Infantry BUFF-O-RAMMA

[oddfish]

Okay, here we go:

Infantry controls are too basic. Toooooo basic.
I'll be honest, I know that coding a whole bunch of new Infantry abilities would be a bitch, but I don't think any of us would dislike the introduction of a few new Infantry abilities, such as:

The Prone Position: This would be very useful, in my humble opinion.
Diving to Prone: A great maneuver, especially when going for cover.
Leaning: The ability to lean would be nice. Showing the enemy as little of your body as possible is always a plus.
Halo 2 Style Vehicle Hijack: This is a pipe dream if there ever was one, but I think the ability to hop on vehicles and go to town would make for a lot more entertaining battles. It sure does in H2.
Fire-Team Buffs: When moving in tight groups of three and up, you get slight buffs to health and speed and reload rate. The bigger the group the bigger the buff up to 8 or 9 players. This, of course, would encourage more teamwork AND would buff individual players a bit.

I just think with the addition of the BFR's and what not, it would probably be a good idea to add some new stuff to the infantry of PlanetSide.. that may just be me. But, that's what I have to say.

[Lartnev]

Diving to prone could be a difficult one, Day of Defeat used to have problems with it being used as an offensive tactic (dive at someone's feet while firing) rather than a defensive one (they implemented weapon restriction and small recover period).

Vehicle Hijacking is a tough one, at the very least I think you'd need to hack it (without advanced hacking).

Fire-Team Buffs: Worked very well for a small Half-Life mod called Frontline Force. Would help the zerg no end however.

Prone: well.... we'll see. They added mechs after all.

Leaning: Would be handy. Together with third person view it'd be a bit scary.

[MrPaul]

Fire-Team Buffs: Worked very well for a small Half-Life mod called Frontline Force. Would help the zerg no end however.

The easy (haha) solution to this I suppose would be to have benefits from 3 - 10 players. No additional benefits for 10-20 and minus benefits for 40+ players in a small area.

[Lartnev]

Yeah, that sounds like a plan :D

How about, squads get it if in close proximity, and the levels would be according to the number of people in your squad.

[ChewyLSB]

I had ideas like this awhile back, where a Squad Leader of a certain CR would give bonuses to everyone within a certain radius of him, but it was dismissed for being far too giving. I'm going to see if I can find the thread...

Found it.

CR0: Nothing
CR1:
- 4 Waypoints
- Ability to draw on maps
CR2:
- Reveal Friendlies
- Reveal Enemies
- All support activies are made better by 25% for everyone in the squad (Medic's would heal 12 instead of 10, engies would repair vehicles 40 instead of 32, hacking takes 25% more quickly than usual, etc.)
CR3:
- All support activies are made better by 50% for everyone in the squad
- Everyone in the squad gets a health bonus of 5.
- MAX's in the squad get 15% more armor
- Vehicle timers are cut by 30 seconds for everyone in the squad
- Infiltrators in your squad are now invisible while crouching and moving
CR4:
- Everyone in the squad gets a health bonus of 25
- Vehicle timers are cut by 60 seconds for everyone in the squad
- Infiltrators in your squad are now invisible while moving at all
- MAX's get 50% more health
- Ability to designate a base on the continent as the primary target. All of the CR4's/CR5's get to vote which base is primary on defense and offense, as long as they are on that continent. The base with the most votes is highlighted as primary, and the second base is highlighted as secondary.
- Continental broadcast. Can only use continental broadcast to the continent the commander is on
CR5:
- Everyone in the squad gets a health bonus of 50
- Vehicle timers are cut in half
- Infiltrators are now immune to darklight in your squad
- MAX's armor is now doubled
- Votes on primary base are counted as 1.5 votes
- Can now vote on primary continent. Same function as primary base.
- Global Broadcast

Now, here's the kicker. Getting command ranks now requires certification points! CR1 and CR2 together cost 1 cert point, and CR3 and CR4 cost 1 cert point together. You can get either seperately, but the cost is the same. So first, you must "qualify" for the command ranks by leading squads, then you go to a cert point and decide you want to learn it. CR5 by itself costs 1 cert point.

This makes it so that only the people who want to lead will get the CR.

[internetn]

but it was dismissed for being far too giving.

It is pretty giving, IE. The cloakers being immune to darklight, but I don't think that the idea should be dismissed

Something like this has to happen, I mean for God's sake GIVE US PRONE!!11!1

[Lartnev]

Yeah that's very giving considering many people have CR5. (I guess that'd cancel it out?)

