close quarter combat!!!

[cujoman39]

Who else thinks that indoor fighting will suck if there are no head shots? I mean seriously accuracy is not a question in a small hallway and the winner is the person who has the biggest gun or most life( because that sucks)

Tell me if this has been answered already!

[Sigurd]

Umm, in CQB style fighting headshots are only a factor of luck, and the winner usually Is the man with the biggest and best gun.

[cujoman39]

thats not true pistols and submachine guns are used in close quarter combat rather than assult rifles becouse of there abilty tohit a target accuratly and quickly head shots are a must against armored targets

plus if it come down to the person with the best gun and most life attackers wont stand a chance in hell

[Sigurd]

Actually sub machine guns are used because of their higher rate of fire. The accuracy of a sub machine gun is similar to that of an assault rifle at close range, however when your out in the field and the distances are longer, the rifle still has the range and accuracy whereas the sub machine gun loses its accuracy beyond 100m or so. And lights will have to be quick to survive against a heavy in CQB fighting.

[Bighoss]

this is where the shot guns come into play spray shot at close quarters will be nice

[Snake13]

actually submachineguns are used because they are more compact and manuevrable, and have lower recoil.

Also pistol cartridges have more short range stopping power then rifles because pistol rounds are much larger

Btw Special Forces personal (the ones that you say use SMGs so they can headshot people) are trained to aim for the center of your chest

[cujoman39]

not only that but submachine guns are used because they have shorter barrels making them less combersome and allows you to shot the target faster.

[Sigurd]

I stand corrected, however pistol ammo doesnt do more damage cause its bigger, its cause once it hits you it has a slower velocity so floats around inside you and does more damage as the bullet expands. Whereas rifle bullets have a much higher velocity and at close ranges pass right through you without doing a lot of internal damage.

[cujoman39]

Thats true but any bullet would knock some unarmored target on there ass 9mm or 5.56mm

It would be sweet if they had many types of pistols especally .357 and .44 calaber bullets and the biggest badass of all time the desert eagle 50. cal. baby!!!!

[Hellsfire123]

Ok, you people need to read a few books on the subject.

CQB can be fought with anything. I myself play airsoft (plastic bb's shot from stupidly realistic weapons). I can tell you from experience that the gun does not matter, its all accuracy and reflexes. Ask anyone i play with, just becuase i have a pump shotgun(bennelli M3 super 90, aka jesus) doesent mean im ever out gunned. I have fast reflexes and close to all my kills are upperchest or headshots. Which is funny, becuase of the welts.

"pistol ammo doesnt do more damage cause its bigger, its cause once it hits you it has a slower velocity so floats around inside you and does more damage as the bullet expands. Whereas rifle bullets have a much higher velocity and at close ranges pass right through you without doing a lot of internal damage."

Completly untrue. While it is more likely for the pistol bullet to remain inside the body, it is not true that rifles do less internal damage. Rifle bullets, do to their high velocity, leave the body with a shockwave effect. This effect has been powerful enough to liquify organs. Im not making this up, this comes from The Ultimate Sniper, a sniper train manual a friend of mine has. This has detailed statistics of bullets, rifles, and also photos of bullet trails through mock flesh (cold gelitain). The pictures of the high calibar bullets are amazing, as you can see where the bullet travles, splits, and where the shockwave hits.

"Btw Special Forces personal (the ones that you say use SMGs so they can headshot people) are trained to aim for the center of your chest"

They aim for the center of the chest for one reason. It HURTS. Even armored, a bullet has so much momentum it will take you off your feet, and knock the wind out of you. Someone who cant breath wont be shooting back.

[Bighoss]

I still think your all forgetting about the shotgun. That will be THE close quarter weapon

[Sigurd]

I agree with what your saying, but high velocity weapons dont work well at close range. In korea the marines had .30 caliber rifles but the velocity was so high that it would take 4 or 5 shots to knock down the enemy at ranges from around 100-200m.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Sigurd
Umm, in CQB style fighting headshots are only a factor of luck,

I disagree, it is mainly skill and a small amount luck.

If you are aiming at their head and you get a head shot it wasn't luck. If you were aiming at their body and you got a headshot it was luck.

The player who is better at aiming at an oppoinents head is statistically going to get more head shots, over time, than someone whos is less skilled at aiming for the head.

This is especially true for close quarters combat.

You can't tell me that there nothing wrong when a toe shot does as much damage as a head or chest shot.

[Sigurd]

yeah i see ur point however if the game makes you loose accuracy if your getting shot than the man who can spray the most bullets on target will win most likely, but if not youll be right, happened in CS a lot.

[mistled]

We can argue real world ballistics all we want, but in a game world, I'll take a shotgun while walking around those corners, thank you very much.

[SpartonX]

i agree, the NC shotgun is the reason why i'm going NC since i plan to be doing mostly indoor/close quarters combat. i wouldn't want to be the one looking down the barrels of that gun ;)

[Sigurd]

Good call

[Lexington_Steele]

Boo on the shotgun. Give me an assault rifle and I'l be happy. I wonder how the Lasher works exactly and if it can hit people around corners.

[mistled]

Boo on the shotgun?? What is wrong with you?? I, too, used to hate the shotgun, but there's nothing quite like coming around a corner and shooting someone in the face with a shotty. (btw - my standard weapon of choice is the mp5 in SoF2)

[Raganork]

I agree with you guys, the Jackhammer will be the king of weapons indoors, Until a NC Scattercanon MAX walks around the corner...

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Boo on the shotgun?? What is wrong with you?? I, too, used to hate the shotgun, but there's nothing quite like coming around a corner and shooting someone in the face with a shotty. (btw - my standard weapon of choice is the mp5 in SoF2)
You should stick with the MP5 mentality. :) I repeat, boo on the shotgun.

[Sputty]

The Mini-Chaingun will clear the halls though. That'd be one hard attack. And there's so much ammo they can jsut go crazy. BTW, indoor combat will probably be either stealthy and crouched, or a failure. I think good attacks will be slow stealthy-ish ones where popel just crouch up and shoot iwth the surprise and added accuracy from crouch they would almsot always win unless their gun sucked or armor was awful

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Raganork
I agree with you guys, the Jackhammer will be the king of weapons indoors, Until a NC Scattercanon MAX walks around the corner...
I think the pulsar will be nice indoors with its extra low recoil. It will be nice and easy to just hold down the fire buttong while the guy with the shotgun is busy reloading.

[Tobias]

Why allot of pistols have stopping power: Most police/army pistols use hollow point rounds for the reason that
1) they have way more stoping power then your standard copper jacketed round, and
2) Hollow point rounds are spent even after going though dry wall, meaning if your a cop and your in a populated building after a criminal, and you miss him when you fire, your round does not go though and kill the kid on the other side of the wall.

