Free Speech or Hate Symbol?

[Unregistered]

http://rebelstuff.com/confedimages/btleflg.gif

http://www.fotw.ca/images/sex-rb.gif

Presented Above are two diffrent flags. Which one of these flags is offensive, and should not be allowed to flown in public? Which flag needs to be censored? Why?

Now let me cover the Common Arguments since they are essentially the same thing.

Confederate Flag:

One Man says: A symbol of hate, and a constant reminder of the slave days. It is racist and flying it violates my rights.

Another Man Says: This is a symbol Sourthen Pride

Rainbow Flag:

One Man Says: This is a symbol of homosexuality, something that is against my religous beleifs. Allowing this to be flown violates my rights.

Another Man Says: This is a symbol of Gay Pride

Being an Adult, and being an American is about protecting our rights as a whole. Not just protecting the things that you agree with, but protecting the things that you dissagree with as well. Despite that fact that I do not like the gay pride flag, and that I personally do not want to see it flying from City Light Posts, I feel it has as much right to be there as any flag. By the same token the Confederate Flag has as much right to be flown as the gay pride flag. Neither one of them is truely offensive. The only thing in question is ones personal feelings and weather or not they have the right to let them be known.

One mans pride is another mans source of dissgust, but does that make it hateful? Are the gays commiting a hate crime when they fly their flag?

You can not pick and choose when issues like this arise. There is no Grey Area in censorship. You must either support Censorship, or you must Support Free Speech, even if what is being said is not what you agree with. I will always fight on the side free speech, because tomarrow it might be me they want to censor.

[Navaron]

I say letem both fly. People can burn my flag, so everyone else can fly theirs. I also have the right to burn theirs (not that I would)....

[mistled]

Let them both fly. Neither of them represent Christianity, so no one on this forum should have a problem with them.

[archaic1128]

I say let both flags fly. That is what freedom of speech is all about. Tis a sad day when we get sued or persecuted for not being in the "politically correct". Unfortunately, we are losing are right to free speech daily because someone gets offended, pretty sad if i say so myself.

[Unregistered]

The sad part is that they do it under the guise of protecting our rights. If you ever talk to a libral they will tell you that "Our Civil Libirties are being eroded", then turn around and create legislation to censor what we hear, read, and say.

[SandTrout]

Both should be able to fly, even though political corectness banns the first.

/me grabs asbestose suits for Unregistered, archaic, Naveron, and Mistled.

Bring on the flames.:furious:

[Arshune]

I'm gonna say that freedom of speech is all well and good as long as people understand that there's no reason to go off and say things just because they can. I can legally call people hateful names, but does that mean I should? We shouldn't go making laws to punish people that say things like that, it just shouldn't be encouraged.

I don't think the Confederate Flag is a symbol of southern pride, they lost that war AND some of the Confederate states were in the west. Let it fly if you want to tell people "I remember the time when my state got beat."

I don't really care if someone wants to fly a rainbow flag to say what kind of personal life they have, as long as what they're doing only pertains to consenting adults.

[Mtx]

I could care less about a piece of cloth. ;)

[Civilian]

IMO, the Confederate flag is a hate-symbol. I am much more offended by that, and could see how an African-American would be offended by that flag. The Gay-Pride flag, is not offensive and I don't understand how you can argue it is. The best you could argue is the life the people who fly that flag lead is offensive to several religious groups, but it would be like telling a Baptist church they aren't allowed to put up a cross because their lifestyle offends me.

That being said, any person deciding to fly these flags has the right to do so. I DO NOT and will not support the flying of the confederate flag at state institutions or buildings unless it is at a site of historical significance.

I will tell you this, I have had friends, specifically during the days that I was in high school that chose to fly the confederate flag, and these people(no matter what they may argue) did NOT like black people. I was extremely naive then, and have since come to my senses, but I have seen this type of racism first-hand.

[SandTrout]

Hate shouldn't be encouraged, but that is something we must do on our own, not try to have laws passed against it.

I can't wait till Lex finds this thread. :twisted:

[MrVicchio]

Its al in the eye of the beholder.

I see nothing wrong with the Confederate flag, for it does not stand for hate, or racism, as much as some would liek you to believe. Rather is stands for Southern Pride.

Much is made of the fact the Condfederavy had slavery, but did they fight a war becuase they hated black people? Or because that was how the world was, in thier view?

Damn, once you realize that was the main reason for the civil war, the differences in culture, and not fall prey to the racist red herring, it makes the issue clearer.


Slavery was a horrid institution, that still exsists today. But condemning a symbol of something because i is ASSOCIATED with racism, is wrong, in that light, the US Flag should offend you, for the USA once allowed slavery.