[ChewyLSB]

Well, Lart, here's the way I looked at it. Remember, if this system were adopted, CR5 would require three cert points. The question is, how many people would be willing to keep CR5 without the Orbital Strike? This new system would only give CR5 to players who actually want to lead, and the people who are a CR5 just for the commando abilities won't keep CR5.

[martyr]

i think oddfish is on the right track with the improvements to infantry - i absolutely agree that improvements are needed to the most basic levels of the game to keep things running nicely.

[Warborn]

The CR5 squad benefits would make the game incredibly shitty for anyone who likes to solo. You may say "WELL THEN GET IN A SQUAD MISTER", but not everyone wants to squad, especially if they're new and still learning the ropes. New people who run into MAXs they have no hope of beating or infiltrators killing them with DL being useless will probably make their stay in PS very short. And then PS will go the way of WW2OL, with the game being really difficult to get into because new people still learning the ropes and not yet big into the organization thing are getting fucked left right and center and having a hell of a bad time.

Some kind of CR1 - 5 buff might be good, but the stuff listed there is way too extreme. A CR5 squad vs a CR0 squad would be a hilarious massacre.

Oh, and re: the OP, some of it might be good. Would have to see how it plays to give a real opinion though.

[internetn]

But please people agree... We need prone!

[Warborn]

But please people agree... We need prone!

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure how useful the ability to lay on the ground would be. It wouldn't be like the movies where shots will fly all around you and none will hit, and it's not going to make a difference like it does in Day of Defeat where first person to fire almost always wins. The game was never designed for prone stuff, and as such I really doubt there's any cover you can go prone behind that won't already mostly/totally conceal you while crouching.

Further, as mentioned, the game isn't one-shot kills. In mid-range MA fights, the best strategy is to move, crouch, fire, move, crouch, fire, and so on. Moving is always better than staying still, and being prone wouldn't make you harder to hit than a moving target. In addition, unless you're a low BR individual, being able to quickly get to cover and heal/repair yourself can keep you going for quite a while in fights. Hell, I don't recall the last time I actually died to infantry weapons. It's always something like a reaver or tank which does me in, and that's because I know when to get my head down and heal up. Unless you can instantly stand up after being prone (which would be weird) I don't think I'd want to ever give up my mobility to simply present a smaller target.

About the only use I can think of for prone is when sniping at extreme ranges. If prone, you'd be such a small target that any counter-sniper's COF on a bolt driver would be larger than your profile. Thus they'd have a significant chance to miss. And although this is a use for prone, I don't think I'd want to see snipers get this ability.

But as I said earlier, I'd need to see how it plays out first. I'm just assuming the worst right now. It might actually be alright. At first glance, however, I do not agree that we need a prone function.

[oddfish]

prone would make your shots extremely accurate. also, there would be an option called: QUICK RISE where you'd use half of your stamina to quickly rise from prone to a standing, fighting position. this way, if a tank was about to run you over you could hop up quickly and prone-dive out of the way. Prone dive would use about a quarter of your stamina as well, so you wouldn't be able to just hop and dive, hop and dive, hop and dive. And, you wouldn't be able to fire during the dive, and immediately after the dive your shots would be wild and your COF would be HUGE. this way any kill you got like that would be purely on luck and would also be RARE.

leaning would be unattainable in 3rd person mode to make it reasonable. also, i came up with something else..

Banners:
Empire Specific but with common pool abilities.

You can start getting banners once you reach BR2 and the banners would be as follows.

Banners would be "Y" shaped flags with the Empire colors and Outfit symbol on them. The banners would be carried on the back of a Squad leader only, no one else in the squad can have them, so if the squad leader is only CR1, the squad can't have a banner.

The banner upgrades are:
Weapon reload is faster for 3-12 infantry in the immediate area. Also, Inftantry run somewhat faster and their cone of fire is reduced a degree. On top of that, hackers hack faster and medics heal quicker. But only the 3-12 in the immediate area.

