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Rayder
2004-07-01, 03:59 AM
Gaming Tries to Shed
Boys' Club Image

Number of women game creators growing

By Tom Loftus
Reprinted with permission from MSNBC.com (http://g.msn.com/us23/1?http://www.MSNBC.com&&DI=3732&PI=7327&PS=58577)

May's E3 did little to dissuade the stereotype that the only women working in video gaming do so in camouflage bikinis.

Touring the show floor with several female students, Jason Chu, chief operating officer with the DigiPen Institute of Technology, got a taste of the backlash to the industry's testosterone-laden sensibilities.

"We were looking at these posters of women in outfits," Chu recalled. "And one turned to me and said, 'This is why women aren't in games.'"

Blame gaming's nerdy male history or even society's expectations on what men and women can do for a living, but there's no denying that the people who create games are overwhelmingly male.

The times, they are (finally) a changing, however. Already well-represented in marketing and public relations, women are now moving into the creative areas of coding, design, art and production.

Advocates say it's about time. The industry needs not just gender diversity, but a diversity of ideas they hope will lead to new types of games and, ultimately, new players. The challenge is finding the talent.

'People make games they like to play'
At stake are some big issues for an industry that grossed $7 billion in the United States in 2003.

Getting more women involved in creating games isn't just the right thing to do, it's good business, said Laura Fryer, director of the Xbox Advanced Technology Group at Microsoft.

"Half of the population isn't having input into what's being created," Fryer said. "And the one thing that I learned is that people make games they like to play. Having a diverse opinion helps games."

It's a point seconded by Sheri Graner Ray, a senior game designer for Sony Online Entertainment. The game industry, by virtue of its overwhelmingly male employee-base, is missing a big market, she said.

"The thing the industry is coming to realize is that its targeted male 15 to 25 demographic isn't growing like the industry is growing," she said.

The purpose of recruiting women is not so they can make games 'about pink fluffy kitties.'

Studies report that while women players dominate online arcade and puzzle games, the multibillion-dollar PC and console market is another story. All told, according to the trade group Entertainment Software Association, women account for 39 percent of all players.

The solution to this dearth of female fandom, both Ray and Fryer agreed, lies in recruiting more women coders, artists and level designers, the type of positions that can shape a title's story, look and gameplay.

Ray, author of the book "Gender Inclusive Game Design: Expanding The Market," cautioned against assuming stereotypical notions of what that would mean.

The purpose of recruiting women is not so they can make games "about pink fluffy kitties," she said. "You can't say that women like this or Japanese gamers want this."

Life in the trenches
At Sony's Santa Monica offices, development director Shannon Studstill said that women's role in game development goes beyond crunching code. "You have a bunch of guys and you'll get one flavor, but bring women in and it changes things, it's a whole different dynamic," she said.

Her current title, a Greek myth-inspired action game called "God of War," hardly sounds like a genre-changing game, but Studstill, whose team of 45 includes seven women, insisted that merely having women on the team influences the process. "There's more camaraderie and teamwork that revolves around females," she said.

Over at Insomniac Games, creators of the "Ratchet & Clank" series, game designer Lesley Mathieson said that being one of 12 women in a development staff of 100 may mark her as "unusual," but it's about building quality games that, she believes, will ultimately lure more women. "Already 20 to 30 percent of our fan mail comes from female players," she said.

But it's at Maxis, home of "The Sims," where the argument that women creators can draw women players holds water. "The Sims" boasts an audience that is 50 percent female, unheard of with most PC and console games. The staff is 25 percent female including two directors of development, a senior project director and additional senior production staff.

Lucy Bradshaw, vice president and executive producer, said that women involved early in "The Sims" production process "brought a lot of rounding out" including, she said, an insistence by one female member during the early design process that the kids portrayed in "The Sims" not act like "deadweight."

But Bradshaw was hesitant to credit "The Sims" popularity among women players to a women's touch. The reasons for its success, argued Bradshaw, is the willingness of game creator Will Wright's to support a diversity of ideas. And it just so happened that many of the people who supplied ideas were women.

Game publishers agree that they need to hire more women, an important change in attitude all by itself.

"It used to be that 'girls were coming and spoiling the fun.' Now it's like, 'Gosh, how can we get more women?'" said Sony's Ray.

The challenge is that demand now far outstrips supply.

