Space Combat REDUX - no flaming please.

[oddfish]

Okay, this was and should again be a major discussion. Krinsath is working on a collaboration of concepts from what I gather and I think this thread should turn into something we can show the devs. -- that means no flames!

now, post your REFINED ideas about space combat, if you so feel the need to do so.

[Krinsath]

Oooo! I'd really appreciate any artists out there helping me with concept art. :) I absolutely suck when it comes to designing these things to show people what I'm thinking about.

[oddfish]

i have a Wacom digital art pad. i could definitely draw your stuff up for you Krins, just send me the specs. :D

[Krinsath]

Ok...this is a repost for those who don't want to dig it up and sift through the random conversations in the original thread. If you saw it before, it's the same thing...this if for the people who weren't around/didn't bother after the thread was hijacked. This is basically the rough draft, so please ignore the spelling errors.

SPACE COMBAT EXPANSION

Ok, the Space around Auraxis is represented by combat in an airless vaccum, without gravity for the most part on a playing field roughly equal to the size of largest continent, except everything is in the play area. This should be done to provide the highest concentration of space battles while not diluting the player base on the surface...perhaps make two "hemispheres" and have one active and the other present *just in case* the player base LOVES space combat and there's never any room in orbit. The expansion should fully viable off of one play area though. Should the second area be needed, the number of ships would be cut in half (i.e. - 1 of each class in each hemisphere instead of 2). Benefits from owning both still apply regardless of the number of active zones (see below.)

The hard vaccuum of space is more than most armors can stand unprotected. Standards and Agiles die in 10 seconds if exposed to direct vaccuum. Rexos have 30 seconds to try and reach a ship/base (really only going to happen if you're very close). MAXes survive as normal, but have very limited movement.

Each empire, has an orbital base. This functions similar to the Santuary on the surface, and is reachable via the HART only. There would be a toggle on the HART screen similar to the Cavern/Continent view toggle in the caves that would allow those with the expansion to travel into orbit. The orbital stations can be attacked, however, they cannot be boarded. Each is armed with a number of Ion defensive cannons (more on those later).

There are two types of "objectives" in orbit, ships and stations. The ships are the main objective of the game, each with multiple critical systems that must be held for "ownership", these represent the ships that originally traveled through the wormhole, and they provide benefits directly to the surface. The Satelitte stations do not provide any direct benefit to the surface, but will provide benefits in space.

SHIPS AND STATIONS

The ships types and functions are the following:

Transport ships - These were the original ships that transported the then-colonists. They have since been modified into giant drop pod carriers. The empire who controls this ship may HART drop onto the affected continent, regardless of Dominion or Lock status. They may also drop into the SOI of any non-Capitol or sub-Capitol. Controlling both of the Transports results in the HART timer on the surface being halved. The ship itself is armed with a respectable number of turrets, but unlikely to withstand a coordinated assault.

Science Vessels - In the early days of the colonization, these ships were responsible for the early unlocking of Vanu technology. The knowledge in their databanks is invaluable, and when beamed down to the surface can swing the tide in the controlling empire's favor. Controlling a Science ship results in the affected continent having all FLB available through control of bases, even if the bases are not connected via the Lattice. Generator destruction will result in that FLB being lost as the information cannot be relayed. The continent always counts as having the Tech Plant FLB, even if hacking an enemy vehicle terminal. Controlling both science vessels allows AT weapons/vehicles to be acquired from any empire equipment terminal, even Sanctuary. This ship has only a few turrets, and will only be able to repulse the most disorderly of attacks.

Warships - The protection of the early days, the two warships that arrived with the colonization ships are still some of the most powerful weapons in the system. They are also the largest. Maintaining control of one gives the controlling empire access to advanced space weapons and also a CR5 on the bridge may execute one "free" OS per hour. That is an empire wide 1 hour, so multiple CR5s will not be able to use it. The hour still applies even if the ship is captured by multiple empires over the course of that time. Controlling both Warships allows the space fighters to be used on the surface. These ships are extremely heavily armed, and if properly crewed will destroy all but the most dedicated assaults.

The Satellite stations are scattered somewhat randomly, and there are roughly 4 of each type). Their functions are as follows (Note: All stations include 2 Spawn tubes and 1 Equipment terminal):

Gun platforms - Defensive emplacements. They have a turret above and below as well as a medium hangar terminal.

Sensor Station - Unarmed. Control reveals all enemy ships (not EVA suits) in radar range so long as the friendly sensor station is the closest such station (i.e. - flying closer to an enemy ship or station will lose this benefit). Has light hangar facility.

Dock - Four turrets in a ring. Includes space repair platform and 2 medium hangars. The Docks are the only place outside of the Orbital Bases to get a Repair ship.

Fighter Base (only 2 of these) - 2 Turrets, space repair platform, heavy ship terminal.

NEW CERTIFICATIONS:

Extra-Vehicular Access (EVA) Suit - An attempt at making a middle ground between MAXes and Rexo soldiers, it was found to be too weak to be used where a MAX suit was, but too bulky to replace the Rexo as a viable surface armor and so the concept was initially shelved. However, the nature of the armor makes it ideal for space travel with a minimum of modification. Equipped with thrusters and mag boots, the EVA allows full travel in space for an individual soldier. The EVA has 300 armor and has armor absorbtion similar to the Rexo. If reduced to 0 armor, they lose the benefits of being able to be out in the vaccuum until repaired. The suit includes 2 Rifle slots, but only 1 pistol slot, which can only be occupied by grenades and REKs, no Medical Applicators or BANKs. EVAs CAN carry the "glue gun". Cost: 2 certs.

NEW VEHICLES

Thunderbird Light Fighter - Agile, one man fighter. Weak armor, Class 1 Laser cannon (in space, the weapons are largely laser based due to the distances involved) which roughly equates to a 20mm cannon. Able to enter air-locks, but deconstructs after doing so (1 way ticket). Cert: Air Cav

Bandit Medium Fighter - Bulkier, two man fighter. Medium armor, Class 1 rearward laser cannon (2nd crewman), Dual Class 2 Laser Cannons (25mm equivalent) forward firing for pilot. Able to enter air-locks. Cert: Ground Transport

Typhoon Heavy Bomber - four man bomber. Pilot (no weapons), front gunner (Class 2 cannon), Rear gunner (Class 1 Cannon), "bomber" (Immoltator Missile Rack). Armor slightly larger than the Bandit. Cert: Air Support

Salvation Repair Craft - Light armor, unarmed. Can dock at air-locks (similar mechanism to ANT deploy), contributing repair points until drained (see Damaging Ships) when it deconstructs. Cert: CE

Mauler Heavy Transport - Massive aircraft, capable of transporting 15 troops (1 Pilot, 4 Gunners, 6 Infantry and 4 MAXes/EVAs). Rearward firing Class 2 Cannon, two side mounted Class 3 [35mm equivalent] and a Turbolaser turret on top with fixed firing arc[150mm equivalent...power offset by need for coordination between gunner and pilot]. When docked to an airlock, functions as a spawn point w/equipment terminal at the end of the assault tube (players will spawn in the airlock, mechanism similar to AMS). When a Mauler is docked to an air-lock, no further ships may enter or leave that air-lock until the Mauler is destroyed or undeploys. Mauler is hackable when docked. Cert: Ground Support

Stiletto Special Operations Craft - Representing the pinnacle of stealth technology, this 3 man craft is jet black (only sign it's there will be the blinking out of stars as it passes by) and invisible to all radar. Lightly armored, with medium speed and no weapons, the Stiletto can dock with an air-lock (same manner as the Thunderbird) without setting off an alarm. This craft is purpose built for inserting sabotage teams onto enemy ships and stations.

