ANTs and NTU Silos

[afex]

short version:

what the fuck? this is gay.

1. nobody will want to do it
2. bases will always fall to neutral
3. attackers win (by either force, or by defenders giving up b/c of "wtf, this team sucks" mentality).
-----------------------------------------------
long version:

ok, i have some not-so-good feelings about this. the devs have made change after change to speed up the game and now they've gone and done something which i feel not only slows down the game but will affect the fun-factor.

the logic is simple. the average joe gamer doesn't want to be the guy stuck with the bitch job. and he doesn't have to be. nothing stops him from fighting, so he will fight in leu of doing the boring things. and here is the boring thing in question. lugging a not-so-fast, not-so-armored buggy thing to a warpgate and back to fill up the bases energy.

this in and of itself is not the problem. the problem is that this is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to holding any base. you will lose if you don't do it. you'd think that that fact would be enough to make someone do it all the time. but in my experience with online games, i highly doubt it will happen. nobody wants to do the menial tasks, they want the action.

i expect all bases to fall to neutral every time there is a fight. and that just isn't fun. the control of a base should be determined about how well the defenders are fighting, not how effectively the ANT escort is (if there even is any, see boring tasks above). when the bases will fall to neutral, you will get bickering and arguing on the defense. "go fill up the silo!", "no, you do it", "no you do it" ad nausium. if the attackers already haven't invaded and captured the base, i expect alot of defenders to simply give up and leave(kill themselves, whatever) to go fight somewhere "where their team doesn't suck."

and after the attackers clean up the last of the defense, their silo will still be empty, and still nobody will want to be the one to go fill it up. so the attackers will most likely leave the base to fight elsewhere (even tho the other bases will be facing the same issues)

if you need a full silo to run a base, then what the fuck is the generator for? this just really doesn't make sense to me. what was wrong with the old way?

menial, boring tasks should not be necessary to controlling a base. they say they want this game to be a fast-paced FPS, but this is more reminiscent of an RTS.

would you want to be the grunt hording gold in warcraft? didn't think so.

[Mazelmavin]

I agree, people want action and the ANT job is boring.

But boring only in of itself.

The job will get done, because poeple like teamwork. Even if your job is the boring one, it feels exciting in a team.

One guy is not going to go get an ANT and bring it back. No, this will be a job for a whole squad. The ANT will need a guard to make it back. Plus, it can fit snuggly into a Galaxy.

I forsee some squads will dedicate themselves to doing just this on each continent without any direction. Just running around refilling siloes. Its worth BEPs and its an important job.

[Airlift]

I still haven't decided what I think of this (aside from the fact that while I may carry an ANT around in my galaxy, I'll probably never drive one to get it filled up). I think if it sucks and breaks gameplay it will be removed in beta. On the other hand, if it is a pleasant suprise and it turns out to be fun to make a fuel run past a line of defenders (not likely if the ANT is as slow and weak as I suspect), it may be one of the best parts of Planetside.

Either way, I like that they are looking for ways to add depth and variance to gameplay. Let's just hope that a Silo lasts about a week.

[NewmanOnIsland]

Um Afex I just read that too.
I like doing that stuff.
not ALL the time, but sure anything to help the cause.
PLus I'm sure the opfor will be gunning for me on the road and I'll have to out-run/ avoid them. That sounds like fun too.

I do see your point though.

NewmanOnIsland

[afex]

Mazelmavin: but thats what im saying

the only way i forsee the ANTs getting refueled effectively is if an outfit dedicates themselves to doing it. so in a normal "pub" fight, it just wont happen.

that was a problem that t2 had. TWL competition was very fun for me, especially when my team was in the top 10 of our ladder and the teams were very good. the action was feirce, and fast. but pub games SUCKED. and that was b/c defense was too easy so an unorganized offense had no chance.

do you see the parallels i'm trying to draw here? in the "normal" fight, it will be unorganized. every fight wont be outfit A defending against outfit B. it will be just whoever happens to be logged in and at that base.

[LesserShade]

^Yes, this may not be so bad I'm thinking. Also, SJ mentioned that they are working on tweaking time that a silo powers a base right? I wonder how long that is.. an hour.... 4 hours? less? If it's something that you have to do every 30 minutes, that will get old quick.. but if it's something that a team only has to do a every couple of hours it probably won't be so bad, and would make attacking a little more interesting because you might want to plan around attacking when a base's silo is getting close to empty.

Who knows, hopefully if this ends up being bunk, it will get worked out in beta

[Incompetent]

You act like your going to have to run back and forth every thirty seconds, i would bet two or three guys could keep an entire continent running(not counting escorts of course), not to mention the things will be fight magnets. The driver can just rotate with one of the escorts every run as well. Sides, serious outfits are going to be the ones making the runs, and its hard to say no to someone with the power to boot you from your unit.

[LesserShade]

I don't want to compare this game to DAoC too much, but there are some similarities. In that game though, when ppl are just running around randomly nothing really gets accomplished, usually what ends up happening is a few clans get together and coordinate an attack on a keep, and that's how it gets taken, I have a feeling that the random t2 pub style play isn't going to really get any bases captured, regardless of whether or not a team of defenders has to haul the giant duracell from the warp gate to the base silo every hour (at least i hope).


^^i agree with incompetent though, i have a feeling that anything that involves more than just shooting the bad guy will probably end up being the responsibility of an outfit of some experienced players who know what to do, and know what is important to take a base.

[Mazelmavin]

I think I see the problem. I don't think of each base as its own fight. I see the fight for a continent or a good sized section. There won't be any "pub fights" per se. Its all a pub fight.

What will happen is that a "ANT squad" will form indepently and help keep all of its empires siloes filled.

If I'm wrong and each base is on its own, then your right. Filling your silo is going to be tedious.

[chaos1428]

I am really not too worried about it GETTING done, as I'm sure people will do it. I'm more concerned about it going neutral after a certain time has expired. Yes, it adds more depth, wth supply lines, and such, but it just measn an attacking force just has to "wait them out". Essentially, you wouldn't even need to attack. You could just cut off the supply lines, killing the ANTS, and thats it. The base goes neutral, take yer guys in, and take the base.

My question would be, whent he base is taken, does it have juice? Would base assault have to include an ANT parked in the bushes, waiting for your team to take the base?

Lets say, NC is defending the base from an attacking TR force, and the base flips to neutral. NC hacker hacks it, and its NC's again. Will it just imediatly flip back to neutral because theres no power, or will it start a new timer? If it just imediately flips back, then in order to cap the base, the TR attacking force will have to have an ANT parked outside, waiting. Meaning someone will have to guard it the whole assault. If it starts a new timer, then why not just let the power run out? You get a free dose every 15 minutes (time it takes to hack it)

the only answer to these questions is beta, so I guess we will just have to see. At least it gives us something new to talk about.

[Incompetent]

um chaos, its called a counter-attack, noone is going to just sit around after their supply lines have been cut. and the attackers can always have the initial casualties spawn back at a base and have them drive back in an ANT

[afex]

Originally posted by Mazelmavin
What will happen is that a "ANT squad" will form indepently and help keep all of its empires siloes filled.

If I'm wrong and each base is on its own, then your right. Filling your silo is going to be tedious.

right. exactly. we shouldn't have to DEPEND on individuals filling menial roles to necessitate gameplay.

the make-or-break is in the hands of the players and not the game.

what happens if you get online and the "ANT squad" isn't? you're fucked. it's not the games fault, but the players? it just doesn't work well.

[Mazelmavin]

what happens if you get online and the "ANT squad" isn't? you're fucked. it's not the games fault, but the players? it just doesn't work well.

Again, we are thinking on different levels.

I personally think "ANT Squads" will be competing with each other. I expect each continent that is being contested will have more then one "ANT squad", if not more than enough.

And when I say "ANT squad", I don't mean an outfit that always does that job. I mean a group of people who formed a squad(likely with a Galaxy), and decided to refuel siloes unitl they get wiped out or bored.

It will be likea MMORPG:
"ANT squad with Galaxy looking for skeeter pilot guard"

[Warborn]

Hm. The ANT system prevents people from squatting in a base for an excessive duration, as they'll quickly run out of resources (quickly being "within a few hours"). It also provides some additional work for people to do, specifically the ability to disrupt the enemy's ability to attack by intercepting ANTs en route. That fact alone makes me believe that driving an ANT will not be a piece of cake, and will actually require an escort (similar to supply convoys in WW2).

So as far as I'm concerned, this change is good provided they get the speed at which bases deplete right. If you need to refuel a base every hour, then yeah, it'd be terrible. But if bases could last over 24 hours without fuel if they're not being used, and even better, could last several hours if they're a flurry of activity, then it'll be fine. Impatient newbies may not take to the thought of it, but I know I'd be more than happy to fill such a critical role if it were required, or to even escort an ANT if the enemy was busy intercepting convoys to cut off supplies to a base it was about to attack. Could be a lot of fun, I think.

[Hamma]

MMOFPS != FPS

I do see your points, but I dont think it will be all that big of an issue. We will see in Beta and Open Beta I guess.

[Mazelmavin]

I am well aware of the differences between RPG and FPS.

But this game will have formed groups, much like a MMORPG. And I believe that there will be similiar group/squad dynamics. I.E. squads will be formed for a purpose and then will stay together. This is one of the top reasons to expect more teamwork than other FPS's(e.g. BF1942, CS, Tribes, ect...)


AND SHOULDN"T YOU BE PREPARING FOR SOMETHING!!

[ABRAXAAS]

This whole ANT idea is sweet it just adds more realizm and a whole new level to strategy ,just think how exciting it will be when you tower is running low on energy and the enemy is aproaching and you send out your "Rider" so to speak to make a dash for it ,everyone wundering if he'll make it back on time ,and of course the rider given it all he's got . It just sounds so exciting I would be more than happy to grab an ANT and boot it for a warpgate :D

[Sputty]

In MMOGs some people will do anything. I'm assuming that sometimes people will want to do that and some people, like outfits, will have to do and be more organized to do it. Guess they plan on implementing siege like battles.

[Adamant]

Will there be a storage area in the bases to keep extra energy/fuel so that u can fill the silo from that?

that would be cool.

[ABRAXAAS]

probably not but im sure you could have an extra ANT or two hangin around out back ;)

[Adamant]

that would work too!!

[�io]

3 things to remember about this whole thing.

1-You get BEPs for doing it so it's a very easy way to get free BEPs, good for the lazy and/or weak peeps who don't wanna fight in a battle.

