Command

[basti]

Repost of Forumside, because im sure the discussion here will be more useful than the general tl;dr spam on forumside. :/

Leading?

Leading is complicated, very complicated.

You have to take alot of stuff into account, make yourself famous and well known as a commander, keep that reputation, etc. Its a whole little game for itself.

And i love that game.

Because of that, PSN seriously needs to fix the issues PS had.

As said already, everything was fine at the beginning. A few CR5s, most of them cared, and if some new CR5 came up who didnt give a crap, he would be quiet on /comall. If a hard case popped up who would just counterglobal everything to annoy everyone, he usually ended up on ignore by alot of people.

But at some point, not that long ago, to many CR5s were around, and the structure slowly faded into the abyss, together with the population.

There is no way to prevent that from happening again. If PSNext goes down to just one server (after many years), only the Vets will stay, and just as in PS right now, most of those Vets will have at least one CR5 (i got two VS cr5s...)

But, what PSnext can do, is to give us a layout to form a structure, rather than just the possiblility to write to everyone.

To make it simple, i put this model onto PS current command system. Im pretty sure PSnext will have it somewhat different, but i rather take old and make it fresh than just creating something completly new that isnt even close to what PS is currently or what PSnext may be. ;)

Up to and including CR4, everything stays the same.

Once you reach CR5, you can choose between being a Platoon Leader (cant think of a better name atm, need ideas!), or a Commander.You can switch between the roles once a week, means you you switch, you have to wait a week before you can switch again.

Platoon leader: All the handy CR5 tools like Big OS etc. But NO /comall etc! Platoon leaders also have their own /c chat. They can read CR4 /sitreps, and can do /sitreps for Battle Commanders and above.

Now, the real new stuff:

3 new sub Command ranks coming with choosing a commander:

Battle Commander

Continental Commander

Global Leader

Those 3 have a few things in Common: They dont have a CR5 OS, they keep the small CR4 OS. They share the same /c chat, and have the ability to see more stuff on the map, like Reval enemys of each other.

But they also got different roles to fufill.

Battle Commander: These are the guys who take care of the micro managment. They form and lead Tank raids, Max crashes, Gal drops, stuff like that. They tell you what entrance to your base needs more people, what the enemy is doing etc.

All their actions only work in the Battle Area, and that area is chosen by the current Continental Commander. Battle Commander actions include: chat to all friendly players in that area (/com blablaba), waypoints visible to all friendly players in that area, Battleplans visible to all friendly players in that area.

Continental Commander: He manages the overall continental strategy. What base to attack, from where to attack, what base to defend, etc.

Can write to all friendly players on the continent he is chosen to lead, but has to be on that continent. Can also do Waypoints for everyone as well as battleplans, but can also do waypoints and Plans only visible to the Battle Commanders. Gains a second reveal enemys that got a extremly long reuse timer, but shows enemys in a much greater area (the entire continent maybe? Could be to much).

The most imporant thing he has to do is to choose the battle area. How to: Select one Base as the target to attack, or defend in case its a friendly base, and one base where to pull vehicles from. Would be the closest base always. All friendly players could see that, and know exactly where to be without any need to do a /com. It could even give a annoucment every time the target is changed, maybe combined with something that lets players think "oh, something new is going on, let me quickly check the map".

The Area between and around the Target and the origin is the battle area. Technically, a straight line between the two bases, and every player x Meters/feet close to that line is within the battle area. On top of that, double the SOI size for Origin and Target base also belongs to the battle area.

Global Commander: They tell you what continent to go to. they are the ONLY ones with the ability to do a /comall as well as write to every continent. They can also select continents and choose them to be the Primary/secondary or whatever target, up to a fixed number depending on the amount of continents in the game and the amount of players currently on (no point to choose 6 targets if your pop can only support 3). Players who are on the Primary/Secondary/whatever target get a BEP bonus.