GAMEPLAY/SHIP LAYOUT

Each ship has six separate objectives that must be held for control of that ship to belong to a given empire. All have 5 minute hack timers (ship boarding is fast and furious)They are:

1) Bridge - Control of the bridge will determine dominion of the ship. Only assailable if at least one of the other two spawn points is held by the attacking empire.
2) Engines - If the side controlling the engines does not have Dominion, the spawn time for the controlling factions get a 5s spawn penalty. Destroying the engines will cause the gravity to fail, posing movement problems for non-EVAs.
3) Sensor Array - If the Sensor Array is lost, radar will no longer display incoming enemy craft and the turrets will no longer auto-fire. Alerts will not sound for intrusions, only for damage to critical areas or hacks.
4) Hangar Bay - Contains the launch terminals for the ship. Only usable by controlling faction. Science ships have Light terminals, Transports have mediums and warships have Heavy.
5) Reactor Core - If this is destroyed, the ship will be on very dim red emergency lights (VERY dim. Dominion ownership will cause the automated spitfires on the inside to fire at enemies.
6) Security/Armory - One of three spawn points. Required to assault bridge.

[Krinsath]

All six areas must be functional for the ship benefits to apply to the surface. Spawn points are the Bridge, Security and Hangar Bay.

"Hulking" a ship is accomplished by destroying four of the six vital areas. When a ship is hulked, it decompresses killing all non-EVAs and non-MAXes, rendering the turrets unusable and the remaining equipment is destroyed. No spawning is possible and the ship reverts to a neutral state. Engineers cannot repair the areas once a ship has been hulked until they bring in repair ships. It takes three repair ships docking to bring the ship into an internally repairable state. After the third ship has docked, the terminals may be hacked and repaired via normal means. Until 4 critical systems are brought online, hulked ships are treated as entirely vaccuum and only accessible to EVA suits (making this a critcal cert for the Space Combat Expansion).

The ships themselves are a mass of corridors and rooms, very maze-like. At random intervals there are sentry guns of roughly Spitfire class that will fire at all enemy soldiers. Destroyed sentry guns may be repaired as usual. The fighting is truly claustrophobic, with traps and ambushes being the order of the day. The boarding action will literally be a room by room and hallway by hallway battle to the critical areas. The size of the ship depends on the type. A science vessel is roughly the size of a base, but one level and stretched. The Transports are two levels, but about the same overall size as the Science ships with lots of big cargo bays. The Warships are montrous, with three different decks and each deck about the size of the science vessel. Zipline like technology and loading ramps provide access between the three levels.

The ships are accessible via airlocks, which are of varying number depending on ship class. Science vessels have 2 airlocks, Transports 4 and Warships 6. These are represented by forcefields. Thunderbirds and Stilettos can directly enter the airlock, Maulers and Salvation ships can dock with them (for a Salvation to dock, the bridge must be under friendly control and not hacked), but Bandits and Typhoons cannot enter Science or Transport ships, but they can land inside of the Warships hangar bays provided no Mauler is blocking access. For the other two types of ships, the crews can bail out near an air lock and attempt to get in, but this will not be a sure thing. Again, a Mauler docked to an airlock completely blocks access to all other forces, friendly and enemy. Alarms will sound on the ship the moment an air-lock is breached by an enemy Thunderbird, EVA or docked with by a Mauler. Stilettos will not set off the alarms.

Alarms function as red siren lights (similar to the surface generator down lights) and will continue for one minute past the last intrusion. If any part of the ship is under hack, the lights will stay on.

The Stations are simple layouts with a single control point and a few hallways. The battles for these are mainly outside, once inside there's very little room to force an attacker back. The Stations have a 3 minute hack timer to allow response forces from the nearest base/ship to be mustered. Stations have 1 airlock, but Maulers cannot dock at them as a spawn point, only to disgorge their carried troops into the station (smaller airlocks than ships, which is what the Mauler is designed to attack). Orbital bases have 3 Airlocks, which are empire specific shielded like the old sanctuary warpgates. All aircraft are permitted to fly into the Orbital base's airlock (which is really more like a hangar bay on the bases and Warships).

LATTICE (or DEFENSE GRID)

For lack of a better term, there is a Lattice in space. The Orbital bases are linked to the Stations, which in turn are linked to each other and to ships. This forms a defense grid of sorts and no hacks can be placed on a ship until the defense net as been breached. Once the ship can be hacked, any of the five non-bridge structures are eligble targets, so a boarding action can begin anywhere. Crews stationed in an airlock will of course be in the best position to repulse an attempted assault.

ORBITAL SHIFTS

After a certain amount of time (8 hours or so) the positions of the ship's relative to the surface will change. This will put each ship over a new continent where their effects will be contributed. There will obviously be 4 continents per cycle that will not be affected by any ship. Slightly unrealistically, the Stations and ships will probably remain generally static since they will be part of the "map"...if possible though, I'd like the positions of everything on the map except orbital bases to shift position and alignment.


NEW WEAPONS

In addition to the previously mentioned Laser cannons which have similar performance to weapons on the surface, the following new weapons:

Immoltator Missile Rack - Found on the Typhoon heavy bomber, it fires large seeking torpedoes. The target lock must be maintained or the missile will scatter widely and miss or strike non-vital areas. Useful only against Stations, Bases and Ship turrets and docked Maulers (i.e. - big, non-moving targets). Each missile is roughly equivalent to a 8 striker missiles. Against the lighter turrets, this will be almost destroyed, and a severe hit to the larger turrets. After tracking the target, the reticule must be on it for 3 seconds before lock is achieved. This means a Typhoon on a bombing run almost has to fly straight and level, opening it up to fire from both it's target and any supporting turrets. The trade-off for being able to inflict serious damage in one shot.

Hoplite Anti-Fighter Turret - The most common turret found on ships, it consists of 2 Class 2 laser cannons. It has armor equivalent to a Phalanx on the surface.

Legionaire Anti-Ship Cannon - Highly destructive beam (along lines of Vanguard's gun) but very slow rate of fire. Really only useful against bombers and Maulers, but going to swat any other craft foolish enough to fly in front of it. Very slow traverse speed as well.

Gladius Point Defense Emplacement - Found inside of warships, they guard the corridors with a gun comparable to a stabilized MCG. They are like Ancient Sentry Turrets and mannable by whoever gets there. Creates a base of fire for a corridor battle. However, if you're not careful, you're decimator bait.

As you can see by looking at the weaponry, taking down the turrets on a defended ship or station will be quite difficult, as there are few high caliber assault weapons. Maulers can own stations, but are among the easiest to kill aircraft in space and readily visible on radar at all times.

TURRET LOADOUTS

Science Vessel - 12 Hoplite turrets.

Transport - 28 Hoplite Turrets, 4 Legionaire.

Warship - 40(!!) Hoplite Turrets, 10 Legionaires (remember these ships are huge)

Given the difference in theoretical sizes, there shouldn't be a situation where a spacecraft is targeted by more than 3 turrets (except the Dock Station). Remember, those Turrets cover above and below, so halve them before trying to figure out spacing.

EDITS: Forgot to mention this. On the surface, the ground is (generally) 0 and the ceiling is 400. For the space combat expansion, things would start with 200 as the base, meaning there's 200m of movement room above and below stations, bases and ships.

NEW VEHICLE

Minion Class Infantry Shuttle - Medium armor and speed, capable of carrying 1 pilot and 4 passengers. Unarmed, requires escort for long journeys. Available to anyone with a vehicle cert (similar to ANT). Can enter airlocks in same manner as Thunderbird, sets off Alarms.

Realized that the grunts needed some sort of basic vehicle to get around since they can't just "hoof" it. As common as vehicle certs are, it should be possible for a full squad to be transported in two of these. Hopefully though, in a squad of 10 there would be at least one or two people with a cert that could do escort work.

