Dopplers Air Hate thread

[Doppler]

Ok i'm just going to toss out a few issues I have and see how many flames I get back. I need to make this clear from the get go, I hate aircraft, i understand their purpose, but i still dont find it very cool when I get rocket spammed by a guy with possibly less then 1/4th the certs i have invested.

I think th main imbalance with airpower as it stands right now is its ease of escape and repair. If a vanguard or a prowler get beaten down below half health. They cant exactly disengage and slip away. Airpower, can hit the boosts, fly back to the nearest air tower, and be ready to go again in under a minuete from barely able to fly.

This ability to resupply and repair so easily is what is seriously breaking the game in favor of airpower. Perhaps if the developers ever carried through on their promise of making watch towers duplicate the same feat for ground vehicles I whould find it more pleasing. This whould especialy be a boon to the skyguard, the vehicle with the most jacked up ammo allocation/loadout. It is just not time effective to deploy skyguards in the field without the dropship center link benefit.

Two additional changes i want to see made are more air defense as standard equipment on bases, and the ability of base autodefenses with interlink benefit of targeting mossies.

[Cryptica]

I like your ideas. I agree that airpower has advantages that need to be looked at and possibly modified. I like the idea of giving towers repair/rearm terminals for ground vehicles. It would help offset the advantage that aircraft get. In my opinion nerfing the aircraft would only make people bitch and whine, whereas taking that advantage away by giving ground vehicles RR terms would prevent most people from complaining. It wouldn't be making anyone weaker, it would be making everyone ELSE stronger. And I'm all for raising the power level of the game. I wanna see nukes!!! Wooooo!!!

[Cauldron Borne]

I play Air on 2 out of 5 of my charas. I, personally, don't find them overpowered. The AA max's can clear the skies rather quickly. My VS AA max, alone kept the skies clean from air for over an hour in one base, didn't die once. Got 30+ kills, and about 60+ reavers running away in terror.

More on Topic: I agree that there should be a RR term on the towers, too. And that the Skygaurd needs an ammo buff.

I do NOT agree that you should take away the mossies' 'steath' ability. You can already see them if they fly over an interlink facility, or a base connected to one. If you let those tower guns hit them, too, it will only be yet another Infiltrator nerf. The VAST majority of Infls use the mossie to get around and do their jobs. If you hurt the mossie, you hurt the cloakers.

[Electrofreak]

Cert Skyguard. Problem = Solved.

Edit: better yet, park a skyguard near a friendly lodestar. Repair / rearm all fricking day.

[Doppler]

I have a skyguard, it is far from satisfactory for the reasons i've noted above, additionaly because the developers are so sold on flak it is a pain in the butt to hit a aircraft thats not standing still, a skyguard cannot do crap to a reaver making diving passes or not directly approeaching.

Cauldron i fail to see how disallowing mossies to hover over bases will hurt cloakers. It will disallow them from just landing in the courtyard yes, but wont affect their ability to hotdrop over bases etc. If there is a battle on and mossies are over the base their most likely straffing targets, not exactly infiltrator territory.

[BadAsh]

I understand your frustration with air power in the game. It can be devastating and very frustrating if precautions in your strategy are not taken. After getting �reavered� by rocket spam one too many times while on foot I dropped a weapon certification and picked up a Mosquito or Sky Guard (I switch up between the two often). You will almost never find me walking on foot unless it�s from the base to the immediate base tower. So by changing my tactics (walking everywhere) you will now find me either in a Mosquito or Sky Guard. All I can say is �Bring your Reaver over now Hero and I�ll teach you the real meaning of spam weaponry�. Besides giving me the advantage in those reaver confrontations this change also saves me a LOT of time in foot travel. I now spend more of my playing time in hot spots in the thick of the action rather than spending much of my time in transit. Even without stray aircraft owning you, Rexo hiking is super lame as is.

I�ve spent much time in aircraft and that experience has taught me that they airpower is fairly balanced IF the enemy bothers to take the counter measures. When in a reaver or mosquito and a VS or NC AA MAX locks on you are dead unless you immediately hit your AB and fly AWAY. If you hesitate you are nearly insta-gibed by these powerful weapons. While in an aircraft any TR AA MAX or Sky Guard that you don�t see will insta-gib you. By the time you start taking damage it�s already too late.

The real problem with air craft is that for some reason not enough people want to get AA weaponry. AA weapons are in the game and are very effective. I don�t really see it as a problem with aircraft being too powerful. What I see as a problem is when your entire squad or platoon can�t field one single AA weapon. All it takes is a handful of AA MAX units stationed in a base to stop an entire Zerg of enemy aircraft.

One of my most satisfying killing sprees in the game came with my VS AA MAX. I was guarding the rooftop of an Air Tower and just spanked enemy aircraft that were chasing friendly aircraft back to the tower. In about 1.5 hours I racked up 73 reaver/mosquito kills and got 4 liberators to boot.

In summary my point is if you don�t like getting killed �OBA� (Owned by Air) then get an AA vehicle or MAX and get some payback!

Some basic AA tricks that I find to be VERY effective:

1. Don�t position yourself where you can easily be seen. You want to be undetected until you attack. By then it�s usually too late for them to AB away.

2. Don�t attack until your prey is close enough to kill. I can�t tell you how many times while in my reaver I get a lock on warning from a VS/NC MAX that is too far away. He locks on and let�s loose, but I have plenty of time to turn and AB the hell outa Dodge. If he had waited until I was closer or preoccupied�

3. As hinted at above, wait until your prey is engaging a target and preoccupied before firing if possible. Typically if you lock a Reaver just as he starts firing a load of rockets he will try and finish the clip before reacting to your lock. This is a fatal error that most (guessing 90% reaver pilots) make.

[Peacemaker]

I enjoy flying and as anyone here who I have played with knows my prefered air to ground weapon is the Mosquito. The Reaver rockets on infantry are just a waste. I prefer to use the reaver as a fighter except when there are AMSs, Tanks, or LARGE infantry groups. Even when using the reaver unless im cleaning up a battle field I dont use rockets on infantry, just the 20mms. My best suggestion, mount the 20mm center line and make rockets alot less effective on infantry and more effective on tanks, but lower the max you can carry (reduce the box to twelve rockets).

[drsomewhere]

/agree
center lined 20 mm cannon would stop reaver rocket spam. Right now hitting infantry with the 20 mm is quite innefective

[Rbstr]

I enjoy flying and as anyone here who I have played with knows my prefered air to ground weapon is the Mosquito. The Reaver rockets on infantry are just a waste. I prefer to use the reaver as a fighter except when there are AMSs, Tanks, or LARGE infantry groups. Even when using the reaver unless im cleaning up a battle field I dont use rockets on infantry, just the 20mms. My best suggestion, mount the 20mm center line and make rockets alot less effective on infantry and more effective on tanks, but lower the max you can carry (reduce the box to twelve rockets).

hell fucking yeah! make the clip size 12, and let the new rockets do enought damage to take a lightning/buggy in one pass, but not only enogth AI to take one Agile and make the 20mm more accurate, that way we just made the reaver AV and now you only have to worry about libs

[Onizuka-GTO]

I just wish there was at leased one useful AA weaponary that Vanu infantry can have. Sure we have the Lancer but its useless compared with the Striker and Phoenix. Sure the Phoenix is slow but at leased it ca nguide itself to the target, and it scares them away, and if they do hit it does much more damaged then the oversize laser pointer....as for the striker, it's almost perfect except of unable to lock-on to target near or on buildings. At leased give the Vanu a single shot disposable, lock-on AA only launcher would be something.

[Peacemaker]

Actualy,

I am dead scared of lancers. They are by far the hardest thing to dodge. There is zero warning. Very accurate. Scares me into thinking there is a magrider around. Of all the AV weapons the lancer scares me the most, striker the least (omg so easy to loose). THe phnx is in the middle, just so many people use the damn things. Lancers are the best AA infantry have. The others have a comparitivly limited range, the lancer can reach out and tap me several hundred yards away. In a face off, if I know where they are I can kill a few lancers, but the second they get the drop on me I am flying back to base for a quick repair. Just to tell you, I have flown for the NC and the TR. The striker is a POS against aircraft if you know how to fly. Its sooooo easy to dodge it.