[Navaron]

WTF. I'm not going to delve further into this, but the civil war did not start over slavery. It was fought over states rights. The year before the entire country went through a massive recession, but the south grew immensely, this was all the proof that they would be better off without the shackles of Northern laws. So they left the union. The whole war was fought for states rights, the right to declare slave state or not was just a fraction of those rights. Go read some history people, I hear that everywhere. Don't make me start scanning in pages from history books. I'll do it.

[afex]

people who associate the rebel flag with slavery and therefore hate are simply ignorant, thats all there is to it.

sure slavery happened during its era, duh. but that isn't what it stands for.

with that logic we could associate the gay flag with AIDS and therefore disease and death.

[MrVicchio]

Nav, I didn't say it did strt over lsavery, I said the differnces in Culture, and IMHO implied other reasons.

[archaic1128]

Nav, You might have to read those pages to most as well. It is quite common for most people to not research, it's easier for them to go along w/ opinions of others. But hey, history books are nothing don't you know...the media is unbiased.

[Navaron]

Hah - sorry Vic, I didn't mean for that to sound like it was directed at you. I had just got into an arguement with a guy at school over the same thing. Sorry bud. I wasn't even talking to you....whoops.

/note to self - tone down......

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Unregistered
The sad part is that they do it under the guise of protecting our rights. If you ever talk to a libral they will tell you that "Our Civil Libirties are being eroded", then turn around and create legislation to censor what we hear, read, and say.
Nope.

Would you consider me to be liberal?

I would say let them both fly, although I like neither of them.

I want what is best for this country. So do you. I am sorry that you think me so evil for disagreeing with you about what is best for this country.

I should be ashamed of myself.

[SandTrout]

We don't think you're evil because you want do what's best for your country, but because of what you think is best for our country.

In the other thread you are very strongly against free speach, and yes, I consider you extreamly liberal.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by SandTrout
We don't think you're evil because you want do what's best for your country, but because of what you think is best for our country.

In the other thread you are very strongly against free speach, and yes, I consider you extreamly liberal.
I can yell, "there is no fire." But it is illegal for me to yell "there is a fire."

Waaaaaa, I want to be able to scream "fire". My freedom of speech is gone. What a horrible country.

[archaic1128]

"Would you consider me to be liberal?"

Yes, along w/ being an atheist, and an evolutionist.

"I am sorry that you think me so evil for disagreeing with you about what is best for this country."

I personally don't think your an evil person. It is quite hard to get such an assumption by reading your posts.

[Navaron]

yelling fire can kill someone, saying ass pounding is wrong will not.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
Nope.

Would you consider me to be liberal?

I would say let them both fly, although I like neither of them.

I want what is best for this country. So do you. I am sorry that you think me so evil for disagreeing with you about what is best for this country.

I should be ashamed of myself.

I wasn't even thinking of you when I posted that. I was thinking of people like Tipper Gore, and Joe Libberman.

I know most librals are just confused, and if they took the time to figure out their own values, compared them with the actions of libral politicians, and conservative politians they'd find out conservatives values are closer to their own then libral values.

If their not confussed then their just crazy, and I have compassion for the mentaly ill. :D

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
yelling fire can kill someone, saying ass pounding is wrong will not.

Misquoting you or lying about you in the press won't kill you, however it is illegal.

[Bighoss]

The confederate flag is not a hate symbol in my eyes. The civil war really wasn't about slavery. Unfair taxes and tarrifs is what really get them trying to end slavery was just the final push. That flag express's southern culture but the way the KKK and hate groups use it make it a hate symbol.

[MrVicchio]

With freedom comes responsibility.

Making "Yelling fire in a crowded theater is illegal thus a violation of my free speech" is absurd, and lacks merit. It is not a violation of your free speech. you are FREE to yell it if you wish, you jsut have to pay the consequences for your actions.

Go lok up the Supreme Court judgement on this and some of the other items you cite, there you will find the truth to the mattter as decided by people far more intelligent then any of us here.

[Bighoss]

that's good to know that smarter people get to do the thinking for us. its a load of my back:D

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
With freedom comes responsibility.

Making "Yelling fire in a crowded theater is illegal thus a violation of my free speech" is absurd, and lacks merit. It is not a violation of your free speech. you are FREE to yell it if you wish, you jsut have to pay the consequences for your actions.

Go lok up the Supreme Court judgement on this and some of the other items you cite, there you will find the truth to the mattter as decided by people far more intelligent then any of us here.

Uhhh Vic, How about the Communications Decency Act of 1996

[Fire_Monkey]

I believe that the confederate flag should not be able to fly, and the homosexual one should be able to. The confederate flag is a symbol that can be interpreted many different ways. BUT is can be interpreted as a violent symbol, whereas the homosexual flag cannot be interpreted as violent and be backed up with any evidence. The confederate flag is a symbol that begun a war where more people were killed than any other external war. Flying this proudly is unacceptable, being proud of something that could be interpreted as violent, and a symbol of mass death and destruction is unacceptable in my book. The confederate flag should be banned, and this should be enorced. The homhosexual flag should be able to be flow freely.