Selection:

Continental Commander: The Continental Commander is chosen directly by the Battle Commanders. A simple vote system, and whoever currently has the most votes is the Continental Commander. If Votes change, Commander change, instantly. Means if you screw up, you get replaced. :>

Global Commander: There are several of them, like 3-5, depending on god knows whatever (just choose a number how many you want). There are several to allow make it much more likley that there is one of them online and playing at any given time. Every Commander can vote who shall become Global Commander. One Vote per Commander, you can change your vote at every time. Once every week (sunday?) the votes are count and the 3 / 4 / 5 Commander with the most votes become Global Commanders.

In case no Global Commander is on, Commanders can do a quick vote to choose a Emergency Global Commander. He got the same abilitys as the normally chosen Global Commanders, but will only stay Emergency Global Commander until a regular Global Commander gets online and and choses to fufill his job (a message window with "Commander XYZ has been chosen as emergency Commander, do you want to replace him and do your job? Yes / Not yet )

The GTFO system:

In case some tart chooses to be a Commander just to annoy people, EVERY commander can start a degrade vote. If more that 50% of the online commanders choose yes for that vote, the annoying twat gets instantly degraded to be a Platoon leader. He may choose to be a commander again after a few hours (rather than a week, in case he just got a short brain lag).

If he chooses to be a commander again and starts to annoy people once more, means another vote is made and he is degraded once more, he cannot choose to be a commander again for a longer period of time.

Pretty much like the current grief system. Screw up, get locked, get unlocked, screw up again, get locked even longer. Just without loosing the ability to play. ;)

Comments? Ideas?

Will improve later, once someone postet something useful :>

[MgFalcon]

This is an amazing concept, although I would like to see better implementation of outfit leaders into the command presence. Granted they should already be cr5, but it's still a swing vote on their agenda for where to send their troops. Your idea of battle commander has a lot of similarities of what an outfitleader should be doing, but to say every outfitleader to take this position would be silly. They at least should have the command chat open with battle commanders so they have logical input and vote status.

That was just my fee thoughts, amazing idea though. I really hated when some ass would get on and spam /comall counters and causing the zerg to disperse all over the planet lol

[Tikuto]

Telling people what to do in their game, for most of the attempts, does not work especially if they're paying for it.

What I suggest is let everyone command so that Commanders can make the decisions (not orders). e.g. Everyone could have a Laze Point, they use it and Commanders see it on their map. There the 'Officers in Command' (like an ever-changing pool of selected commanders) then make decisions for their artillery, air or orbital strikes.

[basti]

Telling people what to do in their game, for most of the attempts, does not work especially if they're paying for it.

What I suggest is let everyone command, and then Commanders can make the decisions (not orders).

years of planetside has showed two things: You are wrong, and you are wrong.
You can lead people, if they trust you. It works, plenty of guys did it, including myself.
letting everyone command is what we currently have, and now take a look at /c ...

[Hamma]

I really like your ideas on this. One of my fears with a voting system you mentioned and that is that the tard Outfits.. (you all know them) with tons of members monopolize the vote. I'm not sure if there is any major way around that unless EVERYONE on the server has a vote.

That being said, PS as it is now really lacked a solid command system. The idea of CR5's was a great one and had allot of potential. But most of the abilities you got aside from CR5 OS and Continent chat were just "oOoOoO shiny!" and not really useful. I mean who used to draw on the map any useful tactics? Most people just drew penises and the like.

Command Rank (if it exists) in PlanetSide Next should really have tons of information available to them. Realtime data provided on what is going on in the battles. This is something we never had in PS other than "HotSpots" which were fairly useless. Your ideas are sound it would be a matter of how to implement the selection process.
Telling people what to do in their game, for most of the attempts, does not work especially if they're paying for it.
This is true, but I still think there is a place for CR5's. Early in the game they were an integral part of attacks. Sure some people didn't want to listen.. but quite a few did and it was enough to make a difference. Not like it is now where people login and say hi to everyone over global.

[Barbapapa123]

hmm interesting...
my only concern is the tall heirarchy of command, it's probly best to have 1 set of commanders with one of them outranking everyone. and let the squad, platoon, and outfit leaders takecare of the operational management.

