General Hawley's speech

[Toimu]

USAF 4 Star Speaks Out

For those of you who don't know who General Hawley is, he is a newly-retired 4-star General who commanded the U.S. Air Force Air Combat Command.

He recently delivered this speech, now that he's retired and no longer restricted to being politically correct, at the Air Force Association Annual
Meeting:

"Since the attack, I have seen, heard, and read thoughts of such incredible and surpassing stupidity that they must be addressed. You've heard them too.
Here they are:

1) "We're not good, they're not evil, everything is relative."

Listen carefully: We're good, they're evil, nothing is relative. Say it with me now and free yourselves. You see, folks, saying "We're good" doesn't mean, "We're perfect." Okay? The only perfect being is the bearded guy on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. The plain fact is that our country has, with all our mistakes and blunders, always been and always will be the greatest beacon of freedom, charity, opportunity, and affection in history. If you need proof, open all the borders on Earth and see what happens. In about half a day, the entire world would be a ghost town, and the United States would look like one giant line to see "The Producers.

2) "Violence only leads to more violence."

This one is so stupid you usually have to be the president of an Ivy League university to say it. Here's the truth, which you know in your heads and hearts already: Ineffective, unfocused violence leads to more violence. Limp, panicky, half-measures lead to more violence. However, complete, fully thought-through, professional, well-executed violence never leads to more violence because, you see, afterwards, the other guys are all dead. That's right, dead. Not "on trial," not "reeducated," not "nurtured back into the bosom of love." DEAD. D-E --Well, you get the idea.

3) "The CIA and the rest of our intelligence community has failed us."

For 25 years we have chained our spies like dogs to a stake in the ground, and now that the house has been robbed, we yell at them for not protecting us. Starting in the late seventies, under Carter appointee Stansfield Turner, the giant brains who get these giant ideas decided that the best way to gather international intelligence was to use spy satellites. "After all," they reasoned, "you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate. Unfortunately, we were attacked by humans. Finding humans is not possible with satellites.

You have to use other humans. When we bought all our satellites, we fired all our humans, and here's the really stupid part. It takes years, decades to infiltrate new humans into the worst places of the world. You can't just have a guy who looks like Gary Busey in a Spring Break'93 sweatshirt plop himself down in a coffee shop in Kabul and say "Hiya, boys. Gee, I sure would like to meet that bin Laden fella. "Well, you can, but all you'd be doing is giving the bad guys a story they'll be telling for years.

4) "These people are poor and helpless, and that's why they're angry at us."

Uh-huh, and Jeffrey Dahmer's frozen head collection was just a desperate cry for help. The terrorists and their backers are richer than Elton John and, ironically, a good deal less annoying. The poor helpless people, you see, are the villagers they tortured and murdered to stay in power. Mohammed Atta, one of the evil scumbags who steered those planes into the killing grounds (I'm sorry, one of the "alleged hijackers," according to CNN-they stopped using the word "terrorist," you know), is the son of a Cairo surgeon. But you knew this, too. In the sixties and seventies, all the pinheads marching against the war were upper-middle-class college kids who grabbed any cause they could think of to get out of their final papers and spend more time drinking. At least, that was my excuse. It's the same today. Take the Anti-Global-Warming (or is it World Trade? Oh-who-knows-what-the-hell -they-want demonstrators) They all charged their black outfits and plane tickets on dad's credit card before driving to the airport in their SUV's.

5) "Any profiling is racial profiling."

Who's killing us here, the Norwegians? Just days after the attack, the New York Times had an article saying dozens of extended members of the gazillionaire bin Laden family living in America were afraid of reprisals and left in a huff, never to return to studying at Harvard and using too much Drakkar. I'm crushed. I think we're all crushed. Please come back. With a cherry on top? Why don't they just change their names, anyway? It's happened in the past. Think about it. How many Adolfs do you run into these days? Shortly after that, I remember watching TV with my jaw on the floor as a government official actually said, "That little old grandmother from Sioux City could be carrying something." Okay, how about this: No, she couldn't. It would never be the grandmother from Sioux City. Is it even possible? What are the odds? Winning a hundred Powerball lotteries in a row? A thousand? A million? And now a Secret Service guy has been tossed off a plane and we're all supposed to cry about it because he's an Arab? Didn't it have the tiniest bit to do with the fact that he filled out his forms incorrectly- - three times? And then left an Arab history book on his seat as he strolled off the plane? And came back? Armed? Let's please all stop singing "We Are the World" for a minute and think practically. I don't want to be sitting on the floor in the back of a plane four seconds away from hitting Mt. Rushmore and turn, grinning, to the guy next to me to say, "Well, at least we didn't offend them."

SO HERE'S what I resolve for the New Year: Never to forget our murdered brothers and sisters. Never to let the relativists and bleeding-heart liberals get away with their immoral thinking. After all, no matter what your daughter's political science professor says, we didn't start this. Have you seen that bumper sticker that says, "No More Hiroshimas"? I wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."

[Navaron]

"No More Hiroshimas"? I wish I had one that says, "You First. No More Pearl Harbors."


I'm making that bumpre sticker tonight. That was one of the best speeches I've heard in a while. Apparently, common sense is still around.

[OneManArmy]

damn.. I want that bumper sticker!!!!! do you have a link to where I can find this speach, not that I don't trust you but this is the internet and all. real sources are much appreciated.

[Denali]

"After all," they reasoned, "you can see a license plate from 200 miles away." This is very helpful if you've been attacked by a license plate.


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[KoldFusion]

AMEN! Love that speech. Says everything I tried to say to the morons after 9-11 saying that we brought it on ourselves :)

[Sputty]

Even liberals with common sense(me) should be able to understand that and agree with it. I also hate those protesting idiots. Everything he said is right IMO

[Zatrais]

That guy rocks! Liked that speech :)

[SilentCacophony]

Well excuse my bleeding heart for you guys, but Pearl Harbour was a military base, was it not? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were cities filled with innocent people, were they not? People still suffer from the radiation effects, not to mention the memory, of these two strikes.

U.S. bombed one, and then just 2 days later, they bombed the other. Was this really necessary? They didn't even try to talk to the Japanese. All they had to say was "You see what we have, and if you don't surrender, you're getting another one." I don't know about you, but if I was the Japanese, I would have surrendered. Did the U.S. give them this chance? No, they just dropped the next one. The death toll for those 2 bombs WAY surpasses the death toll of the WTC.

Let me repeat. Pearl Harbour = military installation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki = INNOCENT lives.

[SilentCacophony]

Oh, and as for what that 4 star said about the people in charge of those countries hurting all those innocents, the U.S. put the Taliban in charge. The U.S. got Saddam in charge. The U.S. has put countless "terrorists" in charge of countries. Why are they suddenly going after Iraq and not Osama? Why aren't they going after Korea which poses a more dangerous threat? Bush either wants more oil, or has a vendetta because Saddam tried to have Bush Sr. assassinated, but that's just my 2 cents, and with these oil prices, I can't buy a tank of gas with that.

[Zatrais]

The japanese would never have surrendered, it was not in the mindset of their leaders. They lived by the code of honor, death before surrender, die for the divine emperor etc. Only reason they did surrender was because they witnessed the power of the american arsenal.

An invation of Japan would have ment the loss of more people combined than the 2 bombs... thousands more of american and japenese troopers would die. every city would be in ruin... civilians are always the biggest cassulaty in war.

no i'm not american incase you wondered.

[SilentCacophony]

Like you said, they DID surrender, The surrendered after they saw the might of the bomb. So was the second one really necessary?

Now what I don't understand is how people can praise the bomb being dropped on Japan, and then give Osama hell for what he did to the WTC.

Osama feels he and his people are at war with America. He doesn't have nukes at his disposal, or even any F-18's, tanks, etc. He's got guys riding camels, hiding in caves, and packing guns older than I am. In that case, Osama's attack was pure military genius. He hit the states, and he hit them hard. Who cares if they were innocent people in those towers? They were expendable, collateral damage, and citizens of the country he is at war with. If you think the bombs were right, then you have to agree that Osama was right. I personally don't think he was. Great strike from a military point of view, but wrong. Just like the U.S. nukes were wrong.

[Zatrais]

As for the taliban, the US supplied them whit the weapons they needed to get the russians out of afghanistan.. That was a good thing, pulling out and leaving afghanistan to itself was a mistake.

Iraq is ruled by a president that has gassed his own citisens, he has the tongues ripped out of political oposers. Iraq is among the worst on amnesty internationals cruelty list. People also die every day in Iraq due to hunger, lack of medicines because of the sanctions and because Saddam uses money on the military and illegal projects. You mean that Saddam shouldn't be removed because some civilians will die? Or til a biological weapon is deployed by some mad terrorist in an urban area? Yes there is biological weapons there, Saddam can't even show the inspectors what he has told them he has so it can be destroyed.

As for N.Korea, the guy is lying... hes just a windbag trying to convince the world he can threathen it to do as he wants.

And Japan did not surrender after the first bomb, it took 2. I havn't praised bombing civilians (it was a horrible act), it was a military necisity to get a country that had invaded and controlled almost all of Oceania and was hellbent on more conquest to surrender and stop posing a threat to the countries around it.

You're drawing a parrallell between the actions of a group of people hellbent on the western worlds destruction, and the neccisity of destroying a zealous enemy that the free world was at war whit. Does that mean we should nuke bagdad? hell no, we know better the effects of the afthermath of nuklear weapons and there are other ways whit todays weapons.

Edit: All of Iraq is not the enemy, neither is all of the muslim world. However, all of Japan belived that the emperor was a living god and they would all go to their deaths for him. All of Japan was the enemy in WW2.

[Navaron]

Arrg,

We've had a ton of this "facts" lately from everything from the dixie flag to this A bomb business. If you're gonna make a point, use real facts.

1 "People still suffer from the radiation effects"

Not true.

2 "They didn't even try to talk to the Japanese. All they had to say was "You see what we have, and if you don't surrender, you're getting another one." I don't know about you, but if I was the Japanese, I would have surrendered. Did the U.S. give them this chance? No, they just dropped the next one."

You just proved you do not know history, or at least this aspect of history.

3 "the U.S. put the Taliban in charge"

Nope. We armed the Mujah Hadein. They we're freedom fighters, but still independent men, militia men if you will. The word Taliban came around in the last 10 years, and it just means student.

4 "Why aren't they going after Korea which poses a more dangerous threat?"

A) Korea does not present a larger threat. At the greatest length, out left coast is only partially available as a target. State funded terrorists, like the taliban, are a much more realistic threat.

B) The 3 largest armies over there Russia, China, and Japan have all promised pre emptive attacks.

5 "Bush either wants more oil"

Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to drill in our back yard for it? Why didn't we take it the first time? Do you really think that it would fly if we took over the country and loaded up barges and just shipped all the oil back home for keeps?

6 "Like you said, they DID surrender, The surrendered after they saw the might of the bomb. So was the second one really necessary?"

Perhaps you aced "fuzzy history"?

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Well excuse my bleeding heart for you guys, but Pearl Harbour was a military base, was it not? Hiroshima and Nagasaki were cities filled with innocent people, were they not? People still suffer from the radiation effects, not to mention the memory, of these two strikes.

U.S. bombed one, and then just 2 days later, they bombed the other. Was this really necessary? They didn't even try to talk to the Japanese. All they had to say was "You see what we have, and if you don't surrender, you're getting another one." I don't know about you, but if I was the Japanese, I would have surrendered. Did the U.S. give them this chance? No, they just dropped the next one. The death toll for those 2 bombs WAY surpasses the death toll of the WTC.

Let me repeat. Pearl Harbour = military installation. Hiroshima and Nagasaki = INNOCENT lives.

Every time I read one of your posts it reminds me of the old saying "It's better to be thought a fool then to open your mouth and prove it"

Maybe you'll stop to think who the 'Bad Guys' were in that war before you chastise the U.S. for saving the rest of the world for Japaneese brutality.

In an effort to help you understand this I present the following list of Japaneese Atrocities commited Durring WWII.

NANKING MASSACRE
(December 1937)

Known historically as the 'Rape of Nanking'. In 1937 (the real start of World War 11) the Chinese capital had a population of just over one million, including over 100,000 refugees. On December 13th. the city fell to the invading Japanese troops. For the next six weeks the soldiers indulged in an orgy of indiscriminate killing, rape and looting. They shot at everyone on sight, whether out on the streets or peeking out of windows. The streets were soon littered with corpses, on one street a survivor counted 500 bodies. Girls as young as twelve, and women of all ages were raped by gangs of 15 or 20 soldiers who roamed the town in search of women. Over a thousand men were rounded up and marched to the banks of the Yangtze river where they were machine-gunned to death. Thousands of captured Chinese soldiers were simililary murdered. In the following six weeks, the Nanking Red Cross units alone, buried around 43,000 bodies. About 20,000 women and girls had been raped, most were then murdered. Department stores, shops, churches and houses were set on fire while drunken soldiers indulged in wholesale looting and bayoneting of Chinese civilians for sport. It is estimated that around 200,000 Chinese civilians and soldiers were killed in this, the most infamous atrocity committed by the Japanese army. In charge of the troops during this time was General Iwane Matsui. At the Tokyo War Crimes Trial, Matsui was found guilty of a war crime unrelated to Nanking and sentenced to death. He was hanged in 1948. After the war, China tried about 800 persons for war crimes including those responsible for the Nanking and Shanghai massacres. The death penalty was given to 149 defendants.



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YELLOW RIVER FLOOD
( 1938 )

During the Sino-Japanese war, as Japanese forces moved west towards the railroad junction of Chengchow, there to meet up with other Japanese units advancing on Hankow, the Chinese Nationalists blew up the flood dykes of the Yellow River. The resulting flood inundated three provinces and forty-four counties. Between four and five thousand villages and eleven towns were flooded. A total of 3,911,354 people were displaced. Altogether 893,303 lives were lost through drowning. The Chinese Nationalists blamed this atrocity on the Japanese.



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HONG KONG ATROCITIES
( December 25, 1941 )

The lush island of Hong Kong, thirty-two square miles in area, was formally ceded to Great Britain by the Treaty of Nanking in 1842. Around Christmas, 1941, the peace and tranquillity of this island paradise was shattered when the troops of General Tanaka defeated the gallant soldiers of Britain, Canada, and India, and detachments of various other nationalities. Intoxicated with the spirit of victory, the Japanese troops showed no mercy to their victims. At Eucliff, fifty-three prisoners were shot, bayoneted, some beheaded and their bodies rolled down the cliff. On Christmas morning, around 200 drunken Japanese approached St. Stephen's College, now a sanctuary for ninety-six wounded soldiers. Barring the front door was the head medic, Dr. George Black. 'You can't come in here' he called out, 'this is a hospital'. With deliberate aim, one of the soldiers raised his rifle and shot the doctor through the head. As the drunken mob surged into the hospital ward, the body of Dr Black was repeatedly bayoneted as he lay at the door. In the ward, a massacre of unprecedented ferocity took place. The Japanese ripped the bandages off the wounded patients and plunged their bayonets into the amputated arms and legs before finishing them off with a bullet. In half an hour fifty-six wounded soldiers had been massacred while the nursing staff looked on helplessly. The female nurses were then led away, to a fate one can only imagine. The patients and staff who had survived the slaughter were then forced to carry the bodies and bloodied mattresses to the grounds outside where a huge funeral pyre was prepared and lit from the college desks and cupboards which had been smashed up for firewood. A similar atrocity was enacted at the Jockey Club in Happy Valley and to a lesser extent at various locations throughout the colony. On this day, any misconceptions the world had that Japan was a civilized nation, disappeared into thin air.



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THE LAHA AIRFIELD EXECUTIONS
( February 9, 1943 )

Two graves, about five metres apart, were dug in a wooded area near the Laha airstrip on Ambon Island the defence of which had cost 309 Australian lives. The graves were circular in shape, six metres in diameter and three metres deep. Soon after 6pm, a group of Australian and Dutch prisoners of war, their arms tied securely behind them, were brought to the site. The first prisoner was made to kneel at the edge of the grave and the execution, by samurai beheading, was carried out by a Warrant Officer Kakutaro Sasaki. The next four beheadings were the privilege of eager crew-members of a Japanese mine-sweeper sunk a few days previously by an enemy mine in Ambon Bay. This could only be considered as an act of reprisal for the loss of their ship. As dusk descended, and the beheadings continued, battery torches were used to light up the back of the necks of each successive victim. The same macabre drama was being enacted at the other round grave where men of a Dutch mortar unit were being systematically decapitated. On this unforgettable evening, 55 Australian and 30 Dutch soldiers were murdered. Details of this atrocity came to light during the interrogation of civilian interpreter, Suburo Yoshizaki, who was attached to the Kure No.1 Special Navy Landing Party, at that time stationed on Ambon. A few days later, on February 24, in the same wooded area, another bizarre execution ceremony took place. Around the graves stood about 30 naval personnel who had volunteered for this grisly task, many of them carrying swords which they had borrowed. When some of the young prisoners were dragged to the edge of the grave, shouting desperately and begging for their lives, shouts of jubilation came from those marines witnessing the executions. In this mass murder, which ended at 1.30am the following morning, the headless bodies of 227 Allied prisoners filled the two large graves. Witness to this second massacre was Warrant Officer Keigo Kanamoto, Commanding Officer of the Kure No.1 Repair and Construction Unit.



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PHILIPPINES MASSACRE

A full account of all massacres of Filipinos by Japanese troops would fill several books. In Manila, 800 men women and children were machine-gunned in the grounds of St.Paul's College. In the town of Calamba, 2,500 were shot or bayoneted. Around 100 were bayoneted and shot inside a church at Ponson and 169 villagers of Matina Pangi were rounded up and shot in cold blood. At the War Crimes Trial in Tokyo, document No 2726 consisted of 14,618 pages of sworn affidavits, each describing separate atrocities committed by the invading Japanese troops. The Tribunal listed 72 large scale massacres and 131,028 murders as a bare minimum.

[Unregistered]

Since I can only put 10,000 charecters per post it wall take a few more to cover how horrible the japaneese were to the world.