[Bighoss]

gays would declare war on hetero's and take over if they could just like the confederates;) so there flag is hate too:p

[�io]

I concur with the majority, let them both fly if you want.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
I believe that the confederate flag should not be able to fly, and the homosexual one should be able to. The confederate flag is a symbol that can be interpreted many different ways. BUT is can be interpreted as a violent symbol, whereas the homosexual flag cannot be interpreted as violent and be backed up with any evidence. The confederate flag is a symbol that begun a war where more people were killed than any other external war. Flying this proudly is unacceptable, being proud of something that could be interpreted as violent, and a symbol of mass death and destruction is unacceptable in my book. The confederate flag should be banned, and this should be enorced. The homhosexual flag should be able to be flow freely.

its pretty sad that people actually think like that.

[archaic1128]

Such is life when you're brainwashed by the public school system.

[Navaron]

Bingo.

[Fire_Monkey]

How can you throw such a statement out there afex? How do you disagree with something like this, or is it that you support symbols of death? Tell me Afex what you have against it and maybe you will learn something.Don't give me a blatant, cynical, disguised flame.

[Navaron]

The Confederate flag represents slavery no more than the name Democrat does. The flag represented the dissolution of the Union. I think democrats should change their names, because they are the ones that supported slavery the most. Doesn't make much sense does it?

[Fire_Monkey]

Actually the Ideals of Democrats in the past were of those that the Reublicans support today. So Democrats now would not have supported slavery. Republicans now in theory would.

[Hamma]

I hate these threads.

[Navaron]

The republican party was founded when 3 anti slavery groups joined and then opposed slavery. The democrats have been keeping minorities down for centuries.

[Fire_Monkey]

I seriously hope that was a joke. Democrats are the only party in office recently, that provides welfare, soup kitchens, and other support to the poor. Look at Texas. The poor are taxed 60% more because the taxation is so fucked up, there hasn't been strong a strong democratic government there for ages and the poor stay poor. The republicans seperate minorities by social status. They don't appear racist, but the minorities are kept down by racist, uncaring, republican officials. How can you say Democrats have been keeping the poor down for ages when they are the ones offering assistance to them. (note this is not addressed to you, Navs my bud, just addressed to your statement)







Fire_Monkey

[Navaron]

There are soo many things wrong with that statement, I honestly don't have time to reply.

[Fire_Monkey]

Well, we are obviously both very opinionated. I see that there are many Republicans with very different ideas from me in this forum. At least diversity is good, or do you disagree with that too?;)

edit-the tax thing was estimated but we did the figures in Anthro., they are very bad. BTW does no one care about minorities, or racism in this forum?. This is a bit shocking.

[Arshune]

Nothing is a symbol of hate unless displayed with malicious intent. To the Nazis, a swastika was a symbol of hate. To Buddhists, it's a symbol of peace.

[Fire_Monkey]

Err, actually that was the Navaho Indians, but yes I agree with Ashrune. I did not take into account the intent. The only trouble is, seeing if that intent is malicious or not. Good call Ashrune, I'm dropping my previous argument.

[OneManArmy]

One man says the Confederate flag is a symbol of Southern pride?


WTF has he been smoking??? It was as symbol of Southern pride when this country was divided. This is one country, one flag; now don't take me as some brainwashed patriot, because I'm not. But I live in North Carolina; I went to school with the "rednecks" the "rebels" if you will. They are the most ignorant people you will ever meet. There is simply no reason for the confederate flag; we are all in the same country, no more civil war.

I don't think the Flag itself is a symbol of hate, but the majority of the people that fly it are. Now I haven�t read all the posts in this thread yet so I will have to go back and read but I have not found one sensible reason as to why one needs to display a flag that bears no meaning anymore and belongs in a museum. Not to mention when said person who's flying it does so for all the wrong reasons.

Well I wont touch on the gay flag, because I have never seen it flown anywhere around here. But I will say at least that flag seems to be standing for a valid reason, the rights of people.

[Fire_Monkey]

Check my post, I said a simillar thing, and then Afex flamed me.

[Arshune]

It's a peace sign to buddhists too, they call it something else though.

[Fire_Monkey]

Ah, thanks, was it inverted like the Navaho one, because the Nazis modified thiers.

[Arshune]

I'm pretty sure it's just a swastika that they call by a different name. I don't remember, the only thing I know is that they banned a pokemon card because there was one in the background. I thought "wtf, that's ridiculous...kids don't know what that is."

[Bighoss]

bah people need to lighten before this race issue is delt with. Sueing and arresting people is not the answer. I think its pathetic that a sound I make with my mouth or a gesture with my body or an object can offend somone.