[oddfish]

Damn, Krins.. you really sat down and pondered this one. i'm on board with essentially all the ideas.

[Krinsath]

Actually, that was off the cuff at work. ;) I wanted more turrets...but felt that was going a bit too far.

Oh, and which ideas are problems? I might have already resolved them. :)

[Red October]

Fairly good ideas, he who controls the spice controls the universe...ummm..I mean he who controls the warships controls the orbital strikes. But I think before the dev's can even say "expansion" a couple of things need to happen.

1) People have to start saying "we want an expansion".
2) They have to make Core Combat a viable expansion....you know...people actually going into the caverns. Otherwise they may have a tough time convincing thier bosses at Sony for $$ to go through with it. I can hear it now "you can't justify the costs for the first expansion and now you want to do a second!?". Core Combat is going to be an uphill battle.

But all in all, I think its a good idea to discuss expansion ideas should the day come, the Dev's will have a good amount of suggestions as to what thier customers want.

[oddfish]

My question is will there be space based NAVAL battles.. like, capital ship VS. capital ship. i dunno, each ship would have a bridge crew of about 15. Then, CR5's could assume the roll of Admiral and essentially be the ship's commander. That'd make for some interesting space combat.

[Krinsath]

Fairly good ideas, he who controls the spice controls the universe...ummm..I mean he who controls the warships controls the orbital strikes. But I think before the dev's can even say "expansion" a couple of things need to happen.

1) People have to start saying "we want an expansion".
2) They have to make Core Combat a viable expansion....you know...people actually going into the caverns. Otherwise they may have a tough time convincing thier bosses at Sony for $$ to go through with it. I can hear it now "you can't justify the costs for the first expansion and now you want to do a second!?". Core Combat is going to be an uphill battle.

But all in all, I think its a good idea to discuss expansion ideas should the day come, the Dev's will have a good amount of suggestions as to what thier customers want.

Of course there's no need for it now, but imagine if there was an expansion being released that was designed by the community with the community's desires in mind and presented as it actually was, there'd actually be a demand for it. Problem with Core Combat was that they kept it so under wraps and presented it incorrectly, so that drove down interest when it turned out different. Nice thing about Space Combat means that it's harder to screw up surface combat, as there's no "geo-warp" to screw things up. :)

[oddfish]

that's for damned sure.. another question that arises though is, are there enough people in the community to make both surface AND space combat seem large scale and fulfilling as a means of playing the game.

[Krinsath]

My question is will there be space based NAVAL battles.. like, capital ship VS. capital ship. i dunno, each ship would have a bridge crew of about 15. Then, CR5's could assume the roll of Admiral and essentially be the ship's commander. That'd make for some interesting space combat.

Only problem there would be one empire putting all the capital ships near their orbital base and maintaining space lock indefinately. That's why it was revised to explain that the engines really aren't powerful enough to break orbital path anymore (they were allowed to fall into disrepair and being non-Vanu technology, can't benefit from normal repairs). Seems with the ease of repairs with Vanu-based tech, people forgot how to use a monkeywrench correctly. ;)

I flirted briefly with the idea of Cap ship on Cap ship, but in the end decided that with the big ships as the objectives, it wasn't the best of ideas. Originally there was a ship a class above the Mauler that was like a destroyer to the battleships that are in orbit...but it got to be overly complicated too.

that's for damned sure.. another question that arises though is, are there enough people in the community to make both surface AND space combat seem large scale and fulfilling as a means of playing the game.

That's why I only wanted 1 play area instead of 2. :) With poplocks the way they are, there's usually only 2 or 3 places to fight heavily. Since Space Combat is always reachable as an alternative, it shouldn't dilute too heavily, but will certainly attract pilots who will love to prove their skills in zero-g and CQB lovers who will enjoy the insanely tight quarter feel of the interior of ships. Also, unlike CC, there's always a guaranteed spawn. ;)

[oddfish]

i dunno.. i think there should be some kind of corvette or light frigate class ships availabe.. like the MBT's of space combat or something.

[OfaLoaf]

I always thought the aircrafts in Planetside already looked spaceworthy. Why not use them, instead of the fighters you thought up?

[oddfish]

because the introduction of new vehicles makes the space experience more interesting. rather than just saying: Okay, take the old shit and let's toss it in the back of the truck and haul it up to space. good job guys, here's your five bucks.

[Krinsath]

Really, because there wouldn't be that many rearm pads for the current weapons. The advantage of new weapons is you can bend the rules slightly. Plus there's a slight physics reason as well...those aircraft have no means of reversing thrust to a sufficent level. In space, you don't have friction to slow you down.

One of the concepts I was working on (like I said, what's up there is rough draft) was the ability for fighters to "powerdown" in space and become invisible to radar and mask their visibilty. This would be especially effective in the asteroid and junk fields (again, rough draft...some new concepts in the offing :) ) and would allow them to do ambushes of passing convoys.

On the topic of mini-ships (for lack of a better distinguishing term) I'd thought that it would be cool to include something like that, from destroyer up to a light frigate, but they always felt "wrong"...they wouldn't be right as vehicles, as there's an awful lot of wasted space...there's already a bunch of transport vehicles, so they wouldn't be as useful for that...

I suppose that portion could be examined again. I also want to do a revamp of the weapons to put in a few more "spacey" ones...like I said, this design sheet was off the cuff. :)

[oddfish]

my idea isn't to have a zillion of these damn things running around, or even as many as there are vanguards, in fact, far fewer, plus no vehicle bays to spawn them. The idea is you can board these smaller class vessels and take them for your empire. They can't be destroyed but massive damage will disable them and kill the crew. They'd remain in space and float about when disabled and would require massive amounts of repair to bring them back online.

[Krinsath]

That was my thought too...more like "mobile towers" in a sense in that they'd have capture points and require 1 Salvation ship to start repairs after being hulked.

Then I thought about the PS engine and the horror stories the devs give us in regards to towers being part of the map etc. so I re-thought that idea. Couldn't come up with a satisfactory way of making them work without being boardable (by that I mean they have their own interior layout), so the idea was shelved as a "well, if I think of a good way to put it back in I will" sort of thing. :)

If I don't respond for a bit, it's because I'm actually playing PS, instead of posting about it. :D

[oddfish]

gotcha.. so we wait for a more efficient means to add this concept to the game, if none arises, we scrap it. gotcha. :D

[OfaLoaf]

So there'd be
-A couple huge undestroyable warships that just get severely damaged and can be taken by all sides, boarding parties and all.
-A few more medium ships (transports, stations).
-Many small 1 and 2-person ships.

[oddfish]

basically.. sort of.. i think..

[MYcrimsonTEARS]

1) reaver should have lock one rockets ... in space of course :)
2) the bases ether should be LARGE ships or LARGE bases on some moon
3)troops with lower armor than max should have a lemited time in space so the max can take center stage
4)only air craft can be spwaned.
5) libs bombs become dumb fire and are more like rockets but do no less damage.
6)there should be more def. items in the bases like blast doors or spites inside
7)the eject system should be alterd to shoot you behind the craft.
8)a pilot pick up vech should be made... posably a dual perpose vech thats smaller than the gall but can hold jut as many PEOPLE.
9)a pilot suite should be made
10) you knew it was coming... empire air craft! :D

[Krinsath]

You left out the orbital stations, which are similar to the huge ships.

Those huge ships can be "destroyed" meaning they provide absolutely no benefit whatsoever and are just big pieces of scenery. They also have an impact on the surface though (benefits are up for debate still!) so it becomes worthwhile to get them. And God help the other two Empires if one manages to get and maintain space lock on a weekend.... ;) Since a lot of CR5s put in 6 hours or more on those days...that's a terrifying amount of OSes to deal with.

