The NCO and the Officer...

[OptimusPrime]

The essence of the Officer/NCO relationship is best expressed in this story...

An old major, a veteran of long service and some hard campaigns, was giving some officer candidates a practical exercise in how to lead troops. The problem involved putting up a flagpole. To do this he provided a sergeant and a detail of three privates with tools. It was up to the officer candidates to figure out the best way to do the job...

They pondered the situation carefully. Several false starts were made, solutions were advanced and tried but failed because no one seemed to be in charge. Each candidate thought only he knew the right way and competed loudly with the others to be heard...

Finally, the old major stepped in and with a gesture! silenced the babble. "Gentlemen" he said, "allow me to demonstrate how a good officer would do this job". He turned to the sergeant and said "Sergeant, please have the men put up the flag pole." Nothing more was said and within a few minutes the flag pole was up...

The good NCO knows how to get the job done. The good Officer will let him do it...

Now, apply this thinking to PlanetSide and being a Squad Leader and a Squad Member...

See you on the battlefield...

[Baneblade]

:lol:

I would say you were stating the obvious, but I know it's not...:rofl:

[TheN00b]

:lol:

I would say you were stating the obvious, but I know it's not...:rofl:

It's funny? Umm... :doh:

[Baneblade]

It's funny? Umm... :doh:You kinda have had to have been in the military...

EDIT: Or have had a job with a boss who has no clue...

[Lartnev]

My eyes! O_

[Cauldron Borne]

Interesting. And so true.

SL's: you gotta give the orders, BUT: you can't baby the troops, they can handle it, and if they can't, then they need to find help.
EVERYONE ELSE: you gotta use yer friggin judgment as to how to BEST carry out those orders. And if you don't know how to haldle something DON'T BOTHER THE SL about it. Ask a veteran. The SL's are to busy trying make sure operation go through smoothly, and can't take time away from that to help you along.

I think that sums it up nicely.

Nice post, Optimus. I approve

[TheN00b]

An interesting viewpoint, Cauldron. A potential problem with it is that I've been with Liquid Force, and you guys don't use the ranking system that both the military and The Black Widows use; that is, you guys have the squad leader, and then the rest of the squaddies. What Optimus is talking about is that the NCO, the second-in-command of the squad, is able to effectively command the troops in a tactical situation, and that Squad Leaders should remember that. The Squad Leader should be the overall commander, looking at the big picture, contemplating and assigning targets, and organizing groups. He should delegate certain responsibilities, like commanding squad fire-teams in combat, to his NCO(s).

[Cauldron Borne]

I would, then, have to disagree. When all you have is ten people to work with at maximum, you can only focus on the tactical. There isn't a lot of strategic things a squad leader can do with a max. of ten soldiers.

Now if you had a platoon, the PL would be in the officer's position and the other SL's would be your NCO's and ensure the platoon functions at the tactical level while you (the PL), handled the strategy. This is how LF currently works.

That and i'm not sure what LiquidForce has to do with this conversation, anyway. What I think and what you saw of an outfit four months ago are, apparently, different.

[Indecisive]

The yellow text burrrrrnsss ussssss

[Firefly]

There isn't a lot of strategic things a squad leader can do with a max. of ten soldiers.
No.

Unless your squad leader is inept and cannot handle ten people properly. Factor in various levels of text and voice communication, up to four or five voice channels alone, and it gets more difficult.

As far as what other outfits have done or can do/used to do- that's not our concern, N00b. We do what we do and we do it well, that's why we are what we are. And we can leave it at that.

[Cauldron Borne]

You disagree? Then perhaps you are doing something the rest of the world is not/ have access to resources we don't. Please enlighten us, if anything it will allow the TR to better combat our enemies.

Anyway, I believe that if the SL is not focused on what can happen in his tactical moment (as a leutenant in the military also should), then he isn't fulfilling his requirnment as a leader. I am not saying that he shouldn't be aware of the strategic goals, as that has a lot to do with the tactical decisions he has to make in order to best suit the squad and the strategic goal.

That and I believe you are confusing Squad Leader with, perhaps, Outfit Leader, which has access to imencly(sp?) larger resource pools.

I DO agree that there are things that an SL can do that involve strategy. I am not sure that is what he should be doing, though. Leutnenants do not try to control the operations of the Army, though they have a large roll in carrying them out. The Same as Generals do not bother with the small tactics of his squads, as it would detract from his seeing the big picture.

SO: I think SL's should stick to the Tactics at hand using the resources availiable to their extent. He should be aware of the strategy that is going on around him, but should not try to delve too deeply into that, as that is not his job and could adversely affect his leadership ability.

Platoon Leaders, Outfit Leaders and CR5's who know what they are doing are the ones who should delve into the stragety in this game. They are the ones who can affect it most, and with the greatest efficiency for results.

Also, Firefly: Could you explain your answer a bit more? "No." seems to be a bit shorthanded.