The problem is people want to live in a society that they celebrate their differences but are viewed as the same person as the one next to them. That is impossible it will never happen and I hate this unitainable goal.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
Check my post, I said a simillar thing, and then Afex flamed me.

your whole arguement is based on the "fact" that the confederate flags can be interpreted a number of ways.

uh, in case you haven't lived on earth for the past ever, ANYTHING can be interpreted an INFINITE number of ways.

i've just decided that your nickname represents the horrors of the destruction of our world's rainforests and the slaying of the innocent creatures who make it their home. it is offensive to me, you have to change it.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
There are soo many things wrong with that statement, I honestly don't have time to reply.

:rofl:

This needs to be in the Quote DB.

[Ludio]

If homosexuals were associated with slavery then I think the second flag would be considered as being offensive.

Personally though I think that you should have the right to do anything you want in regards to flag flying, flag burning, or any free speech stuff like that.

[MrVicchio]

I am from the "South" I see a confederate flag and I dont think Robert E Lee. I Think of all things not "Yankee" I don't see slavery, or any other bullsnot. I see "Yee HAW" I see the Dukes of Hazzard.

Yet you see hate. You see oppression, you see what the schools taught you to see, to think ot feel. You need to get out more.

[Fire_Monkey]

Well, that would be a little hard considering the fact that i'm 13. Obviously society has corrupted you. ;)

[eMaGyN]

Not to add to the fire...
or take a chance to lose respect.
but in my opinion, i do not like the confederate flag... i do believe it is still extremely hurtful for the descendents of people from the slave era. There was a huge time period where people were enslaved under that flag and I think its terrible to have that flag flying in "pride".
Pride for what? Enslaving millions of people? Thats nothing to be prideful about.
I know how much tears and blood were shed during those time periods, and letting that flag still fly... seems very disrespectful to those who have sacrificed their lives to this cause named "freedom".
Again, my opinion... please don't hurt me! :p

:love:
eMa

[Navaron]

The north had slaves, yet I've never heard anyone piss and moan about the circle 13.

[Fire_Monkey]

Originally posted by afex
your whole arguement is based on the "fact" that the confederate flags can be interpreted a number of ways.

uh, in case you haven't lived on earth for the past ever, ANYTHING can be interpreted an INFINITE number of ways.

i've just decided that your nickname represents the horrors of the destruction of our world's rainforests and the slaying of the innocent creatures who make it their home. it is offensive to me, you have to change it.
Afex if you read my post you would notice that your argument is bogus. I said that the Confederate flag COULD represent violence, and that can be backed up with evidence. (ie. The Civil War) whereas the homosexual flag or as you said, my nick, cannot be backed up with evidence to prove that it hurts you. And neither is universally accepted as a symbol of hate. Ema is right, why should anyone be proud of thier southern heritage when it was slavery, creating dissension throughout the nation, and de-humanizing an entire race? And BTW the North isn't blatantly proud of thier heritage. ( I am from the south, just a note)

[Bighoss]

you know what really offends the hell out of me, chairs. Biggest hate symbol on earth. I also find Cheese offending because I feel that since asian people can't it because they don't take on cow dairy to well that it is offending to them because its almost like we forcing it on them:D

[Fire_Monkey]

The sardonic wit of Bighoss:) we :love: you hoss

[Navaron]

"why should anyone be proud of thier southern heritage when it was slavery,"

Your age is showing.....

Same token then,

No French, German, Brittish, Canadian, Russian, Greek, African, Roman, Japanese, Chinese, Korean,........., people should be proud of their heritage. You're the product of a school system that tells you people in the South talk slow and are stupid hillbillies that want to lynch all blacks. Trust me, ask a black person which kind of racism, southern or northern, is worse, and they'll tell you northern every single time.

[Fire_Monkey]

Racism is universal, one type cannot be worse than another.

[Ludio]

Everyone had slaves, but America was one of the last to ban it, and the south was the main holdout for it. I know that the civil war is about state rights, but it is still associated with slavery, and so the confederate flag is considered offensive.

Here is a comparison, WW2 (In Europe) was about the heavy war reparations placed on Germany by the treaty of versailles, so the nazi flag represents opposition to the unjust treatment of Germany. However anyone who sees a swastika immediately thinks of the Holocaust. This is the same situation as the Confederate flag, it may not be right, but its the way people see it, as a symbol of slavery.

[Bighoss]

the only reason they wanted slavery was not to keep the blacks down and "opressed" it was key to their economy. They didn't have slaves cuz they were racist! Its those evil liberals again who lie to us cuz they think the ends justify the means. It's easier to say The south hated blacks and they wanted to keep them enslaved because the south was evil but none of it is true.

[Fire_Monkey]

you're right, but the slaveholders had to dehumanize the slaves, it doesn't matter if they only needed slavery for the economy. They may not have been intially racist, but having slaves made them racist. It's all relative, and even if they neede slaves for the economy it is irrelevant to the fact that they did dehumanize them. No flames please, I would like a real argument.

