Gas out, May 15th

[Jaged]

...in April 1997, there was a "gas out" conducted nationwide in
protest of gas prices. Gasoline prices dropped 30 cents a gallon
overnight.

On May 15th 2007, all internet users are to not go to a gas station in
protest of high gas prices. Gas is now over $3.00 a gallon in most
places.

There are 73,000,000+ American members currently on the internet
network, and the average car takes about 30 to 50 dollars to fill up.

If all users did not go to the pump on the 15th, it would take
$2,292,000,000.00 (that's almost 3 BILLION) out of the oil companies
pockets for just one day, so please do not go to the gas station on
May 15th and lets try to put a dent in the Middle Eastern oil industry for
at least one day.

[OneManArmy]

Just so you know I plan on filling up my Trans Am's gas tank that day. She's gets about 13-15mpg. :) Then I think I'll go for a drive and fill her up again before I return home. Hell maybe I'll fill up my other car too, though sadly it gets better gas mileage.

[Jaged]

For fucks sake, this used to be a nice internet forum. Now its just the same as all the rest.

RIP PSU, I think its time for me to remove this place from my link bar. Bye folks.

[OneManArmy]

ok, but if you don't call everyone a worthless cunt and post links to broken pictures, I am going to be severely disappointed in you.

[Ghryphen]

I fill up once a week, my filling will not land on the 15th so I will be participating I guess.

Like me, 73,000,000+ don't fill up every day so the math is not quite working out. If like me, they fill up once a week it could possibly be only 10,000,000 if the likelihood of their fill date falling on that day was averaged across 1 in 7 days.

[GeneralRazor]

I'll participate.

The thing is: Americans love their cars. Car-pooling or taking the bus on a regular basis would have a much more crippling effect on the companies, even 25% of the people you mentioned did it on a regular basis. Plain and simple: people just aren't pro-active enough to have the true desired effect.

This plan may drop the price for a week max.

[Infernus]

I drive a 93 cavalier... I'm afraid of driving to buy the gas, the car shakes violently if it exceeds 5 mph.

[OneManArmy]

explain to me how people not buying gas on that day will have any effect?

of course, unless this involves some sort of short bus, window licking, retarded form of economics... then don't bother...

changing the date on which people buy their gas does nothing. the same amount of gas is still being bought and used, you know if you looked at a time period of more than a day...

but then, I guess, it would stop being that retarded form of economics you love so much.

[Rbstr]

Exactly, the gas will still have to be bought at some point in time, so the companies are going to get your money anyway.

[Diviant]

Just goes to show you that prices are determined by some guy throwing darts at a dartboard with prices written on it. He hit the bullseye.

[Infernus]

The entire idea is actually pretty pointless.


Everybody stops buying gas for one day. BIG-FUCKING-WHOOP!

The next day everybody is back at the pump, and the gas company ends up loosing relatively little money. All the people that had to buy 5 gallons on "gas-out day" have to buy twice that the day after, at more then half the original price.

5*2.90 = 14.50...

10*2.60 = 26.00...

The overall loss? 3 dollars per person filling up. And that is maximized, the over loss would be alleviated by the end of the week.

Should I continue?

Here is another issue: The oil companies set price, and guess what... some piddly ass group (relatively) not buying gas on one day means nothing to them. Because on the second day that group will be half as big.

Jim (day 1): I'm not buying gas today to say "Fuck you" to the man.

Jim (day 2): Oh shit, theres no bus routes that go to my place of work, and it isn't a walkable distance... I guess I can ride on the gas I have.

Jim (day 3): Well, I have to go buy gas because realism trumps idealism.

And thats it simply... realism trumps idealism... the idea isn't practical in any sort of long term (longer then 16 hours) way. The average American wants to drive to save time/any other random number of things, they wouldn't intentionally cripple that ability for a long enough period of time to actually cause change.

[Hamma]

RIP PSU, I think its time for me to remove this place from my link bar. Bye folks.

permission to undock denied.

[Jaged]

permission to undock denied.

:lol: Understood captain. Remaining in station.


And I was wrong, OMA may be a redneck cockbite :love: but the rest of you are still awesome. Ill stay.