*EDIT: I like this discussion. No flames, just good discussion.

[TheN00b]

Indeed, this debate 'tis a good one.

Cauldron, squad leaders can accomplish a huge amount of strategical missions. A single squad can drain a base, perform a lightning resecure drop, drop onto an AMS and take it out, take an important tower, at least temproarily... The possibilities are truly endless.
There is one major difference between the Army and any Outfit, even the 666th: The Army is fricking huge. As of now, I think that, for example, the US army, not including the Marines, the Air Force, etc... Has around 4-5 hundred thousand standing members. With that kind of system, the rank of Lieutenant just ain't that high, at least in the grand scheme of things; in most Outfits, however, where you can only field about 20 people on a very regular basis, a Lieutenant becomes a very important dude.

[Firefly]

I think you're misunderstanding what I am saying. At least in BWC, our squad leaders are not just NCOs. Anyone can lead a squad and when they do so, it's with the authoirty of an officer. We have ranks that we consider "NCO ranks", and when it comes down to it, those NCOs may be a squad leader while an officer may serve as platoon leader (and when we have enough people, a "company commander"). We also do not assign rank based on BR or CR, so it very well may be that a squad leader is ranked Corporal and is BR20/CR5. I know many outfits out there pay homeage to the almighty XP and CEP and some even say that you can't join them unless you're a certain BR/CR.

So I'd have to say, I know of instances where squad leaders had access to resource pools that other squad leaders or commanders did not- this holds true especially since this vaunted and mythical "Alliance Chat" we have been promised has yet to even make an in-concept article. I also instruct everyone in my outfit what voice channels to tune into, as we are part of several alliances/co-op groups that use voice comms. They also know which key commanders, leaders, and CRs to send intel to and ask for intel dumps. I cannot speak for times when I am not on, so when I am on if I am not leading I make sure that my team leaders and squad leaders and commanders are using the resources available.

Now strategy: how exactly does one implement and/or affect strategy, if we presume that every leader is busy leading? I believe that "lieutenants" such as squad leaders or platoon leaders (or NCOs if you lead that way) *CAN* create or use strategic plans. If you have a support squad, then you're already strategic because you're supporting the entire fight. I term "tactical" as using both tactics such as fire teams and maneuvering or using squad-based platoon tactics and also being in the immediate fight. A strategic asset/plan is one that encompasses a continental if not global scale. And simply saying to your squad, "The so-and-so empire is fighting with other-empire, we can cause a diversion on X-continent while we send the rest of the force to Y-continent" is actually a strategic statement. You're affecting strategy on a continental and global scale, which hits that at any angle you choose to define it as. If you also consider a command squad, then that's a whole 'nother aspect.

As far as lieutenants and NCOs go... in-game, they have an important place and real-world they have an important place (yes, they are valuable TeN00b).

[TheN00b]

Lol, sir, I know that they're valuable; they're just not as important on a realistic scale as they are in a system where the highest attainable rank is a Lieutenant.

[Firefly]

Stop calling me sir.

[TheN00b]

Stop calling me sir.

Gotcha', Firefly, si... Goddammit!

[Mag-Mower]

My eyes! O_

[Cauldron Borne]

I'm using the military definitions of Tactical and Strategic.

Tactical: within the area (about an SOI i guess).

Strategic: Global or in a WIDE area (continent/ global - CR5's and outfit leaders are the only ones who can really do this.)

And LF doesn't chose it's SL's based on Outfit rank, either. It is more of whom ever started the squad. During Operations we may designate an officer for squads, but that's mostly because the officers were given that rank because they showed they had experience in leading squads effectivly.


So that is why I say that a squad of 10, imo, cannot effectivly affect the strategic areas of this game. If, as you said, the squad is pulling a support roll, it would have to depend on how effective it was at affecting a wide area of troops.

[Onizuka-GTO]

Gotcha', Firefly, si... Goddammit!

:lol:

Keep saying that, TheN00b.
I think he secretly likes it. ;)

[Firefly]

:lol:

Keep saying that, TheN00b.
I think he secretly likes it. ;)
No. I hate it. The enlisted-Army in me hates it, and the part of me that's getting old hates it.

[TheN00b]

I'm using the military definitions of Tactical and Strategic.

Tactical: within the area (about an SOI i guess).

Strategic: Global or in a WIDE area (continent/ global - CR5's and outfit leaders are the only ones who can really do this.)

And LF doesn't chose it's SL's based on Outfit rank, either. It is more of whom ever started the squad. During Operations we may designate an officer for squads, but that's mostly because the officers were given that rank because they showed they had experience in leading squads effectivly.


So that is why I say that a squad of 10, imo, cannot effectivly affect the strategic areas of this game. If, as you said, the squad is pulling a support roll, it would have to depend on how effective it was at affecting a wide area of troops.