[OneManArmy]

why do you think America is one of the richest countries today? Slavery. But that doesn't really matter, as was stated just before me, Almost all civilizations have used slavery, its a fact of human life. The strong conquer the weak etc, etc... Does that make it right? no but lets save that for another topic.

The confederate flag is such a big deal because there is NO JUST CAUSE FOR YOU TO BE FLYING IT WITH PRIDE!! the civil war era is long gone, you are not flying it for your freedom or anyone elses. Whether you like it or not the confederate flag DOES represent some strong and hateful ideas. and exactally what heritage are you holding on to? if you live in the United States of America YOU ARE AMERICAN. one flag, one goverment, one constitution, one president.

[Sputty]

I think there should be two presidents and tehy should turn the white house into a sit com. Gore and Bush as rom-mates...Oh...that'd be funny...And I'm not American. Although I relly think the resistance to taking down the flag is odd

[Lexington_Steele]

The issue here is not whether people should be allowed to fly the flag. Obviously they are allowed to fly any flag they want.

The question is should these flags be flown over government buildings.

How do you feelabout the confederate flag being flown above government buildings? How would you feel if a gay man became governor of your city and decided to fly the rainbow flag over all the government buildings?

[Hamma]

:lol:

[Lonehunter]

I think both flags should fly, but I just want to say that the rebel flag is heritage, not hate.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
Afex if you read my post you would notice that your argument is bogus. I said that the Confederate flag COULD represent violence, and that can be backed up with evidence. (ie. The Civil War) whereas the homosexual flag or as you said, my nick, cannot be backed up with evidence to prove that it hurts you. And neither is universally accepted as a symbol of hate. Ema is right, why should anyone be proud of thier southern heritage when it was slavery, creating dissension throughout the nation, and de-humanizing an entire race? And BTW the North isn't blatantly proud of thier heritage. ( I am from the south, just a note)

i refuse to have this gun fight with you, b/c i see that you forgot to bring any ammo.

evidence? :lol: so now you're telling us that just b/c slavery happened while this flag was flown that the flag COULD represent slavery? with that logic the US flag COULD represent racial killings, priests having sex with kids, or millions of rapes. and damn that offends me, take it down.

i love how southern heritage "is slavery" to you. i guess nothing else happened then? :confused: just b/c you're "from the south" (barely) doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.

your "opinion" is based on ignorance and your age is showing. go to school.

[Sputty]

Again..We need Vulcans to quickly end all debates quickly. DOn't you agree Hamma? Too much hate spreading.

[OneManArmy]

Lonehunter Please tell me how it is heritage? or anyone for that matter. If you have a valid reason, please tell me so I can understand your side of it.

[Fire_Monkey]

Note-Firstly, Sputty this is a civilized debate and I hope that no one takes any of this as a personal assualt.
But, If one wants show their "Southern Pride" why don't they fly the Southern Battle flag, not the confederate flag made afterwards to combat civil rights. Yes thats right, the confederate flag today was only brought to combat the african-american civil rights movement. So Afex and other supporters of being able to fly both flags, if you believe in racism, and supporting it, then go ahead and fly your confederate flag.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by afex
i refuse to have this gun fight with you, b/c i see that you forgot to bring any ammo.

your "opinion" is based on ignorance and your age is showing. go to school.
I don't see insults as adding to your argument. They are for intimidation value. You hope top throw Fire_Monkey off ballance by making him angry.

That pretty much means means you are not interrested in discussing the issue, you are trying to "win" an argument by whatever means necessary.

If "winning" the argument is what is important to you, then by all means flame on.

[Navaron]

"not the confederate flag made afterwards to combat civil rights."

btw that's an urban myth. It's really just not true...


gtg

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
But, If one wants show their "Southern Pride" why don't they fly the Southern Battle flag, not the confederate flag made afterwards to combat civil rights. Yes thats right, the confederate flag today was only brought to combat the african-american civil rights movement. So Afex and other supporters of being able to fly both flags, if you believe in racism, and supporting it, then go ahead and fly your confederate flag.

like i said before, you can't base an argument off of ignorance and half-truths and expect to prove any sort of point to people who know what they are talking about.

[Fire_Monkey]

Half Truths...:lol: your ignorance is amusing, how can you expect to prove any point to me when you are ignorant, and think you're so superior, can't you think, and accept it whjen your wrong or do you have to spit out some kind retort wether or not you believe it. Look, you don't even specify, don't bother debating with me if you won't even back up your points.

[afex]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
I don't see insults as adding to your argument. They are for intimidation value. You hope top throw Fire_Monkey off ballance by making him angry.

That pretty much means means you are not interrested in discussing the issue, you are trying to "win" an argument by whatever means necessary.