Marc Mencher, president of an industry job placement firm called GameRecruiter.com, said that it's got to the point where some companies specifically request women. "It's bonus points," he said. "especially if I find a level designer or a programmer."

No one knows the exact number of women involved in creating or producing video games. Jason Della Rocca, program director for the International Game Developers Association estimated that women make up 10 to 15 percent. Ten years ago, he said, the number was 1 percent to 2 percent.

It's an improvement, but according to Della Rocca, "the sad thing is that the median is probably much lower. That is, many studios have zero to 1 percent women, whereas companies like Maxis with 40 to 50 percent help bring up the average."

Della Rocca blamed gaming's roots for the gender divide. "The game industry was created by engineers and programmers; it was very much a nerdy, techie and very male club," he said.

And then there are societal expectations, said GameRecruiter.com's Mencher.

"Look at our culture and at what women are encouraged to do as careers," he said. "Women are not encouraged to be a geek."

At the DigiPen Institute of Technology in Redmond, Wash., the game development program focuses on the type of math and advanced programming languages needed to make it as a game programmer. Of the 400 students who have passed through over the last several years, only a handful were women, according to administrator Jason Chu.

"It's not that women can't do programming," Chu said. "It's that they just aren't aware of game development as a career option."

Slowly, that's changing. Studstill and Bradshaw, for example, are among women gaming professional who help recruit potential hires at schools like MIT and USC's game and film program. And in September comes the Women's Game Conference in Austin, Texas, the first major industry event dedicated to women in gaming. Both Fryer and Ray are on the steering committee.

Of course, one way to make women more aware of gaming as a profession is to make them more aware of gaming as a hobby � to turn them into the types of hardcore gamers whose passion leads them to seek out positions in the industry; a common path for most, if not all of the men in the industry.

Call it � pardon my male slang � the "chick" and egg challenge. Which comes first? The woman player or the woman creator building a more female-friendly game?

Ultimately the answer may not lie in how, but when. With consoles like the Sony Playstation 2 occupying at least 40 percent of American households, more young girls than ever are growing up taking games as a given.

And finally, changes in the way games are built indicate less of a future demand for coders, but more of a demand for artists, producers, story tellers and designers � fields traditionally better represented by women.

"We've moved away from relying simply on code," said Della Rocca. "It's become more of an artistic medium."

So, in the years to come, thanks to social and technological forces, the game industry's reputation as a boys' club may be as out-dated as a copy of "Frogger."

Does this mean that future E3's will have G-stringed men gyrating alongside the "booth babes?" That's one trend I prefer not to think about. http://equipped.msn.com/article.aspx?aid=13

lightfire
2004-07-01, 04:15 AM
Does this mean that future E3's will have G-stringed men gyrating alongside the "booth babes?"

i, sure do hope so

QuakCow
2004-07-01, 04:16 AM
im sure this means eventually no more excessivley hot game babes >.>

SDM
2004-07-01, 04:42 AM
im sure this means eventually no more excessivley hot game babes >.>
Rest assured, as long as there are pasty lonely white guys coding games, there will always be excessively hot game babes. So it is written in the ancient texts.

Infernus
2004-07-01, 09:10 AM
im sure this means eventually no more excessivley hot game babes >.>

That is too horrible... they would nevar evar do such a thing...

Doop
2004-07-01, 10:50 AM
...I love Tifa...

Lartnev
2004-07-01, 10:55 AM
damnit... it's old freakin news :D

Glaynor
2004-07-01, 11:01 AM
"We were looking at these posters of women in outfits," Chu recalled. "And one turned to me and said, 'This is why women aren't in games."

Bullshit - women (as a whole) were never into games, even when the nintendo was around. Women (as a whole) have no interest in playing video games. Just like men don't want to play with dolls.

Hezzy
2004-07-01, 11:46 AM
Nearly all women think games are "sad".

This is the exact word I got from them. I don't think games are sad. I find them kinda happy and exciting.

Infernus
2004-07-01, 11:53 AM
Nearly all women think games are "sad".

This is the exact word I got from them. I don't think games are sad. I find them kinda happy and exciting.

Did they mean sad as in 'boho /me cries sad' or sad as in 'pathetic, for people with no life' sad?

Doop
2004-07-01, 12:08 PM
Actually, there are more gamer girls than you think. Most of them just don't go online and express it.