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THE PARIT SULONG MASSACRE

In January, 1942, a company of Australian and Indian soldiers were captured by the Japanese and interned in a large wooden building at Parit Sulong in Malayasia. Late in the afternoon of January 22, 1942, they were ordered to assemble at the rear of a row of damaged shops nearby. The wounded were carried by those able to walk, the pretext being the promise of medical treatment and food. While waiting at the assembly point, either sitting or lying prone, three machine guns, concealed in the back rooms of the wrecked shops, started their deadly chatter, their concentrated fire chopping flesh and limbs to pieces. A number of prisoners whose bodies showed signs of life, had to be bayoneted. In order to dispose of the bodies, which totalled 161, the row of shops was blown up and the debris bulldozed into a heap on top of which the corpses were placed. Sixty gallons of gasoline was splashed on the bodies and then a flaming torch was thrown on the pile. Just before midnight, the debris of the nine shops had burned into a pile of grey ash two feet high, the 161 bodies totally incinerated. The perpetrator of this foul crime was Lt-Gen.Takuma Nishimura, 62, who later faced trial before an Australian Military Court. Nishimura was previously convicted of massacres in Singapore and sentenced to life imprisonment by a British Military Tribunal on April 2, 1947. After serving four years of his sentence, he was being transferred to Tokyo to serve out the rest of his sentence and while the ship stopped temporarily at Hong Kong he was seized by the Australian military police and taken to Manus Island where his second trial was held. He was found guilty and hanged on June 11, 1951.



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TOL PLANTATION ATROCITY
( Feb. 4, 1942 )

On the morning of 22/23 of January, 1942, Japanese forces, estimated at between seventeen and twenty thousand, landed at Rabaul on the island of New Britain. Defended by 1,396 men of the Australian 2/22 Battalion of the 8th Division, AIF, (Lark Force ) The New Guinea Volunteer Rifles and men of the 2/10 Field Ambulance Unit, they were soon forced to retreat in the hope of escaping via Wide Bay about 90 kilometres south of Rabaul. On the 3rd of February, 1942, Japanese troops landed from five barges on the shore of Henry Reid Bay, an indent on Wide Bay and near the Tol and Waitavalo plantations. They immediately set out to round up all Australian soldiers hiding out in the surrounding jungle. The first ten taken prisoner were immediately bayoneted to death. The others, worn out and hungry by their trek from Rabaul, simply surrendered. Their hands were bound together, their identity discs and other personal items taken off them and then marched into the bush on the Tol Plantation in groups of ten or twelve and there shot or bayoneted in a most cruel fashion. At the nearby plantation at Waitavalo thirty-five prisoners were shot from behind by rifle and machine guns. The Japanese didn't have the decency to bury these men, only to throw a few palm fronds over the bodies. Miraculously, six men survived these killings. When the Australian 2/14th Battalion recaptured the area in April, 1945, they discovered a number of areas littered with the bleached bones of 157 Australian soldiers who had escaped from Rabaul. The Japanese unit responsible for the murders was the 3rd Battalion of the 144th Infantry Regiment commanded by Colonel Masao Kusunose who was tracked down on 17 December, 1946. It was discovered that he had committed suicide by starving himself to death during a nine day fast. In Australia, the official Government report on the massacre was not released until 47 years later, in 1988. (Of the 1,396 men of Lark Force, only about 400 returned home)



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THE CHEKIANG MASSACRES

The Doolittle bombing raid on Tokyo brought a retalliation against the Chinese people that staggers the imagination. On April 18th. 1942, sixteen twin-engined Mitchell B-25 bombers, each carrying one ton of bombs, and led by Lt.Col. Jimmy Doolittle, were launched from the aircraft carrier USS Hornet. Their mission was to bomb the Japanese capital, Tokyo, and then, unable to land back on their carrier, proceed to friendly airfields in China, 1,200 miles across the East China Sea. Some of the planes reached their destination safely but the others ran out of fuel and crashed after their crews had baled out. Sixty four airmen parachuted into the area around Chekiang. Most were given shelter by the Chinese civilians but eight of the Americans were picked up by Japanese patrols and three were shot after a mock trial for 'crimes against humanity'. The Japanese army then conducted a massive search for the others and in the process whole towns and villages that were suspected of harbouring the Americans, were burned to the ground and every man, woman and child brutality murdered. When the Japanese troops moved out of the Chekiang and Kiangsu areas in mid-August, they left behind a scene of devastation and death that is beyond comprehension. Chinese estimates put the death toll at a staggering 250,000. Lt. Col. James Doolittle was later awarded the US Medal Of Honor. (The Chinese Dept. of Defense claims that 1,319,659 Chinese soldiers were killed between 1937 and 1945. It estimates the number of Chinese civilians killed during this period at 35,000,000).



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ATROCITY ON LUZON

While many atrocities were committed on Luzon, this one stands out for its sheer bloody mindedness. Fourteen Filipino resistance fighters surrendered to the Nippon savages after their ammunition was expended. Tied together neck to neck and with hands tied behind their backs, they were marched three miles to their place of execution. Ordered to sit down, another group of prisoners were brought in and forced to dig fourteen holes two feet wide and four and a half feet deep. When the digging finished the fourteen Filipinos, with their neck ropes removed, were forced to jump into the holes while the other group shoveled the earth back into the hole and stamped it down hard until only the head and neck of the victims were visible above ground. Their repugnant duty finished, the grave diggers were then lined up and shot in cold blood. The attention of the Japanese was now focused on the fourteen heads awaiting decapitation. A few soldiers had gone behind some bushes to defecate and after scraping together their excreta on to banana leaves they returned to the buried victims and kneeling down offered each head a last meal. Unable to move, the helpless men could only shake their head from side to side whereupon the Japanese soldiers stuffed the revolting faeces into their mouths amidst peals of laughter from their comrades. After they had their fun, the serious business of execution commenced as an officer drew his sword and with deft strokes separated the fourteen heads from the bodies. No one was ever punished for this foul deed.



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THE TRUK MASSACRE
( February.1944 )

During the American attack on the island of Truk in the Carolines, around 100 women, (most of them 'Comfort Women', those girls forced into prostitution by the Japanese Army) took shelter in a dugout behind the Naval base where they worked. With defeat staring them in the face, the Japanese, fearing that the 'comfort women' would be an encumbrance and an embarrassment, should they fall into American hands, decided to dispose of them. During a lull between arias, three ensigns were sent to the dugout. Armed with machine guns, they approached to find a few women emerging from the pitch-dark interior. They were immediately shot on the spot. Entering the dugout with guns blazing, they fired randomly in the darkness. When the screams of the women had died down and only the moans of the wounded could be heard, the ensigns flicked on their torches to find around seventy bodies, drenched in blood, lying on the floor.

[Unregistered]

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DEATH ON TANOURA BEACH

American airmen shot down during bombing raids on Rabaul, New Britain, were incarcerated in a house, a former tailors shop in Chinatown and now the headquarters of the 6th Field Kempetai under the command of the Japanese Navy. On March 2nd, 1944, the house was demolished in a bombing raid. Fortunately all the prisoners had been transferred to a shelter across the road, prior to the raid. While in the shelter, another seventeen prisoners were brought in bringing the total of sixty-two. (these prisoners were from the 5th, 13th Airforce and the 1st and 2nd Wing Marine Air Corps) Next day the sixty-two men were trucked out to a tunnel like cave at Tanoura, a few miles from Rabaul. Packed together in the narrow cave like sardines, they were allowed two buckets of water each day, but only after the guards had washed their dishes in it. Two days later, twenty names were called out to proceed to waiting lorries. Later, more names were called and the lorries departed. The prisoners were under the command of Warrant Officer Zenichi Wakabayashi. According to evidence given by him at the Rabaul War Crimes Trials the prisoners were told they were being transferred to a camp on Watom Island, a few miles off shore. Assembled in a shelter on Tanoura Beach waiting for sea transport, the prisoners were subjected to a rain of bombs from eight US bombers flying high overhead. A direct hit on the shelter caused the deaths of most of the prisoners, five were seriously wounded and died a short time later. That evening, all thirty-one bodies, or parts of bodies, were cremated in a huge funeral pyre on the beach. Some of the ashes were gathered together and eventually handed over to members of the Australian Army at the end of hostilities. At the War Crimes Trial questions were asked as to why the bodies were cremated when other Allied deaths usually resulted in burial in mass graves. Why was the camp commander on Watom Island, Colonel Kahachi Ogata, never informed that prisoners were about to be transferred from the mainland? Could it be that the thirty one prisoners were deliberately massacred to ease the crowded conditions in the tunnel camp, and to hide their crime, the Japanese had the bodies burned? There is no real evidence to either of these incidents. Were the prisoners massacred or did they really fall victim to 'Friendly Fire'? In 1948, Wakabayashi was again interrogated but maintains he is telling the truth.



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MURDER ON WAKE ISLAND
(Jan. 12, 1943)

The Japanese invasion of Wake Island, a small atoll some 2,000 miles west of Hawaii (area 6.5 sq kms) cost them dearly, 11 naval craft, 29 planes and around 5,700 men killed. The stubborn defence of the island by the tiny garrison of 388 US Marines and 1,200 civilians workers lasted for fourteen heroic days. On December 23, 1941, Major James P.S. Devereux of the 1st. Defence Battalion, US Marine Corps, and Commander Winfield Cunningham of the Naval Air Station, realizing that the odds were hopelessly stacked against them, called for a cease fire, raised the white flag and surrendered the island. The loss of Wake Island left the US with no base between Hawaii and the Philippines. In January, 1942, the US Marines, numbering 1,187, were herded into the cargo holds of the 17,163 ton Japanese luxury liner Nitta Maru, for transportation to Yokohama and then to Shanghai. Those left behind included the civilians and the wounded Marines. A year passed and on the night of January 12, 1943, the Japanese accused the civilians of being in secret radio communication with US naval forces. The 98 American civilians still on Wake were marched to the beach and there lined up with their backs to the ocean and brutally murdered by machine guns. After the war, the Japanese commander on Wake, Rear Admiral Shigematsu Sakaibara, and eleven of his officers, were sentenced to death by a US Naval Court at Kwajalein.



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KOKOPO AND BALLALAE MASSACRES

In November, 1942, six hundred British POWs were marched from their prison at Changi to the docks at Singapore to board a 6,500 ton cargo ship. On the 5th Nov. the ship entered Simpson Harbour at Rabaul, New Britain. The POWs were transferred to Kokopo to start building a new airstrip. Three weeks later, 517 of the prisoners were shipped to a camp on Ballalae Island in the Solomons, there to start work on another airstrip for the Japanese. One prisoner died enroute. The 82 men left behind at Kokopo were very badly treated by their captors. Kicked, beaten, punched, thrashed and clubbed on a daily basis they were soon in a terrible state. Gravely ill with dysentery, malaria and berri-berri, they soon succumbed to death and by the end of February, 1945, only 57 were still alive. By April, only 21 of the original 82 were alive. Some had developed diphtheria scrotum which, because of a vitamin deficiency, causes the testicles to swell to the size of pineapples. Eventually the 21 sick prisoners were transferred to the Watom Island camp where they were made to dig tunnels to be used by the Japanese as air-raid shelters. Soon two more died and on September 6, 1945, when 89,291 Japanese military and civilian men and women surrendered to the Allies, the 18 survivors were freed and boarded the destroyer HMAS Vendetta for a hospital on Lae, then to Australia and then home. The surrender of Japanese forces in Rabaul and surrounding islands was formally signed on board the British aircraft carrier HMS Glory anchored off Rabaul. Meanwhile, on Ballalae Island, the prisoners suffered the same horrendous conditions as those at Kokopo. Sadly, not a single one of the 516 prisoners survived the war. In 1943, after the island was captured by the 3rd New Zealand Division, natives revealed that hundreds of POWs were killed during an Allied bombing raid and when the airstrip was completed at the end of March, 43, the remaining prisoners were lined up and executed by bayonet and sword. In December, 1945, an Australian War Graves unit exhumed 436 bodies from one mass grave and re-interred the remains in the Port Moresby War Cemetery. (For full details of this and other massacres see Peter Stone's "Hostages to Freedom")
A total of 188 War Crimes Trials were held at Rabaul after the war. The courts sentenced 93 Japanese war criminals to death, 78 were hanged and 15 were shot by firing squad.


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THE 'AKIKAZE' EXECUTIONS

(March 18, 1943) The Mitsubishi built destroyer Akikaze (Lt.Cdr.Sabe Tsurukichi) was ordered to sail to Wewak in New Guinea to remove some German residents who were suspected of using radio transmitters to report ship movements to the Americans. Forty civilians were rounded up most of them German clergymen plus a few nuns with two children. About thirty more civilians were picked up when the ship stopped at Manus Island before proceeding to Rabaul. En-route, Captain Tsurukichi received a radio message from the 8th Fleet Headquarters to dispose of all neutrals on board. On the aft deck a wooden scaffold was erected and a sheet hung across the deck to shield the executions from the rest of the prisoners. One by one the victims were led from their cabins, interrogated and blindfolded and taken to the rear of the ship. There, they were hung on the scaffold by the wrists from a rope and pulley and as their feet cleared the deck they were shot by a four man rifle party. Their bodies were then thrown overboard. The two children were taken from the arms of the nuns and thrown into the water. The men were killed first then the women, the whole procedure lasting three hours. At around 10 o'clock in the evening the Akikaze berthed at Rabaul.


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THE PORT BLAIR MASSACRES

March 23, 1942, Japanese forces occupied the British controlled Andaman Islands. They met no resistance from the local population but within hours the 'Sons of Heaven' started an orgy of looting, raping and murder. Unbelievable orgies were perpetrated in the towns and villages with women and young girls forcibly raped and young boys sodomized. In Port, eight high-ranking Indian officials were tortured then buried up to their chests in pits they were forced to dig. Their chests, heads and eyes were then prodded with bayonets after which the pit was sprayed with bullets until the helpless victims were all dead. The Director of Health and President of the Indian Independence League, Diwan Singh, was arrested and nearly 2,000 of his Peace Committee associates incarcerated in the local jail and subjected to the water treatment, electric shocks and other unspeakable forms of torture for eighty two days. Those left alive were then taken out to the country and shot and buried. After the massacre the Japanese resorted to a reign of terror, women were abducted and taken to the officers club to be raped by the officer elite. A shipload of Korean girls was brought in to participate in this 'sport'. During the three and a half years of Japanese occupation, out of the 40,000 population of Port Blair around 30,000 were brutally murdered. The small islands of the Andamans were left a scene of utter devastation. This was Japan's way of helping India get her freedom from the British.

[Unregistered]

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MASSACRE ON ANDAMAN
( August 14, 1945 )

Situated midway between the Bay of Bengal and the Indian Ocean, lie the tranquil Andaman Islands. As the food shortage became acute during the last month of the war, the Japanese occupiers decided to exterminate all those who were no longer useful or employable. All were deprived of their personal possessions and household goods before being embarked on three boats. About two kilometres from the shore of the uninhabited Havelock Island they were forced to jump into the sea and swim to the beach. Most of them, around a hundred, drowned on the way and those who made it were abandoned to die of starvation. The next day, 800 Indian civilians were rounded up and transported to another uninhabited island, Tarmugli. Transferred to the island in small boats, they wandered aimlessly on the beach waiting for further orders. Soon, a detachment of 19 Japanese troops arrived and what followed was one of the most hineous crimes in the annals of the Pacific war. It took the detachment just over an hour to slaughter all but two of the 800 victims by shooting and bayoneting. Next day, August 15, 1945, the day of the Japanese surrender, a burial detail of troops arrived to remove all traces of the massacre. Within twenty-four hours all 798 bodies were collected and burned in funeral pyres until only fragmented bones and ashes remained. The ashes were then buried in deep pits dug on the beach. In a gross miscarriage of justice, the Japanese officer responsible was sentenced to only two years in prison by a British Military Court.



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MASSACRE ON PALAWAN
( Dec. 14, 1944 )

One hundred and fifty American prisoners of war, were incarcerated in a POW enclosure situated on top of the cliffs overlooking the Bay of Puerto Princesa on the island of Palawan in the Philippines. While working on the construction of an airfield they were made to dig three trenches 150ft long and 4ft 6ins deep within the camp. They were told that the trenches were air-raid shelters and practice drills were carried out. The shelters were small and cramped, the prisoners sitting bunched up with their knees under their chins. When an American convoy was sighted heading for Mindoro an air-raid alarm was sounded. The Japanese guards, thinking the island was about to be invaded, herded the prisoners into the covered trenches and then proceeded to pour buckets of petrol into the entrances followed by a lighted torch to ignite the gasoline. As the prisoners stormed the exists, their cloths on fire, they were mown down by light machine-gun fire or bayoneted, shot or clubbed. Dozens managed to get through the barbed wire fence and tumble down the fifty foot high cliff to the water's edge only to be shot at by a Japanese manned landing barge which was patrolling the shore. Only five survived by swimming across the bay and reaching the safety of a Filipino guerrilla camp. One prisoner, who tried to swim the bay, was re-captured and brought back to the beach. There, he suffered the agony of having petrol poured on his foot and set alight. His screams delighted the guards who then deliberately set fire to his other foot while at the same time prodding and stabbing his body with bayonets until he collapsed. His body was then doused with petrol and cremated. His remains, and the bodies of the other dead on the beach, were then buried in the sand. US Forces captured Puerto Princesa on the 28th of February, 1945, and weeks later discovered 79 skeletons within the enclosure. They were given a proper burial by the men of 601 Quartermaster Company of the US Army. In all, 145 Americans had died.

[Unregistered]

THE PIG BASKET ATROCITY

When the Allies capitulated to the Japanese in East Java in 1942, around two hundred Allied soldiers took to the hills around Malang and formed themselves into groups of resistance fighters. Eventually they were rounded up by the Kempetai. The captured soldiers were squeezed into three feet long bamboo pig baskets and transported in open lorries, under a broiling 38 degree sun, to a rail siding and then transferred in open railway goods wagons to the coast. Half dead from thirst and cramp, the captives were carried on board waiting boats which then sailed out to the shark infested waters off the coast of Surabaya. There, the unfortunate prisoners, still enclosed in their bamboo cages, were thrown overboard to the waiting man-eaters. The commander in chief of Japanese forces in Java, General Imamura, was later acquitted of this atrocity in a Netherlands court for lack of evidence. A subsequent Australian Military Court found General Imamura responsible and handed down a sentence of ten years imprisonment.



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THE KALAGON MASSACRE

British paratroopers, operating with the Burmese guerrillas, were the object of a search and destroy mission by the 3rd. Battalion, 215 Regiment of the Japanese 33rd. Division, in June 1945. Believing that the paratroopers were operating with the help of the local inhabitants, the 3rd.Battalion, accompanied by a detachment of the Kempei Tai, surrounded the village of Kalagon near Tenasserim. By 4pm all the inhabitants were rounded up, the men confined in the local mosque, the women and children locked up in adjoining buildings. That evening, eight of the younger women were taken out by the Kempei Tai and brought to their headquarters for the pleasure of their own officers. The next morning, a conference was held and orders given to destroy the village and all the inhabitants to be killed. The massacre began that same morning, the villagers being taken out in batches of five to ten, blindfolded and then bayoneted or shot. Their bodies were then thrown down a number of deep wells around the village and as the wells filled up the bodies were pounded down with bamboo poles to make more space for the next batch of victims. In this way the 3rd. Battalion disposed of around 600 bodies. Two victims who miraculously escaped, were to give evidence at the trial of the battalion commander and thirteen others before a British Military Court held in Burma after the war.