PS why does doppler always title his threads as "Doppler's ______ Thread?" I mean it tells you who made the thread right under it.

[WritheNC]

Hah, so that's what happens if you hit quick reply by accident!

I hate aircraft, i understand their purpose, but i still dont find it very cool when I get rocket spammed by a guy with possibly less then 1/4th the certs i have invested.

The devs have stated more cert points will not and are not there to make you more powerful, just give you more choices. I have Rexo, MA, AV, MED, ENG. 14 certs. Any vehicle cert worth 3 points or more will almost certainly own me.

I think th main imbalance with airpower as it stands right now is its ease of escape and repair. If a vanguard or a prowler get beaten down below half health. They cant exactly disengage and slip away. Airpower, can hit the boosts, fly back to the nearest air tower, and be ready to go again in under a minuete from barely able to fly.

That is the whole point, unfortunately. Aircraft get damaged very quickly, and if you're not good, you'll be spending a lot of time at the air tower, or in front of the vehicle terminal waiting for the timer to expire. Air Cavalry is by design a fast response, lightning strike certification. As for tanks, they are the opposite, but they and aircraft rely on each other.

This ability to resupply and repair so easily is what is seriously breaking the game in favor of airpower.

You'd have to elaborate, since I don't see how the game is really breaking from it. Aircraft can't just fly willy-nilly over any base without molestation.

Perhaps if the developers ever carried through on their promise of making watch towers duplicate the same feat for ground vehicles I whould find it more pleasing.

I agree.

This whould especialy be a boon to the skyguard, the vehicle with the most jacked up ammo allocation/loadout. It is just not time effective to deploy skyguards in the field without the dropship center link benefit.

A good skyguard gunner and driver can clear all the air cavalry around a base in 2 minutes or less. Keep clearing them out, and most aicraft look for a greener patch of grass to fight over.

I have a skyguard, it is far from satisfactory for the reasons i've noted above, additionaly because the developers are so sold on flak it is a pain in the butt to hit a aircraft thats not standing still, a skyguard cannot do crap to a reaver making diving passes or not directly approeaching.

I'll gun for you sometime. Just lead your target more.

I just wish there was at leased one useful AA weaponary that Vanu infantry can have.

The starfire is powerful enough to compensate for that. They turn faster and walk faster than other maxes, and do 300 damage per second to aircraft. Sparrow and burster do 150 damage per second. Only a locked down burster can match the Starfire's dps. In fact, VS have got to be the most god-awful empire to fly against. The Magrider is an air cavalry's nightmare, and the Starfire is the best aa max.


I think aircraft is pretty balanced.

[Rbstr]

Mags and lancers do huge damge to AA, tahts it why we try to only engage mags in groups that mag gun can take a reaver down in 3 hits, and its super accurate

[drsomewhere]

I just wish there was at leased one useful AA weaponary that Vanu infantry can have. Sure we have the Lancer but its useless compared with the Striker and Phoenix. Sure the Phoenix is slow but at leased it ca nguide itself to the target, and it scares them away, and if they do hit it does much more damaged then the oversize laser pointer....as for the striker, it's almost perfect except of unable to lock-on to target near or on buildings. At leased give the Vanu a single shot disposable, lock-on AA only launcher would be something.

sadly enough, i was shot down by a lancer while hovering in my mosquito. I killed the guy shooting me as i went down however

[DeadTeddy]

a good way to get rid of reavers would be to simply make their rockets capable of locking on to other reavers and only other reavers. it will make surviving in the skies a much bigger task.
mossies are stealth aircraft so the missiles can't lock on and big planes have counter measures. now you even have an explanation.

yeah, it's a dumb idea but I guarantee those reavers won't be hovering around shooting infantry anymore when they know the moment they are at less then full speed a missile can bite them in the ass.

[Cryptica]

I just wish there was at leased one useful AA weaponary that Vanu infantry can have.

Dude...I HATE the lancer. I fly over a base and all of a sudden I hear the missle-lock beep and on my radar I have 5 tiny ass blips charging towards me.:flamemad: If I'm lucky I can hit the AB and avoid all but a couple hits. Lancer does not suck (unless you're NC or TR, lol).

[Baneblade]

If
Want to see real pilots = 1
Then
Take out the afterburner = 1
End

[ChewyLSB]

I actually don't mind the skyguard too much. I'm a skyguard driver, and I have a friend who is a great Skyguard gunner. Sure, it runs out of ammo fairly quickly, but I replace all of the machine gun ammo with flak and I have a loadout from an equip term to quickly replace the ammo, even without a dropship center. Skyguards pretty much own any aircraft except for a liberator. Hell, we even get a lot of infantry kills.

[Shalashaska]

Dude...I HATE the lancer. I fly over a base and all of a sudden I hear the missle-lock beep and on my radar I have 5 tiny ass blips charging towards me.:flamemad: If I'm lucky I can hit the AB and avoid all but a couple hits. Lancer does not suck (unless you're NC or TR, lol).

Isn't that the Striker your talking about?

[Doppler]

I just dont buy this logic from some people that your one man vehicle should be able to take out my two man (or in TR case 3) in one pass. I dont see why reavers need more damage from their rockets when their already a very potent weapons platform. Besides in any given base battle airpower will move in and start killing any defenders stuck outside as soon as the turrets are down. I blame this on laughable base defenses versus airpower. The guns dont angle up high enough and arnt accurate enough to engage at signifigant range. I suppose a good portion of my skyguard frustration is the lack of good gunners, i often take my skyguard out, park it in the corner of the base and sweep the skies. The sacrifice i have to make with this is i cant only cover a small percentage of the courtyard area.

[KIAsan]

I don't think this is really a vehicle balance issue. From what I've seen, this is a vehicle Value issue. Basically, ground vehicles are much more valuable than air, in that they require more crew, take longer to man, take longer to get to battle, have to be manually reloaded in most cases, and have no quick way of repair (requiring support of either an engy/lodestar).

Air vehicles are almost disposable. They don't require any support train, can reload instantly (just fly to the nearest air tower), only need one pilot, and can get to battle quickly (obvioulsy the lib has the same crew difficulty, but can still fight with it's 35mm if needed).

If you balance out the certs and cost of maintaining a tank in the field vs a reaver, the reaver is hands down winner in cost verse combat punch. So, whats the solution? Don't think there really is one. I know reavers are balanced by the abundance of AA out there, where as tanks don't really fear AV/AA weapons as much. So, should they add vehicle repair terms to watch towers? Or just take away the air term benefits from air towers? Remains to be seen.

[Incompetent]

We need:

A. Flak Turrets, very simple, install flak turrets or guided missiles in protected areas at bases and towers. (note: must be manned)

B. Flak Pits, again simple, let us dig a hole and put a flak cannon in it. Let people put them where they are needed, and keep them at least marginally hidden so they don't just become free xp for every grunt with an AV weapon and eyes.

C. An Dedicated AA vehicle not made out of paper, something that can role with an armored column and take a beating along with everything else. Make it nice and slow so Skyguards still have a purpose, but make it nice and tough so it can do what they Skyguard can't.

Pick 2

Now, you might be saying, "wow, thats alot of AA, you must really hate fliers," and you'd be right. Mindless reaver whores need to die slow, painful deaths. Reavers pack massive amounts of firepower, are much faster then ground units, are useful as disposable fast transport, are vulnerable to only a very small number of weapons, have more then adequate armor, can withdraw and attack at will, ignore terrain and only require a single crewman. It needs to come at a price, they should be useless if the enemy is ready for them. To put it another way, Cavalry can't play with formations of Pikemen, it just doesn't work that way, the Cav will lose every time. Someone else has to kill the Pikemen and break open the formation. But we can't field any Pikeman, so the Cavalry is walking all over us.

