Post BR20 Abilities - Flame Free Version

[Krinsath]

I was thinking about making this thread, and was going to tack it onto the one already going but then noticed it had degenerated into a flame war, so I'm going to start fresh and hope for the best. :groovy:

First off, I want to make it absolutely clear that I do *not* like the things that I have heard from the Devs regarding post-BR20 abilities. What I've heard about what they are proposing (via Ask the Devs recordings) are fundamental changes to the classes, for example countermeasures and a true flight model for pilots as well as a second holster for BR20 infiltrators. I feel that is a poor idea, and that the post-BR20 abilities should be access to minor tweaks that give you an edge, but nothing overpowering on their own.

That being said, my ideas for post-BR20 abilities (and I'm not promising that any of these are winners...some I look at and go..."meh"):

Please bear in mind that I'm thinking of this as a "you can get ONE ability every time you get XP equivalent to the XP from BR19-20 modified on a similar scale"...some of these abilities may be combined into a single one if they're not that great on their own.

Infantry:

-Option for larger capacity ammo boxes (lighter materials, more powerful charges), somewhere between 150%-200% of current sizes (so a BR20 MCGer could carry 1 reload per box, or at least 3 reloads in 2).

-Boost armor absorbtion by 1 per hit (stronger components).

-Slight CoF reduction on weapons

-Increase in MAX turning radius (also entails a slight inventory cut as the lighter suit is what moves faster, but most MAXes carry plenty of ammo anyway since there's no need for anything else)

Infiltrators:

-As a general change, all (even the BR1) infiltrators get 2 holsters. However, if you are below BR20, that 2nd holster is a REK, ALL the time. After BR20, you can get the ability to make that 2nd holster whatever you want it to be (Pistol, ACE, etc).

-The ability to throw the pistols at the enemy so that Beamer can actually inflict damage ;) (that's a joke for those who haven't had their coffee yet)

-Implant feedback pistol. New weapon that reacts to the activation of an implant by inflicting 2 damage when activated and 2 damage per second used afterwards, except darklight which is doubled (electrical feedback, darklight being severe as the nerves in the eyes go directly to the brain, resulting in greater damage). Effects last for 30 seconds. If no implants are active, no damage is done. Hitting someone who already has the feedback effect has no effect.

Vehicles (Ground):

-Boost vehicle top speed by 10kph

-Improved resistance to mines (mines would do about 75% of the damage they currently do)

-Ejection mechanism that launches you from a badly damaged vehicle (must have 33% or less of armor remaining to use), even if in motion. Throws you clear of a blast (assuming a clear path ahead), but not high enough to clear a base wall.

-Gunners get a directional indicator of where enemy vehicles are (I'm thinking of brackets and arrows on the side of the screen) within LOS. Always bugged me that vehicles had no targeting computers on them, but an elite BR20 tank driver would have an upgraded vehicle.

Pilots:

(General Changes for all pilots would be Countermeasures, true flight model option)

-Reaver missiles will lock on to ground targets.

-Mosquitos equipped with air-to-air lock on missiles (not overpowering as *all* pilot have countermeasures).

-The infamous, counter-countermeasures

-Special bomb for Liberators, was thinking along the lines of scatterable mines or something.

Engineers:

-Faster repair rate

-Deployables more immune to EMP strikes and Jammers (are unaffected 25% of the time)

-Interference distance on deployables reduced.

Medics:

-Revive takes 15 instead of 25 med units. EDITED (Thanks to SilverLord's accurate numbers)

-Faster Revive rate

For BR20s with Eng AND Medic:

-Combo-tool. Has 4 Fire modes similar to an ACE, combines the BANK and the Medical Applicatior into a pistol sized unit. Still needs nano-juice and med-juice separately for reloads (dual ammo like the Punisher). Advanced, high tech stuff issued only to proven soldiers.

I think that provides enough options to keep people happy. If you feel I've neglicted your group, please let me know.

[SilverLord]

Medics:

-Revive takes 5 instead of 10 med units.

-Faster Revive rateCurrently it takes 25 units to revive a friendly Krin.

This should be reduced to about 15 or so if this would go in.

I also would like to see some other use for Adv. Med come in because nobody has this cert and if you do, like me, you just don't get the use out of that I would like.

[Krinsath]

Ah, I dropped advanced medic long ago because it wasn't worthwhile (it is my next cert to pick up again though). So yes, your corrected numbers would be much better.