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LOA KULU MASSACRE
( July 30, 1945 )

After surrendering to overwhelming numbers of Japanese troops, around one hundred members of the Netherlands East Indies Army were disarmed and for a while permitted restricted freedom in the town of Samarinda , in Borneo, where most of the soldiers lived with their families. Early on the morning of July 30, all prisoners, including their families, were rounded up and taken before a Japanese officer who summarily sentenced them all to death. No reason was given as they were bundled into lorries and taken to Loa Kulu just outside the town. There they had their hands tied behind their backs and as the men and children watched, the women were systematically cut to pieces with swords and bayonets until they all died. The screaming children were then seized and hurled alive down a 600 foot deep mine shaft. The men captives, forced to kneel and witness the butchery of their wives and children, and suffering the most indescribable mental torture, were then lined up for execution by beheading. When the grisly ritual was over, the bloodied corpses and severed heads of the 144 men were then thrown down the mine shaft on top of their murdered wives and children. The horror of Loa Kulu was discovered by Australian troops who had earlier started a search for the missing Dutch soldiers.



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RETALIATION IN INDONESIA

(1945/46) After the Pacific war ended, Holland made a major effort to regain her lost territories, in the Netherland East Indies (Indonesia). When the Dutch Colonial Army took over the area they found around 2,000 Japanese soldiers still on the island. They had stayed behind to help Indonesia gain her independence in case Japan lost the war. In the first nine days of the reoccupation the Dutch soldiers brutally murdered 236 Japanese soldiers in retaliation for the treatment they (the Dutch) had received in Japanese prisoner-of-war camps. Hundreds who were not killed were interned in slave labour camps in Timor and Java where they tried to recreate the same atmosphere as in the Japanese POW camps. There the Japanese soldiers were tortured and beaten to death when they could no longer work. In a short time the death toll had risen to over 1,000. Those prisoners who survived the retaliation were set free to find their own way back to Japan. Holland and Japan have since exchanged apologies for each other's cruel behavior towards the prisoners in their care.


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THE CHERIBON ATROCITY
(July, 1945)

In the port of Cheribon in northern Java, a Japanese submarine took on board ninety civilian prisoners. All were European and included women and children. As dusk fell on that day in late July, the submarine set sail. It travelled on the surface, the ninety prisoners standing outside on deck. From the top of the conning tower two machine guns, aimed fore and aft, could be plainly seen. Fearing the worst, many of the women started crying but were helpless to do anything. Clinging to each other for stability in the gently rolling sea, the ninety captives waited and prayed. After about an hour the submarine suddenly slowed and dived without warning. The machine guns were never used. Swept off the deck as the ship slid beneath the sea the prisoners faced their worst nightmare. Schools of sharks attacked the screaming mass of humanity as men women and children were torn to pieces in a feeding frenzy. There was only one survivor who, minus an arm and right foot to the sharks, stayed alive long enough to be picked up by three Javanese fishermen. After relating his story he lost consciousness through loss of blood and died from his injuries a short time later. His body was then committed back to the sea, the three fishermen fully aware of their fate should they return to port with the body of an European who was supposed to disappear. After the war this atrocity was reported to the authorities but as all naval files and records of ship movements had been destroyed by the Japanese, the identity of the submarine and its crew was never established.



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THE AIKAWA ATROCITY
(August 2, 1945)

A few miles west of Honshu lies the Island of Sado, Japans fifth largest. On Sado, during WW11, the Japanese built the POW Camp-109, at Aikawa. In the camp were a mixture of British, Australian, Dutch and American servicemen who had been transported to the island for slave labour in the Aikawa Ore Mine owned and operated by the Mitsubishi Corporation. On the morning of the 2nd. of August, an order from the Camp Commandant was given to have all prisoners herded into the deepest part of the mine some 400 feet underground. Unknown to the unsuspecting prisoners, demolition charges had been placed the previous night at depths of 200 and 300 feet. After the guards had hurriedly departed, the mine was blown up at exactly 9.10am, the toiling prisoners left to their fate. As soon as the dust and smoke had settled, every available guard set about dismantling the narrow-gauge railway and depositing the parts inside the entrance to the mine. The guard detail then set off a large demolition charge which caused an avalanche of rock and earth to completely cover the mine entrance. During the next few days, the whole camp complex was demolished and all signs of previous occupancy removed. The 387 Allied prisoners entombed in the mine were never seen again. Lieutenant Yoshiro Tsuda, second in command, later admitted during interrogation, that because of an Imperial Army Extermination Order, that provided for the swift extermination of all POWs should the islands of Japan be threatened by invasion, he had no misgivings whatsoever about the murder of such a large number of prisoners. He was just following superior orders, he said.

[Unregistered]

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THE HOSPITAL MASSACRES

Directly in the path of the invading Japanese hordes lay the Princess Alexandria Hospital in Singapore. Guarded by a detachment of Ghurka troops they were ordered by a Japanese officer to lay down their arms. The Ghurka NCO replied that this was not a military target but a civilian hospital. Angered by their refusal to disarm, the Japanese officer ordered his men to seize and kill two dozen of the Ghurka guards. This order was promptly carried out and the Nippon soldiers then entered the hospital. The wholesale slaughter which followed defies description, sick and dying patients being butchered in their beds. Some were just shot, others clubbed and bayoneted and not a few were beheaded by the sword. A number of the victims were survivors from the Prince of Wales and Repulse. The scene of carnage resembled an abattoir, disemboweled patients sprawled everywhere. Doctors and medical orderlies were then killed as were the nurses who were first raped in a most brutal fashion. A similar atrocity occurred in Manila when the Headquarters of the Filipino Red Cross in General Luna street was captured. Some seventy civilians, sick patients and a number of children were put to death in the same brutal and sadistic way. In Burma, on the afternoon of February 7, 1944 an Advance Field Hospital was overrun by the Japanese who first wiped out the protective guard of West Yorkshires then killed every doctor and medical orderly they could find. The sick and wounded were massacred where they lay after their personal possessions were stolen. In all, thirty-one patients, nine orderlies and four doctors were brutally put to death.


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GENOCIDE IN SINGAPORE

Collectively known as the 'Chinese Massacres', this peaceful city was subjected to acts of savagery, in many cases beyond anything the Nazis had dished out. The soldiers of Nippon had but one thing on their minds in Singapore, to exterminate the entire Chinese population of this great city. Reliable estimates put the final number killed at between nine and twelve thousand. After interrogation by the Kempetai they were obliged to hand over all their personal possessions, rings, watches, jewellery, money etc. before being forced on to captured British lorries and driven to the Tanjong Pagar Wharf where most were were beheaded or bayoneted. Others were roped together and taken on barges out to sea where they were thrown overboard. The slaughter continued for twelve successive days as boats from Singapore Harbour brought even more Chinese civilians to the execution site. In the Geylang district, thousands of Chinese were herded into the grounds of the Teluk Kurau English School. Altogether, 3,600 persons were then interrogated by the Kempetai . In groups of two hundred, they were taken by truck to the crest of a hill off Siglap Road and there they were killed by shooting, beheading or bayoneting. All but one of the Teluk Kurau School victims, perished. In another massacre, seven hundred Chinese were taken to an area just east of Changi and murdered in the most disgusting manner. Their headless bodies were then thrown into already dug mass graves. The victims heads were piled up on the back of a waiting lorry and carted away. Next morning, the sight that greeted the Singaporean was something that they will never forget. Everywhere, mounted on the tips of long bamboo stakes, were the severed heads of murdered Chinese. After the war, a British Military Court sentenced the commanding general of Japanese troops in Singapore, Lt.Gen.Takuma Nishimura, to life imprisonment, but at a later trial for other crimes, an Australian Military Court handed down a death sentence. He was hanged on June 11, 1951.



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THE HANKOW REPRISAL

Every criminal act known to man was inflicted on Chinese civilians by the soldiers of Nippon during their occupation of Manchuria. Indiscriminate killings, beheadings, bayoneting of live victims and the vicious raping of tens of thousands of women and young girls, were the order of the day. Living with this constant terror and barbarity the civilian population could offer but little opposition. However, on August 19, 1945, four days after the surrender, a civilian group managed to capture twenty six Japanese soldiers and executed them near the town of Hankow in north-east China. Four of them were beheaded, four were tied to posts and shot through the back of the head, another four had their arms and legs broken and then crudely amputated, four more were found minus hands and feet and had their genitals stuffed into their mouths. The remaining ten had their eyes gouged out and then bayoneted to death. In this act of reprisal, the past methods of killing by the "Sons of Heaven" had been copied to the letter.



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SAN FERNANDO CEMETERY
( 1944 )

On the 23rd of December, fifteen American prisoners of war, who were too sick to work, were taken from their prison cells and driven to the outskirts of San Fernando, Pampanga, in the Philippines. There, in a small cemetery, a hole fifteen square feet was dug. Guards from the truck then took up positions around the hole. One by one , the POWs were brought to the edge of the hole and ordered to kneel. They were then bayoneted and decapitated. After the war, the guard commander, Lt. Junsabura Toshino, was sentenced to death and hanged.

[Unregistered]

KYUSHU UNIVERSITY ATROCITY

After a bombing mission over southern Japan on May 5, 1945, the crew of a B-29 bomber had to bale out after being rammed by a Japanese suicide plane. The B-29 crashed near the town of Takete. After landing, the crew were taken into custody and transported to Kyushu University in Fukuoka about one hundred miles north of Nagasaki. In the university's anatomy department they were subjected to the most horrible medical experiments imaginable. One prisoner was shot in the stomach so that Japanese surgeons could get practice at removing bullets. Amputations on legs and arms were practiced while the victims were still alive. One was injected with sea water in an experiment to find out if sea water could be substituted for saline solution. One badly wounded American, thinking he was going to be treated for his wound, was anaesthetized and woke up to find that one of his lungs had been removed. He died shortly after. Others had part of the liver removed to see if they could still live. Only one airman, the pilot of the B-29, Captain Marvin Watkins, was taken to Tokyo for interrogation but survived the war. The other eight all died at Fukuoka. After the war, twenty three doctors and hospital staff were arrested, tried and found guilty on various charges by the Allied War Crimes Trials held at Yokohama. Five were sentenced to death, the others to terms of imprisonment. When the Korean war started in June, 1950, General Douglas MacArthur reduced most of the sentences. The death sentences were never carried out. All were released by 1958. This was the only instance where Americans were used in bizarre medical experiments in WW11, except perhaps at Mukden.



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MASSACRE ON THE HIGH SEAS

On quite a number of instances, massacres have taken place at sea. In the Atlantic, on March 13, 1944, the Greek registered freighter SS Peleus was torpedoed and sunk by the U-852 (KL Heinz-Wilhelm Eck) Survivors on the life rafts were machine-gunned while other submarine crew members threw hand grenades into the rafts. Thirty two of the survivors were killed, only three were alive when rescued. Eck and three of his crew were sentenced to death by the War Crimes Court in Hamburg and on November 30, 1945, were shot. On the merchant ship Daisy Moller, 53 of her crew were machine-gunned to death by the crew of the Japanese submarine RO-110 on March 18, 1944, after the submarine had rammed the lifeboats. Only 16 crew members survived. The Nancy Moller, en route from Durban to Colombo, sunk by the I-165 on March 18, 1944. Thirty two of the crew were killed by pistol and machine-gun fire. The SS Ascot sank on February 29, 1944, after being torpedoed by a Japanese submarine in the Indian Ocean. Survivors were machine-gunned on the rafts and in the water. Of the 52 crew who had abandoned ship, only eight survived. The American Liberty ship Jean Nicolet, was torpedoed on July 2, 1944, while en route from Fremantle to Colombo. Her complement of 100 were taken on board the foredeck of the Japanese submarine I-8 and one by one led to the stern of the vessel where they had to run a gauntlet of Japanese sailors who beat them with clubs, iron bars and bayonets before being kicked or pushed into the sea. While squatting on the forward deck waiting their turn, the remaining survivors were washed overboard when the submarine submerged. Of the 100 passengers and crew of the Jean Nicolet only 23 survived to tell the tale. Similar atrocities were perpetrated on the survivors of the tanker British Chivalry (Feb.22, 1944) sunk by the I-37. Survivors in two lifeboats were machine-gunned, killing 20 crewmembers. The Dutch ship Tjisalak (March 26, 1944) torpedoed by the I-8. A total of 98 crew and passengers (including some British subjects) were massacred by sword and spanners used as clubs. The MV Sutley (Feb.26, 1944) and the SS John A Johnson (Oct.29, 1944) both of whose survivors were fired upon while clinging to rafts. The SS Mellore, a British ship en route from Australia to Bombay with general cargo, torpedoed by the I-8 on June 29, 1944. Of the 209 passengers and crew, 79 were killed. During an operation in the Indian Ocean, ships of the Japanese South-West Area Fleet sunk the British motor vessel Behar on 18th March, 1944. Seventy-two of her survivors, including twenty-seven Europeans and forty-five Indians, were taken on board the Japanese cruiser Tone whose captain had received orders to 'dispose of all prisoners'. The prisoners were hit in the stomach with rifle butts or kicked in the testicles and as they lay squirming on the deck, were then beheaded. The American freighter David H. Atwater, sunk by the U-552 (Kptlt. Erich Topp) off the coast of Virginia on April 2, 1942, the crew were machined-gunned as they took to the lifeboats. Only three of the 27 crew survived the massacre. The crew of the German destroyer Erich Giese , sunk during the Battle for Narvik, swimming desperately in the water, were fired upon by British destroyers trying to prevent them reaching shore and joining up with German troops already there.
Savage deeds were committed by all armies and navies during World War 11 but only when committed by Germans or Japanese were they classed as war crimes by the Allies.



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THE MANCHURIAN SLAUGHTER

On August 8, 1945, the USSR declared war on Japan. Having extracted their terrible revenge on Germany, they were now fired by a desire to punish Japan, the second instigator of World War 11. Aided by the Mongolian Peoples Republic Army, they attacked the Japanese Kwantung Army in northern Manchuria. The fighting was ferocious and vengeful, the Nippon soldiers attacking in hordes, arms linked, into a withering fire of machine gun bullets. Many, armed with explosives, threw themselves under the tanks of the advancing Red Army at the same time shouting their Emperors name. The few soldiers who were captured showed no hesitation in committing hara-kiri by exploding hidden grenades and at the same time killing many of their captors. The Soviet and Mongolian soldiers unfortunate enough to be captured by the Japanese, faced a swift and terrible death. Their bodies were mutilated, eyes gouged out and genitals removed before decapitation. The Red Army suffered 8219 killed and over 22,000 wounded. The Kwantung Army lost 7483 killed and around 70,000 wounded. When the northern Kwantung Army laid down its arms and surrendered, Stalin took his revenge. The 640,000 prisoners, including 148 generals, were transported to Siberia and there put to work on forced labour projects. Some 62,000 of these prisoners died while in captivity.



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PINGFAN
( 1945 )

When Russia invaded Manchuria in 1945, the Japanese Government ordered that Pingfan (the Japanese experimental Biological and Germ Warfare Centre in occupied Manchuria) be destroyed. This complex was established by General Shiro Ichii and an Imperial prince and cousin of Emperor Hirohito. The documentation authorizing the building of this establishment, which occupied an area of six square kilometres, carried the Imperial Seal of the Emperor. Prisoners in the holding cells were first killed and all Chinese and Manchurian slave labourers who were forced to work in the complex were then machined-gunned to death. About 600 were killed this way, the bodies of the victims cremated in three large ovens the same way as those used in the Nazi death camps, and their ashes then dumped into the nearby Sungari River. The whole Pingfan complex was then blown up before the Russians arrived. Pingfan had 4,500 flea breeding machines which produced 100 million infected fleas every few days. These fleas, infected with plague, typhoid, cholera and anthrax organisms, were to be dropped on the invasion troops in a last ditch effort to win the war. Most of these plague-infected fleas was purposely released before the complex was destroyed. Northeastern China immediately became a disaster area and at least 30,000 people died over the next three years from plague and other diseases.

[Unregistered]

SANDAKAN DEATH MARCH
( 1945 )

Sandakan, the prison compound in British North Borneo holding 2,434 Australian and British POWs. Captured when Singapore fell, they were transported in a decrepit tramp steamer, the Yubi Maru, to Sandakan to help build a military airstrip for the Japanese. When their labour was no longer required, they were confined to the prison compound where they slowly died from starvation, disease and brutalities. As the Allies approached the islands, over 1,000 prisoners, still alive, were force marched in groups of 50 to another camp in the jungle at Ranau, about 120 miles away. The 291 prisoners, including 288 stretcher cases, who were too sick to march, and left behind at Sandakan, were massacred soon after, many dying after undergoing diabolical torture. In June, 1945, of the 455 prisoners that left Sandakan for Ranau on the first march, only 140 reached Ranau alive, the remainder had died or were shot during the march. Prisoners were shot out of hand, their bodies littering the route. On the second inhumane death march, 536 POWs left Sandakan but only 189 were still alive when they reached their destination, 142 of these were Australians. The third march consisted of 75 prisoners, mostly British, all of whom died. During their short stay at Ranau, six Australians managed to escape, the rest were either shot or died from exhaustion, or illnesses such as malaria, beriberi, and dysentery. Of the six escapees, three died later and only three from the original 2,434 were alive to bear witness at the War Crimes Trials which followed at Rabaul and Tokyo in 1946 in which fourteen Japanese officers, convicted of war crimes in Borneo, were executed. Captain Hoshijima Susumu, the Sandakan prison commandant was found guilty and hanged at Rabaul on April 6, 1946. Altogether, 1,381 Australian prisoners-of-war died at Sandakan in the most heinous atrocity of the Japanese against Australian troops in the entire Pacific war. Of the British prisoners, 641 had died. The 4,000 imported Javanese slave labourers who worked on the airstrip, less than half a dozen were alive at wars end yet their fate is hardly mentioned in history books. Only 25 Australians escaped from Japanese prison camps to come home again to their homeland. These escapes were from Borneo and Ambon. Around the same number escaped but were recaptured and executed. The number of deaths during the Sandakan marches were four times greater than the Americans who died during the Bataan marches.
Today, the Sandakan War Memorial Park, with its two Australian memorials, is beautifully laid out on the former site of the notorious prison camp.



