be like Microsoft just shrugging the next time a major vulnerability is exposed (read: tomorrow) and not releasing a patch to prevent it from being abused. Sometimes those bugs don't get fixed for months down the line, but they try to have the stop-gap out the next day.

Yes, the Devs SHOULD have nerfed surge many months ago, and I'm mad that they've waited this long to admit that they have a problem. At the same time, the problem is being addressed. Is the playerbase satisfied with just this fix? No...but it puts an end to the most obvious abuse of it. It will not fix the problem of the netcode, but it will fix the problem of people ABUSING the netcode. They are separate issues, merely related. When the netcode is fixed and warping is no longer an issue, they may very well return surge to its current form...NO DEV HAS SAID EITHER WAY. Don't assume that an obvious stop-gap is permanent...you're not on the Dev team and have no knowledge at all of what they're working on or how it's progressing. For all you know, they have a group of programmers who have been trying to refine the code for months and are not making serious headway simply because the technology isn't there to do it. You *don't* know, so stop trying to act like you do know what's going on down the road. The current facts are the warping is a problem...warping while being able to inflict damage is leading to unwinnable fights for many people which is in turn costing them subscriptions...as such, they are removing the ability to inflict damage while warping until such time as warping is no longer an issue.

Obviously if the Devs are removing it from the game, they disagree that it is a legitimate combat tactic...as they did with the JH's quad shot and soon the Lasher's 360 degree invulnerability aura.

[WritheNC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BDMJ
The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

The Lasher is not terribly effective beyond 30-35m...that's 1/3 of the range that most rifles (save the Pulsar) are still competent. The MCG is a medium range weapon, but the CoF bloom on it is so insane as to make firing beyond 20m quite the exercise in ammo wasting, which the MCG user can't carry enough of as it takes 1/6 of his inventory to carry a reload. Yes, there are serious trade-offs to be made when carrying HA weapons.

You misunderstood what he was saying. BDMJ is saying that the Lasher and MCG are effective at close range, and that VS and TR do use surge to close the gap to maximize their HA.

[Diddy Mao]

But it isn't as necessary as it is for the NC, the Tr/Vs don't need to close the gap for their HA's to be effective. -_- NC's gett'n n3rfed and one of the viable tatics we use to stay in the game has just been pwnt out of existance. None of you Tr/Vs care games gonna "almost" be the same for you. I rarely voice my opinion on game changed but this is the one that takes a big effect gameplay, once again NC are gett'n hit hard -_- with another n3rf

[Yerster]

It has oits good points an bad points. (more bad than good) I personly have never seen or noticed any of this warping that people complan about. an i am going to miss beign able to surge up behind someone in my infiltraitor suit an unload my beamer into there back before thay knew what hit them. now it is going to be alot harder to do such things.

[Krinsath]

But it isn't as necessary as it is for the NC, the Tr/Vs don't need to close the gap for their HA's to be effective. -_- NC's gett'n n3rfed and one of the viable tatics we use to stay in the game has just been pwnt out of existance. None of you Tr/Vs care games gonna "almost" be the same for you. I rarely voice my opinion on game changed but this is the one that takes a big effect gameplay, once again NC are gett'n hit hard -_- with another n3rf

Oh FFS...the reason why nobody listens to anyone complaining about how the NC are hurt is explained in the Empire-specific weapon review as follows:

TR
Repeater - A decent long range pistol, but useless for anything other than long range shooting. Too slow and too little damage to be an effective infiltrator weapon.

Cycler - Good MA. Loses some effectiveness when the range closes up and the TTK on the Cycler doesn't go up by that much in comparison. Excellent weapon at range.

MCG - Again, a competent weapon. Not a game-breaker, but enough of an advantage over MA to be worth it.

Striker - Horribly bugged. Good for AA and that's about it.

Dual-Cycler - A mediocre (at best) AI MAX...but the TR special ability makes them decimator bait.

Pounder - Same as above, except now that it's AV instead of AI, there's no chance of them not getting deci'ed.

Burster - In extremely limited circumstances, it's a good AA MAX. The other 95% of the time, it's useless. It can't hit aircraft at the flight ceiling (something no other empire suffers from), it has no guidance systems, and again, the special ability makes it a giant target. When you can't move, decimators have an remarkably effective range.

Marauder - There's a reason you don't see many of these. The grenade launcher is pitiful and a 12mm doesn't help. It's basically easy BEP for a Reaver or tank.

Prowler - A mediocre tank, problem is that like the maruader, it takes 150% of the crew that the other two empires need. Hence, in a balanced population, the Prowler is always outnumbered...and since the tanks are theoretically balanced 1v1, that means the Prowler will generally lose in an armor battle of even people (people, not tanks).

VS
Beamer - good for clearing mines. Useless against anything that can fight back.

Pulsar - Is there a more worthless MA in the game? It is, as I've said many times, a short-ranged rifle. Get a Sweeper, more effective MA weapon.

Lasher - We know this one is insane, hopefully the bug fixes will bring it back in line.

Lancer - Good AV weapon. Does damage but is not overpowering in doing so. No guidance at all so the high RoF is offset by the need to manually aim the weapon.

Quasar - Absolutely sick AI MAX. From a damage standpoint, it beats the Lasher in almost every single category.

Comet - Kind of a blah AV MAX, but with some decent AI damage thanks to the plasma burns. AV MAXes suck across the board against vehicles, so this one is average.

Starfire - Plane-Away...this MAX can bring down an entire air squadron if it wanted to. Sit two of them on a hill overlooking a vehicle pad and you'll never have to worry about the enemy getting any planes in the air.

Thresher - Ummm....it's good to have at a 70s theme party, but other than that it's kind of useless as a weapons platform. Good mowing, but that's about it.

Magrider - As a battle tank, it's kind of iffy. As an anti-infantry/anti-aircraft platform, it's damned potent. The ability to launch an armored assault at any point and transport LLUs over water are also nice benefits.

NC
ScatterMag - best pistol for infiltrators. Useless against deployables, which makes it unique in being good against the enemy, but bad against his stuff.

Gauss - damned effective rifle. Equal at least to the Cycler at range and MUCH better than the Cycler indoors. Only downside to it is the 30 round clip.

JackHammer - Still a decent HA, especially in a tower fight or CC storm. Not as useful as other HAs in a hallway battle perhaps, but still competent at least (just look at the number of TR and VS who still loot them and smash NC with them).

Phoenix - Arguably the best AV in the game, slightly tarnished by the illiterate amongst the NC who thought that said "best AI in the game". Get a group of Phoenixes together and they can ensure that nothing outdoors gets anywhere...all without the possibility of being shot back at.

Scattercannon - Not the best of MAXes outdoors, a lethal monster indoors second only to the Quasar. The shield ensures that it will actually kill someone before it dies (unlike the TR MAX).

Falcon - Best AV MAX in the game (not that it says a whole lot...). Also does a damned impressive amount of splash damage to infantry, a good MAX to use while waiting for your Scatter to be available.

Sparrow - Second best AA in the game, only because the Starfire is sick. Group of those can keep the skies free of planes...unlike the Starfire which can almost do it on its own.

Enforcer - The one effective buggy in the game. The missile launcher is mean. You can set up a long ways away from a door and shell the crap out of it. Seen this done many times to great effect.

Vanguard - Best tank in the game. Heavy damage, heavy armor, decent speed. Get a squad of Vanguards rolling and it will take two to three times the force (people wise) to stop you.

So to review...the lame ducks (in their class):

TR - Striker, DC, Pounder, Burster, Marauder, Prowler

VS - Beamer, Pulsar, Thresher

NC - Jackhammer MAYBE

Hence why nobody really pities the NC. You have almost no crappy weapons in your inventory except for MAYBE the Jackhammer and that's not even a clear cut case. Hence, quit acting like the NC are some poor put upon step-child who is forced to clean the Dev's basement while the other empires live the high life. Looking at the various weapons, if *anyone* can claim that title, it's those who wear the red and black.

In short, if you're NC and want to say that no surge makes the JH useless:

1) You're lying as it doesn't make it useless, just requires you to adjust your tactics (surge STILL works...you just have to turn it off when you get there and can't fire the whole way...you'll get no pity from any of the scattercannon MAX pilots who currently have to do this and have a cooldown period before they can fire).

and

2) Quit your bitching

[LimpBIT]

well maybe if we keep bitching then they will stop the changes.

[Krinsath]

Doubt it, this isn't a "balance fix" as much as it is an "exploit fix". All the whining in the world from the NC doesn't stop the quad shot exploit from going away, and I doubt it will work here. PS is a better game for this change overall.

[Eldanesh]

What really bugs me, more than the nerf, nerfs I can deal with. (I mean, now I am going have to make like I am playing Halo in Legendary dealing with these rexos in surgile now, but it is still managable.)

What I don't get is the bitterness that some people have pent-up about surgiles, like its just the tactic that kills them. I mean, people laughing their asses off on the forums and stupid "HAHA noob exploit whore I hope you enjoy getting nerfed!" tells.

Jeeze, people who prefer surge + agile are still people. Up close they trade precious halves of seconds of TTK simply to be able to move around the enemy and flank/ outmanuver, etc. Just because the devs decided to give us the shit end of the stick does not entitle people who disliked surgile to act like total jackasses, good players will manage, no matter how nerfed. ;) When they nerfed vehicle mowing, the good magrider drives still come through, maybe this means that when they nerf surgile it will no longer be associated with noob and I can start calling people rexonoobs.

Do you really want all combat to be as forumlaic as either have rexo HA or you are dead indoors? Surgile hardly dominates, if you are a good shot with a decent machine you should easily be able to track someone surging, remember, just because you have slightly better gear does not entitle you to a 100%, a 90%, a 80%, or even a 70% chance to win. Its all in how you apply what you have to the situation.

Please just try surgiling for a little while before they nerf it, its really harder than it looks/people make it out to be, before throwing a blanket statment of noobhammer over people, walk around in their surge-shoes. (Yes, I have played both HA and MA rexos, both for about 3 weeks each (MA prior to rexo buff), easier than putting on a hat too; Surgiling is just so much more fun to play with.)

*To those who started moaning about weapon balences*

Please stop bitching about MA balence, it irks me as MA is really one of the best-balenced certs out there and if they changed it, the resulting imbalence would be far worse than any HA imbalence. To those who say the CoF on cycler is too big, take the brick off the trigger and burst, cycler has a tighter CoF than the gauss for the first few shots and in bursts can be more accurate while drawing longer bursts. Pulsar too is just as capable as the gauss/cycler/whatever I have met many skilled pulsar users out there, buffing it just because whiney little Billy has a hard time one-shotting max's on 2ndary is absolutely not needed.

Pre-lasher buff if they had simply fixed 4-shot on JH and *maybe* added 5 to the clip then HA would be balenced. (Bitching about CoF or ammo space on MCG will get nowhere, that thing has a massive clip and the best HA range, its an awesome weapon and yes I do store many of them. br 1-11 in one night with that thing! wewt! :rofl: )
EDIT:
Also, Striker: each of those missiles does a little less than a phoenix does. If its a buggy as you make it out to be then I don't wanna see it fixed. 3-4 guys with strikers firing on a Van will take it down FAST as is, Phoenix has a slow as hell TTK, however hiding makes up for it. AV is well-balenced atm. I will concede that the lockons to deploables and turrets are just screwy, but on vehicles its damn effective.

Enforcer is the best buggy right now imo, however the thresher has hella AV damage, it still is lacking the shot-speed it needs as well as the ammo it needs. Marauder too need some love, pre-balence pass the grenade on the marauder was awesome, its just terrible now.

Claiming that AV maxs are a legitmate empire advantage is almost as bad as saying that one empires knife has too distictive a sound. :rolleyes:

Burster does need a lil to hit that lib on the ceiling, as is a buster has to spend an inordiate amount of effort to hit a lib while starfire/sparrows just lock on, up close bursters can do just as good if not better than other av.

On tanks: Mags/ Prowlers are hardly gimped, Prowlers simply need to be used more by TR. (I shake my head whenever I have to watch Tr insistant on zerging tower-to-base on foot rather than rolling armor) Magriders in their element, on water are neigh unstoppable and on ground by sniping/ hit + run they are awesome tankhunters. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they own at AI it sucks at it, they really need to get rid of the "speedbump" effect you get from mowing, it totally killed magrider AI.

