My Dark Light Crusade

[Madcow]

I despise Dark Light in it's current incarnation. I honestly believe it to be the least thought out and unbalanced of all of the implants which encourages players to rely less on skill and more on the crutch this is that implant. I am of course insanely biased because I mainly cloak, but I think these changes (some or all) would greatly enhance the game.

Dark Light should not be available in 3rd person view. Seriously. What kind of sense does this make? The fact that people can make 360 degree Dark Light sweeps without moving their mouse is absurd.

Dark Light should not be available while inside vehicles. If you're in a vehicle and you're overly concerned about a cloaker being nearby drive or fly away. I had Sensor Shield on the other night and a mosquito pilot knew I was in the area because I'd just mined his Prowler buddy to death while he was repairing. I made it out of the immediate vicinity before the Mossy arrived, and he began to sweep at almost ground level looking for me, very slowly until he found me and ran me through. A pilot hovering right off the ground searching for a ground troop? Stupidity. The game should not encourage situations in which somebody is able to play with nearly zero danger to themselves in a scenario in which they also stand to gain a reward.

Dark Light should not reveal AMS bubbles, ever. I don't believe it was ever an intended side effect to Dark Light and I think it detracts from the game. I hate Dark Light with a passion and I almost consider getting it just for this effect. Toss it.

Not only should Dark Light not reveal mines, it should blind you from them. You choose to use Dark Light, you choose to take chances where you're stepping. This is just another 'added benefit' that makes Dark Light too much.

Lastly, my crusade for a while now. Dark Light just doesn't have enough downside to it's use. Besides all the side benefits, you get the main benefit of revealing armorless foes who most likely aren't armed with anything that can take you down in time. The cost? Limited visibility (neglible due to 'flickering') and stamina drain (negligible due to 'flickering'). My proposal? Lock the implant. You turn on Dark Light, it stays on for 10 seconds. If you're running, your stamina obviously drains faster. You're stuck for 10 seconds with a limited field of view. In a firefight, it might be near suicide. If this is done, I guarantee people will be pretty damn sure a cloaker is around before they turn the implant on rather than flickering it in every random situation. Additionally, after it is used there should be a 'recharge' time of maybe 30 seconds. If you find a cloaker in that 10 seconds but don't blast them, your loss. You'd better hope you can keep them in your sights because DL just isn't available at the moment.

I have a hard time understanding why any of these would cause true issues with the player base, except those talentless hacks who are relying on those cheap kills anyhow. And piss those people off as far as I'm concerned.

[Lartnev]

Dark Light should not reveal AMS bubbles, ever. I don't believe it was ever an intended side effect to Dark Light and I think it detracts from the game. I hate Dark Light with a passion and I almost consider getting it just for this effect. Toss it.

Makes perfect sense to me. AMS cloaked, darklight detects cloaked things, darklight detects AMS bubbles.

As for the rest of the darklight stuff, I dunno. I think it's unfair to say that people use it for cheap kills. I feel vulnerable without darklight because I don't like the idea of people sneaking up on me and boomering me etc. It's not for cheap kills, but survival.

Now, having said that I do agree that darklight should have more downsides than it does, but the devs have said that an implant balance pass is a long way off so I guess it would do better to talk about it nearer such times.

However, I do have one crazy idea. So crazy it might just work. The crazy idea is that only cloakers can use darklight. Discuss :D

[Madcow]

Dark Light reveals cloaked things, true, but I still believe it's just too much to have it show AMS locations. The AMS is fragile enough as it is, it's not like it's impossible to find them without it (trust me, I jack them just about every play session and I refuse to use Dark Light). It's just too much.

If you think it's unfair to say that people use it for cheap kills, you probably haven't spent a lot of time in the infil suit. You can be the stealthiest mofo on the face of the earth, not stopping to stick a knife between anybody's ribs, and some jackass will 'flicker' not because of suspicion but because it has become a built-in part of their routine. Suddenly all of your skillful, patient hard work is down the tubes not because somebody is better than you, or smarter than you, but because they can use this implant without any down side and 'flicker' it in every situation. It sucks the skill right out of the game.

As for feeling vulnerable, without Dark Light I killed 3 cloakers the other night while playing. All of them were stationary when I got to them. I killed all 3 with my knife. I'm not saying that to brag, I'm saying that because Dark Light has become such a damn crutch. If you don't use Dark Light, you quickly pick out the movements that announce where a cloaker is. The suit is far from overpowered. Most ground troops have spammy type weapons anyhow and can certainly afford a few rounds in those scary corners if they don't want to use the implant.

How you can run around in Rexo, with HA, and feel proud of blasting a cloaker that you sighted with Dark Light is beyond me. They need to quit sucking the challenge out of the game, and I don't feel like waiting for the implant balance pass that was promised 6 months ago.

[Lartnev]

I never said I felt proud about killing a cloaker, and I know all about going stealthily through a base and suddenly some MAX or rexo git mows you down. I've even felt sorry for killing some cloakers given the right situation.

Most of the time I find AMSs without darklight (it's not exactly hard, just look at where people are coming from), I was just saying that it does make sense. It also technically makes sense for wraiths, the phantasm and mines since they're all cloaked things.