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OPERATION KINGFISHER

The code name for the rescue operation planned to liberate the Australian and British prisoners of war confined at Sandakan. In the planning stage for months under the direction of Australian General Sir Thomas Blamey and the Special Reconnaissance Department (SRD) the operation was bungled from the start owing to ineptitude, incompetence, petty jealousies and lack of decision making. The egosticistical US General Douglas MacArthur (not very popular in Australia) nevertheless gave it his unqualified support, but history has wrongly blamed MacArthur who became the scapegoat for Kingfisher's failure. Blamey stated that aircraft and ships were not available for the rescue operation, that MacArthur needed them for 'other purposes' (no doubt, the proposed invasion of Japan). After thirty years the Kingfisher files were released for public access. They show that the RAAF had a pool of around 40 C-47s in hand and that only 30 were needed for the paratroop assault for which 800 paratroops had trained in the Atherton Tablelands in Queensland (although they were never told for what purpose). After months of planning, the rescue operation never took place and so 2,428 Australian and British POWs...died.
When the war ended, 14,526 Australian POWs were liberated from Japanese prison camps.


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THE BATAAN DEATH MARCH
( April 1942 )

On April 9, 1942, US Major General Edward P. King, commander of the Bataan Garrison on Luzon, formally surrendered his troops to the Japanese invaders commanded by General Homma. After four hard months of combat, the troops were now exhausted, low on ammunition, low on food (most of their meat ration coming from horses, mules, carabao and water buffalo) and many suffering from malaria, dysentery and other diseases. The American and Filipino defenders of Bataan were now in no condition to continue the struggle. It was near the town of Mariveles in the southern tip of the Bataan Peninsula that the infamous Bataan Death March began on April 10, 1942. Each morning, in groups of several hundred, the prisoners were herded on to the main road that led north to Camp O'Donnell their first prison camp. Hungry and thirsty, sick and tired, it was every man for himself, few helped one another. If anyone fell behind he was shot, bayoneted or beheaded and their bodies left in full view of the following column. Between Mariveles and Cabcaben the column of prisoners was shelled by their own guns on Corregidor. A few days and 100 kilometres further on, the first column arrived at San Fernando where they were forced into railroad boxcars. Packed like sardines, suffocating in the summer heat, and those suffering from dysentery defecating on each other, many died 'standing up'. Four hours later they detrained at Capas and were forced to march the remaining ten kilometres to Camp O'Donnell. Around 9,300 Americans survived the Death March, between 600 and 650 died or were killed on the way. The Filipino prisoners, numbering around 45,000 arrived at the camp after completing the March, about five thousand had lost their lives during the March. The first forty days at Camp O'Donnell saw the deaths of around 1,500 more Americans and by the end of July at least another 20,000 Filipinos died. On June 6, 1942, the Filipino prisoners were granted complete amnesty and released. The extremely high death rate, the highest of any POW camp anywhere, compelled the Japanese to move most of the prisoners to another camp at Cabanatuan , north of O'Donnell. It was at Cabanatuan that the Death March survivors met up with their fellow countrymen captured on Corregidor and who fortunately did not participate in the March but had suffered the humiliation of being marched through the main streets of Manila in front of thousands of Filipinos who had been ordered out to watch the procession. After the fighting on Corregidor, some American POWs were forced to do a most distasteful duty. Divided into work parties they were ordered to cut the right hand off every Japanese soldier found dead. Some bodies had been lying in the hot sun for days. The dead bodies were then burned and the hands cremated, the ashes placed in small urns to be returned to their families in Japan.
The striking memorial, built on the site of the Cabanatuan Prisoner of War Camp on Luzon, includes a Wall of Honour on which are inscribed the names of around 3,000 Americans, mostly survivors of the Death March, who died at Cabanatuan.

[Unregistered]

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TOKYO PRISON ATROCITY

Towards the end of the Pacific War, the execution of captured Allied aircrews became almost automatic. Courts-martial were dispensed with on orders from the Military Police Headquarters. In the Tokai Military District, twenty-seven airmen were executed by firing squad, but often, less humane methods were used. In the Japanese Army Prison in Tokyo all the buildings were built of wood and into this prison were crammed 464 Japanese soldiers serving sentences. Also confined in the prison were 62 American airmen who earlier were shot down and captured. During the night of May 25, 1945, Tokyo was heavily bombed by the US Air Force and the prison was hit by incendiaries. In the conflagration which followed, all the 62 airmen were burned to death. A significant factor in this incident was that none of the Japanese prisoners or any of the prison guards suffered a similar fate. The failure of the Japanese to release the 62 flyers could only have been deliberate.



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MUKDEN

About 350 miles from Pingfan (the Germ Warfare Complex in Manchuria) was the prisoner of war camp at Mukden where 1,485 American, British and Australian POWs were sent in November, 1942. The American prisoners arrived in terrible shape via the hell-ship Totori Maru and suffering from all sorts of diseases contacted during their imprisonment at Camp O'Donnell and Cabanatuan. In August, 1942, around 1,500 men from Cabanatuan boarded the Totori Maru and sailed for Pusan in Korea. From Pusan they boarded a train destined for Mukden, Manchuria. There were two camps at Mukden, one at Hoten and the other at Hsien, the later holding the higher ranking Allied prisoners who were to be used as hostages in the event of an Allied invasion of Japan. The prisoners at Hoten were put to work producing parts for Japanese aircraft and tanks at the MKK factory. The deaths incurred here were due to neglect, disease, hunger, Japanese brutality and accidental bombing by US aircraft (which resulted in the killing of over 100 prisoners) By November, 1943, a total of 84 British, 16 Australians and 1,174 US servicemen had perished. It is estimated that around 60,000 prisoners, including Chinese and Manchurian slave labourers, lost their lives at Pingfan and Mukden. Experimental Units 731 and 100 of the Germ Warfare Complex were situated at Pingfan . It was here that Chinese and Manchurian nationals were experimented upon. It is not known exactly how many Allied POWs were subjected to these experiments but their numbers were relatively small. The terrible experiences suffered by prisoners at Pingfan and Mukden, has been, for over forty years, one of the best kept secrets of the Second World War.

I hope that this helps you to understand that despite the stagering loss of life droping a Atomic weapons on Japan cuased, it was only a drop in the bucket when compared to what the **** did to the rest of the world.

They were also given the chance to prevent these attacks. None of the victems mentioned above were given the chance to be spared.

Now you may see why some people get sick when you spout off about how bad we were to the ****.

[Navaron]

Information....overload...

[Unregistered]

Sorry about that, but I was trying to make a point. Anyone that thinks that japan was the victem in WWII is an idiot and needs to be told the truth.

Next thing we'll be hearing about how the Germans were Innocent Victems.

[Navaron]

Or how the French helped *US*win in WW1 and WW2.

[Airlift]

Impreial Japan was about as ruthless and vile as any Empire has ever been without committing actual genocide. Nazi Germany was worse. Stalin's regime is arguably worse still than the Germans. Every imperial power routinely stomped the shit out of anyone who was either there first or tried to come in later. African tribes kept slaves and sold their vanquished foes to white slave traders. Drowning baby girls: China. Female Mutilation: Fundamentalist Islamic States. Ethnic cleansing: Slavic states after the fall of communism. France has a long history of regicide, not to mention the French Iron boot that trampled all over Southeast Asia. We've also committed our share of atrocities, from genocide to an economic system built on slavery to prison camps during WW2.

In my opinion it is fucked for anyone to claim the moral high ground for their nation. It is equally fucked to hand over the moral high ground to your enemies out of guilt. In fact, anyone using the moral high ground is arguing a moot point. Nations of men have all the flaws of man as well as the strong points. They will always try to conceal their own atrocities while capitaizing the acts of others.

[ABRAXAAS]

Except for Canada I dont think weve done any of those things;) :D

[OneManArmy]

navaron I WUB YOU!!! :love: :thumbsup:

oh and seriously.. does anyone have a link to that speech?

[Airlift]

What about the great Canadian Moose & Squirrel massacres?

[ABRAXAAS]

Well there show did suck :D

[SilentCacophony]

Zantrais, Japanese didn't surrender after the first bomb? They weren't even given a chance. U.S. just up and dropped a second one. To say ALL of Japan was the enemy is rather prejudice. I guess you feel it was right to stick the japanese in camps over here then, since no one over here trusted them, even if they'd lived here all their lives. Why is N Korea's leader just an old windbag, while Saddam apparantly poses a threat? N. Korea has the capability to strike over here (though I don't feel like going into a lengthy description of missle systems), while Iraq does not. N. Korea has nuclear capability, Iraq does not.

Navaron, Why didn't they take the oil the first time they were there? Well why did they leave Saddam in power the first time they were there? The man they went after survived, and still runs the country. Do you really think the U.S. didn't kill any innocent civilians, the ones you claim are suffering and are fighting for, with all their bombing? By saying the Americans didn't give the Japanese a chance to surrender, how am I misinformed on history? You merely say I am, but you don't show how I am. Do you think you could be anymore vague in your arguments? Saying I aced "fuzzy history" is just an attempt to insult me and score points, it's not making a valid point. Maybe you should go learn how to debate properly before trying to turn this into a school yard insult fight.

[Unregistered]

Silent, you might want to research facts.

[8/6/45: An atomic bomb was dropped on the people of Hiroshima.]


8/6/45: Excerpt from public statement by President Truman. This was the first time he publicly gave a reason for using the atomic bomb on Japan:

"The Japanese began the war from the air at Pearl Harbor. They have been repaid many fold.

"If they do not now accept our terms they may expect a rain of ruin from the air, the like of which has never been seen on this earth." (Public Papers of the Presidents, Harry S. Truman, 1945, pg. 197, 199).


[8/8/45: Russia declared war on Japan, effective 8/9/45.]

[8/9/45: An atomic bomb was dropped on the people of Nagasaki.]

8/9/45: Excerpt from public statement by President Truman. This was the second time he had publicly given reasons for using the atomic bomb on Japan:

"The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians. But that attack is only a warning of things to come. If Japan does not surrender, bombs will have to be dropped on her war industries and, unfortunately, thousands of civilian lives will be lost.

"Having found the bomb we have used it. We have used it against those who attacked us without warning at Pearl Harbor, against those who have starved and beaten and executed American prisoners of war, against those who have abandoned all pretense of obeying international laws of warfare. We have used it in order to shorten the agony of war, in order to save the lives of thousands and thousands of young Americans.

"We shall continue to use it until we completely destroy Japan's power to make war. Only a Japanese surrender will stop us." (Public Papers of the Presidents, Harry S. Truman, 1945, pg. 212).

[Even before Hiroshima was a-bombed, hundreds of thousands of civilians had been killed in the conventional bombings of over 60 of Japan's largest cities (Michael Sherry, "The Rise of American Air Power", pg. 314-315, and pg. 413, note 43). Was President Truman unaware that Hiroshima was primarily a city of civilians and that they would be the a-bomb's main victims? Note his reason (8/10/45 below) for halting the atomic bombings.]


8/9/45 Letter to Senator Richard Russell:

[In response to Sen. Russell's wish that Japan be hit with more atomic and conventional bombing:]

"I know that Japan is a terribly cruel and uncivilized nation in warfare but I can't bring myself to believe that, because they are beasts, we should ourselves act in the same manner.

"For myself, I certainly regret the necessity of wiping out whole populations because of the 'pigheadedness' of the leaders of a nation and, for your information, I am not going to do it until it is absolutely necessary...

"My object is to save as many American lives as possible but I also have a humane feeling for the women and children in Japan." (Barton Bernstein, Understanding the Atomic Bomb and the Japanese Surrender: Missed Opportunities, Little-Known Near Disasters, and Modern Memory, Diplomatic History, Spring 1995, material quoted from pg. 267-268).


[8/10/45: Japan makes surrender offer to Allies.]


[8/10/45: Having received reports and photographs of the effects of the Hiroshima bomb, Truman ordered a halt to further atomic bombings. Sec. of Commerce Henry Wallace recorded in his diary on the 10th, "Truman said he had given orders to stop atomic bombing. He said the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible. He didn't like the idea of killing, as he said, 'all those kids'." (John Blum, ed., "The Price of Vision: the Diary of Henry A. Wallace, 1942-1946", pg. 473-474).]


8/10/45 Diary Entry:

"Ate lunch at my desk and discussed the *** offer to surrender which came in a couple of hours earlier. They wanted to make a condition precedent to the surrender. Our terms are 'unconditional'. They wanted to keep the Emperor. We told 'em we'd tell 'em how to keep him, but we'd make the terms."


8/11/45 Letter to Samuel McCrea Cavert, general secretary of the Federal Council of Churches:

[In response to Cavert's request, "Respectfully urge that ample opportunity to be given Japan to reconsider ultimatum before any further devastation by atomic bomb is visited upon her people.":]

"Nobody is more disturbed over the use of Atomic bombs than I am but I was greatly disturbed over the unwarranted attack by the Japanese on Pearl Harbor and their murder of our prisoners of war. The only language they seem to understand is the one we have been using to bombard them.

"When you have to deal with a beast you have to treat him as a beast. It is most regrettable but nevertheless true." (Gar Alperovitz, The Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb, material quoted from pg. 563).


[8/11/45: U.S. issued counter-surrender offer for Japan to accept.]


8/11/45 Diary Entry:

"We are all on edge waiting for the **** to answer. Have had a hell of a day."


[8/14/45: Japan accepted the counter-surrender terms.]

[Zatrais]

The bombs where dropped 3 days apart and japan gave no sign of surrendering after the first one. They had plenty of time.

As for locking up japanese in the US, that wasn't exactly the best thing they did. But they're not IN japan, they where not brainwashed from childhood to worship the emperor as a god so whats your point?

And N.Korea does not have the balistic capabilites to reach the US. What they have is an untested missile system that can have the capability to do so... If you look at rocket history theres never been a rocket on such a scale (intercontinental) that works on the first try... somehow i doubt a regime that can't even keep their elevators working will have a intercontinental rocket... Besides don't you think if the threat was real that the US would focus on Nkorea first? Not to mention the fact that Russia, China and Japan stand ready to invade them...

However, Saddam has biological weapons that can kill thousands ready to be deployed or smuggeled out to be used by terrorists.

btw, why do people need more reasons to remove saddam than the fact that hes a mad dictator whit weapons of mass destruction? hell, he kills people every damn day.

[Navaron]

Wow, you haven't been around too long or you wouldn't have challenged me to a factual fight.

"Japanese didn't surrender after the first bomb? They weren't even given a chance. U.S. just up and dropped a second one."

Absolute drivel. This is not only wrong, it's ignorant.

"To say ALL of Japan was the enemy is rather prejudice."

Wrong again, the Japanese people, including women and children had fortified their homes and building, armed themselves and were preparing to wage an house to house campaign.

". Korea has nuclear capability, Iraq does not. "

You'd oughta call the inspectors with that info, cause all of the defecting scientist have said he was months away from having a nuclear weapon. We aren't worried about a missile from Iraq, we are worried about suitcase nukes, like the one's the terrorists he funds and harbors, would like to use so much.

"Why didn't they take the oil the first time they were there? Well why did they leave Saddam in power the first time they were there?"

Even though you won't answer my question, I'll answer yours. A) We weren't after his head. We are after him now because he broke the surrender agreement dozens of times. B) We let him go because he signed a surrender document, that the UN agreed too, and he continues to break his own surrender agreement. Proof you can't trust the Iraqi leadership and that we should/ve kill them.

"Do you really think the U.S. didn't kill any innocent civilians, the ones you claim are suffering and are fighting for, with all their bombing?"

Nope, I'm sure we killed a shitload of the one's he lines his bunkers and barracks with. This is where the phrase lesser of 2 evils comes into play.

"By saying the Americans didn't give the Japanese a chance to surrender, how am I misinformed on history?"

Cause we gave them over 6 chances.

"Maybe you should go learn how to debate properly before trying to turn this into a school yard insult fight."

By "debate properly" I assume you mean make up facts then flame people who don't agree? Nah, I'm pretty sure I got the hang of it my way.

[SilentCacophony]

Unregistered, Nanking

http://www.missouri.edu/~jschool/nanking/Introduction/introduction_02.htm

That's an interview with a proffessor of history at Washington U (attack his credibility Navaron).

"Yes, many journalists at the time were not reporting as eyewitnesses but, rather, reporting from second-hand, third-hand sources. There could be misinformation, exaggeration, or even a tendency toward wartime propaganda. However, that's not enough to dismiss all of them outright.

For example, Timperley's work, as indicated in his preface to his book, the purpose of his book is not to defame the Japanese people. He gave credit to a Japanese journalist, Matsumoto Shigeharu in Shanghai, for sympathizing with what he was doing. So he made a specific point that there were conscientious Japanese. Not all Japanese were the same.

And what he included in the book were mostly reports from the [International] Committee for the [Nanking] Safety Zone. They are, as far as we know, generally credible reports by a third party even though you can look at specific cases. Specifics, yes, they were not on the spot when the rape was perpetrated. But how many rapes were perpetrated in front of a third party? Very few."

As for burning of buildings:

The scorched-earth policy was a politically strategic decision taken by China and it had enormous costs on the Chinese part. But, on the other hand, in some cases, I'm not talking about this case, but [b]in some military situations, a scorched-earth policy may be the only way to stop the enemy. "

The chinese burned a lot of their own buildings and looted their own stores.

On the trials and executions:

"Of course some of them were innocent at least, according to the evidence presented. Some of the materials were not available.

If we look at the trial in Nanjing, how many of those battle records were presented? Almost none. Diaries? Almost none. Even those incriminating evidence was not available. So there were severe limitations in those two trails. "

YELLOW RIVER

You said so yourself "the Chinese Nationalists blew up the flood dykes of the Yellow River.......The Chinese Nationalists blamed this atrocity on the Japanese. "

Sounds like the Chinese did that one to me.

HONG KONG ATROCITIES

So you agree with bombing a country because they're ALL bad, but you don't agree with attacking soldiers, wounded or not? Don't try to over do it on how bad it was either. Americans were known for cutting off the heads of Vietnamese. Richard Marcinko, founder of SEAL Team 6, even spoke in one of his novels (Green Team) of how he once raided a vietnamese village and cut off all the soldiers heads. He then sat them in a circle, placed their heads in their laps and placed a candle in the gaping neck hole. He also spoke of booby trapping bodies, so that if anyone came to move them and bury them, they'd become another statistic themselves.