I too would like to see some expansion on the medic role, but other than heals and revives, what can they do?

[SilverLord]

There could always be stim packs for stamina.

There could always be a deployable you can put up that allows a friendly to heal in the field.

Thats all I have thought up as of now though.

[Krinsath]

I like the deployable idea...but that might be a bit much. Stimpacks would be of minor value.

There are just some fundamental fixes that need to go in for the medic, not post-BR20.

Things like XP rewards for high-risk revives on the battlefield. And players not turning into backpacks until they've actually respawned.

How about an ability that instead of healing 1 person, the med app heals everyone in 2m (the drain on med units would remain the same...same restrictions on not moving)? Not quite a deployable, but the same idea.

[SilverLord]

What if the corpse of a dead infantrymen just stays on the battlefield until the guy pops up into a respawn tube allowing him to click out and just wait for him to be revived. Allowing a medic to revive him even though he still is repawning.

Of course with this change, revive times must be cut.

[Krinsath]

That's what I was referring to with the not turning into backpacks until they've actually respawned. :) That way, the med has a chance to revive someone (unless you're at a base, where the spawn timers are usually faster anyway).

OO! Post BR20 medics revive you with a bit of stamina! There we go. :) lol

[SilverLord]

Yea, those to enhancements would make Medic better, alot better.

[Happy lil Elf]

I think it'd be nice to allow high level advanced medics to carry a small item that acts like the revives in RtCW in that it's nearly instantaneous. Perhaps 1 square wide 2 high obviously equippable in pistol slot. Possibly allow advanced medics with engineering to revive infantry at 50% armor and MAXs at significantly less, maybe 1/8 or something.

[Krinsath]

That revive with a little armor is also a good idea HLE.

Don't know about the insta-revive, as that could lead to some problems, but as an ability for those who bothered to devote at least 8 certs to support, I think the combo revive is quite good.

[SilverLord]

Insta-revives would be bad for gameplay and balance issues. I like the armor thing too but...you shouldn't have to have both certs..

[oddfish]

I'm in agreement with most of these ideas. But i think another good one would be a kind of small sphere of influence around the BR20's that would kind of, increase the "morale" of the troops around him or her. In other words, the guys in your immediate area would be able to slowly regenerate health and stamina. This would be at a very slow rate but it would really help during battle because after each minor skirmish you wouldn't have to be shouting for a medic like a mad person. Plus, the more BR20's you've got in one spot, the more regeneration that takes place in their collective sphere's of influence. For instance, say three SoF's overlap, then if you're in the overlap you regenerate three times as much. If you have three BR20's right next to each other then the guys right around them would heal at an exponential rate.
It's like adrenaline healing your wounds.

This would make the idea of having elite units around less of an individual thing and more of a team based concept. The more of these guys you've got, the better the "morale." I think this would make battles more intense because the idea would be to take down the elite guys. It would, then, inflict both a kill and a mental hit to the opposition. Plus, you'd have guys protecting BR20's just to keep them alive long enough to help with the fight. This would be especially good when zerging a facility :D because you get three or four of these guys in with some regular grunts and they'd be repairing exponentially.

The way to counteract the amazing power this affords is that once you leave the sphere of influence your Stamina and health would drop a certain degree, maybe cut down to two thirds what is left after you leave the SoF. That way it would be clear that it's "adrenaline" healing your wounds, not actual magical regerative powers.

This may sound pretty ridiculous, or I may have something here. I don't know. But If this post comes off sounding really retarded please don't flame me. I think the idea of this post isn't to flame bad ideas, but to applaud good ones, correct?

[Krinsath]

It's a decent idea, but it reduces the value of medics, which is already in need of serious help.

I've always considered morale to be better represented by stamina than health. When you're energized, you tend to be able to do more things before you get tired.

Doing an area benefit around a BR20 though, I think that would lead to BR20-only squads (like in the idea presented, a full squad of 10 BR20s would almost be a moving medic) which in turn leaves the lower ranks without the benefit of their abilities.

Nice idea, but I don't think it'd be good to put it into the game. Any other thoughts?

[SilverLord]

I like that moral concept very much indeed. There would have to be some adjustments due to the huge amount of BR20's out there.