I know another MMO with many good features that PS:N could emulate. One such feature was a democratic vote of the whole faction to elect a leader for a week. the leader appoints 4 council members, each giving a special AOE buff to nearby frendlies (mostly weak ones like + 5%hp a buff nonetheless). the council have their own special global chat for commanding people,and could launch nukes (OS counterpart but really huge area, and only council members could buy and launch one). they only coordinated troops through chat which was quite a remarkable thing as nearly everybody followed their orders.

some of these people rule for months, depending on their popularity and apeal as a leader. the only problem is PS:N is an FPS and im not quite sure if people follow or cooperate.

[Bags]

Voting is always abusable.

[Gogita]

I read this somewhere on the official PS forums, which I found quite interesting.

What about making Command experience diminish over time and diminish faster the higher CR you are. This would mean that you do not lead for some period, you will get demoted in CR, so you will have to lead constantly in order for you to maintain a high CR.

There is only one flaw in this... being squad leader often does not mean being a good leader....
Haven't figured out yet how this can be solved, any ideas?

[Hamma]

I'm not entirely sure there is a good solution for that. The problem is the asshat ratio in gaming is extremely high. Asshats tend to congregate and promote each other to higher and higher ranks. :lol:

[Firefly]

I don't need CR5 for anything other than the ability to blow the fuck out of an NC or VS AMS. I command based on a variety of factors, none of which pertain to a video game. My outfit is a military-style organisation and can accomplish the aforementioned tasks based on its leadership, many of whom learned that Art in the ranks of various military organisations.

CR5 was a means to an end. That end was usually telling ignorant CR5s where they could put their CUD.

As for voting... you've seen what happens when any idiot who thinks they have an opinion has access to a computer. You end up with Sarah Palin. I'm sure many of you remember the term "zergfit". An outfit that invites just about anyone into it ranks and allows them to run amok on voting issues is as much of a threat to successful combat operations as a guy named Smiley777 or GODJOEY in TR CR5 chat talking about how many peanuts were in their shit just now.

And in all honesty, I don't have time to answer every single vote that comes my way in-game. I'd rather be killing your avatars.

[Tikuto]

Ok. Suggestion Time.


Militants, Officers & Commanders
Based on the previous system of squad leaders, platoon leaders and command ranks.

Leaders each zone/continent (## capacity):
1st priority of Commanders - CR5,4,3,2,1 (battalion leaders, platoon leaders & squad leaders)
2nd priority of Officers - CR0 (platoon leaders & squad leaders)
non-commander, Militant actions: Make suggestive actions for selected Officers & Commanders of the zone/continent.
e.g. The typical militant can laser paint where's best to place an orbital strike, and then the commanders can decide and execute that action at the appointed location.
Officer or Commander actions: Make reasonable or unreasonable decisions and executions of responsible Commanding abilities like an orbital strike, air strike, BFR activation.
Speak to each other with text chat or always-active voice chat: communication is essential!Command Experience would be made or unmade from "Evaluation Votes":
Each decision is viewed by all leaders as if they're proposing an executable action. Prompting executable actions.
Each execution by one person is then voted either Bad[X] or Good[✔] from the whole pool of continental leaders. Mostly good votes increases Command Experience. Mostly Bad votes decreases Command Experience.
More voters equals more accuracy or inaccuracy and a greater result.



Effectively the players ultimately decide who's the best Commander(s) (CR5).
Effectively all empires ultimately realize who the better Empire - who is most cooperative.

[Infektion]

Tikuto, I hope that profile picture is really you. I'm having such a laugh at the ugliness!

[DviddLeff]

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/command-overhaul

See above for my ideas on Companies, CR requiring cert points, CEP decay, squad missions and more.