I'm glad you have the eyes of a hawk and can pick out moving cloakers and knife them without darklight. I don't have that luxary. Whilst I don't require darklight, I like to have it "just in case." You know "was that a cloaker who just ran past me or just a figment of my imagination." I like to be sure that I haven't just let a cloaker through who could, potentially, cause a few problems.

Now, could you please get it out of your head that everyone and anyone who uses darklight is skillless because it's not true, people do use darklight because it's a handy implant and not because they want to get cheap kills on vulnerable players. Otherwise you'll just end up with arguments like this one. That was all unnecessary, why? Because I agree with you. Darklight's advantages far outweigh its disadvantages and that needs to change.

[Madcow]

The only skill-less comments I made were about the people who I thought would have issues with my proposals. The talent-less hacks as I referred to them. I never said that was every player, and I'm not even sure where you got that from. What I have said is that the implant is a crutch (I still believe that to be true, I saw cloakers far less when I used Dark Light than I do since I've opted to not use the implant), and that the implant is used for cheap kills. Not by everybody, not all the time. The implant needs a detrimental effect beyond the superficial ones built into it.

I still believe that each of my ideas is well thought-out, and I certainly welcome opinions which differ from mine. I'm glad to see your AMS ideas, I don't think that my AMS explanation makes much sense (yours makes far more sense) but at the same time I feel like the AMS just needs a little more love. They just get popped too quickly, and that seems a minor fix to possibly keep them alive just a little longer.

By the way, the comment about being proud of blasting a cloaker wasn't aimed at you directly. I've noticed an increase in people that will send "Owned!" tells or the like after mowing me down with an MCG while standing there in Rexo and flickering Dark Light. That's not owned. You're supposed to win that match up. Hell, if you don't win that match up there's a distinct possibility you rode the short bus to school.

[Lartnev]

They'd say owned to killing people who are linkdead so I wouldn't worry about it ;)

I think the reason AMSs get popped so quickly is probably because people are just getting a lot more used to where they get put and how to spot where they are. I mean Darklight helps, but really you have to know pretty much where they are already to know where to look.

Is my idea crazy? :)

[Madcow]

It's crazy and also nigh impossible to implement. I'm one of the few people that I know of in game who plays infil almost exclusively, but I still jump into agile when I'm in a vehicle often times so I can help repair. So would I have an implant that was just taking up space if I was in agile? I guess it would make Bio Labs a little more important, but it still seems a bit unwieldy to have a useless implant like that.

[Cauldron Borne]

Mines are not invisible, thus they should not be revealed through DLV.

I like the idea of a time delay on DLV. 10 sec mandetory on and 30 sec mandetory rest.

DLV from behind doesn't even make SENSE. it's an EYE implant...

the DLV range needs to be shortened, too in my opinion. You can see the cloaker from about 100 meters away. With DLV on i think you should only see stuff that is 10m away. Period. after that it all goes black.

My favorite way to piss off DLV users is to stand outside of their effective range and lob grenades or shoot them with a repeater. annoys the hell outta them.

STORY: a rexo walks by me and flickers dlv when his back it turned to me. he turns around and shoots me. Sends me a tell 'PWNED'. I send him one back 'you can't spell....OWNED!' I then proceed to knife kill him five times successivly....

[EarlyDawn]

I think darklight needs a new mechanic behind it. Something more fun. Prehaps, it takes a "snapshot" of the surrounding area, and displays it for you so you can see cloakers.

However, if any cloaker is crafty enough, he can get away while the implant recharges.

With this setup, offer two types of Darklight: We'll call them Darklight Red and Blue.

Darklight red has an "upwards" charge time. In otherwards, you have to wait 5 seconds to take the "snapshot" after you hit the button. The standard icon is displayed for anybody looking at you, but it's red. Immediately after the snapshot is taken, that icon fades. So any cloaker not looking at you while you waited to take it, may potentially not know.

Darklight blue is the opposite. It has a 10 second recharge time after the snapshot is taken, but there's no warning for anyone nearby. However, a blue darklight icon does persist until the recharge cycle is complete.

Red: Wait-to-use with warning, but faster overall. Possibly get the jump on a cloaker who dosen't know you're there.

Blue: No wait, and no warning, but longer recharge, and everyone can see when you can't use it (stabby stabby)

Thoughts? I also don't know if it should be a mutually exclusive implant, although I'd tend to say yes, I'd like input on that too.

[Edit: I should be a little clearer about what I mean by a snapshot. any cloaker caught in your FOV has the standard visability of a cloaker when you look at them with darklight. None of that 3rd person nonsense, just what's in your FOV.

However, if, say, that cloaker you caught in your darklight "flash", moved from the corner, you'd still see him, slightly faded in whatever state he was in when you flashed him. In otherwards, just what the implant caught at the time.

These ghosts fade over a period of 5 seconds for DLR, and a period of 10 for DLB]

[Cauldron Borne]

Yeah, and they could cost 20-25 stamina a shot, you could use both, but they would drain your stamina REALLY fast.

[EarlyDawn]

Yeah, gimme a bit and I'll think up the stamina costs per "flash" for each version. I don't think I'd like it crippilingly high, though. It will be hard enough to detect a cloaker if they know how to exploit the weaknesses of the version you're using.