It really depends on what you call tactical and what you call strategical. In my opinion, a tactical decision is one that needs to be right away, and will have an immediate, nearby effect: For example, an under-fire formation change. Strategical seems to be a more slow-paced, global understanding and application of multifarious tactics that fcan be utilized simultaneously for great effect.

[OptimusPrime]

"Like it or not, the aggressor makes the rules. You must play by them, or you will surely die by them..."

[Cauldron Borne]

N00b: You just said what I said using more words.....

[TheN00b]

N00b: You just said what I said using more words.....

No I didn't. You specified area in your definitions, whereas I feel that area has no place in finding the distinction between tactics and strategy. For example, under your definition, a squad going to an enemy-locked continent and draining a base is a tactical maneuver: That is, it is in an area smaller than a SOI. However, I view this as strategical, because it would force enemy commanders to redistribute troops on a global scale.

[Ducimus]

>>The NCO and the Officer...


The officer is responsible for having something done.
The NCO is responsible for doing it.

[TheN00b]

>>The NCO and the Officer...


The officer is responsible for having something done.
The NCO is responsible for doing it.

Mebbe. I view it more as:

Officer: Decides plan of action
NCO: Gets all of Officer's grunts to follow the plan of action.

[Firefly]

Good Officer - does what the general/colonel says, tells the NCOs what needs to happen. Sits in vehicle and stays the hell out the way.

Bad Officer - gets guidance from on-high, tells sergeants how to do their job, tells privates how to do their job and how to listen to sergeants, claims to be pro-sergeant, forgets that West Point is a college and not a leadership school, ends up getting fragged by the sergeant or a smart private.

Sergeant - hears what officer says, nods, salutes, says "Hooah sir", then ignores it and does it his own way. Gets no reward except the satisfaction of a job well done (which is all we need, airborne!)

Notice there is no bad or good for the Sergeant.

[Lonehunter]

An interesting viewpoint, Cauldron. A potential problem with it is that I've been with Liquid Force, and you guys don't use the ranking system that both the military and The Black Widows use; that is, you guys have the squad leader, and then the rest of the squaddies.
That is what you may think Noob, but my self and other Officers always thought as you as one of the problems, you rarely listened. As for, "Squad leader, and then the rest of the Squaddies." With us, the SL IS the Boss, it is his Job and his duty, if the Outfit leader is in this Squad and disagrees with the SL's decision, he's gonna have to live with it. Now if the OL, knows that his own way is best, he'll let that SL learn after he makes his mistake. But Noob I hope you found an outfit family that suites you well.

As far as the main topic, the main construct of working well as a team is discipline, once the whole team has achieved that, anything is possible. In Planetside, that can be hard to achieve for most.


Edit: Great post Optimus

[TheN00b]

Erm, Hunter? The last time I checked, during the time I was in Liquid Force, you weren't there... Cifer was the acting commander... :confused:

[Firefly]

Erm, Hunter? The last time I checked, during the time I was in Liquid Force, you weren't there... Cifer was the acting commander... :confused:
That's who LoneHunter is. At least that's what I had been led to believe.

[Cauldron Borne]

YAY FIrefly is smaat!

[Lonehunter]

Yes I am Cifer, maybe I should re-register with the Cifer tag, or just make a Sig claiming to be Cifer, but I stopped fooling around with signatures, so screw that.

Edit: I was only a temporary commander, until Liquid got back

[Firefly]

Yes I am Cifer, maybe I should re-register with the Cifer tag, or just make a Sig claiming to be Cifer, but I stopped fooling around with signatures, so screw that.

Edit: I was only a temporary commander, until Liquid got back
Or you could have Hamma change your account name.

[Electrofreak]

::Rubs his bleeding eyes::

[Toimu]

I work in the TOC, 1 CPT, 2 LTs, 3 SGTs, and 3 Soldiers... The CPT finds the time to micro manage the Soldiers work... Our NCOs and even our LTs try and stop him... but he out ranks them all. 1 more week and he gets moved to another Co! But I still want to gouge his eyes out with a blunt object sometimes...

[JetRaiden]

technically, an NCO is an officer.

[Toimu]

technically, an NCO is an officer.

Technically, a NCO is a Non Commission Officer. :P

[Firefly]

technically, an NCO is an officer.
Uh no. An NCO is an agent of the officer. I think that's the actual definition of breakdown from some obscure Army FM.

TOC work = teh suck. What unit?

[Ducimus]

Mebbe. I view it more as:

Officer: Decides plan of action
NCO: Gets all of Officer's grunts to follow the plan of action.


By the book, ya.

In reality, it's often exactly how i said. Officer is responsible for having something done, NCO is responsible for doing it.

Delegation, where responsiblity falls in the chain of command, and having to improvise, or having someone up the chain who has their head up their ass, is an intresting thing.

[Ducimus]

Since folks here seem so well versed in basic PME, riddle me this:

What is the difference between an O-3, and a Captain?