Just fyi, unless your wearing body armor, your not going to get knocked on your ass by any bullet, a shotgun maybe, but a pistol/rifle/smg will not blow you back, but it might out a new sun light in your back.

If you want stoping power with a rifle, use NATO rounds, they go crazy when they hit someone, better if they hit bone, but like hollow point rounds they are near useless against armor, if you want penatration, get jacketed rounds or use a magnum, and against kevlar use teflon coated rounds (yes, the same teflon that makes your pans not sticky and your nails shinny can make your bullets punch though body armor like it wasnt there! Flackjacket? Kevlar? Riot Suit (full kevlar with more metal plates)? goes though it like it was a hot knife though butter)


Slugs from a 12 or 8 gauge shotgun would also mess someone up I suppose, but I can not be sure as i am not a shogun person


As for where the special forces aim, as do cops and most people in the military, its two to the chest, and when they stop moving, one to the head to keep em down. This is because the chest is big with lots of vital organs, and its easy to hit, The head, on the other hand, is hard to hit.

[SpartonX]

i think it's safe to say all empires are equal, but NC is more equal when it comes to close quarters combat

[SpartonX]

Tobias, no offense, but i hate it when someone compares a game to real life, especially what ur talking about, just had to say that, oh ya, venu suck

[SandTrout]

The PS shotguns will be a ton more useful than shotguns in most FPS games. Why? Realistic spread.

Most games exagertate the pellet spread on shotgun in order to balance them at medium range. PS however will use a realistic spread in order to balance the shotgun's use at medium range. These shottys had the spread that most FPSs give them they would be just about compleatly useless outdoors. Neither the chaingun nor the lasher suffer from the kind of penelty given to the CS shotgun.

Besides, you need a couple certs to the the heavy assault weapons anyways, why should they be crapy at medium range?

[Kyonye]

the way i see it, the best man/woman will win.

[Flameseeker]

I have a friend, that is God at medal of honor. He creams me. I will have a BAR, he has a bazooka. He exhausts his bazooka ammo by killing me with 1-2 rounds for each kill. He then exhausts his grenades getting a kill for every 1-4 used. HE THEN HEADSHOTS ME WITH PISTOLS BY JUMPING ON MY HEAD WHILE I AM SHOOTING AT HIM WITH MY BAR. I am really not that bad at MoH, I was better than random people on Gamespy. Most of them were snipers that hid behind sandbags and fired, then ran into a corner and waited for someone to pop out again. The ones that used grenades, SMGs, and shotguns effectively did better. It's skill, not gun size. Browning Automatic Rifle vs Colt 22 Pistol? The pistol won 3/4 times. That's why I don't play with that friend much anymore. This is me: :sniper: , this is what he does to me: :blowup:

[Fire_Monkey]

NOONE has pointed out the obvious fact that the MAG Cutter is going to own your asses in close combat :p I mean here we go on this crazy debate about how this shell size creates a velocity factor that maximizes damage when in close environments, also stating that the bullet will not be effected by extraneous air molecules that could divert the original course of the projectile's path.:D

[Snake13]

Okay let me go dig up that post i made on ballistics along time ago

A rifle round is designed to engage targets at range, so it is smaller and has alot more gunpowder in it. This makes the bullet traver at much higher speeds, also the bullet is longer and narrower which helps its maintain speed of distance because it cuts through the air. Rifle rounds when they hit their target slow down and are balanced to tumble end over end creating a large cavity, or are designed to fragment from the force of impact (read: slowing down really fast, or impulse ) again creating a large cavity. but if you shoot someone at very close range with a rifle you might get the effect of overpenetration, because the bullet still has most of its speed (and therby most of its force) at that close of a range, the bullet runs the risk of just going right through your target without fragmenting or tumbling, or even transfering much force, leaving a nice clean hole.

Now pistol rounds are for the most part designed to do shock damage. Pistol rounds being much larger and wider slow down alot quicker. When a pistol round enters your target it slows down, therby transfering its energy unto the target, doing alot of damage to internal tissue. since pistol rounds slow down alot quicker once they hit something they generate a larger "impulse" .
However since they slow down alot quicker in a body, they also do the same in the air (in part to both the lower amount of powder and the wider profile of the bullet) meaning at range they bleed off speed quickly and therefore have lesss energy to transfer to the target.

Which is why a bullet stopped by a vest actually creates a larger impulse then one that penetrates, the vest stops the bullet alot quicker then tissue. Which is why getting shot with a bullet proof vest still does alot of damage, just it does it externally which your body can handle alot better (however a trama plate can reduce this damage signifigantly by absorbing the force)

note that you can also can a similar over penetration effect when using AP rounds on an unarmored target

By the way the "shockwave" effect is held up by a few rogue firearms experts but is dismissed as crap by the majority

[Fire_Monkey]

see what I'm talking about you clueless people, knives work better Hello my little MAG Cutter.


/me will cut up the next person who posts on here and says a gun will work better than a knife in close combat... why else make knives

[LesserShade]

gimmie that chainsaw knife =D

[mistled]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
You should stick with the MP5 mentality. :) I repeat, boo on the shotgun. I'm still in my mp5 mentality.... but not from two feet away when there are no headshots. ;)

[Flameseeker]

Knives are used by:
1.) Infiltrators, sneak up and knife.
2.) Silent runners, see above
3.) Silent run Infiltrators, see above
4.) Crazy 1337 players, jumping out of galaxies knifing everyone in sight, gulping down med kits. These are the people who have become bored with their super-efficiency with normal weapons. They need a challenge, so they switch to knifing. These are rare, thank god.

Pull a knife on me without being silent/invisible and I will unload either a clip of Gauss into you, or blow off your head with my MAG-Scatter.

[mistled]

And oh yeah, you guys bring your knives. Just make sure to tell me what base you're going to be at so I can start my conquest there. :)

[NeoTassadar]

I think the MP5 mentality is great, it's about the best gun ever made (overall). However, in close quarters, I'm kniving. I'm worried about in the hallways of bases, though, as the Infiltration suit still leaves a blur when you move.

[LesserShade]

i will definitely have a knife on me for close quarters combat... but that is definitely going to be reserved for sneaky kills. I'm interested to see how well it works.. i hope that it adopts a tribes shocklance flavor.. a very powerful weapon if used correctly.

However, i certainly wouldn't rely on it, i'll be sporting an smg, or shotgun mainly I figure. However I have to wonder about the amp.. i mean.. auto pistol.. might not be too shabby indoors

[txMaddog]

PKN all the way!!

PKN = Pistols, Knives and 'nades!! (plasma owns all!)