[Edit: I think I'd also lock players down to only one version at a time, too. Otherwise it gets too complex. However, I STILL want input on this because I can see points for either.]

[Baneblade]

The 'skillful' cloakers can be seen by a DL user and never get caught.

It's only when you are in a crowd that it gets difficult.

[mechaman]

stamina drain (negligible due to 'flickering').

you can't just run around with darklight and flicker it without loseing stamia anymore. you will lose 1 stamino each time you flicker it. I know that doesn't sound like a lot but oh well

[Madcow]

you can't just run around with darklight and flicker it without loseing stamia anymore. you will lose 1 stamino each time you flicker it. I know that doesn't sound like a lot but oh well

It doesn't sound like a lot because it isn't. I can't even believe you brought that up, that's the very definition of negligible.

Sobekus, I wouldn't say I'm the best cloaker out there. I would say I'm better than the majority I've seen. First of all, assuming the Dark Light bug doesn't happen (where they are using Dark Light but it's not actually registering on your screen), and that's a huge assumption since I'm getting the bug at least 50% of the time now, your chances of escape are almost exclusively dependent on whether or not there is a crowd AND how close the target is. If you want to say you can cut and run from an MCG user, or Cycler, or Pulsar then I'm calling bullshit on that one. If you have distance, sure. If they're close up you're dead 90% of the time.

[MrCovertMan]

Hell I hate darklight with a passion, but I don't wanna piss off 99.99999999% of the PS coomunity by messing with darklight.
Gimme my old-school instant cloaking, not this fading in and out crap, and i'll be happy.
Let me run with surge on whilst holding a pistol sized item, i'll be happy.

Now this is an idea I've toyed with. An EMP pistol. Like a Beamer that shoots out electronics and deployables. Has a 30m range, unlimited ammo (uses REK batteries), the emp effect lastes half that of an EMP grenade, and it only renders mines useless for the duration, rather then destroying them. Drawbacks? Limited range, announcing your presence, having to switch to another gun to finish off that darklighter who happened to miss you in his sweep, and taking up 1/4 of an infils damn inventory. Hell I'd love something like this.

[EarlyDawn]

I would be in favor of both an EMP emitter, and surging with pistol slot gear out.

[JetRaiden]

when I read the title of this thread I couldve sworn it was a fan fiction.

[Baneblade]

I have thought for awhile that DL should be removed, or an effective counter should be made available.

And the skilled cloaker thing I refer to tends to have a bit of luck involved. But isnt hard, even if there isnt much cover.

[Meursault00]

Funny, I thought the effective counter to Dark Light (and all other implants) was a Jammer Grenade. You have three, they take up little space, easy to use, they would seem like the perfect thing to use.

Plus cloakers are supposed to stay away from big battles. After all, aren't they supposed to be used for special operational purposes? Bringing down a gen, draining a base. Cloakers and Snipers are not all that different, I find. Both will excel where the enemy least expects you. If the enemy does not expect you, their guard will not be up.

As a Sniper (just so you know my position) I'm uneasy when you talk about removing darklight. Let's try removing a useful implant shall we? Like Range Magnifyer. I mean who the heck uses that....Okay, but back on topic. I'm opposed to this for a number of reasons. However I'm to tired and bored to list them at the moment.

The only way I would support this is if the Infiltration suit cost was increased to 3 certification points instead of 2.

And plus, if you remove Dark Light, would the gameplay be any different? The second you hear a boomer click, the second you see a cloaker run, the second you see a cloaker hack a console, or if they take out a weapon and begin firing, the enemy will know you're around and all it would take is one sudden move to give you away, you'd still be dead. Any grunt with half a sense would just spray your general area, and when you take a hit they'll just unload more on you.

As I said before, Snipers and Cloakers aren't that much different. Both are a sort of a combat support class. Though unique in the means for supporting the grunt, they ultimately accomplish the same thing.

[KIAsan]

Look, I run as a cloaker too. I don't like darklight either, but it is a counter to the cloak suit. Without DL, we would be way too powerful. And there is already a counter to DL. Sure it's frustrating for folks to suddenly switch on DL and nail you (when there was no reason for them even knowing your there). But, that's war. Things just don't always go your way.

[Baneblade]

How is a cloaker supposed to take a gen down?

And if the cloaker could take the gen down, why bother being a cloaker? can hold more ordinance in Rexo...

The role of the infil is pretty foggy. You dont need DL to kill infils...at least the bad ones.

Maybe the whole infil suit should be adjusted. 2 points for it as is, and another 3 for an advanced one that cant be seen even by DL, but wont let you use a pistol.

[HawkEye]

i just use DL to find that pesky infil thats harassing people around me or keeps ghost hacking a cc. I also use it when i see an infil run past me or i think i see one.

[Lartnev]

Drawbacks? Limited range, announcing your presence, having to switch to another gun to finish off that darklighter who happened to miss you in his sweep, and taking up 1/4 of an infils damn inventory. Hell I'd love something like this.

*cough* Jammer Grenade *cough*

I thought about the "darklight flash" idea yesterday but rejected it because the fact is that once they know where you are, they'll either spam the area or you'll run, exposing yourself.