[OneManArmy]

thank you :) I prefer just plain asshole, but that works too.

[Giovanni]

The said gesture will be an empty one.

At best if it works, it will lower the prices for a short amount of time... then they will rise once more. Our people will not stop consuming, even if we get fucked over by the oil companies. For everyone that stops consuming for a day... we will have two who will keep their habits up.

It's a sad reality, we've doomed ourselves. We can only really sit here and wait. I'm guessing we will eventually blow up...

Ah and before you arrive with a statement like: "Urr but if we act now we can maybe start fixing the problems!"

Well... let's see... the problem is too much CO2 amongst other things. Even if by some miracle we convert every car to an electric one we would still be shooting it into the air with factories and the such. Thus, much like interest, it would keep piling up even thought we payed off (got rid) of most of the debt.


Then again... that's just my own pessimist point of view.

[OneManArmy]

and too add to that point of view I should be long dead before that ever becomes a problem :) so woo woo big American v8 with no emissions equipment.

[Knightwyvern]

It's good that you're willing to take an active roll in what you believe in, but this really would be totally pointless and would solve nothing. I mean, in a way rising gas prices are a good thing. It will force people to car-pool, take a bus, buy a hybrid etc. which will make a much more lasting effect. Lowering the prices will only make people buy MORE, not less.

[Lartnev]

Seeing Americans whine about petrol prices is always amusing :)

[Dorest0rm]

geez just buy smaller cars in europe we pay 2,5 times more

in europe we pay 7,58 dollar per gallon

[Rbstr]

It's good that you're willing to take an active roll in what you believe in, but this really would be totally pointless and would solve nothing. I mean, in a way rising gas prices are a good thing. It will force people to car-pool, take a bus, buy a hybrid etc. which will make a much more lasting effect. Lowering the prices will only make people buy MORE, not less.

Your right to a point. Thing is high gas prices can do untold economic damage, besides inconveniencing people that want to drive cars. We simply NEED cheap gas and fossil fuels because our infrastructure depends on it.

Hopefully gas prices rise slow enough that we have time to adjust, but depending on demand for other countries and how much oil is actually left in the ground prices could skyrocket. That would fuck us royally, even if it's the one thing that will finally end our greenhouse emissions.

[Knightwyvern]

Your right to a point. Thing is high gas prices can do untold economic damage, besides inconveniencing people that want to drive cars. We simply NEED cheap gas and fossil fuels because our infrastructure depends on it.

Hopefully gas prices rise slow enough that we have time to adjust, but depending on demand for other countries and how much oil is actually left in the ground prices could skyrocket. That would fuck us royally, even if it's the one thing that will finally end our greenhouse emissions.

What you say is true. However, the real problem is that people simply don't care. As long as fuel prices are low, people will just take this for granted and ignore all of the repercussions of a limited oil supply. More drastic measures need to be taken. History shows that until people are presented with a major and imminent problem, they will do their best to ignore said problem. It is only when some group or another steps up to the plate and forces the public to act that things get done. Thats why I think that Jaged here has the right basic idea in mind. I just don't think that this particular little stunt is the correct type of thing to do about it.

[Giovanni]

Hell... I'm saving up right now to buy a smart... may not be the most usefull vehicle to carry stuff but 10$ for 400 kilometers and being able to use bio-diesel is great.

But hey... most people want to roll in escalades and the such.

[Rbstr]

Why not a used VW Golf diesel or the like.

Probably safer, more practical on the scale of 100x, not ridiculous looking ect.

[Infernus]

If I ever see a smart on a north american road, I plan on driving through it.

Just simply driving through it.



Most people want to roll in Escalades, because look at how the alternative looks. And if you can afford and Escalade, do not bitch about gas.

I on the other hand am getting a VW GTI, they are quite nice.

[Giovanni]

If I ever see a smart on a north american road, I plan on driving through it.

Just simply driving through it.



Most people want to roll in Escalades, because look at how the alternative looks. And if you can afford and Escalade, do not bitch about gas.

I on the other hand am getting a VW GTI, they are quite nice.