Hamma
2004-07-01, 12:13 PM
I know a bunch of woman gamers, including my very own Jenny. The DragonWolves have several woman gamers, at least 3-4. And I am sure there are tons more I dont know because they are too afraid to say they are woman.

Lets face it, they usually end up getting singled out.

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 12:47 PM
Looks like we're going to have some "Sim Shopping" and "Sim Beauty Salon" games coming out.

Ivan
2004-07-01, 12:48 PM
Looks like we're going to have some "Sim Shopping" and "Sim Beauty Salon" games coming out.
:lol: "Sim Beauty Salon" I'd so buy that!

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 12:51 PM
You'd have to balance your budgets, and keep up with all the latest girl friend gossip! But make sure you don't tell the wrong dirt to the wrong girl, or watch out!

Infernus
2004-07-01, 12:56 PM
"100 Simoleons ofr a French manecure?!! Ugh... I am so outta here..."

SDM
2004-07-01, 12:57 PM
You'd have to balance your budgets, and keep up with all the latest girl friend gossip! But make sure you don't tell the wrong dirt to the wrong girl, or watch out!
:lol: I can see it now, you'd get little warnings (kinda like 'spider sense')

*BIZZT*OMG SHEILA IS TALKING ABOUT YOU*BIZZT*

And you'd have a timer to go confront Shiela and get all in her face and say "Oh no you didn't" and "Bitch, PLEASE" and stuff like that. That would rule. :rofl:

Khronos
2004-07-01, 01:01 PM
:lol: I can see it now, you'd get little warnings (kinda like 'spider sense')

*BIZZT*OMG SHEILA IS TALKING ABOUT YOU*BIZZT*

And you'd have a timer to go confront Shiela and get all in her face and say "Oh no you didn't" and "Bitch, PLEASE" and stuff like that. That would rule. :rofl:

would you get like a super timer bonus and extra points or something for confronting her during THAT TIME OF THE MONTH??!?

if so, ill buy it, ive always wanted to E-pms

Infernus
2004-07-01, 01:03 PM
:lol: I can see it now, you'd get little warnings (kinda like 'spider sense')

*BIZZT*OMG SHEILA IS TALKING ABOUT YOU*BIZZT*

And you'd have a timer to go confront Shiela and get all in her face and say "Oh no you didn't" and "Bitch, PLEASE" and stuff like that. That would rule. :rofl:


Or *WARNING*<Insert slutty name here> has just stolen your boyfriend... initiating friend chain call system...*WARNING*
Then you launch a mission to ruin the girl by breaking her nails or ripping apart Mr. Fluffy-wuffy...

SDM
2004-07-01, 01:05 PM
would you get like a super timer bonus and extra points or something for confronting her during THAT TIME OF THE MONTH??!?

if so, ill buy it, ive always wanted to E-pmsDefinately.

There could also be 'EPIC' quests like 'Find your baby's daddy', and 'Lasso a man and break him'/'trick some poor schmuck into marrage' There are so many ways you could go with it, it boggles the mind. :lol:

Indecisive
2004-07-01, 01:20 PM
Ugh, I hate life sim games.

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 01:29 PM
Seriously though... I can't imagine what turn games will have once the femi-nazi's take control of video games.

Imagine a FPS setting. Your a girl just out of college. Your pumped up with your college degree and your contempt of the masculine gender. Armed with your mannish business suits and your seemingly limitless supply of "Sexual Harrasment" lawsuits, you set off to conquer the business world.

Climb the ladder of society with cut-throat business deals. Got a boss that's in your way? Attempt to seduce him, then slap him with a Sexual Harrasment lawsuit when he takes the bait. Or take him to bed with you and clobber him with a a rape claim. Now you've got his job.

I could go on.. but i'm afraid what the girls here are going to do to me as it is.


Ugh, I hate life sim games.

OMFG Gohan! Why do you keep insulting me?! You disagreed with the topic i was talking about! That means you insulted me! Your such a meany! *cry*

jk, i just wanted to show you how stupid that concept is. If it you think what I just said was retarded, welcome to the club.

SDM
2004-07-01, 01:38 PM
OMFG Gohan! Why do you keep insulting me?! You disagreed with the topic i was talking about! That means you insulted me! Your such a meany! *cry*

jk, i just wanted to show you how stupid that concept is. If it you think what I just said was retarded, welcome to the club.
Starting again are we? :no:

Infernus
2004-07-01, 01:41 PM
Omg Sim Daterape !!!!1!!!!111!

