Sparrow Nerfed?

[Real Mulambo]

Since the recent patch I have been unable to get a lock on a LIB unless it is really low down.
Is this the case for all the other SPARROW users?
I can find no mention of this in the patch notes but maybe I have missed something.
No more taking them out when they are in high bombing formation.
If this is intentional it is NASTY!!!

[Lartnev]

Nah, it technically got buffed, but then got bug fixed:

http://psforums.station.sony.com/ps/board/message?board.id=pstestserver&message.id=6179#M6179

The oversight in the patch notes was due to the fact that Spork and I didn't know the change had been pushed Live (we though it was scheduled for the next patch).

That change was this:

Ranges on the Starfire and Sparrow were extended from 270m to 350m.

Vertical range is now checked properly when using a lock-on weapon. Previously, only horizontal range was being checked. This was incorrect and resulted in the Starfire and Sparrow being able to hit objects beyond their intended range.

This is resolved now.

Defensive aircraft should be used to prevent high altitude intrusion into your airspace. AA is effective at destroying low- to mid-range altitude aircraft. The TR Burster can fire 500m, but is not guided and must "lead" its targets manually in order to score a hit.

[ORANGE]

this is to fix for the fact that the burster hasn't been able to hit libbys flying at max altitude but the sparrow and that other vs one have

EDIT: I should say however that that only applies on continents where the max alt is really high not places like ceryshen

[Lartnev]

Well now the only AA MAX that has a hope of hitting a lib at max altitude is the burster :D

[Sentrosi]

And that, honestly is about a 10% chance. You'll have to lead the target out ahead a WHOLE lot just to hit it. Then it's probably not even worth hitting. Therefore, I do not want to see any OMGNERFTEHBURSTER threads because I know that they're coming. Put down your nerfthrowers, hike up your garter belt wearing AA MAX armors and just dig in.

[ORANGE]

sentrosiowned

[Lartnev]

I'm not too bad when it comes to hitting Libs with a burster... even took one down in the last playtest. The result of a lot practice, and eating a lot of liberator bombs :D

But yeah it's not really a massive advantage over the StarFire and Sparrow.

[Firefly]

It's not a nerf. It's a balance adjustment.

And yeah - the Burster can hit it, but stop bitching. The Burster, unlike other MAXes, does not lock on. It's a flak-based weapon (lame). And you have to lead it essentially one screen length away from the aircraft and pray to God that you're not at sea level.

Previously your AAMAXes were the only things that could hit it, and it took one out in a single pass. So yeah. You've been taken down a few pegs and brought into line with the rest of us. Boofuckinghoo.

[Madcow]

There is still a bug, however. While the range is 350, you actually can't acquire a lock until 250. They know about it, but I haven't heard when they'll fix it. As of right now, Sparrow and Starfire are gimped pretty badly.

[Warborn]

So the Burster can hit stuff at really long range, but isn't as good at medium range vehicles due to its lack of lockdown. Seems fair, and it's nice to have some more variety in the MAXs too.

[Doppler]

Actualy i personnaly find it bullshit that they are nerfing any of the anti-air max's. If i had my way not only whould the burster be able to hit cieling but it whould calculate how much lead you need to hit the flying target. (Play starsiege to see what i mean) in addition the flak should have an ever so slight adjustment in flight capability. I find sporks conclusion that you should be forced to have Combat Air Patroll to police liberators, when so many times for a sieged defense thats just not an option, giving liberators immunity while reavers and mosssies can already swoop in on AA maxs thanks to their crappy lock on bugs, in addition to the upcoming flying one seated max, no point in playing infantry folks.

[Madcow]

Unfortunately, I agree with that. To use Liberators you should be forced to go in numbers, with escort and full planes to make sure you have a tail gunner. I'm afraid Liberators are about to get as bad as Flails, and those damn things shouldn't even be in the game.

[Cauldron Borne]

ddbq needs to post here....

and the other two empires can shut up about their 'gimped' maxes. How's it feel to be on the shit end of the stick for once? yer stupid AA maxes STILL work for AI maxes in a pinch...ours does shit to infantry.

Also: a StarFire can JUMP UP 100m. With that sort of extra height boost, you have 50m with witch to fire at a max alt Libby....not to mention trees....or standing on mountains where planes can't reach you and shooting DOWN on them...

