Naval combat

[Galapogos]

Some people have brought up implementing naval combat in planetside next, and it was also brought up in a few questions in the survey. I was just wondering how close to scale warships could be, especially in a mmo like planetside, because I always think it ruins the realism in a game when objects are not at least roughly to scale. I was also curious as to whether there are any physics engines that would allow players to roam freely through a moving object like a ship, instead of being stuck in a specific seat like every game I have seen before that has vehicles.

[ANaKeR]

I can't see many reasons for them to put battleship sized ones in the game. Perhaps smaller destroyers slightly larger than the loadstar would be useful for bombarding the coastline. However most battles take place far in land so they would be pretty useless. If there were island chains it would start making sense.

I don't think i've come across a physics engine that accurately handles standing on top of a moving object. Usually the person is surfing all over the place.

[Galapogos]

I think if they made it so all the continents were on the same planet like they originally were, maybe you could have most warp gates not be on land but be in various spots off the coast, or have some way in which ships can travel through the ocean in between the continents. I know this really wishful thinking (especially since soe is the developer), but I think it would be really cool if soe could integrate large scale naval warfare into the gameplay, with a strong interdependence among the different kinds of ships, and also be able to use ships as a means of starting an invasion, supplying forces, as well as bombardment. I really hope that what soe meant by naval combat is more than just patrol boats.

[Kumoblade]

Naval warfare could be alright if it was done right, but most battleships spend their time firing long ranged weaponry deep inland which wouldn't be fun at all, really.

As for physics and moving targets, it wouldn't be that tough. Even a game as silly as world of warcraft has player character control on moving vehicles. (Zepplins, Boats, and Sky Ships, Deep Run Tram, etc..)

Getting free-form movement wouldn't be that difficult if you treat a vehicle as a mobile zone so to speak. (not as in a separate instance, however that would be silly) UT engine uses zoning between Rooms and such to break down load times, etc.. etc.. They're seemless. Its essentially a placeholder. Having a Vehicle as a zone wouldn't be much different, and you'd just move with the vehicle unless you take up a drivers seat.

[JackEarthrider]

I think the concept of ships would be pretty cool.

It would make a really interesting invasion launch point (like a big transport/carrier ship) off the coast by which to launch raids.

I think that there needs to be some maps where the inland is accessible by rivers and canals, that way the ships have something to do when the fight moves inland. (not all maps though)

I'd be nice if the larger ships had Air pads (but not vehicle pads) as it would make them sort of a moving air base of sorts.

And of course the ships wouldn't (and shouldn't) be OP because they would be slow, very easy to hit by air (think libs) and would probably have a pretty heavy arch and slow rate of fire on most of their guns.

[ANaKeR]

Hovercraft would be great! I think it's Hossin that has the shallow water marshy forest where they would be useful. But then again the Magrider is pretty much that already although it goes slower on the water than on land. They could have a light armored floating vehicle that goes relatively fast on water and much slower on land, equipped similar to the Heavy Assault Buggies.

[Galapogos]

Another idea I have relating to this is to get rid of OSes, and instead a player can request an artillery strike or naval bombardment by marking a spot with a lazer pointer, which would have to be confirmed and initiated by a player controlled artillery unit or bombardment capable ship. I think this would be a good way of cutting down on the amount of OS like strikes once most or many players meet the requirements to initiate such strikes.

[Galapogos]

Hovercraft would be really cool as long as they were accessible to all empires, and if they had their own use on the field other than just the ability to hover.

[ANaKeR]

If they did have large ships, I would imagine them looking something like this (sorry about the size)

http://www.alicia-logic.com/capsimages/5e_048HotelFhlostin.jpg
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-q4-07/MovieMate_72_5thElement_cruise_large.jpg
The Fifth Element (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119116/) (1997)

[Kumoblade]

I think to make Naval combat more appealing would be to add a fuel gauge to Aircrafts so they had places to fuel up. Mobile waypoints and such.

Otherwise, Aircraft is just more desirable in every way. Faster, better vantage point, etc..
Stealth subs could be interesting in serving counters against those trying to destroy Battleships, etc..

[Galapogos]

Thats what I was thinking, because aircraft in real life don't have unlimited fuel. Ships could also be useful for transporting supplies if supplies were needed for bases, such as weapons, ammo, armor, etc., which I think could add a stronger dependence on support roles as well as add to the strategy of the game.

[Kumoblade]

Large ships can carry a lot more troops/vehicles into combat as well, however, this would kind of kill that 'jumping into the fight feeling' that people tend to like.

I'm all about the preparation, getting pumped and ready for war then charging into the fray instead of hopping into a half eaten sandwich of a fight. If they could implement it, it would be great, but the Scale of PlanetSide would have to be Twice as large as it currently is to Incorporate such massive ships, everything they'd carry and the battles they'd bring.

I'm not sure the Devs would be up to that. Especially if Giant Naval battles were ended in a matter of minutes, and everyone on board died. That would piss a LOT of people off, myself included to have to go back and do it again =P. The Ships would have to be massive and take a serious Pounding that could last close to hours to destroy/capture.

[Galapogos]

Oh I really doubt that objects of that size could even be implemented into an online game without intense lag, even if the ships were scaled down to where the ships were very still large in comparison to the rest of the units it could still be fun, just as long as they scaled down the crew as well, which I think would work out better because there is a lot more of the crew on these ships that don't really have roles fun enough to put in a game anyways.