2-People(well at least the mature and serious gamers) will thank and love you for filling the silos up!

3-You won't have to spend the whole day doing it. They said they are adjusting the rate at which it empties so they will most likely only make you fill it up once a while not every 10mins.

:)

[afex]

Originally posted by Dio

1-You get BEPs for doing it so it's a very easy way to get free BEPs, good for the lazy and/or weak peeps who don't wanna fight in a battle.

2-People(well at least the mature and serious gamers) will thank and love you for filling the silos up!


1. everyone will be battle rank 20 eventually

2. average joe gamer does not seek the "thanks" of people he'll probably never see again.

[ABRAXAAS]

There will be more than enough people willing to make the run hell man Im atleast one ,im sure I wont be the only one :D

[Warborn]

1. everyone will be battle rank 20 eventually

They're in trouble if advancement ends after you get rank 20 in a couple months. I'm sure there'll be other things to aspire to. Regardless, you don't have to do it. There are plenty of other people out there who'll do it simply because it's an important function, action-packed or not.

2. average joe gamer does not seek the "thanks" of people he'll probably never see again.

Yes, he does, because he will see people again. This isn't an FPS where you join, see 19 other random people, log off in 30 minutes, and likely never see those people again. Much of the Factions on each server will be very permanent, and they'll be almost like a big Outfit in itself. People will be extraordinarily cordial toward one another (by FPS standards) because of the fact that they're both permanent members of the same team. And they will give you a pat on the back for performing important tasks like Silo filling. This sort of social relationship that these games (especially games where people are on sides -- DAoC being another example) form are what keeps things together. EverQuest, the worst f'ing game in the universe, exists solely because MMOGs create online friendships between players that no other type of game really emulates.

[Mazelmavin]

Exactly.

People are so quick to point out that Planetside is not a MMORPG, but it will be a MMO and that means there are similiarities.

"This is not a RPG"

"Well it isn't exactly your daddy's FPS"

In fact, go look at this (http://planetside.station.sony.com/news_story.jsp?story=53954) .

[SandTrout]

I'd likely be an ANT driver at times because I am not a great aim, but I hate fealing useless. Support roles can be enjoyable for me at least.

[shadowwolf]

Originally posted by SandTrout
I'd likely be an ANT driver at times because I am not a great aim, but I hate fealing useless. Support roles can be enjoyable for me at least.

We've got it. If there's one, there's more where that came from. People will do this, I don't see it being an issue. Besides being the wheelman of a heavily guarded vehicle will make them feel important :)

[Ludio]

Many of you are romanticizing the job of the ANT driver. If the only time that you needed to refuel the bases was during combat because supplies were used when you respawned/used invo terminals then it would be like supply lines. People would have to make mad dashes to the warpgate and back under heavy escort to get the supplies through.

That would be fun and a cool feature, but that wont be when you are doing most of your resupplying..

SmokeJumper said that every few hours (even without combat) you will have to refill the nanites because they decay. This has nothing to do with running through enemy lines for nanites. It is for any base at all that you just have to maintain. This is like being a truck driver in peace time.

You will gain experience for doing this, but you will probably get more for fighting and have a better time. This basically means newbs who are really bad at fighting will be ANT drivers.

The only possible redemption for this is continent lockdown. If your empire owns all the bases then the continent is locked down and enemies can only come through drop pods. I think this mean that you will have to refill your bases on your continent if you want to keep it locked down. This doesnt make it more fun, but it does make it more important because you not only lose the base, but also the control of the warp gates.

It is possible that the devs are doing this for balancing so that you cannot keep your continent without heavy maintenence.

I still think that they should get rid of the decay factor and make it only for respawning and such because it would make it more exciting, or they could change it to 24 hour decay so that you rarely have to do it.

Until then have think of the newbs who cant fight, they get to enjoy the most beautiful truck driving simulator ever.

[Hamma]

This is a good thread - hopefully SmokeJumper finds it :D

[Warborn]

I think you're making the ANT out to be far less interesting that normal. Honestly, even if you see no enemies (or friendlies) during that time, I can't see it being terribly boring to the point of ruining the game. Just hop in one, burn some rubber for 10 minutes, get some experience, and then see if there's a fight going on. Hell, after getting smoked several times in the same fight I'd probably hop in an ANT just to take a break. Is it the most exciting feature ever announced? No. Is it the worst thing since the Holocaust? I doubt it. But, even still, if they make ANT runs occur too frequently, then yeah, it'll become tiring to lose bases because nobody thought to refuel it or some such. Like so much else, this idea is good on paper, but whether it'll be good in-game depends entirely on its execution. If they botch it, it'll suck. If they pull it off, it'll be interesting and add some additional depth to the game.

[Bighoss]

they could make an Ant squad called "FED EX"

[�io]

Originally posted by Ludio
SmokeJumper said that every few hours (even without combat) you will have to refill the nanites because they decay. This has nothing to do with running through enemy lines for nanites. It is for any base at all that you just have to maintain.

He also said they were currently working on exactly how long. Besides as Warborn said so you take up a precious 10-15mins in your fighting time every 5-6 hours to fill your silo up, does that sound so bad? Plus that's if your the only guy willing to do it and you get BEPs for it, i don't see how this can be considered a problem. :)

[Ouroboros]

Everyone makes this task seem so long. There's 3 to 4 warpgates on each continent, you could easily get a Galaxy pilot to give you a ride, get there, fill up, hop back on the Galaxy and be back at you base in no time.
:confused:

[Headrattle]

Actually I am pretty sure he said a few things about how fast a base loses resources.
this is from the latest Dev chat.

1. <CrazyMike> A lot of discussion in the forums are around a concern regarding the lack of players at odd times in the day. They worry that all thier hard work will be undone. This is even more a problem with the latest info on NTU's. Can you comment on this?

SmokeJumper> Sure, it's a valid concern...as long as they're unaware of the gameplay balancing factors...which they are. So totally fair. I'll try to explain... The NTU balance is still being adjusted, but the concept is to reduce NTU consumption when battles aren't raging around the facility. That can be done by a number of factors...NTU consumption increases with respawns at the facility, or when auto-repair features kick on, etc. We're still adjusting those factors so I can't tell you numbers yet. Anyway...this means that facilities will stay owned for long periods of time...unless there are fights around them. <SmokeJumper> Thus, they don't "decay" from just sitting there very much.

<CrazyMike> So from your producers letter it seems like a base left alone long enough will eventually just revert to neutral. Is this how it works?

<SmokeJumper> It will eventually, yes, Mike. But we're talking hours. I shouldn't say "hours". The time is being determined, but is intended to be long.


What I get from that is after a half a day to a day you might have to resupply a base that isn't getting much use. But who knows. They don't even know. But I am sure that it will be a while.
As for the fighting bit I am not sure about that either. You are going to need escorts, because you will see combat. Many of the places you will need to resupply will be under attack. So you need to get past them. Then what happens after you supply the base? You get out and fight.

What if you are going to a base that isn't under attack? You are driving a nice ripe target. Thus you need escorts. Those things are going to attract firefights. There was a gamespot hands on preview that stated that the areas between bases were full of enemies. Or you do it in a galaxy, which should take up too much time.

I also think that BEP awarded for supplying a base will directly related to how low that base is. So there will be times that it will award a decent amount of BEP.
Another thing for the newbies is that it will give players practice playing the game, taking orders, and learning the maps.

I personally want to create a group that does this.
No snipers. No infiltraters. Galixy Pilots, Reaver Pilots and Mos Pilots for airdrops. Drivers, Max's, Medics and anyone else that can guard important cargo for ground escort.

With such a group, we could also be able to escort an AMS or something without changing our tactics.

I have a feeling that these things will be more important then you think. Not as important as assaulting and defending. But without such things niether would work effectively.

You are assaulting a base and finally take it over, only to find that they are almost out of NTU's. Shouldn't you take an ANT and escort with you? Or call for one in the 15 minutes that it takes to take the base? What is the point when as soon as you get it up it goes neutral a little after.

In short, I think it deepens the game both tactically and strategically.

As for how many people will do this?
I read somewhere 28000 signed up for beta in november. So lets assume that 28000 actually play the game. Over 5 servers (last I counted) that is an average 5600 per server. Three empires, is an average of 1866 per Empire on each server. There should be a few that will be able to do this.
You only need 50 or so for each empire.

So if you are for the NC on the central server, count on me being there defending my ANT. And if I don't have an ANT, you will see me hunting down other ANT's.

Look for Headrattle. All I ask is for a Galaxy or an escort to help me out.
And if I had a group to do this, all we would need is a base that needs it.

But then, all of this is conjecture.

[Headrattle]

Oh.

As for a name, I pick The Deliverators.

Ever read SnowCrash?

[SandTrout]

just a guess, but a compleatly inactive base will probably last 12-24 hours without goind neutral.

[Ludio]

I didnt say it was game ruining, I just think that after the first month people will get bored. If I want to take a 10 minute break from the fighting I will go get a snack and go to the bathroom, not refill some random bases NTU silo.

I agree with Warborn that we will have to see how it is implemented, but I dont like the idea that bases require maintenence. If they required supplies to keep everyone respawning and equipped during combat then it makes sense. I think that instead of making them decay and then go neutral, they should only run out of nanites when they are used. And when they run out they should stay in your possesion, useless, but not neutral.

I also want to know what happens when they go neutral, do their nanites get resupplied so you only have to hack it, or do you have to refuel it and then hack it. What about if you are attacking a base? Do you have the same amount of nanites in it once you cap it as the defenders did when they lost it? This would mean that attacking forces need ANTs almost as much as AMS (and the ANTs dont cloak).

Also Ouroboros, there are 7-12 bases on each continent. So unless everyone decided to do a sepreate one it would get tedius/uncoordinated.

If they do keep the decay I would prefer 'day/s' over 'hours'.

I dont mind the losing resources in battle, it makes the defense have another factor to worry about, and the offense has to resupply when they get it, but the decay doesnt make sense.

The game revolves around combat. If the resupplying was neccesary for combat (which it is to a degree I know), and you had to have people resupply bases in a firefight then it would be cool. But resupplying them for the purpose of keeping in peace time seems lame.

In the end I think afex put it best:

the devs have made change after change to speed up the game and now they've gone and done something which i feel not only slows down the game but will affect the fun-factor.