More BR's which would be EXTREEMLY hard to get and would require weeks of killing.
Along with BR's would come more cert points of course but it would depend on how many BR's there would be.
Also, if this was to be implemented, the BR say... 23's armor color would have to drmasitcally changed to let everyone know that he is BR 23 and has the moral ability and is able to regenerate your health.
These are all the changes I can think of atm so...try it on for size. :)

[Krinsath]

Insta-revives would be bad for gameplay and balance issues. I like the armor thing too but...you shouldn't have to have both certs..

Only problem with being able to do it as adv. medic only is you end up with the RtCW situation.

Let's say you see a guy with no armor and a bit of health...you're only an Advanced Medic so you can't repair his armor, but if you revive the guy you get some of his armor back, so you kill him and then revive him (happens constantly in RtCW because revives are faster than dishing out health packs). That'd throw off gameplay too.

[SilverLord]

Only problem with being able to do it as adv. medic only is you end up with the RtCW situation.Are we talkin Return of Castle Wolfenstein here or what?

[Krinsath]

Are we talkin Return of Castle Wolfenstein here or what?

Yes, Yes we are. :)

[oddfish]

I agree with the fact that it would reduce need of medics IF i hadn't included the fact that once you leave the relatively small SoF of the br20's that you're health and stamina would dramatically drop if you took significant damage in a battle. The effects of teh BR20 sphere are only temporary, not permanent. They wouldn't heal you in any way, only slowly boost health and stamina while you were in their SoF.

And BR20's would have no effect on other BR20's. This would mean that having an all BR20 squad would be pretty much pointless. And like i said, TEMPORARY regeneration, not permanent. So you'd need medics even more because once you leave the SoF you could find yourself pretty damn close to a trip to the respawn tubes.

I'm not reducing the necessity of medics, I'm reducing the necessity of people getting easily killed in battle by spammers and ALSO giving the BR20's a new ability and then increasing the need for medics by making sure that if you leave the presence of your BR20 then you're gonna be in dire need.

Like when you have an adrenaline rush, you don't know you've damaged yourself until it's too late. So, in essence i've increased the need for medics because there's gonna be a lot more half dead infantry post battle than before. And also, you can't always be in the SoF and when you leave you're going to need a medic unless you have an abundance of medpacks.

[Krinsath]

Interesting that it's temporary, but does that mean it'd be possible for a soldier to exist solely on the BR20 provided health and when you (the BR20) leave the area they lose points and die?

If it was one of many abilities that they could choose from (i.e. - not EVERY BR20 would have this effect, only those who choose to), I suppose it wouldn't be too awful bad for the medics. But how would a medic be able to tell the difference between someone who's hyped up on BR20 juice and who actually is at full health?

[oddfish]

medics would have a kind of way to distinguish between the BR20 adrenal regenerators and between actual half dead guys.

and leaving the sphere alive means that you're obviously not dead, or you'd be dead in the sphere.

Your health and stamina are reduced to two thirds what you have in the sphere once you leave the sphere. No matter how much damage you took.

In other words, if you leave the sphere with half of your life left, then you have 2/3 of half of your health. same with stamina. if you leave with your stamina bar full, then you leave with 2/3 of your stamina. this happens no matter how much damage you took in battle

Being int he BR20 SoF can't prevent you from dying, it just helps you regenerate SLOWLY so you can stay in the fight LONGER. Medics would still have to run in and fix people even if they're in the SoF if it looks like they're about to die. The BR20 SoF wouldn't be a medic station, just a way to keep people in battle longer.

Plus, the BR20's could turn off the SoF like an implant. So, when not in battle, they'd turn off the SoF. Plus, the SoF would be very small. maybe enough for a small squad of soldiers.
The SoF's regeneration rate would also have to be very slow, very very slow in fact so that it would really only be that helpful if there were more than one BR20 in the area. Plus, the 2/3 damage modifier would only hit you if you took damage while in the SoF. If you took no damage, you lose no health when you leave the SoF.

[Krinsath]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I don't see any major problems with the idea...the implementation could be tricky, but the idea itself seems ok. The devil is always in the details, and that's true of bunches of my ideas too. ;)

It's a characterful addition, encourages teamwork, is temporary, not overpowering and optional. Hard to come up with flaws in the concept here. Good show.

[EarlyDawn]

Elite abilities should be just that, enhancements to their certs that are like accompanying abilities, like guided missles for the Mosquito. I'm totally against anything that changes CoF, RoF, or ammo box size.

