Griefing without grief points.

[NapalmEnima]

Okay, I was posting on the official boards a minute ago, and I had a little nightmare.

TK's will want to be in your squad.

Once in, they can wait until the worst possible moment, then betray you in the worst possible way. Destroying key squad vehicles, most likely.

So they run amok, TK a vehicle or two, a person or two. The command acts fast (he was in the middle of a fire-fight and couldn't react instantly) and punts the TK out of the squad.

So the TK stops killing squad mates. He might take a pot-shot or two at people, but not aiming FOR them... just NEAR them. The ex-squadmate kills the TK, getting grief points.


So, who's done all the damage, and who's got the grief to show for it?


Sucks, eh?


Solution: Track squad-kicks. If someone has repeatedly been kicked out of squads, I want to know about it, so I don't let them into MINE.

That would require two different methods for squad removal: "Drop-kick your sorry butt" and "catch ya next time". So when you want to violently eject a TK, it's logged (or at least loggable) differently than when the commander wants to form a new squad.

This would require a certain amount of commander knowledge, and could itself be abused... but only once. If you've "punted" me for no reason, I'm NOT getting back in your squad again.


Thoughts?

[Tobias]

I think that instead of no grief points inside a squad a squad should have a grief point dampener, like you accidentally cap all your squad mates, that would be allot of grief points but the dampener abosorbs it, but if you do it again (because your evil and they did not give you the boot) then you get the grief's.

[Kyonye]

well hopefully, if they notice that you are killing way too many of your own empire, they will boot you. thats what will probably happen. i would say, the only way to get rid of a TKer's ability is to take off friendly fire but then it wouldn't be as realistic (i.e. a bomb going off in a room with a few allies and it doesn't kill you). the point is that to be able to play really well, you'll have to be able to understand how not to accidentally kill your own teammates. makes the game more challenging.

[mistled]

It'd be an interesting stat to track, but what if you just don't get along with the guy in charge and he decides to kick you just to make you look bad later??

Besides, if the guy has already screwed the mission, we don't kick him instantly. My boys just treat him as an enemy and blow his head off everytime they see him until he quits. The situation is still handled and my squad doesn't feel like the guy got away with anything.

Oh yeah, and grief points reset every day if I remember correctly. Each member of the squad could go kill him once and it wouldn't hurt them much. And if it's a player you see often, you could kill him once everyday. :D

[Tobias]

Sounds like a plan.

[mistled]

Originally posted by Tobias
I think that instead of no grief points inside a squad a squad should have a grief point dampener, like you accidentally cap all your squad mates, that would be allot of grief points but the dampener abosorbs it, but if you do it again (because your evil and they did not give you the boot) then you get the grief's. NNNOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :p Nav and I shoot eachother outside of combat situations entirely too much to get grief points for doing it. You know, like when you're on teamspeak or something and the other guy starts talking smack about how he can kill you with his eyes closed, so you just have to shoot him. :D

[NapalmEnima]

Another solution:

Squad grief cap. Set things up so that in-squad grief can't possibly take you past level X. I'd pick level 2 (big nasty warning level).

That way, if you come across someone who's stats show that they've been at level 2 grief almost constantly, you'll know there's a good chance that they're an in-squad TK.

AND, if someone is maxed out on in-squad grief, and they SO MUCH AS NICK someone outside your squad, they get locked. And I'm okay with that. Be careful, ya ijit.

I'd also like to see some kind of flag that says "THIS PERSON HAS HIT THEIR GRIEF CAP" on their stat page. A warning to their commander would be good too.

[NapalmEnima]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
It'd be an interesting stat to track, but what if you just don't get along with the guy in charge and he decides to kick you just to make you look bad later??

Then you end up with 1 'punt'. A small number isn't going to be a big deal... a career squad-TKer will rack up a much larger number.

Significant difference.

Plus, you never join that guy's squad again, so he can't punt you any more. Problem solved.

[mistled]

I see it the same way with the tker as you do with the commander who just punts people he doesn't like. If the commander punts you for no good reason, don't join his squad. If a guy starts tk'ing, kick him out and don't let him back in. Either way, you aren't helped in the future, from either bad commanders or tkers. They can't track everything. And I don't want to have to read an eight page report of stats for all the possible screw ups a guy can have. :)

[txMaddog]

Does the stat tracker track kills by Empire?? If it does then TK'ers should stand out (ie high number of his Empire kills).