Hence, why you need to be in space to keep it from happening. :)

I'm also tinkering with new fighter and bomber designs, but as I've said elsewhere, there's only so much you can do before you just start repeating a theme.

[kcirreda]

Oddfish, no 1 can take u serious with that NC sunchine thing (LOL). I like what your trying to do. Just keep up da good work!

[Krinsath]

1) reaver should have lock one rockets ... in space of course :)
2) the bases ether should be LARGE ships or LARGE bases on some moon
3)troops with lower armor than max should have a lemited time in space so the max can take center stage
4)only air craft can be spwaned.
5) libs bombs become dumb fire and are more like rockets but do no less damage.
6)there should be more def. items in the bases like blast doors or spites inside
7)the eject system should be alterd to shoot you behind the craft.
8)a pilot pick up vech should be made... posably a dual perpose vech thats smaller than the gall but can hold jut as many PEOPLE.
9)a pilot suite should be made
10) you knew it was coming... empire air craft! :D

Most of those things are addressed. Some new empire specific craft were added to the design sheet. We're trying to get a depature from the standard PS fare in space (except for the boarding actions, of course).

I do, however, appreciate the suggestion on blast doors...that'd give the security control point an actual purpose (doors are closed if the side with security has dominion, open if they don't). Make the blast doors rather sturdy (like, Vanguard armor) with a pair of sentry guns on them (one big thing for the purpose of damage/repairs) that can be hacked open for 20 seconds. Nice....very nice...gives me warm fuzzies just thinking about that on the warship (not so much on the transport).

Also, if anyone can think of a different capital ship class, don't hesitate to suggest.

[oddfish]

hahaha.. well, i like my sig. it's ridiculous, like i can be sometimes :D

other than that, i'm still fighting for micro-capital ships. i won't let that one die. i'll come up with a good way to implement the damn things, i assure you.

[Krinsath]

hahaha.. well, i like my sig. it's ridiculous, like i can be sometimes :D

other than that, i'm still fighting for micro-capital ships. i won't let that one die. i'll come up with a good way to implement the damn things, i assure you.

I hope you do. I love the concept.

[oddfish]

same here.. it's just so damned complicated.. oh well. :bananasex

[EarlyDawn]

Thoughts:
-MAXes should only be avaliable at the armory.
-Need a ship type (Factory Ship?) that commanders can uplink to and use their CUDs to order in droppods with vehicles at the cost of outfit points.

[Krinsath]

Thoughts:
-MAXes should only be avaliable at the armory.
-Need a ship type (Factory Ship?) that commanders can uplink to and use their CUDs to order in droppods with vehicles at the cost of outfit points.

Both excellent ideas Early. :) Perhaps the ability to drop vehicles if you own a transport? that would entail vehicle creation pads...and the possibility of vehicles in space...a use for those big cargo bays perhaps?

I assume the MAX tweak is for the big ships only. Thinking over it, if you have 3 orbital stations and 4 classes of ship, that's 11 big things on the map, which would be about the size of a continent (which is our design goal) so maybe a factory ship will be added...I'll have to mull that one over.

[oddfish]

if the devs don't A) read this
and if they do read it but B) don't take it seriously
i'm going to be a little bit *ahem* upset... :evil:

[Seer]

I'm against any idea that adds space to this game. It does NOT need more.

[oddfish]

okay.. that's good to know... thank you? :confused:

[LimpBIT]

All i can say is if they could make it work i would love it. But if they did it and it was wrong then it can go to hell :doh:

[oddfish]

precisely. :)

[Mognoc]

Awesome idea. My only suggestion is package the EVA with the ReXo suit, but still have it as a second cert for 2 points for the people who only want the EVA.

[oddfish]

Awesome idea. My only suggestion is package the EVA with the ReXo suit, but still have it as a second cert for 2 points for the people who only want the EVA.

that brings up issues of redundancy though

[cpt crusader]

Very nice concepts floating here - I certainly hope this space element takes off the ground one day. The two moons of Auraxis could definately play a role somewhere, if not then a nice back drop in space.

Keep it up mate!

[oddfish]

yeah.. the space setting would be very pretty

[Krinsath]

I'm not sure about the EVA being bundled with RExo...but, it would fit into the cert structure better if it did. I'll mull that one over.

Seer - Space Combat would be radically different from the surface and Core Combat. The simple fact that 90% of the play area will kill most players is one difference. ;) The surface is an even mix of everything, the Core was really designed for infantry combat (might be where the "urban combat" mislabel came from). The Space is designed for serious CQB (the ships will make most of the bases seem downright luxurious), and pilots who enjoy large dogfights without too many groundpounders mucking things up.

Remember all those Reavers you love to hate? Guess where pilots would like to be. :) According to some people, the fewer (and I quote) "rocket spamming kill whores" on the surface, the better. This gives them a nice format to play around in.

I'll be revising the ideas of the original design sheet and adding in the new stuff (I think I forgot to mention the modified Salvation...idea that snuck in with asteroids) and hopefully be posting the revised sheet today....assuming I can avoid real work for that long. ;) If anyone else has ideas, feel free....I think there have been five or six additions to this (minor, but I like them a lot) since you guys have been talking it over. The more brains the merrier!

[Incompetent]

Most realistic spacecombat post I've read, would be alot of fun :thumbsup:

One suggestion though, put some of those satalite stations in the heavy asteroid fields with just a few hard to navigate corridors for spacecraft to come and go. It could lead to some intense EVA suit combat around them.

Edit: also, do you have any plans for EVA specific weapons and/or some sort of ACE for use in orbital combat? Mines, sentry guns, sensors ect.

[Krinsath]

Most realistic spacecombat post I've read, would be alot of fun :thumbsup:

One suggestion though, put some of those satalite stations in the heavy asteroid fields with just a few hard to navigate corridors for spacecraft to come and go. It could lead to some intense EVA suit combat around them.

Edit: also, do you have any plans for EVA specific weapons and/or some sort of ACE for use in orbital combat? Mines, sentry guns, sensors ect.

Yes, yes we do. :) Without giving too much away, there's a ship available to CEs that's a modified Salvation that can dispense all sorts of goodies, and yes, there will be stations in "terrain" as well as some other new surprises. :D

[PhoenixTypeX]

I love your idea's however Planetsides player base gets very thin at certain times, and this would stretch the concentration of players on a server or even continent at one particular time, removing the zergs which is ok but also the slightly smaller zerg "epic battles" we all love.

[Krinsath]

With the new BWG system, there's been a large reduction in viable fighting continents to begin with (pop locks and all that).

This is only going to add one extra "continent" to fight on, unless it becomes so popular that it is consistently locked, in which case two.

The thing is that expansions bring more players to a game...well, GOOD expansions do...bad expansions scare them away. People who wanted to play PlanetSide, but are more interested in fighter combat would probably prefer the Space Combat as there would be few AA assets around, leading to more "pure" dogfighting.

Plus you get the visceral excitement of being on a transport in a convoy headed to an enemy ship and getting jumped by a squadron of enemy fighters...twisting all around trying to scare them off and yet still continue your approach to the air lock...never knowing if you're going to make it or be turned into space dust.

PlanetSide: Orbital Attack - "In the never-ending war in space, you won't be missed if you die"

Someone PLEASE come up with a better tagline. :)

EDIT: Would people prefer if the revised document was posted here (like before) or if the actual file was hosted somewhere to be downloaded and read? I'd like to avoid posting the whole thing over AGAIN, but without the original it becomes hard for people to compare the changes as the original is on a different page.