[Dharkbayne]

:thumbsup:

[Queensidecastle]

I rather like the Devs ideas for post BR 20 skills. I think they will infuse a lot of life into the game. As far as Adv Medics not being a strong support role because of backpacks, was an idea that came out fairly soon after release. I believe at that time the Devs said they liked that idea but there was a technical limitation to them being able to implement it. Perhaps that is something they will be able to change when they iplement the BR 20+ changes this summer

[Krinsath]

Elite abilities should be just that, enhancements to their certs that are like accompanying abilities, like guided missles for the Mosquito. I'm totally against anything that changes CoF, RoF, or ammo box size.

Arguably, it is a simple enhancement for Medium Assault, Heavy Assault, and other Infantry certs. Why should vehicle drivers and support personell be the only ones to benefit from elite abilities when it's just as viable to be a hard-core infantry grunt and get to BR20? I'd want elite abilities that help me with my chosen specialty.

Thinking on it further though, I'd rather split that into 5 separate abilties. One to increase the size of the 9mm and energy boxes to 75, one to up the shotguns to 24, one to up the sniper rounds to 15, one for the rocklet/grenades to go up to 18, and one to up the AV ammo to 150% of standard. If a player racks up the experience to get 5 elite abilities, he must be doing something right. Also, a mechanism would need to be put in that made it so that the ammo boxes were unusable by those who lacked the appropriate ability (so the BR20 doesn't become an ammo depot for his buddies). The RoF of the weapon remains the same, so all it does is allow them to carry more support gear or remain in the field longer, not an overpowering change as they can still be killed as easy as the next guy.

I rather like the Devs ideas for post BR 20 skills. I think they will infuse a lot of life into the game. As far as Adv Medics not being a strong support role because of backpacks, was an idea that came out fairly soon after release. I believe at that time the Devs said they liked that idea but there was a technical limitation to them being able to implement it. Perhaps that is something they will be able to change when they iplement the BR 20+ changes this summer

I like the IDEAS the Devs are presenting, I just disagree with the idea that they should be BR20 only. The flight model, for instance, would be basically ensuring that only BR20s would ever be pilots (a pilot who can do loops and rolls and real flight manuevers will wipe the floor with a guy who can only do what the current flight model allows). Adding a second holster to only a BR20 infiltrator would make being less than a BR20 infiltrator a frustration. Sure, they're great things to work for, but they upset the balance too much. That's why they need to be, as EarlyDawn said, minor enhancements and tweaks.

[oddfish]

I don't know, i think that CoF decrease might be okay seeing as all it indicates is that your character has attained a more steady hand. I dunno, maybe it should just be attributed the the shooter's actual ability and control, not the character's.

But, i'm refining my BR20 "morale" SoF idea. I'll have a detailed concept out to you guys soon. I think I can work the bugs out. party:

[Krinsath]

I viewed the CoF enhancement as a combination of experience, arm strength and...oddly enough, better recoil suppressors on the weapon since recoil is the reason the devs give for CoF bloom (most of my thoughts center around upgraded equipment being handed out to elite soldiers, and tend to make better sense viewed in that light). It's nothing major, and subtle enough that an improperly trained soldier is not going to get benefit out of it, but a trained soldier with these new systems can squeeze out 2-3 shots more before the CoF bloom begins (the # of shots being adjusted by the RoF of the weapon compared to damage per hit...MCG gets 4-5, Gauss gets 1-2 since they inflict differing amounts of damage).

[Indecisive]

Reply to original post:

I dont think that a COF reduction would be fair. Or max suit turning. The other stuff sounds good.

The idea is that shooting is still based on skill, not artifical enhancers.


/edit/


Extra implant: AIMBOT

:lol:

[oddfish]

shhhhh.. don't even MENTION aimbot in here. that, my friend, is the name of evil. :evil:

[Krinsath]

I dont think that a COF reduction would be fair. Or max suit turning. The other stuff sounds good.

The CoF reduction doesn't mean overall tighter CoF, it means that there's a few more rounds (2 or 3, not a tremndous benefit, but for long range rifle combat, a definite boost) before the CoF begins it's normal bloom. Looking back that was poorly worded, my apologies.