You might be dissapointed by ramming into it... the thing has a rollcage wich makes it safe enough to get into the same accidents a normal car would. On top of the fact that it's light enough that ramming it will basicly just push it...

I kinda like the look plus it's even more economic then the golf. Oh and I get 2000$ back from the goverment and half my bio-diesel is payed by them as well.

I'll admit it looks odd but it's fun to drive and I mean... why would I need five places? I don't do big roadtrips... I don't do alot of shopping and I don't see myself buying anything big anytime soon (say furniture etc.)

Also... no kids... so meh... oh and good resale value since it's mercedes. (A bitch to repair thought)

[Knightwyvern]

... oh and good resale value since it's mercedes. (A bitch to repair thought)

Yea you're right about the repair thing. Just be prepared, Mercedes has some of the worst customer support in the industry.

[firecrackerNC]

I drive a 2004 V8 Tundra and I shall continue to drive it. Gas prices suck ass but Ill live. Im not gonna go homeless from em or anything so O well. I also quite enjoy the power in it heh

[Setari]

I drive a v4 camry and it still costs me less than $45 to fill up so I don't mind so much. I get annoyed, however, when the dumbasses who drive trucks with 12" lifts and 40,000-inch tires complain about how incredibly much they have to pay to fill up.

[Kam]

I have a 2003 Pathfinder that gets 15-19 mpg, which for an SUV is not bad. It costs me 35-45 US to fill the tank usually, and I fill it once a week so it's not bad. I'll probably have it for another six years at least.

The reason it seems people don't buy smart cars and hybrids is usually about looks, although they also tend to be more expensive. I've always wondered why say, Ford, doesn't just take the new Mustang that is selling like crazy and just replace the V8 with an efficient quite hybrid engine. There would be no difference in the exterior, and while the performance would be dramatically reduced, people would buy it because it doesn't look like a box.

[Infernus]

You might be dissapointed by ramming into it... the thing has a rollcage wich makes it safe enough to get into the same accidents a normal car would. On top of the fact that it's light enough that ramming it will basicly just push it...

I kinda like the look plus it's even more economic then the golf. Oh and I get 2000$ back from the goverment and half my bio-diesel is payed by them as well.

I'll admit it looks odd but it's fun to drive and I mean... why would I need five places? I don't do big roadtrips... I don't do alot of shopping and I don't see myself buying anything big anytime soon (say furniture etc.)

Also... no kids... so meh... oh and good resale value since it's mercedes. (A bitch to repair thought)

Paragraph 1: You are absolutely correct... running into it would just push it, not because it's light though. Well, not solely for that reason. The reason it would be pushed is the same reason it needs a roll-cage. It's center of mass is very high off the ground and has very little footprint because of the car's awkward shape. It's simple physics... tires have less torque.

Paragraph 2: You like the look? Beige box PCs have more style. I can't really argue on the other points though.

Paragraph 3: Do you have friends? Its the same concept of the guy that buys the lamborgini to show off how cool he is... but he can only carry around himself and one other person. AND IN THIS CASE, IT DOESN'T LOOK COOL!

In my situation, I pay at most 7 dollars for gas when I actually go out, which (other then the random store run or trip in town) is always with friends. In general theres always 5 of us, and we all split the night's gas bill.

When I drive it works out to be like 6 dollars a person. Its actually very economical.

Paragraph 4: Resale value... who's buying it? Either you sell it to someone else or back to the company. WHO ELSE WANTS TO BUY THAT? USED?! And the only reason the company can buy it back is because they sell other kinds of cars.

Name means nothing if the car is, in effect, shit. Example: Ford's Edsel.


Big whoo hooo for mercedes being able to market it in other countries... But in countries with the same mentality as the main portion of the US's population, I doubt a car like that would do well at all. Americans want pretty things, no matter the cost. Just look at basically any american social event.




This socio-economic rant brought to you by the american young urban professional mind

[Rbstr]

The used/CPO TDI Golf(or most anything else you can get in diesel) is a million times better to buy.
It'll cost the same or less(it will run on biodiesel as well), it'll be more fun to drive and will serve you well when you suddenly find that you need to carry more than one extra person or perhaps a medium sized backpack instead of your man-purse.

