[RANT]Antiwar directors need not read this thread

[AztecWarrior]

NOTE: To illustrate a point, this thread does make use of Nazi imagery including Swastikas, double runes, etc. I am not a Nazi and do not support their views. If you are offended or your government has banned such imagery, please do not read on.

First off, let's set two things clear.

1: I don't care if you are anti-war, pro-war, for some wars, for global nuclear mass suicide, whatever. I may disagree but I will always respect your opinion and your basis for it. I may want to kill someone, but I don't know if I could.

2: I don't care if you are right-wing, left-wing, up, or down. However, I am appalled when people resort to propaganda and subliminal messaging to spread opinion.

Those points aside, let us examine Starship Troopers, which I had the misfortune to see while waiiting for my dad to activate a WoW trial account.

I just wanted to see some bugs blow up. I will admit, the concept behind the movie is great. The special effects are stellar. However, my praise ends there.

First off, the movie treats the human government in place like a bunch of Nazis. Propaganda such as "Service Guarantees Citizenship" and "Join Now!" during the news broadcasts is a mockery of military recruiters. Then I saw the uniforms.

For reference, and no offense to any ****, Slavs, or other victims of the Holocaust, here is the uniform of Deputy Fuhrer Rudolf Hess:

http://www.libreopinion.com/members/divisionblanca/retrato%20rudolp%20hess.jpg

This is the image of the dress uniform of the Mobile Infantry:

http://www.starshiptroopers.net/Troopers%20025.jpg

All that's missing is a tie to look like a greyed version of that uniform, and in a funeral scene, the protagonists do don ties.

Here is the SS double lightning bolt badge:

http://www.lindberghkidnappinghoax.com/ss.jpg

Here are some of the badges worn by the Mobile Infantry:

http://www.starshiptroopers.net/Troopers%20063.jpg

Here is the uniform of the SS:

http://www.replicaters.com/M38%20style%20tunic%20in%20Field%20gray.jpg

Here is the uniform of the Fleet:

http://www.brendastrong.com/images/starship1.jpg
This gets worse as at the end of the movie, three high-ranking officers appear with full dress uniform and black trenchcoats.

I think that nothing really else needs to be shown on this topic.

Then, as if calling the military a bunch of straight arm saulters wasn't enough, the infamous co-ed shower scene, pre-battle scenes, etc. show our troops as a bunch of kids who want to kill everything, who think it's all just a game, a la Apocalypse Now- though I did like that movie. They get tatooed, there is no discipline, etc.

So please...hold the bullshit when making movies. Add your political commentary elsewhere.

[JetRaiden]

very nice research, aztec.


However Starship Troopers is such a shitty movie I doubt anyone could recall noticing that.

But I agree with you 100%, producers are fucking dumbasses for showing their political views subliminally in their movies. Keep your opinions to yourself, and focus more on making a quality film.

[starbum]

Allow me to quote a rather good explaination of why the universe was created the way it was in Starship Troopers:
"A good portion of Heinlein's reflections are polemical, and yield the author the none-too-praiseworthy labels of "fascist" and "militarist," because in the future he creates, people acquire the right to vote only after two years of voluntary service to the State. That service can be as much civil as military. Beneath it all, what Heinlein seems to propose is a meritocracy formed by people who, at some point in their lives, sacrificed their own interests in favor of society as a whole. As with many North American conservatives, Heinlein (who died in 1988) was disquieted by the increasingly predominant view that the individual is benefitted by the State-maintained social organization without making a major pledge to society in return. In his opinion, those who made that sacrifice would have a greater sense of responsibility in electing their governing officials and charging them with better performance from the State. Those who did not accept that order of things would not be discriminated against, exactly (Johnny's family, composed of non-citizens, was quite rich, to the point that his father considered citizenship a dispensible luxury), but rather, left outside the centers of decisionmaking."

Very nazi indeed. </sarcasm>

Dont judge a book by its cover or uniform. The book was awesome. The movie looked awesome. Read the book and learn why things were potrayed the way they where - not judge the storyline based on a uniform. Lets leave it at that.

[OfaLoaf]

The movie was so-so. The book was entertaining, but I disagreed with the philosophies in it, and the reason why that form of government was made in the first place.