FYI Teflon does not help a bullet penatrate armor, it is there to prevent the bullet (usually made of a very hard metal) from damaging the rifling (those grooves in the barrel) of the gun.

Hollowpoints are illeagel for general War use because they were deemed too "inhumane". :huh:

[Kilgs]

Originally posted by Sigurd
Umm, in CQB style fighting headshots are only a factor of luck, and the winner usually Is the man with the biggest and best gun.

What Paladin Press "Do it Yourself SOF" book did you get that out of?

After a two-week High Risk Warrant Service/CQB Training during police academy, I can tell you thats not true.

CQB is based on efficient, violent reaction. Shot grouping and control is efficient. Body shots are taught due to the fact that you can place 2-3 accurate shots into a body for every 1.5 head shots. In addition, most victims of a GSW are dropped on the first hit due to shock.

Police teach body shots mainly, military (I hear) teaches "2 to the body, 1 to the head".

They do NOT "spray" a corridor. Even teh military doesn't teach this unless its in area denial. The new M16 has even had the full automatic option removed and now fires single or 3 round burst.

[Sputty]

In real life maybe so but they're talking about games. I think 80% of the time headshots are lucky 15% they're done by a sniper and 5% they guy who gets shot is going prone with his stuck out of a hole waiting to be raped IMO. Also, playing a close quarter battle with automatic, fast weapons will often be crazy death fest of spamming with weapons in a frantic bid to survive.

[Kilgs]

Originally posted by Sputty
In rela life maybe so but they're talking about games.

Good point. My bad.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by Sputty
In real life maybe so but they're talking about games. I think 80% of the time headshots are lucky 15% they're done by a sniper and 5% they guy who gets shot is going prone with his stuck out of a hole waiting to be raped IMO. Also, playing a close quarter battle with automatic, fast weapons will often be crazy death fest of spamming with weapons in a frantic bid to survive.

My kinda action :D

[TheGreatCarbini]

Well lucky for me I don't have to worry about indoor combat, being an enginer i can just wire up a hall to explode as you come through with those remote charges, hitboxes aren't too much of a problem with explosives.;)

Actualy, those basilisks seem small enough, i bet you could drive em down halls and just take people out like that.

[Sputty]

Nope. Vehicles can't go into buildings

[Zatrais]

Personally i think i'm going to be most comfertable walking down hallways whit both by chain guns ( TR AI MAX) firering as soon as i see an enemy, yeah yeah crap acuarcy i know hehe..... NC max shotty would be nice to but i generally enjoy miniguns more =)

[TheGreatCarbini]

Originally posted by Sputty
Nope. Vehicles can't go into buildings


Way to kill my dreams man...:)

[Hamma]

The only instance of a vehicle in a building is, some ground vehicle pads are underground and drive out through a large garage. However, it autodrives ;)

[Madprofessor9]

[Madprofessor9]

Yes on the shotgun slugs have a velocity of almost 1200 fps anywhere between 25 to 50 meters it has the same equvilent damage as a 20mm round from a M-61 alpha gatling system on most modern day US Jet Fighters. Or a M-197 20mm gatling system on the cobra gunships. The round weighs in at pretty close to 17.4 ounces on most standard magnum loads. And will go through the door of a car and out the other door on the other side. Most pistol and rifle caliber rounds won't do this. Except a 12.7mm or .50 cal BMG round. Or a .50 Cal AE round from a Desert eagle. Because these rounds are so heavy with there givin velocity. To prevent much of what is known as the tumble effect of projectiles. only other rounds that are capable of punching all the way through a car is the .357 mag (a magnumized 9mm) and the .44 mag cartridge (a magnumized 10mm). Now the 5.56mm (.223 cal) from which most american assault rifle fire. a projectile a tad bit bigger then a .22 cal with a velocity of over 2500 fps. The bullet is so light that when it hits a car door it tumbles. The round was basicly designed to injure an enemy rather then kill him. Theory behind this was why take out 1 guy in a war by killin him. When you can take out 3 guys if you injure the enemy. Injure one and it take 2 guys to carry the wounded out. Statisticly speaking of course.

Now standard pistol round. Are so to speak better with close range do to fact the .cal size versus a standard assault rifle rounds. The bullets are generally bigger and more spherical then a long pointy rifle round. Thus the standard FMJ (full metal jacket)
when it pentrates flesh it bounces off of bones creating more trauma to the victim. Now with JHP (Jacked Hollow Point) Like said before were design to come to a full stop. so you would be less likly to hit a innocent bystander after the round hit its intended target. But the up side to the this low pentration value is A massive Channel wound to a unarmored enemy. Do to the fact the bullet mushrooms on impact making the bullet bigger as it enters a body.

Now the topic where a bullet can knock you down when being shot is misunderstood really. Sure a standard 7.62x32mm round could knock you down if you where caught by surprise. but to tell you the truth its feels like a baseball hitting you at about 85 miles an hour. When I was shot in bosnia in 96 2 times by a 7.62mm from a ak I really didn't feel the first round. After the second one hit me in my lower side I realised I was hit. I thought it would hurt worse then it did. but after I was rescued. thats when I really started feeling the pain was when I was being fixed up
by the just outta school medical officers
but I thank god I didn't die that day in some 3rd world country and realised I was very lucky a few of my other buddies didn't make it out.

but thats a whole other story which I may go into at a later time
:(
Please don't flame me to much I was only stating what I know about firearms through experiance. and book knowlege

[Ludio]

This is starting to sound like the Sniper/AWP thread :rolleyes:

[Sigurd]

wow, great story and you sure as hell know your shit. Were you army btw..cause im thinking about joining up.

[Sol]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Boo on the shotgun. Give me an assault rifle and I'l be happy. I wonder how the Lasher works exactly and if it can hit people around corners.

Shooting around corners would be insanely hard to do, at least when I look at how its done in other games. I sure would fear teh 1337 vanu if its posibble tho.

[Madprofessor9]

I joined the army back in 91. I flew the AH-1 cobra for the 25th Aviation Regiment. For almost 6 years. I had the best time of my life in the army personally and If I could do it again I would be back there still doing it. But I was shot down one long day in febuary of 96. My gunner had been badly injured in the crash.
I was knocked unconsious for at least 20 mins when I awoke I had sprained my left ankle and broke all my toes on my left foot. As I was struggling to get out of the Craft. I finally floped out of the bird and went to help my Gunner out. as I was going to help him out I was shot twice in the back one hitting me in the shoulder blade and then the other one hitting me in the lower left section of my back. I stoped for a second and then blacked out.
next thing I know my Chapel and I are being carried by a Uh-60 blackhawk crew. To the nearest medical lz area.
after that I'm sent back home with a purple heart and a honorary discharge. but even after all that that happened to me out there I really enjoyed my work the army helped me be strong and fearless. Brought me up to a new level in my life and like I said if I could go back I would :)

[Sigurd]

wow, except for that whole crashing thing, which was tragic, sounds like army life is good for ya on the whole. Thats why i wanted to join, gonna do ROTC in college me thinks. A bunch of my friends are joining up too.

