Looking for the facts.....

[Unregistered]

So after reading the numorus political threads that have crept up on this forum, and finding myself becoming increasingly dissillusioned with Librals, and Democrats, I am seeking information about their view points.

Mostly because of their unsuported views that the President was invloved in the Enron scandle, or that he is responsible for the state of the economy, or that the Iraq thing is "Blood for Oil".

So I started thinking.......It seems that so many of the Anti-Bush statements come from people that haven't provided much in the way of Factual evidence to support their claims.

Now I have always prided myself on the fact that I try to sort through Opinion for the Facts, and then make my own informed decision. Now I can't beleave that there are that many people here that are just completely clueless about world affairs (of course the protester video proves there are that many idiots), so there must be some article (by a credible news source) that I missed.

I've searched the web trying to find some credible information on Mr. Bush's illeagle activity or other scandles and all I could find were articles from July, August 2002 stating he was "Suspected" of wrong doing, but nothing since then. Why? Did he commit crimes, or was this democratic mud slinging that didn't go anywhere?

I've also been looking for anything that might remotle support the "Blood for Oil" claims of the protesters. I figured this would be an easy task since this will be out second "Blood for Oil" war, and in the 12 years since the last one I was certian the supporting information documenting the seizure of Kauiti Oil fields, and Corprate America taking over the country, but since it never happened I can't find anything about it. So if you could I'd like to read up on some facts about these "Blood for Oil" wars we keep fighting.

Lastly I'd like some good factual eveidence that supports the claims that Iraq has disspossed of it's WMD and that the U.S. is war mongering. The last article that I read on this subject was written by the Former head weapons inspector in Iraq, and he stated that "It's not up to the U.S. to prove that Saddam has the weapons, it's up to Saddam to prove that he does not". The article went on to compare other countries that have dissarmed (South Africa, and former Soviet Republics) in comparison to Iraq, and from that article I had made the decission that Saddam was not in cooperation with the UN Inspectors.

But I could be wrong, and I am very interested in reading some factual eveidence that supports the Anti-Bush/Pro-Iraq additude.

Please help me, and if possible give links to your sources of information or I will not take it seriously.

[ABRAXAAS]

Persoanly I dont have facts, I dont like him cause A: he talks with a funny accent B: He sounds retarded C: He's Overly religious and seems to use that way to much. D: He keeps dissin every country that doesnt agree with him . and Thats my opinion, but who cares im canadian :D

[Airlift]

You can take this how you'd like, but here are a few interesting links.

http://www.sfbg.com/reality/04.html

Here's a reprinted Business Week article: http://www.midwestacademy.com/Comment/oil%20but.htm

http://www.msnbc.com/news/824407.asp

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/DailyNews/enron011210.html

http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/07/11/bush.loans/

reprinted from Wall Street Journal
http://foi.missouri.edu/usenergypolicies/harvardharkenwsj.html

Please note that while I have voted for democrats in some past elections, I have also voted Republican and Libertarian (until I decided that Libertarians are [really] crazy). I have also specifically not voted when I felt unrepresented.

I am not a liberal, though I have some liberal views. I am a disenfranchised moderate. I pulled all of these articles out of a Google search and tried to avoid the less "reputable" news sources, though there definately may be some crackpots in the mix.

[Hamma]

sigh

[�io]

:nod::stupid::nod:

[Confectrix]

I've noticed that this board is very, very political. At times, it gets vicious. I've been here since Tuesday and let's just say I've gotten in more political "hogwash" here than I had two weeks otherwise (and this is being a Republican).

This can be a good thing; but it can also be a bad thing.

Keep this in mind.

Pax,

[Sputty]

I like how ABRAX put it. Simple and the truth(meaning he didn't make up a bunch of BS to try to convince others)BTW..Im Canadian too. ABRAX...Isn't Canada fun?

[Unregistered]

Thanks Airlift.