If "winning" the argument is what is important to you, then by all means flame on.

selective reading....neat.

people dont put much worth to your posts when you quote 1/4th of mine to prove some sort of point :lol:

and the second thing you quoted is very true, no insults there. so maybe i should say 1/6th?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by afex
selective reading....neat.

people dont put much worth to your posts when you quote 1/4th of mine to prove some sort of point :lol:

and the second thing you quoted is very true, no insults there. so maybe i should say 1/6th?
I was commenting on your propensity to flame so I merely included all pertinent information. I appologise if you wanted me to bog down my post with all kinds of unpertinent information.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
Half Truths...:lol: your ignorance is amusing, how can you expect to prove any point to me when you are ignorant, and think you're so superior, can't you think, and accept it whjen your wrong or do you have to spit out some kind retort wether or not you believe it. Look, you don't even specify, don't bother debating with me if you won't even back up your points.

if you honestly think that the confederate flag as we know it wasn't made until the 50's and 60's, then you are worse off than i imagined.

and now you're saying that i'm not bringing enough points to the argument? have you not read all of your posts in this thread?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by afex
i refuse to have this gun fight with you, b/c i see that you forgot to bring any ammo.

evidence? :lol: so now you're telling us that just b/c slavery happened while this flag was flown that the flag COULD represent slavery? with that logic the US flag COULD represent racial killings, priests having sex with kids, or millions of rapes. and damn that offends me, take it down.

i love how southern heritage "is slavery" to you. i guess nothing else happened then? :confused: just b/c you're "from the south" (barely) doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.

your "opinion" is based on ignorance and your age is showing. go to school.

Originally posted by afex
evidence? :lol: so now you're telling us that just b/c slavery happened while this flag was flown that the flag COULD represent slavery? with that logic the US flag COULD represent racial killings, priests having sex with kids, or millions of rapes. and damn that offends me, take it down.

i love how southern heritage "is slavery" to you. i guess nothing else happened then? :confused: just b/c you're "from the south" (barely) doesn't mean you have any idea what you are talking about.

The first version is identical to the second except it contains a line in the begining and a line at the end that serve no purpose other than flameing.

Is this a better way to point out your flaming to you?

So does the middle portion magically negate the fact that you have a need to flame to make your points?

[Fire_Monkey]

The confederate flag was only shown as a demonstration against civil rights. If you go back before civil rights, there were no confederate flags as a part of any United States flag.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
The confederate flag was only shown as a demonstration against civil rights. If you go back before civil rights, there were no confederate flags as a part of any United States flag.

it used to be it wasn't made till the civil rights movement and now its it wasn't "shown" until the civil rights movement. any other part of your argument you'd like to change?

i couldn't give a shit about whether a state has it as part of their state flag. we're talking about individuals rights to fly the confederate flag. (be it at homes, businesses, on their car, etc)

people have flown the confederate flag since the civil war, not governments.

[Fire_Monkey]

Minor discrepencies in my speech pattern have led you to believe in your superiority once again. If you'll notice all statements are in different relative context and thus make sense. The point is that if you wish to show this "southern pride" then fly the battle flag. Not the flag MODIFIED to combat the Civil Rights, of African-Americans.

[afex]

Originally posted by Lexington_Steele
The first version is identical to the second except it contains a line in the begining and a line at the end that serve no purpose other than flameing.

Is this a better way to point out your flaming to you?

So does the middle portion magically negate the fact that you have a need to flame to make your points?

theres that magic word, "have".

i dont "have" to use witty comments in my posts, i "choose" to. if i needed to flame to make a point, then thats all my posts would be composed of.

......

wait! omg! it totally looked like thats all i said when you quoted me! wow man, you rock at forums!




:rolleyes:

[Fire_Monkey]

Flame Away

[Hamma]

:mad:

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
Minor discrepencies in my speech pattern have led you to believe in your superiority once again. If you'll notice all statements are in different relative context and thus make sense. The point is that if you wish to show this "southern pride" then fly the battle flag. Not the flag MODIFIED to combat the Civil Rights, of African-Americans.

:lol:

you realize how rediculous you sound, right? "discrepencies in my speech pattern", haha. its too bad that makes absolutely no sense with regards to written word. you said what you meant, then changed it when you realized you were wrong.

the point is i should have the right to fly the confederate flag (also known as the confederate battle flag *gasp*) if i want to.

[Fire_Monkey]

Afex, I would begin to listen to your argument if you deceased from flaming me. Since you obviouisly don't want to prove your point you can continue to flame me all you like. Tough skin and all that eh?

[Lonehunter]

When I said it was heritage, not hate, I meant that the confederate flag was not designed for hate. What I mean by hate is racism. The south had slaves. So did the north, but they called them indentured servants. Where they gave them a ride to America in exchange for 5 to 10 years of work. The rebel flag was just that, a flag for rebels who didn't believe in the north's beliefs. They just wanted each state to govern themselves freely and things of that sort. I live in West Virginia. Full of rednecks and rebels. Every time an african-american person sees someone wearing a shirt with the rebel flag on they call that person a cracker and say he hates black people. I know somebody this happened to and his great grand pappy died in the civil war fighting for the south. He was proud of his heritage.