I'll be surpsied if anyone here gives me the answer i'm looking for.

[TheN00b]

Hell, I don't know. As far as I know, Firefly's the only one here who's actually in/been in the military, so he can probably tell you, but I'm just some kid from Hippyville USA, where squirtguns are banned by my neighborhood.

[Cauldron Borne]

O-3 is the overall rank (i.e. all the branches recognize O-3 as the third rank of officer). A Captain is what the Army, Marines, and Airforce call an O-3. The Navy calls O-3's Leutenants (sp?), Leutenants, Ensigns(O-1, O-2), and Colonels, Captains (O-5). That's why the Grade system was created, because the Navy likes to be different, or the land armies do, depending on whether your looking at history or common sence :D .




I'm not in the military. You don't have to be in the military to know what's going on out there...

[Ducimus]

No, thats not that answer i was looking for.

Since people were talking about the relationship between an NCO and an officer, i thought i would point this "other" relationship out as well.

There is a difference between an O-3 and a captain. yes, one is grade, and the other is rank, but there is a difference. The difference between an o-3 and a captain, is the same difference found in any person in a leadership position.

Here's the difference:

People listen to an O-3 because they HAVE to.
People listen to the Captain because they WANT to.

Think about that for a bit...

[Toimu]

Uh no. An NCO is an agent of the officer. I think that's the actual definition of breakdown from some obscure Army FM.

TOC work = teh suck. What unit?

I don't feel like looking it up, even though AKO is at my finger tips.

4th Squad HHD 201st 3rd Brigade 1st ID United States of Americas' Army Planet Earth Milky Way Galaxy... I forgot the rest.

I've been working 2100-0500 with only 1 NCO that's really cool for the past 3 weeks. I get to go to the gym for an hour, we watch movies on a 40" flat screen (it's for traking convoys... during the day :) ), and we have AFN. So I give it about a month before they switch my shift to some crappy 12-16 hours (always 7 days a week) in the middle of the heat! It's only 80F at night here.

[Firefly]

What is the difference between an O-3, and a Captain?
O3 is some asshole that people listen to because they have to (if they're O2/O1, warrant or enlisted)... a captain is someone they listen to because he/she fuckin ROCKS.

The same with the difference in a Sergeant and an E5. An E5 is some fartknocking windbag who got the position by mesmerizing crap in a green book and reciting pretty poetry to the board. A sergeant EARNED those stripes.

4th Squad HHD 201st 3rd Brigade 1st ID United States of Americas' Army Planet Earth Milky Way Galaxy... I forgot the rest.
I hate TOCs. Brigade TOCs for maneuver units are generally targets for artillery. I felt sorry for our MI cell that had to colocate with them, until I realized they deserved it for being control-freaks in areas they had no knowledge of (like usage of MI collection assets). Whenever we had some dumbass LT that tried to make our Ops center colocate there as well, we had to explain how it "really" worked. That's where we find out if he's an O1 or a Lieutenant...

EDIT:
crap, just saw Ducimus'ss'e'es's answer, nevermind.

[Cauldron Borne]

Hmm.... i see Ducimus. I'm just used to thinking on a different plain at the moment. I get what you are saying though.

[Ducimus]

O3 is some asshole that people listen to because they have to (if they're O2/O1, warrant or enlisted)... a captain is someone they listen to because he/she fuckin ROCKS.

The same with the difference in a Sergeant and an E5. An E5 is some fartknocking windbag who got the position by mesmerizing crap in a green book and reciting pretty poetry to the board. A sergeant EARNED those stripes.


I hate TOCs. Brigade TOCs for maneuver units are generally targets for artillery. I felt sorry for our MI cell that had to colocate with them, until I realized they deserved it for being control-freaks in areas they had no knowledge of (like usage of MI collection assets). Whenever we had some dumbass LT that tried to make our Ops center colocate there as well, we had to explain how it "really" worked. That's where we find out if he's an O1 or a Lieutenant...

EDIT:
crap, just saw Ducimus'ss'e'es's answer, nevermind.


Damn, guess i gave out the answer too quick.
People listen to an O-3 because they HAVE to.
People listen to the Captain because they WANT to.


Firefly was spot on, just in more words than what i wrote.

This is a difference you pick up pretty quick in the service, not to mention the "captain america" types.. *PUKES*


Theres an abject lesson you can take from this that applies to planetside.

People don't listen to a Command rank whatever because they have to.
They listen because they want to.

So that kinda narrows your options down on what you have to be while trying to lead in PS doesn't it? :D

[Firefly]

Damn, guess i gave out the answer too quick.
People listen to an O-3 because they HAVE to.
People listen to the Captain because they WANT to.

I generally quote as I go, then cut/paste and move on down the line to the next quote. I saw your question but didn't see that you answered on the next page until I got done with my quote-and-peck.

Theres an abject lesson you can take from this that applies to planetside.