Your articles (including the one from the Guardian, which surprised me) were just about what I had expected because they are very close to the same ones that I have read.

Infact most of the articles on his involvement with Oil Companies, clear him of any wrong doing and clearly state that he followed the law.

The one thing that I have been hoping to find (and this may surprise you) is evidence of him selling out California. Yes, that is the one thing in his presidecy I was not happy with. When we were having our energy crisis, he refused to give us Fedral Aid (even though Californians pay more in tax then any other state). As a result we bought energy from Enron at inflated prices.

Then again Washinton has been fleecing California for years so I don't blame Bush personally, I balme the entire U.S. for raping our resources and not giving enough back to us.

The "Blood for Oil" articles were interesting too, and also what I expected. The majority of which stated that France has large oil stakes in Iraq, while the U.S. have very little at this time. From what I read it sounds like not only U.S. corporations, but Russian, and French companies stand to benifit as well. Further more the articles all state that they are all theroy, and that a U.S. occupation of the area is highly unlikely. All the war would do is A) Increase Oil Prices in the short term helping all oil companies, and then B) Cut Oil Prices hurting Oil Companies.

Basically it only opens Iraq as a place for U.S. Corporations to do bussiness.

Still not enough to convince me that I should change my thinking on the matter.


*note* Your political views as described at the end of your post are pretty consistant with my own. I vote for who ever i feel is best for my interests. Hell i even voted for Clinton. Although I lean tword the Conservative side, I do agree with the Dems on some issues.

[eMaGyN]

Something that is sometimes confused.
Liberals are not necesarrily Liberitarians. They can be two seperate things.


:love:
eMa

[Airlift]

I think Libertarians are very very conservative. I'm all for small government, but I like some of the things the FDA and USDA do for us (not all things, mind you, but it is nice to at least be able to fool yourself into thinking that there is a limit on the number of cockroach testicles in that bratwurst I just ate, and that someone is at least trying to take rogue pharmaceutical companies to task).

I think Clinton was a pretty good president, aside from his whole pimpish misconduct. Didn't trust him any more than I trust Bush, which is not to say that either of them can be proven out as criminals. If you want to know who I really don't trust tho, it's Dick Cheney. Halliburton is definately a Gibsonian mega-corp, and they were all about rebuilding Iraqi infrastructure after the first Gulf War.

Whether we physically occupy Iraq or not, look for Halliburton and its wholly-owned subsidiaries to pull in another big haul on equipment sales and support. It isn't so much that I have a problem with US Corps making money in Iraq as I have a problem with US Corps with intimite ties to the administration making money rebuilding the countries we bomb. Cheney certainly did not invent pork-barreling, he's just damn good at it.

[Navaron]

Thomas Jefferson was a "Libertarian" , but, nowadays, they have views all over the board.

[ABRAXAAS]

Originally posted by Sputty
I like how ABRAX put it. Simple and the truth(meaning he didn't make up a bunch of BS to try to convince others)BTW..Im Canadian too. ABRAX...Isn't Canada fun?

Yes I love Canada ,exept im gettin tired of livin in this igloo :D

[Sputty]

Yeah, igloos SUCK! Except, you can lick them and they taste good.....Just like...*insert body part here*

[ABRAXAAS]

I also hate the fact that we only have maple syrup and bacon to eat

[Saint]

Screw you, I live in Alaska, I live in a giant igloo and I power my computer by dangling a fish in front of my pet penquins and having them waddle on my treadmill type device. Hahahaha. Damn I am hungry I need to go to the ice hole and get some fish, I will just take my dog sled.

[Sputty]

At least you get penguin meat. Bacoon and maple yrup gets annyonig after 17 years of it...And it;'s not healthy...Also, I'm tied of servicing my canoe.

[Derfud]

yeah.. well.. i have only one thing to say... COMMIES ROXOR JOORE BOXOR!