[Doppler]

Cauldron, take your medicine, i dont see any posts on this thread about people saying the burster is imbalanced, there are many her,e myself included, that find the concept of an anti air max that cant hit aircraft retarted.

[KIAsan]

Yeah, gotta agree here, VS and NC should just remain silent in this case. We have been on the receiving end of this since libs were added ingame. I must say though, it was great going on lib runs again, where all you worry about is enemy air!!!!!

Now if we can just get our burster on par with the NC/VS AA max ability to kill troops. Either nerf those two down to our level, or buff the burster so it does equal damage to infantry (and Remove splash damage from theirs too!!!).

[Cauldron Borne]

Does anyone remember the first days of the Liberator?

The Digital Marines were the first Emerald outfit to utilize the Liberator in co-ordinated and organized flight patterns.... ahh those were the days! Thank you to all those Tree-Huggin' Cery Bridge jumpin' hippies! I am almost POSITIVE that after that eventful night the number of people cert'd in Liberators and Skyguards went up....


(Oh, and I'm not on medication. My doc says that while I am mildly psychotic, it is not enough for me to need medication of any form.....)

[_-Gunslinger-_]

Or make it so only a driect hit with a burster does our damage and make splash has the same damage degredation ours has (Say you lose 50% if you hit 2m away). This means that the bursters spalsh would still do no damage at 5m or so but you could still kill infantry with it.

Note: This would balance the bursters AI capabitlity making it more viable on the field. However giving them a decent spalsh could tip it in thier favor.

[Firefly]

there are many her,e myself included, that find the concept of an anti air max that cant hit aircraft retarted.
The concept of two MAXes being able to lock on or simply blast a Lib at max service ceiling while one MAX was not able to hit something at the max ceiling without serious protractors, calculators, and an alcohol-erase marker and some acetate overlays to calculate the mean arc trajectory and angle of barrel... that's what we find retarded.

So now it's all have issues or none. That's what I call balance.

[Lartnev]

Note: This would balance the bursters AI capabitlity making it more viable on the field. However giving them a decent spalsh could tip it in thier favor.

AA MAXs shouldn't be viable AI, period.

there are many her,e myself included, that find the concept of an anti air max that cant hit aircraft retarted.

Sorta like how the AV MAXs can't hit vehicles then? :)

Seriously, they can still protect assets, just not without help. Just out of curiousity, what is the max range of the Skyguard?

[Dharkbayne]

Or make it so only a driect hit with a burster does our damage and make splash has the same damage degredation ours has (Say you lose 50% if you hit 2m away). This means that the bursters spalsh would still do no damage at 5m or so but you could still kill infantry with it.

Note: This would balance the bursters AI capabitlity making it more viable on the field. However giving them a decent spalsh could tip it in thier favor.

It's an explosive shell, how would its splash damage degrade? :doh:

[Lartnev]

Physics Dharkbayne, physics.

[Doppler]

The concept of two MAXes being able to lock on or simply blast a Lib at max service ceiling while one MAX was not able to hit something at the max ceiling without serious protractors, calculators, and an alcohol-erase marker and some acetate overlays to calculate the mean arc trajectory and angle of barrel... that's what we find retarded.

So now it's all have issues or none. That's what I call balance.

Firefly, meet logic, logic meet firefly.

I cant do anything about the developers choice to have the terran republic use WW2 era tech. If i could give you guys a dual missile launcher or even a specialized dual chaingun that has a far faster flight time and greater range and does almost nil damage to anything but aircraft but takes them out in less then a clip i whould. But i cant.

You've always been able to hit stuff at flight ceiling, its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be (i have logged quite a bit of time in the burster and they do rock if applied propoerly) should it be easier, see above paragraph. However..... having 2 ANTI AIR maxes, not able to hit air at flight cieling is retarted. Its getting worse, reavers are figuring that they can hover at almost flight cieling and just rocket spam tower doors with impunity. I mean god forbid they whould have given the libs somethng like limited use countermeasures, rather then making them straight up invulnerable.

Seriously, anyone whod design an anti-air system that couldnt effectively intercept aircraft at the flight cieling whould be sent back to the drawing board. Even the U2 got shot down occasionaly.