No matter what they do I know someone somewhere will fill the roll of the ANT driver and keep the bases topped up, thats just the way it is when you have 5000+ ppl playing a game. It is still not very fun though.

Headrattle, I dont think that ANTs will be easy targets. The backdoor continents will almost certainly be owned by their respective empires (they will be in lockdown), and on contested continents there are probably going to be rough 'lines', which you can depend on a certain amount of security when you are behind them. Of course a Galaxy would do the trick too.

If anyone is lazy and didnt read that/understand here's the summary:

Battle resupply = Cool

Peacetime Maintenence = Bad

[quiet]

I think ANTs and NTU silos add a very good strategic element to PS. Warfare cannot be epic without some sense of resource management and supply lines. Getting rid of the old economy was a good thing but something besides vehicle respawn timers needed to take its place.

For commanders = more stuff to monitor/cordinate :)

For attackers = win a base through attrition :sniper:

For defenders = every spawn (char, vehic, equip) depletes your NTUs. BF1942 tickets integrated with equipent and vehicles and
supply lines.:thumbsup:

For Galaxy pilots = :D (carryalls dune style)

Escort missions =:bouncy:

ANT drivers = I dunno, who wants to drive a slow vehicle with no weaps that the enemy will target first? Well, if I watch The RoadWarrior a few times maybe I can get myself psyched up for it. The ANT doesn't really sound like the big fuel tanker it should be though , hmm, maybe one of those APCs could be modded to carry NTUs . . .

[Headrattle]

Ludio.

I agree with you about Lockdowned Continents. It would make sense if the more bases on a continent you have the longer it would take for them to run out of NTU's when it is unused. This would seem balanced and keep people concentrating on the front line continents.

If you have control of all of the warpgates, and the warp gates supply the energy, then your bases should rarely need it. This just seems silly.

But this next part I base off of the map or Cyssor here. (http://planetside-universe.com/media/viewer.php?cat_id=28&img_id=8)

There are 17 bases.
And if you notice there are roads going from base to base. Now depending on what bases who controls there will be plenty of times that you will happen upon a group of badguys.

Especially if the "front line" is a little muttled.

True, a Galaxy with an ANT in back can make the runs to the fringe bases. But I wouldn't want to get caught alone.

If you could hijack an ANT (one of the FAQ's said that you could shoot the driver. Not sure if that is true.) that would make raiding for ANT's plausible, though very hard.

You might be right about them not being big targets. There might not be a need for huge convoys. But there will still be a need for an Harrasser just in case. After all, if I am in a Reaver and I happen across an ANT. I am taking that puppy out.

[PrivateMonkey]

I hope I don't repeat too many arguements here. I posted part of this on another forum, but it sums up my thoughts regarding resources. Before I reply to afex, let me sum up my thoughts on why resources are good:


1) Resource strategies. As if warp-gates weren't important before, now they serve a whole new role. "Controlling" a warp-gate will give an empire resources to power thier bases. This also makes for a new combat role: resource gatherer. This may sound boring, but imagine the following scenario:

An outfit is dedicated to powering the bases on a given continent. This is what they do: they fly a bunch of Galaxies, and in each galaxy they hold as many ANT's as possible. They then make relays between warp-gates and bases that need energy. When they reach the warp-gate, they empty out all the ANTs, and fill them up with energy. They could be deployed by a commander, who would assess which bases need the energy the most. At the same time, they could also give friendly players lifts from the warp-gate to the main battle.

Afex makes the claim that no-one will want to do this. I firmly disagree. I'll adress this later, but just to quote dave:

You *do* gain Battle Experience for resupplying a Silo via the ANT.

If for no other reason, people will do this to get the easy exp.


Another resource strategy: if a base is low on energy, but the defenders are holding out... Siege!!! You could effectively surround the base, and stop any Galaxies from bringing in new resources. When the base runs out of energy, you charge in.

In short, the number of strategies is only limited to one's imagination. I'm sure people will come up with some awesome ways to use (and abuse :)) resources.


2) Base upkeep. In the spirit of trying to kill two birds with one stone, the resource system solves another key issue. This issue has to do with empires not having to worry about captured bases that are far behind the front lines. With resources, you will now have to keep supplying your captured bases with energy. This gives ambitious commanders an extra role, but it also means that players won't entirely abandon captured bases. This makes the game deeper, and also solves a lot of continent-balance issues.


Ok, now I'll reply to afex:

the logic is simple. the average joe gamer doesn't want to be the guy stuck with the bitch job. and he doesn't have to be. nothing stops him from fighting, so he will fight in leu of doing the boring things. and here is the boring thing in question. lugging a not-so-fast, not-so-armored buggy thing to a warpgate and back to fill up the bases energy.

Two points. First of all, since when is everyone an "average joe gamer"? The whole point of PS is that it offers a plethora of roles. You can be an engineer, a front-line figher, a support medic, a pilot, a commander... these are all separate roles. Personally I think just fighting is boring. I don't enjoy pure combat on it's own. The truth is that there is no such thing as a average gamer. At most you can argue that folks that have only played average FPS games up to now prefer straight combat. But PS is so revolutionary because it doesn't just cater to the average gamer. Some folks (me included) are giddy all over regarding resources. And here is why:

ANTs *can* be carried by Galaxies.

Nobody in thier right mind will ever transport ANTs on ground. They'll pack up a few galaxies with them, and do relays between warp-gates and bases. I personally find the idea of evading enemy fire and landing with my resources to save a base very exciting and rewarding. Without my efforts the base would have been lost.


nobody wants to do the menial tasks, they want the action.

There is plenty of action involved. I don't think it is "menial" at all. In fact, I see as the exact opposite: sitting in a base and just fighting is boring and mundane. You go through the same routines over and over. As a resource deployer, I have plenty of action. I fly all over the continent, bringing resources to whichever base needs it most. I know what's happening on a continent-wide scale, and I am in contact with my whole empire. I evade enemy fire, and am constantly rewarded. I am not bullshitting you here. I am seriously excited about relaying resources. You may not be, but that doesn't mean the game is flawed. It is because peolpe have different interests that PS will work so well.


would you want to be the grunt hording gold in warcraft? didn't think so.

Each to his own. I think I've pointed out how relaying resources is going to be an awesome role to play. Let me ask you this: is playing as a medic "menial"? By your logic it should be. Deploying resources is no different they playing medic: you must bring aid to those that need it most, and stay alive in the process. Without you the game won't work. Without resource deployers empires won't win. Who doesn't want to play as someone whos role is that important?


I'm not saying that your concern may not be legitimate. What I am saying is that we aren't talking here about a mundane task that some just "has" to do. By that logic someone also "has" to be an engineer. Someone "has" to be a medic. Someone "has" to be a commander. Someone "has" to be a pilot. Someone "has" to a defender. Someone "has" to be an attacker.

Everyone likes doing different roles. Having resources adds a whole new dimension to the game, while adding a ton of strategy. It solves problems, and it creates an opporitunity for empires to come up with creative strategies. I think you are just assuming that everyone wants to run in and fight. If games such as TFC or BF-1942 are any sign of the variety of tastes out there, I'd say resource management will get it's fair share of fans.

[Ludio]

Thats exactly what I mean Headrattle, I want the ANT drivers to be in the action delivering badly needed supplies to a besieged base. This is a cool game mechanic, they may have taken out the money, but we now have supplies. The part I am worried about is the mundane supply run that doesnt serve any purpose other than keeping the base from going neutral.

Limited resources could be really cool:

Sieges: The attackers may only have one AMS, but it never runs out of resources, without resupply a 30-60 minute battle could be the death of defenders, this gets rid of turtling. The defenders have to be as active as the attackers.

Counter Attacks: If the attacker gets a base with low resoucres then it is a prime target to be attacked, the attackers must bring an ANT with them to keep the base from being overwhelmed by a counter attack.

Resupply Missions: Imagine your last base on a continent is under attack, it is absolutely neccessary that it not fall. It would be so cool to be the ANT/Galaxy driver bringing in the nanites, you truly would be a hero.

I think that a system like yours could work Headrattle to keep the resupplying from becoming tedius.

I would like to know though how long a base would last without resupply when under attack. If it could last more than an hour or two, then the whole siege idea wouldnt work.

[PrivateMonkey]

Originally posted by Ludio
Thats exactly what I mean Headrattle, I want the ANT drivers to be in the action delivering badly needed supplies to a besieged base. This is a cool game mechanic, they may have taken out the money, but we now have supplies. The part I am worried about is the mundane supply run that doesnt serve any purpose other than keeping the base from going neutral.


This is a legit concern, but the devs have it handled. I would also think the NTU system is flawed were it not for this comment from dave:

<@SmokeJumper> The NTU balance is still being adjusted, but the concept is to reduce NTU consumption when battles aren't raging around the facility. That can be done by a number of factors...NTU consumption increases with respawns at the facility, or when auto-repair features kick on, etc. We're still adjusting those factors so I can't tell you numbers yet.

Anyway...this means that facilities will stay owned for long periods of time...unless there are fights around them. Thus, they don't "decay" from just sitting there very much.



This essentially addresses your concern: if players are fighting around a base, it looses more energy. If more players are spawned to a base, it looses more energy. If nobody is really at a base, it will "stay owned for long periods of time". Daves own words :).

[TerraxNovae]

As noted, they are working on the time it takes to deplete a full NTU Silo when no one's around. This could concieveably be a WEEK or more, depending on how they want to work it. Under battle conditions, with people spawning left and right, spawning vehicles (which are available from ANY base), ammo, Turrets blasting away, being blown up and self repairing... the same amount that keeps a base going for a week is gone in a couple of minutes. Then the "ANT run in the nick of time" factor comes in.

Frankly, the whole system is a stroke of genius. If they can get it worked out properly it should add loads to the playability.

[PrivateMonkey]

Frankly, the whole system is a stroke of genius. If they can get it worked out properly it should add loads to the playability.

That is percisely the way I see it. Hand in hand with the wheather and command systems, PS is looking to completely revolutionize the FPS genre. Folks would call it "fresh" were it just an average FPS on the MMO scale... the fact that it is adding all these features is why it will be so much more then that. When I first heard about PS, I thought it was a great first game in a genre that could go very, very far. PS has turned out to be the kind of game that I'd have expected to see as a third or fourth-generation MMOFPS. My only worry is that it will be a game ahead of it's time. It might be too radical for some people.

[Ludio]

Heres another quote from SmokeJumper:

It will eventually, yes, Mike. But we're talking hours. I shouldn't say "hours". The time is being determined, but is intended to be long.