[Madprofessor9]

rgr that stick with it. Trust me it will all be worth it I promise you :)

[Sigurd]

lol, i got a trainer i work out with, he was in 'Nam in the Airborne. He says some crazy shit went down in the Army, but he said it was worth it too. Even though a lot of parents tell me not to do it, the shit i hear from the vets tells me im doin the right thing. Thx for the encouragement, i just wanna do my part like you did, and i think you did a great service to your country. I'm a bit more old school in my thinking, but there is no one i respect more than Vets, /me salutes you :thumbsup:

[Madprofessor9]

RGR that. If there is any advice I can give you its this
Boot Camp can make or break you. All you have to remember all boot camp is really just a big game. Just play the game and you will do fine. The service is a whole different world after boot camp
So don't let boot camp bring you down :)

[Sigurd]

yeah thats exactly what my trainer told me, thats why hes training me now. Gettin me to run in boots and do lots of high intense work outs. One of the reasons i wanted to join was to see if i could handle the physical and mental conditioning you have to go through. Maybe go Airborne or get Ranger certified lol, be an official snake eater.

[Madprofessor9]

Awesome I really wish you the best of luck. I respect you for going with what you want to do in life. And not let others try to bring to bring you down. I had friends in the rangers and let me tell you something there be best group of people I have ever met. There Strong and Fearless warriors. One of the most dedicated guys out there. So stick with it man and look me up when you get out :) we could talk sometimes you will problely still be able to find me in Planetside as a dedicated reaver pilot for which side I really don't know yet though hahahah :)
I salute you

[glsauron]

actually submachineguns are used because they are more compact and manuevrable, and have lower recoil.

You do realize that a pistol has more recoil then a rifle because the force is the same (for same round) and it's spread over a lot smaller mass?

Take a rifle and a pistol and compare them.


As for the issue in PS, the NC are gonna rock inside of buildings. Especially the MAX. Variable shot pattern and high dmg from any of them. Stealth hacker with a scatter-pistol is gonna be deadly.

[Sigurd]

wow man, that really means a lot to me, and i surely will look you up. Thx

[SKAHT]

All this talk about CQB is interesting but everyone is missing the point. A close quarters situation is all about teamwork. Having a pointman, making sure everyone watches the assigned field of fire, having not only a shotgun, but SMGs or Assault Rifles, Frag Grenades for corners, and a big ole missle for that MAX that you know is in there. I wanna see some comboy with a shotgun, or a Knife go toe-to-toe with those big SOBs. Course it could work, since none of us have played the game, we could all be wrong.

[Kilgs]

Originally posted by Madprofessor9
[BWhen I was shot in bosnia in 94 2 times by a 7.62mm from a ak I really didn't feel the first round. After the second one hit me in my lower side I realised I was hit. [/B]

Your other post said 96. Which was it?

[Madprofessor9]

sorry It was a typo was feburary 13 1996, I was discharged in on march 17th after recovery. I appogize for the typo

[KabuX]

I can't believe people still think headshot and hit boxes are all about luck. I agree there is a measure of luck involved when there is a random headshot, but in general shots to the head are aimed.

Well in CS at least.

KabuX

[Snake13]

You do realize that a pistol has more recoil then a rifle because the force is the same (for same round) and it's spread over a lot smaller mass?

I'm not sure exactly what your trying to say but none of the ways i can interpret this are correct

Pistol have higher recoil then rifles: really depends on the pistol/rifle, mass comes into play only in the fact of mass of the gun vs the force of the bullets explosive charge (minus any recoil absorbing equipment in the gun)

Pistol rounds and rifle rounds are drasticly different, pistol rounds are heavier with much less powder, and the powder is really what matters when it comes to determining recoil.

Submachine guns (which is what i was talking about i don't know why your quoting me and then saying pistols) have a much higher mass compared to its ammunition then rifles. The MP5s that the police use have very little recoil.

As for a shotgun slug having the same power of a 20mm minigun system I don't have any personal knowledge of that but Its highly questionable, considering the recoil would probably break you shoulder if not do worse. considering a .50 cal is 12mm and used in a rifle has been known to cause shoulder injury to shooters not trained for it, a 20mm which is almost twice as powerful should not the same as the gun most commonly used by least trained of shooters (slug shotguns are the favorite weapon of the casual sportsman.

[SandTrout]

I still haven't seen the link to the dev chat that said there are no headshots. Please link this.

[rockarfett]

As the caliber of a round grows, the volume of the cartridge grows with caliber^3 (roughly) if the proportions are the same. This would mean that if you double the caliber, the volume of the round would increase 8 times (2x2x2). The energy of the bullet would be proportional to the volume of the gunpowder that explodes (more powder == more energy).

A 20mm caliber is 1.67 times wider than a .50. 1.67^3 == 4.66.

I.e, a 20mm caliber has roughly 4.5 times the kinetic energy of a .50 cal round. This is of course a rough approximation. There are more things that affect this.

And of course a shotgun comes no where close to 20mm cannon rounds.

[rockarfett]

Here's link to a thread I found where SmokeJumper says there are no hit locations.

http://boards.station.sony.com/ubb/planetside/Forum2/HTML/001729.html

[SandTrout]

Rawr!!:chomp:

You know what, I honestly don't think I'll spend $10 a month on a game that doesn't even include the most basic modern advances like hit-boxes.

I'll wait for the next MMOFPS. I honestly will. I'll survive with smaller multiplayer games, or just books if I have to. Just because PS is the first in it's genre, doesn't mean it will be the best, and as long as I've waited for this game, a few more years wont matter as much as it should.

I'm sorry, but I'm very adiment on this point. Maybe I should try to get back into DAoC and try to find a class I like.

If Planetside remains without headshots, it will be farewell to you all, my outfit, and my confidence in smokejumper as a dev.

[Duritz]

Wow, that's completely sad. You think that headshot's are that important? And to insult a man for doing his job? I honestly hope that you are just playing around.

You should at least apologize to dave for saying something so callous. His job is to make this game as good and succesful as it can be, and removing hit boxes does that. Not only does it reduce lag, it makes the game more strategic, newbie friendly, and faster paced.