People don't listen to a Command rank whatever because they have to.
They listen because they want to.

So that kinda narrows your options down on what you have to be while trying to lead in PS doesn't it? :D
That's what I've been saying every time some dumbfuck like TriggerChaoz or Drennan screams over /global about how crappy TR are and how they never listen. This isn't the military - I don't have to obey orders and I can curse a "superior officer" out without worrying about an Article 15 or one of the more serious UCMJ articles. If you want me and my troops to listen, don't me a Johnny Ramrod and then try to cover up your bullshit calls by insulting us.

Then again, most CR5s are nothing more than Zerg Traffic Directors, they point the cannon fodder in the right direction. They think that's leadership, they think calling a primary and secondary is "commanding", and that somehow entitles them to our respect. Let's face it - some of the morons on the ground with the low BR and low CR know more about leading than some of the sissies that pulled Sanctuary Pick-Up Squad for two months over summer vacation. Add to that the new breed of CRs that saw the collossal fuck-ups like ButtcutPsycho and Smiley777 think they're different, but they don't know how to play the game, and try to go it alone contrary to established, functioning tactics... and we're basically screwed.

[Ducimus]

>>, they point the cannon fodder in the right direction. They think that's leadership, they think calling a primary and secondary is "commanding", and that somehow entitles them to our respect.
<<

There is a reason why i never even bothered with getting CR 1. Thats one of them. I just didnt want to deal with it. Instead i tried to inspire or otherwise point folks i worked with iin the right direction. Its a game, and as a game i find it more fun to follow a good leader then to try and be one.

I think more and more about coming back to PS every day, but i seriously don't think im going to worry about how the TR on Markov (where i played) conducts itself, it has been, and always will be a clusterfuck. Infact, TR on Markov is the postershild of what is a clustefuck when last i played. Too many opposing personaltiies that dont want to play ball with each other. Its always the same shit, i think id just pick me a job to do, do it, and not worry about anything else.

I have harboered the idea.. or rather concept of a dedicated Combat Engineering unit (which is what i was in RL for 5 active and 2 reserve), but given the nature of the personatlies that play the game, i dont think many people would be hot on the idea. I do know this though, in RL, if CE don't work, nothing works. its a support element you can't do without, but how RL transcribes into practice in PS in that reguard is a whole nother story.

As leadership goes between what an O1 is verses a 2nd LT, and NCO and officer, most people won't get it or practice it.. its not the military. Acutally its a collection of FPS clans that "play" military, but are infact, not. Alot of people don't understand that attitudes are contagious, and a bad one needs to be nipped in the budd before it undermines everyones moral, or even one asshat CR5 can cause a stigma that will forever tarnish the image and reputation of his peers. *shrug* you can lead a horse to water, but you can't get him to drink.

[Toimu]

I have this SFC generator mechanic as a 1st SGT that comes up with the dumbest crap (My unit is a FSB). He told me the other day, I cannot walk 20 feet to the showers from my connex wearing DCUs without my gear, but I can wear PTs to the showers without my gear! WTF! We aren't in garrison, we are down range! We also have formations... great idea for a base that gets MORTARED about 2-3 times a week!

And when it comes to brand new LTs vs SGTs, I always say, "There are over paid Privets, and there are under paid LTs."

[Firefly]

I have this SFC generator mechanic as a 1st SGT that comes up with the dumbest crap (My unit is a FSB). He told me the other day, I cannot walk 20 feet to the showers from my connex wearing DCUs without my gear, but I can wear PTs to the showers without my gear! WTF! We aren't in garrison, we are down range!
Been in-zone a few times, I know how you feel. In Afghanistan we had some asshat REMF that said all the spooky types had to shave and get haircuts and wear proper military uniform. Not only was that against our SOP and standing orders, but it was also a great way to identify us as Americans - one of the only military forces that shaves its troops. It also made us appear to be sissy bitches to the locals, where having a beard was the ultimate expression of manhood. We argued it was local-area orders. He said, "The regs say this."

So here's what we did. We started saluting in down-range "garrison". The guy was red-faced apoplectic with rage. "SOLDIER! Do not salute me in a combat zone!!"

Our CO's reply? "But sir... the regs say this."

[Ducimus]

Rank has always had little to do with wisdom or common sense.

edit: And firefly describes what i call a "captain america" type. I'll bet he puffs his chest out too.

[Firefly]

edit: And firefly describes what i call a "captain america" type. I'll bet he puffs his chest out too.
Nah this guy was a slouchy kinda suck-in-my-fat-general's-chest guy. We used to do skits during off-duty, and we'd suck in our guts, do the Hulk Hogan arm thing where you curl your arms like an upside-down U, and swagger around like John Wayne going, "Shine those desert boots, soldier! Press that BDU floppy hat! Blacken that desert rank, son!"