I know that it isn't yet finnished, especially because he said he shouldn't say "hours". However this does give us an estimation of the time that a base would take to decay. If it is in hours I think that it is far too short a time. I think that there should be no decay. It can be completely eliminated from the current design. If they can't do that for some reason then at least make it a day or more.

I have complete faith that the devs are making a wonderfull game and anything they put in is great, but it can be improved upon. That is why I hope that SmokeJumper sees this thread and learns/comments on it so that we can understand and possibly improve this game mechanic.

This is basically what I would like to see:

1. Decay thrown out, we dont need it unless there is a good balancing reason for it.

2. Relatively fast loss of resources in battle. I would like to see bases fall because of lack of resources for respawn and such. This means about a one hour limit to the resources in a battle, maybe less.

3. When the resources run out don't make the base go neutral. The base may be useless, but at least it still belongs to them. This prevents any accidental base loss in any non-combat situation. In a combat situation then I assume the base is about to be taken anyway.

And I wouldn't worry about it being ahead of its time PrivateMonkey. :D

[TerraxNovae]

I believe the reason for decay is threefold:

First, if you (as an empire) aren't committed to holding what you have, you should lose it just that much easier. A base that declines slowly in available... well it isn't power, more like raw resources of some kind... would be easier to seige into submission than one that is filled once, and stays that way until the battle comes to it. Having no decay harkens back to the nonpersistant world FPS's, and would lead to a "Find, Fornicate, Forget" type of resource management. Basically, hack it, fill it, forget it.

Second, you have the situation where you hack a base behind the lines with a low NTU Silo (most likely becase of neglect)... you have to have an ANT run done quickly, most likely under fire, to be able to hang on to that base.

Third, when NTU neglect gets BAD, and bases go neutral, the enemy will be able to hack them and cap them WITHOUT a warning message to the empire that owned them. Sneak capping. Makes recon an actual possiblity and possibly a profitable option for outfits. Say you cloak around and discover a base about to go neutral... you call in the guys with an ANT strapped to a Galaxy, wait for it to go neutral, hack the base, fill the Silo, and there you go, a fully operational base, possibly far from anywhere the enemy expected one.

People keep arguing that "people will not want to do this because repetative stuff like this gets boring." Ever watch someone play Evercrack, with a "fabricator" character (IE someone who makes stuff to sell)? I watched someone I know make and sew squares of cloth together to get practice so he could make better stuff... and he did this for a couple of HOURS. I hear there are other examples of this, mining ore in UO, Resource gathering in SWG (believe that it's something similar). There will be those that will like the fact they can be the gas man and get experience for it.

[Mazelmavin]

This is one of those things that will be continually tweaked for years. Even when the devs find the perfect balance, somebody won't like it. Trust me on this.
People keep arguing that "people will not want to do this because repetative stuff like this gets boring." Ever watch someone play Evercrack, with a "fabricator" character (IE someone who makes stuff to sell)? I watched someone I know make and sew squares of cloth together to get practice so he could make better stuff... and he did this for a couple of HOURS. I hear there are other examples of this, mining ore in UO, Resource gathering in SWG (believe that it's something similar). There will be those that will like the fact they can be the gas man and get experience for it.
You better believe it. The hardcore gamers can scream R-P-G a until they passout, but the fact is this:
The behavior described above is NOT RPG behavior, its MMO behavior. This is a persistant game world; and it will make people do things that, to you, seem very strange.

[Headrattle]

I have the same fears you do Ludio.

If an unused base drains in less then a day, I worry. That is just too many milkman deliveries. I think maybe one to two days. That way a small force can resupply entire continents every day for twenty minutes and then go out and do something more usefull. Like resuppying those in need.

While I can see the need for this drain. I don't see the need for Locked Down Continents to have drain. Because who is going to be there except to run off to another Continent. It will just be a waypoint. That is a place that will have 17 resupply spots. And every day you will be spending an hour or so resupplying stuff that isn't being used. And if you don't? The continent is not locked down anymore. Mundane as all hell.

Continents under dispute however. You might have two or three bases that aren't used that much. And they will most likely be in the same area. Zip, Zap, done. On to taking calls.

In the chat they did talk about being able to see how much NTU each base has from the main map. Which is handy because you don't have to be asked you can just go where you are needed.

I have been enlightened about the galaxies though. There might not be that many ground convoys. Why have ground convoys when a galaxy can do it quicker and safer.

Also. When a base is hacked I think it should have the same amount of NTU's as before it was hacked. so you will have to have a ANT next to the AMS. (A side question, can the AMS's be picked up by a galaxy?)

When they are neutral they should slowly regain NTU because there is nowing to power. There won't be anything to power untill someone claims the base.

These things will create more use of the ANT's. I don't think they will be a hated hendrence though. Just a certain logical problem that has to be delt with. I am just throwing these ideas out there because these questions have been raised and this seems like the most logical and fun way to deal with these problems.

I am standing by my delivery force however. That seems like a job that will make sure you see lots of action. But you aren't required to only fight. Once you deliver the base an ANT. You can hang out and fight, as long as you aren't needed elsewhere.

[TerraxNovae]

As of last info, no an AMS was not airliftable.

As for the locked down continents, I'm not sure about decay. Possibly an even lower rate, perhaps half of what is normal. This would still allow for a sneak hack if they were neglected, let people get easy BEP for filling them, and such.

[Ludio]

TerraxNovae,

First Issue: This is a valid point. Maybe Headrattle's system would be the solution to this. If you control all the bases on a continent then you dont have to deal with decay. Or the more bases you control on a continent the less decay there is. If they wanted to make it really cool then perhaps a system where bases that were closer to enemy bases or most likely to be attacked would have the fastest decay rate. This would mean that people would have to maintain bases on the front lines in preperation for an attack.

Second Issue: I dont think that the bases will ever be drained for long periods of time. The only problem with this is if an empire did it on purpose so that it would be hard to capture any bases on the locked down continent. This would be difficult because some well meaning, but uninformed person could fill them up. Maybe a system so that locked down continents have auto replenishing bases would be good.

Third Issue: If bases could go neutral then I doubt they ever would except for rare situations. As I have stated in a previous post I know someone will always resupply bases, and bases about to go neutral would get top priority. I still don't think that they should go neutral though.

The comparison to Everquest is very good. This is the type of compulsive behavior is exactly what I think Planetside should avoid. I once read an interesting article on Slashdot how many people playing Everquest get to the point where they hate the game, but keep playing becuase of all the effort they have put into it that would be wasted if they quit. I know Planetside is very different, but people would keep on filling up NTU silos not because it was fun, but because it would be neccesary to keep their bases. I think that is the key issue.

[shadowwolf]

Originally posted by quiet


Off topic but, quiet from tw? :)

[Navaron]

From what I know and have read, I tend to agree with Afex. It's something we'lll have to play to figure out though. I don't know 100% what to think because I haven't played it, but for right now, I think they are overestimating the desire for team work of the average player. I'm sure large clans like CDL will develop a "resource squad", but thats about as much fun as checking the mail. Joe Blow is gonna wanna jump in, hes gonna slap up that looking for squad sign, and run around shooting things like a chicken with it's head cut off till someone grabs him.

My real issue with this decision is not that it is a bad one, but more of a perplexing one. I kinda like the feeling of housekeeping on the homefront - doing your duty. But these are the same guys that took out prone for "a faster gameplay". It seems like their left leg is going north and the right leg is going east. What are they shooting for? Fast or engulfing? Don't say both, because grocery shopping isn't engulfing.


"<SmokeJumper> It will eventually, yes, Mike. But we're talking hours. I shouldn't say "hours". The time is being determined, but is intended to be long."

This scares me, he doesn't want to say hours, but everyone here is saying, yeah it'll be ok if it's like 10 hours before you have to refill again. It's not. He's not even comfortable saying hours.

"This is one of those things that will be continually tweaked for years. Even when the devs find the perfect balance, somebody won't like it. Trust me on this."

Yep, I agree.

[Sputty]

I think this could ruin defensive gameplay. Making if it looks like the defense could last more than an hour or so people will just try to run into friendly territory or need to set up an AMS in their base. They are probably going to look back and decide some of this new system is contradictory to their original statements. Exactly like Nav said: But these are the same guys that took out prone for "a faster gameplay". It seems like their left leg is going north and the right leg is going east. What are they shooting for? Fast or engulfing? Don't say both, because grocery shopping isn't engulfing.
They better pick engulfing and realistic simulation-like or fast-paced fighting. I bet some people's statements calling PS close the Quake in gameplay wanted them to add something in new. Seems like they just want to create fast paced Fed-Exing. Seems like this could turn it into BF3000 rather than MMOT2.(Sorry for the comparisons, jsut nmoting the gamestyle chnge this could lead to could become a radical change like those two, no "Don't compare games" flames please)

[Ludio]

Navaron, well that is a new angle on the whole "hours" quote by SmokeJumper. I (and I think others) interpreted it to mean 3-6 hours, and a possibility of making it more in the 12-24 hours range. But I suppose he could have meant less time. That is really scary if that is what he meant...ugh, hourly resource runs. :ugh:

Joe Blow is gonna wanna jump in, hes gonna slap up that looking for squad sign, and run around shooting things like a chicken with it's head cut off till someone grabs him.

Sounds like what I'm going to do :D

[Unknown]

I think this adds an interesting aspect to the game. Whether it's for the best or not is anyone's guess at this time. Really guys, have a little more faith in the devs. They've been making this game for around 3 years, I'm sure they know what's best for the game. I for one will trust that if this does not enhance the overall experience of the game in some way, then the devs will trash it. If this turns out to be bad for the game then I doubt it's gonna make it through beta.

[Ludio]

I dont like to quote myself, but:

I have complete faith that the devs are making a wonderfull game and anything they put in is great, but it can be improved upon. That is why I hope that SmokeJumper sees this thread and learns/comments on it so that we can understand and possibly improve this game mechanic.

I agree with you Unknown, but we should still discuss it. I remember SmokeJumper saying that the community was great because they were like a couple of extra developers who helped with the game, thats what this discussion is trying to do.

[Airlift]

I really doubt it will be as boring as we're making it out to be. For a couple years, I played a persistent state space simulator. While combat was the main draw to the game, it included features like mining and hauling commodities in transports and towing vessels. This game had an economy that drove people to use (and abuse) these systems quite a bit, and it attracted the less capable (or people who just weren't interested in fighting) to keep the space stations supplied with the base commodities needed to produce equipment and high value produced commods.