The smart is/was a novelty people got all excited about the thing and most have now realized it's not all that revolutionary or useful; subcompacts do the job much better.

[MrVicchio]

I have a better idea....

How about we use ye olde brains instead of playing stupid emotionally charged yet pointless games? ONE day of not filling up is more impotent then a 90 year old quadriplegic.

When was the last Oil Refinery built in America?

What is our current Refinery work load at?

How many different formula of Gasoline are refineries forced to make?

Spring is when the refineries shut down and reconfigure from winter heating oil and formula to summer time...

Answer those three questions and you'll see the REAL answer to the price of gas. Anything else is ignorance.

[Rbstr]

Do you know how refineries work? The majority of the operation is a distillation column.

The crude gets separated just the same year round.
All they do is change additives a fairly simple task(the main summer/winter blend issue is with diesel anyway; it gells when it gets cold). The oil companies simply use it as an excuse to raise prices so people bitch less.

I, for one, welcome higher prices as I've said before. We need a good hard lesson about living beyond a sustainable level.

[MrVicchio]

Do you know how refineries work? The majority of the operation is a distillation column.

The crude gets separated just the same year round.
All they do is change additives a fairly simple task(the main summer/winter blend issue is with diesel anyway; it gells when it gets cold). The oil companies simply use it as an excuse to raise prices so people bitch less.

I, for one, welcome higher prices as I've said before. We need a good hard lesson about living beyond a sustainable level.


Right, well you miss the point entirely about the formula. There are 19 different formula across the USA.

That hurts production, raises prices.

Our refineries are at near 100% running.

We haven't built a new one since '79.

So, now that you know this, you see the problem. If we increased the number of refineries we could produce more Gasoline, thus increasing supply, higher supply means lower costs. Be even better if there was ONE formula instead of 19.


As for your comment about gas prices being high being a good thing... I look out for the little guy,t he guy that is really hurt by these high prices. People that choose to harm the poor to make political statements are just plain mean spirited and heartless.

[Rbstr]

Looking out for the little man; from you of all people. Lota good your economics does them, lets keep on expanding that wealth gap, that little guy will love his job security in a perpetual lower class situation, I suppose.


Your not looking out for him at all, except in your dream world where more oil refineries = cheaper oil, without regard to the reality of using a resource that is little more than some puddles in the ground: The Oil's going to dry up.

By not looking into the long run you are fucking the little guy, hard.
Prices are going to go up and continue to go up and up and up. China and India are industrializing. Billions of people that didn't consume oil are going to start using it.
At the same time the oil that's easy to get is running out, whether you choose to believe sound science or not.
Not realizing this is ignorance of the highest order.

That why I make that statement. The little guy might be inconvenienced now, but in the long term he'll be saved from starving to death because we don't have the resources to keep our yields up.

Anyway this argument is pointless, I'll never see it your way, you'll never see it mine, it's just a waste of my time I'm done.

[MrVicchio]

Oil isn't the problem, go take an economic's 101 course.

If gas is cheaper, the little man has.. GASP! More money to spend on an education to improve his lot in life. Ya know, become one of them hard working rich folk you are so jealous about.. which is what this is all about.

Don't worry about "us running out of resources" ain't gonna happen while even your grand kids are alive, and the movement of technology makes a fair sure bet we'll have replaced oil by then ANYWAY.

So yes, I worry about the little guys real life while you quake in fear over what might happen 2-3 centuries from now.

And I want to be one of those evil rich guys, ya know lots of money to spend to employ others... which is how the world works.

[Kikinchikin]

I don't like paying 3 bucks a gallon. I'm worried about me right now. Sorry if it's selfish, but fact of the matter is, like Vic said, technology is developing at a pace that we'll likely have a complete alternative to oil in the next century.

[Peacemaker]

BTW Rob, all vehicles can run on bio deisel, dump strained cooking oil into any gasoline powered vehicle will run it.

[OneManArmy]

...

[Squeeky]

This thread is hilarity.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/nogas.asp

Cmon..every highschool kid spams this to their MySpace page every year. And the same argument about whether or not it would work is rehashed. :lol:

[Rbstr]

BTW Rob, all vehicles can run on bio deisel, dump strained cooking oil into any gasoline powered vehicle will run it.