The MAX turning ability being increased is also the only ability that carries with it a slight nerf, as you give up some inventory space for it. I admit that is probably the weakest of the ideas, but I needed to come up with something for MAX pilots as well, and letting them use BANKs was certainly Over the Top ;)

Thinking along those lines though, what about an ability for MAXes that would repair their own armor at a rate of 4 per second when stationary? By my math that is about 3 minutes (162.5 seconds) of being stationary to fully repair. Perhaps a lower number so that engineers are still really needed. I'd envision this as being sort of a nanite dispenser that automatically repairs the armor. Make it so that players with this ability have access to an ammo sized box (MAX ammo sized) that gives 100 seconds of repair time. The choice then becomes ammo or repair time, so there's a slight offset factor there. Plus, if something damages a MAX that severely, if they can find 3 minutes away from it, they deserve a reward. ;)

[oddfish]

that's rather clever.

kind of along the lines of the BR20 SoI adrenaline boost, but it's individual and for MAXes. this is great, i'm actually getting all this stuff down. i think i'm going to put together a wish list for the devs once we've refined the BR20 ideas.

[Krinsath]

that's rather clever.

kind of along the lines of the BR20 SoI adrenaline boost, but it's individual and for MAXes. this is great, i'm actually getting all this stuff down. i think i'm going to put together a wish list for the devs once we've refined the BR20 ideas.

Just make sure the proper people get credit so we don't have to lynch you. ;)

Or we could just tell the Devs to come here....that'd be funny. :) Who knows....Spork might be reading this as we type.... *paranoid look over shoulder*

Thinking about your SoF with BR20s again, perhaps an increased stamina drain on the enemy when facing multiple (and I stress multiple) enemy BR20s? Think of it as the enemy being demoralized by the prescence of the your own elite troops...since the BR20 uniform is distinctive across the empires from all others, it makes a sort of sense. It would only be available while the BR20 ability was active, and would only increase the stamina costs of any actions you do. If there's no stamina cost associated with an action (i.e. - running, enhanced targeting, firing) then there's no increase to do it, but things like jumping and the active implants would drain it just a smidge faster...to go up as high as 175% of normal drain when confronted by more than 8 BR20s in a 10m area. Thoughts?

[oddfish]

first, i won't rip off ideas, i promise, that would make me the ultimate asshat.

second, i do like this idea, but i'm not sure how it would be implemented and if it would cause too much of a codingproblemidon'tknowwhatthefucki'msaying.

all i know is that the idea of BR20's, the elite guys, having the ability to alter the combat capacity of soldiers around them would make this game seem even more like real combat. that is all.

[Dharkbayne]

I'd like to see a BR 20 bonus, nothing big, but like, 10% faster reload, and the COF of all weapons shrinks 20% faster, or something.

[oddfish]

but that's just not enough for ME.

i want a whole fucking PARADE, not a horse drawn buggy and a midget carrying a balloon.

[Krinsath]

I don't know Dhark. They do make sense, but those are touchy issues with people as they go directly to balance. With the reload boost, you'd have to almost cut it in half before you got productive numbers out of it...and there WOULD be issues with that. That might be a good one for a MAX with a slow reload timer, but for standard infantry that would be a bit much.

Perhaps a trade-off where the RoF is reduced to compensate for the lower CoF? I'm not a big fan of systems that require a nerf for the ability, but there are somethings that you don't want to tinker with too heavily.

For those who are still confused by the way I'm thinking these abilities will work, they're a lot like certs, except you get 1 per level. So if I wanted the extra 9mm ammo, air-to-air missiles and my lightning to go 10kph faster, I would need to get 3 times the weighted XP to get from BR19 to BR20...there are no "free" abilities in this idea as up to BR20, you receive cert points.

This is "post" BR20, not "at" BR20. :) At least, that's how my design is approaching it. That way it will take even the most dedicated of all day gamers quite a while to get EVERY ability...especially if there is a *wide* variety of ideas. Come on! I know more of you have them!

[Dharkbayne]

Like I said, nothing MAJOR, just a slight edge, I don't want to see BR 20's running around with Mini-LashHammers

[Krinsath]

That's what we're aiming for. :) Enough of a boost to be worthwhile, such as the additional ammo, but nothing that will be overpowering or alter the use of a weapon (like making a JH fire energy rounds that lash).

[oddfish]

becoming BR20 should not affect physical equipment in the game. that, to me, is not the essence of gaining experience.