[AztecWarrior]

Allow me to quote a rather good explaination of why the universe was created the way it was in Starship Troopers:
"A good portion of Heinlein's reflections are polemical, and yield the author the none-too-praiseworthy labels of "fascist" and "militarist," because in the future he creates, people acquire the right to vote only after two years of voluntary service to the State. That service can be as much civil as military. Beneath it all, what Heinlein seems to propose is a meritocracy formed by people who, at some point in their lives, sacrificed their own interests in favor of society as a whole. As with many North American conservatives, Heinlein (who died in 1988) was disquieted by the increasingly predominant view that the individual is benefitted by the State-maintained social organization without making a major pledge to society in return. In his opinion, those who made that sacrifice would have a greater sense of responsibility in electing their governing officials and charging them with better performance from the State. Those who did not accept that order of things would not be discriminated against, exactly (Johnny's family, composed of non-citizens, was quite rich, to the point that his father considered citizenship a dispensible luxury), but rather, left outside the centers of decisionmaking."

Very nazi indeed. </sarcasm>

Dont judge a book by its cover or uniform. The book was awesome. The movie looked awesome. Read the book and learn why things were potrayed the way they where - not judge the storyline based on a uniform. Lets leave it at that.


Great, but Heinlein had little say in this movie.

The movie was directed by Paul Verhoeven, and the screenplay was done by Edward Neumeier. In fact, he appears nowhere in the credits but with the title of "Story":

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hv&id=1800024844&cf=cast&intl=us

That may be true about the book, starbum, but it's the movie I am talking about. Furthermore, although I will take this opinion at face value, one Yahoo! user said that the book (which I have not read, hence the face value judgement) was completely disregarded in the making of the movie and elements such as military service required for citizenship were added on to fascism, etc.:

http://movies.yahoo.com/mvc/dfrv?mid=1800024844&rvid=255-75221&i=0&spl=0&nn=1&ys=M01qBt17rMKn9pkduA2kvA--

[OfaLoaf]

In the book, it is required to have service in the military before you can vote. You can do everything but vote and hold office without military service.
Also, some variations of the soldiers battlesuits shoot small nuclear weapons. But that's not the point.

[Hamma]

This is why movies suck now, because people over analyze them :(

[AztecWarrior]

I agree that I think too much, but the point still stands: directors need to stop including sublime social critique in their films.

[Pilgrim]

But the Book is a social critique. To not put any of the more fascist elements into the movie would do even more of a disservice to the book then was allready done.

I don't think there was any suvtle social critique here at all. The book is about a Fascist Military state, so the movie uses easily recocnized fascist symbols!

And even if that were not true, I can show you a side by side of a Hitler Youth uniform and an early Boy scout uniform and make all the same comparisons that you have above!

OMG The boy Scouts are trying to build the fourth reich!!!! OMG!!!!

[Fehronozova]

OMG The boy Scouts are trying to build the fourth reich!!!! OMG!!!!
Neeiiiinnn!

[MrPaul]

I agree that I think too much, but the point still stands: directors need to stop including sublime social critique in their films.
Sorry that is just screaming at me. :lol:

Anyway, to be honest the first couple of unifroms you compare, in my opinion, look nothing alike..

As Hamma said, people over analyze things. I do language, you do films.

[Headrattle]

A: Yes it was a shitty movie.
B: Yeah I noticed that when I saw it as well. It was as if the costume designer also designed cloths for the Third Reich.
C: Given that the Director is the same director of Showgirls, Basic Instinct, and Hollow Man, I would have to say that he is a threat to the American way of Life and should be hunted down and killed like every other terrorist.

[OfaLoaf]

OMG The boy Scouts are trying to build the fourth reich!!!! OMG!!!!
We haven't done anything to the ****! You can't prove a thing!

[Ridetehlightnin]

Starship Troopers is a brilliant film. I didn't notice anything you said, I was too distracted with the gorieness/action/effects of the film. Average people watch films for those qualitys, and disregard any connections/relationships to reallife in the films.

Pausing Starship troopers at the naked parts for teh win!

[Baneblade]

I actually liked the movie, it isnt far fetched either.

[Ridetehlightnin]

Not enough nudity though

[Ridetehlightnin]

wait bein sensible right. whoever started this thred sed sumnit bout 'subliminal messages'.. arent books/films/songs all about getting a message across anyway? Don't the authors make a fictional story that makes viewers relate to their opinons on something in real life?

[JetRaiden]

wait bein sensible right. whoever started this thred sed sumnit bout 'subliminal messages'.. arent books/films/songs all about getting a message across anyway? Don't the authors make a fictional story that makes viewers relate to their opinons on something in real life?

what



anyway, for the part of that statement thats comprehensible, authors/producers arent always trying to get their message across. Depending on the piece, its usually just for the purpose of entertainment, not educating the public on their beliefs.