A Gasoline engine will not run on diesel or cooking oil. Diesel and Gas engines run on a different principls for ignition, you know this right?


MrV: I just took a macro-economics class in fact I just took the final wednesday 95% in the class, I understand it perfectly fine.
I'm going to school to study the chemical industry, what are you again, what are your credentials?

We don't have enough oil to continue at current consumption with the way the rest of the world is industrializing. There isn't enough cheap oil - FOX news estimates less than 18 years before the peak hits. Eventually the price rises to a point where stuff like tar sand and oil shale becomes and that gives us a little longer before that peak hits, then we can do stuff with coal, and that's as far as technology goes now. It's far from centuries before it effects us.
All the while prices go up the supply curve is shifting left and demand is going right higher price at equilibrium with a higher quantity. Companies won't poor the dollars into alternative resources until it becomes more profitable than oil, the funny way oil demand works, highly inelastic, means that prices can get very very high before that point. Thats the econ 101.

You think I harbor some kind of animosity toward those rich folk? I am one of those privileged with all sorts of opportunity because of my parents. I've got no jealousy.

[MrVicchio]

Peak oil is a scam designed to create artificial scarcity and jack up prices while giving the state an excuse to invade our lives and order us to sacrifice our hard-earned living standards.

Publicly available CFR and Club of Rome strategy manuals from 30 years ago say that a global government needs to control the world population through neo-feudalism by creating artificial scarcity. Now that the social architects have de-industrialized the United States, they are going to blame our economic disintegration on lack of energy supplies.

Globalization is all about consolidation. Now that the world economy has become so centralized through the Globalists operations, they are going to continue to consolidate and blame it on the West's "evil" overconsumption of fossil fuels, while at the same time blocking the development and integration of renewable clean technologies.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/archives/peak_oil/index.htm

And according to this site, we hit peak oil in Nov'05.

The American empire is an energy junkie in its death throes, punching for new veins and final fixes, knowing that the supplies of its drug of choice -- cheap oil -- are virtually depleted.

According to geologist Kenneth Deffeyes, author of Beyond Oil: The View from Beyond Hubbert***8217;s Peak, this long-anticipated world oil peak is now -- Thanksgiving 2005. The holocaust of imperial thrashing -- epitomized by the Bush administration***8217;s Peak Oil-fueled criminal atrocities -- promises to intensify, along with the denial and cover-up.

Confirmation of Peak Oil crisis is everywhere. Oil supplies may be lower than OPEC wants to admit. The second largest oil field in the world, situated in Kuwait, is running dry. The US trade deficit just hit another all-time high.

And still others are finding oil where oil shouldn't be found,and claim it's not fossil created but a natural earth substance and we are in zero danger of running out.

Sorry I'll go with the what is, not the "what if"

that's like moving to Canada because you fear global warming.

[Rbstr]

Peak could have hit already, the nature of the issue doesn't make it readily apparent. The theory has considerable support from with America's own oil production curve.

Also find any reputable science for this non-biological origin of oil. There is no theory, it's a simple "It might be made differently" there's no chemical basis, there's no proposed process. It's psuedoscience at it's worst a this point.

Also FFS use a reasonable source to try and debunk me.

Prison planet: Cho(VT shooting) was a video-game mind controlled assassin? http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/190407mindcontrolled.htm
The video game myth from VT was debunked 2 weeks ago This site is a bunck of conspiracy bunk.

What does moving to canada have to do anything, moving has no effect on policy? Your metaphor needs clarification.

[Hamma]

This argument sucks, I am with Oma on this one, I'll be burning the shit out of gas on my V8 until it goes out of style.

[OneManArmy]

Rock on!!!

[Infernus]

This argument blows.

Why can't one of you just stab the other already.

[Lartnev]

Setting each other alight with petrol would be more appropriate ;)

[MrVicchio]

Rbstr,

The point of moving to Canada was a metaphor, perhaps not my best, but basically moving now because some people are claiming that by 2100 Earths gonna be an oven.

Of course.. 30 years ago we were gonna be an ice box... so....