[Anarion]

If you've got a squad of 5 or 10 (tkers will probably NOT show their faces in the middle of platoons), once multiple squad mates go down to their own guy, your squad turns on him..

If you witness the tker in action it should be easy to recognize it for what it is (i.e. not an erring shot in the middle of a big fight).
Otherwise you give him the benefit of the doubt or ask the deceased how they died before you decide to kick him..

If he's still hostile, he's outnumbered 3:1, 4:1, 5:1, etc etc.. Which means he's toast, with no grief points to you. Then kicked out of the squad immediately, bringing grief to him if he tks you again..

I'm sure there will be an online resource for something like this at some time.. Maybe some way for commanders to relay the players who are actively trying to tk within squads or who are simply big abusers of the system. Like a "crap player roster" or something.. A screenshot or two for proof would be enough no doubt..

All in all the PS team seems to have a great idea going on with grief points, and I think its gonna change how other games deal with it as well.. You'll probably see a big decline in tking in this game over any other you've played online before IMO..

tking will at any rate become the most inefficient way of knocking off your teammates or getting your kicks in PS..

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by NapalmEnima

Solution: Track squad-kicks. If someone has repeatedly been kicked out of squads, I want to know about it, so I don't let them into MINE.
This creates a whole new type of griefing. There is the impersonate a commander and booting all your squad members griefing.

[TerraxNovae]

Frankly I think the best counter to griefing is reputation and higher level characters. If your character is >BR5 you will start to develop a rep if you TK repeatedly.

Since you can get to BR5 with the VR training, a TK isn't going to waste time getting rid of his rep by making a new character and then running through all the VR training.

Personally I will tend to keep a eye on anyone BR5 or less, and not be very tolerant of any "mistakes". Basicallly one strike and your out.

[Arshune]

I think that TKing, hax0ring and all that jazz will be pretty hard to come by in PS. Most people who TK won't want to pay a monthly fee to play a game. Also, people who TK and cheat in FPS games only do so because they typically don't get punished. The very presence of the grief system itself will probably end up being a pretty good deterrent to such monkeyshines. We'll all probably see a jerkoff or two, but if you're going to get your panties in a bunch about 3 or 4 errant morons in a crowd of thousands you probably shouldn't even be operating an internet-ready PC. ;)

[NapalmEnima]

Not eight pages, just a few stats:

Worst grief level & date of that level (2)
Greif/hour over career and last X hours of play (2)
Squad kicks, total, and over last X hours of play (2)

I suggest X > 3... < 20. 10 sounds good to me.


All this stuff could be summerized into a single TK-risk level, that would combine all these stats into a single value...


Here's my point:

I want TK'ers the hell out of my life. The existing grief point system will work well against people outside your squad, but not at all once someone is inside your squad.

Because there is system in place against TK'ing outside a squad, dedicated, clever TKers will try to get inside a squad, so they can still get their jollies without suffering the consequences of the grief system.

So I'm making some suggestings for in-game systems that would shut TKers down completely. I'm sure there are other alternatives, and I'd love to hear them. That's not entirely true... I'd love for the devs to hear and IMPLEMENT them.

I realize that there are non-game-system solutions to in-squad TKs:
1) Only form squads with members of your outfit... but that that only works if you're in an outfit, and if you've got enough people around to actually form a squad.

2) Don't get into a squad, ever. But that cuts down on your BEP earning, and takes away a large portion of the game... organized combat.

[TerraxNovae]

Only problem Napalm, if the Griefer is using the squad feature to cancel out the grief, they'll never have that bit. Possibly you could track total hits on friendly targets over the last X hours of play... that might be a way to get those that are trying to slip through the cracks...

[Mikedanad]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Oh yeah, and grief points reset every day if I remember correctly. Each member of the squad could go kill him once and it wouldn't hurt them much. And if it's a player you see often, you could kill him once everyday. :D

What if you were smart..and could time tihngs right, went on a mass murder spree just before server reset, and although yo killed 15 people, you still only have 100 gp's cause you only killed 1 person that day...?

[TerraxNovae]

I don't think its a "every day" type thing. I think its a rate thing.

Play this long, you go down X number of points, just to prevent this kind of exploit.

[Subliminal]

I dont think theres going to be THAT much greifing in this game. Im not fps afficianado but I do know that scumbag gamers are usually scumbag people that cant really throw down a WHOPPING $10 a month to play a game ;) I also had and Idea of the commander of a squad having the option to set a greif level and then its an auto kick after you reach it. also Set Greif point boundry at a reasonable level that no accidental griefs will get you kicked.