TR - Striker, DC, Pounder, Burster, Marauder, Prowler (WTF DPS on this thing is nuts up close, if the gunner can hit for shit it will chew up a vanguard, even without the 12mm)

VS - Beamer, Pulsar, Thresher

NC - Jackhammer MAYBE

Imo,
TR - buggie + AA max buff (slight) + undeployed TR maxes need to be a little closer to their counterparts in other empires
VS - buggie buff
NC - (Just leave them alone, dropping the 5m lash will drop JH back into place, although I still am for dropping 2ndary for a tighter pellet spread, even if its not as tight as sweeper, tighter.)

For all: unilateral AV max buffs/redesign, The devs will be buffign cloakers anyway so no comment on pistols

[Seer]

I've been running around in rexo without surge since beta, and surgiles never bugged me. I'm ambivalent about this adjustment.

[BDMJ]

Krinsath that balance discussion was the biggest load of horsecrap I have seen in a long time. The weapons are balanced for the most part and your bitching is even more obnoxious than that which you complain about because it is so damn constant. Regarding the quad shot "exploit" fix, keep in mind that the devs can call anything an exploit at any time and change it. If it was such a huge exploit, why did it take the devs 8 months to fix it, did it just slip their minds?

[Krinsath]

What really bugs me, more than the nerf, nerfs I can deal with. (I mean, now I am going have to make like I am playing Halo in Legendary dealing with these rexos in surgile now, but it is still managable.)

So you'll be like everyone who plays TR now. Congrats. :)

What I don't get is the bitterness that some people have pent-up about surgiles, like its just the tactic that kills them. I mean, people laughing their asses off on the forums and stupid "HAHA noob exploit whore I hope you enjoy getting nerfed!" tells.

Not that it's really excusable to be an ass under any circumstances, you must understand that these people have vindication that the tactic being used was indeed an exploit and needs to be fixed. It's the backlash from the Surgile attitude of "Well, you guys just suck...get better!"

Jeeze, people who prefer surge + agile are still people. Up close they trade precious halves of seconds of TTK simply to be able to move around the enemy and flank/ outmanuver, etc. Just because the devs decided to give us the shit end of the stick does not entitle people who disliked surgile to act like total jackasses, good players will manage, no matter how nerfed. ;) When they nerfed vehicle mowing, the good magrider drives still come through, maybe this means that when they nerf surgile it will no longer be associated with noob and I can start calling people rexonoobs.

Indeed, the Agiles who stay indoors will be the ones who are good. However, CQB is the realm of the Rexo...the Devs have decided to patch over an exploit to ensure that the game does what it was supposed to do when they thought it up. The Surgile was not what they had thought of for base assaults. Now, they're getting rid of it. Does that mean the Agile will not be seen indoors anymore? No...just means they're going to be a lot less common on the point of attack...which is as it should be.

Do you really want all combat to be as forumlaic as either have rexo HA or you are dead indoors? Surgile hardly dominates, if you are a good shot with a decent machine you should easily be able to track someone surging, remember, just because you have slightly better gear does not entitle you to a 100%, a 90%, a 80%, or even a 70% chance to win. Its all in how you apply what you have to the situation.

Slightly better gear? Twice the armor does not constitute "slightly" better. Get a tank, now take on another tank with the same gun but twice the armor, you'll lose 10 times out of 10 (assuming you don't have an insta-kill gun). Indoors, the combat isn't as clear cut as a tank battle, but it should still be a heavy advantage to those who choose to specialize in infantry combat. Those would be your HA Rexos. If you've not dedicated yourself to infantry assaults that much for whatever reason, that's fine. But don't cry because the assault specialists are now better at what they're SUPPOSED to be better than you at.

Please just try surgiling for a little while before they nerf it, its really harder than it looks/people make it out to be, before throwing a blanket statment of noobhammer over people, walk around in their surge-shoes. (Yes, I have played both HA and MA rexos, both for about 3 weeks each (MA prior to rexo buff), easier than putting on a hat too; Surgiling is just so much more fun to play with.)

Surge isn't the problem, Surge warping is. Surge in terms of speed remains unchanged. You can STILL surge down a hallway to get at the enemy. You just can't spam whatever weapon you have while doing it. Have someone lob plasma grenades down the hall with a 3 second fuse, run in after the last one is launched, you'll arrive about the time the last grenade goes off and draw your weapon and fight...damnit! There I go again mentioning teamwork and tactics rather than Rambo-style play...silly me...keep forgetting that PS is about the twitch gamers and not about teamwor....oh WAIT! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO WORK AS A GROUP AND NOT AS INDIVIDUALS IN PLANETSIDE.

*To those who started moaning about weapon balences*

Please stop bitching about MA balence, it irks me as MA is really one of the best-balenced certs out there and if they changed it, the resulting imbalence would be far worse than any HA imbalence. To those who say the CoF on cycler is too big, take the brick off the trigger and burst, cycler has a tighter CoF than the gauss for the first few shots and in bursts can be more accurate while drawing longer bursts. Pulsar too is just as capable as the gauss/cycler/whatever I have met many skilled pulsar users out there, buffing it just because whiney little Billy has a hard time one-shotting max's on 2ndary is absolutely not needed.

Cycler and Gauss are perfectly fine the way they are. The Pulsar is useless. Yes, it can be used, but at the ranges that it is most effective, the Lasher is beginning its effective range. The damage degradation on it is shameful...at range it does less damage per shot than the Cycler. It is a short-ranged rifle, and that makes it useless as a rifle. Tone down the damage degradation, and the weapon becomes much more viable...maybe then you'll see VS soldiers carrying something other than a Lasher.

Pre-lasher buff if they had simply fixed 4-shot on JH and *maybe* added 5 to the clip then HA would be balenced. (Bitching about CoF or ammo space on MCG will get nowhere, that thing has a massive clip and the best HA range, its an awesome weapon and yes I do store many of them. br 1-11 in one night with that thing! wewt! :rofl: )

The HA is almost balanced as it is. Once they fix the Lasher bugs, it'll be about right except the JH should have the Sweeper's pellet spread (why should the 2 cert MA weapon do more damage per average hit than the 6 cert HA weapon?). The MCG does have the best HA range and ammo...trade off being the high CoF and the low damage per hit. One of the few weapons with the TR design motif that is actually effective.

[BadAsh]

The other empires don't have HA weapons? I'm sorry for assuming that the McG and Lasher existed, much less that they were effective at close range primarily.

I never said that other empires did not have HA. I just said that the other empires have slower TTK HA but they have an effective medium range. The NC lose the meduim range for a faster CQB TTK. So the HA+Surge combo was more advantageous to the NC than the other 2 empires. I also never said the TR and VS don't gain advantage from Surge. My only point was that the NC got more bang for their buck with Surge. That's all I said.

[Eldanesh]

Don't even wanna start a quote-war, but the only difference between a HA rexo and a surgile HA is the surgile spends an implant, the Rexo spends 3 certs. I am not saying it is right to warp, however losing all the mobility one once had while trying to close the distance is placing too much on equipment. This is an fps, not an rpg and also indoors, the combat isn't as clear cut as a tank battle. ;)
but it should still be a heavy advantage to those who choose to specialize in infantry combat.
1v1 it should be even, in the heat of battle where there are many random factors, the extra armor does make a difference, but in the end it should be one persons skill that determines how they fare, not their gear.

Surgiles are just as capable of teamwork as Rexos are as well, in many cases more so as rexos can carry much of what they need with less inventory-fumbling.

[Krinsath]

Krinsath that balance discussion was the biggest load of horsecrap I have seen in a long time. The weapons are balanced for the most part and your bitching is even more obnoxious than that which you complain about because it is so damn constant. Regarding the quad shot "exploit" fix, keep in mind that the devs can call anything an exploit at any time and change it. If it was such a huge exploit, why did it take the devs 8 months to fix it, did it just slip their minds?

Why does it take Devs forever to fix things? Because they need to be sure it isn't just pointless complaints and that there is an issue. Surge warping was an issue they tried to fix. It didn't, they probably exhausted every avenue available to fix the problem before arriving here.

Weapons for the most part are balanced in terms of damage at their ideal range. In terms of other factors, there are some severe imbalances.

The TR MAX to use it's weapons at full effectiveness has to be stock still and can only take 2 hits from a decimator before dying. A coordinated team can kill a locked down MAX at the backdoor before the MAX has a chance to respond. THAT is an imbalance, even though the weaponry is in tune.

The Pulsar, while decent at close range, is a very weak rifle at a distance, which is where rifles are supposed to excel. The trade-off is that you can do equally little damage to armor and to infantry. I'm not asking for a whole-sale upping of the Pulsar's damage, as up close it is fine. I'm saying the degradation at range needs to be reduced so that there's a chance of doing damage at more than 40m.

The vehicles, like-wise, are balanced on a straight weapon comparison. The Prowler however is a much larger target with weaker armor. Factor in that the TR must sacrifice an extra trooper to ward off aircraft (which no other empire has to do) and it becomes slightly imbalanced. If you're going to design vehicles to be balanced 1v1 and you're aiming for an ideal 33% population split amongst the empires, why on earth would you give one empire a vehicle that requires more crew?

Again, examine more than just the amount of damage a weapon system can do. There are more factors than one at work, and as illustrated in the case of the TR MAXes, they can far outweigh the benefits of using it.

The JH, on a damage basis, is the most powerful HA. This ignores the range imbalance between it and the other HAs. In this case, the imbalances are closer to offsetting each other. In those other cases, they do not. That's what needs to be fixed, a weapon is not defined by the amount of damage it does, but also the means by which you have to employ it.

On tanks: Mags/ Prowlers are hardly gimped, Prowlers simply need to be used more by TR. (I shake my head whenever I have to watch Tr insistant on zerging tower-to-base on foot rather than rolling armor) Magriders in their element, on water are neigh unstoppable and on ground by sniping/ hit + run they are awesome tankhunters. I don't know what you are talking about when you say they own at AI it sucks at it, they really need to get rid of the "speedbump" effect you get from mowing, it totally killed magrider AI.

They're not gimped, but they're a far cry from being able to compete with the Vanguard. I think the Vanguard is an example of how the tanks SHOULD be. The Mag is quite close in that it trades armor for manueverabilty and also has the able to reliably down aircraft (nothing more fun than swatting mosquitos with it's main gun). What did the TR trade their armor for? A taller tank with a slower speed that requires more crew? That is the problem. Those little non-damage factors when compared to weapons of their class. I love gunning a Vanguard, especially when I see a Prowler, because I know that a good Vaguard crew will beat a Prowler 9 times out of 10...and a crewed Prowler kill is about as good as a base cap. When 2 Vanguards can stop 4 Prowlers, there's something wrong on the face of that...especially when the NC needed 4 soldiers to field those tanks and the TR probably had between 10 and 12.

And for AI, I was referring to the Mag's guns...you know, the thing you're supposed to use to kill people.

AV MAXes are sad, they need help since they're big targets and can't hit back.

[Krinsath]

1v1 it should be even, in the heat of battle where there are many random factors, the extra armor does make a difference, but in the end it should be one persons skill that determines how they fare, not their gear.

Skill should be around 40% of the equation. Equipment should be 40% and random dumb luck the remainder (battle IS chaos, after all).

That means that skill can offset lesser equipment, but if all things are equal, the one with the better equipment for the situation is going to win.

If you have a horrible Mosquito pilot and you're an excellent Gauss user, you can kill the mosquito even though you're not really carrying the right equipment. However, if you're facing someone of roughly equal skill, and they have better equipment for the situation, then you're going to lose more often than not. Yes, this may mean the end of some people's fantasies that they are really the best videogame player ever, or it may simply confirm it. Time will tell. Equipment and skill cancel each other out, but giving up anything to the enemy on either is going to result in being killed.

[BDMJ]

Why does it take Devs forever to fix things? Because they need to be sure it isn't just pointless complaints and that there is an issue. Surge warping was an issue they tried to fix. It didn't, they probably exhausted every avenue available to fix the problem before arriving here.


If they need so much time to determine if something is an issue why did it take them 2 weeks to fix lasher 2.0, and EIGHT MONTHS to fix the quad shot? I think they were able to fix the lasher pretty damn fast, so what the fuck was the holdup with the JH, which was a very widely used "exploit"? They can't have failed to notice it, and the fix they made was nothing more than a database change.