[oddfish]

PlanetSide - 133t 5p4c3 C0mb4t!!11 W00T!!11! "ph34r t3h 0ut3r sp4c3" :thumbsup:

[Krinsath]

PlanetSide - 133t 5p4c3 C0mb4t!!11 W00T!!11! "ph34r t3h 0ut3r sp4c3" :thumbsup:

I was thinking more along the lines of "There is no peace among the stars"...but Games Workshop would get mad at the infringment of one of their lines... :rolleyes:

What about posting format? No preference?

[oddfish]

krins, you still gotta mail me some specs for all this shit so i can draw it up. i'm going on spring break here soon and i'll have all the time in the world.

[Krinsath]

I'm gettin there, I'm gettin there....lol

Wanted to get the design sheet done first so I know exactly what you're making images OF. :)

Speaking of, I think it's about as done as it's going to get without further feedback, so I'll be posting it up here in it's entirety in just a second. It's about 7 pages in Word (Verdana, 10pt. font, single spaced with the margins as far out as they'll go) so it's a hefty read. Fair warning. :)

[Krinsath]

As promised, I've tried to bold any changes/clarifications for easier reading:

SPACE COMBAT EXPANSION (PlanetSide: Orbital Attack)

The space around Auraxis is represented by combat in an airless vacuum, without gravity (means infantry can move in 3 dimensions where gravity isn�t present but at half the normal speed) for the most part on a playing field roughly equal to the size of largest continent, except everything is in the play area. This should be done to provide the highest concentration of space battles while not diluting the player base on the surface...perhaps make two "hemispheres" and have one active and the other present *just in case* the player base LOVES space combat and there's never any room in orbit. The expansion should fully viable off of one play area though. Should the second area be needed, the number of ships would be cut in half (i.e. - 1 of each class in each hemisphere instead of 2). Benefits from owning both still apply regardless of the number of active zones (see below.) As an optional mechanism, possibly have 4-6 different maps, but only have 1 or 2 active so that there�s a dynamic feel to the maps (assuming the current work by the Devs on making the maps more mutable does not make this idea unneeded).

The hard vacuum of space is more than most armors can stand unprotected. Standards and Agiles die in 10 seconds if exposed to direct vacuum. Rexos have 30 seconds to try and reach a ship/base (really only going to happen if you're very close). MAXes survive as normal, but have very limited movement (no run mode). Ships can be hulked and the interior is then treated as vacuum just like the outside of the ship. Majority of map is hard to traverse outside of spacecraft (as one would expect). On the surface, the ground is (generally) 0m and the ceiling is 400m. For the space combat expansion, things would start with 200m as the base, meaning there's 200m of movement room above and below stations, bases and ships. Altitude of ships and bases and platforms is random (fighting in three dimensions). Due to the requirement for ships to travel to and from, the vehicle timer on spacecraft in space is 3 minutes instead of 5.

Each empire has an orbital base. This functions similar to the Sanctuary on the surface, and is reachable via the HART only. There would be a toggle on the HART screen similar to the Cavern/Continent view toggle in the caves that would allow those with the expansion to travel into orbit. The orbital stations can be attacked, meaning their turrets destroyed and the base blockaded. However, they cannot be boarded. Each is armed with a number of defensive cannons (more on those later).

There are two types of "objectives" in orbit, ships and stations. The ships are the main objective of the expansion, each with multiple critical systems that must be held for "ownership", these represent the ships that originally traveled through the wormhole, and they provide benefits directly to the surface. The Satellite stations do not provide any direct benefit to the surface, but will provide benefits in space.

ORBITAL SHIFTS

After a certain amount of time (8 hours or so) the positions of the ships relative to the surface will change. This will put each ship over a new continent where their effects will be contributed. There will obviously be 2 continents per cycle that will not be affected by any ship. If possible, the positioning of the ships in relation to the orbital bases should be changed to prevent empires from consistently controlling the same ships.

SHIPS AND STATIONS

The ships types and functions are the following:

Manufacturing ship � When the colonists first arrived from Earth, everything had to be built in space. Since the unlocking of Vanu technology, many of the old manufacturing techniques were abandoned. The huge assembly machines have since been stripped out and replaced by much more efficient Vanu production facilities, the side effect being that the ships now have a large amount of relatively open space. Control of a manufacturing ship halves the vehicle and MAX timers of the affected continent. Controlling both ships allows for vehicles to be dropped from space, however, they cannot drop into an SOI, even if a transport is under the empire�s control. Dropping a vehicle requires the driver to be on the manufacturing ship, and the drop is conducted at the same time as the HART liftoff (you may enter the queue at any time, and cannot be removed even if the ship ownership is lost). They are larger than the transports, but still smaller than the warships. They are relatively unarmed.

Transport ships - These were the original ships that transported the then-colonists. They have since been modified into giant drop pod carriers. The empire that controls this ship may HART drop onto the affected continent, regardless of Dominion or Lock status. They may also drop into the SOI of any non-Capitol or sub-Capitol. Controlling both of the Transports will result in the HART timer on the surface being halved, in addition to the benefits on the two affected continents. The ship itself is armed with a respectable number of turrets, but unlikely to withstand a coordinated assault.

Science Vessels - In the early days of the colonization, these ships were responsible for the early unlocking of Vanu technology. The knowledge in their databanks is invaluable, and when beamed down to the surface can swing the tide in the controlling empire's favor. Controlling a Science ship results in the affected continent having all FLB available through control of bases, even if the bases are not connected via the Lattice (i.e. � on Forseral, even if Caer was hacked/down Ogma, Eadon and Anu would still receive Bel�s FLB). Generator destruction will result in that FLB being lost as the information cannot be relayed (In the example above, the Interlink benefit would not transfer if Caer was the only empire-controlled Interlink). The continent always counts as having the Tech Plant FLB, even if hacking an enemy vehicle terminal at a non-tech plant. Controlling both science vessels allows AT weapons/vehicles to be acquired from any empire equipment terminal, even Sanctuary. This ship has only a few turrets, and will only be able to repulse the most disorderly of attacks.

Warships - The protection of the early days, the two warships that arrived with the colonization ships are still some of the most powerful weapons in the system. They are also the largest. Maintaining control of one gives the controlling empire access to advanced space weapons from their Dock and Fighter Bases and also a CR5 on the bridge may execute one "free" OS per hour. That is an empire wide 1 hour, so multiple CR5s will not be able to use it. The hour still applies even if the ship is captured by multiple empires over the course of that time. Controlling both Warships allows the space fighters to be used on the surface. These ships are extremely heavily armed, and if properly crewed will destroy all but the most dedicated assaults.

The Satellite stations are scattered somewhat randomly, and there are roughly 4 of each type. Their functions are as follows (Note: All stations include 2 Spawn tubes and 1 Equipment terminal):

Gun platforms - Defensive emplacements. They have a turret above and below as well as a medium hangar terminal.

Sensor Station - Unarmed. Control reveals all enemy ships (not EVA suits) in radar range so long as the friendly sensor station is the closest such station (i.e. - flying closer to an enemy ship or station will lose this benefit). Has light hangar facility.

Dock - Four turrets in a ring. They traverse enough to cover above and below, but not directly above and below station. Includes repair platform and 2 medium hangars. The Docks are the only place outside of the Orbital Bases to get a Repair ship.

Fighter Base (only 2 of these) - 2 Turrets, space repair platform, heavy ship terminal.