[starbum]

I dont understand why you cant just appreciate it for what it is... a good story. Does it matter if it was influenced by political beliefs? Its a good story, great background, and very rich. Both the movie and the book. Lets leave it there. I dont see any militaristic governments forming because of the movie or what uniforms they wore.

"Lets not argue and bicker about who killed who, this is suppost to be a happy occasion"

[EarlyDawn]

I dont understand why you cant just appreciate it for what it is... a good story. Does it matter if it was influenced by political beliefs? Its a good story, great background, and very rich. Both the movie and the book. Lets leave it there. I dont see any militaristic governments forming because of the movie or what uniforms they wore.

"Lets not argue and bicker about who killed who, this is suppost to be a happy occasion"Indeed.

[Neon Apocalypse]

I saw the movie a long time ago, and I never noticed these things.
The movie itself was good by my standards, but when I saw it first I think I was 7 or 8. Another weird thing was when I first saw it, it was rated PG13, then the day after I saw it they changed the rating to R. I've never heard of a rating being changed after release.

I think the producer put the subliminal naziesqueness into the movie for the people that have read the book. So they would notice it, but others wouldn't.

I can't say much more because I don't remember much from the movie.

A weird connection is the main character is from South America, where many Nazi's fled to avoid prosecution after WWII.

[Ivan]

...Anyway, to be honest the first couple of unifroms you compare, in my opinion, look nothing alike...
Indeed. Especially the first one.

[drsomewhere]

I also enjoyed this movie thoroughly. Great action sci/fi flick. And overall, i think the propaganda was meant more to be comical then to be taken seriously. Cant we just all get along?

[Ivan]

...Cant we just all get along?
NO!!!! NEVAR!!!!!!! :mad: :nazi: :flamemad:



;) :D :lol: :love:

[Headrattle]

I thought that the movie sucked.

The Writing Sucked.
The Dialog sucked.
The Acting Sucked.
The Special Effects were kinda cool.
The Directing sucked.

I went into the movie with hopes that it would be a decent sci-fi flick. I came out with the impression that my money had been taken out of my hand by way of my ass.

[JetRaiden]

I thought that the movie sucked.

The Writing Sucked.
The Dialog sucked.
The Acting Sucked.
The Special Effects were kinda cool.
The Directing sucked.

I went into the movie with hopes that it would be a decent sci-fi flick. I came out with the impression that my money had been taken out of my hand by way of my ass.

it did suck. I watched the 2nd half and I thought it was a fucking joke.

[ViperGTS]

Ive heard that the second one is like eating broken glass. Onl;y ten times less fun.

[Derfud]

I enjoyed starship troopers. Never saw the second one.

By the way. Anyone ever seen that show "firefly" on fox? I swear they used the infantry uniforms from starship troopers in that show.

[Baneblade]

Firefly :( still miss that show.

[Majik]

I liked the movie starship troopers. Everytime I play planetside and we get into a good base defense, I think of it and broadcast "HOLD WHAT YOU'VE GOT!!!!!"

I do remember the first time I saw the film thinking that the Psi-officers uniforms reminded me alot of what the germans wore during the WWs. Seriously though, compare all european/asian uniforms of that time and you will see many similarities. Uniforms are kinda just that, Uniform.

[Ridetehlightnin]

The Writing Sucked.
The Dialog sucked.
The Acting Sucked.
The Special Effects were kinda cool.
The Directing sucked.
The writin was nice, the dialog was nice, the actin was nice, the special effects were phenomenal the directin was nice..
btw
There's a sequel? I loved the first one, I'd definetly like to see the second.

[Firefly]

The only reference that has any validity is the gray SS uniforms, with the peaked caps and the trenchcoats.

However. The trenchcoat is still used by services world-wide. In fact, the US Army and the US Air Force use the trenchcoat in its service dress during inclement weather (aka pussy weather). So, because we use them, are we Nazis too?

The other uniforms? No. The soft-cap (garrison "ballcap" type) maybe, but it's far off.

As far as the insignia - the lightning bolt is a symbol of power and strength. Many military units use the lightning bolt. Are they also Nazi sympathizers for using an everyday natural occurence as part of their military heraldry? And, as a matter of simple face, the lightning bolt is jagged in shape. The German "SS" insignia copied the lightning bolt - the lightning bolt did not decide one day, "Hey that SS looks fuckin cool, let's make our visual effect look like it!"

Stop thinking. You're hurting people.

PS, I saw the second Starship Troopers. It sucked, but there was a couple of naked hotties in it.