The TR MAX to use it's weapons at full effectiveness has to be stock still and can only take 2 hits from a decimator before dying. A coordinated team can kill a locked down MAX at the backdoor before the MAX has a chance to respond. THAT is an imbalance, even though the weaponry is in tune.


Better example please, inside a base any max might as well be standing still due to the size of the hitbox. Outside survivability doesn't matter as any max signs its death warrant by leaving a base.

The vehicles, like-wise, are balanced on a straight weapon comparison. The Prowler however is a much larger target with weaker armor. Factor in that the TR must sacrifice an extra trooper to ward off aircraft (which no other empire has to do) and it becomes slightly imbalanced. If you're going to design vehicles to be balanced 1v1 and you're aiming for an ideal 33% population split amongst the empires, why on earth would you give one empire a vehicle that requires more crew?

The main guns for all tanks are balanced, and no tank is considered an AA platform. Please remind me what you were bitching about again. Get a more realistic conception of tanks and their role in this game, then post again. In the role of infantry and vehicle combat, the prowler is equal to the vanguard or the mag. The third gunner gives it the potential to have even greater firepower.

Now that I feel I have refuted your points regarding balance sufficiently, I think we can get back to the issue at hand.

I would prefer the devs to give us a real fix rather than pander to the whiners. As I stated earlier, this quick fix mentality is killing the game. After all, what has been hurting the performance of the game the most has been the performance "quick" fixes introduced by the devs. After their optimizations sent the average user's game performance to hell, the devs cut out frames in an attempt to "fix" the problem, giving the high end users the shaft. Why not just roll back the changes? That might require re-doing a patch, so why not just slap a bandaid on it and call it fixed.

[Krinsath]

If they need so much time to determine if something is an issue why did it take them 2 weeks to fix lasher 2.0, and EIGHT MONTHS to fix the quad shot? I think they were able to fix the lasher pretty damn fast, so what the fuck was the holdup with the JH, which was a very widely used "exploit"? They can't have failed to notice it, and the fix they made was nothing more than a database change.

Chances are because they attritbuted the problem to other issues, and wasn't readily observed. Computer techs can spend hours trying to troubleshoot a machine that won't connect to the Internet when it doesn't have an IP address...an obvious problem to someone who knows and deals with networks everyday, but not to someone who may not use the Internet often.

Same deal, they may not have sat down and thought about the process that was going on with the NC being able to fire a chamber that had already been discharged and how that made no sense to fire an empty barrel.

Better example please, inside a base any max might as well be standing still due to the size of the hitbox. Outside survivability doesn't matter as any max signs its death warrant by leaving a base.

VS MAXes are still effective indoors as their jump jets give them a bit of dodge capability, NC MAXes can compete for a bit if used in numbers as the shield allows them to absorb more damage. The TR get....to make themselves bigger targets! That's the point, the other two get a special ability that improves their defensive abilities while not gimping them completely offensively. The TR get one that forces them to sacrifice any offensive ability whatsoever to get damage levels that the other empires enjoy at all times. Factor in that the other empires get the equivalent damage ratings PLUS their special ability PLUS the ability to carry the fight to the enemy, and that's why the TR MAXes are imbalanced. Does being a MAX at the moment just suck in general? Yes, but it sucks to be a TR MAX more than it does to be a VS or NC MAX (since I use all three, it's quite obvious to me at any rate...play much VS or TR over there?)

The main guns for all tanks are balanced, and no tank is considered an AA platform. Please remind me what you were bitching about again. Get a more realistic conception of tanks and their role in this game, then post again. In the role of infantry and vehicle combat, the prowler is equal to the vanguard or the mag. The third gunner gives it the potential to have even greater firepower.

Now that I feel I have refuted your points regarding balance sufficiently, I think we can get back to the issue at hand.

The Prowler's guns are equivalent to the Vanguard's. Problem is that it's never just Vanguard on Prowler. Reavers eat Prowlers alive because 1) the dual link system doesn't work well on *any* vehicle and 2) getting a 12mm gunner is quite difficult. Compare this to the Vanguard, who uses 20mm guns that are controlled by the one gunner or the Mag, who's main gun is murder on attacking aircraft. You can't isolate your examination to just how the armor performs against armor, but the fact is that the Prowler cannot compete on the battlefield as it has nothing that really sets it apart. The dual 100mms are nice, but the rest of the tank is crap. 1 characteristic out of many being good equates to a rather crappy vehicle. It can't counter aircraft, it can't counter other tanks, it handles like a stuck pig, it can't go over water, you can see it from a mile away beacuse it's so huge and it can't really counter massed infantry that well. What exactly is the Prowler good for then? You can take down individual infantry like a champ, but is that what a battle tank should really be aspiring to?

I would prefer the devs to give us a real fix rather than pander to the whiners. As I stated earlier, this quick fix mentality is killing the game. After all, what has been hurting the performance of the game the most has been the performance "quick" fixes introduced by the devs. After their optimizations sent the average user's game performance to hell, the devs cut out frames in an attempt to "fix" the problem, giving the high end users the shaft. Why not just roll back the changes? That might require re-doing a patch, so why not just slap a bandaid on it and call it fixed.

So wait...you complain that they're doing a quick fix in the same post that you complain about them taking a long time to fix anything? I hope you realize the irony there. Given that you have no idea how the PS engine works (nor do I, admittedly), please stop trying to comment about the ease of any operations involving it. Roll backs might seem simple, but they seldom are. If there is a problem with the engine itself, it tends to be a complex process to remove it. Since this appears to be a highly involved issue to resolve, I'd rather have a "quick fix" than no fix at all. When the real fix is put in, they can feel free to take the quick fix out...but leaving flaws in a product intentionally when something *could* be done to solve (or at the very least alleviate) the problem for the short-term is idiotic.

[Seer]

Eldanesh, you have some basic ideas about rexo, and planetside itself, wrong. An indoors cqb fight against rexo should be hard on a person wearing agile, not 'even.' Maybe in other games a person's skill determines the outcome, but here in planetside the outcome is very much a factor of the terms of engagement. A person's weaponry, armor, and position are all equally as important as skill. Skills like leading, aiming, and situational awareness certainly help, but the skill gap between two players is likely much smaller than the gap between their weapon, armor, and position.

Just ask yourself: do you think a infiltrator taking on a tank with his beamer is going to get by on skill? That's an extreme example, but there are situations in this game that give rise to power differences that can and should nullify differences in skill. As many other posters have stated, PS is a different beast from most FPS games with their ludicrous flying headshots and bunny hopping, etc. PS fights have always been about what you bring to them. You bring the right tools for the job and you'll get it done.

The people who are climbing up the walls over this surge issue can take it or leave it, but I find their refusal to adapt in the face of change evidence of a certain blindness. If the dev team decided to nerf one of my main weapons, like the thumper, to hell, I'd just drop it and win some other way. When I see people so attached to a game mechanic, it sets off alarm bells. Surge is an anomaly amongst the implants--as implemented, it changed the face of the game. Implants are supposed to be nice little devices to kick on when you need them, not the mana of life without which you would die. Obviously something was amiss.

I'm not going to address the surge warp issue. I rarely see warpers, so I think they are changing this because of a deeper problem with surge as they see it. I didn't use or mind surge as it was implemented, but I gather I was in the minority on that. I'm willing to wait to see what happens.

[Krinsath]

My predicted course of events:

1) People who rely on surge as their primary combat tactic will complain and moan in the hopes that the Devs will change their mind, even though that has very rarely (if ever) happened once something has reached the "in patch X" phase.

2) The Devs will put the patch on the test server. No talent crybabies will have already cancelled their subscriptions and left. Good players will go to the Test server and see what impact it is really going to have.

3) The changes will go live, about this time the Devs will realize that they've already lost a huge number of players because they didn't do something months ago.

4) People will find something new to bitch about.

5) Repeat number 1 for new object of bitching.

When the Devs nerfed the JH time and time again, I didn't complain, despite the fact that one of my primaries uses the JH quite extensively. I knew that if the JH was not performing as the Devs felt it should (as in the end, they make the desicion on what stays and goes), then that needed to be fixed, even if the weapon or tactics I had used previously weren't as powerful. If you're good, you'll be successful no matter what. If you're not, then yes...taking away the crutch will be a major impact on your performance. Sink or swim time for the surgiles.

[BDMJ]

With my JH/lasher comparison, I was not whining about the time it took for them to correct the JH. I was using that to illustrate that giving the right circumstances (public response), the devs can work pretty fast. Other times, for seemingly inexplicable reasons, it takes them far too long.

They have made great changes in a timely manner, and set the bar for themselves. They consistently fail to reach that bar now.

[Krinsath]

Lasher 2.0 was prior to the test server being up and working IIRC, hence the Devs didn't get to see how insanely overpowered it was in groups. Didn't take very long to see that one had gone awry.

It wasn't until somebody brought up that 4 shots from a JH killed an agile and severely hurt (if not killed, since damage comes from everywhere in fighting) a Rexo and they could fire 4 shots in >1 second that they said "wait...on a gun that has only three firing chambers, should you really be able to fire 4 shots that quickly?"

That was a combination of game balance and fitting with the story of PS. That was a database bug, and not broken code. There was nothing wrong with the JH itself, but the devs felt the way it was being employed violated the intended use of the weapon.

Surge, likewise, isn't being changed in terms of effects...it's being changed in terms of the conditions surrounding those benefits. At least you have the option to turn it off and immediately draw your weapon, something that MAXes don't have the option of, and the HA weapons are not terribly far behind the MAX weapons. The Devs evidently feel that this is a travel/defense implant, not a cornerstone to someone's strategy implant. No other implant can serve as the basis of your combat strategy, so why should this one be allowed to? Add in that Surge is the most visible trigger of warping for the significant percentage of players who experience that problem at some point or another (and for those people who know who they are...unless you're paying to upgrade everyone's computer...STFU) and you get to why the Devs are now starting to do something.

Why'd they take so long? Who knows. It could be that looking at the implants fell below getting Capitol Buildings (a big project) and various other things in place. Other projects probably included getting Core Combat into a useable state since there is a large percentage of people (98% of those with the expansion) who'd really like to know why they spent an extra $30 (they'd be the unruly mob to your left with pitchforks and torches who are burning Spork in effigy). Both of those were big draws on resources and then add in the current complaints about the Lasher and the TR MAX switch (which didn't really help THAT much..."Yeah, the CoF on the DC is hideous, but it doesn't get any worse the longer you fire!") and the Devs are a busy group. Someone finally decided that yes, the Surge implant was being misused and set about fixing it.

[Rayder]

I'm seriously going to miss being able to surge with my Lasher :(

[Marsman]

Well the devs aren't stupid, but they are human too. Sure they missed things or not anticipated something here and there, but for the most part I've found them to be very much aware of most conditions within the game.

The surge problem has been around for a long time and I'm sure the thought of not allowing weapons during surge was considered by the team long ago. Did they take the quick fix then? No. Were they lazy and just toss it in? No. They gave it as much attention as they could to work on correcting the problem. Patch notes reveil that code changes were introduced to "improve" the problem. When the problems continued after those changes, did the just give up and take the easy fix? No. They went back to work on it some more. The total amount of time and fixes spent is proof enough that this isn't easily fixable. Then and only then did they go with the more dramatic solution to the problem. They might even come a day when they refine the code enough for it's return, but it's an effective solution for the moment.

If I seem to be waving the Dev Team flag alot, I guess I am. We have a team of game designers willing to become a part of the gamming community. We know more about what happening with the game in this community because of their involvement than with most other game communities. And yet, we see people basically kick them in the nuts at every step. Perhaps they have had bad experiences with other games and their teams. I've seen plenty that really do appear to not care less. But my every instinct says this team is just as concerned, just as "passionate" about this game as most of this community is. Fortunetly I do see a majority of the community appears to understand all this which give me hope that they'll outlast those who don't. :D

Planetside is an ever evolving creation. Change is inevitable.