TWO GRAVES

Prisoners of war cost money to support, and it would be difficult to guard that many prisoners. Not saying it was right, but I can see them doing it. Yet again, at least they were military, and not innocent civilians like Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Phillipines

Don't have time to read up on this, but I probably will later.


So I guess you're saying America has never done things like this. Well I already mentioned the confessions of Richard Marcinko in Vietnam, well have you ever heard of the village of My Lai? Didn't think so. As many as 500 innocents were slaughtered by americans. Old men, women, AND children. Why? Cause they were bored and restless. Here, have some reading.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

[Navaron]

You know you're right, we're heartless baby killing bastards. SO instead of protecting ourselves and our families we'll just sit back and be murdered. I mean, we have killed other innocent people, wtf are we to do anything ever again. I give up, you're just dead set in your little world full of fake facts and marshmallow clouds where everyone but the US has the best of intentions.

[SilentCacophony]

Whoah whoah whoah, so first it's anthrax and biological weapons, and now all of a sudden Saddam has nuke's in suitcases? Funny, I haven't even heard Bush say anything like that.

Hmmm, so Saddam now puts innocent people in his bunkers, and that makes them fair game for American's to hit? rigggghhhhtttt.....

[ABRAXAAS]

Sweet jesus im gettin tired of these threads . There are no bad guys in war, there are no good guys in war there are just people doing what they beleive is the best for there people .

Wether someone thinks its write or wrong its irelavent .:D

[Navaron]

"a sudden Saddam has nuke's in suitcases"

You read the world news too often?

Obviously you do, you're apparently perfect and all knowing.

[Sputty]

There were some things down by the allies but Japan was sadistic, mass murders and graves for soldiers and civilians in WWII. BTW, the Nuclear bombs were necessary..Would you rather millions die in mass bombing campaigns and huge ground attack? Japan was a barbaric empire, simply that. Trying to compare US and other allie problems and then trying to justify how Japan killed prisoners is pretty odd.
Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Hmmm, so Saddam now puts innocent people in his bunkers, and that makes them fair game for American's to hit? rigggghhhhtttt.....
No, but unluckily certain targets are nexessary and he's hoping we think like you do. Hmmm..WWII all over again perhaps? Peace at any price?

[Hamma]

:rolleyes:

I <u>still</u> hate these threads.

[ABRAXAAS]

Yep , and hurry up and go pick my sig already:D

[Sputty]

Yeah, but they give us something to talk about other than sex...and snipers

[ABRAXAAS]

You really dont need more than sex and snipers:D

[Unregistered]

We are not talking about Viet Nam, or the actions of U.S. soldiers in that war, because you will not hear me saying that American Soldiers did not comit War Crimes durring that war.

We are talking about Japan durring WWII, please try and stay on the subject.

Yellow River - was definatly an Atrocity commited by China. I'm still looking for the U.S. fualt in that one.

Your professors opinion hold no water when compared to Eyewitness accounts, and therefore should not be brought into a conversation based on facts.

[Navaron]

It's a good thing tho' cause I'm sure no one would ever say that Washington U. has an ultra liberal (read anti american) bias.

[Incompetent]

I just want to throw my money in with Nav and Unreg, i agree with just about everything they have said in this thread. and Silent, wait until you can grasp a little something called reality before you even think of debating with Nav, he is very, very good at it.

[Navaron]

Thanks Incomp, despite the many times we've been on opposing sides of arguements it never goes below the belt (For the most part, some belts are lower than others - ;)). Hmm. That actually made me smile. Thanks.

[SilentCacophony]

I agree with abbraxus, that there are no bad guys in war, and there are no good guys. War is to be won by any means necessary in my book (it's commandment number 10 in specwar, but I'm not listing those).

Does that make it right though? No. Are you really going to sit there, complaining about me justifying killing soldiers of war, and then turn around and justify nuking civilians to me? You claim ALL Japanese felt their emperor was God, and that they were all dangerous. From this thread, that sounds like how America looks at Bush. That is what is called prejudice though. I mean, ALL Japanese are crazy, and ALL blacks have big lips, right?

Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me if I don't see Saddam as that big of a threat. Excuuuuuuuse me if I don't have a vendetta against him cause he tried to kill my daddy. What really disgusts me is how America always claims everyone needs to disarm except them.

Let me put it this way, and to keep it on topic with the forum, I'll put it in PS terms. If I, a TR, were to come across a NC, and we both had our pistols trained on each other (yes pistols, the game isn't out and we're both only certified for em), and he told me I had to put down mine, would I? Hell no, cause then he's the one with the gun and I just get shot. If I was saddam, and I had weapons, I wouldn't disarm either. He's being told he's going to get attacked, you damn right I'd be hanging onto my self defence.

It's the U.S. that is talking about attacking first. They keep blabbing about a pre-emptive strike (how pre-emptive is a strike when it's been covered on CNN for a year?). If I was Saddam, I'd just attack first if I knew I was going to be attacked anyways. All you've done is corner a rat. Oh, and by the way, pre-emptive strikes aren't sanctioned by the UN. You are only to attack when attacked first. Ain't that a dilly of a pickle.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Unregistered
We are not talking about Viet Nam, or the actions of U.S. soldiers in that war, because you will not hear me saying that American Soldiers did not comit War Crimes durring that war.

Yellow River - was definatly an Atrocity commited by China. I'm still looking for the U.S. fualt in that one.

Your professors opinion hold no water when compared to Eyewitness accounts, and therefore should not be brought into a conversation based on facts.

Might help if you actually read it. There weren't any eye witnesses. All the reports were hearsay by WESTERN reporters. Or are you going to say those who were killed were eye witnesses? Funny how you think your opinion weighs more than that of a proffessor who has written two books on the subject.

As for going off topic, we ARE talking about the actions of the U.S. military in war. We started with the bombing of Japan. So now you try saying Japan was worse (how talking about the chinese was on that topic I don't know). So I switched over to some of the atrocities committed in Vietnam. Since you just got mad that I brought that war up, I'm guessing you feel U.S. was in the wrong there.

[Airlift]

Dropping an atomic bomb is a terrible terrible thing, but I agree that had we not dropped it, we may have never gotten a surrender out of Japan. China has been trying to invade Japan off and on since way before Jesus was born, and they have never succeeded.

Anyway, a shload more "innocent civilians" were killed in the Firebombing of Dresden than in Hiroshima. For those of you who don't know the significance of Dresden, it's principle export were porcelain figurines and its only strategic value was its proximity to the newly formed USSR. Germany was already beaten, and Dresden contributed nothing to their war efforts.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
It's a good thing tho' cause I'm sure no one would ever say that Washington U. has an ultra liberal (read anti american) bias.

*rolls his eyes* Great, so now Washington, your countries capital, is anti-american. That makes a lot of sense. I guess if someone doesn't share your opinion, you just won't acknowledge it.

[Incompetent]

silent, i have not been indoctrinated from the time i was able to speak that bush is god
Excuuuuuuuuuuuse me if I don't see Saddam as that big of a threat. Get some glasses or contacts
What really disgusts me is how America always claims everyone needs to disarm except them. Um, no, we just don't want people who get shits and giggles out of genocide with them.Oh, and by the way, pre-emptive strikes aren't sanctioned by the UN Do you know how many people have died from things that we can' do because of the UN

[ABRAXAAS]

This thread is spiraling outta control:rolleyes:

[SilentCacophony]

Damn airlift, do I finally have an ally :D

So just out of curiousity, how many read my "If your happy and you know it" post from this morning?

[Zatrais]

Please do tell, what makes you think saddam is NOT a threat to the world. I'm sure all of us here would like to know why you put someone whose commited genocide as high as you do.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by Zatrais
Please do tell, what makes you think saddam is NOT a threat to the world. I'm sure all of us here would like to know why you put someone whose commited genocide as high as you do.

Sadam is not a threat , thats like saying a kitten has claws so it can hurt you . Saddam wouldnt attack the US not in a hundred years , but he would be generaly and ass in his home region .

[Incompetent]

Saddam wouldnt attack the US not in a hundred years He would much rather pay someone else

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent

Get some glasses or contacts


This is one of those great arguments that were made earlier that is simply called scoring points, i.e. not actually making a point, but trying to kill the validity of others with petty insults and non-facts. I don't feel like looking up Socrates works on debating though to give you a quote from a man who has more validity on the subject than me.

So if the U.S. is sooooooo concerned for the Iraqi people, why haven't they lifted the embargo on Iraq which is keeping them from receiving medical support. Thousands of children have died or are dying from easily curable diseases, but the U.S. isn't helping them by giving them medicine.

[Navaron]

"Are you really going to sit there, complaining about me justifying killing soldiers of war, and then turn around and justify nuking civilians to me?"

Yes. You were attempting to make the Japanese out to be victims of a relentless warmonger, which was not the case.

"That is what is called prejudice though"

No that's not what's called prejudice. It's called a country composed of religious people who believed their country was divine and their emperor was also. Therefor, yes, they can all be considered combatants (you conviniently left out the part about how the civilians all armed themselves and tore down bridges to fight the oncoming army) Don't change the subject and try and call us prejudice or racist.

"What really disgusts me is how America always claims everyone needs to disarm except them. "

That would be the UN. THEY are the one's who demanded disarmament, and aftre 12 years, they are still bent over the barrel. After the knowledge of state sponsered terrorist being linked to Iraq, that combined with the decade long violation of terms of surrender was very, very good reason to begin looking into unilatteral options.

"If I was saddam, and I had weapons, I wouldn't disarm either."

So don't piss and moan, when you admit that you would hang on to the weapons. WTH are the consequences gonna be? He damn well knows them. It's called paying the piper.

"It's the U.S. that is talking about attacking first."

It's the U.S. that is talking about backing up the A) terms of surrender and B) the UN's wimpy little resolution.

"Oh, and by the way, pre-emptive strikes aren't sanctioned by the UN. You are only to attack when attacked first"

A) I personally hope we get out of the UN.
B) Why do we need countries like Belize, Mexico, or France to tell us when we can defend our selves?
C) The fact that you can't hit until your civilian population has been hit first proves how worthless the UN is.
D) Check the countries opposing the US. The major 2, germany and france both have personal - financial issues, and they both want to rule the EU. Look at how bad they pissed off the other 10 or so members of the who blatently said, we don't agree with them, we are going to support the war on Iraq.

[Zatrais]

Remember WTC ABRAXAAS? Imagen if those same guys had thrown out antrax canisters over new york while they where at it... Bio warfare, courtesy of Saddam.

And do you only think about the US/america? there are millions of people living in the middle east that could die due to saddams weapons.. a kitten whit claws heh, worst anology ever.

[Navaron]

"So if the U.S. is sooooooo concerned for the Iraqi people, why haven't they lifted the embargo on Iraq which is keeping them from receiving medical support. Thousands of children have died or are dying from easily curable diseases, but the U.S. isn't helping them by giving them medicine."

ROFLMFAO!!!!!!!

All hail silent the fact generator. Newsflach buddy, not only do we give them hard cold cash, we are the NUMBER 1 SUPPLIER OF MEDICINE TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

This isn't a flame, so don't take it wrong, but go gather some facts. You're really outta your league here.

[SilentCacophony]

Exactly, that's like arresting me cause I have a foot and I MIGHT kick someone (I've got a past history of it). So tell me, why do you put your faith in a man who can't even spell Iraq?

"Fool me once, shame on.....shame on you. Fool me twice....ashabla you can't fool me again!"

-George Bush

[ABRAXAAS]

Yeah over seas , I personally dont beleive the US has the right to say what goes on over there.

[Incompetent]

So if the U.S. is sooooooo concerned for the Iraqi people, why haven't they lifted the embargo on Iraq which is keeping them from receiving medical support. Thousands of children have died or are dying from easily curable diseases, but the U.S. isn't helping them by giving them medicine. We could always, you know, kill the bastard who is causing it. Thousands of children have died or are dying from easily curable diseases And i doubt we will ever know how many people have died from the nerve gas he tested on them.

Seriously, get your head out of your ass, this man killed hundreds of people to gain power, killed thousands to keep us, and is just generally a bad guy, in the whole, tortures family members and thinks acid torture is cool way. Do you actually think for a second that he would pass up a chance to kill you?

[Sputty]

I agree with everything Nav and that side except I still think the UN can serve a purpose.

[Incompetent]

and what would that be, inflate the some little shit country in europes ego because they can fuck with us?

[ABRAXAAS]

So in the US over the last week Over 100 people have died in bars for stupid reasons , we should start a war on shifty Bar owners :D

[Sputty]

No, peace keeping, setting up aid, a world forum for discussions..

[SilentCacophony]

lol, I think YOU need to pull the american flag off of your eyes navaron. You're not as educated as you try to be.

U.S. Sanctions on food and Medicines

http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/iraq/

Osama and Iraq?

http://www.accuracy.org/press_releases/PR120402.htm


And on the topic of genocide against the Iraqi people, and back to the stuff the **** did to the prisoners of war, have we already forgotten about the graves the U.S. dug, had the Iraqi people get in, then bulldozed the dirt back over them while they were still alive?

[Incompetent]

So in the US over the last week Over 100 people have died in bars for stupid reasons , we should start a war on shifty Bar owners you can't protect people from their own stupidity, but you can at least try to make sure that there aren't to many other things trying to kill them to

[ABRAXAAS]

Actually there should be a war on stupid people :D

[Sputty]

Yep, people have died because they litened to Nav telling them to stick their head in a bucket..tragic..Anyeay...there are alot of stupid people who die really hilariously quite often

[Incompetent]

Nav, mind hunting down that human rights violations report, you know that one that has the stuff about how Saddam keeps proffessional rapists on staff, i lost my copy. k thx

[Navaron]

A) Your first article about the professor in washington, you viciously took out of context. The whole article is about how neither Japan, nor China will agree on what happened.

B) Those kids dying aren't the US's fault. If a meglomaniac would disarm like he agreed too, then there wouldn't be an international embargo would there? I guess the embargo doesn't affect how many palaces or 100,000 dollar watches the Husseins can have. But sure, the US is the bad guy. Whatever makes you feel important.

C)Keep digging, you pull up an article, by two extremist - who broke international law - not US law - international - and try and make your case. You've lost it.

"have we already forgotten about the graves the U.S. dug, had the Iraqi people get in, then bulldozed the dirt back over them while they were still alive?"

I bet good money you believe that too.

[Incompetent]

and remember, Iraqi newsources do not count as credible, since Saddam will torture them if he doesn't like what he hears.

[SilentCacophony]

Have you guys not gone to the link I posted? How can you look at that and still have respect for what your country has done? I'm only half way down and it makes me sick.

http://www.ummah.com/inewsletter/massacres/iraq/

You don't think the U.S. has sanctions on Iraq to keep them from getting food and medicine? I guess you're just not willing to take the stars and stripes blindfold you wear off.

"The father of 2-year-old Nemya grips her death certificate while talking to a doctor moments after she died
from meningitis in a quarantined room at the hospital. A 50-cent tube could have saved the youngster's life,
one doctor says. But the hospital has none. Impossible to obtain under the sanctions, another doctor says. "

"1994-95: Sanctions lead to hardship. Missiles were one half of a two-pronged assault on Iraq. The other was sanctions which, though intended to inspire the Iraqi people to overthrow Saddam, were by widely recognised
to be pushing the country to the brink of famine and, in the words of one Unicef report, producing the "most traumatised child population" the authors had ever encountered."

[SilentCacophony]

UNICEF has reported that
from 1990 to 1999, over 500,000 infants and babies have been killed by the U.S. led sanctions. Many of the young children die from easily curable diseases (giardiasis, disenterry, respiratory infections) but Iraq has not been allowed (because of U.S. objections) to import enough medicines to treat these diseases, nor has Iraq
been allowed to fully repair its water treatment system (intentionally bombed by the U.S. and its allies during
the Gulf War).

Soory, but I don't consider UNICEF to be under Saddam's regime.

[Incompetent]

Please please don't tell me you are stupid enough to believe that medicine would go where it should.

[Zatrais]

What kind of credibility does that webpage have? No one here has even heard of it cept you.

Annyways, you cannot sit there and blame the suffering on iraqi people on the US when theres a dictator controlling the country that forces the sanctions when he won't disarm peacefully.

[Navaron]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/02/uk_human_rights_dossier_on_iraq/pdf/iraq_human_rights.pdf

If that doesn't work, click here --> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2533897.stm#pdf

And scroll to the bottom to read the full thing.

I'm sure silent thinks the UK and amnesty international are biased sources - with their evil "facts'' and all.

[SilentCacophony]

lol, you people are so hypocritical. One second Navaron is claiming the U.S. is the number one supplier of food and medicine to Iraq, and now he's agreeing with me that they don't give them squat, but it's Saddam's fault they aren't getting anything.

One second your talking about how you want to help the people, and that that is why you want to oust Saddam, and then your claiming that you won't help them UNLESS you get him out first.

You try saying it's because he won't disarm, but the funny thing is, all this has been going on since 1990, during the first gulf war. It's nothing new. The embargo has caused the deaths of more people than the nuke at Hiroshima. You guys are SOOOO concerned for the people, and yet you know nothing of what is happening to them, but you do know that Saddam bought a new watch and how much it's worth, cause THAT'S what's important right. So he can know what time it is when you guys ride in to save Iraq? Sorry, but the U.S. is Iraq's real oppressors.

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Nav anyone ever tell you you're sexy when you're sarcastic? :D

[Navaron]

I love how we give oppurtunities, shitloads of money and medicine, and chance after chance, yet when this asshole decides he needs anothe palace or statue instead of helping his countrymen, it's the US's fault. Newsflash Einstein, we didn't fuck those kids up, HE DID.

Fact is you're brainwashed into thinking the US is this horrible force maligning the entire world. I guess that's hip these days. That and guilt for being successful.

[SilentCacophony]

Sure, give me 12 pages to read (24 since it's double-sided), you just want to slow my retorts, don't you? Good thing I don't mind reading.

[Incompetent]

Sorry, but the U.S. is Iraq's real oppressors. yes we executed, what was it, 1/2, 2/3rds of theres ruling body in order to gain power

One second your talking about how you want to help the people, and that that is why you want to oust Saddam, and then your claiming that you won't help them UNLESS you get him out first. more like can't

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
UNICEF has reported that
from 1990 to 1999, over 500,000 infants and babies have been killed by the U.S. led sanctions. Many of the young children die from easily curable diseases (giardiasis, disenterry, respiratory infections) but Iraq has not been allowed (because of U.S. objections) to import enough medicines to treat these diseases, nor has Iraq
been allowed to fully repair its water treatment system (intentionally bombed by the U.S. and its allies during
the Gulf War).