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 01:42 PM
Why do you feel the need to comment, SDM? The post after the quote was a joke, and i made it as nice as possible. Furthermore it was directed at Gohan, who is quite capable of responding for himself. I don't want to start anything, so i'd appreciate it if you'd stop hopping on my every post and PUT ME ON IGNORE. Obcession is a terrible thing.

SDM
2004-07-01, 01:43 PM
Tek, go troll some other board.


Omg Sim Daterape !!!!1!!!!111!Thats wrong on many levels Infernus. Besides they already have that, it's called GTA.:lol:

Dharkbayne
2004-07-01, 01:45 PM
Why do you feel the need to comment, SDM? The post after the quote was a joke, and i made it as nice as possible. Furthermore it was directed at Gohan, who is quite capable of responding for himself. I don't want to start anything, so i'd appreciate it if you'd stop hopping on my every post and PUT ME ON IGNORE. Obcession is a terrible thing.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeere we go... :rolleyes:

Infernus
2004-07-01, 01:47 PM
Tek, go troll some other board.


Thats wrong on many levels Infernus. Besides they already have that, it's called GTA.:lol:

Heh... school has yet to find that case of 'The Daterape drug' that went missing when the police did their drug presentation... all we know is that the art teacher (hot romanian with nice jubblies) was out cold for 8 hours...


EDIT: On a different note... lets not start another flame battle... it's been getting mighty annoying and I can't put you all on ignore...

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 01:49 PM
Omg Sim Daterape !!!!1!!!!111!

No offence, but why would females make a game like that? It makes no sence.

[EDIT] And here comes the bandwaggon. All from a post that had nothing to do with them and was between me and Gohan. Let's see how pathetic it gets.

SDM
2004-07-01, 01:49 PM
Heh... school has yet to find that case of 'The Daterape drug' that went missing when the police did their drug presentation... all we know is that the art teacher (hot romanian with nice jubblies) was out cold for 8 hours...
Did her butt hurt when she woke up?

http://img18.exs.cx/img18/9894/comicsig2.png

Infernus
2004-07-01, 01:50 PM
No offence, but why would females make a game like that? It makes no sence.

Cause you know they like the daterape... who doesn't... I know I do...



SDM... we don't know... all we know is she was stuck ins chool overnight... at the only other person that stays at school over night is the band conductor... (eww... fatsechs...)

Triggar
2004-07-01, 01:51 PM
I know that I should do the right thing and just sit back and let you run your course, but this last post of yours invokes the instinct in me that would normally make me punch you in the face, if you were in front of me.

Seriously though... I can't imagine what turn games will have once the femi-nazi's take control of video games.

You sexist motherfucker, do you really think all women who are "male-dominated" career fields are femi-nazis?? Go outside and experience the real world, you ignorant drain on society.

Your a girl just out of college. Your pumped up with your college degree and your contempt of the masculine gender. Armed with your mannish business suits and your seemingly limitless supply of "Sexual Harrasment" lawsuits, you set off to conquer the business world.

Climb the ladder of society with cut-throat business deals. Got a boss that's in your way? Attempt to seduce him, then slap him with a Sexual Harrasment lawsuit when he takes the bait. Or take him to bed with you and clobber him with a a rape claim. Now you've got his job.

Oh so now life is like a movie that you saw in 1986. Good job, you're up to date and have a completely accurate view of women in society. How did you manage to find a woman who agreed to marry you? Date rape drugs wear off after a certain amount of time. I strongly encourage you to go outside and actually converse with women, and get rid of your retarded, unfounded views of women with degrees, you ignorant fuck. I really do hate to be the one to storm in with the Reality Cloud, but women don't get college degrees just so they can stroll into work with a tight top on and get a promotion. Women get degrees for the same reason men do - to earn skills and qualifications necessary to do a specific job. I'm in college to become an airline pilot - do you think for one friggin second they'd let me be Captain of a 747 because I seduced my boss? No, you uneducated sack of shit. I, like everyone else on Earth - male or female, have to earn my successes.

jk, i just wanted to show you how stupid that concept is. If it you think what I just said was retarded, welcome to the club.