[GreyFox]

Planetside is an ever evolving creation. Change is inevitable.
Indeed. And a good post in general Marsman :thumbsup:

[Lartnev]

Nothing wrong with waving the Dev team flag :)

It needs to be done more often on the official boards though :(

[Queensidecastle]

I suppose you could spin it that way if you so desire. The fact of the matter is that I have the luxury of not having to settle for mediocrity since I dont run a fan site that solicits the partacipation of the dev team. This allows me to say exactly what I think. I have praised the Devs in the past for positive changes and I have slammed them for the poor ones. I dont have to pretend every change is a good one when many are in fact not. I understand that It would not make sense for a site such as PSU to be harshly critical of the devs because getting participation from devs is hard enough as it is. Any intelligent person knows that Devs will not participate on a site that would ever criticize them. The proper strategy is praise the devs on good changes and be silent on the really bad ones, and of course avoid any controversial topics altogether. I find this totally acceptable as it is very usefull to have sites that can get dev participation and so in the end it is worth it as long as you take it with a grain of salt.

I personally prefer to take the Lum The Mad approach. I freely praise good changes, and I slam the bad ones. I make no descrimation of a bad Idea just because it is a Dev. If you are wrong, I am just going to flat out tell you you are wrong. If you are right, same thing.

Using the excuse that Planetside is an evolving game is a crutch. It is a way to settle for mediocrity. At some point, Planetside is just not Planetside anymore and that is what this Surge change is. There are some core facets of online games you do not change. This is plain and simply a poor change. It griefs the players, doesnt solve the warping problem and ruins a core aspect of infantry combat that has been in place since release.

It has been clear for a long time that the warping problem keys off Jumping. It is clear that no one complains about surging rexos or surging infiltrators. What you people are doing who are backing this change is advocating mediocrity. You are advocating a wide ranging nerf to deal with a narrowly defined problem. It is quite simply a lack of understanding of the aspects of this problem. It is in pure ignorance that someone would advocate the nerfing of Surge in non-warping related scenario.

Therefore advocating the wholesale nerf of Surge even when understanding the following:

1)Warping still will not be fixed with this proposed change
2)Warping while surging is a problem with jumping
3)Rexos and infiltrators have never been a problem with warping
4)Heavy assault, surge, and Agile/Standard is the exact formula that is causing the problem, not anything else
5)A core style of infantry combat that has been in place for almost a year will get the axe even if it is not related to the specific conditions that cause the problem

can really only mean that eitherYOU cannot adapt to that style of combat and therefore want it nerfed so that you can compete or you simply cannot comprehend what the specifics of this problem actually are.

YOU would advocate Rexos with SA/MA/HA not be able to surge while in combat
YOU would advocate that Infiltrators not be allowed to surge with a Pistol or a boomer out
all just because some Agiles/Standard warp around with Heavy assault. You would advocate all this despite knowing that disableing jumping will solve this issue without the above side effects to gameplay. You would advocate all this despite knowing that turning off surging with Heavy assault would solve this problem, or having Stamina drain out in 5-10 seconds when Heavy assault is equiped.

It is shortsighted. It is ridiculous. Most of all, it is selfish to ruin the gameplay of others by advocating a change even when there are better alternatives, but the most dissapointing of all, is that the Devs would give in to this demand just to shut you up. I have not heard one acceptable argument as to why the Devs should ignor the specific issue with HA/Surge/Agile warp and instead wholesale nerf the way surged has worked as intended since the day of release. If you cant make that argument, dont even bother responding.

That being said I want to appologize for my earlier outburst. So, I appologize to Silverlord and anyone else I might have insulted

[Lartnev]

It is shortsighted. It is ridiculous. Most of all, it is selfish to ruin the gameplay of others by advocating a change even when there are better alternatives, but the most dissapointing of all, is that the Devs would give in to this demand just to shut you up. I have not heard one acceptable argument as to why the Devs should ignor the specific issue with HA/Surge/Agile warp and instead wholesale nerf the way surged has worked as intended since the day of release.

And what about my gameplay? What about when I'm guarding a tower in a MAX suit and suddenly an NC surger comes out of nowhere and plants a decimator in my face? Do I not have the right to have at least the opportunity to get a couple of shots off first? People running around the corner and then fading back I can handle, but not just appearing in front of me.

As I've said before, I view surge like the MAX autorun. It's a way to get from A to B as quickly as possible, not necessarily outside, could be from spawn toom to back door, or to the wall. So this change is more in keeping with I think surge should be, holstering you weapon just gives you the opportunity to make the most of the implant. But I also see the other side of the coin, that it's a way of closing the distance to take advantage of CQC weapons such as the Jackhammer and to a lesser extent the other HA weapons. But this warping means that instead of them closing the distance, they jump the distance which means you don't have the chance to at least take advantage of any range advantage you may have while you have it.

I'd like to know what the alternative is? I'm sure the devs would like to know too.

[Marsman]

... The fact of the matter is that I have the luxury of not having to settle for mediocrity since I dont run a fan site that solicits the partacipation of the dev team. This allows me to say exactly what I think.I and the rest of PSU staff are under no obligation to agree with the devs. As long as comments, good or bad, are contructive then I think anyone and everyone should say "exactly what they think". I understand that It would not make sense for a site such as PSU to be harshly critical of the devs because getting participation from devs is hard enough as it is. Any intelligent person knows that Devs will not participate on a site that would ever criticize them."Unfairly" harshly critical -perhaps, but the devs don't want a false sense of how people feel either. If they deserve some critisizm, by all means speak your mind as long as it's civil. It doesn't get much harsher than the OF, yet they participate there so I don't buy that argument, sorry. The proper strategy is praise the devs on good changes and be silent on the really bad ones, and of course avoid any controversial topics altogether.Well that may be your strategy, but I don't think that ours. Sure praise them when the do good, I agree and should be more of that. But to be silent on things that are bad, ah - no. If you don't like something I fully encourage you to say so and will defend to the end your right to say it. That is the right of the community.
It has been clear for a long time that the warping problem keys off Jumping. It is clear that no one complains about surging rexos or surging infiltrators. Oh really? I think many people have a problem with being attacked with no chance to fight back. Sure the majority of the problems may lie around the issues you mentioned but there are other issues I assure you....can really only mean that either YOU cannot adapt to that style of combat ...Its a little hard to 'adapt' to not being able to fire at a player who only appears on your screen for 1/10 of a sec before warping to another location. It's a little hard to 'adapt' to the quick blink of a cloaker screaming through a spawn room boomering troops for run after run. In such a team game, no one person should be able to cowboy as much as surge allows.
You would advocate all this despite knowing that turning off surging with Heavy assault would solve this problem, or having Stamina drain out in 5-10 seconds when Heavy assault is equiped.Sorry, I don't know that that would solve all the probems - some no doubt, but as I said before, there are more issues to this besides your specific examples.I have not heard one acceptable argument as to why the Devs should ignor the specific issue with HA/Surge/Agile warp and instead wholesale nerf the way surged has worked as intended since the day of release.Your first assumption is that this was the intended way that surge was to work. The Devs have already stated that it was not. The HA surgiles are the most common, most annoying, and therefore have the most attention. Jumping adds to the issue but is not the entire issue. Warping occurs at tops of stairs and with virtually any collision your character flys about. It affects all armors to varying degrees. While I wouldn't call this decision the best solution, it does level the playing field for everyone and turn this back into the team game in which it's intended. If you want a game you can cowboy in and have 50/1 kill/death ratios - you have probably selected the wrong game.That being said I want to appologize for my earlier outburst. So, I appologize to Silverlord and anyone else I might have insulted
My utmost respect for your cander. We can agree to disagree. Viva La Community. :)

[Queensidecastle]

Thats an entirely seperate issue. I have said it before on this forum 100 times that I think the Decimator is way overpowered in reguards to MAX suits. That doesnt have anything to do with warping and Surge. Now if the trooper is warping, why dont we do something reasonable and address that spacific issue. Rexos never appear out of nowhere and Infiltrators in 90% of cases arent even a threat to MAXs. You would have them nerfed anyway when there are better ways to handle this situation? I just dont get it. How can someone possibly defend this line of logic?

[Zatrais]

It is shortsighted. It is ridiculous. Most of all, it is selfish to ruin the gameplay of others by advocating a change even when there are better alternatives, but the most dissapointing of all, is that the Devs would give in to this demand just to shut you up. I have not heard one acceptable argument as to why the Devs should ignor the specific issue with HA/Surge/Agile warp and instead wholesale nerf the way surged has worked as intended since the day of release. If you cant make that argument, dont even bother responding.


How about this, they are unable to fix the problem. They've tried several times, but they are unable to fix it. There's physical limitations to server hardware and the amount of updates they can push thru their and your pipe whitout clogging it up. They are bound by the min reqs as stated on the pack of the game and they have an obligation to keep the game playable to most people. Fighting people you cannot see is not playable.

So, the vocal minority of surgile users get a slap in the face. Cry me a river, they had their fun in the sun. The warpers has no reason (other than wanting to keep an unfair advantage) what so ever to argue for keeping it as it is, seeing how it gives them a serverly unfair advantage over others.

I for one can't wait for the change to surge. Should be a most welcomed adition.

[Seer]

Marsman had a good point about the infiltrators boomering the spawn room. I can't even draw my weapon before they're out the door, forget about destroying the boomer before they set it off. Only happens to me a couple times a week, but I'll file it under valid but frustrating surge tactics.

[Marsman]

Marsman had a good point about the infiltrators boomering the spawn room. I can't even draw my weapon before they're out the door, forget about destroying the boomer before they set it off. Only happens to me a couple times a week, but I'll file it under valid but frustrating surge tactics.And I wouldn't even have a problem with that if they only did it once, but I seen 3,4,5,6+ times in a row as they surge around in a circle so fast no one can catch them even with surge themselves, nor be able to put more than one bullet into them as they whizz by.

[Queensidecastle]

I find the notion that Infiltrators are overpowerd just laughable and furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is. As far as not being able to fix the problem: I will give you that they have tried to fix Warping. They may in fact not be able to solve this one technically, but when the final solution is to nerf, then you want to nerf with as little impact as possible. Choosing to hoslter weapons as opposed to disable jumping for example is not because of a technical limitation, it is because of months of whining and is a knee jerk reaction

[Marsman]

well I'd hardly call infitrators over-powered either. If fact they've taken plenty of hits over the months. This does limit them further and I do hope the devs give them some more attention soon. Infiltrators were brought up simply to point out there are multiple issues with surge and addressing one part of the problem leaving the other intact is just not an effective solution either.

[Queensidecastle]

I am just not buying it. Warping is not that common to begin with and 90% of that is because of jumping. We can all live with the miniscule ammout of warp that would remain if the proper tweaks were made. Misdirection away from the main cause of warping and why it is a problem doesnt work in this case. It is disingenuous to pretend there are "other" problems with Surge when there really is only 1 problem with how people are using it. A problem that can be fixed any number of ways other than the proposed fix that would not include such negative impacts to the game.

[Krinsath]

I find the notion that Infiltrators are overpowerd just laughable and furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is. As far as not being able to fix the problem: I will give you that they have tried to fix Warping. They may in fact not be able to solve this one technically, but when the final solution is to nerf, then you want to nerf with as little impact as possible. Choosing to hoslter weapons as opposed to disable jumping for example is not because of a technical limitation, it is because of months of whining and is a knee jerk reaction

Infiltrators are not overpowered, but a tactic to which the counter is "Wait until they're out of boomers" is ridiculous, especially when it concerns the spawn room.

Most of the people I talk to hate those who abuse Surge warpers, even if they are one themselves. Why? Because it's a cheap way to win, but when so many people abuse something, your only option if to abuse back. Fighting fire with fire, as it were. PS then degenerates into a world of Rambo players that blink in and out across people's screen. You know what a new player would say if they saw that? "Screw this...if I wanted to play a broken game full of exploits, I'll go play Counter-Strike...for free".

The problem is that the "no jumping" solution does *NOT* fix all the problems associated with surge and warping. You will still have warping with hills, stairs, ramps and any other elevation change, which no jump really doesn't address. What are they going to do...make everything flat? Hence, the no-jump is a *BAD* solution for the overall problem. Jumping happens to fit into the category of "elevation change" which is why it's the easiest way to exploit it...because you don't always have a staircase handy (though it happens commonly enough, especially in towers).

The main problem with the warpers isn't that they're hard to kill...if they're warping they're damned near impossible to kill. How can you hit that which isn't showing on your screen? That leads to frustrations in the playerbase, which leads to cancelled subscriptions, which leads to PS shutting down. Surge is no longer fitting in with the Dev's design goals, so they have decided this needs to be done to it to bring it back in line with how they feel combat should progress.