One thing I sorta agreed with from an earlier discussion on this, would be to remove the ominous glow effect when you pick up something cloaked, replacing it with something far subtle. I suppose reducing the range could probably help too.

[Indecisive]

when you switch on cloak, it should alter your vision more dramaticly.

When it is on, you see a white plain and thats it. No walls, no floors. Think matrix, but, you can see cloakers as if they are uncloaked.

That and a lock of a few seconds on or off.

[Madcow]

As a Sniper (just so you know my position) I'm uneasy when you talk about removing darklight. Let's try removing a useful implant shall we? Like Range Magnifyer. I mean who the heck uses that....Okay, but back on topic. I'm opposed to this for a number of reasons. However I'm to tired and bored to list them at the moment.

One person mentioned removal, my entire post is about changing but not removing Dark Light. As a sniper I would certainly welcome hearing why you don't think my modification ideas have validity. The one I would see hurting snipers the most is removing DL ability while in 3rd person, but that's also the one I would fight the hardest for as it makes absolutely no sense for Dark Light to work that way.

As far as pissing off Planetside players, I'm glad the Devs didn't end up taking that easy route when we were all having issues about Surge. If it improves the game, players will eventually embrace it regardless of how much they bitch and moan on the front end. Dark Light is a useful implant now, and I haven't suggested stopping it from being useful. I have suggested a true 'cost' to using this implant which people can use carte blanche at the moment, to the detriment of actual skill in the game. If I sneak into a courtyard and somebody catches my movement and turns on Dark Light and blasts me, I screwed up and deserve to eat Sweeper. If I sneak into a courtyard and nobody suspects a thing but some random jackass flickers Dark Light because that's what he does as he runs around, that pisses me off. The game should be rewarding skill, not rewarding people for training themselves like monkeys to flicker an implant.

Lastly, no, the infiltration suit is not strictly for spec-ops. Good lord is that assumption annoying. I can only hope you squad up with a good infil some day and see exactly what they're capable of in different situations.

Edit: In case it's unclear, only the first paragraph is in response to the quoted portion. I don't want another case where people are defending themselves against a statement not aimed at them ;)

[Meursault00]

Oh so that's what you meant, thanks for the clarification. On the 3rd person thing, it's a toss of the coin for me. I never use Dark Light in third person anyways, I find it much quicker just to do a quick sweep of a room or of an area.

[Madcow]

Oh so that's what you meant, thanks for the clarification. On the 3rd person thing, it's a toss of the coin for me. I never use Dark Light in third person anyways, I find it much quicker just to do a quick sweep of a room or of an area.

You, sir, are the rare exception. As somebody who regularly sticks a knife in people's backs, I assure you that the majority of snipers pop into 3rd person during a reload and flicker Dark Light. It is tough to get the timing down to jump in there before they check again. I have far less problem with the snipers that turn on dark light and spin a quick 360, that at least makes sense.

[MrCovertMan]

*cough* Jammer Grenade *cough*

The jammer grenade is useful, but what better way to announce your presence then having a group of baddies get jammed with nobody visible enemies in sight. This usually results in the spamming of plasma nades until they see some1 glow and die.
Also just getting into a CE defended base announces your presence when u have to clear that mine at the door. People can hear the grenade, and the explosion that ensues.
There is also a bug with the jammer nade that it won't disable anything it hits, so sometimes one must use all 3 grenades of a clip to down a single mine.
Frankly we cloakers need a more silent means of disabling electronics

[Kasion]

I do not think that there is much that needs to be change for Dark Light, other than than the fact about the 3rd person view. That is a foul.

IMHO, they should remove the 3rd person view period from the game. I mean, isn't this game advertised as a Massively Multiperson Online First Person Shooter Game? The 3rd person view detracts a lot from the game, as I see it.

By biggest gripe about being a cloaker, is not DL, but the fact that I get TKed 85% of the time, and always get the, "I am sorry... Did not see you there," tell from the individual that shot trough me to get their kill(s).

Overall, DL is not that far off from what it should be. Correct the 3rd person view snafu, and an increase in the stamina drain should bring it back in line with the other implants.

[JetRaiden]

cloaking is like poker, takes alot of skill and alot of luck. I was probably cloaking for over a year by the time I stopped, and when I did getting owned by RExos with HA was no different.

[Madcow]

Overall, DL is not that far off from what it should be. Correct the 3rd person view snafu, and an increase in the stamina drain should bring it back in line with the other implants.

The problem with any amount of stamina drain is that it becomes negligible when people flicker the implant. That is what is encouraging people to use it in random situations, and that is something I would like to see addressed. I personally see it as discouraging skillful gameplay, and I fail to see why that's something you would want promoted in your game.

Also, another item I just thought of about Dark Light is I would like to see it drain stamina while stationary. It wouldn't have to be a fast drain, but something that players would have to pay attention to. Allowing people to protect base assets like the CC or gen and insure a 0% chance of cloaker interruption just seems overwhelming. Even if you changed it to where 2 guys together could watch a CC if they alternated Dark Light every minute or so would be a nice improvement, and would force some coordination.