The trade offs are: The Squad leader can only carry one full sized weapon while in possession of the banner. Agile armor suffers particularly from this but the advantages of the banner are so much that it would be worth giving up a MA weapon for a banner. Also, the banner can be held in the infantryman's hands and used as a weapon. Like the knives, the banners could be used to melee kill people. Only CR2 or greater can handle the banners, though, soooo. Also, if a unit dies and drops a banner then it can be taken from his pack just like any other weapon but can only be implemented by the CR2 or greater Squad leader. So, if a squad leader dies he can relenquish command to the next guy in line (CR2 or greater) and that infantryman can remove the banner from the pack and use it. Teamwork teamwork teamwork. The idea is to keep the commander alive while doing your job. Teamwork. Less zerg, more teams. And, i think the idea of nerfing infantry that bunch together in groups of 40 is a good idea. It'd be called battle confusion and would result in reductions in individual troop effectiveness. This would be to help kill that stupid zerging shit.

[Polgara]

At least snipers should get prone, it is very difficult for a sniper to stay hidden which is what he has to do most of the time, its much harder to see a person prone in the grass than it would be if they were just kneeling down.

[Baneblade]

Prone should be something you get with the sniper merit.

As for those CR buffs, jebus freaking kriest.

Maybe instead of health that should be stamina...though its basically the same thing for NC...

[Warborn]

At least snipers should get prone, it is very difficult for a sniper to stay hidden which is what he has to do most of the time, its much harder to see a person prone in the grass than it would be if they were just kneeling down.

You fire the most obvious looking projectile in the game (big orange streak) with an incredibly distinct sound. A sniper will never be able to stay hidden in this game because the second you fire your gun you are exposing your location. And grass isn't an issue. Of the handful of people who have more than Low flora levels, the distance the flora shows up at is pretty short. Sniper range stuff would show a ground devoid of vegetative cover.

So prone would have nothing to do with cover. Any competent sniper already uses the tips of hills and other elevations to mask themselves as much as possible as it is, so I don't think there'd be much at all to benefit snipers here.

[KIAsan]

The CR5 squad benefits would make the game incredibly shitty for anyone who likes to solo. You may say "WELL THEN GET IN A SQUAD MISTER", but not everyone wants to squad, especially if they're new and still learning the ropes. New people who run into MAXs they have no hope of beating or infiltrators killing them with DL being useless will probably make their stay in PS very short. And then PS will go the way of WW2OL, with the game being really difficult to get into because new people still learning the ropes and not yet big into the organization thing are getting fucked left right and center and having a hell of a bad time.


My argument against advanced merits. But hell, PS will still live, since they need it as a test platform even after release in Asia.

[Warborn]

My argument against advanced merits. But hell, PS will still live, since they need it as a test platform even after release in Asia.

I've yet to hear anything credible to suggest merits will do more than simply give access to new gear or vehicles. Indeed, Samhayne even said that the stuff you unlock will not be meant to make other weapons obsolete. So (to use his example) if you unlock some kind of MCG variant, the MCG variant won't be just a MCG which does more damage or has a better fire arc, as that'll make the default MCG obsolete. Rather, the variant would have a tigher cone of fire, but slower fire rate, or vice versa, making it simply a different take on the MCG, and something that, in some cases, would be inferior to the base MCG.

It's very much like how the BFR variants were designed. Neither Adv. BFR was meant to make the standard one obsolete. The flights were horribly imbalanced so they did that anyway, but next patch the flights will exemplify the advanced merit benefits as I understand them. Flights, from the look of it, will absolutely not make the gunners useless, even though flights will be gained from the Adv. BFR merit. It'll just be more options available to make your gameplay more deep and rewarding.

[Firefly]

Banners:
Empire Specific but with common pool abilities.

You can start getting banners once you reach BR2 and the banners would be as follows.

Banners would be "Y" shaped flags with the Empire colors and Outfit symbol on them. The banners would be carried on the back of a Squad leader only, no one else in the squad can have them, so if the squad leader is only CR1, the squad can't have a banner.

The banner upgrades are:
Weapon reload is faster for 3-12 infantry in the immediate area. Also, Inftantry run somewhat faster and their cone of fire is reduced a degree. On top of that, hackers hack faster and medics heal quicker. But only the 3-12 in the immediate area.

The trade offs are: The Squad leader can only carry one full sized weapon while in possession of the banner. Agile armor suffers particularly from this but the advantages of the banner are so much that it would be worth giving up a MA weapon for a banner. Also, the banner can be held in the infantryman's hands and used as a weapon. Like the knives, the banners could be used to melee kill people. Only CR2 or greater can handle the banners, though, soooo. Also, if a unit dies and drops a banner then it can be taken from his pack just like any other weapon but can only be implemented by the CR2 or greater Squad leader. So, if a squad leader dies he can relenquish command to the next guy in line (CR2 or greater) and that infantryman can remove the banner from the pack and use it. Teamwork teamwork teamwork. The idea is to keep the commander alive while doing your job. Teamwork. Less zerg, more teams. And, i think the idea of nerfing infantry that bunch together in groups of 40 is a good idea. It'd be called battle confusion and would result in reductions in individual troop effectiveness. This would be to help kill that stupid zerging shit.
This sounds like some RPG element. Like a D&D game.