[Cauldron Borne]

CE in PS > anything anyone else can come up with. My first few weeks i had: CE...that was it. Not even MA. Just CE. I got 100+ kills those few weeks. All CE. boomers, mines, spits. you name it. So yeah. CE plays a part in PS.


AND i can't join in on the presant topic because I am not in the military....yet. I have the rank of 2nd Leutenant in a JROTC. But that's it for now. Hoping I can get into a Military college (West Point. I apply next spring). Then I can talk soldier with ya'll :D

[Ducimus]

Keep in mind that as a cadet, you learn how the military is supposed to be.

Later on you'll learn how it really is.

Be ready to adjust when the day comes.

[Cauldron Borne]

*shudder*

[Ducimus]

If your serious about being an officer as a career.

Don't be REMF
Don't be a LIFER. (Lazy Inefficent Fucker Expecting Retirement)
Try not to do stupid shit.

Use the experience of your NCO's to your advantage. Ultimatly if a job is done or not, is on your head, but its your NCO's that will have a better idea on how to do it. Think of them as your advisory council. Respect the experience they have to offer. Never place yourself on a pedistal if you want their respect. Be willing to learn, and i'll bet they'll respect you for it.

If you want the repect if your men, be part of the team, but respect the experience and specalties of your troops. Your rank and responsiblity should not put you above the job at hand. If you can be one of the guys, and At the same time, maintain that officer image, you'll make a fine one.

I was CE, and we had some of the finest field officers. They wouldnt just stand there with their hands on their hips. They'd take their shirt off and get in the work with us. Either raking concrete like any other trooper, or at the bottom of a ladder or lift asking us what we needed, or how he could help in such a way that suggested respect for our job knowledge and willingness to help. Thats the type officer men will want to follow. At least thats how it was in my unit.

[Toimu]

Most of the Officers in my unit won't do a damn thing, so of course they don't know a damn thing. Half- 75% of the NCOs are the same way also. And most of the girls (soldier/NCO/officer) are just sluts, and expect that to mean they should get rank without doing anything. That is why I like graveyard TOC work. I see no one, and have little to do. I'm at work right now :)

[Ducimus]

Ya thats a reality there...

How "it is" varies from unit to unit, branch to branch. Sometimes just the right mixture of the wrong things will be so bad, that you'll go into your orderly room, and put yourself down for world wide remote.... ANYTHING to PCS/PCA out of that particular unit.

I did that once, i ended up in Korea. lol, but at least i got out of that chickenshit backbiting REMF LIFER unit, and into a high speed low drag supercharged unit with a real mission that took care of its own like family.

[Cauldron Borne]

um....ok.

I want to be in the military, so I guess I need to learn what a REMF means...

I want to guess Real Evil Mudda Fucka....am I close? :)

[Firefly]

I want to be in the military, so I guess I need to learn what a REMF means...
Rear Echelon Mother Fucker. In the rear with the gear. Not on the front lines getting shot at.

Keep in mind that as a cadet, you learn how the military is supposed to be.

Later on you'll learn how it really is.
Especially when some groggy, tired, pissed-off Sergeant who's been micromanaged and had rank pulled on him for two months finally has enough of your pretentious bullshit and sticks his finger in your face and says, "Listen, 'sir'. Get your head out of your ass, or have it placed there by force over and over."

We had some dipshit lieutenant show up as a platoon leader, and he had the balls to claim that his four years of ROTC meant he had four years of field time. It was especially amusing when he said his summer camps were great eye-openers as to how the military should work and he started "laying down the law". The thing that gets me is, his predecessor (a great man) told him specifically, "These guys are pro. Stay out of their way. Make sure they get chow, make sure they have bullets, go to bat for them no matter what. But let them do their job the way they've been doing it, because it works." The n00b said he understood...

About two months later, when the company commander commended him on his troops doing a good job (notice there was no mention of him doing one), we had to break it to him that it was because we'd heard what he said, promptly ignored it when he was out of earshot, and went about our merry way.

[Ducimus]

Rear Echelon Mother Fucker - typically senior in rank. Theres the book, and then theres how its really done. This asshat Knows the Book backwards, and upside, and takes every opportunity to remind you of it. Goes by the book even when its not the brightest ways to go about things. Guy who sits in the rear, with the gear whos out in the field for a change, and thinks hes got it all figured out, and thinks his shit don't stink.

Situation Normal All Fucked Up - duh.... (SNAFU)
Lazy Inefficent Fucker Expecting Retirement (LIFER)
Bend Over Here It Comes Again (BOHICA)

Theres more, but my favorite one has got to be FIGMO.
Fuck It Got My Orders.

[Firefly]

FUBAR - Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition

PLDC - pronounced as "Pull-Dick" (it's an Army school where they supposedly teach you to be a sergeant)

[Ducimus]

I wish i could be a fly on the wall if/when someone sends our budding butter bar to look for a PRC E9, or a gallon of K9P :D

[Firefly]

I wish i could be a fly on the wall if/when someone sends our budding butter bar to look for a PRC E9, or a gallon of K9P :D
That reminds me. I heard a story at my first duty station about why we had to stop doing that.