If people protest leveling the playing field, one must wonder how truly talented these individuals are, especially since their defense is "Well, why don't you get better?" Their weapon is going to be just as effective, it's just now they can't infilct any damage unless they're showing on the enemy's screen correctly. If you can't win when things are at least marginally fair, then...guess the Surgile wasn't as talented as they thought.

I doubt this is the death-knell of the Surgile, but it's the end of it's dominance in CQB. Of course, those who are truly no talent surgiles will have left before the patch makes it to the test server...and those who do have skill will look and go "meh, not that big of a change" and continue to be good players.

[TheN00b]

QSC, I seem to recall you saying on another thread how you had a pretty sweet computer rig, with a nice graphix card and good RAM. What about the people who don't have sweet computers? Do you want them all just to leave? Because warping is a large issue, though it may not be on your computer.

[Lartnev]

Thats an entirely seperate issue. I have said it before on this forum 100 times that I think the Decimator is way overpowered in reguards to MAX suits.

Like I said, in my face out of nowhere. The fact it was a decimator only added insult to injury.

A problem that can be fixed any number of ways other than the proposed fix that would not include such negative impacts to the game.

And yet you still haven't given us one of them.

If I remember rightly the problem is prediction. The server has to make assumptions as to where you are heading so that by the time clients receive that information, it's likely to be accurate. Now when you hit surge that changes things. The server has to put you that much further ahead. If you're running in a straight line this doesn't constitute a problem. But if you rapidly change direction, going round a corner for example, the server has assumed you're still going in the same direction, corrects its mistake, and you get warping. You sometimes see it with aircraft, which are going a lot faster than infantry, but they can't change direction nealy as rapidly as someone with high mouse sensitivity. Turns in aircraft and vehicles are also easier to predict as they tend to be smoother. If you removed server and client side prediction then warping would actually become worse because what you see is constantly lagging behind what has actually happened. Couple that with client side hit detection and you're asking for trouble in a game like planetside. Remove client side hit detection? Just don't go there. People would need that spread on the jackhammer.

Removing the ability to fire with surge won't stop the warping of course, what it will stop is the ability to wage combat during that warping.

I'll admit I've made some assumptions in the above paragraph concerning how the servers deal with latency, but I think it seems to hold together. Gladly correct any mistakes I have made.

[Happy lil Elf]

furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is.

Not that Oxo can read this, as he decided to put me on ignore rather than deal with me blasting his arguments to bits and pieces, but I'll post it anyway:

You do not speak for everyone. Have you done a poll? Have you talked to everyone playing Planetside about this issue? No? I didn't think so. Until you do, sit down and shut up.

[PhoenixTypeX]

Everyone should just think yourselves damn lucky to be able to have this kind of developer/community relationship. Most other games out there get no response from the devs after completion and are lucky if they get a patch every half a year and thats with no explanation of what is in the patch most of the times. So leave off the Dev's they are doing a great job.

[Seer]

To be fair, Phoenix, most other games don't require their customers to pony up every month to continue playing. The devs do have an ongoing responsibility towards us.

[Queensidecastle]

The problem is that the "no jumping" solution does *NOT* fix all the problems associated with surge and warping. You will still have warping with hills, stairs, ramps and any other elevation change, which no jump really doesn't address. What are they going to do...make everything flat? Hence, the no-jump is a *BAD* solution for the overall problem. Jumping happens to fit into the category of "elevation change" which is why it's the easiest way to exploit it...because you don't always have a staircase handy (though it happens commonly enough, especially in towers)

Are you actually telling me that you dont know that the proposed fix isnt going to stop warping? Do you really not understand that? I mean this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. I keep debating this issue with people who dont even understand the core of the problem.

Infiltrators are not overpowered, but a tactic to which the counter is "Wait until they're out of boomers" is ridiculous, especially when it concerns the spawn room
I dont even know how to respond to this one. If you cant keep infiltrators from getting into your spawn room, I dont know what to tell you. This argument is as asinine as the ones where people are out in the open and complain about being run over by a vehicle.

The main problem with the warpers isn't that they're hard to kill...if they're warping they're damned near impossible to kill. How can you hit that which isn't showing on your screen? That leads to frustrations in the playerbase, which leads to cancelled subscriptions, which leads to PS shutting down. Surge is no longer fitting in with the Dev's design goals, so they have decided this needs to be done to it to bring it back in line with how they feel combat should progress.
Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..etc but you dont even want to TRY those first. You would rather use the worst available idea for a fix that is a Huge nerf to a huge ammount of people and that Still will not stop the warping

And yet you still haven't given us one of them
I have already given you 3 of my own ideas which are lightyears better than the proposed solution. Bother reading the OF and you will find 10 more

[Kaymon]

Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..etc but you dont even want to TRY those first.

You say that like they don't have their own internal servers to test this out. A few months ago, someone suggested disabling surge while using HA, but Smokejumper replied saying the code didn't allow for it.

[KIAsan]

Dang, 11 pages and growing. I have read each argument pro and con (I'm on the pro side), but you know what, your wasting your time, surge is changing. Now, how that really affects the playerbase won't be determined until it goes live. We may end up with yet another "uber lasher" goof up, or this all just may be a lot of hot air. Fact is, there is no facts. I have heard all kinds of stuff bandied about, yet nothing to back it up (other than personal opinion, useless stats). Until we get a read from the devs AFTER it goes live, there is really no way of knowing what this means to live play (hence the play tests). At least we have more warning of this change than we did for "uber lasher" (and more thought put into it).

I would challenge all the nay sayers to start using surge as they are going to change it. In other words, holster weapon, turn it on, move, turn it off, draw weapon. Try to see if that really is going to affect your ability to fight. Seems like most of the arguments I have seen against the change, state they use surge to get within CQB. If that is the case, then the half second it takes to hit your function key, then hit weapon key, is really not going to make that much difference. However, I really think, most use it during a fight, knowing it will warp, thus enabling them to get an easier kill. If so, sorry, but your not going the be the CQB master anymore.

Anyway folks, at least this has generated alot of interesting debate, with very little flames. I think the argument is pretty silly though. If you need help getting to CQB with the enemy, use other MA troops to provide suppressing fire while you close in. The days of the lone wolf HA doing everything are dying. As always, these are my opinions and subject to just as much inaccuracy as everyone elses. But, they are just that, opinions, not facts.

[Lartnev]

I have already given you 3 of my own ideas which are lightyears better than the proposed solution. Bother reading the OF and you will find 10 more

There are 656 posts (at time of posting this) in that thread I don't have the time to read it all. Give us some highlights.

Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..

That's a bad idea anyway because it then means that if you happen to be carrying heavy assault you can't use surge as intended (since Spork said that surgile behaviour was a clever use of available game mechanics... or something), ie covering "long" distance and using it for a quick escape. It still doesn't stop the infiltrator/boomer scenario.

[Queensidecastle]

The "infiltrator boomer" scenario is not a problem to begin with. Complaining about an Infil pulling off some boomers in your spawnroom is akin to complaining they just snuck in and rehacked your base because no one was guarding the CC. Or it is like people that complain that vehicles can run them over. Its pure lazyness. Try flipping on darklight or have someone on patrol. As a former infiltrator I can assure you that getting away with boomering is a hell of a lot harder than you think it is

[Madcow]

And I wouldn't even have a problem with that if they only did it once, but I seen 3,4,5,6+ times in a row as they surge around in a circle so fast no one can catch them even with surge themselves, nor be able to put more than one bullet into them as they whizz by.

This is the funniest argument in the entire thread. So an infiltrator, limited to a total of 5 ACEs in his inventory (assuming he doesn't want to heal himself, or be able to hack his way into the base/spawn room/etc.) has made more than 6 boomer runs in your spawn room? If that's the case, you have a bunch of sorry soldiers. Let's operate under the assumption he had advanced hacking and an REK on him, limiting him to 4 ACEs. Let's say he was pretty good and got into the base without using any of those ACEs on the way (not easy). Let's say he was even better and somehow pulled off 4 boomer runs and was able to survive each time (remember, he can't heal himself). Now let's say he snuck back into your spawn room, hacked an equipment terminal without anybody noticing and got a new ACE loadout. So all the people spawning were too oblivious to see that a bug had revealed the 'invisible' guy who was hacking, and everybody else was too stupid to hear the sound or see the red light. And you're talking about this being a problem? The problem in this scenario isn't the infiltrator, and I'll give you one guess what the actual problem is.

Please play as an infiltrator and realize the limitations before posting about their problems.

[Krinsath]

Are you actually telling me that you dont know that the proposed fix isnt going to stop warping? Do you really not understand that? I mean this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. I keep debating this issue with people who dont even understand the core of the problem.

Is it going to stop warping? No, it isn't. It is going to stop the ABUSE of warping, which is more important. The easy-way, quick fix to warping? Remove Surge entirely. The Devs are striking the middle ground. Now when I see your warping tail, I can toss a jammer and POOF! You stop warping. In CQB currently, that tactic is suicide since you'll have your weapon out and I'll have just thrown a grenade that does no actual damage. Hmmm, someone with a weapon out vs. someone who doesn't have a gun out...wonder who's going to win that fight...hell, the weapon out could be a suppressor and the guy with it out will probably win. At least when you're forced to have your weapons holstered, we're starting from about the same point (a la old west gunfights). Let the better player win.

I dont even know how to respond to this one. If you cant keep infiltrators from getting into your spawn room, I dont know what to tell you. This argument is as asinine as the ones where people are out in the open and complain about being run over by a vehicle.

Mmm, no...it really isn't. If you're outside, vehicles are the kings of the battlefield. You're SUPPOSED to lose to them as that is their defined role, to kick your ass if you're dumb enough to be outside. Oddly enough, that's exactly what happens.

Infiltrators, once a base assault has begun in earnest, really have no place on the battlefield. Their role is recon and harassment. They find the weak points for heavier units to exploit and they pick of the stragglers and ones too stupid to use support of their own. Their place is NOT running randomly through a base using boomers to blow up people who can't see them and couldn't track them accurately if they COULD see them. The good bet is that 99% of the people in that spawn room could not catch up to a surging cloaker even if they wanted to. Add in that they can't just fire shotguns off because of the insane number of friendlies and you begin to have a problem. If a cloaker sneaks into a spawn room and finds a way to sabotage all the spawn tubes...good for him. Running in when he knows the likelihood of being hurt almost doesn't exist is abuse.

Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..etc but you dont even want to TRY those first. You would rather use the worst available idea for a fix that is a Huge nerf to a huge ammount of people and that Still will not stop the warping

Jumping - Again, ANY incline causes a problem, so this solution has already been identified as marginal. It will stop the obvious abuse, but doesn't fix it for the other 40% of warping abuse, whether intentional or not. Hence, dumb solution and why it's not being used.

Making it affect Heavy Assault only doesn't help. The abusers will simply resort to using Sweepers and other weapons. Doesn't really matter what you use if you can't be hit in return. Again, dumb solution and why it's not being used.

Increasing the stamina drain punishes those who use it as a travel implant, which is evidently (from Sporkfire's post) how Surge was originally envisioned. Many people don't use Surge in combat, but instead use it to get from base to base because they don't have the certs for/want to use a vehicle. Punishing people for using an implant as it's intended to appease those who want to use it to abuse a flaw in the netcode is also a dumb solution, hence why it isn't being used.

I have already given you 3 of my own ideas which are lightyears better than the proposed solution. Bother reading the OF and you will find 10 more

Since the 3 you proposed were "lightyears ahead" and yet still failed to address the fundamental issues that the Devs solution DO address (You can't go to a different weapon, it doesn't matter how badly you warp on a jump/incline because you'll be moving normally when you can infict damage, people can still use Surge for travel), you'll forgive me for being skeptical. As has been pointed out there are some 600+ posts on that thread, so give us some highlights. And please, remember there is more than one issue here and try to think of these flaws with your other ideas when examining them.

I respect your passion for something you feel should stay in, but given it's obvious abuse potential, it's something that needs to go. I'm sure the Devs examined all those possibilities and saw the exact same problems I see (and probably many more). Hence, they've gone with the one that is the best compromise of all the factors.