[Krinsath]

NEW CERTIFICATIONS:

Extra-Vehicular Access (EVA) Suit - An attempt at making a middle ground between MAXes and Rexo soldiers, it was found to be too weak to be used where a MAX suit was, but too bulky to replace the Rexo as a viable surface armor and so the concept was initially shelved. However, the nature of the armor makes it ideal for space travel with a minimum of modification. Equipped with thrusters and magnetic boots (activated as a special ability, will make the EVA �attach� to any nearby object that is not a spacecraft), the EVA allows full travel in space for an individual soldier. The EVA has 300 armor points and has armor absorption similar to the Rexo. If reduced to zero armor, they lose the benefits of being able to be out in the vacuum until repaired. The suit includes 2 Rifle slots, but only 1 pistol slot, which can only be occupied by grenades and REKs, no Medical Applicators or BANKs or pistols (modifying such small weapons to be used by the heavier EVA suit was deemed a waste of resources by the military commanders of each empire). EVAs CAN carry the "glue gun". The EVA should lose all of it�s armor to a decimator shot, but it should not kill them. Cost: 2 certs.

Starfighter � Allows access to the advanced empire-specific fighters. Cost � 1 cert for those with any Air cert (Mosquito, Air Calvary, Air Support), 2 certs for all others.

NEW VEHICLES

Note on all spacecraft: Unlike the surface, where gravity will draw an unmanned aircraft to the ground and destroy it, bailing/exiting from a spacecraft will leave the ship intact. This in turn makes it possible to badly damage an enemy craft and after the crew has abandoned the vessel, hack the damaged ship and return it to a friendly area for repairs. Some weapons for the EVA will also help hijack enemy spacecraft.

Basic Craft � These weapons are available at all terminals, regardless of controlled ships. The parentheses denote what class of terminal is required to be built at a minimum.

Minion Class Infantry Shuttle (Light) - Medium armor and speed, capable of carrying 1 pilot and 4 passengers. Unarmed, requires escort for long journeys. Available to anyone with a vehicle cert (similar to ANT). It can enter airlocks in same manner as Thunderbird, and sets off Alarms.

Thunderbird Light Fighter (Light) - Agile, one man fighter. Weak armor, Class 1 Laser cannon (in space, the weapons are largely laser based due to the distances involved) which roughly equates to a 20mm cannon. Able to enter air-locks, but deconstructs after doing so (1 way ticket). Cert: Air Cav

Bandit Medium Fighter (Medium) - Bulkier, two man fighter. Medium armor, Class 1 rearward laser cannon (2nd crewman), Dual Class 2 Laser Cannons (25mm equivalent) forward firing for pilot. Able to enter air-locks. Cert: Ground Transport

Salvation Repair Craft (Medium + Dock or Orbital Base) - Light armor, unarmed. Can dock at air-locks (similar mechanism to ANT deploy), contributing repair points until drained (see hulked ships) when it deconstructs. Cert: Engineering

Damocles Defense Ship � Medium armor, one Class 1 cannon mounted on top facing turret (controlled in a manner similar to a Lightning). Carries VDUs (Versatile Deployable Units, see New Weapons) and can deploy them into space. Cert: CE

Advanced Craft � These craft, in addition to the terminal required, will also require the control of a warship or being at your empire�s orbital base. Unless otherwise indicated, these are common pool.

Typhoon Heavy Bomber (Medium) - four man bomber. Pilot (no weapons), front gunner (Class 2 cannon), Rear gunner (Class 1 Cannon), "bomber" (Immolator Missile Rack). Fairly thick armor, 2x larger than the Bandit. Cert: Air Support

Mauler Heavy Transport (Heavy) - Massive aircraft, capable of transporting 15 troops (1 Pilot, 4 Gunners, 6 Infantry and 4 MAXes/EVAs). Rearward firing Class 2 Cannon, two side mounted Class 3 (35mm equivalent) and a Turbolaser turret on top with fixed firing arc (150mm equivalent...power offset by need for coordination between gunner and pilot). When docked to an airlock, functions as a spawn point w/equipment terminal at the end of the assault tube (players will spawn in the airlock, mechanism similar to AMS). When a Mauler is docked to an air-lock, no further ships may enter or leave that air-lock until the Mauler is destroyed or undeploys. Mauler is hackable when docked. Cert: Ground Support

Stiletto Special Operations Craft (Medium) - Representing the pinnacle of stealth technology, this 3 man craft is jet black (only sign it's there will be the blinking out of stars as it passes by, and the engines if directly behind it) and invisible to all radar. Lightly armored, with medium speed and no weapons, the Stiletto can dock with an air-lock (same manner as the Thunderbird) without setting off an alarm. This craft is purpose built for inserting sabotage teams onto enemy ships and stations, but is more advanced because of it. Cert: Infiltration Suit

Brigand Medium Fighter (Medium, Terran Republic) � Average sized fighter, slightly larger than the Reaver. Armor slightly better than the Bandit Fighter (the template of this upgrade, the design will be noticeably different to prevent confusion). Rearward gun removed; replaced by dual forward firing Hellstrike launchers (see New Weapons). Pilot retains forward firing guns. Hellstrikes are mounted on independent turrets, so a limited amount of separate targeting is possible. Can enter airlocks.

Conqueror Heavy Fighter (Heavy, New Conglomerate) � A large fighter, � the size of the Mauler. Heavy armor, 3 crew. Weaponry is a forward firing dual Class 3 Turret and a forward firing Heavy Gauss Cannon (separate gunners, pilot has no weapon). These will be less common than the enemy fighters since they require a heavy platform, but hopefully the increased armor and weaponry will be an adequate tradeoff. Cannot enter airlocks on Science Vessels or Platforms.

Nebula Medium Fighter (Medium, Vanu Sovereignty) � Longer than most fighters which a much sleeker appearance. Reflective materials similar to the caverns in Core Combat (no real point to that other than to look techy). Wickedly agile fighter, more so than the Mosquito if possible. Pilot and gunner, gunner has tri-mounted Class 2 cannons on a turret. When traveling at 50% of speed, will not appear on radar, and hence will not be auto-targeted by platforms or ships. Can enter airlocks.

[oddfish]

and i'm guessing the addition of smaller capital ships once we find an efficient way of incorporating them?

i hate to keep reasserting and interjecting this concept, but, i just think it'll add more variety, excitement, and dimension to space combat so it's more than just ground combat in space.

[Krinsath]

GAMEPLAY/SHIP LAYOUT


Each ship has six separate objectives that must be held for control of that ship to belong to a given empire. All have 5 minute hack timers (ship boarding is fast and furious). They are:

1) Bridge - Control of the bridge will determine dominion of the ship. Only assailable if at least one of the other two spawn points is held by the attacking empire.
2) Engines - If the side controlling the engines does not have Dominion, the spawn time for the controlling factions get a 5s spawn penalty (i.e. � The TR control the bridge but the VS have taken control of the engines. TR spawns on the ship will now be 5s longer than usual as a result). Destroying the engines will cause the gravity to fail, posing movement problems for non-EVAs (the same effect as moving in the vacuum without the lighter armors dying).
3) Sensor Array - If the Sensor Array is lost, radar will no longer display incoming enemy craft and the turrets will no longer auto-fire. Alerts will not sound for intrusions, only for damage to critical areas or hacks.
4) Hangar Bay - Contains the launch terminals for the ship. Only usable by the ship-controlling faction. Science ships have Light terminals, Transports and Manufacturing ships have mediums and Warships have heavy.
5) Reactor Core - If this is destroyed, the ship will be on very dim red emergency lights (VERY dim). Dominion ownership will cause the automated spitfires on the inside to fire at enemies.
6) Security/Armory - One of three spawn points. Required to assault the bridge. Dominion control will seal any blast doors on the ship. MAXes are only available from this spawn point.

All six areas must be functional for the ship benefits to apply to the surface. Spawn points are the Bridge, Security and Hangar Bay.