Soory, but I don't consider UNICEF to be under Saddam's regime.

Before I attack the irresponsibility of the UNICEF statement can you tell us where you live? Most of your posts bag on the U.S. like your some sort of Muslem from a Hamburg Masque.

I need that information to help qualify your responces, because it is aperent that the educational system in whatever country you call home is sadly lacking.

Now on to UNICEF......

UNICEF did state "the U.S. led sanctions", when the correct statement is "the UN sanctions" do you see how they twist the statement they made seems to make out the U.S. to be the bad guys when the sacntions are U.N. sactions Unanimously agreed to by the Security Council? Do you even know what those sanctions state?

Do you understand that the U.N. sanctions allow Iraq to trade Oil for food, and medicine but they do not? How is the U.S. to blame for U.N. sanctions? Please I emplore you to get an education.

More proof that the U.S. takes the blame no matter who is really at fualt.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron

I'm sure silent thinks the UK and amnesty international are biased sources - with their evil "facts'' and all.

What bodies?

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0211/sloyan.html

But hey, I guess if it goes against navaron's arguments, he's not going to buy it.

[Incompetent]

ok, that is a little something i like to call a MILITARY ACTION, i.e., if your holding an AK and your shooting at me, your fair game

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
I love how we give oppurtunities, shitloads of money and medicine, and chance after chance, yet when this asshole decides he needs anothe palace or statue instead of helping his countrymen, it's the US's fault. Newsflash Einstein, we didn't fuck those kids up, HE DID.

Fact is you're brainwashed into thinking the US is this horrible force maligning the entire world. I guess that's hip these days. That and guilt for being successful.

No Nav, he doesn't think the U.S. is maligning the world, he asked why we don't go do anything about N. Korea, yet he makes no mention oif the millions that have died there durring the 50 years of Opressive UN sanctions.

He is what people like to refer to as a hypocrite. He wants to blame the U.S. for the deaths of people in one dictators country, but not in another.

Someone check his email and find out if it's "Saddam@IraqiBunker_PleaseGoMessWithKorea_Capitalis tAmericanPigDog.com"

[SilentCacophony]

lol, yes, the U.S. has nothing to do with it. You're hands are completely clean. They are only allowed to trade a certain amount of oil, and the U.S. refuses to trade with them. Nice to know you at least read it, which is probably more than I can say for some people.

As for where I'm from, I'm from Canada. As for education, Canada outranks the U.S., hate to break it to you. Hell, you can't even spell muslim. If you're going to harp on a religon, as well as the education of others, at least learn to spell first.

[Sputty]

So am I. First person to flame Canada gets...fgsnlnfdsa...

[Incompetent]

/me holds off a fearsome barrage against canada for fear of Sputties reprisal

[Navaron]

"One second Navaron is claiming the U.S. is the number one supplier of food and medicine to Iraq, and now he's agreeing with me that they don't give them squat"

WTF are you talking about?

"You guys are SOOOO concerned for the people, and yet you know nothing of what is happening to them, but you do know that Saddam bought a new watch and how much it's worth, cause THAT'S what's important right. So he can know what time it is when you guys ride in to save Iraq? Sorry, but the U.S. is Iraq's real oppressors."

No, see I don't care about saving the Iraqi people all that much. I'm all for these people being safe and living a free and un oppressed life, but I'd rather be safe myself. If we get hussein out of there, then we don't have to worry about either problem now do we? If it was just about these people, then I'd say it's a job for the UN.

[SilentCacophony]

hmmmm, no, the U.S. doesn't manipulate the way the war is seen back home.....

"When a Scud missile eventually hit American troops during the ground war, reporters raced to the scene. The 1,000 pound warhead landed on a makeshift barracks for Pennsylvania national guard troops near the Saudi seaport of Dahran. Scott Applewhite, a photographer for the Associated Press, was one of the first on the scene. There were more than 25 dead bodies and 70 badly wounded. As Applewhite photographed the carnage, he was approached by U.S. Military Police who ordered him to leave. He produced credentials that entitled him to be there. But the soldiers punched Applewhite, handcuffed him and ripped the film from his cameras. More than 70 reporters were arrested, detained, threatened at gunpoint and literally chased from the frontlines when they attempted to defy Pentagon rules. Army public affairs officers made nightly visits to hotels and restaurants in Hafir al Batin, a Saudi town on the Iraq border. Reporters and photographers usually bolted from the dinner table. Slower ones were arrested."

from the site I mentioned last.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
What bodies?

http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0211/sloyan.html

But hey, I guess if it goes against navaron's arguments, he's not going to buy it.

WOW!!

This is a first. Your actually saying something based on fact!!! Unfortunatly you don't understand what you read, and you contridict yourself again.

First: This is pretty much common knowledge, and is concidered a brilliant Military Strategy by pretty much everyone.

Second: In previous posts you have said that Americans were Evil for killing Civillians, Now we are evil for killing Enemy Soldiers, that invaded Kauwit

I am getting confused here.

It's OK for Saddam to Invade other countries and kill civillains. When the U.S. comes to the aid of those other countries we should not kill the invading armies soldiers?

Why is it OK for Saddam to Kill people but not for the U.S.?

[Incompetent]

yes, god forbid they don't want the mangled bodies of their friends on national television, where people like you would dishonor there memory.
edit:dumbass spelling mistake

[Navaron]

LMFAO!!!!!!

You said we buried Iraqis, insinuating that we we're burying citizens, not fucking combatents. The fact they were still shootin as they were buried is funny as shit.

You do realize how irresponsable the American press is? You also realize that we are one of the few countries that allow reporters in actual frontline conflict, not in the war- but in the conflict.

Sure you do. You're perfect.

"and the U.S. refuses to trade with them"

WTF? ? ? Now we have to buy oil from our enemies too? Who made that fucking rule?

"As for where I'm from, I'm from Canada. As for education, Canada outranks the U.S., hate to break it to you."

Well apparently, FACTS are your schools strong suit. Insult us all day, you still got your ass handed to you by a buncha illiterate Americans. Apparently the use of FACTS has been proven to defeat bullheaded socialist arguement's worldwide.

[Unregistered]

I just want to know how well you did in your U.S. History class, since your posts indicate that either A) They don't teach it Canada, or B) you failed it.

[Navaron]

:rofl:

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron

All hail silent the fact generator. Newsflach buddy, not only do we give them hard cold cash, we are the NUMBER 1 SUPPLIER OF MEDICINE TO THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

There, you said they were the #1 supplier. Then you said:

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Those kids dying aren't the US's fault. If a meglomaniac would disarm like he agreed too, then there wouldn't be an international embargo would there?

All of a sudden you're agreeing with me that there's an embargo and that the U.S. DOESN'T give them medicine (don't say you're not, cause that's what the embargo is, which you acknowledged). The fact you said you give them cold hard cash is even more laughable. What would they want with American money when they can't even spend it in america? I guess you just bought Saddam that new watch you're bragging about him having.

That PDF file you sent me starts with Tony Blair's statement (in the table of contents) of him saying the war is with Saddam, not Iraq. So why is there an embargo on Iraq? Why don't you just not give any robutussin to Saddam?

[Navaron]

And you proved that you don't know what you're talking about better than anyone here could have.

We are the number one supplier of medicine. If you had a mild clue about the embargo, you'd know medicine, food and several other essentials for civilian life are not included in the embargo. Don't call me a hypocrite when the real problem is your obvious ignorance.

[ABRAXAAS]

This thread is nearing criticle mass:blowup:

[Incompetent]

you try to embargo a person

[Unregistered]

There has never been a question as to weather or not there are trade sanctions against Iraq. There are, and we are all well aware of them.

What is in question is your understanding of those sanctions.

They specificly do not put any sanctions on the import of Food or Medicine to Iraq. They do however do not allow the Millitary, or Duel use materials to be sent to Iraq.

Now I know it's hard for you to understand, but I doubt the Millitary equipment that Iraq has not been able to import would have prevented even one death from starvation in Iraq. Then again maybe Tank parts are an integral part of the Iraqi diet.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Unregistered

Why is it OK for Saddam to Kill people but not for the U.S.?

Wow, are you really this dumb, or do you just pretend to be? That article was for two parts A) to bring navaron's ignorant attention to the burying of Iraqi soldiers, B) to show you that sure the Japanese may have done it to Austrailian soldiers, but hey, the U.S. did it to Iraqi.

So it's wrong for Japan to dig a hole, and then kill people and put them in, but it's okay for the U.S. to just fill in the hole while the people are still alive?

[Navaron]

or palaces....

[Incompetent]

to bring navaron's ignorant attention to the burying of Iraqi soldiers, but wait, he already knew that, and he was confused because you implied it happened to civilians
B) to show you that sure the Japanese may have done it to Austrailian soldiers, but hey, the U.S. did it to Iraqi. this wasn't exactly systematic torture of people who surrendered, this was a heat of the battle, i'm punching a spearhead through this sand berm so the guy behind doesn't get stuck and bitch slapped by enemy artillery situation.

[Navaron]

"A) to bring navaron's ignorant attention to the burying of Iraqi soldiers"

Listen if all you're gonna do is flame, we're just gonna stop shutting down your arguements. If you'll check, that boot mark on your ass is from where I pointed out that you intentionally have take *2* articles out of context to make your points. I'm certainly not ignorant, in fact, I don't even have to whip up convinient facts.

NEWSFLASH - IN WAR YOU KILL THE OTHER GUY. How you do it doesn't matter, the burying them while they were "fighting" was just stylish. I love that.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Wow, are you really this dumb, or do you just pretend to be? That article was for two parts A) to bring navaron's ignorant attention to the burying of Iraqi soldiers, B) to show you that sure the Japanese may have done it to Austrailian soldiers, but hey, the U.S. did it to Iraqi.

So it's wrong for Japan to dig a hole, and then kill people and put them in, but it's okay for the U.S. to just fill in the hole while the people are still alive?


OK Stupid, let me see if I can make a clear distiction between the two for you.

A) Soldiers that are activly fighting a war and killed are fair game for any country.

B) Prisoners of War are not acceptable targets, acording to the Geniva Convention

C) Your a Moron.

D) There is a HUGE diffrence between digging a hole and then Massacering 1000's of UNARMED POW's and Burring Enemy Combatants that are SHOOTING at you in the hole they dug specificly for the purpose of shooting at you.

[SilentCacophony]

You have to be retarded Navaron, not once did I say they buried innocent civilians. I merely brought up the fact that the U.S. had buried Iraqi soldiers, and I DID say soldiers, go look, since obviously you have the memory of a goldfish. You said I probably actually believe that, and I gave you proof, and now you try to twist it.

Unregistered, do you study Canadian history in the States? Didn't think so. Now "World Issues", that's a whole other subject (literally).

So you still honestly believe that the U.S. is allowed, and does, ship medicine and food to iraq? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you need to pull the american flag off of your eyes. As for "Dual" (I'm not going to mention your spelling error which completely changes what you said, despite your constant attack on my education) purposes, no tank parts aren't an integral part of the Iraqi diet, but then again, I don't think Saddam is going to go sending any bread bombs at the states.

[Navaron]

D) Which is just fucking classic. I love that. Can you hear them

"What the fuck, they're supposed to stop on that line and shoot at us. Hey, that's not a tank. IS that a bulldozer? Saddam was right, the pigdog Americans have no tanks...what the fuck..the bulldozer is still coming...what's it doi..........................................."

[Incompetent]

And on the topic of genocide against the Iraqi people, and back to the stuff the **** did to the prisoners of war, have we already forgotten about the graves the U.S. dug, had the Iraqi people get in, then bulldozed the dirt back over them while they were still alive? please point to the word "soldier"

Edit: Oh yeah, i just noticed you've resorted to spelling/grammer attacks

[Toimu]

I wish I had an "Intelligence buttton" on my screen. I've got one marked "Brightnes", but it's not working.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron


NEWSFLASH - IN WAR YOU KILL THE OTHER GUY. How you do it doesn't matter, the burying them while they were "fighting" was just stylish. I love that.

I agree, but I don't think Unregistered can try claiming the U.S. tactics of war are so nice when they do stuff like this.

So tell me, what do you think of what Osama did? He feels he is at war with the United States. His attack on the WTC was an attack against america. I guess you can't flame him for that.

[Incompetent]

I missed the part where civilians in there offices were fighting

[Unregistered]

I never knew that a few spelling errors constituded a lack of education. I always figured it was due to the fact that I am too lazy to proof read what I post on Internet Forums.

I do however feel that a constantly defending the atrocities of Japan and Iraq, as well as continuing to bring up U.N. Sanctions that you have not read or understand, as well as soley blaming the U.S. for any hardship the Iraqi people may have suffered as a result of those UN sanctions, and lets not forget stating multiple times that the "U.S. did not give Japan a chance to Surrender" despite the fact that there is ample evidence in this thread to the contray shows a difinative lack of education.

Then again you could be a math or sience majio which would also explain your cluelessness about History, and Current Events.

[SilentCacophony]

Yep, I already went back and reread it, lol. Was wondering if any of you would bother. Oh well, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with what I said, just means I forgot that I'd said people instead of soldiers. What I did NOT say though, is civilians, like Navaron misinterpreted.

[Incompetent]

so civilains aren't people

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent
I missed the part where civilians in there offices were fighting

Which brings us back to I forget, were the people in their offices in Hiroshima were fighting.

[Navaron]

"You have to be retarded Navaron, not once did I say they buried innocent civilians"

"I merely brought up the fact that the U.S. had buried Iraqi soldiers, and I DID say soldiers, go look, since obviously you have the memory of a goldfish. "

The Irony here is fucking classic.


"I agree, but I don't think Unregistered can try claiming the U.S. tactics of war are so nice when they do stuff like this."

He's not arguing that we don't kill them however we can as fast as we can, he's arguing that we don't commit attrocities against civilians.

[Incompetent]

Which brings us back to I forget, were the people in their offices in Hiroshima were fighting. yes, japanese cities were basically giant war factories full of brainwashed people who would die in the hundreds to kill one american soldier

[Navaron]

Silent walks by...

/must....grab....straws..

It was in my history class (we have those here in the US, you really need to look into them). More specifically it was a world war history class.


I think we're done here guys. It's lost it's fun.


edit: you want me to repost that Goldfishy?

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent
so civilains aren't people

So soldiers aren't people?

Like I said, I'd already reread it and had seen how he could misinterpret it, but it doesn't make what I said wrong, now does it? They still buried Iraqi people alive.

[Incompetent]

damn, to slow on the typing

[Navaron]

The point is that is the second example of you deliberately distorting facts to back up your nonexistant arguement.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron


The Irony here is fucking classic.

He's not arguing that we don't kill them however we can as fast as we can, he's arguing that we don't commit attrocities against civilians.

Apparantly you have forgotten that Hiroshima WAS CIVILIANS. I've also come to the conclusion that you never read up on "My Lai".
I posted a site for that atrocity as well:

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/Myl_intro.html

So don't go trying to claim the U.S. hands are clean.

As for irony, there's nothing Ironic about it. I didn't say innocent civilians, as you seemed to have interpreted what I said. I said Iraqi people, and sorry, but I still consider people in the military, to be people.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
I agree, but I don't think Unregistered can try claiming the U.S. tactics of war are so nice when they do stuff like this.

So tell me, what do you think of what Osama did? He feels he is at war with the United States. His attack on the WTC was an attack against america. I guess you can't flame him for that.

Well I can see how this is going to work out......

Me: If America launched an unprovoked attack against 1000's of defensless citizens I would condem the action.

TrollBoy: LOL! That's what America did do Japan!!

Me: Yes, and No. The situation in Japan was slightly diffrent. That move came at the end of 3 years of brutal conflict that if it had continued would have claimed the loves of Millions more. While it was unfortunate that civillians died in that situation, I beleave it was a necessary evil. "The good of the many out weighs the needs of the few". The number of lives saved by this action greatly out numbers the lives lost.

What Osama did was an act of senceless violence, that ultimatley dooms his entire cuase. I understand that he feels he is at war with the U.S. but there is absolutly no justification for what he did. He did not do this in an effort to end his war with the U.S. he did it to Murder our Citizens.

Had he slammed those planes into just the Pentagon, and White House or Capitol building I might beleave that his motives were anything other then murdering Americans.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent
yes, japanese cities were basically giant war factories full of brainwashed people who would die in the hundreds to kill one american soldier

Lol, oh yes, all the people in Japan were brainwashed, I forgot. I've seen so many documentaries about how the civilians were swimming across the ocean just to kill americans. I bet if Japan had been in the States, they'd all rush to kill a *** too.

[Sputty]

Exactly, We should all lsiten to Spock more.
"The good of the many out weighs the needs of the few".

[Incompetent]

Apparantly you have forgotten that Hiroshima WAS CIVILIANS. Apparently your forgetting there was no such thing as a civilian in japan at the time, they were ALL going to fight and die in the even of an invasion, those bombs saved the lives of millions of americans and japanese, or do we need a basic lesson in "scare the shit out of the other guy" And i don't give a shit about he odd 1 out of 1000 guys who wouldn't fight, his "friends" would have killed him for it.

edit: someone is edging his way to the top of my"stupidiest person alive" list

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
The point is that is the second example of you deliberately distorting facts to back up your nonexistant arguement.

Non-existent? They DID bury Iraqi people, did they not? You misinterpreted what I said, and that's understandable. I didn't distort any facts though.

As for the Statement about the proffessor, I quoted what he said. Quotes are always taken out of context. What he said was the Japanese and the Chinese stories didn't match up. So who are you to believe? There are always at least two sides to a story.

[Denali]

Ok, you really want to know what you jackballs are forgetting?! To spread the :love: Cut it out and go :love: somebody.

[Incompetent]

People is a general statement dumbfuck, it was thier purposely to be misinterpreted, if you meant soldiers say soldiers, and don't say it like we forced them to dig their own grave.

edit: I'll spread the <3 to Nav and Unreg then

<3 Nav and Unreg

[Navaron]

"As for irony, there's nothing Ironic about it"

Well fish boy, apparently you've been one upped again by those dumb Americans. I was reffering to the 2 qoutes of yours where you attempted to insult me, but ended up making an even larger jack ass out of yourself. I see you cropped it nice to take those words out of context. When you can't think up facts, is the next step to alter context? I can remember it's been so long since my weasiling 101 class.

[Sputty]

That's what I thought he was saying too.
People is a general statement dumbfuck, it was thier purposely to be misinterpreted, if you meant soldiers say soldiers, and don't say it like we forced them to dig their own grave.