*Note that these don't neccessarilly have to be flak, high ROF weapons such as linked 20mm cannons (that fire at the same time damnit) or AA missiles could also be used (but only if they've got a good LoS, like on top of a base.)

[Doppler]

I am considerably not a fan of the flak system, i think exchanging the skyguards current weapons system for a lock on missile system or a dual linked machine gun system whould be fantastic, additionaly i'd give it a compass pointer in the hud to mark off incoming enemy aircraft from a fairly good click (say SOI sized) and you'd have something thats not just a detterant but a credible weaposn platform. The other solution i foresee is changing the existing skyguard system, minus the machine gun, and load it on a lightning style plaform, then you'd have something sporty, easy to crew and not something the driver just sits there and plays with himself while the gunner kicks out the jams.

[SurrealBeingXX]

it would be cool if the reaver and mosquito could hold 2 people....

[Peacemaker]

Man, People always bitch about us pilots. Your always bitching how you get owned when your walking all alone in the middle of no where. You always bitch when all your AA got shitcaned and the reavers make a sweep. Your always bitching when that reaver sees the AMS and blows it away. The reaver is a very fragile piece of equipment. It doesnt take much to knock it out of the sky and there are many ways to do it. We have AA maxs, AV Weapons (dont bitch about them, they all do a good job), and we have skyguards.

I hear the Vanu bitch about AA. H-O-L-Y SHIT! Look at the god damn magrider, it can snipe a reaver out of the sky with ease. Look at the Starfire max, you can dodge the rockets, still shoot, and hit every time.

I hear the NC bitch about it. You have a missle that you can park yourself in a door with and shoot at me with, but I cant shoot back with out taking alot more fire than normal. Your AA max's missles are supposed to loose tracking when the lock breaks, they follow you an extra SOI and a half! They are also the longest ranged weapon out there.

Now im a Terran pilot but I know the TR bitches. But we got the short end of the stick on this one. The Burster is so rediculously BAD at AA its insane. Only a noob or someoen caught completly off guard dies to it. The Striker is the easiest missle to break its lock (just hit the burners), all the other missles will out run your aircraft if you dont have full burners and are quite far away, it also does very low damage.

Now lets see what people want to see. A skyguard with guided missles? Great... another impossible to loose missle that will be streaking across the sky at a milion miles per hour. Now lets let infantry biuld hard to see flack nests in the middle of no where. Now lets make a skyguard with lots of armor.

Really the points people bring up are insane. Bing a reaver pilot in a hot combat zone is one of the hardest things to do in this game. Second only to the art of cloaking, flying through an enemy infested base covered in AA and getting a few kills may be the hardest thing to do in this game. The amount of AA that I run into is incredible. I cant fly over any base I want and survive. Doppler, Incomp, Sobekus, and Dead Teddy. Why dont you become a near full time reaver pilot like my self. Then bitch to me about ineffective AA measures in this game. Better yet become a Terran Reaver pilot. THEN bitch to me about it. This game is very easy to play. Point and click, the person dies. The same goes for a reaver, a tank, an infantry guy. It all works the same. If you really think its THAT easy to fly a reaver go do it. Fly a reaver by your self (not with a group of 25 like a buncha noobs) and take on AA, enemy aircraft, magriders, AV weapons, and countless small arms fire. I fly because its what I enjoy to do, in this game I get very frustrated sometimes because I could be a million times better than this guy, but he started turning before me, or he is ducking in and out of a force dome, or he is jumping into the air firing guided missles that will blow me out of the sky with a clip.

Need I say more!? :rant:

[Baneblade]

Doppler, Incomp, Sobekus, and Dead Teddy. Why dont you become a near full time reaver pilot like my self. Then bitch to me about ineffective AA measures in this game.
Hi

All I stated is good pilots dont need burners.

I like to think Im an alright Reaver pilot...the ammo patch sure helped with the 20mm hehe...

[Peacemaker]

No one can live long in a hot AA zone with no Burners.

[Baneblade]

Well not with the way the game is now no, although in a really hot zone not much lives with em...hehe...

[drsomewhere]

Being a Terran Reaver Pilot Myself, i totally agree with you Peace. Vanu and NC maxes both have LOCK ON missles that can trash you in a clip. In addition, the Burster sucks awfully and there is no AA coming From TR EVER. You are always alone. Until you have stepped out from behind the protective cover of Superior Max Units, Better Heavy Assault Weapons, Better Vehicles, and Larger Populations...SHaddap!

[WritheNC]

It took me a good 5 months to be pretty good with air cavalry.

Get a reaver, fly out, get shot down by Ahriman Corps/Ash etc. Get a mosquito, get shot down by AC/Ash etc. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Doppler, Incomp, Sobekus, and Dead Teddy. Why dont you become a near full time reaver pilot like my self.

It's really hard to argue about air cav until you've tried it. It's much harder than it looks.

I highly suggest you try it. I was a dedicated infantryman for the first 6 months of the game. Then I got Air Cavalry. Air Cavalry, in one word, is freedom...with a steep cost.

Please try it. Dedicate 1 month to play air cavalry. Try everything pilots do in air cav; attacking infantry and vehicles, other aircraft, stopping LLU runs, flying to back bases and repairing gens/tubes, picking off heavily damaged vehicles etc.

After you play a week in air cav, you can almost feel the hate when ground forces fire at you.

[Doppler]

A reaver on full throttle, (no burn) still outruns every AA projectile in the game, a pinch of afterburners gets you ahead of the sparrow and the quasar rockets. My complaint is not getting blown up when running alone in the wilderness (actualy your less likely to get toasted then because their probly not looking for you) its when their hovering ovr the field of battle with the enar impunity that afterburners and quick repair grants them, AV doesnt cut it against them a skyguard usualy cant stick around because of ammo and enemy vehicle issues, AA max's are nice but their usualy dead in the open field. Yes during sieges you can scare away air for as long as you cna hold the perimiter but the innefectualness of automated defenses against AA means the whole defending force lives and dies by its AA maxs. Face it dude, the pilots life is easy.

[KIAsan]

I for one have been a reaver pilot, I liked it and it was a lot of fun. In fact, being a grunt again is starting to lag, so I may just recert myself one more time.

The point I'm making is not that reaver's don't die (heck, they are the #1 most killed by type in game). The point is they are so cheap (in cost) compared to other comparable weapon systems (things like tanks). Because they are so cheap and don't require an investment other than 4 certs, they are completely disposable assets that pack a very big punch. Given the availability of air towers, now you have a very cheap weapon system that also can repair/rearm very quickly too. This creates a force multiplier (same guy can keep weapons on target far longer for a cheaper price) that other vehicles just can't match.

The fact that you get shot down quickly doesn't balance the issue. Look at the balance sheet a bit. To field one tank (lets use TR for the example). I need a driver with the cert (3 certs). I also need two gunners. I also need either engy cert (3 more certs) or I need a lodestar (3 certs and another person). Without a dropship, everytime I reload, it has to be done manually. So, to field the firepower of one tank, I need at least 6 certs and 3-4 people. Plus, I have to take the time to drive that tank and personnel into battle. Ensure that the logistics support is in place. Fight, then withdraw for repairs/rearm (which takes even more time to drive to a tower and manually repair/rearm). For the reaver, I need one pilot and 4 certs. And thats it. I can quickly fly into battle, hit the target, then just as quickly withdraw to rapidly repair/rearm. If I get killed, I spawn where I need and jump right back into battle. If the tank gets blown, you have to regroup 3 people, get your tank, then drive that long distance once again back to the battle (with the same logistics train).

Solution? It's a tough one. For a start, we should either remove the air tower repair or add vehicle repairs. Just throwing more flak/aa into the game isn't going to solve the problem (other than frustrate the pilot community). But face it folks, anytime you have so many reavers in a battle, that they have time to pick off solitary troops running around, you just have too many reavers. I can tell you as a tanker, I may take a shot at a distant troop in passing, but there is no way I'm going to waste the time of such an expensive weapons system, chasing down one lone grunt in the bush.