[Lartnev]

Phalanx Turrets still hit the ceiling, although they tend not to worry libs that much. Skyguards are still an option, as are other aircraft.

In world war two, Air superiority was paramount, despite the presence of AAA. Without it your bombers perished or you got strafed and bombed to hell. Same goes for both Gulf wars, the Americans would have lost severely in Vietnam had it not been for their A-4s, Hueys and B52s. I suppose in a way with this bug fix they've inadvertantly made air superiority a major concern on the battlefield.

[Madcow]

Phalanx Turrets still hit the ceiling, although they tend not to worry libs that much. Skyguards are still an option, as are other aircraft.

First of all, are you sure the Phalanx reaches the ceiling from all bases? It really doesn't seem like the range is enough, especially since you can't shoot straight up. Secondly, show me a man who sits in a Phalanx Turret during Liberator strikes and I'll suggest he changes his name to ISpawnOften.

[Lartnev]

Me, and most of the time I'm not an important enough target to a lib bbomber ;)

Then again, I'm used to being a non-moving target :D

[Desperado]

if it were up to me I would nerf AA into the ground :bouncy:

[Cauldron Borne]

The Phalanx Turrets hit flight cealing. If you ever noticed they relatiate if you don't kill them with the first load of bombs. The AI just doesn't track very well and thus doesn't hurt you too much.


God forbid we should have to use COMBINED arms in this game....oh the horror that we can no longer use our three piece combo of: AA max, Tank, and HA.... now we actually have to USE those reavers/mossies for something other than spam killing infantry..... the horror!
/end sarcasm...

[ORANGE]

Its getting worse, reavers are figuring that they can hover at almost flight cieling and just rocket spam tower doors with impunity. I mean god forbid they whould have given the libs somethng like limited use countermeasures, rather then making them straight up invulnerable.
First off welcome to how the tr have felt on most conts that don't have a super low flight ceiling as far as the reaver rocket spam is concerned and secondly, even a really crappy mossy pilot can take down a libby no problem

[Madcow]

God forbid we should have to use COMBINED arms in this game....oh the horror that we can no longer use our three piece combo of: AA max, Tank, and HA.... now we actually have to USE those reavers/mossies for something other than spam killing infantry..... the horror!
/end sarcasm...

What are you talking about? Now they've actually eliminated combined arms in the case of Liberators. Now you don't need a flight escort, or often even a full crew in order to inflict massive amounts of damage. So the combined arms they are now encouraging is during base sieges when it's damn near impossible to get anything in the air anyhow to try and stop the 2 guys in the Lib laughing hysterically.

[ORANGE]

since when do you not need a flight escort for libbys, I can take down 3 libbys before they take down my mossy if they have a tail gunner, if they have a flight escort I usually get shot down after the first one if I'm lucky

[Doppler]

So what your saying is infantry should have to use combined arms, but aircraft which already operate just about completely autonomous (mid air repair reload anyone at any tower, fastest movement rate, ability to ignore terrain, yea these guys are real combined arms masterpeices. The point cauldron is usualy those who are gettign taken to town by liberat0ors dont ahve the option of libs, their sieged in cant get their own aircraft off the ground and are basicly reduced to just trying to dodge the bombs.



God forbid we should have to use COMBINED arms in this game....oh the horror that we can no longer use our three piece combo of: AA max, Tank, and HA.... now we actually have to USE those reavers/mossies for something other than spam killing infantry..... the horror!
/end sarcasm...

[Doppler]

I dare you to bring your mossy at the lib i'm gunning or piloting for you might eventualy get us down, after disengaging and flying off to repair about 8 times.

[Lartnev]

Would someone please remember that the reason the skyguard was introduced to the game was to counter the liberator, you all seem to be forgetting about it.

[Sentrosi]

Funny how the NC and Vanu are now complaining vehimently about our AA Max.

STFU. Learn to deal with the fact that your reaver and liberator pilots now have to learn the skills that the TR have had to learn since release.

Someone needs to lock any thread that has the word nerf in it. Take it to the OF. Not to my forums here.

[Doppler]

Sentrosi i dont see anyone complaining about the TR max, i see a lot of people, myself included, complaining that changing the NC and VS Max's further imbalances airpower because the lib is not the only aircraft that can take advantage of flight ceiling. But somehow you guys keep talking about "i hat epeople talking about nerfing the TR max" when no one is discussing that. What were are disturbing is the further hemroging of any point to playing ground troops other then the 2 mins required to go into a base and hack it and blow the tubes.