Meh guys it's a little disagreement on oil, Rbstr is convinced that we need to stick it to the little guy and run oil prices up to hit those filthy stinking evil rich guys that are running poor mother earth dry of resources and ruining our and our future generations future for a quick good life now.

I have more faith in man then that, and want to help the little guy out here and now. I also don't buy into the wealth gap arguement. It's oh so much p---- envy.

[Infernus]

I'm an engineer, not an economist.

I just laugh at the people that are studying to become petroleum engineers...

PE:"I'm gonna work for chevron!"
Everyone else:"I'll still have a job in 50 years!"


Silly ChemE's

[MrVicchio]

They'll have jobs too, Oil ain't in any danger of running out.

[Giovanni]

They'll have jobs too, Oil ain't in any danger of running out.

Where do you get your drugs? Cause you'd have to be on drugs to beleive that....

[Lonehunter]

They'll have jobs too, Oil ain't in any danger of running out.

Oil will be the least used Fuel well before it runs out.

It's not that everyone will realize it's bad for the Earth, it's when the poverty class of America can no longer afford gas for a vehicle. (Any idea what % of Americans make less then $25,000 a year?) Since there are no electric cars people of that income can buy, this will encourage more bikes, mopeds, busses etc. Which will help our fatass problem and help the Earth.

I wish gas was $20 a galon

[MrVicchio]

Where do you get your drugs? Cause you'd have to be on drugs to beleive that....

Oh it's gonna eventually run out, but not in 50 years, sorry.

[MrVicchio]

Oil will be the least used Fuel well before it runs out.

It's not that everyone will realize it's bad for the Earth, it's when the poverty class of America can no longer afford gas for a vehicle. (Any idea what % of Americans make less then $25,000 a year?) Since there are no electric cars people of that income can buy, this will encourage more bikes, mopeds, busses etc. Which will help our fatass problem and help the Earth.

I wish gas was $20 a galon
You too, another poor people hater.

[Lonehunter]

You too, another poor people hater.

Just b/c I recognize a fact that will hurt poor people doesn't mean I hate them.

I am poor, and so are most the people around me. Min wage in WV is still $5.

[MrVicchio]

And Minimum wage is for high schoolers. If you can't get over min wage... whose fault is that?

[Baneblade]

If you can't find a job that pays over minimum wage...you aren't looking.

[Infernus]

And Minimum wage is for high schoolers. If you can't get over min wage... whose fault is that?

WOW!


You really ARE out of touch with reality.

Take my family for instance. Both of my parents never went to college... they never saw the need, and in a very real sense for people that graduated high school in 1972 there really wasn't any need. My mother and father were both able to get their jobs without college education.

They struggle to keep their heads above water. As did their parents before them, and as did their parents before them.

THATS THE WHOLE OF PHILADELPHIA... and many other urban centers. And I mean it, on the whole, thats how it works out.

Me and my 5 best friends now have to go to college. My friend Michelle is a Biology genius, but her father is a painter. Michelle won't be making minimum wage when she gets out of school... but the 7 years that she is, she's on the negative side of the ledger, and her parents are trying desperately to pay for it. BUT SOMETHING IS GOING TO GIVE.

Some people never have the chance to move above the minimum wage line, and its not because of anything they did... its because of pre-existing circumstances that have been in place for generations.


And If you dare say I'm against the poor person I will kill you, because I remember very well where I came from. And It sure as hell wasn't a gated community. It was a south philadelphia slum, where people like you wouldn't survive a day. Don't you dare say I'm against the poor.

I still am poor.

[OneManArmy]

odd you remember where you came from, a vagina.... yet you hate them and scorn them...

why should I believe anything you say? :p

[Lonehunter]

Shit, no college and living in WV there is no job that pays more then $8 an hour. I'm at $8 and I ref paint ball for extra cash. I see all this talk about how these other countries are 3rd world and need our help. FUCK THEM I see that every day in the states.
sorry to go off topic

[Infernus]

[QUOTE=Lonehunter187;548965]Shit, no college and living in WV there is no job that pays more then $8 an hour. I'm at $8 and I ref paint ball for extra cash. I see all this talk about how these other countries are 3rd world and need our help. FUCK THEM I see that every day in the states.
sorry to go off topic[/QUOTE
]

Actually very much to the poin
t.