[WritheNC]

A reaver on full throttle, (no burn) still outruns every AA projectile in the game

There is no way you have ever tried Air Cavalry if you think this statement is true.

Doppler, please try Air Cav before you bash it.

[BadAsh]

There is no way you have ever tried Air Cavalry if you think this statement is true.

I'll second that.

And add that air dominates because people don't bother with the AA weapons as much as they should...

Let's take the Pepsi challenge... :) I'll spend 2 certs on any AA max and you spend 4 on a Reaver... let's battle and see who wins...

[Doppler]

THat was a typo, it outruns every AV projectile, try it and see, (well cept lancer but thats difrent)

[Doppler]

I love how you try and bring up logical points and it degrades into either an empire hate thread or pilots suddenly bitching about their lack of armor. I think KIA makes a lot of good points.

[Incompetent]

Second only to the art of cloaking, flying through an enemy infested base covered in AA and getting a few kills may be the hardest thing to do in this game.My point is that things like that shouldn't be hard, they should be fucking impossible. Here's an idea, rush into a heavily mined, 'nix infested base with a Lightning and see how long you live, or go pick a fight with a Vanguard. You can't pull that kind of crap with any other unit in a game, why should air be any different. Reavers should be like any other unit, often useful, but there are times when you need to get out and do something else.

How about this, you play a Light Scout character exclusively for a month, and if your still hung up on your Reaver sob story I might listen.

Edit: You want to kick ass out in the field, outside of base SOI's that's fine with me, thats Reaver country. Thats where Reavers should be owning. Fortified installations are not, if a couple Reavers show up at a well defended base, they should get owned. That isn't Reaver country, that's where the Tanks and Infantry play. Now, if you want to argue that there isn't really any reason to be out there, that i can sympathize with. Light units in general suffer because of that. However, that is a different issue.

[Seer]

KIAsan is right about force multipliers. The firepower of the reaver and the rapidity with which it is deployed, re-armed, and repaired make it a force multiplier. Tanks are powerful, but they are slow, harder to replace, harder to repair and ultimately harder to re-arm, if you live that long.

[Baneblade]

The Reaver should have been a multiperson aircraft...

[BadAsh]

KIAsan is right about force multipliers. The firepower of the reaver and the rapidity with which it is deployed, re-armed, and repaired make it a force multiplier. Tanks are powerful, but they are slow, harder to replace, harder to repair and ultimately harder to re-arm, if you live that long.

Everything in this game has it's counter measure...

The reaver is primarily an air to ground attack unit designed to play hell with infantry and vehicles that don't have AA cover. If they have AA cover the reaver is then useless... just take a look at RedX's Prowler Platoons and you will see one way this can be done.... tanks and skyguards own everything... with some of the skyguards getting 40+ reaver kills in one outing...

Assuming skill is even a Mosquito should beat a Reaver in a dog fight with it's superior maneuverability and accurate firepower... once that Mossy gets on your 6 he has to make a mistake to not kill you.

Believe me reavers were my bane in the game for a while until I changed my tactics so as not to be reaver bait... then things changed in a big way... now they don't bother me and usually when I see a reaver I'm thinking "Ohh, free kill!"

And the argument about aircraft being able to easily repair is somewhat valid... just consider that most aircraft get nearly insta-gibed my AA weapons... whereas tanks don't... If you have a good tank driver you can last all night without getting killed... you can't do that in a reaver... one mistake and it's over... The tank is much more forgiving of mistakes so unless you make several in a row OR are completely zerged you will last a LONG time.

I do like to idea of a repair silo on the Gun Towers... that would be cool and fair and FUN... repairing your tank and being cloaker bait sucks...

But for nerfing air power I have to disagree... anything in this game can be a problem if you don't have the appropriate counter measure... Don't believe me? Try fighting an AI max with MA... then try it with AV... Try fighting a tank as infantry or in an assault buggy... then try fighting it with a Liberator... Likewise you can�t expect to walk around in your rexo with HA and not get owned by any reaver or mosquito that may come by and catch you in the open� now if you were walking around in an AA MAX then things would indeed be different�

Rock, Paper, scissors... Keep getting your paper shredded by scissors? Then grab a rock. Complaining that paper should be tuff enough to not be cut up is a moot argument as it would change the tactics of the game. Tactics that are built in for a purpose� there is no one wonder vehicle or unit that can win in every situation. As it should be.

[PhoenixTypeX]

Don't get me wrong I don't hate aircraft I love you guys as you give me something to shoot at! I say that skygaurd should be made a 1 man vehicle where you can drive and gun at the same time. I know thats just me being lazy and I also dont mind doing it the old fashioned way of parking up jumping out and into the gunners seat. You may ask why I don't have another guy gunning as I drive well thats because I don't like people stealing my XP and if I am gunning I know I am looking where I should be and doing what I think is best. The 1 manned skygaurd would make my life a whole lot easier.

[WritheNC]

My point is that things like that shouldn't be hard, they should be fucking impossible.

Actually, it is impossible for most pilots.

Here's an idea, rush into a heavily mined, 'nix infested base with a Lightning and see how long you live, or go pick a fight with a Vanguard.

For one, you should deserve to die for rushing into a minefield with AV all around. As for picking a fight with a vanguard or any tank, you should lose in a lightning. Sure, you both spent 3 points, but the other guy looked for a gunner and is dependant on someone else in a team effort to make your demise. In a lightning you give up the burden of being coordinated with another player to be successful, but you also give up a lot of firepower and armor.




The best counter to Air Cavalry is and will always be Air Cavalry. If you think a pilot's life is so easy, then join us and shoot us down if you can.

[Desperado]

Do you have any idea how hard it is to fly now? wit hthe skillguard, AA maxes, and the AV buff. I'm guessing this "1337 reaver pil0t" that scored 3 kills deserved it, he found you people all huddled together, and genious struck.

Aircraft are fragile, and are one of the few vehicles that reward skilled and smart players.

[Incompetent]

For one, you should deserve to die for rushing into a minefield with AV all around. As for picking a fight with a vanguard or any tank, you should lose in a lightning.Exactly, the same way a Reaver deserves to die for rushing into an AA infested base.

In a lightning you give up the burden of being coordinated with another player to be successful, but you also give up a lot of firepower and armor.And in a Reaver you give up the burden of being coordinated to gain speed, maneuverability, the ability to ignore terrain (when it comes to movement), the ability to quickly rearm and repair without DSC benifits and the ability to withdraw at will while maintaining superior firepower and equivilent armor to similar ground units.

I do think any new AA should maintain about the same level of lethality as the current AA, I just hate the fact that there are so few choices and it ends up being unavailable or left out because of that.

[KIAsan]

Everything in this game has it's counter measure...


Yup, agree 100%. I fully realize just how fragile a reaver is. The thing that has caught my attention is not firepower balance (which is what the devs focus on). It's cost balance. Most time in game I see lots of vehicles, but tanks. Sure, there are some dedicated tank drivers (I used to be one), but looking at the time and cost of fielding a tank vs most other vehicles, and I can now see why tanks are less seen on the battlefield. I agree that nerfing airtowers is not a solution (other than pissing off pilots). Adding vehicle repair pads to some towers is a start. But somehow, there needs to be a better cost vs performance tradeoff on things like tanks.

I think a lot of the complaints about air are because they are by far the cheapest cost per performance of any vehicle out there (as well as being very versatile). True they are more fragile than a tank, however, due to the cheap cost and speed, they are able to sustain more deaths in combat and still be very effective. Combine this with the way some folks use acft (tower hot drops from a mossy come to mind), and you end up with folks getting sick of air.

I really believe, that the devs really do need to add cost as a factor in their balance equations. You see this in other cert catagories as well (the infamous surgile vs rexo is a good example where you need an implant and a 3 point cert to counter an implant). Somehow, they need to factor in the cost associated with a weapon/weapon system in with the firepower/defensive capabilities of that weapon. Untill then, we are going to continue to see threads like this one, surge or a variety of other complaints, not because the item is unbalanced in firepower, but because it is unbalanced in Cost.