[Lartnev]

The jammer grenade is useful.....
Frankly we cloakers need a more silent means of disabling electronics

But according to you the EMP gun would announce your presence as well?

And yes, as a sniper I used to use darklight in 3rd person between shots if I wasn't tracking a target. I say used to because now I have audio amp instead of darklight on that character :D

By biggest gripe about being a cloaker, is not DL, but the fact that I get TKed 85% of the time, and always get the, "I am sorry... Did not see you there," tell from the individual that shot trough me to get their kill(s).

Had that happen to me, from both sides. Not really a lot you can do about that unless the devs implement a sorta outline glow, or just a green glow to help you spot there's a friendly infiltrator somewhere.

[Madcow]

But according to you the EMP gun would announce your presence as well?

And yes, as a sniper I used to use darklight in 3rd person between shots if I wasn't tracking a target. I say used to because now I have audio amp instead of darklight on that character :D



Had that happen to me, from both sides. Not really a lot you can do about that unless the devs implement a sorta outline glow, or just a green glow to help you spot there's a friendly infiltrator somewhere.

You use audio amp? Sensor Shield pwns j00! Heh, my only Sensor Shield problem is with that and Melee Boost I can only take down 2 guys before I have to recharge my stamina. I spent one night running up a hill to a snipe point, killing two guys and running down to a safe hiding spot to recharge during base defense. 13 trips, 26 knifed snipers with no deaths when they finally broke into the base and ended my fun.

As for TKs, I've learned to live with them although some of them are beyond infuriating. Getting run over by friendlies in the middle of nowhere, getting shot by people who get 'spooked' by the infil movement and don't notice the green name. It's a running joke with my friend and I though. One night my first 10 deaths were all by friendly hands. The last one to truly piss me off was standing outside an interlink surrounded by spits, crouching and recharging stamina with Sensor Shield on. A ScatMAX fires at somebody nowhere near me from a huge distance, and somehow some pellets hit me. Damage taken, Sensor Shield down, ripped to shreds by spits before I could blink. Heck, that one didn't even show up as a TK even though it was all him.

[Kam]

I will admit that darklight is abused a lot. I drive a lightning, and when we are in the process of capturing the innards of a base I drive around the CY with DL on killing the cloakers. I never have used DL on foot because cloakers are too easy to see and hear when they are around you. I think it needs to be nerfed, but it won't happen this year so I'm not going to worry about it.

[Kasion]

The problem with any amount of stamina drain is that it becomes negligible when people flicker the implant. That is what is encouraging people to use it in random situations, and that is something I would like to see addressed. I personally see it as discouraging skillful gameplay, and I fail to see why that's something you would want promoted in your game.

What I meant by the increase in the stamina drain is that everytime that it is activated it drains 10 points of stamina, like when you jump, or even a larger amount, possibly 20 points per activation and a 2 point per tick while moving. This would be enough to get players to limit their flickering of the implant, but still make it viable when hunting for a known cloaker.

Also, another item I just thought of about Dark Light is I would like to see it drain stamina while stationary. It wouldn't have to be a fast drain, but something that players would have to pay attention to. Allowing people to protect base assets like the CC or gen and insure a 0% chance of cloaker interruption just seems overwhelming. Even if you changed it to where 2 guys together could watch a CC if they alternated Dark Light every minute or so would be a nice improvement, and would force some coordination.


I like that idea, maybe something along the lines of when you have enhanced hearing and darklight both on while stationary. Just make it drain at that speed when you have DL on only.

[Papagiorgio]

<3 Darklight

[Madcow]

<3 Darklight

Thanks for the helpful input?

[MrCovertMan]

But according to you the EMP gun would announce your presence as well?
Yes but would a single small blast of emp that doesn't set off mines be more noticeable then an emp explosion that makes mines detonate and whose effect can be heard, and see through walls that are close to the detonation area?

[Madcow]

Yes but would a single small blast of emp that doesn't set off mines be more noticeable then an emp explosion that makes mines detonate and whose effect can be heard, and see through walls that are close to the detonation area?

I'd personally rather some sort of 'minesweeper'. Completely silent, destroyed by using it on a single mine and taking up a full slot just like an ACE. Negotiating mine fields is a part of the game, get a few CEs that know what the hell they're doing at a base and it can be nigh impossible to make it into a doorway silently though. Shooting or boomering or jamming either takes too much time or is too loud or both. The only remotely stealthy option I've been able to come up with is placing another mine next to the enemy mine and waiting for somebody to come through the door and set mine off, thus destroying the one I was trying to eliminate in the first place. As long as I'm wasting that inventory space, I'd like an option to get in without arousing suspicion.

[Onizuka-GTO]

I personally see no problem with Darklight being able to "flicker" , perhaps a slight stamina penalty to limit the time it can be used.

Frankly, "flicking" the Darklight on, periodically, is not "skillless" as one soldier says to a recruit: "Good habits keep you alive".
Darklight has a limited range, perhaps limiting it to a more closer radius, and disable 3rd person view is sufficient.

I mean if you are a cloaker and is killed sneaking too close to a soldier who has the good habit as a sentry to turn on her Darklight periodically and have a good look around, you deserve to die.
For assuming that you are so good, and that the trooper is so stupid to not have a good habit.