Ie: commander has option to Set Max GP at #X# and if any one in the squad reaches that number some kind of kick script boots his ass out. I think this would be a wonderful way to control TK's and allow people who want to just team up and have little TK wars to have their fun

PATENT PENDING :D

[Unknown]

I think the best way to deal with the kind of griefers that go through all the trouble to find ways around the in-game grief system will be the customer service reps. Basically, no matter how much you add to the grief system, there's always going to be SOME way to grief in some form or other and get away with it. Plus, the more they add to the grief system, the less leeway you have for mistakes, and in some ways you can even open up more avenues for griefing (ex. if they implemented that commander "punt" idea, then you could get griefers that'd make squads then "punt" everyone in their squad just for fun).

So if someone regularly purposely TKs squadmates, report him to the CSRs. If they get 3 or 4 reports they are bound to get the watch dog "sicked" on them. The devs have stated that if you have the watch dog system watching you theres very little you'd be able to get away with. At that point it's a human making the calls and humans will do something that a set grief system can't: make judgement calls.

[Hellsfire123]

The devs def need to read this, so....bump

I like the idea of keeping track of grief kicks, but we could get around the commander griefing. Everyone remember how CS admin_kick command works? Cast a vote in the squad after the kick to see if its a "grief kick", if over 50% think it should be then its logged, if no one does, or very little anyway, then it isnt.

Only problem is if the commander invites one person, then kicks them, thats still over 50% of the remaining people in the squad. So we would need to make a minimum vote count also, prob 2 or 3. If a commander actually has trouble with the first person he invites, he can always talk to the CSR people.

[NapalmEnima]

Actually, the whole "informed commander" thing raises an interesting possibility:

Griefer Griefing!

Invite no one BUT squad-TKers, drive them out to a base attack, then log out or switch characterS... Whoever was invited first becomes the new squad commander (IIRC), and they can tear each other into little itty bitty pieces.

:D

Reminds me of the "Commander Stern" skit in the original Heavy Metal movie:

"Hangin's too good for him! BURNIN'S TOO GOOD FOR HIM!!! HE OUGHT TO BE TORN INTO ITTY BITTY PIECES AND BURIED ALIVE!!!

Imagine how pissed off they'd be when THEY get TKed instead of doing the TKing... it warms the cockles of my heart just thinking about it.

What the heck is a "cockle" anyway? Dictionary.com says it's a wrinkly shellfish, which in turn became an expression for anything wrinkly or puckered. Bizzare. The 'wrinkles of my heart'. That's a weird one.

[Arshune]

What I always said about grief players was that more control should be given to the people in the game with them, and that control should be a lot more accessible. Too many games have these half-assed voting options that no one even remembers how to use (CS) or console commands that no one can remember (BF1942). A lot of people who casually play games don't even know what a friggin console is; in all FPS games there should just be an button for "start kick vote" and when you hit it, a list of player names should come up with numbers beside them, and hitting the appropriate number broadcasts the vote to the whole game. A lot of game developers don't put in strict anti-grief measures like that because they say that system would "open up various avenues of abuse," but I say NOT having strict measures LEAVES various avenues of abuse open.

They should do that for PS in squads, anyone can start a vote and if it passes you're out. Accumulate too many squad kicks and your whole account gets stuck with a grief level of two, thus putting you on "grief probation." Accumulate a certain amount of squad kicks when on probation and grief level 3 is put on your account. Get the kind of system I'm thinking of? They should also make grief levels visible to other players (if they haven't done so already). I know that seems harsh, but if you don't try to TK people they won't kick you, and if someone wants to grief you with squad kicks, don't repeatedly join their group. If you see them doing it to other people, report them. That system seems pretty airtight to me, anyone care to pick it apart?

[Flameseeker]

Just make a limit on how much damage you can deal to a friendly before being kicked. If you accidentally hit someone with a nade and get kicked, the squad leader could just yank you back in. If you purposefully unload your jackhammer into someones back, you should get kicked, and stay kicked.

[mistled]

Y'all are getting way too uptight about this. If someone is tking a lot, report them to the CSR as was mentioned above. Once the CSRs are watching them, their account will be closed if they continue tking. It's a very simple thing that I think will work just fine how they seem to have it set up.

[Arshune]

CSRs can't be everywhere at once though, I want those suckas gone ASAP. :)

[Airlift]

I'm with the don't think it will be a problem set. Everybody in the squad should report any rampant griefers.