[SilentCacophony]

Hate to break it to you Unregisteres, but the WTC wasn't a hotel. It WAS a strategic attack. It's not like the WTC was just a place for innocent civilians to hang out. It was a pair of government buildings. He attacked the governemnt. The civilians inside were colatteral damage (and hey, taking out a few of your oppositions citizens is always a bonus).

As for "trollboy", gee, good one. Did you come up with that by yourself or did your mom come and help you out?

[Navaron]

It's apparent to everyone here that you are simply distorting quotes to support your arguement.

Just like this:
"Non-existent? They DID bury Iraqi people, did they not?"

You know good and well I'm referring to your entire arguement (or lack thereof).

I've seen your type many a time, show up full and hatred and emotion based opinions, get shut down by facts, and then retreat to "that's not what I meant".

Gentlemen, I am done here. You can only hand someone their ass so many times before your fingers start to smell.

[Saint]

S-putty = Wanksta :rofl:

[Incompetent]

As for "trollboy", gee, good one. Did you come up with that by yourself or did your mom come and help you out? No, its a fairly standard internet term
Hate to break it to you Unregisteres, but the WTC wasn't a hotel. actually, i think one of them did have a hotel in itHe attacked the governemnt. The civilians inside were colatteral damage So why didn't he attack them at midnight when they were mostly deserted, if he is such a damnably good guy

[Navaron]

Sorry, I can't pass this up.

"Hate to break it to you Unregisteres, but the WTC wasn't a hotel. It WAS a strategic attack. It's not like the WTC was just a place for innocent civilians to hang out. It was a pair of government buildings. He attacked the governemnt. The civilians inside were colatteral damage (and hey, taking out a few of your oppositions citizens is always a bonus)."

The true sign of a moron is when they just keep on diggin. I'm not even gonna point out the errors or hypocracy lacing that statement like cyanide.

[ABRAXAAS]

STOP THE MADNESS !! this thread is going down the tubes:(

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
"As for irony, there's nothing Ironic about it"

Well fish boy, apparently you've been one upped again by those dumb Americans. I was reffering to the 2 qoutes of yours where you attempted to insult me, but ended up making an even larger jack ass out of yourself. I see you cropped it nice to take those words out of context. When you can't think up facts, is the next step to alter context? I can remember it's been so long since my weasiling 101 class.

Gee, excuse me for assuming you had enough intelligence to remember what you quoted me as saying. I merely trimmed it because I didn't think it was necessary to double the length of my post, since this thing is already 10 pages long. As for my two quotes, #1 "Not once did I say innocent civilians." Well, did I? Didn't think so. As for # 2, I thought I had said soldiers, which I did not. If I were to speak about Americans being killed overseas, I'd say americans were killed. So would you have been dreadfully confused if I had just said iraqis (or is it IraqiEs?, I don't know, so I said Iraqi people)? Next time I'll hire a clarica agent so you can understand better.

[Incompetent]

/me starts to throw in the towel, wraps the towel around a brick, then throws it as hard as he can at Silent hoping to knock his brain out of the "fucking idiot" setting and walks away

[Navaron]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Hate to break it to you Unregisteres, but the WTC wasn't a hotel. It WAS a strategic attack. It's not like the WTC was just a place for innocent civilians to hang out. It was a pair of government buildings. He attacked the governemnt. The civilians inside were colatteral damage (and hey, taking out a few of your oppositions citizens is always a bonus).

As for "trollboy", gee, good one. Did you come up with that by yourself or did your mom come and help you out?

Never in my lafe has someone on the internet made me want to slap the piss out of them the way you just did.

What is your big hatred of America?

Why is it that you go to all lenghts to justify the brutal murder of POW's and Citezens by America's enemies, and condem every action the Americans have ever taken?

That's all I want to know. What is it that makes the Land of the Free the bad guy in your mind where the worlds worst regiens are held in such high esteem?

Was your daddy a ****** hippe draft dogger, that ran to Canada in the 60's and has perverted your sence of right vs wrong?

Are you a Radical Muslim Terrorist trained from birth to hate ****, and Christians?

Seriously, what's wrong with you that you lay blame on the most giving nation on the world and side with the most opressive? Other then dilibrate trolling of blatent stupidity I can't comprehend any other explanations.

What is it that makes you hate the U.S.?

[SilentCacophony]

Because A) there were no flights to NY at that time and B) what significance does "912" have?

"And in case of an emergency, don't dial 911, here's the real number" *hands homer a card marked "912"*
-Lenny (simpsons)

I never said he was a nice guy, I said it was a good attack. I don't agree with the nuke's being dropped, but it was a good attack. I don't agree with burying people alive, but it was a good attack.

As for shutting me down, you haven't shut me down at all. I still don't believe there is a justified reason for attacking Iraq, nor have you shown me one. As far as world opinion goes, it seems the world is with me. Since you guys are so dead set against ousting Saddam, why don't you go throw a couple of shotguns into the back of your pick-up and go get him?

[Navaron]

Fishy,

"Gee, excuse me for assuming you had enough intelligence to remember what you quoted me as saying"

I don't think *MY* intelligence is what's in question here.

/ leaves debate for good


PS: This guy is a hoot, I'm still laughing

[Sputty]

DAmnit. You missed incompetent

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent
/me starts to throw in the towel, wraps the towel around a brick, then throws it as hard as he can at Silent hoping to knock his brain out of the "fucking idiot" setting and walks away

Gee, an American resorting to violence, never would have seen that one coming.

[Incompetent]

As for shutting me down, you haven't shut me down at all. Thats because your like a hoard of Orcs, you can slaughter them all day long but they just keep coming, and they seem to get even dumber later on

no, i hit, you can see the blood spatter for christ sake, maybe if i hit harder, or maybe i could use VX nerve gas like his idle

[Sputty]

Wow, that was a stupid useless flame that had no point...Gee, an American resorting to violence, never would have seen that one coming.

[SilentCacophony]

Oh yes, America is the best country in the world, how could I ever have anything against them. America is just full of ignorant stupid people who are blind to the truth and run around like sheep.

As for a draft dodger, sorry, but unlike your pussy family, my family has a history of having served in the war. Both world wars.

What I REALLY don't understand, is why the hell is America whining so much? They kept saying they were going to attack whether the UN gave the thumbs up on it or not. So why all this talk about a pre-emptive strike and not doing anything? How pre-emptive is a strike when it is broadcast on CNN 24/7? If you're going to attack, attack. Quit trying to worry bout the rest of the world and do it.

Speaking of pussies, you three are for this war apparantly, yet your sitting here in a forum arguing about it. If you think this war is a good thing, STFU and go sign up. Do your country proud, and quit worrying bout everyone else.

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Because A) there were no flights to NY at that time and B) what significance does "912" have?

"And in case of an emergency, don't dial 911, here's the real number" *hands homer a card marked "912"*
-Lenny (simpsons)

I never said he was a nice guy, I said it was a good attack. I don't agree with the nuke's being dropped, but it was a good attack. I don't agree with burying people alive, but it was a good attack.

As for shutting me down, you haven't shut me down at all. I still don't believe there is a justified reason for attacking Iraq, nor have you shown me one. As far as world opinion goes, it seems the world is with me. Since you guys are so dead set against ousting Saddam, why don't you go throw a couple of shotguns into the back of your pick-up and go get him?

Does anyone else find it disturbing that when asked why he hates America he quotes the Simpsons?

*coo coo* *coo coo*

Opps there's the clock. Time to go home.

One last thing though.....

By the statement "As far as world opinion goes, it seems the world is with me." did you mane France, and Germany? Last I checked The UK, Spain, Isreal, Poland, Estonia, Lituwena, Chec Republic, and all those other little former Soviet republics I'm forgetting about were also part of "The rest of the world" and they are certianly not "with you".

Once again you show us how truley stupid you are.

Your French Canadian aren't you? That would explain everything.

[SilentCacophony]

Ahhh yes, VX gas like my idol. Oh wait, doesn't the U.S. have VX gas? Sure they do, but we can trust them not to use weapons of mass destruction, right Japan?

[ABRAXAAS]

Ok everyones flamin this guy and now he's resorting to less than inteligent methods ist not his fault ist a natural human reaction lets just leave this thread alone its pointless and spread some love:love: :love: :love: :D

[Incompetent]

If you think this war is a good thing, STFU and go sign up. Do your country proud, and quit worrying bout everyone else. 1 year and 10 months, fuckwit. Oh wait, doesn't the U.S. have VX gas? Sure they do, but we can trust them not to use weapons of mass destruction, right Japan? would you prefer if we tested out on canade like saddam tested his out on Iran?

[Sputty]

I'm Canadian, I'm underage(I think) and I wouldn't pass the physical

[Unregistered]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Oh yes, America is the best country in the world, how could I ever have anything against them. America is just full of ignorant stupid people who are blind to the truth and run around like sheep.

As for a draft dodger, sorry, but unlike your pussy family, my family has a history of having served in the war. Both world wars.

What I REALLY don't understand, is why the hell is America whining so much? They kept saying they were going to attack whether the UN gave the thumbs up on it or not. So why all this talk about a pre-emptive strike and not doing anything? How pre-emptive is a strike when it is broadcast on CNN 24/7? If you're going to attack, attack. Quit trying to worry bout the rest of the world and do it.

Speaking of pussies, you three are for this war apparantly, yet your sitting here in a forum arguing about it. If you think this war is a good thing, STFU and go sign up. Do your country proud, and quit worrying bout everyone else.

You really are a piece of work.

I didn't call you daddy a draft doging ******, I only asked if he was. If your not going to grant the rest of us the same courtsey then I think you need to shut the fuck up.

[SilentCacophony]

No, I quoted the simpsons in response to incompetent's (maybe you two should switch names) post. He said Osama should have attacked at midnight if he only wanted to cripple America. If he'd attack at midnight, it would have been September 12, 9/12. Significance of 911, was our emergency #. Thus, I related it to the Simpsons in an effort to bring a little humour into your sad, miserable little life. I guess I failed. Oh well, you can live your life of misery, I still have the ability to laugh. I'm not going to let the bonehead government below me dampen my day.

As for the world's support, I guess the 100, 000+ protesting in NY are with bush. Not to mention the Million+ in Rome, or the 500, 000+ in Britain. Not to mention the millions of other's protesting.

But hey, like I said, you're so patriotic and all for this war, why haven't you enlisted yet?

[Unregistered]

Just one quick question......

How do you feel about the bible?

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Because A) there were no flights to NY at that time and B) what significance does "912" have?Lets see, they were hijackers, they don't need a flight to that city you moron. They could have grabed a flight to any city as far away as NY was and just headed that way. They didn't. Their purpose was to TERRORIZE the citizens of the USA.

I don't know why you seem to like the view of the inside of your small intestine, but try looking at something else for once.

People like you realy know how to top off a shitty day. My only solace is that you are mortal(you are, aren't you?:scared: ).

[Incompetent]

But hey, like I said, you're so patriotic and all for this war, why haven't you enlisted yet? take a wild fucking guess at what that number i posted was

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Just one quick question......

How do you feel about the bible?

OMG!!! dont go there :mad:

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Originally posted by Incompetent
take a wild fucking guess at what that number i posted was

Last time I had sex? :tear:

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
No, I quoted the simpsons in response to incompetent's (maybe you two should switch names) post. He said Osama should have attacked at midnight if he only wanted to cripple America. If he'd attack at midnight, it would have been September 12, 9/12. Significance of 911, was our emergency #. Thus, I related it to the Simpsons in an effort to bring a little humour into your sad, miserable little life. I guess I failed. Oh well, you can live your life of misery, I still have the ability to laugh. I'm not going to let the bonehead government below me dampen my day.

As for the world's support, I guess the 100, 000+ protesting in NY are with bush. Not to mention the Million+ in Rome, or the 500, 000+ in Britain. Not to mention the millions of other's protesting.

But hey, like I said, you're so patriotic and all for this war, why haven't you enlisted yet? OMG. It doesn't have to be EXACTLY midnight! I could have been latter when most of everyone had gone home. You are one dumb f*ck, you know that. There is no term that can describe your level of stupidty(except maybe rock).

Just because there are protesters doesn't mean they are the majority. Last I checked, the majority of Americans(especialy in my section of the US) were supporting the war against Saddam.

[SilentCacophony]

Boo hoo, all you did was ask about my family and I pointed out that yours was. Not my fault you tried to insult my family indirectly so you could try and keep your innocence when I retorted (which as I expected, you did)

You still haven't said why you haven't enlisted yet. Incompetent says he's signing up in 2 years (which is about when that pre-emptive strike will happen). So are you going to follow the rest of your family's history and not fight for what you believe in? At least I've got SOME respect for incompetent now.

And I'm an Atheist Incompetent, if you must know.

[Unregistered]

No, no, no!!!

I don't want to debate religion. I stay out of those debates, as there is no right or wrong. To each his own, on religion.

I just asked that because i wanted to be sure it was who I thought it was before I posted a welcome thread.

Canada+Idiot+AntiAmerican+BibleThumping= Orbital123

So far we have everything but the bible thumping.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by SandTrout
OMG. It doesn't have to be EXACTLY midnight! I could have been latter when most of everyone had gone home. You are one dumb f*ck, you know that. There is no term that can describe your level of stupidty(except maybe rock).


Gee, what's dumber than a rock? Oh yeah, a trout. After midnight would still be the 12th, and earlier there'd probably still be people in the building. Although it's not as populated during the day, I bet there were always people in there 24/7 anyways.

[Incompetent]

why, pray tell, are you telling me, unreg asked if you were religious. and i don't want your respect

[SandTrout]

Heh, even ABRAX is dislikeing this thread. . .:rolleyes:

As for why I haven't joined the military, I'm too young. I will join when I'm 18, and thats in about 1.5 years. It's funny, I'm not even out of highschool, yet I know more about the world than someone who(I'm assumeing) is in or past collage.

I'm too tired to be pissed off right now, but I would be to the point of violence if I wasn't.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by SandTrout
Lets see, they were hijackers, they don't need a flight to that city you moron. They could have grabed a flight to any city as far away as NY was and just headed that way. They didn't. Their purpose was to TERRORIZE the citizens of the USA.


I'm glad you came this late in the argument trout. You're dumber than they TRY to make me look. I think a flight that was supposed to land in texas, all of a sudden heading for NY, would have roused just a little suspicion.

[SilentCacophony]

No unreg, I'm anti bible, so no worries.

Trout, you may THINK you know a lot about the world, but so far you seem as intelligent as your namesake. By the way, one shouldn't assume, it makes an ASS out of U, not ME

[Unregistered]

You Sir know nothing about my family, and I'm not going to bring them into this argument. If you want to ask weather or not they fought in WWII the answer is yes.

Now to answer your question about why I am not serving in the military it's because I have flat feet and they wouldn't take me. I would really have liked Uncle Sam to have picked up my collede bills for me.

[SandTrout]

This bastard is just someone who is fucking with us. He doesn't realy believe this shit, he's just laughing at our reactions. I'm going to make a request. Hamma, :banplz:.

[Incompetent]

Nonono Sandtrout, Unregs post is in the way, you have to do it like this.

SilentCacophony

:banplz:

[Unregistered]

The scary part is I honestly beleave he thinks that he is smart, and that we just don't understand the situation. I find it quite scary that people this ignorant exisit.

There's always hope he'll set his sights on winning a Darwin Award. He seems to have the mindset it would take to win one.

[SilentCacophony]

Oh, and as to all you morons who said the Japanese showed no signs of surrenduring, and that the second bomb was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARRY to save lives, here's a little something that might interest you.

"Really, it was also too late to use it against Japan, too. Already the Japanese were looking for terms of surrender, but these approaches for peace from Japan, not made public, even to members of the Manhattan Project, were ignored. The U.S. wanted no terms, no conditions; not even the safety of the Emperor could be guaranteed (although that request was granted, after the two atom bombs were dropped). Japan had to surrender immediately and unconditionally - the U.S. knowing full well that Japan could never go for that. (Add'l evidence, in square brackets, added 1999):

[That there really were surrender overtures by the Japanese was confirmed by a man who ought to know, CIA chief Allen Dulles. In an interview with Clifford Evans (1/19/63 (NY) WOR-TV), Dulles said: "I had been in touch with certain Japanese.... They...were ready to surrender provided the Emperor could be saved so as to have unity in Japan. I took that word to Secretary (of State) Stimson at Potsdam July 20, 1945...."

[Just weeks later, August 6 and August 9, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed.]"

http://www.webster.sk.ca/GREENWICH/HIRO2BMB.HTM

As I've said multiple times though, you guys have your flag pulled over your eyes.

[SilentCacophony]

lol, yeah, ban a man for speaking his opinions. Silence me like your country silences the opinions of others. It really is a shame.....

[Incompetent]

or we could have already considered it and think that the best course of action is to make them surrender unconditionally, otherwise they might get the stupid idea to try again.

[ABRAXAAS]

Someone Lock this thread PLEASE!! its gettin unruley in here the love is gone:(

[Incompetent]

holy shit the world is going to end, ABRAX said something I... I... agree with

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
I'm glad you came this late in the argument trout. You're dumber than they TRY to make me look. I think a flight that was supposed to land in texas, all of a sudden heading for NY, would have roused just a little suspicion. I haden't seen the thread until it was aprently dug up from the dridges of the lounge. Yes, it would have looked suspicious, but you're an absolute idiot if anything could have been done. There were hundreds if not thousands of planes in the air at the time, and just because something changes course doesn't mean the President is automaticly going to have the 2 towers evacuated and the planes shot down. I doubt that he would even have time to get jets in the air before the planes hit.

9/11 was an unprecidented(you do know what that means, dont you?) attack. We would have never anticipated what in planes were for, other that posibly hostages. You are an absolute idiot just an absolute idiot. Hell, you don't ever know the orogin of my screenname.

Quit being a jackass and flameing for the sake of flameing. I know I have a greater understanding of the world than you because I can moderately reliably guess and understand people's reactions. You however, think that killing enemys that are shooting at you is as bad as tortureing, rapeing, and slaughering POWs and civilians.

[SilentCacophony]

Also from the previously mentioned site.....

"The U.S. Congress (which is supposed to run the show) had been kept in total ignorance of the Manhattan Project, even though the War Department, by trying to disguise it in various budgets, spent $2 billion on it. (Indeed, few had any grasp of the whole of the project they were working on. Many working on it were ex-cons, murderers on the "lam " and they were told their criminal files would be burned if they 'played ball' with the project and Col. Paul Tibbet, who later piloted the bomber that flew the mission over Hiroshima.) "

Guess Saddam isn't the only one to have criminals working for him and then turn the other cheek. Odd isn't it, that in a democratic society, the military runs the show. Looking more like a depotism to me. Japan wanted to surrender, and the military just wanted a wonderful place to show off their bomb and scare Russia. Did it work? Hmmm, you HAVE heard of the cold war, haven't you?