[Baneblade]

That makes sense.

But making DL something you equip, sorta like Infrared goggles or nightvision, makes more sense to me.

An implant to counter a cert seems like a lazy way to do it, afaik there is no certs that counter an implant =/

[Cauldron Borne]

I want the range shortened, the stamina drain SLIGHTLY inceased, and a mandetory time period that you must keep the DLV on, like say....5 seconds... a lot can happen to you in five seconds on the battle field.

About these EMP guns: could I sneak up behind someone and use it to turn off their DLV?

Just one more coment about the Slient Run: has anyone noticed that if you use a rek around a Spit w/ SR on, the spit still spots you?

[Lartnev]

Just one more coment about the Slient Run: has anyone noticed that if you use a rek around a Spit w/ SR on, the spit still spots you?

I believe that's intentional.

[Sputty]

You do realise Dark Light totally fogs out all things after a certain point, and if you got close enough to see the AMS you could probably find it without DL anyway

[Sputty]

That makes sense.

But making DL something you equip, sorta like Infrared goggles or nightvision, makes more sense to me.

An implant to counter a cert seems like a lazy way to do it, afaik there is no certs that counter an implant =/
Indeed, everyone gets the perfect anti implant weapon for free
EMP nades

[Madcow]

I want the range shortened, the stamina drain SLIGHTLY inceased, and a mandetory time period that you must keep the DLV on, like say....5 seconds... a lot can happen to you in five seconds on the battle field.

About these EMP guns: could I sneak up behind someone and use it to turn off their DLV?

Just one more coment about the Slient Run: has anyone noticed that if you use a rek around a Spit w/ SR on, the spit still spots you?

Sensor Shield is supposed to go down when you use a support item (MedApp, REK, BANK). It works as they intended. ACEs are buggy as hell, though. You can place the ACE without impacting Sensor Shield, so it feels like you're safe. Then if whatever you placed kills somebody (mine or spitfire) your Sensor Shield goes down and if you're in an interlink you're probably screwed. I haven't found the same issue with a boomer, but I rarely use a boomer in the field so I haven't experimented that much.

Oni- Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say there's an implant, it doesn't take much stamina, has no real restrictions to it, but the implant has a 50% chance of instantly killing anybody wearing Rexo who is standing within 10 feet of you? If I ran around flickering that implant, would it just be a good habit or would it be weak? Dark Light is abused, as somebody has already mentioned in the thread. It isn't used if you suspect a cloaker around, I've been Dark Lighted in the middle of absolutely nowhere because people flicker it on no matter the situation. It is the definition of skill-less to run around flickering that implant.

[Bloodstone]

Oni- Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say there's an implant, it doesn't take much stamina, has no real restrictions to it, but the implant has a 50% chance of instantly killing anybody wearing Rexo who is standing within 10 feet of you? If I ran around flickering that implant, would it just be a good habit or would it be weak? Dark Light is abused, as somebody has already mentioned in the thread. It isn't used if you suspect a cloaker around, I've been Dark Lighted in the middle of absolutely nowhere because people flicker it on no matter the situation. It is the definition of skill-less to run around flickering that implant.

Yes let's call it an Infilrator suit.

I never use 3rd person view so when I use darklight it is normally when guarding something, Checking for cloakers in CC/Spawns etc, or have noticed or been attacked by a cloaker. Even then if a cloaker has done his job right I will win only 1in4 or 1in3 times

If you lived in a combat zone where people could be invisible anywhere at any time and you had an implant to let you see them, it is only common sense that you would use it occasionly to check your immediate area for cloaked enemies. I have lost count of the times when I have been killed in the middle of no where by a cloaker. It has to work both ways.

I do agree however that when on foot 3rd person view should be removed completely even if DL is not on.

DL should have an increased stamina drain so you could not have it on indefinatly when still and should not be available while in vehicles.

[Madcow]

Yes let's call it an Infilrator suit.

Riiiiiight. Those armorless bastards and all of their high powered weaponry must be stopped! :rolleyes:

I never use 3rd person view so when I use darklight it is normally when guarding something, Checking for cloakers in CC/Spawns etc, or have noticed or been attacked by a cloaker. Even then if a cloaker has done his job right I will win only 1in4 or 1in3 times

I'm sorry, but if those are your odds after finding out a cloaker is there then I think the problem goes a bit beyond the usefulness of the implant.

If you lived in a combat zone where people could be invisible anywhere at any time and you had an implant to let you see them, it is only common sense that you would use it occasionly to check your immediate area for cloaked enemies. I have lost count of the times when I have been killed in the middle of no where by a cloaker. It has to work both ways.

It does work both ways. Which is why I'm not suggesting removal of the implant, but am suggesting consequences to use of the implant. And restrictions. The devs have talked about making Dark Light more of a 'cat and mouse' situation which is exactly what I'm suggesting. If you're going to use Dark Light, you should have to commit to it at the cost of viewing other things. That seems to be the original intent, which 'flickering' eliminated easily.

I do agree however that when on foot 3rd person view should be removed completely even if DL is not on.