"Hulking" a ship is accomplished by destroying four of the six vital areas. When a ship is hulked, it decompresses killing all non-EVAs and non-MAXes, rendering the turrets unusable and the remaining equipment is destroyed. No spawning is possible and the ship reverts to a neutral state. Engineers cannot repair the areas once a ship has been hulked until they bring in repair ships. It takes three repair ships docking to bring the ship into an internally repairable state. After the third ship has docked, the terminals may be hacked and repaired via normal means. Until 4 critical systems are brought online, hulked ships are treated as entirely vacuum and only accessible to EVA suits (making this a critical cert for the Space Combat Expansion).

The ships themselves are a mass of corridors and rooms, very maze-like. At random intervals there are sentry guns of roughly Spitfire class that will fire at all enemy soldiers. Destroyed sentry guns may be repaired as usual. Blast doors are at key choke points and block any further access to the area of the ship. They include two integrated sentry guns that will fire at the same target. The door and two turrets are one entity for the purposes of damage and repair. The doors can be destroyed (armor on a par with a Vanguard) and will open, and they can also be hacked by anyone with at least basic hacking. A hacked blast door will cease firing and open for 20 seconds, at which point its normal operation resumes. Sentry guns fire at the heaviest armor first (i.e. � MAX, EVA, Rexo, Agile, Standard, Infiltrator�note that Infiltrators will only be fired on if the Sensor Array is up and the Sensor Shield implant is not active).

The fighting is truly claustrophobic, with traps and ambushes being the order of the day. The boarding action will literally be a room by room and hallway by hallway battle to the critical areas. The size of the ship depends on the type. A science vessel is roughly the size of a base, but one level and stretched. The Transports are two levels, but about the same overall size as the Science ships with lots of big cargo bays. Manufacturing ships are one level, with a large, long corridor (wide enough for a few tanks) that connects the Reactor, Engine and Hangar bay to the Bridge, Security and Sensor array (the old manufacturing floor). There are ground vehicle pads at either end and stacks of boxes and equipment. The only ship where ground vehicles actually serve a purpose. The Warships are monstrous, with three different decks and each deck about the size of the science vessel. Zipline like technology and loading ramps provide access between the three levels.

The ships are accessible via airlocks, which are of varying number depending on ship class. Science vessels have 2 airlocks, Transports/Manufacturing 4 and Warships 6. These are represented by force fields, color coded to the ship-controlling faction. Ships that have the ability indicated can directly enter the airlock, Maulers and Salvation ships can dock with them (for a Salvation to dock, the bridge must be under friendly control and not hacked). Heavy fighters cannot enter Science or Transport ships, but they can land inside of the Warship�s hangar bay provided no Mauler is blocking access. For the types of ships that cannot enter an airlock, the crews can bail out near an air lock and attempt to get in, but this will not be a sure thing. Again, a Mauler docked to an airlock completely blocks access to all other forces, friendly and enemy. Alarms will sound on the ship the moment an air-lock is breached by an enemy ship or docked with by a Mauler. Stilettos will not set off the alarms.

Alarms function as red siren lights (similar to the surface generator down lights) and will continue for one minute past the last intrusion. If any part of the ship is under hack, the lights will stay on.

The Stations are simple layouts with a single control point and a few hallways plus a reactor. The battles for these are mainly outside, once inside there's very little room to force an attacker back. The Stations have a 3 minute hack timer to allow response forces from the nearest base/ship to be mustered. Stations have 1 airlock, but Maulers cannot dock at them as a spawn point, only to disgorge their carried troops into the station (smaller airlocks than ships, which are what the Mauler is designed to attack). If the reactor is destroyed, the link in the Defense Grid is lost (attacks cannot flow through that station�s link until the reactor is repaired).

Orbital bases have 3 Airlocks, which are empire specific shielded like the old sanctuary warpgates. All aircraft are permitted to fly into the Orbital base's airlock (which is really more like a hangar bay on the bases and Warships).

LATTICE (or DEFENSE GRID)

For lack of a better term, there is a Lattice in space. The Orbital bases are linked to the Stations, which in turn are linked to each other and to ships. This forms a defense grid of sorts and no hacks can be placed on a ship until the defense net as been breached. Once the ship can be hacked, any of the five non-bridge structures are eligible targets, so a boarding action can begin anywhere. Crews stationed in an airlock will of course be in the best position to repulse an attempted assault.

TERRAIN

Randomly scattered throughout the playfield are asteroid belts and junk fields. For game purposes, they are roughly equivalent; the only difference is one looks like rocks, the other like scraps of discarded ships. They are three dimensional fields and should contain a large amount of hiding places and restrict movement to specific avenues where possible. Stations are often in and around asteroid fields while ships tend to be closer to the junk fields. Made of the same materials as the trees on the surface, none of the terrain is destroyable. Scientists are still trying to duplicate those materials for use in the war. It is possible to �land� on the terrain where appropriately shaped (i.e. � landing on the corner of an asteroid won�t work too well, but landing on a sheet of hull plating will). When landed, a small life support bubble is projected by the spacecraft that allows a pilot/gunner to leave and conduct repairs. The bubble extends approximately 3m around the craft.

HACKING ENEMY SPACECRAFT

Slight departure from standard PS fare, anyone with a hacking cert can jack a spacecraft. Basic hacking will cause the paint scheme to switch as normal but Advanced Hacking can cause (at the hacker�s discretion) the ship to retain the enemy color scheme. They will still show as enemy to anyone looking at them, but will not appear on radar as enemy to any auto-fire equipment (meaning that you can still see the red name over the top, but no auto-fire turrets or defenses will fire on them unless attacked first). Conversely, flying to a friendly base is complicated as the friendly auto-fires (including mines) WILL detect you as an enemy and begin firing. A one-time switch to the controlling Empire�s color scheme (think of this more as changing the IFF beacon) is allowed in the Vehicle status menu.

POWER-DOWN

An ability of all spacecraft, the ship can turn off all reactors and engines (2 second timer), appearing invisible to radar, but still viewable by the naked eye. After a 5 second restart period, the ship will function normally and appear on radar. Useful for asteroid ambushes.

[Krinsath]

NEW WEAPONS

In addition to the previously mentioned Laser cannons which have similar performance to weapons on the surface, the following new weapons. Keep in mind when considering damage; most of the targets are aircraft-type armor, and therefore not very strong overall:

Infantry Weapons

Ravager Anti-Fighter Weapon � An EMP based weapon, it interferes with the functioning of small ships systems. In its primary fire mode, it will act as a Jammer grenade and stop all weapons from firing. In its secondary mode, it will inflict damage on the crew directly (damaging the life support systems). Note: The Ravager�s primary will affect ship�s turrets, the secondary will not. One Ravager on their own will probably not be that big of a threat, but in groups they will be able to kill the crew of a vessel (damage to crew varies with the amount of armor�the bigger the ship, the better shielded against such attacks it is). The vessel can then be hacked and crewed by friendly pilots (Imagine an asteroid belt that�s on an approach to an enemy ship. A convoy forms up to attack a nearby station. As they go through the belt, a squad of 10 EVAs attack them, wiping out the crews. A Mauler then comes out and drops off pilots and crew for the newly acquired fighters which then allows them to attack the enemy ship with the strength of a convoy, but with the radar signature of one Mauler on the way in). This weapon is only available for use with the EVA, and the EVA cert includes this weapon (really, they�re the only ones that are going to be using an infantry weapon on a spacecraft anyway).

Minotaur Heavy Missile System � EVA weapon, takes the form of a massive missile launcher. The missiles do incredible damage (just shy of 2 decimator hits) and have a clip of 4. The downside is that the Minotaur requires a painted target (with a Laze), meaning that it is only useful against fixed emplacements or docked aircraft (or really AFK people). However, the missile will home in on any painted target in LOS, so one Laze can designate for multiple Minotaur launchers. Accessible to those with the EVA cert and Anti-Vehicle.