[Doppler]

Writhe and Bad's problems is their so busy defending their weapons platform's advantages that they fail to acknowledge anyone elses points. I can understand that to a certain extent but lets look at the facts.

Fact:There are as many aircav vehicles on the battlefield as all other vehicles combined.

Fact:Aircraft are the only vehicle class that can autorepair/rearm without the facility link benefit

Fact:Aircalv makes up 2 of 3 single occupant weapons platforms in the game.

Fact: Without specialy designed AA units aircalv is next to unkillable in battle field conditions, save by other aircraft.

Conjecture:Bases are far weaker against air assault then they are against ground assault by comparison.

Solution:Add vehicle repair/rearm to towers, and perhaps install a flak turret on bases. Simple.

[flypengy]

I'm not sure which server you play on, but I'm a hardcore markov player and I would say air power is fairly balanced on that server.

A couple of the "Facts" you're stating aren't very true. Most of all that bases aren't very capable of aa. I gotta tell you this is false. Auto turrets > reavers, and anyone that has spent any time in a reaver will tell you the same. Sure you can take the time to destroy the turrets, but you will be taking damage from other things (aa maxes, av, whatever). While mosquito does negate the turrets it is so weakly armored that attacking it with regular ammo will cause it to take significant damage quickly.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it is very apparent you have little or no experience with flying. You're trying to compare armor to aircraft which is apples and oranges. Tanks don't have several items in the game that completely cripple them. Put a skyguard around a base and that skyguard is invincible to aircraft (unless overwhelemed or worst gunner ever). AA maxes are very hindering, and while not as capable as a skyguard at detering aircraft they're guaranteed to make them run and think twice about coming back.

And like you said, there is tons of air. Well what is true of one empire is true of the other. For every mosquito/reaver/liberator that the enemy has flying against you, it's likely that you have approximately the same out against them; and while a plane can run from the missiles of an aa max or get out of the los of flak, they can only do so much to out run another aircraft.

I can't be sure if you played before air towers, but I can be quite sure you didn't fly then. Reavers and mosquitos are very lightly armored (Unlike tanks which you're trying to compare to). It was an outrageously mundane and tedious task to rearm and repair a reaver/mosquito every 30 seconds because someone had fired one striker or one pheonix at you. While putting repair silo's on towers to help tanks out (something I don't agree with personally) is a semi logical solution it does not fit in with your original complaint against aircraft. (In other words, regardless if there were repair silo's or not you still would have made this thread).

Also, not to be trivial, but reaver and mosq make 2 of 6 single occupant weapons platforms in this game. (Flail, basilisk, switchblade, and lightning). So I really don't find that to be a valid argument.

[Seer]

flypengy, you appear to have read only the last post in this thread. That air units are fragile and have counters has been addressed by others.

In any case, calling the basilisk and switchblade 'weapons platforms' is laughable and you know it. To a certain extent the same could be said of the mosquito, but I've been wasted by far too many unseen mosquitos to believe that. And as an effective weapons platform the flail requires a spotter and air cover. That is, minimum, three people, though one aa max can cover multiple flails.

Really, as a tank and skyguard driver, I want the same ability to repair and re-arm without having to capture a dropship center.

[BadAsh]

Writhe and Bad's problems is their so busy defending their weapons platform's advantages that they fail to acknowledge anyone elses points. I can understand that to a certain extent but lets look at the facts.

Fair enough opinion. Now, here is my opinion. Some players are so busy defending and making excuses for the flawed character builds they fail to recognize the game�s built in measures and countermeasures.

So as it see it the real problem here is with a player�s failure to adapt to the gaming environment. Rather than admit a flaw in their certification build this player would rather see the game altered to suit his desired build. Players who are not certed to defend against air hate air and want Air Cav nerfed. Players who are not certed against infantry want hate HA and want HA nerfed or even out right removed from the game. Players who like MAX Units hate AV and want it nerfed. Players who hate MAX Units want them nerfed. People who want to play �pure infantry� hate getting mowed or owned by vehicles. And this list can go on and on and on.

The problem is not with reavers, tanks, max units, heavy assault, or decimators. The problem is with individual players who fail to take into account the games built in measures and countermeasures. Like the marines say �Adapt, Overcome, and Conquer!�. That�s pretty much the rule of thumb for PlanetSide.

I had to learn this too. My original heavy grunt build had no vehicles and every weapon you could carry certed. But, I spend too much time returning to terminals for med packs, getting owned by vehicles, and freaking walking everywhere in my rexo. So I had to make adjustments (or continue to get owned by the same things over and over and over). If you hate Air Cal so much then invest a measly 2 certification points and get yourself an AA MAX and spend the time to become proficient with it. If you are unwilling to do that then please stop the whining.

If the game were changed to cater to your desires and allow for free powerful AA weapons, the flak turrets you desire, then that would surely compensate for the flaw in your character build (no AA capability).

But, now what about other character build flaws? Should be we adding 150mm turrets to stop those tanks? How about a long range anti-sniper turret? Or perhaps anti-max turrets in a few interior choke points under/inside the base to help with those pesky AI MAX units?

I hope it�s clear why I believe this is a bad idea.

[flypengy]

Yes... I read his last post and replied to that. Your point?

A one man weapons platform is just that, you can't disqualify anything just because it doesn't suit your definition. I'm pretty sure it was on these very same forums that people argued with me about how under-rated the basilisk is. And telling me that the flail doesn't count because "it requires a spotter" and needs constant air cover is not a very well thought out statement. Of all the "single occupant weapons platforms" in the game I would say that one is undoubtably the most powerful. There is no other weapon/vehicle/feature in this game that can singlehandedly camp a tower (even tanks can't do anywhere near as well as it).

[321]

I think that air vehicles are pretty balanced. Like if a reaver comes or mosquito comes to close to the ground you could easily shoot it down or almost shoot it down with a MCG or lahser and a little bit lower and you could even shoot it with a JH.

[SilverLord]

I'm sorry but Doppler you have totally lost your argument here.

I am a full time Reaver pilot and I know how very hard it is to fly. You have to be constantly aware of the AA presence and many times if you make just one tiny mistake your done and then it's terminal time... About the Reaver being compared to a VanGaurd/Mag/Prowler, that is a ridiculas comment. Like someone said, a mag can snipe you right outta the sky. The VanGaurd has so much armor that if you have a full loadout of rockets, you still don't have enough to kill it. I don't know about flying against the Prowler because I'm TR.

I have also never played as a Burster so I do not know what they are or arn't capable of. I do know, however, that the Starfire can jump and dodge my rockets while it still has the leisure of shooting me while locked on. The Starfires missiles don't chase you for that long but the Sparrows missiles chase you for a long enough time that you have to go to the next base to get them away. So until I get a burster and try it out, I don't know about the AA Max argument.

All this I think has been stated but i'm just getting started into this disscussion.

[Doppler]

I'm not sure which server you play on, but I'm a hardcore markov player and I would say air power is fairly balanced on that server.

I myself am a marcov player, and have been for some time.

A couple of the "Facts" you're stating aren't very true. Most of all that bases aren't very capable of aa. I gotta tell you this is false. Auto turrets > reavers, and anyone that has spent any time in a reaver will tell you the same. Sure you can take the time to destroy the turrets, but you will be taking damage from other things (aa maxes, av, whatever). While mosquito does negate the turrets it is so weakly armored that attacking it with regular ammo will cause it to take significant damage quickly.

First off for everyone who doesnt grasp the distinction between conjecture and fact, (hence why i stated it as such), Fact is something that can be proven, conjecture is something theres evidence to support but is mostly a theory. You have yet to sight any of my facts which arnt true, save the Basilisk/Switchblade thing, as if you consider those to be weapons platforms, you need to spend more time on the ground. The flail is an intresting paradox but i primarily do not consider it a weapons platform as its need to deploy before firing and need of a spotter to be truely effectice.