Eh, that doesn't bother me much either way. Dark Light in 3rd person is the one that really bugs me.

DL should have an increased stamina drain so you could not have it on indefinatly when still and should not be available while in vehicles.

Yay, we agree on a portion!

[Dharkbayne]

Or, it doesn't drain stamina, but takes out 25 every time you turn it on, and stays on for 15 seconds. Which is WAY more than enough to kill a cloaker. With a beamer. On AP mode. At 250 meters.

[KeviN]

Lastly, no, the infiltration suit is not strictly for spec-ops. Good lord is that assumption annoying. I can only hope you squad up with a good infil some day and see exactly what they're capable of in different situations.

Skipped over two pages to quote this, but oh well.

I agree with you 100% on this. Players that make this assumption have clearly never stepped into an infil suit, except for the fisrt time BEP. I forget the exact numbers, but at close range the NC Scatter Pistol can drop an agile in little over a second. If that's not meant for combat, I don't know what is.

[Doppler]

People seem to forget that the prevalence of darklight was in response to the prevalence and tactical advantage of cloakers. Is it cheap, yes, should cloakers have a counter, maybe sensor blocker and being completely still, most likely, but as it stands darklight is designed to protect troops from cloakers, period. Maybe as a prestige medal you could make cloakers partialy immune to darklight, i dunno.

[Cauldron Borne]

We all agree that DLV was created to counter the cloaker, doppler. Thank you for restating half of this conversation....

What we're saying is that, in it's current state, DLV is doing it's job without any negative consequences, which we think sucks. DLV SHOULD spot cloakers. Yes. Duh. Move on.

NOW: To RESTATE the topic: DLV should have SOME SORT of negative consequence to make activating it an important choice with consequences in either way:
EXAMPLE: I think i saw something, lemme flicker dlv..oh there is the cloaker! BLAM! *turn off DLV* (Presant state)
I think I saw something... maybe it was nothing..i don't want to RISK turning on DLV because then i may get nailed in this fire fight, but then there might be a cloaker there, so i could be letting him get through... (what we WANT to happen...)

I still want a faster drain, shorter range, and mandetory 5 second activation minimum....

[Doppler]

Why? No other implant has such a downside, why should darklight.

[Lartnev]

Because Darklight is different to all other implants :p

[Madcow]

Why? No other implant has such a downside, why should darklight.

Because it is an implant designed specifically to allow you access to armorless targets with weak weapons. Because the downside (limited visibility) was built into the implant to begin with, but has been negated by the flickering of the player base. Because Dark Light as it currently exists is too good, I'm tired of seeing postings referring to it as the 'no-brainer' implant. Because the upside is too great. Even Personal Shield and Second Wind have much more downside when you get down to it, and those are very valuable implants.

[ZAYZAY]

This was idea was posted somewhere before but i think its a real good idea. They can have Darklight in tunnel vision. Like a little biggeth then ur CoF and that way you would have to do an a sweep in order to spot the cloacker. :) U could also dodge his veiw that way.

[Shryn]

You could just have the jammer grenade stifle the darklight implant too. You could lob a jammer and book out, or circle around.

I don't use darklight myself, never have, simply because there's other implants I like and never had a slot I felt was worth using on darklight (though I didn't know they saw an ams!) Sucks to get knifed, but I kill more stealthers than kill me in my rexo, no doubt.
Still, I wouldn't put limits on darklight (though the 3d effect is whacked) I think it would be better to have ways of fighting it. (Like letting the jammer 'nade effect it.)

[Cauldron Borne]

The jammer DOES effect DLV...but the thing is, an Infl already has limited space, and often cannot spare that 3X3 block for a 2x2 jammer. I'd use them if I had a grenade slot so I could pull it out faster, but the thing is, those jammers take so long to pull out if you don't already have it out, that yer already dead. That and the flash bang of the jammer only alearts others to your presance.

[Madcow]

You want to see something really funny, Jammer a Lasher user. Unless you tossed from a pretty good distance you'll be eating dirt in moments. The Jammer is a very flawed counter measure to Dark Light.

[Queensidecastle]

I know I am waaaay late to this thread (sue me I just started back playing again) but I wanted to pipe in. While I agree with everything Madcow has said, nevertheless, Darklight causes me no trouble whatsoever when I am playing my cloaker. Partly this is because of my style of play and partly it is precisely why my style developed the way it has. I am a pure killer Infil. I will hack (and very often do) if I see an opportunity, but sneaking into bases to and towers to hack is not what I am about. It is about assassination and sabateuring. I think it would be great to apply myself to the true intended role of a cloaker, but sadly the game mechanics as Madcow has described them make this a lesser option.

You might agree with me when I say that Sony has been EXTREMELY unfriendly to cloaking in this game since launch and it appears only just recently addressed the cloaking/radar issue (THANK GOD sheesh) with sensor shield. Because of this I find it very unlikely they would make infiltrators even harder to kill, even when everything you said makes total sense. Getting killed by an infiltrator psycologically causes more anger than anything in the game (even snipers) It doesnt matter how open the individual was, it doesnt matter how incredibly the odds are stacked against cloakers, because when a person gets killed by something they cant see, it enrages them and they cry for nerfs. I killed a fresh MAX last night with a spiker and got a hate tell. Clearly this person felt that they should not be vulnerable to cloakers in a MAX suit. The only problem with that logic is the "you snooze, you lose" concept. It is not that it is unbalanced, or that there isnt a proper counter for that technique, rather people cant deal with players who use unorthodox strategies and instead cry for nerfs.