[Unregistered]

How many more times are you going to try and paint us out to be the bad guys in this situation without knowing all the facts?

Japan wanted to surrender, but not Unconditonally. In there first atempts they wanted a negociated surrender that would allow them to keep areas that they still occupied.

That was unacceptable, and the bomb was droped. Only after the 2nd bomb was droped did they agree to an unconditonal surrender.

You call us stupid, and you only know half of every story. Please try to do a little more research.

[ABRAXAAS]

Does anyone remeber what this Thread was about :confused:

[BLuE_ZeRO]

It was about something?

[Unregistered]

It's about SilentStupidity's utter lack of reading comprehension.

[Incompetent]

Hell, you don't ever know the orogin of my screenname. well in all fairness, sandtrout were kind of mindless

ABRAXAAS, i think it was about a speech that a retired air force general gave or something like that, a fairly nice one at that.

[SandTrout]

I'm now convinced Silent's intelegence would be improved by a labotomy.

I'm not saying you should be baned to speaking your opinion, but rather blatently rephraseing things out of context and in a misleading way to make you opinion apear like fact, then flameing any who oppose you. You are a Troll, nothing more, maybe something less. Intetionaly being a Troll is a bannable offence if I am not mistaken.

I shall no longer partake in this thread,
Trout out.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by SandTrout
I'm now convinced Silent's intelegence would be improved by a labotomy.

I'm not saying you should be baned to speaking your opinion, but rather blatently rephraseing things out of context and in a misleading way to make you opinion apear like fact, then flameing any who oppose you. You are a Troll, nothing more, maybe something less. Intetionaly being a Troll is a bannable offence if I am not mistaken.

I shall no longer partake in this thread,
Trout out.

He's a Troll ...WOOHOO maybee finaly my Trolling days will fade away :D

[SilentCacophony]

"9/11 was an unprecidented(you do know what that means, dont you?) attack. We would have never anticipated what in planes were for, other that posibly hostages. You are an absolute idiot just an absolute idiot. Hell, you don't ever know the orogin of my screenname."

(didn't hit quote, sorry)

Don't know what unprecidented is, but I know what "unprecedented" is. As I pointed out before, if you're going to try and insult someones education, at least have the courtesy to spell the word you're going to question my intelligence on correctly. I'm not even going to start on your grammar or your other spelling mistakes, cause hey, maybe you just have fat fingers and hit the wrong keys while you type.

Obviously you haven't read that article. Besides, you guys said they were all fanatics and willing to die no matter what. They'd been discussing surrender for weeks beforehand, and the U.S. just wanted to show off their bomb to show off their power.

As for killing innocent civilians and POW's trout, I guess you didn't read the site I posted either. Well here, allow me to put down what the bomb did to innocent Japanese civilians (not to mention American POW's.

"In a microsecond, huge stone pillars were rammed deep into the ground. For those distant enough not to be vaporized by the 50 million degree core temperature, eyes were liquefied, pouring out of sockets; clothing was fused to skin, which hung in runny tatters and shreds. Trapped people were burning alive and many were covered from head to foot, stuck with splintered glass which the shock wave fired like a whirlwind of needle-shaped bullets through the air. Others, blinded by the flash, staggered into jagged debris. Children cried and whimpered, completely lost. Others wandered like a funeral procession of the living dead, while the mushroom cloud overhead blotted out the sun and brought on night. 180 of 200 doctors in Hiroshima were killed. Only 130 nurses were left from 1,800. 3 of 55 hospitals were all that remained, and 70,000 water-main breaks hampered the few remaining (16) fire trucks. "

I'm guessing that while reading through this you didn't happen to see what the US embargo on Iraq has done to the citizens over there. Yes Saddam causes them distress, but the U.S. isn't helping despite what the ignorant people here are trying to argue.

[Lexington_Steele]

Man, how did I miss out on the fun of this thread?

I only got to page 3 before I decided that there was no way that I was going read all 13 pages of stuff, so someone bring me up to speed. I know this one seems to have to do with bombing Japan and Unregistered is calling people idiots.

It seems like you guys are stacking the teams on this issue so I am going to come in on SilentCacophony's side.

Forgive me if I wait a few post to get into the mix so I can figure out who is arguing what.

Btw, can we refreain from calling eachother idiots. (points finger at Unregistered) ;)

[ABRAXAAS]

Please could you just walk away. since everyone else is against you its fruitless, just walk away and live to fight another day .:D

[SilentCacophony]

lol, I speak my opinion, you guys don't like it, you flame me, and I'M the troll. Riggggghhhhttttt....... Well excuse me for not being ignorant and actually reading and not just listening to what CNN tells me.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
Please could you just walk away. since everyone else is against you its fruitless, just walk away and live to fight another day .:D
He is no longer alone, I stand with him (although I don't know what we are standing for yet). :)

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Gay pride issues lex :love:

[Incompetent]

Lexington, everyone has pretty much given up on the idiot, read the rest of the thread and you'll see why (go ahead and skip over unreg war crimes novels) Nav isn't gonna post here anymore, Unreg seems to have quite, im about to go to sleep, and most everyone else has given up to.

Edit: your standing on the side that says the US is worse then Iraq

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Sleep!? wtf how do you expect to play BF1942 with me when I get home? sonuva... :mad:

[Saint]

Admin: please close this post, it is out of control!

[Incompetent]

i'm coming up on the 26 hour mark without sleep, but i guess i can put it off till about 8-9 pacific

edit: hurry up and get home damnit

[mistled]

hey guys, slow down... I wasn't following this thread and I'm only up to page 9 now... slow down so I can catch up :D

[ABRAXAAS]

Try goin 65 h without sleep it gets pretty crazy ,also the only time I have ever been in a car accident:D

[SilentCacophony]

Not my fault they couldn't handle it. I win anyways, it doesn't look like we're attacking Iraq anytime soon to me. And that info I just posted completely shut down their arguments about the atomic bomb and the whole "Japan was full of unsurrendering fanatics."

It's sad really, that the only person I've got left who's trying to fight for his country is a sad little 17 yr old who named himself after an almost extinct fish (that or a racist term for a pakistani woman).

[Incompetent]

I think the longest I ever went on a streak was around 48, but i felt like shit for a good long while afterwards.

[Incompetent]

*Cough*FrankHerbertyouilleteratefuck*cough*
edit: damn, won't let me delete my post, wanted to move this up to the other one with an edit

[QUOTE]Not my fault they couldn't handle it. I win anywaysQUOTE] That has to be the worst joke i have ever read/heard

[BLuE_ZeRO]

Originally posted by Incompetent
i'm coming up on the 26 hour mark without sleep, but i guess i can put it off till about 8-9 pacific

edit: hurry up and get home damnit

Why don't you sleep like normal people? take a nap or something.

[SilentCacophony]

You're screwed mistled, there is no way you'll be able to keep up. Especially no way you can read all the sites listed either. Hell, I still haven't finished the 12 pager navaron sent me, though unlike some ignorant people, I actually read the sources people post, and listen to the arguments of others, rather than just try to score points by flaming them.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent

[QUOTE]Not my fault they couldn't handle it. I win anywaysQUOTE]

Funny, wasn't I flamed earlier for editing quotes (and I was merely doing it to save space). Anyways, who said anything about a joke? It doesn't look like the U.S. is invading Iraq anytime soon, which means I win, right? The argument was mostly about whether or not the U.S. should go in, and they're not going in. At least not anytime in the near future that I can see.

[SandTrout]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
It's sad really, that the only person I've got left who's trying to fight for his country is a sad little 17 yr old who named himself after an almost extinct fish (that or a racist term for a pakistani woman). Ok, maybe I will still post here, but not politics.

The sandtrout were the larvel stage of the sandworms from the Dune serise. They were fairly mindless as Incompetent stated, but that has nothing to do with why I chose my screenname. The sandtrout would gather in collonys around bodys of water, which was deadly to the larger sandworms. Also, one of the ruleing lines of the known worlds used them to transform himself into an extreamly strong, extreamly fast human/sandtrout hybrid that eventualy turned him into a sandworm. Its a good serise, and I sudgest you read it.


BTW: Do the math again, if I'm 1.5 years from being 18, that means I'm 16, not 17.

[Incompetent]

funny, i didn't edit your quote

[Navaron]

You sir, are a total moron. You have dropped well below the ranks of Abrax, Bighoss, Revolution, or Rabid. You not only have no clue what you are talking about, you are dead set on insulting everyone personally when the bottom falls out of your arguements.

Lex, I would urge you to read the entire thread before even associating with this guy. Hell, Incomp agrees with me, that means you need to go to church and repent cause the endtimes are coming.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by Incompetent
Lexington, everyone has pretty much given up on the idiot, read the rest of the thread and you'll see why (go ahead and skip over unreg war crimes novels) Nav isn't gonna post here anymore, Unreg seems to have quite, im about to go to sleep, and most everyone else has given up to.

Edit: your standing on the side that says the US is worse then Iraq
No I am not going to go back and read through this one.

What would happen is that I would start replying to and arguing against points people made 10 pages ago. What you would have is 3-5 pages of Lex posts before I even got to where we are now.

[Navaron]

Well if you wanna keep this thing alive, you're gonna have to. That guys beat. I'd do it just so you see what I was associating myself with. Maybe Mist will come along shortly. You two always seem to liven things up........

[ABRAXAAS]

DIE THREAD DIE!!:sniper: :eek:

[SilentCacophony]

Whatever, I thought you'd said a year. It wasn't exactly something important for me to note.

As for Dune, I've never read it, so no, I wouldn't know of them in that reference. You DO have a picture of a trout in your sig, so I thought you might just be an animal nut as the sandtrout is an endangered species.

I have been planing on reading Dune though, cause I liked the movie as a kid, as did my older brother. I recently bought him the whole trilogy (the christmas before last), and so I've got it in my house. I'm constantly reading, and tend to go through bout 50 pages a day of a decent book. Plus I read all this junk online. I've read every website I've posted, and that anyone else has posted here (half of the 12 page PDF file but I bookmarked that).

Not getting to Dune till I finish "The Stand" which I just started. Uncut version too, 1100 page monster of a book, and even then it's not exactly on top of my list.

[ABRAXAAS]

Dune is good:D

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Not my fault they couldn't handle it. I win anyways, it doesn't look like we're attacking Iraq anytime soon to me. And that info I just posted completely shut down their arguments about the atomic bomb and the whole "Japan was full of unsurrendering fanatics."

It's sad really, that the only person I've got left who's trying to fight for his country is a sad little 17 yr old who named himself after an almost extinct fish (that or a racist term for a pakistani woman).

That would be my quote. "Not my fault they couldn't handle it. I win anyways" That would be what you quoted me as saying. You guys flamed me for cutting down a quote like that too.

[ABRAXAAS]

LET IT GO !!:rolleyes:

[Incompetent]

You said edit, edit implies that i changed something

edit:hurry up BZ

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Well if you wanna keep this thing alive, you're gonna have to. That guys beat. I'd do it just so you see what I was associating myself with. Maybe Mist will come along shortly. You two always seem to liven things up........
I am still not sure what I am supposed to be arguing. :( I get the feeling that the steam ran out on this one.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
You sir, are a total moron. You have dropped well below the ranks of Abrax, Bighoss, Revolution, or Rabid. You not only have no clue what you are talking about, you are dead set on insulting everyone personally when the bottom falls out of your arguements.

Lol, you call me a moron, and then say I insult everyone when my arguments have no validity. That's what you've been doing this entire thread. I haven't insulted anyone except when they found it necessary to insult me. Insulting in a debate is just a way of trying to score points, as I keep saying, it doesn't prove anything. If Gore had called Bush a moron during the presidential debates, sure it may have made Bush look bad (and he IS a moron), but how would that prove Gore is a good candidate? It doesn't. So please, if you're just going to resort to petty insults, I've got a little brother who you'd have a better chance debating with.

[ABRAXAAS]

OI! :tear: :tear: cant we all just get along:confused:

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Incompetent
You said edit, edit implies that i changed something

edit:hurry up BZ

Removing something constitutes changing it, does it not? IF I hacked off my arm, do you not think I'd be somewhat changed? In writing, half of editing IS removing text.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
OI! :tear: :tear: cant we all just get along:confused:
Aren't you supposed to be trolling and stirring up trouble rather than trying for peace? ;)

[Incompetent]

Nah, ABRAX has been pretty decent lately

[SilentCacophony]

And as for comparing me to Abbraxus, you can go to hell. I'm nothing like him. He is New Conglomerate scum. Terran Republic will prevail.

Hey, I like keeping these threads on PS every now and then.

[ABRAXAAS]

no Ive come back to the force ,the darkside has no sway with me :father:

[Incompetent]

least i know who my first tk will be

[mistled]

Ha, well I finally caught up with everyone and it seems that everyone has left. Lex and I love to argue though, so I'm fairly confident that we can rip each other to shreds if need be.

I'll only respond to one thing that Silent said since I am not sure after reading this whole thread what it is that he is trying to argue in favor of. I'll refrain from replying to all the things I would like to because, like Lex said, we would then have three more pages of my replies.

I'll also try to refrain from insulting you Silent, so that no one can complain that others are flaming them.

Onward to what I will respond to at the moment. Silent stated that "I win anyways, it doesn't look like we're attacking Iraq anytime soon to me."

Let's look at that statement. For someone to win an argument, the conclusion of said argument must have been in doubt at the outset of the argument. Otherwise, it is not an argument, but merely one's stating fact. So I'll assume that you are referring to your statements in this thread where you stated that the US will not attack Iraq soon. Considering that this thread just started this morning how is it that you claim victory when you've only given the US twelve hours to attack since this thread began?? Also, I would like to know what information sources you have that show you how close the US is to attacking Iraq. I personally have no sources that inform me of the military's attack schedule, and I somehow doubt that you do either.

[ABRAXAAS]

:rofl:

[mistled]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
You have dropped well below the ranks of ........Revolution, or Rabid. Ouch, that's terrible.... that's just mean.

[Saint]

Bahaha

[Saint]

Don't you hate it when people argue about something they have no idea about? Silent needs to be hit in the head with a brick again, or maybe a 'hamma'.

:banplz::banplz::banplz::banplz::banplz:

[SilentCacophony]

Lol, well if they all left, and they haven't attacked as of yet, then I've won right?

On top of that, the UN hasn't given them the go ahead, France anf Germany are sleeping together, Canada is opposed (so no, you can't have our three warships), people are protesting all over, and if anything is going to happen, we're just going to get more inspectors in there.

From a military point of view, I've always felt the U.S. should just go ahead and attack, since they've claimed they were going to with the support of the UN or not, right? What is the point of talking about a pre-emptive strike for a year? That's not very "pre-emptive" is it?

On that note, just cause I think they SHOULD go in, doesn't mean I support it. Just like I'm always flamed for calling Osama's attack on the states pure military genius, but I don't support him either.

Personally I think we should put his balls in a vice and then shoot at his feet (maybe throw on House of Pain "Jump Around" while we do it), but that doesn't mean it wasn't a good strike from his point of view.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
You sir, are a total moron. You have dropped well below the ranks of Abrax, Bighoss, Revolution, or Rabid. You not only have no clue what you are talking about, you are dead set on insulting everyone personally when the bottom falls out of your arguements.

Lex, I would urge you to read the entire thread before even associating with this guy. Hell, Incomp agrees with me, that means you need to go to church and repent cause the endtimes are coming.

Are you still ragin on me , come one gimie some love:love: :love:
you know you wanna:D

[SilentCacophony]

Do you REALLY want love from someone in clan "BOHICA"?

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Ha, well I finally caught up with everyone and it seems that everyone has left. Lex and I love to argue though, so I'm fairly confident that we can rip each other to shreds if need be.

...

Onward to what I will respond to at the moment. Silent stated that "I win anyways, it doesn't look like we're attacking Iraq anytime soon to me."

Let's look at that statement. For someone to win an argument, the conclusion of said argument must have been in doubt at the outset of the argument. Otherwise, it is not an argument, but merely one's stating fact. So I'll assume that you are referring to your statements in this thread where you stated that the US will not attack Iraq soon. Considering that this thread just started this morning how is it that you claim victory when you've only given the US twelve hours to attack since this thread began?? Also, I would like to know what information sources you have that show you how close the US is to attacking Iraq. I personally have no sources that inform me of the military's attack schedule, and I somehow doubt that you do either.
I am here for ya mistled. :)

I disregarded that "I win" comment. I saw it as merely as the culmination of the frustration that was created by trying to argue aginst five or six other people, many of whom were tossing in insults.

[Saint]

Do you REALLY want love from someone in clan "BOHICA"?

Thats it, I know officially hate you, you are a complete jackass. You need to be shot. You are on my hitlist now, you best watch your back and not show your face on these here forums again

[Navaron]

Hey, I said he was below you!!! Lemme turn it around.

Abraaxas, you are way better than this silent guy.

"well if they all left"

Persistance isn't a virtue. "Continually repeating the same actions hoping for a different result" - insanity.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Do you REALLY want love from someone in clan "BOHICA"?

Although many of them are politcaly misguided ;) most of them are pretty A OK in my book (although I get the sneaking suspicion that I am not Mr V's favorite person).

[mistled]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
Do you REALLY want love from someone in clan "BOHICA"? Everyone wants to be loved by BOHICA.

[Navaron]

I think he was implying a gay joke.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}mistled
Everyone wants to be loved by BOHICA.

You guys have female members? If so, is there a glass ceiling for their rank advancement? ;)

[Navaron]

Not yet. Well...Dio...nahh. Not yet.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by {BOHICA}Navaron
Persistance isn't a virtue. "Continually repeating the same actions hoping for a different result" - insanity.

You mean like electing a Bush and going after Iraq every 10 years?

Awww, Saint, I'm crushed, lmao. It's so nice that I'm going to have all of you coming for me, it's going to save me a lot of travel time. What I don't understand is why you quoted what I said about BOHICA, you're not Bohica.

[Lexington_Steele]

Originally posted by SilentCacophony
You mean like electing a Bush and going after Iraq every 10 years?

:rofl:
Comeon guys, you have to give silent some kind of points for that one. That was comedy gold.

[SilentCacophony]

Wow Navaron, you're not as dumb as incompetent looks.

[Incompetent]

mayhaps, because BOHICA is a respected outfit with kickass members (even if they let tobias in, damn vanu j/k <3 you tobias)

[Saint]

I am a BOHICA follower and everyone in BOHICA 0wnz j00.