[Lartnev]

I think their point with the TR Burster is the TR burster has always had problems hitting aircraft at that height, and now the Starfire and Sparrow have been put in the same boat.

Don't shoot the messenger :(

[JetRaiden]

I think their point with the TR Burster is the TR burster has always had problems hitting aircraft at that height, and now the Starfire and Sparrow have been put in the same boat.

Don't shoot the messenger :(

yea thats true. but I saw a thread on teh OF about putting some AA stuff on the back of a gal (jumping down from the catwalks) putting gunnners in it and then elevating to near max. altitude. BAM aerial AA platform. Id like to see how effective that is.

[KIAsan]

i see a lot of people, myself included, complaining that changing the NC and VS Max's further imbalances airpower because the lib is not the only aircraft that can take advantage of flight ceiling.

Well, think about this a minute or two. If reducing NC and VS ability to hit max altitude aircraft imbalances airpower, what exactly was balanced by TR never being able to hit max altitude aircraft? This is what many TR find so aggravating. It was ok for TR to live with imbalanced airpower, but the second that is changed to all empires, then we get folks who are all upset? WHERE was your outrage before this change over TR's living with imbalanced airpower?

[ORANGE]

Well, think about this a minute or two. If reducing NC and VS ability to hit max altitude aircraft imbalances airpower, what exactly was balanced by TR never being able to hit max altitude aircraft? This is what many TR find so aggravating. It was ok for TR to live with imbalanced airpower, but the second that is changed to all empires, then we get folks who are all upset? WHERE was your outrage before this change over TR's living with imbalanced airpower?
/me hugs KIAsan

[Doppler]

Well, think about this a minute or two. If reducing NC and VS ability to hit max altitude aircraft imbalances airpower, what exactly was balanced by TR never being able to hit max altitude aircraft? This is what many TR find so aggravating. It was ok for TR to live with imbalanced airpower, but the second that is changed to all empires, then we get folks who are all upset? WHERE was your outrage before this change over TR's living with imbalanced airpower?

I feel like i keep restating myself, and its a complete waste of time. I'm not saying that the TR never had an issue with their AA max, i'm saying that nerfing all the maxs down to where they are now when they are ANTI AIR maxs is stupid. If the TR want a better max they need to take that up with the developers, and i whould totaly support them getting a better AA max. However i cant support this attitude of "Well now your not as uber as us blah" because i feel more kinship with my fellow AA max users then i do with my empires pilots. Basicly you need to sit back, take a deep breath and stop going by "well finnaly we got one up on you" and looking at what the overall problems are that need fix. Because at the end of the day, were not NC or TR or VS were all planetside players, and the empires need to be balanced, but in this case taking capabilities from an empire is not the answer.

Edited for clairity.

[Firefly]

Firefly, meet logic, logic meet firefly.
Doppler, meet sarcasm, sarcasm meet doppler.

I know where you're coming from - I'm not saying you're against anything. I see your point and I was agreeing with you.

Have a nice day.

[Doppler]

Then i apologize.

[Cauldron Borne]

The only time i go away from a fight in my mosquito is to reload. Tanks do it to. So do all the other vehicles that live long enough to do so. I rarely use airtowers because they are a favorite place for AA maxes to camp.

I will down your lib in one pass. My mossy can fly circles around your liberator, i don't care HOW good a pilot you are. I FREQUENTLY barge into base seiges where Libs are pounding the base and hammer them. It works both ways, you know. Those attacking AA maxes can't reach you either. and if you complain of beinf 'trapped' inside a base, you have two options:

knuckle down and defend the interior

OR

Do as all good pilots do and bind at a different base so that you can bring your planes in from a different direction. a more UNEXPECTED direction.

no, planes are not single vehicle masters of this game. You cannot take ground with planes. you need tanks and infantry for that. No matter how that reaver 'owns; you outside, he cannot cap that base or tower from the cocpit. So they have more positions to reload from....so take them away from them. So camp them with your 'crippled' aa maxes.