The quasi-real physics engine made a loaded tow fly like a loaded tow, needing great distances to accelerate, decellerate, and correct course. The only excitement was in trying to avoid pirates and/or not slam into a gate or docking tube. Civilian protection schemes reduced the pirate danger to isolated corners of space and that made it boring (combined with the poor likelihood of escape should you encounter a fighter when loaded).

There are a lot of traps to a system like this, but they are not insurmountable. First and foremost are the handling characteristics of an ANT. If it doesn't drive like a loaded tugboat, people won't be too opposed to driving it. Escort missions are fun, especially when there is a good chance of interdiction.

There's always danger (though it is lessened if your continent is locked), so that isn't a huge problem. The reward scheme is such that it shouldn't make ANT driving the focus of the game (unlike the earlier example where you could exploit the economy to make billions).

All in all, I fully support a well-implemented restocking solution. We don't know enough yet to make the judgement on how it is implemented.

[Navaron]

SO whats to keep me and my clan, to link up with another clan for 15 minutes, get 15 of these harvester vehicles, have the other guys provide protection, and just drive them to each of the sources that are far enough away from the bases. Just park 3 of them there inside a base, and then just warn people when you are going to change rides or log off. Or whats to stop me from leavin my character logged on all night so my vehicle stays till they need it?

[Airlift]

Nothing. What's your point?

[Warborn]

The decay of resources when a base isn't being used should be removed. The idea of this resources bit is to, I believe, make it impossible to hold off an opponent who has your base totally surrounded for a long period of time. If the defenders are able to mount a strong enough defense of a single choke point within the base, they could hold the enemy off for a long time -- long enough that allies would come and help them. While that may seem like an OK way to work it, it'd be infuriating for the attackers that they can't do anything about it (let's say the defenders are constantly spamming bullets/explosives into the choke point and are constantly drawing ammunition from a nearby ammo dispenser thing). That's what the resource bit is meant to prevent, and that's why I feel that passive decay of resources is not a good idea.

[PrivateMonkey]

It almost seems as if folks want to ignore the devs on purpose. Bases will not significantly decay when unused!!!

Dave said this in the dev chat. Please read:

<@SmokeJumper> The NTU balance is still being adjusted, but the concept is to reduce NTU consumption when battles aren't raging around the facility. That can be done by a number of factors...NTU consumption increases with respawns at the facility, or when auto-repair features kick on, etc. We're still adjusting those factors so I can't tell you numbers yet.

Anyway...this means that facilities will stay owned for long periods of time...unless there are fights around them. Thus, they don't "decay" from just sitting there very much.


It doesn't get any clearer then this. The point is, the devs know this is an issue. They are currently balancing it. Also, just to stop further misinformation from making the rounds, lets clarify a basic point:


1) Galaxies will be able to cary ANTs. Nobody in thier right mind will actually drive these vehicles on the ground, unless perhaps there is a warp-gate a couple minutes away.


It seems like their left leg is going north and the right leg is going east. What are they shooting for? Fast or engulfing? Don't say both, because grocery shopping isn't engulfing.

I think people are missing the whole point of resources. They are not there for realism. Sure, the devs can build a fictional reason as to why they are needed, but game-design doesn't put the story before the game.

I see many folks worried about this being a mundane gameplaying role. Good, I say. More work for me. Don't be ignorant and assume that everyone thinks like you do. I'm sure you also think playing medic and engineer is boring. For me, there is no difference between playing medic and deploying resources. The mention of the word "resource gatherer" is almost insulting. It recalls visions of SCV's in StarCraft going back and forth...back and forth.... yes, that is boring. But that is not what the devs have included. They have included a system that requires you to strategically prioritize where the resources are needed. In fact, I'd even make the following arguement: everybody who wanted to play as a pilot is probably jumping for joy. They now have something else to do other then just transport people. Deploying resources is really a pilots job. It's about traveling the world and interacting with outfits. In fact, I'd make a strong arguement that it is one of the most strategic elements in the whole game. You think it's boring? Mundane? I pity you. Indeed, for me the prospect of just sitting there and defending a base seems incredibly dull. If pure combat was the only role PS offered, I doubt half of us would even be here.


To sum up my two points:

1) The devs are addressing the non-combat decay. The point here is to create a fun system that adds to the game, not the realism. If the system didn't make for more exciting gameplay I doubt the devs would have added it.

2) Some folks like playing as engineers. Some folks like playing as medics. Some folks like playing as drivers/pilots. And some folks even like playing as commanders. These are all support roles. They are the roles that win games; that make the difference between victory and defeat. There is no reason why folks won't like playing as a resource deployer. In fact, I'd even argue that deploying resources isn't in itself a whole new role. It is a combination of the commander and pilot roles. For those of us who enjoy the support aspects of PS, the resource system is a dream come true. It is the difference of dimensions. For those of you that enjoy combat, don't trip. You can't win without medics. You can't win without engineers. You probably can't win without good pilots. And ultimately you can't win without commanders. What is so radical with this new role? You can't win without resource deployers. By the same token you couldn't have won before without those other support roles. All it does is add another level of strategy.

[Mazelmavin]

:stupid:
Nicely said
:cheers:

[Navaron]

PrivateMonkey,

Ease up on the "emphatic" language please,

"stop further misinformation" - Just to clarify, you haven't played the game right? So you don't know anything for a fact then.

"Nobody in thier right mind will actually drive these vehicles on the ground, unless perhaps there is a warp-gate a couple minutes away. "

Unless of course they don't feel like taking a Galaxie from their Sanctuary. Also, don't forget you have to be in control of the air transport station to get galaxies, I'm pretty sure that will be a point of contest, and that galaxies coming out of there will be juicy targets regardless of what they carry.

"I think people are missing the whole point of resources. They are not there for realism. Sure, the devs can build a fictional reason as to why they are needed, but game-design doesn't put the story before the game.

I see many folks worried about this being a mundane gameplaying role. Good, I say. More work for me. Don't be ignorant and assume that everyone thinks like you do."

I'm not ignorant at all, I do however doubt that you will be able to amass 30 people like yourself on every server, on every needed continent, at every needed time. For the people not like you, it's going to be a pain in the ass to do, especially since they DO look at it as menial.

"everybody who wanted to play as a pilot is probably jumping for joy."

Assuming they can get galaxies. Point is, I bet they'd rather be taking troops into the heat of battle somewhere than going on a milkrun ever few hours on a continent they already have locked down.

"I pity you." - Thanks ;)

"If pure combat was the only role PS offered, I doubt half of us would even be here."

I agree.

"commander and pilot roles" - that commander's not going to have a lot of followers.

"Nothing. What's your point?"

Just that if it is a problem, there's already a nice fat easy solution.

Like I said before, I don't know what to think about this because I haven't played the game yet. I can't understand their motives for doing things like taking out prone (to keep the game fast paced), then implementing things that require you to tend house on a continent you already own.


I like the idea for combat though, but it will create a lot of hard feelings when you're under siege and some retard keeps spawning as a max, running out the door dying, spawning as a max and so on and so on. I know that clanners who have dedicated max guys aren't too happy about that, but it will HOPEFULLY keep out the spam deaths.

I think that it all falls back to the class of players we get. Hopefully the fee and high system requirements keep out the players who aren't serious. I wouldn't mind making a nano run once a day if I had company, (which I would), but not everyone is as lucky as those who have actual clans. These guys are the ones I'm worried about, because the game needs them, but if I'm in a haphazzard squad with a leader I don't know and he tells me and 5 other guys to go get juice, I'm not gonna be happy.

I'd like to repeat that I am not for or against it though, I just think that it's going to take very careful implementation. I like the idea of having something else to do though.

[k24q]

Im personally looking forward to leading my outfit on a ANT hunt. Where does it say you can't take any enemy ANT? Adding this simple supply problem to the game opens up many more roles and combat decisions, such as enemy ANT with escort ahead, what do we do? We could ambush them and concentrate all firepower on the ANT and pull out. Or we could kill the escort and claim the ANT for ourselves and take it to the nearest Friendly installation. Your defending the base and have been now for a good hour NTU's are running abit low, you will be glad to see an ANT and an armed escort coming.
With the right amount of balancing and of course a good community mentality then these can be a fine addition to the game. If they prove to be to difficult to implement I would expect they would be removed.

[rockarfett]

I think this whole ANT thing is a GREAT idea. It adds a whole new dimension to the game. I see lots of people here are worried that it will be boring. I have only one thing to say to you. Don't do it. This is an MMO we are talking about. There will be people that actually enjoy this kind of task. Be sure about that. Anyway, I don't see how it would be much different from driving a tank or an APC or a Galaxy or what not. Usually, the driver can't fire anything anyway. It could also be a whole bunch of fun. Those ANTs will be enemy magnets. There will probably be lots of scouts hanging around bases under attack just looking for trucks to mess up. This would mean that they have to have escorts. This is another thing to do in the game.
I also like the idea that unused bases decay and turn neutral if the silo goes empty. This means that you could insert drop pod troops behind enemy lines on a locked-down continent and disrupt supply lines in order for a base to go neutral and open the warp-gate. This is also a whole new set of tactics and would mean that not even on a locked-down continent would it be completley safe to do nanite runs. What if that ANT that is moving on the base about to run out of supplys is intercepted by drop pod inserted saboteurs. This sounds like lots of fun and makes up for things to do on continents that are completely owned by one faction. I imagine that there could be entire outfits specializing on such operations once continents get owned by one faction.
I agree that you shouldn't have to refill the silos too often on unused bases but I really like that fact that they decay. It adds so much depth to the game. I am really happy to hear about this.

[GhostSniper]

If the ANT wasnt able to be picked up by transport I wouldnt mind doing a "Escort the ANT" mission.

[Nohimn]

let's just chill. We'll see how it turns out in beta. If it isn't good, then it will be removed asap, but we should trust the devs know what they are doing. let's just hope everything works out as planned. ANTs obviously MUST have an important role that can assist players in some way. if it doesn't, like I said, it will simply be deleted. let's just hope for the best.

[Moloch]

SJ said that if you set your veh permissions to only yourself, and you don't log off, and it isn't destroyed, you veh stays there. couldn't a peacetime base just have a stock of full ANTs sitting inside the walls somewhere, so you only have to drive 6 feet to the silo, and you still have 3 more full trucks to fill it with?
If they made the load inside an ANT decay whilst it sat, that would eliminate the loophole, but it would suck for the driver, cuz you'd be half empty when ya got home.