I'm not trying to be rude, but it is very apparent you have little or no experience with flying. You're trying to compare armor to aircraft which is apples and oranges. Tanks don't have several items in the game that completely cripple them. Put a skyguard around a base and that skyguard is invincible to aircraft (unless overwhelemed or worst gunner ever). AA maxes are very hindering, and while not as capable as a skyguard at detering aircraft they're guaranteed to make them run and think twice about coming back.

Only you guys are trying to compare Aircraft to tanks in terms of weaponry firepower. For one thing tanks have lots of things that "completely" (note the quatations as i dont buy that your completely crippled by any form of AA, you just have to either attack it from behind or get out of its sphere of control, something which your speed helps you to do very well) Tanks and other ground based vechiles have lots stacked against them, Mines being the big one, AV weapons being another (a marginal problem to flirs but much less so then ground vehicles) AV Maxes, etc etc. My conjecture was that it is fair easier to field and upkeep airpower in this game, then it is ground vehicles, which is the complete ooposite from mil doctrine everwhere else.

And like you said, there is tons of air. Well what is true of one empire is true of the other. For every mosquito/reaver/liberator that the enemy has flying against you, it's likely that you have approximately the same out against them; and while a plane can run from the missiles of an aa max or get out of the los of flak, they can only do so much to out run another aircraft.

So you point out that as there is lots of air that somehow validates that air is a balanced platform? Doesnt that kind of prove the other way?

I can't be sure if you played before air towers, but I can be quite sure you didn't fly then. Reavers and mosquitos are very lightly armored (Unlike tanks which you're trying to compare to). It was an outrageously mundane and tedious task to rearm and repair a reaver/mosquito every 30 seconds because someone had fired one striker or one pheonix at you. While putting repair silo's on towers to help tanks out (something I don't agree with personally) is a semi logical solution it does not fit in with your original complaint against aircraft. (In other words, regardless if there were repair silo's or not you still would have made this thread).
So much.....to.....critique....in this paragraph, where to begin. Oh my god, the outragiously tedious task that you had to perform, has to be performed now by lightning, harrasser, heavy buggies, the skyguard, even tanks when they take enough damage or cook off enough ammo. But you oppose giving gorund based vehicles the same benefit, pretty weak if you ask me. I also fail to see how it doesnt fit with my origianal complaint against aircraft, as if you scroll back all the way to the begining of this thread, that was my proposed fix for my major complaint.

Also, not to be trivial, but reaver and mosq make 2 of 6 single occupant weapons platforms in this game. (Flail, basilisk, switchblade, and lightning). So I really don't find that to be a valid argument.

Trivial and weak, see above.

Now to handle the other complaints as succintly as possible.

Silverlord:Why do you feel that your vehicle should be able to single handedly take out tanks, if you want a tank killer aircraft, try the liberator, it takes a good crew but that also balances it against the tanks crew.

Badash, the only guy whos logic makes sense but he's still making some really big assumptioons about me and where i'm coming from here.
I have the following certifications.
Rexo
AV
Advanced Medic
Combat Engie
Heavy Buggy
AA Max/Ground Support

Now assuming i'm not using the ground support cert that day, i have 3 out of 3 certifications capable of really damaging/downing aircraft. I must say i get more then is most likely my fair share of aircraft kills. Reffering back to my original posting you will see my main complaint with aircraft is their ease of repair and rearm as opposed to ground vehicles. Not their power over troops in the field. Yes the fact that base defenses seem mostly impotant to them without AA max's backing them up was a secondary complaint, but my primary argument was that we need ground repair rearm terms. In the ensuing discussion i find it laughable that so many pilots think air calv should be the ala carte cert, and then want sympathy because they occasionaly have to get a new air vehicle. Not a huge problem if you have a tech link as then you can immediatly swithc to your other vehicle (unless you get blown up right off the pad, which happens to all of us every once in a while, although i whould say to ground vehicles more). Trying to pretend that air vehicles suffer some special burden because they have a set of defenses designed against them is more like a testament to their effectiveness, plus i whould much prefer AA max's to mine anyday.

[WritheNC]

Well, two important things.

1. I'm not even going to continue arguing about it until Doppler gets Air Cav for at least a week and sees how it is on the other side! Or, if Doppler has used Air Cav for a week straight or more in recent months(since Feb.), then Doppler, please say so.

2. It has been agreed upon that there are A LOT of aircraft out there every day, so if they made anything else to hinder aircraft, there will probably be more upset people than pleased ones.

[Onizuka-GTO]

I also find it unfair that a single pilot can kill a 2/3 man tank, i mean you invested so much time, got a crew, travelled very slowly to your target, fire off a few rounds. Then a reaver comes by, he attacks you, he would get scared off by a skyguard. Fly off to get repaired after seriously damaging the skyguard or tank. Then we have to move off to find a new place to hide, get out and repair only at that moment the reavers back and healthy and then we get rocket spammed. rinse, dry and repeat. Eventually we all get killed by the reaver, and we might kill that reaver once or twice but he's always back with a new one or fixed one becausw they can use air towers and we can't without the right facilities.

I think it would be a good idea to make the reaver with a two crew, one who can fire the gun only and the second crew can fire the rockets and maybe a lock-on missile? that'll be a good idea, helps balance it out.

[Doppler]

I have an air guy that i play to unwind. Its fun and easy. I fail to see all the stress and jitters you guys seem to think is out there.

[BadAsh]

I also find it unfair that a single pilot can kill a 2/3 man tank, i mean you invested so much time, got a crew, travelled very slowly to your target, fire off a few rounds. Then a reaver comes by, he attacks you, he would get scared off by a skyguard. Fly off to get repaired after seriously damaging the skyguard or tank. Then we have to move off to find a new place to hide, get out and repair only at that moment the reavers back and healthy and then we get rocket spammed. rinse, dry and repeat. Eventually we all get killed by the reaver, and we might kill that reaver once or twice but he's always back with a new one or fixed one becausw they can use air towers and we can't without the right facilities.

I think it would be a good idea to make the reaver with a two crew, one who can fire the gun only and the second crew can fire the rockets and maybe a lock-on missile? that'll be a good idea, helps balance it out.

Sorry for the mini-flame here, but if your tank crew AND skyguard crew are getting owned by 1 reaver pilot I suggest teaching your gunners to AIM or buy them glasses...

Also I noticed you are VANU and the MagRider alone should own that reaver, but with the SG escort you are talking about...

I mean HOLY CRAP if you guys can't take out a reaver with all that firepower...

[BadAsh]

I have an air guy that i play to unwind. Its fun and easy. I fail to see all the stress and jitters you guys seem to think is out there.

Then you would not mind a friendly duel. You and your Reaver and my BR1 VS AA MAX. I mean the most I can do is just wound you and you'll fly off for repairs right? So there should be no problem here right?

Since you "fail to see all the stress and jitters" I figured that I'd give you a little in-game demonstration.

You will either learn that the "lock on warning" means imediately fly away in full AB or you will die nearly instantly time and time again.

[Seer]

Yes... I read his last post and replied to that. Your point?

Well, my point was that you should read the whole thread before responding. If everyone thought like you did then the thread would be doomed to repeat itself with every new person that joined. You must be new to this whole internet thing.

And I said it was funny and surprising to kill people with the basilisk. Not that it was effective. There is a world of difference between the two. I have scored a few kills with it, but nobody has ever killed me with the lisk. It is perfectly acceptable to not call them weapons platforms. A weapons platform exists primarily to deliver firepower to the target. The lisk and switchblade don't--they're primarily for transportation.

To use the flail in battlefield conditions requires more people than are actually sitting in the vehicle. It requires either a spotter or some form of air cover. It is clear that the flail is overpowered in certain extremely specific situations, such as when the enemy doesn't have access to vehicles OR av weapons, but that doesn't really mean anything.