I wager that Sony would like to fix the cloaking bubble/DL problem and would/will when a solution becomes available, but I cant really see them tone down Darklight w/out also nerfing Infiltrators in some way :(

[Madcow]

What's weird is I spend more time assassinating than anything else also. Don't get me wrong, I have advanced hack and will spend time hunting for an AMS to jack or stealing towers out from under people, but I do those things mostly because I'm not a kill whore and I like a distraction on occasion. However, my method of killing definitely differs from yours. I spend the vast majority of my time with nothing in my hands but a knife, the rest using ACEs (often to set somebody up for a stabbing). Basically, because of my play style choice I have to be close to others. I don't have CC, so I'm no expert on the Spiker but I believe that's pretty much the only gun that you can use long distance and actually do legit damage with (maybe the Repeater since the MA buff, not sure). So I don't think I have much choice in how close I am to people, whereas you focus on the Spiker if I remember correctly. It's definitely a nice advantage, but not one available to all of us.
You're right in Sensor Shield making a big difference. That's already become the implant I can't believe I was playing without previously. I still think that Dark Light needs some sort of fix without nerfing the cloakers though. Smoke posted a long time ago about wanting to increase the 'cat and mouse' portion of Dark Light, I don't mind being the mouse but I do want them to fix it so that I'm not a 3 legged mouse.

[Queensidecastle]

I have melee booster as one of my implants. When I cant get a Spiker due to only being able to spawn at AMSs, I go knife hunting ;) The Repeater seemed kinda crappy to me when I tried it yesterday but I could get some kills with it. I think it is a better use of inventory space to just go with the knife/melee booster + ACE than the Repeater now

[Madcow]

I always go knife+melee booster and ACEs. However, I do loot Beamers and Repeaters on occasion and use them against their respective armies. I find I can get 3-4 kills using their weapons against them before somebody looks up. People ignore familiar sounds. I love using Enhanced Targetting and dropping people with 2-3 Beamer shots as they duck behind rocks to heal themselves. As much as the VS bitch about their pistol, it's very fulfilling to kill them with it.

[Cauldron Borne]

I use AMP to rather good effect, and the MAG pistol is a nice weapon, imo.

I had melle booster for a while, but never used it too much. it was good while i had it, but i went on to newer things (sniping).

[Madcow]

Mag is a great pistol, but I'd rather carry ACEs than a gun and ammo. Plus, if I'm close enough to use the Mag it's faster to just bust out the knife and stab them twice. Personally, I hate the AMP. It's effective but the COF bloom and distinctive noise are just a bad combo for me.

[SandTrout]

I'm back.... Reactivated accout recently (couldn't fend off my adiction to infiltrating), and I find that virtualy nothing has changed for cloakers, except we can no longer 1-shot maxes with mines.

To those who claim Stealthers would be highly overpowered if DL were removed, and I am not endorseing that particular move, there are already fringe counters to cloaking such as plasma nades and HA spam.

DL as it stands is excessive in its range and usefulness. It should not be able to spot a cloaker at a hundred meters with for just 1 stamina point. A reduction in range, increase in cost, and 5-second minumum use would put Darklight where it's supposed to be, for hunting or clearing a specific area.

To add to cloaker problems, adv targeting doesnt work indoors any more, so I dont get enemies names above their head, let alone the Darklight symbol.

[Madcow]

To add to cloaker problems, adv targeting doesnt work indoors any more, so I dont get enemies names above their head, let alone the Darklight symbol.

Welcome back. Enhanced targetting works indoors as well as it works outdoors, which is to say not very well. Ground troops show up about 50% of the time (MAX or footsoldier). I don't have the issue with vehicles. It seems to be getting progressively worse, too. Thus far no dev has made official mention of it that I've seen, even though it's been mentioned multiple times on the forums.

[Lartnev]

Sometimes advanced targetting doesn't work after using darklight, but I haven't tried it with any consistancy to /bug it.

[Madcow]

I can guarantee this is completely independent of Dark Light, which I don't even have. I used to /bug it when it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, this was months and months ago.

[SandTrout]

I've been /buging it as well. I don't use DL either, so that is not causeing the bug.

I refuse to let this thread die.

[Cauldron Borne]

Noticed it's happening to me, too. and Audio Amp doesn't work...

The two things that I use instead of Dark Light...are broken.....

[Lartnev]

Audio Amp works for me, sure they weren't using sensor shield?

[Madcow]

I'm pretty sure audio amp works, although I don't have it. I did use it against a grunt the other night though, and I knew he had it. Placed a boomer turned off sensor shield and ran down the stairs. He came a running with his MCG, I'll bet he was drooling. It was such a pathetic trap, I hadn't even tried to hide the boomer and it still worked.

[Lartnev]

:lol: nice one :thumbsup:

[Cauldron Borne]

mebbe the radius is just too small to be effective, then...