Apparently, this new PV2 (E2) shows up straight out of school. His team chief sent him to Supply looking for a PRC E9. The supply sergeant plays along, sends him to battalion S4 (battalion-level logistics). Calls ahead, warns his buddy on the Good Ol Boy network that Private Newbie is coming in, and to keep him busy.

The new private gets there, stands at parade rest and asks the shop if they know where they can find a Prick E9. The sergeant in the shop looks confused, says to the new private, "Hey, that's at brigade. You know how to get there?" Gives him directions and everything.

On his way out, the private sees one of his friends, who graduated earlier. Ironic how the buddy has had the same experience and now knows what a PRC E9 is. He clues the private in. Private goes to his barracks room and takes the rest of the day off, with his own game in mind. His team chief comes around that afternoon to find out what the eff ol' Private Newbie is doing in his room when the team has been slaving away in the motor pool all day.

"Sergeant, the supply sergeant sent me to S4. S4 sent me to Brigade. Then Brigade said something about talking to the Sergeant Major [for you non-hablars, a sergeant-major is an E9 paygrade]. The Brigade Sergeant Major then said something about wanting to talk to you and the First Sergeant in his office. I dunno why, but he seemed mad."

[Ducimus]

HAH dont get me started!


THeres this one story i remember, i forget who or when or what they sent him to find, but what they didn't know was this FNG was prior service, and had done that song and dance before.

He went to the BX, got him some craft supplies, colored this thing OD Green, and stenciled the name on it in black. He then took a nap at his barracks room and then showed up for evening formation with the "item" he was sent to procure.

[Toimu]

The only one that was done to me was "Go to the motor pool and get some A.S.S. grease." I ask my NCO what does A.S.S. stand for, he was stump, and I figured out what was going on.

[Cauldron Borne]

I'm a fond believer in using 'The Book' as a way to keep me warm when I don't have lighter fluid.

Yer Acronyms, however, will be the death of me.

I've been to a few military camps (nothing like the real thing, I'm sure. But it DOES give me good practice seeing how I can identify good leaders and bad ones) where several 'higher ups' tried to pull a few practical jokes on me. They usually live to regrete it by the end of the week. I am a master at subtly, ironic, revenge. That and I know it's all a game anyway. At least during training it is. (preps himself for a war story from the Ol' Dog-faces...)

[Firefly]

The only war story I think appropriate to share is, during training it is a mind-game. And it's THEIR game with their rules. The guys who run this training have been doing it for a long time, and they've seen EVERY trick in the book. You simply have to play by their rules - and that means doing what they say. The way you win is, you have to keep in mind that it's a game and you win by "surviving". Of course, it's not like they're going to wash you out and ruin your life. Guys that went to Basic with me who couldn't cut the mustard were just recycled to another class until they "got it". That includes PT Failures, fat-boys, people who try playing the Section Eight game, people who suddenly rethink their desire to be in the military, and the drama-prone 17/18yr olds who were the top shit in their JROTC class and suddenly found themselves amongst former primadonnas who were equally competing for a place in the Drill Sergeant's primary boot-stomping zone. I say that realizing that you are in JROTC (as was I), as a word of advice. There will be a dozen other guys with that sort of background, and they'll all want to be the DS's pet. I saw two guys, who had every ribbon and medal and decoration in the JROTC book and were cadet-officers and drill team leaders and honor cadets and blah-blah, get into a fist fight over the PROSPECT of being a trainee squad leader. Which basically means jack and shit.

[Manitou]

It's amazing how much the military has changed over the years.

We were standing in line waiting to go through the gas chamber and one of my DS's comes walking up. This guy was a Vietnam Veteran and had been wounded and all that - a real mean SOB. (Both my DS's were Vietnam Vets. and both were meaner than anyone I have ever met - flat hated everyone and probably ate their mothers when they were born.) Tough as nails and always walked around whittling on pieces of wood with a huge, nasty looking knife. We were lined up pretty tight, and there was this guy standing about 4 people ahead of me. His last name was a Jewish name, lost to memory now, and the DS walks up to him and says real loud like, "Hey, I bet you know how your relatives felt now, don't you?" Lots of the guys kinda' chuckled nervously, since nobody really knew how to respond. I was pretty surprised at that, but didn't say squat.

You do something like that today, and the feces begin to contact the occilating device. Still remember that event like it was yesterday.