[KIAsan]

And the argument once again returns to cost vs firepower attained. In every case of single crewed ground vehicles, the cost of that vehicle vs the firepower it delivers is at a good ratio. However, the cost of the single crewed air vehicles vs firepower is way off. Simply put, they are too cheap.

To test my hypothesis, I flew my reaver last night for 6 hours, using repair pads/towers, then without. Without the air towers, I had to land, fix the plane, then manually reload the reaver rockets. OMG, I didn't realize how fast those rockets expended. With manual reloading, I spent at lot more time on the ground, thus making the cost associated with operating my reaver on par with the vehicles. Based on that, I am think simply adding vehicle repair pads to ALL towers should do the trick. It's either that, or remove the airtower repair capability. Either of these changes would rebalance this cost factor and eliminate the complaints on the vehicle side of PS (the ground side is another matter).

[Onizuka-GTO]

Also I noticed you are VANU and the MagRider alone should own that reaver, but with the SG escort you are talking about...

I mean HOLY CRAP if you guys can't take out a reaver with all that firepower...

Ah that's true, sorry. I have no complaints of the Magrider being a AA platform, as for anything else, that's debatable. :rolleyes:

Since I've been playing with my alternative TR avatar, and mostly as a prowler driver recently, that situation above has happened. Against one reaver we don't really die (axcept the occasional ones when they catch us repairing) but we do take horrific damaged, and against more then one reaver even with a full prowler crew and a good skyguard crew it's more or less death everytime.

[Peacemaker]

Ah, so with the vanu you dont have many problems. But the second you go terran you start getting pelted. Point proven that people why fight the terrans have absolutly no real challange, all you have to do is keep moving.

[Onizuka-GTO]

But the vanu are suppose to more about, thats why the Magriders are so dammn fast. (it's so annoying!)
I dunno about TR since i've only been playing it for a while but the prowler seem t owork best in a large group of them.
Magriders and Vanguards are quite fine on their own.....
But who ever said prowlers need something boosted to defend itself from Aircrafts for a little longer is right...

[NoSurrender]

yes its easy to kill something with a reaver but, to survive in a reaver and to take on alot more than what most do. That takes skill. I've picked up air cav because most of our pilots are in other games and i die alot. Sure, i get kills but, i watch peace rack them up like fanboys to fanboy Gala event. there is Plenty of AA. Seriously, i see no lack on AA expect with the TR AA max. i went on markov and dicked around with sparrow. I got like 5-6 air kills with not too many reavers flying about in 5-6 minutes.if the devs had to give the whiners(asshats) a treat then i'd just take the ammo off the air pad and make it just repair. Dopper Go back to your cave, im tired of your upsupported bitching.

[drsomewhere]

The supposedly "dual" mounted 12mm chainguns on the prowler are really just one 12 mm gun. However by having a gun on each side the accuacy is garbage. It realy truth it should be two SEPERATE 12 mm's, but it is just one with horrible accuracy. Magriders are Great AA because their main gun fire's in a straight line with no arc (kind of like the Lancer) and takes down a reaver in 3-4 shots.

The Vanguard is better than the prolwer at AA because it has more armor, and has an easier weapons platform to use...
But Terrans have always been at a disadvantage at all aspects of the game, i.e. population, tactics, and technology (with the lone exception of the Cycler) So this isnt news to anyone

[Doppler]

Theres the empire whine factor again.

Edit:ALso he must not remember the godlike striker. Or before pounder and DC got switched around, newb.

[flypengy]

To use the flail in battlefield conditions requires more people than are actually sitting in the vehicle. It requires either a spotter or some form of air cover. It is clear that the flail is overpowered in certain extremely specific situations, such as when the enemy doesn't have access to vehicles OR av weapons, but that doesn't really mean anything.

You people are determined to tell me that the flail requires more than one person which is absoulte nonsense. About everytime you see someone getting massive amounts of kill spam with a flail means that they are able to see their target. Sorry... but you don't even have to use a laze to make the targeting come up, you can simply have the squad leader put a waypoint. The flail is a weapons platform, and the mightiest of them all. You people that say other wise are complete morons.

[Lartnev]

It's certainly devastating, better used with a laser pointer but most of the time it's a single guy, sitting in his flail holding down the trigger until they hit stuff and get lots of xp.

[BadAsh]

You people are determined to tell me that the flail requires more than one person which is absoulte nonsense. About everytime you see someone getting massive amounts of kill spam with a flail means that they are able to see their target. Sorry... but you don't even have to use a laze to make the targeting come up, you can simply have the squad leader put a waypoint. The flail is a weapons platform, and the mightiest of them all. You people that say other wise are complete morons.

I have to echo this opinion of the Flail. My first usage of the Flail was with playing TR on Markov I got a flail and deployed on a hill facing the side of a watch tower that the VS were trying to zerg from. I could very easily shoot inside any of the 3 doors facing me and could shoot to either side of the tower on the ground and murder any troops trying to fire at me from either side.

After about an hour of this camping I had gotten over 275 kills... these kills were cloakers, agiles, rexos, and max units... all are equally easy one shot kills to the flail...

My second use of a Flail I managed to sneek my flail back to a base of ours that had fallen to a Zerg attack. The CY was filled with n00bs standing around for the cap exp so I deployed on a hill overlooking the base and let fly. My first shot killed 13! My attack only lasted about 60 seconds until air craft tore me apart, but in the 60 seconds I got 57 kills, killed the AMS in the CY, and destroyed the vehicle terminal...

What a joke. And some of you are trying to say the flail requires a support team to be effective? You gotta be F**king kidding me.

[drsomewhere]

Theres the empire whine factor again.

Edit:ALso he must not remember the godlike striker. Or before pounder and DC got switched around, newb.

Oh yes, i am a newb for mentioning the inferiority of the TR...I am just saying how VS and NC should check out TR warfare before they complain about how "unfair" the game is towards them...The fact remains that VS and NC do the MOST whining out of the empire's so shaddap. Striker does crap for damage, and all of the maxes are inferior...But then again, why listen to newbish ol' me.

[Lartnev]

I think you just proved his point.

[flypengy]

Oh yes, i am a newb for mentioning the inferiority of the TR...I am just saying how VS and NC should check out TR warfare before they complain about how "unfair" the game is towards them...The fact remains that VS and NC do the MOST whining out of the empire's so shaddap. Striker does crap for damage, and all of the maxes are inferior...But then again, why listen to newbish ol' me.

#1 Striker owns. While I still think that pheonix is the #1 AV, striker is very devestating especially when more than one person is using it at once. Any buff to the striker would just revert it to the incredibly overpowered monstrosity it was before it was nerfed.

#2 TR maxes do suck. I'd have to say that burster is the best close range aa (a locked down burster has a faster ttk than any of the other aa maxes, but it unfortunately requires incredible amounts of leading the further away the aircraf is). The new DC max pretty much blows =/. The new pounder is about on par with the other av maxes I think, haven't used it yet though.

#3 MCG is a great weapon, unfortunately I think it is the absolute worst to use in a zerg compared to the other two ha's.

The three empire's are the most balanced this game has ever been. An empire losing is more likely due to extraneous circumstances (cavern lock, mods, or 3rd empire backhacking). One weapon being more powerful no longer really plays a role in this game anymore, and after the surge nerf, this fact becomes increased even more so.

^^^

If any of that doesn't make sense, my sleep schedule is all messed up so here I am waking up at 5am :(

[ChewyLSB]

I don't think the Striker's that bad. However, I will feel the pain when they don't let you surge with a weapon out anymore, since often I have to surge with the striker to keep up with a vehicle. Oh well. I agree, the MCG isn't the best HA, but I'd rather use it than a Lasher.

[Seer]

What a joke. And some of you are trying to say the flail requires a support team to be effective? You gotta be F**king kidding me.

It is clear that the flail is overpowered in certain extremely specific situations, such as when the enemy doesn't have access to vehicles OR av weapons, but that doesn't really mean anything.