"The Banner of Korgoroth is planted! Rally to me! DM, everyone in a 30-ft radius gets plus-two to their morale."

[Hercules]

i would also like if you could have a cone of fire in the 3rd person view. :D

[Firegod1a]

want want want, but i do think prone is a good idea
and so is the banenrs, the Buffs, some times i never see my teammakes till we are defending the hack

[MattxMosh]

You fire the most obvious looking projectile in the game (big orange streak) with an incredibly distinct sound. A sniper will never be able to stay hidden in this game because the second you fire your gun you are exposing your location. And grass isn't an issue. Of the handful of people who have more than Low flora levels, the distance the flora shows up at is pretty short. Sniper range stuff would show a ground devoid of vegetative cover.

I am primarily a sniper, and I wish they would add prone for one reason, shooting under those small gaps under boulders.

I'd also love to see a chnge in teh bolt driver, ala lower calibur, less sound, but less damage, with the ability to fire more than one round without reloading, or at least reloading quicker.

But thats just a pipe dream, and that would take away from the challenge I suppose.

[Warborn]

I am primarily a sniper, and I wish they would add prone for one reason, shooting under those small gaps under boulders.

Boulders like that are few and far between. There are a bunch in the center of Searhus, but otherwise they aren't common. Like many other small changes that would require a lot of work, I don't see it improving the gameplay much at all really.

[KIAsan]

Samhayne even said that the stuff you unlock will not be meant to make other weapons obsolete. So (to use his example) if you unlock some kind of MCG variant, the MCG variant won't be just a MCG which does more damage or has a better fire arc, as that'll make the default MCG obsolete. Rather, the variant would have a tigher cone of fire, but slower fire rate, or vice versa, making it simply a different take on the MCG, and something that, in some cases, would be inferior to the base MCG.

Yeah, they always make it sound good at first. Then comes the release, and the stuff is way over buffed and those who get to it first, enjoy endless slaughter. Eventually, they nerf it down and it gets in balance. In the mean time, more folks quit out of frustration.

Yup, sounds like the standard SOE cycle of development. I'm not so much worried about what we will end up with after the fixes, but what happens before they finally get it tweaked.

[oddfish]

This sounds like some RPG element. Like a D&D game.

"The Banner of Korgoroth is planted! Rally to me! DM, everyone in a 30-ft radius gets plus-two to their morale."

*sigh* the banner isn't what has the damn "buff power," it's the character carrying the damn thing. the banner just signifies that he's the squad leader/platoon leader and that he's one important and skilled sonofabitch and that if you stick with him you're ass is going to have some nice improvements. also, the opposition can SEE who the leader is and can pick him off more easily. this makes the shit more "fair."

the banner itself has no "power," it just allows the character to use HIS. not just ANYone can pick up the banner and be like "LOOK TO ME! I AM TEH WEILDAR OF TEH BANNAR!! TO ME! CHARGE, CHILDREN OF VANU" or whatever..

[Warborn]

Yeah, they always make it sound good at first. Then comes the release, and the stuff is way over buffed and those who get to it first, enjoy endless slaughter. Eventually, they nerf it down and it gets in balance. In the mean time, more folks quit out of frustration.

Hyperbole aside, is there ever really any addition to any game that is perfect when first released?

[KIAsan]

Hyperbole aside, is there ever really any addition to any game that is perfect when first released?
Hmm, don't think that was overly exaggerated. It happened with BFRs, it happend with Lasher 2.0, and that is just two examples (I'm sure you can think of many more). What they really need to do is quit rushing this crap into the game, and just maybe test it more than one or two playtests. Then we could have a game addition that is perfect.

Hehe, kind of funny though. He we are arguing over SOE. Kind of pointless. But once again, I will back off and take the wait and see position. Don't know what Adv Merits will be like, so I will patiently wait until release. And maybe they will be wonderful and I will happily post I was wrong to be so pessimistic (there is always a first time for everything, even for SOE).