Get this through your thick, ugly skull - we don't give a shit that you have different views from the rest of us - welcome to society, no one agrees with anyone else. We don't like you because you're rude, condescending, derogatory, and ignorant. I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to succeed in society thusfar, but however leaching way you've managed to do it, I look forward to the day when I can pull up to a Burger King window and ask you to please hold the salt on my french fries.

EDIT: To all the upstanding members of the PSU community, allow me to apologise for my language in this post. When it comes to ignorant pricks like Tek, I have no patience and tolerance for the filth they spew.

Heavygain
2004-07-01, 01:53 PM
I know that I should do the right thing and just sit back and let you run your course, but this last post of yours invokes the instinct in me that would normally make me punch you in the face, if you were in front of me.



You sexist motherfucker, do you really think all women who are "male-dominated" career fields are femi-nazis?? Go outside and experience the real world, you ignorant drain on society.



Oh so now life is like a movie that you saw in 1986. Good job, you're up to date and have a completely accurate view of women in society. How did you manage to find a woman who agreed to marry you? Date rape drugs wear off after a certain amount of time. I strongly encourage you to go outside and actually converse with women, and get rid of your retarded, unfounded views of women with degrees, you ignorant fuck. I really do hate to be the one to storm in with the Reality Cloud, but women don't get college degrees just so they can stroll into work with a tight top on and get a promotion. Women get degrees for the same reason men do - to earn skills and qualifications necessary to do a specific job. I'm in college to become an airline pilot - do you think for one friggin second they'd let me be Captain of a 747 because I seduced my boss? No, you uneducated sack of shit. I, like everyone else on Earth - male or female, have to earn my successes.



Get this through your thick, ugly skull - we don't give a shit that you have different views from the rest of us - welcome to society, no one agrees with anyone else. We don't like you because you're rude, condescending, derogatory, and ignorant. I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to succeed in society thusfar, but however leaching way you've managed to do it, I look forward to the day when I can pull up to a Burger King window and ask you to please hold the salt on my french fries.
Wow. Pwnd

SDM
2004-07-01, 01:54 PM
I know that I should do the right thing and just sit back and let you run your course, but this last post of yours invokes the instinct in me that would normally make me punch you in the face, if you were in front of me.



You sexist motherfucker, do you really think all women who are "male-dominated" career fields are femi-nazis?? Go outside and experience the real world, you ignorant drain on society.



Oh so now life is like a movie that you saw in 1986. Good job, you're up to date and have a completely accurate view of women in society. How did you manage to find a woman who agreed to marry you? Date rape drugs wear off after a certain amount of time. I strongly encourage you to go outside and actually converse with women, and get rid of your retarded, unfounded views of women with degrees, you ignorant fuck. I really do hate to be the one to storm in with the Reality Cloud, but women don't get college degrees just so they can stroll into work with a tight top on and get a promotion. Women get degrees for the same reason men do - to earn skills and qualifications necessary to do a specific job. I'm in college to become an airline pilot - do you think for one friggin second they'd let me be Captain of a 747 because I seduced my boss? No, you uneducated sack of shit. I, like everyone else on Earth - male or female, have to earn my successes.



Get this through your thick, ugly skull - we don't give a shit that you have different views from the rest of us - welcome to society, no one agrees with anyone else. We don't like you because you're rude, condescending, derogatory, and ignorant. I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to succeed in society thusfar, but however leaching way you've managed to do it, I look forward to the day when I can pull up to a Burger King window and ask you to please hold the salt on my french fries.

EDIT: To all the upstanding members of the PSU community, allow me to apologise for my language in this post. When it comes to ignorant pricks like Tek, I have no patience and tolerance for the filth they spew.
BUSH/CHENEY '04 :rock:

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 01:55 PM
Feminist bashing. Insulting. Flaming. Childish remarks. No sence of humor. Can't tell a joke if it was strapped to a mac truck and ran me over. Crying. Whining. Overreacting. Melodrama.

Yeah...

Oooh! And then, for the sequel, you'd have to get yourself a husband! Your objective would be to break him down and force him to see that women are the stronger sex. Once you've completely whipped him, you win.

[EDIT] Watching this unfold is hilarious. You people are so obsessed it's funny. It would be pathetic if.. oh wait. It IS pathetic. Now i get to watch all of them slap Triggar's back for the idiotic, melodramatic, flame fest that was her post. Of course, if I did that i'd be a trolling, flaming, ass hole. But she's part of the club, so it's ok.