Oh yeah: planes DO have to pay attention to detail, if they want to live long enough to get to the fight. you fly high, yer aa food. you fly low, yer tree bait.

[Firefly]

Then i apologize.
I stab your apology and then flame it some more.

Flame flame flame! FIRE!! Ffffff-FIRE! :D

[KIAsan]

If the TR want a better max they need to take that up with the developers, and i whould totaly support them getting a better AA max.

That's a fair thing to say. Agree 100%. HOWEVER, where the heck were all of you buff the burster fans, when we were continually assaulting the devs to fix the Lib at ceiling problem. Search back over these and the official forums and you will see similar threads dating back to the introduction of the LIB. I don't recall hardly any NC or VS support of our complaints to the devs. In fact, I saw many posts along the lines of "learn how to use it". Well, we have learned how to use it, and complained about getting ours fixed. The devs, as usual, choose the more conterversial approach. This is not the fault of TR. And folks like me find it extremely humorous that the firestorm from NC and VS comes only AFTER they are affected too.

Well, things are set now, so complaining isn't going to bring back the salad days of NC/VS air superiority. Now, you need to do like TR has done, and learn how to dumb fire your AA maxes (don't forget to lead).

BTW, I am going to be a bit psychic here and predict the coming "Nerf the Burster" approach that will soon be hitting the forums, once they figure out that TR can still kill libs at ceiling. Yeah, that's right, while we were being told to "learn how to use it", we went out and did it. I have a burster cert, and can kill stationary libs at ceiling with ease. Because of this, TR now have the ability of hovering over bases and carpet bombing, while NC and VS do not (at least until you "learn how to use your maxes").

BTW, this is not directed at you personally Doppler, just at this attitude now that NC/VS have been nerfed. I for one do agree, they should have buffed the burster to do the same job as the VS and NC, not the other way around.

[Cauldron Borne]

we need to get ddbq in here. The master of all that is Burster can set all this strait. In a world where only one AA max requires any sort of aiming skill, ddbq is KING! BWUAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Lartnev]

AA MAXs should not be the end all in AA defence. Until this point they were for the VS and NC, and now you have to think about using more than just your trusty StarFires and Sparrows to engage air targets.

Whilst I understand your "if they designed something that couldn't hit the flight ceiling it'd be retarded" statements, I still think that when you compare the AA MAX to the AV MAX, the AA MAX users still get it a lot easier.

The best thing to counter a vehicle is another vehicle. The best way to attack a Tank is with another tank. The best way to attack aircraft is with another aircraft, or a AA vehicle. MAXs are second best, a guy with an AV cert is in third.

[Ait'al]

The vs' only easy route is AA(its also the most needed since Air is our biggest weakness if you take AA away). The rest take skill and work when in the light of what comes at us in a head on battle. It fits into our weapons design too. We need to get the air off in some way so we can concetrate on our other weapons types. This is ontop of the fact the from the vs side we ahve two empires that can kill our maxs with ease(One who can remain hidden, and the other with lockon), so our strong AA is a max. Hence its balance. As for the nc thats a different story but they have enough shitty stuff besides the jackhammer. It does get boring as hell using any of their stuff after 5 minutes. 8)

[Doppler]

Well in response to Ait, your tank makes a pretty spiffy anti air platform itself. AA max's for any empire have never been the be all and end all defense. It is not unusual these days for a shielded reaver to burst up to AA max and rocket spam it to death before it can be killed (yet another issue i have with reavers) or just come up behind it in a large melee (maybe i just suck but this seems to happen a lot to me since reavers are just shy of run quiet.

The skyguard is an ok platform, but is afflicted by being fragile (its a buggy) ammo issues (what were they thinking) being big (can we say target) and having flak, which means it doesnt hit a highpseed moving target for crap, and thats what it need to do to combat aircraft. Given these choices i'd almost rather have my max for static defenses.

[Lartnev]

Well let's ask the devs to give the Skyguard some love :D

[Madcow]

My only real issue with the Skyguard is the light armor. I'd say up the armor significantly, take away the machine gun and keep the high speed. You'd have a true AA platform which could do only minimal damage to troops/ground vehicles but could survive in the field a bit longer, wouldn't be so allergic to mines and could still have the speed to track or outrun aircraft.