[SandTrout]

Not realy a loophole. If you have 6 ANTs sitting in a bases, they are lyable to be blown up by smokejumper and his steath-egineer. ANTs would be prime targets for sealthers and Reaver attack runs.

This is what I love about this game, there are so many ways to approach a situation.

[rockarfett]

If you have a vehicle and spawn a new one, the old one de-spawns. You can only have one at a time.

[Ludio]

PrivateMonkey, first of all calm down, lets not make this thread into a flame war.:love:

We know about that quote, but he then said something else a little bit later on:

It will eventually, yes, Mike. But we're talking hours. I shouldn't say "hours". The time is being determined, but is intended to be long.

This is very vague, but it gives us a rough estimation of the time. And some people dont like the 'hours' idea. Navaron also brought up the fact that it might be shorter.

k24q, you are wrong about the capture system. It doesnt specifically say anywhere that you cant capture vehicles with people in them, but unless the driver gets out and you hack it there are no garauntees that you can capture ANTs.

rockarfett, I believe that almost everyone agrees with you that combat rusupply runs would be fun and add depth to the gameplay. As for teams taking out ANT's on locked continents it would be very hard if not nearly immpossible. There are only two chokepoints for ANT's, the warpgates, and the bases. You could also try and take them out in transport, but lets look at how hard all of this would be.

In Transport: The roads in between could be used to ambush an ANT, but you would have to be damn lucky to get anything. Most people will also use galaxies so that would make it even harder to take it out in transport.

At Warpgates: This is your best bet becuase an ANT driver might not be working with a galaxy and once he refills you could destroy him. Then you would have to move because they would know where you are. If they were using a galaxy to transport it you probably couldnt take it out because they are protected in the warpgate itself and then they are moving fast and you dont know which side of the gate they are coming out of. There would be a good probability of seeing an ANT though because there are only 3-4 of these as opposed to 7-12 bases.

At Bases: Almost impossible unless you scout out many bases, possibly with many squads and are willing to wait a loooong time. You dont know which base is about to fall until you get there, and without vehicles that is going to take a long time. Even then the bases could have just been resupplied and you would have to wait a couple of hours before you get your chance.

If you want to take out a locked continent then you would probably have the same chances taking a base as you would of making one go neutral.

Moloch, having six people log in 24/7 and using up their one vehicle just so that they can sit in a base and wait for a saboteur is a loophole?

[rockarfett]

What I would do to make a base go neutral is this. Send in scouts to every base on the continent. There aren't that many. Find the one with the lowest supply level, preferably one far away from a gate. Then send in a bunch of MAXs to cut the ANTs of close to the base. With some luck, the defenders will not be prepared for such an attack and be slow with the response.
I don't say it's easy, but with a big outfit it should be possible. If it's better or worse than going for a base directly, I can't say. Time will tell :)

[quiet]

Shadowwolf, I am a different quiet.:)

How about ANT-bots, automated resource gathering like a good RTS would have. Players would only need to worry about supplying NTUs when ANT-bots are destroyed or a base is being heavily used. I think that would keep all the good features of NTUs and ANTs but make it so nobody would have to do the tedious work. CEPs could give some cool ANT-bot manageent controls too.
Just an idea :groovy:

Originally posted by Ludio
Moloch, having six people log in 24/7 and using up their one vehicle just so that they can sit in a base and wait for a saboteur is a loophole? [/B]

Players with no vehicle certs at all wouldn't be sacrificing anything though. Could become a standard tactic for pure infantry types to always bring a loaded ANT to a base and park it somewhere safe. Can reinforced armor drive an ANT? I am really curious what the ANTs are like, they don't sound like the dedicated ressupply vehichles they should be to me.

I like the idea of SuperAnts, a cert ANT that is either a little more combat worthy, or faster, or can hold enough NTUs to resupply multiple bases.

Does a faction have to control all the gun towers to lockdown a continent?

[Ludio]

quiet, no they dont have to control the guntowers.

I will revise my statement:

Do you call having six people log in 24/7 so that they can sit in a base and wait for a saboteur is a loophole?

That better? :D

The fact that they have to stay logged in is the worts part, just because it would restrict you from doing anything else on your computer.

And the saboteurs would get them.

I do like your idea though quiet, if you are planning on defending a base then bring along an ANT so that when your silo starts to run low it can be refilled without reinforcements coming through enemy lines. They would still be vulnerable to stealth hackers/engineers, but it is definately a possibility.

[TerraxNovae]

Not to mention the fact that since EVERYONE can drive them, you'll have to GUARD your ANTs if you have full reserve ones sitting anywhere... stealth hackers will ANTjack you.

[PrivateMonkey]

Ease up on the "emphatic" language please

First of all, "emphatic" is a real word :). Secondly, I have the right to write as I choose. You have the right to ignore it. Let's not take eachother too seriously here.



"stop further misinformation" - Just to clarify, you haven't played the game right? So you don't know anything for a fact then.

I'll take the word of those that have played it. Dave confirmed that Galaxies could carry ANT's in his letter. If I am to ignore what he says we might as well stop discussing PS; none of us have played it. We trust what Dave says to be fact, at least for the time being.





I'm not ignorant at all, I do however doubt that you will be able to amass 30 people like yourself on every server, on every needed continent, at every needed time. For the people not like you, it's going to be a pain in the ass to do, especially since they DO look at it as menial.

I don't catch any sarcasm in those numbers, so I'll assume you are being literal. In which case I have to say that those are huge exagerations. I make the safe assumption that 10 people armed with a galaxy and some air support could easily handle a single continent, regardless of what situation it's in. Remember, we are talking about "hours" in the absolute worse case between runs... 5 people could probably handle a single continent.



Assuming they can get galaxies. Point is, I bet they'd rather be taking troops into the heat of battle somewhere than going on a milkrun ever few hours on a continent they already have locked down.

As Dave pointed out quite well in the dev chat, a locked-down continent will hardly require "milkruns". In fact, I'd make a strong arguement that a locked-down continent wouldn't really need any resource deployers at all. One person could probably easily handle it. The only bases really requiring resources on a fairly regular basis will be those in the heat of battle. And when I say "fairly regular" I'm not talking about every 10-20 minutes. We'll see how it goes, but I think these concerns about it being a "chore" or a "milkrun" are entirely unfounded. I think people just have visions of what resource gathering is in RTS games, and immediately assume this will be the same. Without getting personal I think that is relatively narrow-minded. I can see this role being exciting and fresh. In fact, I doubt the devs would have included it were it not.


PrivateMonkey, first of all calm down, lets not make this thread into a flame war.

That didn't even cross my mind. We are not even close to insulting each other... we are just doing what every arguement must do: challenge each others opinions. So long as you keep it in perspective, there is nothing wrong about getting passionate in your arguement. :)

[Ludio]

Ok then, sorry for suggesting it. I just noticed all the bolded words and it seemed you were getting a bit carried away. Well, let the passionate arguing continue! :)

[Kriege]

I'm gonna pay to play as a ant driver and my empire will pay me to a ant driver. that sound good to me

[Whacko]

All in All this idea brings some good points....and for some of you that really need to see a long distance to travel to resupply something perhaps you should go try WWiionline for a few.....if you think Ants being driven will take to long you are gravely mistaken......the map isn't that big.....and in my eyes I am happy to see a game like PS that will finally support all aspects of resupply and attrition.......
for those that believe to just jump in and Kill.....you will have to consider tactics in the role of logistics.....Everyone will have choices as it appears to develop themselves...
I for one am eager to see the entire concept put to the reality of a true FPS/RPG SIM not quake and defiantley nothing like wwiionline..:)

[Zatrais]

I like the whole NTU idea. Adds a disadvantage to the defenders and some resource management.

I don't like the idea of bases that are not beeing used will eventually turn neutral... No useage shouldn't result in NTU drain.

would be reallly annoying if your sanctuary bases got neutral =P (i doubt the sanctuary bases will operate under these rules hehe)

[Hamma]

Man, if people think this is a flame thread... :lol:

[frog-]

why wouldnt you just make a macro to go fill the ant up and then come back and have it go every 24 hours or something like that. It would be really easy to do.

[Format]

:huh: I wouldnt find that easy. Making a macro that brings a vehical on a specific route, fill up and come back would really hard to create. Especially when theres a great chance that your ANT vehical will be destroyed or hi-jacked by another faction.

[Headrattle]

Another thing to factor in is the fact that no base is going to be completely unused for long periods of time, except on a locked continent. And even then the ones that won't be used are the ones a good distance from the warp gates.
Given the fact that these bases are close to a gate, means that they are much easier to resupply.

The stagnation of a base if a very touchy thing and I think it will take a little while for them to get it completely balanced.

But lets think about the drawbacks of NO stagnation of bases. People will forget to check the bases on a locked continent. So you will have some idiot get his 12th MAX in the last hour or something. Just before he Jumps through a warpgate he notices that the base lost power. Now the Warp gates aren't secure. Now the enemy sees their chance to rush through the warpgate with everyone they can because the bases won't be defended. Who wants to hang out on a Locked continent? Your blood, sweat and most importantly time are required carrying out the fight on another continent.

Wait, that isn't so bad is it? :confused:
Just means that you should be so kind as to resupply the base you are draining on occasion. And makes people pay for their stupidity.

Lets look at this another way.
Stagnation of bases means that you have to go out of your way occasionally to refuel the most out of the way bases on a locked continents. This becomes a habit for some players and the rest of the empire relies on these chosen few. And if no one does this, see above.

Wait, that isn't so bad is it? :scared:
Just means that you should be so kind as to resupply the base you are draining on occasion and as well as check all of the out of the way bases. And makes people pay for their stupidity and lack of micromanagement or teamwork.

I guess i do stand by my statement in saying that Locked Continents shouldn't have any stagnation on unused bases. But there should still be a drain when used.

(Am I even spelling "stagnation" correctly? Or am I talking about a nation comprised of male deer?)

And if you don't think there will be Locked Continents I say you should look at these MAPS. (http://www.pscommand.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Downloads&file=index&req=viewdownload&cid=3) Namely the last one.

It looks to me like Amerish will be locked by NC, Hossin by VS, and Forseral by TR. With the rest of them hotly contested.
Sure you could stop this by Dropshiping into these continents. Due to Stagnation and supply lines, and the fact that you will control only a few bases means that they will be taken relitively early.