The man in the street doesn't care about the so called "big picture". He quite literally can't afford to. The man in the street knows one thing: his own problems. But he learns to deal.

If gas prices were $20 dollars, it would be the best thing for the country. Because the poor person would learn to deal. I would, you would, most people that live in any major metropolitan area would.

Saying that impossible-to-pay gas prices are "anti-poor" is like saying that **** are "pro-nazi". Its just plain wrong. And if it's right you obviously don't know the poor.

The poor don't live in the suburbs and make a daily commute that requires a gas-guzzling Hummer. They live much closer to the metropolitan areas, where the commute is short, and there are many viable alternatives (mass transit for example). It's basically really simple:

John works as a painter. John doesn't make a lot of money. John lives in the city, where he paints houses and offices, etc. It would be unfeasible for John to live further away from the city because of the added costs.

Its the damn truth, and it isn't anti-poor, its fucking real and I live it every day of my life.

[OneManArmy]

fuck you philly man, come down here in the country then talk. We could not afford high gas prices. we dont have buses and or the ability to walk or ride a bike to work.

and we are not fucking rich around here.


so while your crazy ideas may help your community it will fuck others.to put it in your terms.... in the ass hard. no lube.

[Kikinchikin]

And not to attempt to overshadow more dire problems, but extremely high gas prices would not only fuck rural people, but also the all too big suburban middle class.

[Infernus]

fuck you philly man, come down here in the country then talk. We could not afford high gas prices. we dont have buses and or the ability to walk or ride a bike to work.

and we are not fucking rich around here.


so while your crazy ideas may help your community it will fuck others.to put it in your terms.... in the ass hard. no lube.


Its not just a philly thing... its an everywhere thing.

And you totally missed the entire point of the post, both of you.

It all balances out... If you can't afford to live somewhere and making a living there, then you don't live there.

My heart bleeds for the suburbanite slob with their two car garage and SUV, it really does.

[OneManArmy]

so because you have a great idea. we should all move away from our homes to live where you do? quite simply fuck you.

one more thing though. how many farms do you have in downtown philly? I'd like to see those grocery stores stay full once everyone has to move to the city and abandon the farm country because you deem it too spread out.

and you spout your economic genius to these poor saps.

It's not oh if you cant afford to live there then you move. a sudden major change like that would quite literally fuck this country up.

gas prices don't just reflect joe guy and his hummer. All sorts of business buy gas for their fleet of vehicles. make them pay more and we have to pay more for goods and services just so they can cover the cost.

for example shipping that food to philly no longer cost $300 it now costs $1000 because of the cost of gas. bet your city poor will be feeling that increase.

or how about public transportation. most buses still run on gas, not to mention airplanes and I'm pretty sure most trains still use diesel. (though don't hold me to the train thing I don't know that one)

also police cars, fire trucks, ambulances.... yup all use gas, and they don't get it for free....

[Infernus]

Actually, theres a fair number of farms right across the bridge from downtown philly... indeed within 10 miles.

But that's neither here nor there. I see your point, but a lot of my points still stand. High gas prices, for the inner city folks, aren't a "bad" thing. Or "anti-poor". And if a suburbanite slob (a group of people for which I have no respect whatsoever) cannot afford to make his commute daily, that is his own problem.

All I was simply trying to say, was that for a large portion of the population these somewhat-high-but-not-really gas prices are worse then a $20 gas price.

But alas: I'm arguing with a man that admitedly owns a gas-guzzler... and who has recently purchased another vehicle.

EDIT: Nevertheless, I digress... I have better things to do with my time then argue about bullshit economics/social politics.

[OneManArmy]

hey if they ran on hyrdogen or some other form of renewable energy that was mother earth friendly or whatever, and as long as they had the same power or better. I'm all for it.

But honestly we're in too deep to 'cut the cord' like that. this has got to be a gradual change or this economy will collapse. maybe not end of the world style.. but It wouldn't be pretty.