[Lexington_Steele]

I just thought I would add an article on Bush. :)

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0228/ridgeway.php

[Tobias]

Originally posted by Saint
Screw you, I live in Alaska, I live in a giant igloo and I power my computer by dangling a fish in front of my pet penquins and having them waddle on my treadmill type device. Hahahaha. Damn I am hungry I need to go to the ice hole and get some fish, I will just take my dog sled.

And the best part is..... penquins only live in South America and Antartica!

[SilentCacophony]

"Lastly I'd like some good factual eveidence that supports the claims that Iraq has disspossed of it's WMD and that the U.S. is war mongering. The last article that I read on this subject was written by the Former head weapons inspector in Iraq, and he stated that "It's not up to the U.S. to prove that Saddam has the weapons, it's up to Saddam to prove that he does not". The article went on to compare other countries that have dissarmed (South Africa, and former Soviet Republics) in comparison to Iraq, and from that article I had made the decission that Saddam was not in cooperation with the UN Inspectors."

Didn't feel like hitting quote and editing it.

Yes that's the way it's supposed to be. Saddam is supposed to show these weapons, the UN inspectors are not supposed to find them. Here's what I've always thought though. If you were a suspect in a murder trial, and you'd actually done it, would you drag the corpse into the court room or plead your innocence? I'm not saying Saddam has these weapons, I'm simply saying if you were him, would you drag them all out?

If I were to engage an enemy, I'd keep my knife hidden until I was ready to go for his throat.

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Sputty
At least you get penguin meat. Bacoon and maple yrup gets annyonig after 17 years of it...And it;'s not healthy...Also, I'm tied of servicing my canoe.

Well I don't know bout you, but I've never tired of the beer. At least we've always got that.

"A woman is a lot like a beer. They look good, they smell good, and you'd step over your own mother just to get one"
-Homer J Simpson

[SilentCacophony]

Originally posted by Sputty
I like how ABRAX put it. Simple and the truth(meaning he didn't make up a bunch of BS to try to convince others)BTW..Im Canadian too. ABRAX...Isn't Canada fun?

Well that's 3 Canadians I know of thus far (counting myself obviously). Think there's enough of us here to make our own TR clan? Why TR? Cause then we just need to fill in the white on our flag with black for a bitching colour co-ordinated logo. Speaking of "colour," America sucks, they don't know how to use a "U" :D

So lex, are you telling me I should go buy some haliburton stock?

[KoldFusion]

Originally posted by ABRAXAAS
Persoanly I dont have facts, I dont like him cause A: he talks with a funny accent B: He sounds retarded C: He's Overly religious and seems to use that way to much. D: He keeps dissin every country that doesnt agree with him . and Thats my opinion, but who cares im canadian :D

This guy dissing all others countries is Donald Rumsfeld and he is a moron. he kinda reminds me of dulles fromt he vietnam days. Bush needs to shut him up

[Hamma]

Yea he needs to be silenced, he keeps opening his mouth with comments that just should not be said by a public official rofl

[Navaron]

"This guy dissing all others countries is Donald Rumsfeld and he is a moron. he kinda reminds me of dulles fromt he vietnam days. Bush needs to shut him up"

What you guys seem to fail to notice is that Rummy, Bush, Powell are all playing all three angles. Bush can't tell say...france to shove it, but Rumsfeld can. Powell plays the anti war thing, then switches pov and nets all of those supporters. They're playing the field. These guys are on top of their game. You can't honestly believe that Rummy or Powell or Rice go off and say anything without talking it over before hand. These guys pwn strategery. There's dozens of examples. Suffice it to say, that these guys are the best political manipulators I've ever seen. That includes Clinton, who was the master of politics.

[Tobias]

Wow, you have a good point there Nav, I had not noticed that.

[KoldFusion]

Originally posted by Tobias
Wow, you have a good point there Nav, I had not noticed that. :stupid:

But I still think Rumsfeld is a moron!:mad: He really needs to can it