[afex]

Originally posted by Fire_Monkey
Afex, I would begin to listen to your argument if you deceased from flaming me. Since you obviouisly don't want to prove your point you can continue to flame me all you like. Tough skin and all that eh?

i've already proved my point awhile ago that your whole basis of logic in this discussion is based on ignorance. and you help me prove it with every post.

i'm just biding time right now and having fun until you prove me wrong.

[afex]

Originally posted by Lonehunter187
When I said it was heritage, not hate, I meant that the confederate flag was not designed for hate. What I mean by hate is racism. The south had slaves. So did the north, but they called them indentured servants. Where they gave them a ride to America in exchange for 5 to 10 years of work. The rebel flag was just that, a flag for rebels who didn't believe in the north's beliefs. They just wanted each state to govern themselves freely and things of that sort. I live in West Virginia. Full of rednecks and rebels. Every time an african-american person sees someone wearing a shirt with the rebel flag on they call that person a cracker and say he hates black people. I know somebody this happened to and his great grand pappy died in the civil war fighting for the south. He was proud of his heritage.

ding ding ding. :)

thats why the call it the "rebel flag" not the "i hate black people flag"

[Lonehunter]

Thank you afex

[OneManArmy]

ok, now i understand the heritage thing a bit more but I still dont fully get it. do they wear the flag because they want to get rid of our goverment and let each state govern independantly? do they wear the flag because they had a realative fight in the civil war? and if its the civil war thing do they even have proof? hell most of the time I see someone wearing it or displaying it somewhere its cuz they think its "cool" it makes them some sort of "rebel badass".

Ok, lets forget about the whole slavery thing, slaves were everywhere, its just that they were a lot more profitable in the south wehre the plantations were, truth be known there would be just as many slaves up north but you couldn't grow S*** up north like you could in the south back in the day.

if the confederate flag is heritage, isnt that a bit like georgia or similar country displaying the old USSR flag?? The confederacy no longer exsists. In that respects doesnt the confederate flag show disrespect to our current Goverment and flag?

[Fire_Monkey]

I see that we cannot come to an agreement. I am going to cease my posting on this thread but first I'll end with this. If you continue to support displaying the confederate flag, you will be viewed by most people as a close-minded, ignorant, racist; along with me. Make your choice, i have no problem with what you choose to display as long as it does not insight violence, and represent something disusting such as racism. I hope that you will choose to show your southern pride in other ways than that of a symbol known to many as a severe insult.

Best Wishes,

Fire

[Bighoss]

I personally feel we really have no right to critisize the past and other cultures if they believe in racism and slavery. OUR moral values say its wrong but it doesn't mean it is. Nothing is wrong or right but is just viewed by others so once again everything we do and say is meaningless:( DAMNIT I NEED TO STOP DEPRESSING MYSELF

[OneManArmy]

eat cheese... that cheers me up :drools:

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by afex
theres that magic word, "have".

i dont "have" to use witty comments in my posts, i "choose" to. if i needed to flame to make a point, then thats all my posts would be composed of.

......

wait! omg! it totally looked like thats all i said when you quoted me! wow man, you rock at forums!




:rolleyes:

:lol: Were you trying to flame me there? Good effort Afex, I am sure you will do better next time.

[Discordja]

a recent study (i'll find it again if i can) revealed that the US is the 18th more free country in relation to freedom of the press and the individual.

sweden was number 1! ~

[MrVicchio]

Yes, and look who wrote it.

The USA was also ranked down on the Human Rights list a year or so ago.... :rolleyes:

[Bighoss]

Originally posted by OneManArmy
eat cheese... that cheers me up :drools:

cheese is offensive to me because asian people can't digest it very well cuz they are all lactos intolerant and I feel that we want them to eat it so that's racist:D.

its actually a weird adaption that we're naturally not supposed to drink cow milk.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
Yes, and look who wrote it.

The USA was also ranked down on the Human Rights list a year or so ago.... :rolleyes:
I don't see 18th as necessarily a bad thing. There are certain freedoms that are not included on that survey I am sure.

I would bet that regulation on polution equates to a less free society in the survey. So the more environmental protection laws we have, the worse we would do. I am in favor of many rights, but I am not so sure I am in favor of a person's right to ruin the environment.

I am also sure that freedom from pollution would not appear on that survey.

Personally, I love my country and don't want to move anywhere else regardless of what some survey says. (depending on the Patriot Act mk 2) ;) Sweeden can keep their #1 ranking for all that I care.

[MrVicchio]

What the heck was that drivel about?
With Freedom Comes Responsibility. You seem to not appreciate that fact.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by MrVicchio
What the heck was that drivel about?
With Freedom Comes Responsibility. You seem to not appreciate that fact.
I do appreciate the fact that reponsability comes with freedom.