Spacecraft/Ship Weapons:

Hellstrike Missile Launcher � a Terran innovation, the Hellstrike fires a number of small rocklet type munitions. A full clip is 50 rocklets and the entire clip can be emptied in the same amount of time as the Reaver�s rockets. Damage about that of a rocklet (oddly enough).

Heavy Gauss Cannon � Fires a massive slug, relying on nothing more than brute force to inflict damage. High speed projectile (think of the Mag�s main gun) but a very slow rate of fire (slower than a Vanguard). Clip is 15 slugs. Damage is roughly equivalent to the 100mm cannon.

Versatile Deployable Units � A similar concept to an �ACE in Space� (nice rhyme, no?) It has the following deploy modes:

1) Sensor Probe � has the dual effect of showing enemy craft while jamming enemy radar (jamming will not work within 200m of an enemy Sensor Station). Deployed in a friendly station SOI will allow the guns to auto-fire at a greater range.
2) Passive Mine � High Damage mine, very difficult to see. Has an effect similar to the current proximity mine on aircraft.
3) Seeker Mines � Waits until an enemy ship is detected on radar and begins tracking it until it collides/explodes. Not as damaging as the Passive Mine. Highly effective deployed behind an asteroid with a Sensor probe in neutral space.

Immolator Missile Rack - Found on the Typhoon heavy bomber, it fires large seeking torpedoes. The target lock must be maintained or the missile will scatter widely and miss or strike non-vital areas. Useful only against Stations, Bases and Ship turrets and docked Maulers (i.e. - big, non-moving targets). Each missile is roughly equivalent to 8 phoenix missiles. Against the lighter turrets, this will be destroyed, and a severe hit to the larger turrets. After tracking the target, the reticule must be on it for 3 seconds before lock is achieved. This means a Typhoon on a bombing run almost has to fly straight and level, opening it up to fire from both its target and any supporting turrets. The trade-off for being able to inflict serious damage in one shot.

Note: The following Turrets can reach the maximum visible range, meaning that if they can see you, they can hit you. The Cone of Fire will prevent them from being too devastating at long range, but will remove the ability to target them from afar with impunity.

Hoplite Anti-Fighter Turret - The most common turret found on ships, it consists of 2 Class 2 laser cannons. It has armor equivalent to a Phalanx on the surface. Mannable from inside of ship/Station.

Legionnaire Anti-Ship Cannon - Highly destructive beam (along lines of Vanguard's gun) but very slow rate of fire. Really only useful against bombers and Maulers, but going to swat any other craft foolish enough to fly in front of it. Very slow traverse speed as well. Heavy armor. Mannable from inside of ship.

Gladius Point Defense Emplacement - Found inside of warships, they guard the corridors with a gun comparable to a stabilized MCG. They are like Ancient Sentry Turrets and mannable by whomever gets there. Creates a base of fire for a corridor battle. However, if you're not careful, you're decimator bait.

As you can see by looking at the weaponry, taking down the turrets on a defended ship or station will be quite difficult, as there are few high caliber assault weapons like the 75mm, 100mm and 150mm like on the surface. Maulers and Typhoons can own stations, but are among the easiest to kill aircraft in space and readily visible on radar at all times.

TURRET LOADOUTS

Manufacturing Ship � 6 Hoplite turrets, 1 Legionnaire

Science Vessel - 12 Hoplite turrets.

Transport - 24 Hoplite Turrets, 4 Legionnaires.

Warship - 36(!!) Hoplite Turrets, 10 Legionnaires (remember these ships are huge).

Given the difference in theoretical sizes, there shouldn't be a situation where a spacecraft is targeted by more than 3 turrets (except the Dock Station). Remember, those Turrets cover above and below, so halve them before trying to figure out spacing.

[Krinsath]

and i'm guessing the addition of smaller capital ships once we find an efficient way of incorporating them?

i hate to keep reasserting and interjecting this concept, but, i just think it'll add more variety, excitement, and dimension to space combat so it's more than just ground combat in space.

More or less. Until such time though, they're being left off the design sheet in favor of more "concrete" concepts.

[oddfish]

gotcha.

[Krinsath]

Read the design sheet and let me know if anything needs to be added/tweaked/removed other than the mini-ships. ;)

[oddfish]

i've read it, and from what i can tell, that there is a pretty damned complete concept.. all it needs now is some uber in depth work, designing, and code and we've got ourselves a space fight. :thumbsup:

[Krinsath]

Sadly, about all the further we can take it is to do concept art and give it to the Devs. :(

Everything past that is up to them, which means not till 2005 or so...unless they just go "OH YES! We NEED to do this!" In which case....MAYBE December. ;)

I'll work on general descriptions of the spacecraft and probably PM those over to you and see what that twisted sunshine brain of yours can come up with.

[oddfish]

I'll work on general descriptions of the spacecraft and probably PM those over to you and see what that twisted sunshine brain of yours can come up with.
;)

[Krinsath]

They're waiting for you.

Any Board Mod/Admin that reads this, is the Private Message Preview button that says "Submit Message" bugged? I just hit the Post Message at the bottom, but if that is bugged someone might like to know. If it was a random glitch, then n/m.

[Krinsath]

So nobody has any new feedback? I know it's a lot to read and digest, but I have to have screwed up something SOMEWHERE.

If I didn't, then damnit get me an application to be a PS Dev. :D

You know you don't want that, so find the flaws with the design. No, the argument about playerbase will not be accepted, as player population is an unknown factor and can go either way. The expansion, if properly done, could bring IN enough players to offset the dilution (as gaming sites review it and go "wow! kick ass!"), or it may strip away and make the surface less fun. Equally likely, so we'll leave it at that for now as you're getting into "what ifs". Pretend Smoke just posted that on In Concept and tear it a new one like you guys do there. :D

Any other comments welcome. :)

[oddfish]

Krins, this idea is so damn good it essentially manages to passify everyone's desires as far as space combat is concerned.. except for those who don't want it at all. which is their oppinion and that's okay. but, i mean, we've touched on every base. time for the devs to take this puppy to the drawing board once i get the designs out and perhaps tweak the mini-capital ship issue.

[Krinsath]

If that really is the case, then I have two requests:

1) Get me the damned concept art back you slackabout artist :) (j/k about the slackabout part) Oh, there's still other things that can be done if there are any other artists that would like to help! Draw a picture, post it here with a caption for what it's for. :)

2) I'll put this up as a web page on my site for easier (less ugly) viewing.

3) Hand me my Dev application. :D

After all that, we may need to go to the *shudder* OF and see what the people there can do to rip it apart (PSU has too many intelligent people for good idea ripping ;))

[GreyFox]

Remember, whoevers doing the Artwork. The Spaceships would need to have thrusters in every direction.

[Incompetent]

Thrusters don't neccessarily have to be represented in the Concept, other then some big ones towards the bow to kill forward momentum, I wouldn't think they would be very big.

[Krinsath]

Yes, thrusters would be mounted all around, but not always the biggest of things. They can be little holes on the aircraft (such as the ones on the nose Star Wars X-Wing) for manuevering and so probably don't need to be shown so much for that aspect (when things are weightless, you don't need to work so hard to change directions).

I *would* like an underhang under the cockpit of each of the spacecraft that glows whenever the ship is decelerating (reverse thrust), but that isn't as needed in the concept art. Since weapons can be mounted more wing-wards (why do they have wings in space? If you control both warships they're usable on the ground...where wings would be a bit useful, hence they have them...and is it just me or do SpecOps guys get warm fuzzy feelings about using Minions to transport more troops than a Lib in a smaller, less detectable package?) it leaves the region under the pilot available for such a mechanism.

Don't think I mentioned the need to include that though, so nice catch guys.