[Ducimus]

The only war story I think appropriate to share is, during training it is a mind-game. And it's THEIR game with their rules. The guys who run this training have been doing it for a long time, and they've seen EVERY trick in the book. You simply have to play by their rules - and that means doing what they say. The way you win is, you have to keep in mind that it's a game and you win by "surviving". Of course, it's not like they're going to wash you out and ruin your life. Guys that went to Basic with me who couldn't cut the mustard were just recycled to another class until they "got it". That includes PT Failures, fat-boys, people who try playing the Section Eight game, people who suddenly rethink their desire to be in the military, and the drama-prone 17/18yr olds who were the top shit in their JROTC class and suddenly found themselves amongst former primadonnas who were equally competing for a place in the Drill Sergeant's primary boot-stomping zone. I say that realizing that you are in JROTC (as was I), as a word of advice. There will be a dozen other guys with that sort of background, and they'll all want to be the DS's pet. I saw two guys, who had every ribbon and medal and decoration in the JROTC book and were cadet-officers and drill team leaders and honor cadets and blah-blah, get into a fist fight over the PROSPECT of being a trainee squad leader. Which basically means jack and shit.

There is one rule for training that i'm aware of:

Don't be first, don't be last, and don't volunteer for anything. :D

EDIT:
Oh ya, and incase you haven't figured it out, i was an ROTC type too. Now, as an Officer in training (IE, Cadet) i was taught to use my Diaphram. First time a drill sgt approached me, i sounded off out of habit, right in his face. That didn't go over so well as i'm sure you can imagine. From that moment foward, i dropped any former training like a bad habit. The only thing ROTC type stuff was realy good for, was you knew how to drill, and you have a clue about protocol. As for everythign else.. i kept quiet, and tried to stay low in profile. After i was trained and went to a CE unit, i never encountered anything resembling what ROTC spewed ever again. Never wore my class A's, just BDU's and steeltoed boots. heh. For me later on, open ranks inspection in the morning if they had one meant, no boom cords, black boots, and a clean set of BDU's. After the duty day, if your boots weren't brown, dusty, or otherwise covered with the crap you'd pick up in a construction site, (sheetrock dust or concrete), you were a fuckin up slacker.

[Doppler]

From the training enviroment two instances always stick in my head.

1 Had a TI who was about 5'2 with short mans syndrome. I was the tallest guy in my flight. No matter what i did, (being a brat i knew most of the discipline bit, and parade rest or attention had been fairly natural postures in my life.) because of these culminating factors i ended up as dorm chief for a bit. This ended quite spectacularly when i was trying to explain to a slacker that he was holding back the rest of the flight (in some rather colorfull language) when he took a swing at me. One very short fight later I was in front of the chief who ran the training section, who explained to me in no uncertain terms, that it was only because i had not instigated the fight other then trying to correct a fuck up, and had stoped very precisely at knocking the punk out (albeit with the aid of a wall locker) and my performance to that date, that i wasnt looking at an administrative discharge. On the plus side I was no longer dorm chief, which meant the rest of basic was a breeze as i only had myself to watch out for.


I have other stories from AD but thats my best trianing enviroment story.

[Firefly]

It's amazing how much the military has changed over the years.

We were standing in line waiting to go through the gas chamber and one of my DS's comes walking up. This guy was a Vietnam Veteran and had been wounded and all that - a real mean SOB. (Both my DS's were Vietnam Vets. and both were meaner than anyone I have ever met - flat hated everyone and probably ate their mothers when they were born.) Tough as nails and always walked around whittling on pieces of wood with a huge, nasty looking knife. We were lined up pretty tight, and there was this guy standing about 4 people ahead of me. His last name was a Jewish name, lost to memory now, and the DS walks up to him and says real loud like, "Hey, I bet you know how your relatives felt now, don't you?" Lots of the guys kinda' chuckled nervously, since nobody really knew how to respond. I was pretty surprised at that, but didn't say squat.

You do something like that today, and the feces begin to contact the occilating device. Still remember that event like it was yesterday.
It kinda depends on the situation. If you know the person and you know them well enough to joke around, yeah.

I don't give a shit what time of year or age it was. I'm Jewish - had that bastard said that to me, I probably would have replied with something like "Not as well as knowing what a VC pungi stick up the ass feels like." It might get me knocked flat or get me a million push-ups, but I'd feel it was worth it.

My mouth got me in trouble a lot in Basic. It also got me out of trouble sometimes, if I made a well-timed funny joke.

[Cauldron Borne]

I'm the kind of guy who will do everything that the 'boss' says to do. I screw it up a lot, but I try.

Now, when no-one's looking, THEN the fun begins. I'm a prankster through and through. Probably a habit I should drop before basic, but my buddies and I pull some pretty spectacular shit off.

[KIAsan]

There is one rule for training that i'm aware of:

Don't be first, don't be last, and don't volunteer for anything. :D



Hell, that's SOP for everyday, not just training!

The only thing I ever volunteer for is deployments to Guam or Hawaii (and Alaska in the summer). Anything else, they gotta drag me kicking and screaming!!!!

BTW, I always use the regs to my full advantage! You got to know them to use them, so don't just ignore those puppies! If it weren't for regs, hell, I would be in Afghanistan right now, doing yet another long desert deployment!!!!