Dharkbayne
2004-07-01, 01:56 PM
I know that I should do the right thing and just sit back and let you run your course, but this last post of yours invokes the instinct in me that would normally make me punch you in the face, if you were in front of me.



You sexist motherfucker, do you really think all women who are "male-dominated" career fields are femi-nazis?? Go outside and experience the real world, you ignorant drain on society.



Oh so now life is like a movie that you saw in 1986. Good job, you're up to date and have a completely accurate view of women in society. How did you manage to find a woman who agreed to marry you? Date rape drugs wear off after a certain amount of time. I strongly encourage you to go outside and actually converse with women, and get rid of your retarded, unfounded views of women with degrees, you ignorant fuck. I really do hate to be the one to storm in with the Reality Cloud, but women don't get college degrees just so they can stroll into work with a tight top on and get a promotion. Women get degrees for the same reason men do - to earn skills and qualifications necessary to do a specific job. I'm in college to become an airline pilot - do you think for one friggin second they'd let me be Captain of a 747 because I seduced my boss? No, you uneducated sack of shit. I, like everyone else on Earth - male or female, have to earn my successes.



Get this through your thick, ugly skull - we don't give a shit that you have different views from the rest of us - welcome to society, no one agrees with anyone else. We don't like you because you're rude, condescending, derogatory, and ignorant. I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to succeed in society thusfar, but however leaching way you've managed to do it, I look forward to the day when I can pull up to a Burger King window and ask you to please hold the salt on my french fries.

EDIT: To all the upstanding members of the PSU community, allow me to apologise for my language in this post. When it comes to ignorant pricks like Tek, I have no patience and tolerance for the filth they spew.

http://gphan.com/pics/albums/omghi2u/pwnedduck_001.jpg

Infernus
2004-07-01, 01:56 PM
I know that I should do the right thing and just sit back and let you run your course, but this last post of yours invokes the instinct in me that would normally make me punch you in the face, if you were in front of me.



You sexist motherfucker, do you really think all women who are "male-dominated" career fields are femi-nazis?? Go outside and experience the real world, you ignorant drain on society.



Oh so now life is like a movie that you saw in 1986. Good job, you're up to date and have a completely accurate view of women in society. How did you manage to find a woman who agreed to marry you? Date rape drugs wear off after a certain amount of time. I strongly encourage you to go outside and actually converse with women, and get rid of your retarded, unfounded views of women with degrees, you ignorant fuck. I really do hate to be the one to storm in with the Reality Cloud, but women don't get college degrees just so they can stroll into work with a tight top on and get a promotion. Women get degrees for the same reason men do - to earn skills and qualifications necessary to do a specific job. I'm in college to become an airline pilot - do you think for one friggin second they'd let me be Captain of a 747 because I seduced my boss? No, you uneducated sack of shit. I, like everyone else on Earth - male or female, have to earn my successes.



Get this through your thick, ugly skull - we don't give a shit that you have different views from the rest of us - welcome to society, no one agrees with anyone else. We don't like you because you're rude, condescending, derogatory, and ignorant. I have absolutely no idea how you've managed to succeed in society thusfar, but however leaching way you've managed to do it, I look forward to the day when I can pull up to a Burger King window and ask you to please hold the salt on my french fries.

EDIT: To all the upstanding members of the PSU community, allow me to apologise for my language in this post. When it comes to ignorant pricks like Tek, I have no patience and tolerance for the filth they spew.

Trigowned...

seriously... what she says makes sense... welcome to the world of equal rights...

Triggar
2004-07-01, 01:59 PM
Haha, Tek, keep talking. Every piece of ignorant filth that comes out of your herpes-riddled mouth is just backing up our argument that you are a useless douche bag.

Keep talking, buddy. Go ahead.

TekDragon
2004-07-01, 01:59 PM
What she said does not make sence. Guaranteed most of these people didn't even bother reading her melodramatic, holier-than-thou post. The point is, it's all hypocracy. If I had made that post, i'd be getting tag teamed for being an "asshole". Since she made the post, she gets her ass kissed.

Again, it's be hilarious if it wasn't so blatantly pathetic.

Ouroboros
2004-07-01, 01:59 PM
Well, another thread bites the dust.