But I do say this; Major groups should take care of a certain base on a locked continent. This can be a major meeting place, and a great rallying point for large assaults.

but then who knows.

[Toimu]

Originally posted by afex
if you need a full silo to run a base, then what the fuck is the generator for? this just really doesn't make sense to me. what was wrong with the old way?

Even nuclear power plants run off fuel. Those rods don't last for ever. Every gererator needs some type of fuel.

Originally posted by Mazelmavin
I agree, people want action and the ANT job is boring.

But boring only in of itself.

The job will get done, because poeple like teamwork. Even if your job is the boring one, it feels exciting in a team.

One guy is not going to go get an ANT and bring it back. No, this will be a job for a whole squad. The ANT will need a guard to make it back. Plus, it can fit snuggly into a Galaxy.

I forsee some squads will dedicate themselves to doing just this on each continent without any direction. Just running around refilling siloes. Its worth BEPs and its an important job. I think if they make it so you only need to do it once every 18-24 hours, it won't be so bad. Plus, (Like in JumpGate) going threw a hostile area to get something you need is fun! You currently have 2 was to fill an ANT, take it to a warpgate by land, or air. And maybe you can store filled ANTs in your locker.

7-10 bases on 10 continents, 3 factions, ETA via air from base to gate is ~5 minutes, plus fill time? I guess your looking at ~5:45-8:15, I guess that is alot of work even doing it only once a day.

[frog-]

i dunno in AC people made macros to buy stuff from one town , run across the map and sell it in another town. It would be pretty much the same thing. and if you die then you just make it so it repeats.

[Kyonye]

I'm one person who will not want to go and refill a freaking silo to keep a base running. I want action, I need action, thats how it is with me. Someone said that their will be groups who will dedicate themselves to bringing the ANT's from base to base filling up Silo's but we all know that they will get bored after a while and they will want to fight with the rest of the people. who will do it then? i'm hoping that it gets deleted in beta.

[Crimson Sun]

I have two things too say about this depending on the time you have uintil our fuel runs out.

If it is a day or so, the aspect will be much more strategical and fun, simply since most people will not sit around in an ANT waiting for the timer to get close to finishing so your not refilling the glass when its half full. Also, this will make it more critical. If your base is under attack and you are using the defense turrets or whatever it is (not the towers...), that will drain the silo faster, making every drop count. What sucks about the ANT is, it drives slow and doesn't have a lot of armor. But to the attackers, what does this mean to you? Easy EXP, right? The defenders would probably have an escort with it, esp. if traveling on ground. There's a battle or ambush scenario already. So the ANT won't be a terrible job, think of it like SOF2. You have to get to the briefcase (you have to get the ANT fueled up wherever), then get back before the timer is out. Now afex, you may hate the idea, but it makes the game much more realistic, and many squads will probably start targeting them. Now if I sounded stupid or contradicted myself, plz tell me.

[NapalmEnima]

I'm hoping that this feature works out.

I can imagine the devs arranging things so you don't really need to worry about ANTing unless the base is involved in heavy combat (either as a staging area, or under attack). And if that were the case, you'd see a lot of situations where doing the ANT thang was not at all dull... more along the lines of:

"OOOHHHHHH @#*$&(*$%*#&$^*#&$!!!"

Think about it. You're stuck in this relatively slow, none-too-tough vehicle, and the opposition knows that an easy way to shut down your base is to shoot that ANT out from under you. I don't think it'll be dull at all. Unless you define "dull" as "die screaming with a load in your pants".

:sick:

That was a little vivid.

Perhaps they'll set things up so that bases that aren't being used don't spend any NTU. They may even recharge (very slowly). That would take away the dull work (resupplying bases that were just sitting there) while still requiring you to resupply active bases. They might even reduce the total storage capacity, to compensate for the NTU regeneration... keep it so that a full silo will be consumed in an hour (or whatever time period they decide on) of heavy use.

[Crimson Sun]

Well said...

Think of the ANT's as the AMS's

Why do people find AMS's interesting and want to drive them?
Their important, they may involve getting into a battle, and it gives you a strategic advantage (you don't have to trek across battlefield and can just respawn).

So do ANT's

[Toimu]

Originally posted by frog-
i dunno in AC people made macros to buy stuff from one town , run across the map and sell it in another town. It would be pretty much the same thing. and if you die then you just make it so it repeats. Scripting is a perm-bannable offence in PS.

Think of how much action and how hard it would be to fill up an ANT on a continent with all 3 factions having bases on that continent! You call that dull? Other people will be trying to ambush the ANT squad so it will be easier to take that base.

But I agree that refilling silo's on a non-active base would suck.

I think a base being hit hard should use up a full silo of NTU in >12 hours. Filling up a silo every hour would be way too much. The more you do something, the more mundane it becomes.

[�io]

People are missing the big picture, they think it's a 24 hour job or something, it's not like you'll have to grab certs, implants and an armor for the job. Your silo is low, hop in an ANT take a precious 10min out of your oh so important 5 hour frag fest and fill it. If not than wait for someone else to do it and don't complain when you can't use your base anymore.

[PrivateMonkey]

Although I have been defending the existence of the resource system, I would like to point out one aspect of it that I strongly disaprove of. Dave said the following in his letter:

No certification is required to drive an ANT. Anyone can do it, but ANTs are neither speedy nor super-tough.

It's good that no certs are required, and low armor also makes sense. What I disagree with, at least in theory, is them not being speedy.

I have a personal suggestion that might be worth considering. Ideally resource deployers will use Galaxies to carry thier ANT's, I'm assuming. But just in case a spare Galaxy can't be found... I think it would be a good idea to make ANTs very fast vehicles. This can be at the expense of armor, but they should be quick. This will further help kill the illusion that resource deployment is a slow, tedious chore.

In fact, were I to have it my way I'd make ANTs small, speedy air-craft. No weapons and very weak armor... but fast as hell, and they can fly. That would be very inviting... just jump in, lift off, and speed away towards a warpgate. That would actually be fun, and would make deploying resources something to look forward to :) . The goal here is to make resource deploymet as fun as possible.

What do folks think about small, flying, super-fast, no weapons/no armor ANTs?

[Toimu]

Originally posted by PrivateMonkey
What do folks think about small, flying, super-fast, no weapons/no armor ANTs?
Bad idea. A no cert vehical needs to be the worst all around. The Devs wanted to have a no cert vehical for newbies to use. Thus the birth of the ANT.

If we are going to have a resource system, I think the ANT is a good idea. The only other way I can think of a resource system, is any vehical can store NTU.

But the ANT being a newbie no cert buggy, it's just right for that.

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

Dio is in Bohica now? I need to quit dropping off the boards so much :P

[Navaron]

Yeah, he's been in a while now. We're very happy to have him. Nice to see you back Q.

[�io]

Originally posted by Qanamil_Rafiki
Dio is in Bohica now? I need to quit dropping off the boards so much :P

Yeah, i can't join CDL to be with buddies and i'm not sure about NC so BOHICA was perfect. :D

[Navaron]

Hell, if we were humble, {BOHICA} would be perfect. ;)

[Navaron]

"Yeah, i can't join CDL to be with buddies and i'm not sure about NC so BOHICA was perfect. "

Nothing like being second best huh. Hmmm lemme look up the bylaws for ejection......


:p

[Kriege]

Originally posted by Whacko
All in All this idea brings some good points....and for some of you that really need to see a long distance to travel to resupply something perhaps you should go try WWiionline for a few.....if you think Ants being driven will take to long you are gravely mistaken......the map isn't that big.....and in my eyes I am happy to see a game like PS that will finally support all aspects of resupply and attrition.......
for those that believe to just jump in and Kill.....you will have to consider tactics in the role of logistics.....Everyone will have choices as it appears to develop themselves...
I for one am eager to see the entire concept put to the reality of a true FPS/RPG SIM not quake and defiantley nothing like wwiionline..:)

OMG flying in WWIIO was awesome, too bad I can only do it offline. Online...I manage to pull off 2 fps when theres not a life form within 200 mile radius.

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

Is there any information about these "ANTs and NTU silos" in one place?

New to me... and thanks Navaron.

[Navaron]

http://bohica.planetside-universe.com/index.php?action=news

We've got that and I'm looking for another one thatwas out there.....

[Navaron]

Heres a neat one I think alot of us missed.

http://www.planetside.info/MainCP/Articles/PostDevChat.shtml
and the officials....
http://planetside.station.sony.com/team_comments.jsp

[mistled]

Here ya go...

http://planetside.station.sony.com/team_comments.jsp

*edit*... dang it... too slow....

[Madprofessor9]

I personally like Privatemonkeys open mindedness on this subject
he's looking at this as the big picture and not just on a small scale. And for people to think this would be a boring job. I personally beg to differ, Sure to some of the hardcore fps gamers it could be boring. My advice to you is to stay away from it if it gets to boring. One of the wonderful things about PS is it offers so many different roles to so many different people. People who like flight sims will most likely stick to piloting aircraft people who love tanks will most likely stick to calvary tank roles. People who love fps will mostlikely stick mainly to infantry roles. But people who say the the quote "resource gathering" role will get dull. To some people that role is probley more exciting then going out killing a person then getting killed then doing it all over again. if you think about it that role can get just as boring as "resource gathering". In the ANT role at least you know the situation can change at a moments notice. One moment your refueling bases the next moment your under attack so if you think about it the ANT roles can't be that dull. Resuppling a number of bases sounds like fun as well as challenging reguardless on how ever many bases your empire owns. Thing to remember is keep the active bases toped off and then make a occassional run to the inactive bases. To call a person a newbie just because they find resource gather more interesting then run in guns blazing making kills and getting killed then restarting again to do it again. Is really narrow minded. But to call someone a newbie for a role he or she prefers to play. thats like telling someone you don't like there haircolor they chose that best suits there personality. But really gets me is people deeming people as newbies already. The Last time I checked we are all still newbies to PS.
I personally look forward to escorting galaxy's with ANT's in my Reaver anytime.
And I'm also wondering which empire PrivateMonkey is going with
so I know which one to join.
I personally think he would be a easy person to get along with on the servers and I personally would love to be his dedicated air escort.
Basicly it all falls down to what ever game genre someone likes they will play it reguardless of how other people may feel about it
and what ever the dev choose to do wether it be resource decay or not. I support them because they know whats best for there own game :). and I know I'll still be there to help out with what ever support I can :)
I appoligize if anyone feels flamed here I wasn't pointing at anyone in particular. And if I did I appologize

About the flying Scout like ANT I personally don't think that would be good I think a ant in a galaxy with 3 chainguns will at least give it a fighting chance in hotzones :). and with a reaver escort its chances of survival will be a little better then a no armored fast flying ant. but thats just my opinion :)

[Mazelmavin]

:stupid:

This game has a HUGE scope. As I once saw on the main site:
This is Planetside, not Yourside.