[Madcow]

Infiltrators, once a base assault has begun in earnest, really have no place on the battlefield. Their role is recon and harassment. They find the weak points for heavier units to exploit and they pick of the stragglers and ones too stupid to use support of their own. Their place is NOT running randomly through a base using boomers to blow up people who can't see them and couldn't track them accurately if they COULD see them. The good bet is that 99% of the people in that spawn room could not catch up to a surging cloaker even if they wanted to. Add in that they can't just fire shotguns off because of the insane number of friendlies and you begin to have a problem. If a cloaker sneaks into a spawn room and finds a way to sabotage all the spawn tubes...good for him. Running in when he knows the likelihood of being hurt almost doesn't exist is abuse.

Again, this coming from somebody who obviously has never actually done spawn room boomer runs in an infiltrator suit. Shocking.
The likelihood of being hurt almost doesn't exist. There is absolutely no point in the game where this is true for an infiltrator. We have no armor. We are killed by friendly fire as often as the enemy. Stray shots not aimed at us kill us all the time. I have been boomered in the spawn room, and I have more often than not killed the person who did it my very next spawn with nothing more than my supressor. The main issue are the idiots you are spawning with. I will always give the VWC as soon as I see the boomer run starting, but rarely will anybody stop long enough to assist with hunting the cloaker down. Most people are too busy getting their gear and running for the zerg to stop and down the invisible guy who is most likely on death's door anyway if he made it that far into the base.
Let me give you a few hints, since this scenario seems so troubling for you. If you get boomered once, at next spawn stay in the tube. Nobody does boomer runs at the tubes, it's suicidal. It's easy to track the path of the cloaker as he drops his next boomer, and fire your supressor at him the whole way. You'll hit him a few times, possibly kill him even if he has surge on. Now, were you paying attention to where he came from? Good, because on his next boomer run that's where he's going. 99% of infiltrators will run from one location to another and then back again. It's an easy pattern. Now you run to that location and wait for him to come surging towards you, while you mow him down. Wasn't that fun?
Now I'll give you even more hints. Even with surge on, the infiltrator is either surging into a corner of the spawn room or just outside one of the 3 doors (assuming it's a base spawn room we're talking about). They don't keep going, if you keep going you attract attention and somebody with DL is going to wipe you out.

Again, I'd ask that people who haven't actually played the infiltrator stop talking about the problems that infiltrators cause them. The fact that people see the infiltrator role a particular way does not mean that's how all infiltrators should play it. The fact that I can successfully use the suit in order to position myself properly for some good killing runs (and at least half of my kills are with the knife), and the fact that I can normally rack up more kills than I can as a standard grunt tells me all I need to know. It's all about finding a way to play which suits your own playstyle. My friend and I go out together as infiltrators and constantly get tells from enemies either complimenting us or telling us how much we piss them off. Either tell is gratefully accepted.

[Electrofreak]

During the AGN shoutcast Sporkfire mentioned that nerfing surge is the only way they can prevent the warping exploit in PlanetSide. It all comes down to the fact that when a character moves quickly, the client must predict their movement until it gets another update from the server. When it gets this update, it updates the character's location to a new position. This is what causes people to warp around. I'm sick of getting killed by people who run towards me, and then suddenly are behind me shooting me in the back. Without surge on, warping is less likely to happen because the client can predict the character's movement more accurately, and when it recieves an update, a large warp is unlikely to occur because the character wasn't moving fast enough to have traveled a large distance between updates.

However, I do think it would be fair to pull a pistol while surging. I figure that surge boosts bloodflow to your legs, making your arms relatively weak. Thus, you would be unable to use any weapon heavier than a pistol. Perhaps also increase the CoF of the pistol during surge, as your weakened arms would have more trouble maintaining a steady aim.

[Krinsath]

Again, this coming from somebody who obviously has never actually done spawn room boomer runs in an infiltrator suit. Shocking.

I do have an infiltrator character, thank you very much. Please consider that you are not the end all font of knowledge before posting.

The likelihood of being hurt almost doesn't exist. There is absolutely no point in the game where this is true for an infiltrator. We have no armor. We are killed by friendly fire as often as the enemy. Stray shots not aimed at us kill us all the time. I have been boomered in the spawn room, and I have more often than not killed the person who did it my very next spawn with nothing more than my supressor.

It's remarkable how hard it is to inflict damage on something that is 1) Invisible and 2) warping, especially with Client-Side hit detection when there is no feedback on hits for cloakers.

The main issue are the idiots you are spawning with. I will always give the VWC as soon as I see the boomer run starting, but rarely will anybody stop long enough to assist with hunting the cloaker down. Most people are too busy getting their gear and running for the zerg to stop and down the invisible guy who is most likely on death's door anyway if he made it that far into the base.

Wow, you must be a REALLY bad infiltrator if you can't get close to the spawn room without being hurt. I'm usually at a door lock before someone even suspects I'm there and I've actually watched non-DL equipped soldiers stand right next to me by a generator and not taken damage on the entire way in. Of course, I don't go using surge near the enemy which lights you up like a Roman Candle to any sniper on the walls. Pity the sniper rifle is useless unless you're at point-blank in CQB.

Let me give you a few hints, since this scenario seems so troubling for you. If you get boomered once, at next spawn stay in the tube. Nobody does boomer runs at the tubes, it's suicidal. It's easy to track the path of the cloaker as he drops his next boomer, and fire your supressor at him the whole way. You'll hit him a few times, possibly kill him even if he has surge on. Now, were you paying attention to where he came from? Good, because on his next boomer run that's where he's going. 99% of infiltrators will run from one location to another and then back again. It's an easy pattern. Now you run to that location and wait for him to come surging towards you, while you mow him down. Wasn't that fun?
Now I'll give you even more hints. Even with surge on, the infiltrator is either surging into a corner of the spawn room or just outside one of the 3 doors (assuming it's a base spawn room we're talking about). They don't keep going, if you keep going you attract attention and somebody with DL is going to wipe you out.

The above statements indicate that you have no idea about the tactic which people are complaining about. If an infiltrator sneaks into the spawn room, waits for an opportune moment and then plants a boomer and runs off, more power to him. The complaint is about the surgers who come screaming in off the stairways outside, plant a boomer and run out the other end and down another incline setting off the boomer. The only base where that isn't a viable tactic is the Bio Lab as the 2 approaches to the spawn room are flat. All the other base layouts have inclines directly adjacent to the spawn room, allowing easy warp entrance and exit. THAT is the tactic being complained about.

Again, I'd ask that people who haven't actually played the infiltrator stop talking about the problems that infiltrators cause them. The fact that people see the infiltrator role a particular way does not mean that's how all infiltrators should play it. The fact that I can successfully use the suit in order to position myself properly for some good killing runs (and at least half of my kills are with the knife), and the fact that I can normally rack up more kills than I can as a standard grunt tells me all I need to know. It's all about finding a way to play which suits your own playstyle. My friend and I go out together as infiltrators and constantly get tells from enemies either complimenting us or telling us how much we piss them off. Either tell is gratefully accepted.

The infiltrator role is not a combat role, hence the term "Infiltrator". It is probably the most specialized support class there is. It's far from a useless playstyle, and I have great fun sneaking up on snipers and other people who aren't paying attention and knifing/boomering them to bits. I also get just as frustrated when my own teammates shoot me/run me over/fire blast weapons at the guy I'm next to. That's SOE's fault for not making friendly names show up faster than enemy names. I rack up more kills as a sniper, but that's because it fits my general playstyle. I can still rack up 80 kills a night as an infiltrator, but I do it by just that, infiltrating...not by abusing a flaw in the netcode to the fullest possible advantage.

Arguments that you make by forming incorrect assumptions about other players in turn reflect poorly on any information you present, even if it is accurate. Please limit your commentary to facts that you know rather than facts you think you know.

[Marsman]

This is the funniest argument in the entire thread.Ok perhaps I'm exagerating with 6+ rounds but I have seen several passes at least and no one made a scratch on them because they warped so badly by the time you got a glimpse of where they were, they were no longer there and you just end up scarring the walls, ceiling, and floors. Opening fire in a crowded spawn room isn't exactly the smartest move either. The point is that this affects all armors and no one likes being attacked with no way to fight back because they can't see the attacker for more than 1/10 of a sec before they warp somewhere else.

[Queensidecastle]

The infiltrator role is not a combat role, hence the term "Infiltrator". It is probably the most specialized support class there is.
Thats your opinion. Infiltrators have the tools to be quite effective at killing and there isnt any reason for that to change. The recent Rexo buff made this a lot more difficult anyways. Lets not try to roll in an Infiltrator nerf because of unrelated Surgile warp nerfing. I cant speak for Madcow but it seemed clear to him and me as well that people were posting about Infiltrators and didnt have a clue what they were talking about

It seems that the advocates of the massive game nerf just want to continue to ignor the fact that this fix will not stop warping. Here are some snippets from others so I dont have type this all again

Snippet #1 - There's been no official statement about fixing the warp issue. Only that there will be a change to surge so that a player's weapon/tool will be holstered when surge is activated and cannot be used until surge is deactivated manually (ie. surge nerf) So you'll still have guys running up the stairs and continuing to keep running right into the ceiling and magically appearing behind you. It'll just take him longer to pull out his gun and shoot you in the back now.

Snippet #2 - The only positive impact on gameplay, is that it will reduce the occurances of people exploiting surge to get their kills (a good thing); however, it will not completely eliminate it. In fact, warping itself with surge will increase because you surge faster without a weapon drawn, and faster movement speed equates to greater chances to warp. Those who are currently exploiting surge now will warp worse than ever and still use it to kill people. So we are left with a "solution" that may fix one bad thing, albeit not completely, but what are the negative impacts to gameplay?

So since we are down to treating the symptoms of the problem and not fixing to begin with how can someone advocate for the fix that does the most damage to the game as opposed to the least? With the proposed fix, your still going to have warpers and they will just create a new macro that allows them to still kill you from behind like always. Meanwhile the rest of us are nerfed and a whole style of infantry combat was ruined. At least with an idea like no jumping, your only rarely going to have a warp and have the benefit of not ruining the game. Yeah, I would much rather limit the change to an occasional warp (much like with vehicles) than ruin a whole style of gameplay

[Madcow]

I do have an infiltrator character, thank you very much. Please consider that you are not the end all font of knowledge before posting.

I'm sorry, but this means little to nothing. Everybody probably has a character with the suit. Does that mean you have combat engineering? Does that mean you actually don the suit for any length of time? Does that mean you've ever done a boomer run through a spawn room? You've answered nothing.

It's remarkable how hard it is to inflict damage on something that is 1) Invisible and 2) warping, especially with Client-Side hit detection when there is no feedback on hits for cloakers.

Feedback? You only have to land a paltry few shots, do you really need feedback to tell you that you've done it? It's really not that hard, even in a crowded spawn room you can let loose with a supressor and fear nothing more than a dozen or so grief points. Whoop-de-doo.

Wow, you must be a REALLY bad infiltrator if you can't get close to the spawn room without being hurt. I'm usually at a door lock before someone even suspects I'm there and I've actually watched non-DL equipped soldiers stand right next to me by a generator and not taken damage on the entire way in. Of course, I don't go using surge near the enemy which lights you up like a Roman Candle to any sniper on the walls. Pity the sniper rifle is useless unless you're at point-blank in CQB.

Tell me that story again about not talking about things you don't have knowledge about. See, hypocrisy is fun! It's easy to get to a spawn room when nobody would expect you there (these seem to be the times you are referring to). Try getting to a spawn room in the middle of an all-out base assault. It takes skill, and tons of luck. Stray shots will hit you, period. Then again, that's the only time boomer runs in the spawn room are worthwhile and will help your empire to take the base. Slow the spawners long enough to worry about you, that gets your infantry that much closer to the spawn room with a little less resistance. See, that's what a skilled infiltrator can do for you.

By the way, I haven't used Surge for quite a while. I think Surge and Darklight are the crutch implants that remove too much of the fun from the game. But thanks for playing!

The above statements indicate that you have no idea about the tactic which people are complaining about. If an infiltrator sneaks into the spawn room, waits for an opportune moment and then plants a boomer and runs off, more power to him. The complaint is about the surgers who come screaming in off the stairways outside, plant a boomer and run out the other end and down another incline setting off the boomer. The only base where that isn't a viable tactic is the Bio Lab as the 2 approaches to the spawn room are flat. All the other base layouts have inclines directly adjacent to the spawn room, allowing easy warp entrance and exit. THAT is the tactic being complained about.