[Lartnev]

which could do only minimal damage to troops/ground vehicles

The flak gun is better against infantry than the machine gun :(

The rest I agree with :)

[JakeLogan]

The flak gun is better against infantry than the machine gun :(

The rest I agree with :)
Thats what I never understood. If the Bursters' troop killing capability was nerfed why wasan't the skyguards? same weapon system after all.

[Doppler]

3 Certs, two gunners, requires a tech plant. Not saying its makes sense, but i do understand it from a balance prospect.

[Silencer101]

The devs could fix this by just giveing the TR A lock on missle like 50 tiny missles fly out at once. The max would have lock on and lockdown to fire like a hundred of the tiny missles no more grumbleing about "the NC and VS have lock on while we have the Burster Max that cant lock on and cant improvise to kill infantry!" :tear:

Then Everyone would be happy :trrocks: :ncrocks: :vsrocks: for a while :D

[Meursault00]

I like the idea, small payload, short refire rate, lock on, long reload time. Seems ideal for the TR.

I feel that the time for painting a target should be longer than the Sparrow though.

[Peacemaker]

I just played for the first time since they implemented the 350 range. I must say this buff is absolute BULLSHIT. You cant go anywhere NEAR an NC or VS base without getting shot down. Even at a nice 200m you cant get awaay from the proj with full burners. The AA maxs for NC and VS are now HEAVILY over powered. Like Lasher 2.0 overpowered. ANything at low alt cant get NEAR a base. The high alt is all you can use now.

[Cauldron Borne]

Unless yer me :D !

I spent the day using my Kamikazi Mosquito to great effect:
Come SCREAMING into an AA max, Bail at last possible second. The mossie kills the aa max, I pull out my Striker and kill his buddy on my way down. Then I kill a cloaker and get owned by a Lasher..... WOO FRIGGIN HOO YOU VANU BASTARDS! BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[Doppler]

Errr what buff dude? Did i miss a buff?

I just played for the first time since they implemented the 350 range. I must say this buff is absolute BULLSHIT. You cant go anywhere NEAR an NC or VS base without getting shot down. Even at a nice 200m you cant get awaay from the proj with full burners. The AA maxs for NC and VS are now HEAVILY over powered. Like Lasher 2.0 overpowered. ANything at low alt cant get NEAR a base. The high alt is all you can use now.

[KIAsan]

Hmm, I think this may have been rolled back. I flew extensively in my lib (at max altitude) on multiple continents, and was getting locked on and shot by NC and VS maxes (and I was more than 350 meters considering altitude and distance).

[Meursault00]

Maybe they were jumping up on the roofs of the installations, on top of the trees, or on the mountains.

[Madcow]

Hmm, I think this may have been rolled back. I flew extensively in my lib (at max altitude) on multiple continents, and was getting locked on and shot by NC and VS maxes (and I was more than 350 meters considering altitude and distance).

I can guarantee it wasn't rolled back. I certed Sparrow last week just so that I could see the different changes in action, and at about 75% of the bases you absolutely can not lock onto the flight ceiling. Some bases are just a higher elevation and those seem defensible. I spent more time running around trying to find a way onto the tops of mountains than I did shooting. Perhaps others were more successful than I was and that might explain your issue. Liberators are running roughshod for the most part, as are Reavers and Mossies from what I'm seeing. They're all at the flight ceiling giving us the bird.

As for the AA MAXs being too powerful now, I'm afraid I can't agree. I was getting more kills before they extended the lock, and I think I've got figured out why. The lock for the Sparrow is 350 (after about a 1 second paint), the range on the Sparrow missiles is 450. So if I'm lucky enough to get a second to paint my target, and get 2-3 shots off (they're back beyond 350 before I can get more than that) all they have to do is turn and afterburn 100 meters and they're safe. That's really not too tough. When the lock was 250 meters, you had to clear 200 meters to get away and that's not nearly as easy (especially when there is less distance between you and the missile to begin with). As of now, the Sparrow is far more effective at chasing air away than actually destroying air.

[Cauldron Borne]

Me and my burster have no problems nailing cealing libbies :D


seriously, though: cert skyguard. That thing ROCKS against air. I just stayed in it and got ten kills before I ran outta ammo, and I'm a horrible shot. The only reason I stopped was the owner locked the trunk and left....so i ran outta ammo....