With a cone of fire system used, headshots are far less useful at the ranges that fighting will mostly be occuring at. This makes the battles stay at those distances. I personally belive that strategy is made and broken by distance. If I have 1 mile between our groups, I can use many different strategies to approach you, and hopefully obtain an earned advantage. However, if our groups are just around the corner from each other, and headshots were in, then skill would always win.

The only times it would be useful would be inside, and then vets would own newbies too easily to make a learning curve slight enough for an MMOG, or newbie-friendly, which makes the MMOG world go 'round, and sniping, where the snipers take full advantage of it. Plus, snipers will probably be firing from longer distances than in most other games, so the cone of fire would still be too large to let you neccesarily hit the head that you are aiming at. So, it would be luck aiming for the head at distance, not necessarily completely skill.

Another thing is that headshots slow cone of fire games down. To obtain the headshot you HAVE to kneel, and if everyone kneels to get headshots, it turns into the whole p-word argument again (OMG I'm not going through that bull again).

With the cone, headshots WOULD become more of a luck issue, because random head shot would happen more often.

But if you seriously feel that way, then maybe you need to refrain from doing a lot of work any time soon. You sound like you are on the edge.

Anyway, man, its just a game, be respectful to others, and try to look at the situation from another point of view. It'll still be a good game, even without headshots, heck you never know, it may be better.

[mistled]

Originally posted by SandTrout
You know what, I honestly don't think I'll spend $10 a month on a game that doesn't even include the most basic modern advances like hit-boxes. Whoa man, at least drop by one of our houses and play it first before you decide. You may be pleasantly surprised.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Duritz
The only times it would be useful would be inside, and then vets would own newbies too easily I'm not sure I buy this or not. While I see how it would be a bigger problem than smaller games, I don't see this being a huge problem. I've never had a problem getting into any game because the vets were too good... well... unless I'm playing on SPD's server... then Sandman tends to kick my ass pretty hard.... or Bullet-Tooth.... damn those guys are good....

*edit* - btw - I've talking about SoF2:CTF above.

[SandTrout]

I'm 100% seriouse. Some games don't need headshots to be fun, but in this kind of game I consider it important. Maybe i'm being too picky, but haveing to settle is realy starting to blow.

What I said about Dave may be harsh, but I think Tribes 2 could have been a much better game than it was. I loved Tribes 1, and was addicted to it for a couple of years. Tribes 2...well...yeah. I know it was probably the fault of marketing, but either way I'm makeing a stand. I'm not going to buy any games that end up removeing something that was allready implemented just so they can make the god-damned leaning curve easier.

The removed headshots from the game. Its not that they're just decideing that it's not worth the effort, but they think that it will help the sell more at the expence of gameplay. I don't want to sacrifice any more gameplay to Marketing and Management. If the game takes another year to be released, I'm fine with that, they are makeing it better. However, I draw the line at when they make an effort to remove a signifigant factor from the game.

I'm just growing tired of dealing with crap like this. Mods that are f***ing hoaxes, lack of cheat protection that seems almost intetional, and now this. Just be honest and you wont piss me off, because when I'm pissed off, I'll do my best to convice you it't not worth doing again.

Ranting, it does a body good.

[Snake13]

good, someone who would behave so immature and childish would probably not bring anything to the game anyway

they way headshots are implemented is completely retarded in games like counterstrike, IRL you fire at the chest becuase its a larger target and its takes you down just as fast.

[Arshune]

To all you people talking about chest vs. head: if you want to get technical, firing at the chest will take someone down FASTER than shooting them in the head (with a rifle, anyway). With a rifle, a headshot will pass right through and not do enough damage to the brain for an instant kill unless it pierces part of the autonomic nervous system (the part that controls all your involuntary functions), which is a VERY small area. If you don't believe me on that, go look up the case of Phineas Gage, a railroad worker who had a pole blown through his head while blasting a hole in the ground. He was alive and more or less fine afterwards (at least as much as someone with a 2 inch hole in their head can be). A pistol is a different story though, a headshot from a pistol will again instantly kill if it hits the autonomic nervous system (like all things will) but it will usually cause a lot more damage if it misses. Even so, without hitting very specific, very tiny parts of the brain, the victim will still have some amount of life left in them. Though most bullet wounds to the head are eventually fatal, the operative word is EVENTUALLY.

Chest shots, however, are usually instantly or very quickly fatal as the heart and lungs take up a considerable amount of space in the chest cavity.

Biology lessons aside, I fully support the devs' decision on this. Headshots make FPS games boring, too often you'll get capped by someone who either got lucky, depended on that ONE SINGLE SHOT to get you (which is a KIND of luck), or cheated. When's the last time any of you can say you played a game that tried to be more of a game than RL? Remember back in the day when reality had no place in our little fantasy worlds? Look at Tetris...it makes no sense whatsoever, but it's still one of the best games ever. Realism is all well and good for Mr. Tom Clancy, but I'll take my twitch gameplay in my sci-fi universe over real-life ballistics and a connection to the real world ANY DAY.

Whew, that was a long post. :brow:

[Duritz]

What I'm saying is that there ARE problems with having headshots in a massive game, even if you discount the noobs, there are problems with large scale, region-specific damage games. Accuracy isn't what decides if someone is better than another at this game. Maybe you are looking at the idea that simply cursor moving skill is what makes a better game player. Maybe you are generalizing genres too much. All FPSes aren't alike.

Take Tribes 2 vs. Ghost Recon vs. UT2k3. They are all FPSes, but there are many sub-genres that we see. Also, genre mixing is a very important aspect of the whole picture. Tribes 2 has its own sub-genre, its unique styles of play totally change how it works as a game. Ghost Recon is an extremely realistic tactical op shooter, its realism is what draws many peopke to play it. UT2k3 is a super-twitch game. It simply involves who has the fastest trigger, best twitch skills, and the best aim. None of these advantages and disadvantages necessarily means that the game is better or worse but each's quirks give it its place.

For the type of game that Planetside is, a tactical/ twitch/ MMO/ vehicular/ all-terrain combat FPS, it doesn't need headshots, in fact I believe that it may be better off without them. If it were included then the veteran outfits would simply own everything and thats not cool. Even if I'm one of those guys its not cool.

And also, "giving in" to letting noobs have a better chance is not worse for the game, its better. The more people the better the game is, and the fact is, is that most of the people will be twitch noob. Leveling the playing field is best for gameplay, not only marketing.

I don't want to offend anyone here with this, but this is directly related to way people use the -isms. This "classism" is a group trying to use their already aquired advantage in every way possible to keep it. The people who are skilled at headshots, of course, want headshots, because that will let them have more fun, but the people who have to learn to get accurate don't do as well.

Who says that only the people with the uber skills should have fun killing others. Who says that people with too much time to practice should have all of the fun. It's skill based, but not skill driven.