However there is a question that you have yet to satisfactorally answer for me:
What do you do to someone who continually acts irresponsibly with their freedoms, especially when these actions have potent negative effects on other people?

The answer I seem to get from you is to do nothing to that individual. I don't see that as satisfactory.

No offense, but you have no clue as to what I appreciate or don't appreciate.

[Arshune]

Originally posted by Lonehunter187
The south had slaves. So did the north, but they called them indentured servants. Where they gave them a ride to America in exchange for 5 to 10 years of work.
The reason slaves are called slaves is because they have no choice in the matter and are not compensated for their labor in any way. The sum of money for transport to America back then was quite high, not quite worth 5-10 years of labor, but still significant. So an indentured servant is technically compensated labor.

The thing I don't see is this: why would anyone even want to fly the confederate flag in the first place? The South stood against the Union in the Civil War, and the Union is essentially just a word for the United States. They were defeated even though Union commanders made several key mistakes. They based their economy on agriculture and didn't try to modernize. And yes, they supported slavery, which holds that a human being can be considered property. Their flag is not a symbol of hate, however it is a symbol of an inneffective government that was crushed and refolded into the United States long ago. Who can say they want to stand for the same things the confederacy stood for? Yes it's heritage, but not all heritage is something to be proud of. If you have an ancestor who fought in the civil war and want to remember them, why not carry a relic from them (like a war medal or something) around instead of a flag that doesn't even have anything to do with the particular person?

[Navaron]

"The sum of money for transport to America back then was quite high, not quite worth 5-10 years of labor, but still significant. So an indentured servant is technically compensated labor."

That is easily the most flawed argument ever. If you kick my ass, drag me to France, and make me work till I've paid off the thousand dollar ticket, I'm still fucked. I'm pretty damn sure they'd have rather been back at home. "Compensation" or not.

The problem is that we have a lot of people here who are ignorant of the South's beliefs back then. They think that they learned everything about the south in 5th grade. I've seen the this thread become replete with inaccuracies. I'm not gonna try and prove them wrong because even FACTs are refuted by them. It's ''cool" to slam on the south as a bunch of red necked, hillbillies, slurring their words and taggin their sister. It's also apparently "cool" to be completely ignorant of the facts.

If there were no slaves, the war still would have been fought. If you take slavery and sovereign rights out of the equation, I say the wrong side one. We'd all be a lot wealthier, safer, and better off generally. The whole damn war was about states rights, which we no longer have.

[Arshune]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
That is easily the most flawed argument ever. If you kick my ass, drag me to France, and make me work till I've paid off the thousand dollar ticket, I'm still fucked. I'm pretty damn sure they'd have rather been back at home. "Compensation" or not.

Indentured servants signed a contract and willingly came over, they weren't forced to do anything...whether they regretted it later or not isn't my problem, they still got paid. :D

I agree, slavery wasn't really what the civil war was about. Like most problems that are around today, this belief came from the news media (the news media that was around in the civil war I mean). Abolitionist newspapers sensationalized the war and turned it into something it really wasn't. You can even find quotes of Abraham Lincoln saying that he did what he did to preserve the Union, not for anyone's benefit.

We would not be better off if the South won though (if they won and conquered, that is), only a very select few of us would be affluent. That's how it is with any system of civilization that involves money. In fact, we'd probably be a third world country by today's standards because the South HEAVILY favored agriculture over industry. We'd all be farmers and we probably wouldn't even have enough factories to manufacture the kinds of things we use every day (computers, cars, etc.).

[Sputty]

The U.S. is often not as debative as I'd hope. NOt because of any reason other than everything should be challenged with opposing points. No matter what it is. If they weren't, hardly a democracy IMO. Canada, a little too challenged...while at the same time the anti-globaliztion people are the same people in Washington who piss me off., I saw a "documentary"(All "documentaries" aren't impartial. Always just show one side and never the other) on them and they gave no reason why they're against it. It was so annoying. A bunch of modern hippies with no reason other than anti-americanism. This was all on the summits in Quebec. It pissed me off so much. Seriously..WQTFdnkjnfdsfsafd//...That bneing said, I think that in a controlled environment everything should be debated. That being said sometime the US can try to use "patriotism" to explain everything and make politicians afraid to debate. NO real reason to post this other than the fact this talked about human rights and I was thinking of the summit and it turned into this. BTW, I really do hate those pieces of nkfandk....Anyway..the responsibility stuff reminded me of this. Also, some Countries can get too divided and protesty like Canada has gotten. Unluckily, they're all violent protesters and then complain when they're gassed after throwing molotov cocktails at police and charging them. Also, I hate the separatists. WTF..."Economic" reasons...My ass..They jyust drove off all the Enlgish businesses and made their economy worse. Also, terrorism isn't nice..anyway...FUCKCUFCKFUC..Fuck, I always get pissed by "docs"