[Rayder]

Why must alternative fuel cars have the same "power" or better than gas powered cars?

[Kikinchikin]

Because people, myself include, like to go fast.

And I resent the generalization that everyone living in the suburbs is a slob. There's a difference between what you stereotype as "suburbanite slobs," and people who just happen to live in the suburbs.

[Baneblade]

I own and operate a 1985 Mercury Grand Marquis. On its best days it gets about 15.5 mpg. Now while this sounds bad and expensive, the cost from gas is easily offset by the sub-$100 insurance per month and not having to make any kind of payments.

Now if I had bought a more fuel efficient car, I'd be better off...but I decided to buy what I wanted to drive, and I made it happen.

I was making $5.70 an hour when I bought my car and not exactly living for free. My current job is only paying $10.75/hour, but its a lot easier to manage, and frankly...I'll be only going up from there.

I am certain that I'll be driving my car for a long long time if I take care of it.

PS: Any tips on improving gas mileage would be appreciated, superchargers and/or turbos maybe? It has Ford's rather popular 5.0 (same as the Mustang, but with 2 barrel carb instead of four).

[OneManArmy]

switch it over to fuel injected. :p and remove the entire interior and any other weight you don't need.

[Rbstr]

Yeah more power generally = more fuel, though this is not always the case.
A turbo or supercharger ups the amount of air allowing you to burn more fuel. Not what your looking for.

There's not much you can do with a carb, OMAs got it on the head.

You might be able to switch in a taller differential or a taller over drive gear, You'll accelerate slower(overall and in the particular gear, respectively) but you engine won't need to rev as high to maintain a certain speed(assuming it's got the torque to turn the wheels)

I've heard of people with old hondas and Diesel VWs to get ridiculous 4/5/6th gear mileage.

[MrVicchio]

If an alternative car can provide the range, and "refueling" advantage of Gas Cars... all would be good.

[Rbstr]

Do you know anything about the more mainstream alternatives?

Biofuels don't count as alternative?(though those are a poor longterm solution in current form) They don't require new fueling infrastructure. Biodiesel runs in unmodified vehicles, ethanol can only require a remapped ECU and possible tweaks to fuel injection and timing. (Ethanol essentially works like very high octane gas, you'll make more power; though it's energy density is less so you do get less mpg).

Even hydrogen cars will, with more research, refuel just like gas cars.
New ways to store hydrogen at lower pressures are being developed right now. They make use of interstitial spaces in specifically designed crystals that absorb hydrogen kind of like a sponge.
The thing is these kind of technologies are barely more than dreams in a scientists mind right now; there's not a whole lot of funding out there. We completely lack a long term energy policy.

[OneManArmy]

Not trying to sound crack pot, but I believe that an alternative source could of been found already and I'm sure its already known what would work, the problem is they are trying to find a better fuel they can still profit off of.

"they" being everyone currently involved in the fuel market. form private companies to governments....

but who knows. I'm no scientist.

[Rbstr]

We know of plenty of possible alternatives are out there. I wouldn't make it out in such a conspiratorial manner.

It's more like big pharmaceuticals where the profitability of drugs takes precedence to common good when it comes to research $. Chemicals that can't be patented don't get research money from companies because they could be made as generics.

[Kikinchikin]

The shuttles at my school (James Madison) use french fry oil (or something like that, I know it's got something to do with food). Supposedly this works pretty well.

[MrVicchio]

The problem is infrastructure and some tech hurdles. Despite all the wild claims of either there being a suppressed tech that big oil buried... (wouldn't they just buyinto/invest into this new tech because even if Gas goes away millions of barrels of oil do other things...) there ain't a shred of proof.

[Electrofreak]

The shuttles at my school (James Madison) use french fry oil (or something like that, I know it's got something to do with food). Supposedly this works pretty well.

Yeah, converted diesel engines can run on vegetable oil, cooking oil, etc, french fry oil included,

Could you imagine running out of gas, going inside a restaurant and saying "Hey, could I have a cup of vegetable oil? My car has no fuel."

[Kikinchikin]

Would be pretty handy IMO.

[OneManArmy]

of course until the government bans fried foods, because you know Americans need someone else to think for them....