Try reading my post again. I'll wait here. Okay, you back? Great. I stated that on surge (or even not surge) boomer runs the infiltrator will most likely go from point A to point B, and on his next run will go back from point B to point A. Few infiltrators will find a point C. If you see an infiltrator enter the spawn room from the door on the left, and see him run out the door on the right, then you exit the spawn room through the left door and wait. He will run right at you on his way out of the room, while you mow him down. You don't even need to get real equipment for this to work. Fun, eh? Which one of us didn't get what people were complaining about?

The infiltrator role is not a combat role, hence the term "Infiltrator". It is probably the most specialized support class there is. It's far from a useless playstyle, and I have great fun sneaking up on snipers and other people who aren't paying attention and knifing/boomering them to bits. I also get just as frustrated when my own teammates shoot me/run me over/fire blast weapons at the guy I'm next to. That's SOE's fault for not making friendly names show up faster than enemy names. I rack up more kills as a sniper, but that's because it fits my general playstyle. I can still rack up 80 kills a night as an infiltrator, but I do it by just that, infiltrating...not by abusing a flaw in the netcode to the fullest possible advantage.

I'm glad you enjoy playing the infiltrator that way. Some of us have different ideas, and it has nothing to do with exploiting bugs and everything to do with having their own playstyle niche. Despite all of the glaring bugs in the game for infil I'd say I'm a better infiltrator/killer than many people are grunts. So I should stop killing lots of people because that's not how you see the infiltrator role? Brace yourself for disappointment, it won't be happening.

Arguments that you make by forming incorrect assumptions about other players in turn reflect poorly on any information you present, even if it is accurate. Please limit your commentary to facts that you know rather than facts you think you know.

Pot, kettle, blahblahblah.

[Lartnev]

Right, I think we need to get back to step one here.

Problem: Warping due to the use of the surge implant whilst having the ability to fight. This means that accidently or by deliberate exploit players are able to fight without receiving fire themselves.

Fix: Remove the ability for people to fight whilst usiing surge by preventing people from having a weapon out.

At the moment it seems people are slapping each other about because infiltrators can do that and infiltrators should do this and to be quite honest it's getting quite pathetic.

If the devs wanted to be lazy they would have just removed surge. They're trying a compromise. Allow people to use surge for crossing distance quickly, but removing the potential for exploit. This won't remove warping entirely, but it will mean that people can't fire during that warp, if they begin firing after the warp at least then they can be hit back, which is the issue at hand. In the end, it doesn't matter if an infiltrator or a rexo plants a boomer and legs it before the anyone knows whats happened due to warping, the problem is that it happens, and the devs are trying to remove the exploit the best they can. Or at least until they can implement a better solution.

[Queensidecastle]

Fix: Remove the ability for people to fight whilst usiing surge by preventing people from having a weapon out
Thats not a fix. People will still warp around and then kill you from behind like always, just now the game recieved a massive nerf to infantry combat. The exploiters just need a new macro which will take about, oh, 15 min after the patch.

Fix: Remove the ability for people to jump while using surge thus practically eleminating warping.

The problem here is that people are picking #1 over #2 and are doing so because they just dont get it.

[Lartnev]

It is a fix to the problem specified, that people can fight whilst warping, if they can't have their weapon out while surging, they can't fight while warping, jumping or not. Perhaps they'll disable jumping later down the line if they can and if you're right we'll all be happy.

Either way, we still have a way until 2.6. Either solution does me fine, JUST REMOVE THE WARP KILLERS! :|

[Krinsath]

I'm sorry, but this means little to nothing. Everybody probably has a character with the suit. Does that mean you have combat engineering? Does that mean you actually don the suit for any length of time? Does that mean you've ever done a boomer run through a spawn room? You've answered nothing.

Sheesh...sad to see that basic inference skills are not taught in schools these days. Read my post, see where it mentions boomers? Be a really neat trick to use boomers WITHOUT combat engineering, wouldn't you say? This of course would presume that you put THOUGHT into the post I made before responding.

Feedback? You only have to land a paltry few shots, do you really need feedback to tell you that you've done it? It's really not that hard, even in a crowded spawn room you can let loose with a supressor and fear nothing more than a dozen or so grief points. Whoop-de-doo.

So the post after you point out how stupid the people in the spawn room are, you suggest that hitting them even with a suppressor is a good idea? Welcome to the world of TK.

It's easy to get to a spawn room when nobody would expect you there (these seem to be the times you are referring to). Try getting to a spawn room in the middle of an all-out base assault. It takes skill, and tons of luck. Stray shots will hit you, period. Then again, that's the only time boomer runs in the spawn room are worthwhile and will help your empire to take the base. Slow the spawners long enough to worry about you, that gets your infantry that much closer to the spawn room with a little less resistance. See, that's what a skilled infiltrator can do for you.

If you'd stop making the same mistakes over and over again, maybe it wouldn't be as funny. If someone is actively looking for me, chances are it's a whole degree worse than just walking around in a full on base assault (which this was in the middle of, by the way, amazing how crouch walking in hallways that are NOT the main ones keeps you out of the line of fire). Again, that presumes that you're thinking about things before you respond.

I agree that it is a valuable thing for the main infantry to be able to get into the spawn room easier. My problem is that there's an exploit being abused to do it. If the infiltrator gets there through his own skill and gets things done that way, more power to him. Using a flaw in the netcode to produce it is *not* a valid tactic.

point A to point B, and on his next run will go back from point B to point A.

Not usually, they come in through the "rec room" run out of the left door. Come back the right, head out the back. Run straight left to right. Guess the infiltrators I face are a bit more intelligent than the ones you see.

I'm glad you enjoy playing the infiltrator that way. Some of us have different ideas, and it has nothing to do with exploiting bugs and everything to do with having their own playstyle niche. Despite all of the glaring bugs in the game for infil I'd say I'm a better infiltrator/killer than many people are grunts. So I should stop killing lots of people because that's not how you see the infiltrator role? Brace yourself for disappointment, it won't be happening.

You can kill all the people you jolly well please. Hell, you can even kill them exclusively with boomers and spitfires and knives for all I care. Just don't exploit bugs to do it. I'd say the same thing about someone who used a flaw in the textures or drivers to make hunting infiltrators easier. Using an exploit to get a kill or make a base hack easier or whatever the hell you're using it for is not a valid tactic. It's actually not terribly far removed from cheating, except I can't blame individuals for the slipshod response time from the Dev team.

Right, I think we need to get back to step one here.

Yes, we did get a bit sidetracked by those defending the playstyles that really on abusing an exploit (and yes, if the Devs are saying it needs to be changed, that would equate to an exploit...whether it should be there or not is no longer a matter of debate and yes, I have argued in defense of "exploit" fixes that have nerfed weapons that were a part of my playstyle, even though I didn't use the exploit for them).

the devs are trying to remove the exploit the best they can. Or at least until they can implement a better solution.

No truer words have been said in this thread...which is what those of us who understand what a problem Surge has become have been saying since the fix was announced.

[Lartnev]

Post by Sporkfire on the Official Forums

Admittedly, the Surge warping was the issue that caused us to look into Surge overall. Yes, we still have to resolve the core issue that caused the effect and that resolution is under development. To some extent, warping of some sort will always be a problem given the nature of the Internet and the predictive needs of MMO netcode. PlanetSide is not the only game to face this limitation. It may, however, be more obvious in PlanetSide, due to its unique gameplay and combat system among MMOG's.

But it also called up a design issue: given a perfect network with no warping, is it desired for functionality for this game to allow highly potent weapons to be used at super speeds? We don't feel it is, and there are plenty of gamers in PlanetSide who agree with that sentiment.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum8/HTML/038012-2.html

[Krinsath]

Hey! I was just about to do that! :lol:

Ah well....yeah, what the Spork said...although I feel odd taking orders from a hybrid eating utensil...

[Madcow]

Sheesh...sad to see that basic inference skills are not taught in schools these days. Read my post, see where it mentions boomers? Be a really neat trick to use boomers WITHOUT combat engineering, wouldn't you say? This of course would presume that you put THOUGHT into the post I made before responding.

Ah, you're right. You answered one question. Kudos! I do enjoy your flame attempt, it's cute in the same way that declawed kittens attacking a scratching post is.

So the post after you point out how stupid the people in the spawn room are, you suggest that hitting them even with a suppressor is a good idea? Welcome to the world of TK.

Wow, you're a really bad shot. TKing with a supressor is pretty stinking hard to do, especially while tracking a moving infiltrator. Or maybe your teammates just happen to be running parallel to the infiltrator but standing just in front of them the whole time? Bad luck, that.

So you get a dozen or so grief points, most likely shooting the nimrod about to get blown to smithereens. Hopefully you'll be able to sleep at night knowing how irresponsible you were.

If you'd stop making the same mistakes over and over again, maybe it wouldn't be as funny. If someone is actively looking for me, chances are it's a whole degree worse than just walking around in a full on base assault (which this was in the middle of, by the way, amazing how crouch walking in hallways that are NOT the main ones keeps you out of the line of fire). Again, that presumes that you're thinking about things before you respond.

Oooooh, a keen wit on this one! He's able to recycle his recycled barbs. Yow.

If you are able to crouch walk hallways all the way to the spawn room, and not come across enemy fire, it's not an all-out base assault. You can crouch walk all the distance in the world and it won't matter if you get caught in the wrong hallway. Let's just say I don't exactly believe your story and we'll leave it at that, mmmkay? Either that or this was a one-off situation, which certainly happens but just isn't the norm. See, that's the danger in people forming opinions after very little playtime.

I agree that it is a valuable thing for the main infantry to be able to get into the spawn room easier. My problem is that there's an exploit being abused to do it. If the infiltrator gets there through his own skill and gets things done that way, more power to him. Using a flaw in the netcode to produce it is *not* a valid tactic.

Even when I was on a crap system the only time I saw an infiltrator warp was during jumps. This is also the only time I've seen a surgile warp (well, that and sometimes stairs). Inclines? Nope. Regular flat ground? Nope. I guess I'm just the luckiest sob ever. You also conveniently forget the part where I say I don't use surge, but since that totally screws up your argument I don't really blame you.

Not usually, they come in through the "rec room" run out of the left door. Come back the right, head out the back. Run straight left to right. Guess the infiltrators I face are a bit more intelligent than the ones you see.

Wow, I guess so. Amazing that you can actually follow their entire pattern and yet you're still too impotent to take them out. Well, that or maybe it just made your story sound better.

You can kill all the people you jolly well please. Hell, you can even kill them exclusively with boomers and spitfires and knives for all I care. Just don't exploit bugs to do it. I'd say the same thing about someone who used a flaw in the textures or drivers to make hunting infiltrators easier. Using an exploit to get a kill or make a base hack easier or whatever the hell you're using it for is not a valid tactic. It's actually not terribly far removed from cheating, except I can't blame individuals for the slipshod response time from the Dev team.

There was this one time I sat on a riverbank and talked to a rock. For hours, I sat there and poured out my hopes and dreams to this rock (I named him Bill. Don't ask). At the end of the day I felt like that rock truly understood me. Then again, he was a pretty good listener.

[KIAsan]

Glad to see Spork further refining the change. I have always felt that surge was broken, in that it allowed one HA (JH) to remove any advantage the other HA's possesed. The JH is the most powerful weapon in CQB. MCGs & Lashers are given a standoff ability to counter this. The use of surge effectively nullified that counter, thus allowing the JH to be the most powerful in all circumstances. That is out of balance, and judging Sporks comments, another reason for the change.

The effect of the change on the JH is minimal if used as designed. Your there to kill in close quarters. Other weapons are designed to suppress/defend against enemies at range. The JH just needs to wait until the MCG/Lasher is within his range to win. The MCG/Lasher needs to win at range or use other weapons to suppress/defend before they get to CQB. However, the JH user still retains a potent game feature that gives him the upper hand, 3rd person view. With it, he can safely wait around a corner for a MCG/Lasher to come into range, then kill them by surprise. As to boomer runs, those will still be effecitve without surge.