Your killing spree could have been ended if your enemies bothered to field the proper units or even sent a few decimators your way. Judging a weapon's success against zerging, unsupported infantry is just about the worst metric there is. A blind monkey with a hand grenade and a vague idea of how to use it could get kills like that.

Personally, I think the flail is a piece of shit that is useless 90% of the time and overpowered the other 10%--but to use it in battlefield conditions requires, EVEN IN SIGHT DISTANCE, air cover. If your enemy has libs or reavers in the sky, say goodbye to your flail. If your enemy has tanks out and you don't, say goodbye to your flail. That happens a lot since the flail and the tank share the same cert and when one side has access to the flails, they tend to be light on tanks. It's actually pretty crippling! I'm sure you've seen it happen before. That's because the flail is an extremely limited weapon that is very powerful in a handful of situations while tanks are moderately powerful in a wide range of them. Likewise reavers.

So in a sense your ability to operate the flail depends on your team's ability to keep enemy aircraft out of the sky and enemy tanks away from you, or, as in the case you mentioned, OpFor's inability to field them. Paradoxically enough, fielding flails can actually reduce a force's chance for success when they have an enemy seriously capable of defeating them. The old 'flail on the hill' is just about the most annoying opportunist in the game, just above spawn camper. He isn't actually contributing anything--they battle was already over if he can do that, because there's no enemy air power, and no enemy ground power, and they can't field enough av infantry to kill a huge immobile target less than 200 meters away. Don't think you can operate in a vacuum with that thing.

flypengy: Nobody said the flail wasn't a weapons platform. I said it wasn't a one-man weapons platform. In any case, the flail is also overpowered.

[Doppler]

I wish i'd had the foresight to append a pole to this thrread, afte rall there's been some very heated debate but I think the majority opinion are: 1) There needs to be rearm pads for ground vehicles. 2) Reavers and other aircraft delivery functionality disporportionate to the other vehicles. Item one needs something done about it, item 2 might. But i personnaly whould be happy just giving bases more AA abilities.

[Rbstr]

Oh yes, i am a newb for mentioning the inferiority of the TR...I am just saying how VS and NC should check out TR warfare before they complain about how "unfair" the game is towards them...The fact remains that VS and NC do the MOST whining out of the empire's so shaddap. Striker does crap for damage, and all of the maxes are inferior...But then again, why listen to newbish ol' me.

I'm sorry but recently my outfit picked up some TR alt's on Emerald and I must say teh MCG racked me up more damage(not killss because we all had them) than i ever did with the JH back whan i had it(i hate HA with a passion but i felt i shouldn't knock it before i had tried it) i even took out a liberator that decided to fly low. i absolutely fear Locked down pounders as a reaver pilot it can take you as fast as a Skyguard. But for some reason they are to dumb to lock down in safe places like next to wall in Cortyards and behind hills, if a person doesn't know a max is there they won't look

[KIAsan]

I'm sorry but recently my outfit picked up some TR alt's on Emerald and I must say teh MCG racked me up more damage(not killss because we all had them) than i ever did with the JH back whan i had it(i hate HA with a passion but i felt i shouldn't knock it before i had tried it) i even took out a liberator that decided to fly low. i absolutely fear Locked down pounders as a reaver pilot it can take you as fast as a Skyguard. But for some reason they are to dumb to lock down in safe places like next to wall in Cortyards and behind hills, if a person doesn't know a max is there they won't look

The burster is the AA max. If you survived long locked down outside, then you were incredibly lucky, or their wasn't much enemy activity. Try doing that when you see a large/huge/massive tag on the base and you can count your survival in seconds. Nothing like getting hit by 4 pheonix misses at the exact same time, lots of overkill.

If you want mad kills in a max, jump into the NC scat max. It is hands down the best killer of all the maxes indoors. For outdoor kills, VS AA (starfire) is the king of kills outdoors (with the NC sparrow a very close second).

As to your comments over MCG/JH, if your noticing a large difference between the two weapons, then your not using one of them properly. MCG/JH are both extremely good killers, depending on the situation. If your using the JH like a MCG, yeah your kills will suffer.

As to other complaints about the striker, come on folks, each empires AV has it's strengths AND weaknesses. If you only focus on one's strengths, and compare it to the other's weakness, of course it will look over powered. If, however, you compare the total picture, you will see that no single AV is better than another AV.

Anyway, figured this would get derailed into a general balance whine/flame war/I got the bigger d!(k contest. I do think that adding vehicle pads would be a step in the right direction, but not the 100% solution.

[flypengy]

As to other complaints about the striker, come on folks, each empires AV has it's strengths AND weaknesses. If you only focus on one's strengths, and compare it to the other's weakness, of course it will look over powered. If, however, you compare the total picture, you will see that no single AV is better than another AV.

I agree with everything but this. Lancer is undoubtably the worst AV. Stiker and pheonix have their strengths (pheonix is safe to use from a distance while striker has the best close range aa capabilities). The lancer can't really lay claim to either of these... Move around with a lancer (like with a striker) and you're cof will bloom to insane proportions. And while you can fire from relative safety like with the pheonix, you still expose yourself far more than you would have to than with the pheonix.

The only way I'd say lancer is better is 1v1 I think the lancer of all the av's would have the best ttk (I can't say for sure however).

Most of all... no splash damage :(

[ChewyLSB]

I've used all of the AV weapons extensively (excluding the Pheonix, I don't have an NC character high enough to use it, so I've only been able to loot it) and I have to say that the Lancer isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. The Lancer is really good for long range, so the faster the vehicle is moving, the harder it is to use. So I would have to say the Lancer and the Striker are on par with each other.

[AltaEgo]

Air Cavalry are taken down with great ease by any empires AA Max. So I think it is worth them being able to repair at a nearby airtower to have a second strike. Because if an AA MAX gets hold of them; they wont be going to any Air Tower.

[flypengy]

I've used them all extensively too ;)

Even played with the lancer back when it could be used as a ghetto sniper. (Deleted my NC and played VS for a month before begging them to let me have my nc back). I stand by my statement that the lancer is the weakest of the av's. It does fill the "adaptability" roll the VS are suppose to play, but after driving a mag, driving a prowler (what I've been spending my time doing lately), and driving a vanguard I'm convinced that VS just have the weakest AV. Especially against flying units.

When playing my NC/TR I don't use reaver against VS unless I have aa max's to deal with( I don't have to constantly run back for more rockets with the mosquito like I do with the reaver). As a matter of fact, when flying, I'm more concerned with pulsar's than I am with lancers. I know with lancers after the second shot they're going to miss (I'll be high-tailing it out of there), but a pulsar can keep hitting you.

[Ait'al]

I havent read this thread yet but the problem isnt anti air. Its the lack of people having it or something else to keep them at bay. There are few if any pilots who stay, or can, for long if you fire something that can hurt them. Or alot of times something that cant. ITs not that easy to his stuff with a plane. its like being on the ground but people see you more and you arent as still when you fire. And the mosquito doesnt do that much damage unless its a trooper. The only way those damn reavers can do that is if the idiots around you arent watching to attack them or scare them off. Which happens way to much. :ugh: Its not always anti air that people dont have. Its usually any of hte main support roles, hacking, med, and in this case anti vehicle weapons alot and usually anti max weapons for the VS when there around for some reason. The guy who has a lasher usually isnt around when the damn max is ripping up the 50 people outside the base who all have pulsars or something.

[flypengy]

^^^

Cries for you cause you wasted money on 9800XT :'(

[Ait'al]

I use alot of large screen resolutions. And i use high setting alot and bought all graphic intense games. i get lots of use out of it. 8)

[flypengy]

Nothing out yet that requires 250. It's over kill for even HL2 (which is suppose to be the up and coming front runner of gfx). Soon, very soon in fact, you'll be glad you have it :p

[Ait'al]

just need an overclocking program to overclock the crappy processor and ram i have for the moment. Anyone have a link to an overclocking program. No one in the tech forum is giving me one.