If you think something in the game will be boring, you are absolutely correct. It will be boring for you. But maybe another will find enjoyment.

I (and Dave for that matter)keep saying this and nobody is listening. Planetside is not just a FPS its a MMOFPS. There is a big difference between the two.

"Its like nothing you have ever played"
-SmokeJumper (Dave)

[Unknown]

I like the idea of ANTs. A few points:

Originally posted by Toimu
You currently have 2 was to fill an ANT, take it to a warpgate by land, or air. And maybe you can store filled ANTs in your locker. I highly doubt you will be able to do anything like that. If so then you'd be able to go fill up an ANT and then deconstruct it and carry it back on foot or in a friendly transport. That nearly defeats the purpose of the ANTs. I'd bet they are either non-deconstructable, or they lose all power when deconstructed.

As for inactive drain, I think it's a good idea, especially for locked continents. That sounds like the best of all places for inactive drain to apply, because the bases won't be very active. In order to keep a base you should have to pay attention to it, if only remotely, and in order to keep a whole continent you should have to keep all that much more attention on it. Plus it helps keep a continent from being totally abandoned after lockdown to encourage disputes with droppod'ers ("podders" -hehe) and also gives them another strategy for taking a continent back, as suggested before: target a base low on power and simply cut all supplies from reaching it. If it's low enough, that might even be faster than waiting 15 minutes for the hack, and surely quieter. No pesky "X base is being hacked" alert to the entire empire.

As for the specific numbers (ie. drain time, fill amount, resupply time, etc.) these are going to be constantly in flux for a while till they can set on a good balance. Suffice it to say, the devs know of our worries and will see any balance problems in-game and promptly fix them.

While I'm not saying abandon this argument, I am saying: trust the devs. Post your worries and give your input. The devs are bound to see this, nay, guaranteed to see this, especially with a thread this big on such a recent and important topic. So don't think you will go unnoticed and your fears will go unaddressed. The devs have it under control :D

[Madprofessor9]

I agree with Mazelmavin and unknown on this issue and personally I trust the devs will do everything in there power to make this work :)

[Mazelmavin]

Yeah,

I agree with Mazelmavin too.
:dance::spam: :dance:

[CDaws]

After reading through the thread I don't remember if any one brought this up. The Engineer/Sabatour, like myself, or a whole squad of them will be one of the ANTs worst probs if they don't have an escourt or if they are off guard. Strategicly deploying ACE packs all around the warpgates, though the devs said something about not being able to gatecamp. I'm not sure on how close you might be able to set them up even if you can. Shed some light on this please. As for choke points on the ground, this will be a real good way to keep the squads on there toes. Being an ANT driver will and won't be boring at times. It will all depend on the enemy forces if they will be waiting to ambush the convoyes or just let them slide. Only time will tell.

[Unknown]

Warp gates are, to put it mildly, HUGE.

...That wasn't very mild was it? Heh, my point being, it would be esentially impossible to deploy mines all the way around a warpgate. I'd bet theres a limit to how many mines a person can deploy or something. But even without a limit it'd take forever to put mines all the way around a warpgate (which, mind you, will most likely have a pretty constant stream of enemies who will shortly become very angry enemies should they be met with mines/mine deployers on exiting a warp gate. While it may be possible to mine the roadways, it's doubtful the mines will last long or hit their intended target, depending on how heavy the traffic is of course.

[Ludio]

I think everyone trusts the developers so we can stop repeating it in every post ok? :D

Madprofessor9, combat is not mindless killing until you get killed, thats what everquest is for. Planetside is unique among MMO games because of the complete focus on balanced pvp combat, no monsters. And it is not based completely on certs either. A good twitch gamer at lvl 1 should be able to kill an average/poor twitch gamer at lvl 20. The 20th lvl character can fill more roles, but the weapons dont make them better, just more flexibile. The point being that it is you versus an enemy at all times. It is like chess except for with more explosions. :D

Im not saying that ANT drivers wont have any combat, but they arent testing their skill against other people, just against the ground. This is fine for newbies (I do not mean this in a derogatory manner) who arent good at twitch gaming, but I think that even they will tire of it when there is no combat (locked continents). I am pleased that the devs are including so many roles for non twitch people (pilot/driver/medic/engineer). I just think that the decay system (especially on locked continents) could be a weakness in the game.

And yes we are all newbies when it comes to Planetside...one more reason to say :wantbeta:

[Saint]

Even on locked continents there is gonna be a lot of combat. I guarentee that as soon as a continent is locked there are going to be hordes of enemies dropping in to say "hi" or "uhhhhh na na nana na na nana" The ANT wont be a problem so everyone shut up about it.

[Madprofessor9]

excatly what I was saying ludio.
no I can't dub combat as mindless as its a integral
part of the game as will. As ANT's be a integral part of the game.
what I was mainly trying to get across was the fact that people
are already starting to dread the fact of the ANT
Because there afraid it will be dull and boring.
one thing to say about that is. How do they know
if it will be dull and boring. ANT drivers will always be on there
toes. Sure most dedicated ANT drivers might become the most
paranoid people as they will feel everyones out to get them haha :).
until we actually play the game and see how this will work. We can't dub anything being boring.
and when the devs get to balancing the issue there is no way people
can dub people newbies just because they find this role interesting.

[Headrattle]

Sure most dedicated ANT drivers might become the most paranoid people as they will feel everyones out to get them.

See, that is why I want to be part of a resupply team. I am already paranoid. So why not make that mental problem an asset?

As for the lack for action that people are complaining about.
Remember all of the C&C games on multiplayer? Unless there was an agreement not to, everyone attacked the harvesters.
I like the idea they are slow and not well armored. If you are carrying cargo you won't be fast. If you want armor, you won't be able to carry much cargo. It just forces the players to protect them. If they were fast, or well armored, what would be the point? Then they wouldn't need an escort and the teamplay goes away.

That is all I got. My child is fussy.

[Sputty]

They remind me of Dune's harvesters. They get pciked and transported by air. For all we know we could see a small army of transport galaxies in amny continents.

[Airlift]

I think the speed of the ANT should be slower than a buggy but faster than a heavy tank.

You don't have to worry about everyone driving one, becuase it's unarmed and poorly armored. However, it is important that ANT drivers have a chance to escape pursuit.

[Navaron]

I bet good money that the ANT is the free vehicle "you don't know about yet". It's unarmed and fits the description.

[�io]

The whole thing reminds me of C&C : Ren where you had to wait for the tiberium, i'm anxious to see if the ANTs will be as big a target as the harvesters. :)

[Toimu]

Originally posted by Madprofessor9

ANT drivers will always be on there
toes. Sure most dedicated ANT drivers might become the most
paranoid people as they will feel everyones out to get them I think ANT drives will be the main griefers target. If we have any griefers.

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron

I bet good money that the ANT is the free vehicle "you don't know about yet". It's unarmed and fits the description.I believe SJ said that already.

[Navaron]

Maybe he did, I wasn't sure that's what he was referring too but maybe. I didn't think he said so in as many words. I'd bet there's still some stuff we haven't seen.

[Ludio]

there is no way people can dub people newbies just because they find this role interesting.

Did I say that? I believe I said it would be a good role for newbies to FPS because they aren't very good at twitch gaming. This is similar to all pilots/drivers and medics/engineers. They dont have to fight so much. That is a cool feature in the game.

And the escort is going to be having most of the 'fun' when it comes to people attacking the ANT your driving. If your in a galaxy then all you get to do is watch.

[PrivateMonkey]

And the escort is going to be having most of the 'fun' when it comes to people attacking the ANT your driving. If your in a galaxy then all you get to do is watch.

Assuming there actually are escorts. I'm willing to be that over half the time there won't be.

[Ludio]

Assuming there actually are escorts. I'm willing to be that over half the time there won't be.

For half the ANT runs, probably, for half the attacks on ANT runs, unlikely. The ANTs will do lots of runs without escorts when they think they are safe, but when there is a risk they will probably have an escort or a galaxy or both. And if you dont have an escort then you will probably be screwed.

[jamikey]

geez, where the hell was I when This thread popped up?? Personaly, I think this idea is gonna be fun, kinda like capture the flag in bf1942 , I hope the ANT is A little faster then those max's though. :D

[Qanamil_Rafiki]

Thanks for the links Navaron and Mistled, very helpful. Didn't know they went ahead with the weather system as well, cool stuff.

Dio, I was thinking of C&C: Ren as well, I've been playing some of that online recently and harvesters are the perfect equivalent to these ANTs.

[�io]

Yeah and i remember when i played the demo the harvester was a big target, if you could keep taking out their harvester the other team was pretty much screwed. So if PS is like that the ANT job will be far from a boring one. :D

[Hellsfire123]

Ok all i read was the first post and im filled with an overwhelming urge to smack someone.

First off, you get experience from doing this. When is experience a bad thing?

Secondly it would be incredibly fun to try to break a seige with a much needed supply of power.

Thirdly what do you think todays generators run on? Air? no they need gas or another form of fuel. Just becuase the society is advanced doesnt mean they have inexhuastible energy.

Fourth, since when do all people in MMO games fight? id like to point out clerics/medics, and engineers. Do they fight directly? No. Are there alot of them? YES! They help the team, they get experinence, they are needed, THEY HAVE FUN.

Fifth, this breaks the monottiny of just running around shooting. Yes this is a FPS, but that will get boring after awhile.

Ok now ill go read the rest of the topic.

[Sputty]

I think ANTs willbe no bigger than a Lightning so they're prbably small. They can fit into a galaxy.

[NeoTassadar]

Great idea to make them. I thought there was going to be no way to breach defenses effectively (with boths side reviving, respawning, etc.). But know it's possible for a good old fashion medieval siege or modern blockade. No fuel in, defenses down, less enemy respawning, makes attacker and defenders equal.

[CDaws]

Warpgate + ANT (which) = Resources (there for) = Economy

W+A=R=$ so WAR = $ That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it. :D

Nice of the devs to sneek that one in there.