[Queensidecastle]

Rexo is hardly "super speed" and Infiltrators having "potent weapons"? rofl Of course this comes from the makers of such winners as Lasher 2.0 and Lasher 3.0 so oh well

I have agreed since the beginning that Agile/Standard and surge was a problem but a wholesale nerf to the Surge implant is bullshit and trying to spin it any other way is a mistake. Attempting to pretend at this juncture that Surge was never meant to be used for offense is just comical. Just be honest and say you cant fix the code or that you want to change the game after its been out a year and dont really give a shit what anyone thinks, but at least dont insult our intelligence in the process heh

I am sure you have all read this quote from Smokejumper by now: BTW...to be official...we don't consider the "Surge+HA+Agile" to be an "exploit". We consider it to be clever use of existing game rules

Sure they can change thier minds I suppose, but dont even try to suggest that Surge was never meant for offense or that using surge on offense is an exploit. Warping on purpose is the exploit and you cant do it at will w/out jumping

[Lartnev]

Get over it. For goodness sake. The devs aren't trying to screw you over personally, they believe this is a required change and are perfectly within their rights to make that change.

Oh, I believe the boomer is a very potent weapon in the right hands, so is the AMP if you catch someone off guard. Oh, and if they drop a HE mine behind a MAX, that's definatly a potent weapon.

[Krinsath]

Ah, you're right. You answered one question. Kudos! I do enjoy your flame attempt, it's cute in the same way that declawed kittens attacking a scratching post is.

I was not attempting to flame you, I was drawing attention to you posing a question with an obvious answer after you berate me for not reading a post. Funny thing about people who call others hypocrites, they tend to be one as well (and yes, that is said tongue in cheek :p)

If you are able to crouch walk hallways all the way to the spawn room, and not come across enemy fire, it's not an all-out base assault. You can crouch walk all the distance in the world and it won't matter if you get caught in the wrong hallway. Let's just say I don't exactly believe your story and we'll leave it at that, mmmkay? Either that or this was a one-off situation, which certainly happens but just isn't the norm. See, that's the danger in people forming opinions after very little playtime.

Do my infils get as much play as my other characters? No, but then again I have no VS cloakers, so I'm also eagerly waiting for 2.6 when they damned overdue infil buffs go in. Appears the Devs are at the "crap we should have done back in November" list.

Even when I was on a crap system the only time I saw an infiltrator warp was during jumps. This is also the only time I've seen a surgile warp (well, that and sometimes stairs). Inclines? Nope. Regular flat ground? Nope. I guess I'm just the luckiest sob ever. You also conveniently forget the part where I say I don't use surge, but since that totally screws up your argument I don't really blame you.

If you sneak into a spawn room...or even run into one on the straight and narrow, more power to you. As I've said NUMEROUS times now, my issue is not with people like you who use skill (and a bit of luck, as you'll admit) to get in a position to wreak havoc. That's what the infiltrator is FOR...harassment. The problem is that surge allows people to warp and become for all intents and purposes, invulnerable. THOSE are the ones I have problems with, just like I have problems with EVERYONE who abuses exploits.

The warping is VERY noticeable on inclines, especially in large battles (where boomer runs on the spawn room happen to be an effective tactic). My system exceeds the "recommended" specs by a decent margin. The Devs have more or less admitted that it is a rather large problem, and according to Spork, the current form of Surge no longer fits in with what they want PS to do. Any further discussion is really moot if they've gone so far as to get it to QA.

And, as a side note, if you don't use surge, why the hell are you bitching in this thread? The changes discussed here affect you not at all then.


Wow, I guess so. Amazing that you can actually follow their entire pattern and yet you're still too impotent to take them out. Well, that or maybe it just made your story sound better.

Yes, as you point out, it's amazing what you can see from the spawn tubes. And yes, I spammed the "Cloaked Enemy Detected" and you're right, the people in a spawn room are idiots. Me? I was waiting for my Darklight to kick in so I could at least get a decent shot in on him. I see those outlines quite well, to the point that Darklight is really only needed if he's stationary (fact that he was NC helped too, those faceplates stick out). Seeing a blur of an outline really isn't enough to go on when you have a spawn room packed full of friendlies.

Of course, there are probably cloakers that have followed me for hours and laughed their asses off that I never noticed them, so the eyesight thing is relative I suppose.

There was this one time I sat on a riverbank and talked to a rock. For hours, I sat there and poured out my hopes and dreams to this rock (I named him Bill. Don't ask). At the end of the day I felt like that rock truly understood me. Then again, he was a pretty good listener.

Oooooooooooook...was this rock shaped like a beamer, by any chance?

[Madcow]

Krinsath is officially on my good people list. This has been fun.

Although I still might knife him.

[oddfish]

The only thing i'm going to say is this. Removing the surge+gun capability is a very sensible move. It will work.

Those who say that warping is not a problem, or that if one cannot hit some guy in surge who's zapping about the screen disappearing and reappearing like Harry frickin' Houdini is a lousy FPS player and just sucks and needs to quit being such a n00b, need to realize a few things.

The fact is, that you can't tell me that exploiting an obvious flaw with the game is okay and should be recognized as an okay way to play. Now, Oxo is saying that there are other ways to go about fixing the problem, but what he's not realizing is that the devs have probably looked at many different ways to fix the problem and have decided that this is the most efficient and most applicable one. It's broad and effects all of the PS players.

The argument that surging and gunning is part of the game and shouldn't be nerfed just because a few people are bitching is not a valid one to the slightest degree. Surgiles cause warping, warping is a glitch, not a tactic. No one on any battlefield in PS should have to work around a glitch. If warping did not happen, i would see no need to fix the surgile problem, but it does. TR Maxes who have to deal with surgiles zipping up and devastatoring them into oblivion would have nothing to bitch about if they could see the surgiles the whole time they made their skittering little way up to their suits. But when the guys 50 meters away, then 7 and you didn't see him take a single step then there's a problem.

Tactics in a game should be based on the options the game has provided, not a lack of server strength has provided. Warping is not a tactic, and since surgiles running around with guns blazing is causing the warping then it is clear that surge gunning is not a viable tactic. There might as well be a fukking wall hack in this game. Anyways, I know Oxo or some Surgeopath will flame the hell out of me for this, or try to rebut with some type of pro-surgile argument but I'm to the point where I'm done listening. The fact that this thread is this long to begin with is ridiculous.

There was a problem, the devs fixed it the best they could. If you don't like it, you can take your 13 a month and cram it up your ass, cuz your complaints are unfounded and unwelcome if all they are are the same "waaaaaaaaa, i want to be able to QUAKE THREE everyone and i CAN'T ANYMORE," bullshit i've been reading so far. I've been playing for a while now and I've come across numerous players who use this surgile tactic. It reminded me of the ridiculous zapping around of Quake 3 deathmatches of old and it was driving me insane. PlanetSide is NOT Quake 3 and should't resemble it in any way. To those who think that applying UT and Quake tactics to a game like this, all I have to say is: for shame.. :nono:

[sPooT]

Best change EVAR :D

I think the "warping" is just a side effect of Planetside's low bandwidth netcode, there just aren't enough packets to show proper smooth movement at such high playerspeeds. You just don't notice it normally because vehicle (with even higher speeds) movement is far more predictable than people jumping around on towerstairs.

At least, that's what I've always thought ;) Anyways, I don't think surge was ever meant to be truly offensive, and they're finally fixing it.

[Shelak]

My issue with cloakers doing boomer runs at the spawn room is the small step on the doors that makes them warp when they go by one.

They warp when they get in and they warp when they get out. :(

[Lartnev]

I think the "warping" is just a side effect of Planetside's low bandwidth netcode, there just aren't enough packets to show proper smooth movement at such high playerspeeds. You just don't notice it normally because vehicle (with even higher speeds) movement is far more predictable than people jumping around on towerstairs.

Close enough :)

[Queensidecastle]

Now, Oxo is saying that there are other ways to go about fixing the problem, but what he's not realizing is that the devs have probably looked at many different ways to fix the problem and have decided that this is the most efficient and most applicable one. It's broad and effects all of the PS players.
See, I just dont believe that at all. I have a BR 14 Vanu on the test server and have been active before every patch for months. These are the same people that released Lasher 2.0, Lasher 3.0 and the Interlink facility benifits that instantly destroyed cloaking. Each one of these I played on the test server going "WTF No way this is going to make it off Test" and in each case it actually did go live. Lasher 2.0 for example was just absurd against MAXs not counting its other problems. I could see that within 30 min of play and that was on the public test server. Not only did this make it out of Development, it made it to the public test. Not only did it make it to Test, it actually went live. In each of these cases we have had to live with the results for months.

I realize the Devs are human and make mistakes. That is why I am being so vocal about this because it is just going to be another mistake.

[Krinsath]

See, I just dont believe that at all. I have a BR 14 Vanu on the test server and have been active before every patch for months. These are the same people that released Lasher 2.0, Lasher 3.0 and the Interlink facility benifits that instantly destroyed cloaking. Each one of these I played on the test server going "WTF No way this is going to make it off Test" and in each case it actually did go live. Lasher 2.0 for example was just absurd against MAXs not counting its other problems. I could see that within 30 min of play and that was on the public test server. Not only did this make it out of Development, it made it to the public test. Not only did it make it to Test, it actually went live. In each of these cases we have had to live with the results for months.

I realize the Devs are human and make mistakes. That is why I am being so vocal about this because it is just going to be another mistake.

Is it the optimal solution? No...the optimal solution would be to fix the warping issues so that there is some merit to the "you just need to change your tactics" argument that Surgiles love (yes, that does imply that this argument currently has no merit due to bugs).

However, the netcode in regards to surge and jumping/inclines is broken. There is no arguing that point as there have been numerous cases of it happening, including videos being made. Even you concede that it is possible to induce warping, and the majority of people here know it is possible to do it accidentally when elevation changes are involved, something that gets worse as the size of battles increase.

Their options are do nothing, and leave a plainly visible black eye on PS to scare away the few new players that come to this game or they can try and put in a fix that impacts people as little as possible.

Fact is that the solution they are putting in is as gentle as it can be to have the intended affect. Every other suggestion I've seen has more negative impacts on those who want to use it as the Devs evidently feel it should be used and still does not remedy the abuse of the bug. A warper now has to turn surge off before he can draw a weapon, and I have a feeling that the "auto-surge off" wasn't put in so that in the time between turning surge off and drawing a weapon, the game will have caught up enough to put the character where he belongs. Can warping still be abused to get an upper-hand? Yes...but not nearly on the scale that it can be currently.

Again, if the Devs were looking for the quick fix, they'd simply say "Surge is broken...we'll put it back in when it's fixed" and then just take it out entirely. The fact that they have picked one that nerfs mainly the people who's strategy in game abused it in the first place says that they have indeed put thought into it. Until it's on the Test Server though, we won't know what it's real impact will be.

That's the other difference, on all the other ones you started complaining about where the Devs screwed up, you started complaining when it made it to the Test Server...you started the moment this was announced, so the Devs must be doing the right thing. ;)

[Lartnev]

It's not a case of the netcode being broken as such, it's just it's not really good at predicting surge users, and you can't really blame anyone for that.

[Krinsath]

I used the term broken to mean "not doing what it's supposed to". :)

The system they use is the lesser of two evils and for a pilot concept on getting 200+ people in one area fighting, it does a great job. However, Surge + Z-axis changes + heavy combat was probably a bridge too far for this engine, and hence something needs to give.

Wasn't trying to say that the Devs screwed something up, just that the current technology isn't there to do everything the "ideal" way.

[Dharkbayne]

Surge should be for travel, fleeing, flanking, tactical insertion, not rushing up and opening fire while running at 40 MPH

[Veteran]

If I back Dhark up on another point I'm sure to come off as a f4g, but I ain't.

The truth, though, is that Surge should be used for exactly what Dhark said.

It was never meant to be a lag machine that let gimps buff their kill-count with little to no options for retaliation.

[Dharkbayne]

It's much more lethal when used tactically, it should be used to get INTO POSITION for fighting, not the actual combat, 1 person using surge to get around the enemy line and attack from behind is more deadly than 5 rushing up infront of them.

[oddfish]

Damn straight, Dhark.. I couldn't agree more. :cheers:

[Dharkbayne]

Of course, I'm always right. :lol: :p

[sPooT]

It's not a case of the netcode being broken as such, it's just it's not really good at predicting surge users, and you can't really blame anyone for that.
Indeed, it's not broken, it's just a matter of priority. I'm pretty sure if they just up the bandwith A LOT the warping would be a thing of the past. On the other hand they have a perfectly good reason to up the monthly fee too then :( I'd rather take the surge nerf thank you.

[Lartnev]

It'd also kill the connections of anyone short of 512 cable/ADSL :D