People use their influence on the "society" to make headshots more "advanced." In reality, people are simply trying to rationalize their maintainable advantage. I'm not a bad twitch player, I do very well in UT2k3 and in tactical shooters, but I'm a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. And I don't think this game is designed to be all about the skill in accuracy. It's about overall team-play. And you know what, you might need a noob in your team one day.

[ABRAXAAS]

:clap: well done old boy

[Zoolooman]

SandTrout is placing a lot of energy into this headshot problem.

My question is for him:

Are you willing to give up what *may* otherwise be a very enjoyable game because it doesn't include a SINGLE feature of somewhat debatable merit?

A feature that without testing you can't even claim is necessary for a good time?

If so, I hope you enjoy playing whatever else comes out in the future.

If not, I at least suggest you give it a try at a friend's house sometime after release date. You never know.

Edit addition:

Duritz, if the game doesn't have ANY FPS skill growth involved, then it's replay value will be low. A level playing field makes it a big RTS and not an FPS. Veteran players should be better aimers, better pilots and better drivers. This is what makes a FPS fun. You can pick it up and play, and get kills, but the long term skill growth plays a large portion of the replay value in a FPS.

I want to look forward to the time where I can be a BETTER Planetside player. I want to take down 4 people of equal equipment before they take me out. How? With skill. Tactics is the counter to skill, and well built tactics win in any large scale factor (people command and help take bases, organization wins the war), but the enjoyment of the "grunt" is in the nitty gritty, and that means it needs FUN skill based fighting.

[Arshune]

If you sit down and put a lot of thought into it, not having headshots requires you to have even more skill than you would otherwise have. Once you got the motion down to crouch and burst someone in the head down perfectly, CS wasn't challenging OR fun anymore, was it?

No headshots means that people who are truly good at the game will be better at both aiming AND dodging, because there won't be one-hit kills for them to fall back on. Regardless of what a person tries to do in an online game, a good portion of it is due to pure luck because of the way that human perception and netcode work together in tandem to screw you up. Games that put too much emphasis on player skill growth end up stagnating and not being fun when that growth is fully achieved. Heck, even RPGs stagnate and get boring when the top level of growth is achieved, because there's just nothing left to "achieve." The pick-up-and-play appeal will end up drawing people back to it even years later, I can guarantee that.

[Navaron]

"If you sit down and put a lot of thought into it, not having headshots requires you to have even more skill than you would otherwise have. Once you got the motion down to crouch and burst someone in the head down perfectly, CS wasn't challenging OR fun anymore, was it? "

Ummm no. I'm sorry. I can't agree with that.

"SandTrout is placing a lot of energy into this headshot problem.''

Hang on, I can understand this. Lemme 'splain my pov. I can't justify not buying a game for 50 bucks that has this many features that are amazing and on this scale. I can however understand not paying a fee every month for a game that doesn't have alot of the features I like, and even deem neccesary. If there are enough other features to offset that then you can swap out the bad for the good, but if you don't find them......

[Duritz]

If it is all about the skills, then why do you need the headshots? Can you not be better than noobs without them? If you can't, are you really any better? If you can, then what's the problem?

[mistled]

Originally posted by Arshune
No headshots means that people who are truly good at the game will be better at both aiming AND dodging, because there won't be one-hit kills for them to fall back on. I don't see how the vet will be better at aiming if all anyone has to do is hit anywhere on the body and it all counts the same. Don't even bring one hit kills into this because there aren't any. I think that someone who has been playing for a long time should be rewarded for being able to hit someone else in the head by headshots doing more damage. They don't need to be one shot kills, but they should hurt more. Especially when the rest of the body is more heavily armored.

Originally posted by Arshune
Games that put too much emphasis on player skill growth end up stagnating and not being fun when that growth is fully achieved. Heck, even RPGs stagnate and get boring when the top level of growth is achieved, because there's just nothing left to "achieve." The pick-up-and-play appeal will end up drawing people back to it even years later, I can guarantee that. So you want to compensate for this by removing everything that you can "achieve"?? How does that help anyone?? In a battle, shouldn't the great tactical commander with great shooters beat the great tactical commander with only decent shooters?? Yes he should.
You can talk about how tactics win the war all you want, but when the special forces are recruiting, they don't want the guy who can only hit his enemy in the leg.

[Zoolooman]

Oh, my comment isn't about the headshots Duritz.

I just think that a game should be designed to be ACCESSIBLE to a newbie (aka the weapon works and the vehicle works and the design allows a person to give it a good day and get into the game).

But a game should never be designed to LEVEL the playing field (take a newbie, and make him able to beat a 2+ year vet right off the bat). Then what's the fun in being a grunt?

See? :]

[mistled]

Originally posted by Duritz
If it is all about the skills, then why do you need the headshots? Can you not be better than noobs without them? If you can't, are you really any better? If you can, then what's the problem? Doesn't it take more skill to hit someone in the head three times than it does to hit them anywhere one their body three times?? The point is that without headshots, there is no reason to have skills. I can become a decent shooter who can manage to hit anywhere and be just as effective as someone who can put two bullets in your chest and one through your head with a pistol by reflex.

[Zoolooman]

Oh, and on a note for headshots. I'd definately like them, but I won't DIE without them. But for 10 bucks a month, I do hope that in the future after game release they will give it some thought.

[Arshune]

If someone requires more shots to be taken down, then it requires more skill to kill them. Making one good shot with careful aim isn't especially difficult for most gamers considering that we all have dexterity like a spider-monkey anymore, but making 15-20 aimed shots in a row would be pretty hard even for a seasoned player. That's my reasoning, anyway.

Please don't try to twist my words, I never said I wanted to remove achievement, I just said depending PURELY upon achievement for all the entertainment value of a game would be bad. Part of the reason I find PS intriguing is because it's an FPS with character advancement.

You can say that headshots don't have to be an instant kill, but if they're included at all they'd end up being a "shortcut" to a kill.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Duritz
If it is all about the skills, then why do you need the headshots? Can you not be better than noobs without them? If you can't, are you really any better? If you can, then what's the problem?
It is not a matter of separating vets from noobs. It is a matter of separating the good from the great.

If you have two marksman that can consitantly hit a target at 100 yards, and it is clear that a noob couldn't consitantly hit the original target. So you can separated a vet from the noob, but how do you differentiate who is the better of the two marksmen?

You give them a smaller target. Whoever can hit that smaller target more often is the better marksman. Think of headshots as a smaller target to seperate the good from the great. It is not too tough to hit an enemy. It is a bit tougher to hit the targets head.

[Zoolooman]

The problem I see with arguing about a game that hasn't even been released yet is the "developer is always right" mentality some people have.