[Firefly]

I once did a huge fucking write-up on a Planetside Naval expansion. I can't find it.

The concept was fairly simple.

Players could get a rebreather implant to allow for moving underwater, or they could equip an underwater MAX suit, or they could get in a vehicle (surface and sub-surface). Conventional weapons wouldn't fire underwater (especially Vanu lasers, I hope you try it and it electrocutes you you Barney-coloured homosexuals) so you'd need a specific set of underwater assault rifles.

For vehicles, I'd come up with a few small-scale prime movers - both surface and sub-surface. Sub-surface would've been primarily one-person, designed mainly like an ATV and designed to hunt and take down surface vessels. Surface vessels were more like an aquatic Sunderer. You can easily resolve the problem that Anaker brought up re: walking on a moving vehicle (something that BF1942 resolved) just by making it so you don't run around on a boat. You have crew and passenger positions. Vehicles would have a common-pool variant and empire-specific. Two types of vehicles, one fire support vehicle (think battleships shelling inland) and one direct-action vehicle (ship-to-ship or ship-to-offshore platform).

Bases at sea were either a shipyard which would spawn these vehicles, or an offshore oilrig type of platform which could also launch aircraft. You would be able to infiltrate these bases by swimming underwater or driving a boat up to them and climbing up ladders. For certain continents I'd even planned an aircraft carrier base to be fought over.

That was basically it.

[Dorest0rm]

Naval combat would be awesome with Red Alert like troop launchers

YouTube- Command & Conquer Red Alert 3 - Trailer

@ 27 sec.

[ANaKeR]

The problem with the marine environment is that its to flat and boring. If the developers are going to add naval combat, they should add more interesting marine features, like:



foggy/misty areas with reduced visibility for some cover
lagoons, rivers, lakes for interior continent access, surrounded by high cliffs/forest cover
island chains with erupting volcano's poking above the surface
large wet and dry caves (no accessing via warp gates) with surface access along its length

And the players should definitely be able to swim (none of the walking on the ocean floor). Perhaps instead of getting fatigued and drowning, have a giant marine creature come and eat you after a certain amount of time (client side).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Fernando_noronha.jpg/230px-Fernando_noronha.jpghttp://www.surtsey.is/pict/pp_pict_eng/eruption/images/07_gos_gap_01.jpg

[Kumoblade]

I do like the idea of Assaulting a Jungle base through a Rain-forest mangrove into a giant cavern beneath a temple on an Air boat. :rofl:

That would make my day. :groovy:

[DviddLeff]

TBH I would rather see space based combat than naval, as then you could have a space war, air war and ground war all stacked on top of each other.

Orbital strikes could only be called down by squad commanders if the relevant craft was in orbit, or even better just have them call for general fire support on an area and then artillery, bombers and large ships in orbit get a target on their HUD showing them where to strike; adding a bit of human error and skill into calling down strikes.

In space you could have them fighting for control of orbital stations, which would control drop pods heading for the land below.

Some of the space craft could enter atmosphere, and act as mobile bases hovering above the combat zone, while existing aircraft could head upwards into space and duel without ground pounders interfering. You could also have infantry being transported in Phantasms and Galaxies onto enemy ships, attempting to capture or destroy them.

Space combat would add an extra dynamic to existing fights, while naval will just spread everything out thin; I would like to see it, but I would much prefer space.

[JackEarthrider]

What your saying reminds me a little bit of Battlefront 2; only problem was that it was an old game so they had to make the space battles and the ground battles two separate sections (that was Xbox oringinal by the way).

I agree that it would be very interesting to see a space dynamic involved, but there would need to be some sort of "fire by radar" feature so the space guns could actually focus on something. And there would need to be a way for the ground fighters to fly up there and disable/destroy the ships otherwise it would be too one sided.

All and all I think its a good idea, im mostly just worried about implementation and logistics.

[ANaKeR]

yeah, Space combat is quite different than Naval combat and it's something to think about (perhaps in a different thread). I would like to see space combat also, but it could get complicated to balance.

Getting back to Naval combat, discussions about surface vehicles have been brought up.

What about sub-surface vehicles/combat?
What about sub-surface bases?
Any thoughts?

Personally, I think it would be the last think to implement after every other aspect to do with the surface is worked out.

[JackEarthrider]

I'd be wary of underwater bases, in RTS games that implement it underwater bases only serve to overcomplicate things.

Now ships big enough that they serve as floating bases I would have no problem with whatsoever (in fact that would be great). However, I think that submersable stuff would only work in a deticated naval combat game.

[Galapogos]

Submersible aircraft would be pretty cool, especially if you could choose the weapons like you can with bfrs, since that would allow it to have different roles.

[JackEarthrider]

I just had a thought from one of my previous posts. What if one of the maps was a dedicated naval combat map!

That being that each side has a major ship and they have to search around the waters with hovering craft and aircraft to blow each others carriers up.
Submerseable craft would work great in a map like that, so would smaller ships.

Thats not to say there wouldn't be ships in other areas, but it would be kinda cool to have a predominatly ship focused map (one with high water, dotted with tiny islands).

Anyway just a thought (if abiet unrealistic)