Any decision a developer makes CANT be disputed in some people's minds. Their game has to be wholly right from the start, and the developers have to be perfect, for them to be wholly confident in the gameplay. Some of the arguements of this thread REMIND me of that sort of attitude.

"Headshots shouldn't be in the game because of *insert half-hearted reason*."

What if the developers are wrong? What if it DOES increase skill? Shouldn't it be tried?

Maybe it isn't implemented not because of GAMEPLAY reasons, but because of TECHNICAL or maybe even time constraint reasons.

Maybe the developers would love to add the DEPTH of hitboxes (feet damage is less than torso damage which is less than head damage), but they can't because of time or netcode or engine restraints.

To argue that it would be a bad thing before the CURRENT gameplay can even be assessed is a mistake. When the game is released, and people can confidently say, "This gameplay is good as is," then I'll argue to keep out headshots, unless the feature would OBVIOUSLY increase gameplay in a majority of aspects.

Now my personal opinion? They should have headshots. But the jury is still out on if it's a very valid opinion, since NOONE has played the game.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Arshune
You can say that headshots don't have to be an instant kill, but if they're included at all they'd end up being a "shortcut" to a kill. They should be a shortcut to a kill. That's the point of being good enough to shoot someone in the face. What do you want a grunt to work on once they can hit someone's arm consistantly?? The leaders can work on strategy all they want, but the grunts need a way to show that they are better than that guy who just sprays the room and hopes to hit you in the foot a time or three.

[Arshune]

I was basing my opinion on my experiences with other FPS games, because typically there are at least SOME similarities between any two games of the same genre, no matter how different the details may be. I usually don't like headshots, because they make the game feel too calculated and less natural (or twitch if you like). I've always been a fan of games that are mostly reflex, and with no region specific damage that puts a lot more emphasis on reaction time than precision. You could argue that no region specific damage favors the guy with the heaviest armor and the biggest gun, but come on...most FPS games do that anyway. If you're injured when you find someone in some other random game, you're just as likely to get schooled as you will be in a game without specific hitboxes.

Speaking of the devs, not having headshots makes balancing out the weapons much easier on them I'd imagine, and therefore there's less of a possibility for them to screw something up and make a weapon like CS's awp...or the rocket launcher from the old Quake games.

[SandTrout]

I'm not looking for 1-shot kills with an AMP. I just want headshots to do some more damage than a legshot. Most games have a more intracit damage system than just head and body. Why would it make that much of a diference to have a headshot just do 1.5 times the damage of a body shot?

If it is all about the skills, then why do you need the headshots? Can you not be better than noobs without them? If you can't, are you really any better? If you can, then what's the problem?

You are thinking tactics mostly. When all you have to do is hit them at all, you only need a very minor level of skill, andthe rest is tactics.

The head is a much smaller target than the rest of the body, and the skill comes in when you're trying to hit that small target. Yes, we will still be able to defeat newbies, but once they become a decent shot in just being able to hit the enemy, doesn't matter where, then all of our practice means diddly squat.

And what about when you sneak up behind a guy in a group? Shouldn't a few well lined-up shots be able to take him out better than just running and gunning at the group? I want rewards for my efforts and ablility, thats the essence of the FPS.

I am willing to give up a potetialy good game that costs $10 a month because I'm just tired of haveing to settle, very tired. Is it so wrong to just want one thing that has the gameplay that I can realy get into?

Games that put too much emphasis on player skill growth end up stagnating and not being fun when that growth is fully achieved. Heck, even RPGs stagnate and get boring when the top level of growth is achieved, because there's just nothing left to "achieve." The pick-up-and-play appeal will end up drawing people back to it even years later, I can guarantee that.

RPGs have nothing to do with player skill growth, they use character skill growth, there is a very big difference. Planetside features a limited character skill growth via certs, but it is mostly based on the player's twitch aiming skill and tactics.

BTW: Thanks for rephraseing my thoughts for the rest of them Mistled.

[Arshune]

I know there's a difference between human skill growth and character skill growth, the point I was making is that putting the emphasis on said growth rather than the twitch gameplay would detract from the game. Why does everyone keep missing that? I need to stop being so ambiguous. :(

[SandTrout]

Games that put too much emphasis on player skill growth end up stagnating and not being fun when that growth is fully achieved.

Less ambiguous and more misspoken it seems like. The diference is that player skill growth doesn't have a cap on it. even if you can ge a headshot in .5 seconds, there's always room for improvement with humans(until you get to the point that nerve conductions cant go that fast, but what are the chances?).

[Arshune]

I don't think you're reading what I wrote right. Yes, I used player skill and character skill in the same paragraph, but that doesn't mean I'm saying that they're the same thing. I was saying that getting extremely good at an FPS is the same as reaching a level cap in an RPG, it starts to get boring once you reach your "peak." And while there isn't a specific limit to human potential, there is a plateau most people hit where they don't get a whole heck of a lot better at something.

[Navaron]

"And while there isn't a specific limit to human potential, there is a plateau most people hit where they don't get a whole heck of a lot better at something."

And they'll hit that a lot faster the way you're suggesting. It's gonna take a whooole lot longer to master capping someone in the dome regularly that it will blasting them in the chest.

[Arshune]

I guess it all just boils down to your personal preference, really. No matter which way they go, someone won't be happy. Also, up to now we've been arguing this like it was a pure FPS game, imagine how much it would suck if someone in a gunship could just hover with their gun at head level and turn their ship in a circle while spraying, getting highly damaging shots on your whole squad. That would only work on a flat piece of land, but it'd still be frustrating. The way I was looking at the situation, if newer players posed more of a threat then there'd probably be a lot more skill development because there'd be a greater element of challenge available and at more regular intervals than a game where you'd have to find a decent clan to get anyone good to play against.

[Navaron]

"imagine how much it would suck if someone in a gunship could just hover with their gun at head level and turn their ship in a circle while spraying, getting highly damaging shots on your whole squad."

A) You're a moron who forgot to crouch

B) It's gonna kill you no matter what

C) That pilot is a farkin pimp and deserves the BXP

"if newer players posed more of a threat then........ "

You're forgetting about all the other vets who are gunning for your ass. We've discussed before how no noobs will ever be alone.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Arshune
The way I was looking at the situation, if newer players posed more of a threat then there'd probably be a lot more skill development because there'd be a greater element of challenge available and at more regular intervals than a game where you'd have to find a decent clan to get anyone good to play against. I get where you're coming from, but what I don't see is what skills you want people to work on if aim doesn't matter much (since we should all master aiming fairly quickly). I personally would love to infiltrate bases and sneak around and kill people and generally cause chaos in a base. I think this would be a great skill to work on. But.... what's the point of being able to sneak up behind someone in their base if it still takes me 5 shots to kill them?? I just don't see how it can be justified that a shotgun blast to the back of the head from four inches away should not at the very least take away half your life.

[Arshune]

Well, look on the bright side...since none of us know exactly how much damage something will do, there's no way to say for certain that a shotgun blast to the back of the head WON'T kill someone. One of the previews I read said that a guy in an infiltrator suit went in and hacked their base then knifed people to death...I'd imagine that since the secondary knife mode makes noise (that's what I read, if I'm wrong correct me) and would call attention to you when you're trying to hide, it'd be a pretty high damage attack. Also, I guess I shouldn't say "skill" when I mean reaction time. Sort of a "he who shoots first also shoots last" kind of thing.

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by Arshune
Well, look on the bright side...since none of us know exactly how much damage something will do, there's no way to say for certain that a shotgun blast to the back of the head WON'T kill someone.

But this also means it can kill them just as easaly if you shot their legs while runing at them(if all pellets hit). Headshots allow a skilled player to use some weapons very effectively while newbies stick with the easier to use weapons. While this takes somewhat more effort to ballance, the result is a more thurough balance.

[Arshune]

Come to think of it, it would probably depend on what armor they were wearing. If you stabbed a MAX with a knife I should hope it doesn't die, but if you did it to someone in standard armor or agile armor maybe they should go down. Same would go for everything else. Also, does anyone know if empires have different body-armor values? I know empire specific MAXes do, but what about just regular suits of armor?

[SandTrout]

Only MAX armors are different. All others are the same stats with different models.

[Lexington_Steele]

Arshune, and all of you who are against region specific damage, just ask yourself this two question:

Should a foot shot do as much damage as a chest shot?

Should there be one hit kills for a bolt driver shot to your toe? (a bolt driver shot is a one hit kill on standard armor)

I know I will be real mad if I die cause someone shot my toe off.

[TheGreatCarbini]

In "real life" if i shot you in the foot you wouldnt be dead, but i gueretee you wouldnt be able to walk for days, do you want them to put crawling in too?:)

::franticaly looks for his damage bar but cant seem to find it::

[mistled]

I just hope it doesn't tell me where I got shot at and I'll pretend that the sniper shot me between the eyes. :)

[Arshune]

That'd make me a little mad, yeah...but if bolt driver is only OHK on standard armor then who cares? You can use the VR training to get yourself up to the point where you never even have to see a bolt driver in standard armor, can't you? And if you can't, how long could it possibly take to get an armor cert? Probably not that long if you found a good group somewhere I guess...but then again, that's only a guess, so I dunno. I wonder if any questions along these lines were planned for the shoutcast?

BTW-Kudos to all you guys for not letting this degenerate into a massive flame war, never before have I been on an internet forum where an intelligent discussion can occur if two parties have different opinions. I could get used to this. :thumbsup:

[Zatrais]

Yeah, posts here pretty much always stays civil =)

But annyways, having hiboxes in a game means more calculations on where the bullet hit and how much damage it does. It might be that present day technology can't handle all that calculation when battles come up in the 200 or 300 player ranges. The devs are kinda "tied" by technology and the fact that they have to have the capability to have the game running smooth, who would pay for a server that craps out whenever the game gets massive?

*shrug*

I don't know really, just guestimating.

[cujoman39]

Even the most standard games have headshots going back the OG godeneye if a game doesn't have headshots it better be as fast as quake 3 and a massive multiplayergame can't do that. I don't know about the rest of you but i live in a country with a economic syestem called capitalism. If you don't like no headshots don't buy the game i know i won't (its just a standard)
Newbies will become veterans when they master running around your enemy in a circle( thats just stupid).Newbies will learn by getting there asses blown up. Pistols will be useless even as a back up weapon. Plus if the game sucks because there are no headshots something better will come along eventually(counter strike: condition zero will have to due untill then).

[Arshune]

Quake 3 wasn't fast paced, UT was. Quake 3 was actually pretty slow by comparison to other games, slower than Half-life or any of its 48579387593847593.2034 mods. The way I see it, no headshots means no aimbotting 10 year olds, and the fewer of those I see, the fewer anger management classes I need to take.

Location specific damage has been cheap since its institution, it's a perfect game mechanic for single player but totally ruins multiplayer. It makes games a lot less fair, for n00b and 1337 h4x0r alike. In a game with location specific damage, people hold still and take careful aim, that's more precise but less active. In a game without it, however, the focus is more on the active elements and there's more run-n-gun action. I happen to prefer run-n-gun, that's why I was happy to hear them say PlanetSide won't have location specific damage, and I really do hope they never put it in. Video game combat=fun, real life combat=not fun. Why would you want to make the two more alike?

[Headrattle]

In a game with location specific damage, people hold still and take careful aim, that's more precise but less active. In a game without it, however, the focus is more on the active elements and there's more run-n-gun action.

I don't think that they hold still and take careful aim because of the headshots, though that does happen. I think that people take careful aim because, in the games where they do take carecull aim, you have less accuracy when moving, jumping ect.

I like this. I played the demo of UT2003 and I didn't like it. People just ran around and shot things. But there you don't have less Accuracy when moving. I just ran around shooting at everything that moved hoping that I could help my teammates this way. this wasn't fun. I wasn't thinking. I wasn't trying to figure out where they were, how I could out flank them, or how I could turn the tide. I just ran around and shot things.

But then in that game death means nothing. I believe that in order to have a game that isn't "run-n-gun" doesn't mean location damage. You need decreased/increased accuracy under certain conditions, teamwork, rewards for teamwork, communication with the team, stamina for bunny hopping, and players wanting to live. This creates careful players who crouch (provided it adds to accuracy), aim (doesn't matter where), and fire.

This game seems to have the above requirements. It has a CoF, that decreases when moving, jumping and shot, and increases when standing and crouching. You will be part of an empire, fighting othet empires. You gain experiance as a team under some cercumstances. There is a commander who orders, and you can talkto your squad. There is stamina that lets you run your implants as well as jump (I wonder if you can sprint.) If you die, you might spawn a ways back and have to trek your way to the fight, or another fight.

If the above things are true, I will be playing PS a LOT! My wife will have to peal my cold hands off the mouse, or pull a breaker in order to me to actually take out the trash. I like games where you have to aim, where you have to work as a team. These are skills. True circle-straifing is also a skill, but it will happen indoors.

At first I didn't like the headshots. While I do believe they take skill. I really don't get that many headshots anyway because the body is so much easier to shoot at. I only shoot at the head when I am sneaking up on them. So it isn't a big loss anyway.