[Tikuto]

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/command-overhaulCEP Decay could be different. CEP could be decreased by votes from other people. After an executable CR ability like the Orbital Strike there would be a small vote on the map beside the execution.
If it's a good execution you expect good votes [✔] and if it's a poor execution you expect bad votes [X].
Executing command abilities are only able if you a leader of sorts (excluding Outfit leader) to command with your comrades on your zone/continent.

sound cool? :P

[SgtSnarf]

What about an interface that allows you to pull up all available CR5 commanders that are presently logged in and active.

http://members.wolfram.com/jtodd/leader.jpg

With an easy-to-use toggle interface, you can select the one(s) that you want to follow and you will only see their global broadcasts. This makes it easy to filter out the noise and to pro-actively choose the people you respect and actually want to follow. You could even add additional features to this interface that introduce additional communication tools and leadership abilities.

It's much easier to build a bridge than drain a river.

-SgtSnarf

[Tikuto]

Humans always make mistakes. :P

[basti]

What about an interface that allows you to pull up all available CR5 commanders that are presently logged in and active.

http://members.wolfram.com/jtodd/leader.jpg

With an easy-to-use toggle interface, you can select the one(s) that you want to follow and you will only see their global broadcasts. This makes it easy to filter out the noise and to pro-actively choose the people you respect and actually want to follow. You could even add additional features to this interface that introduce additional communication tools and leadership abilities.

It's much easier to build a bridge than drain a river.

-SgtSnarf

That wouldnt fix the issue, it would just make you not see it. :/

[Traak]

How about /downrep where the CR5's could address ONLY the CR4's? I wanted that from the first time I used /sitrep, years ago. I would talk to the CR5's through sitrep, and they could only talk to me through tells or broadcasts, or /com.

I think /downrep would be a good command.

[CutterJohn]

I would personally like to see CEP and command ranks ditched entirely. In its place, a more fluid system with a simple mechanic.. Players choosing their commanders. Players would choose their squad leader. Squad leaders would choose their platoon leader. Platoon leaders would choose battalion leader, etc, and the more players you had under your command, the more access to command tools and chats you receive.

In this way, those who are in control of the armies constantly selected from a constant democratic process where the players choose who is in charge. People who lead well will be remembered. Those who do not, will not be, and players will not choose to follow them.

I would also like to see more tools at the commanders disposal, tools that entice players to do what is directed of them. For instance, the continent commander would be able to call a primary base, and aside from being highlighted on the map, there are actual benefits to fighting there, such as improved BEP rates. Lower ranked commanders could place attack/defend areas on more local positions. For example a squad or platoon leader could place a marker at the backdoor, and players under his command would get bonuses for defending or attacking that. They could also place bounties on players or structures, that pay out BEP on destruction, to entice players to take it out.

More carrot! Less screaming!

[KayOneElRoy]

Command Rank (if it exists) in PlanetSide Next should really have tons of information available to them. Real time data provided on what is going on in the battles. This is something we never had in PS other than "HotSpots" which were fairly useless.

I completely agree. Information is essential, and it would add a lot more depth and meaning into commanding troops in Planetside.

[Evilmp]

Most people just drew penises and the like.

every day


every, fucking, day

[Hamma]

:lol:

I know that I have drawn a few lude images on teh map.

[demise14]

What about an interface that allows you to pull up all available CR5 commanders that are presently logged in and active.

http://members.wolfram.com/jtodd/leader.jpg

With an easy-to-use toggle interface, you can select the one(s) that you want to follow and you will only see their global broadcasts. This makes it easy to filter out the noise and to pro-actively choose the people you respect and actually want to follow. You could even add additional features to this interface that introduce additional communication tools and leadership abilities.

It's much easier to build a bridge than drain a river.

-SgtSnarf

Now that's an awesome idea. It should show "rating" and current amount of followers as well. Possibly even allow reviews or comments. That way the unproven/annoying commanders will have negative reviews and very few followers.

[Sieldan]

What about an interface that allows you to pull up all available CR5 commanders that are presently logged in and active.

http://members.wolfram.com/jtodd/leader.jpg

With an easy-to-use toggle interface, you can select the one(s) that you want to follow and you will only see their global broadcasts. This makes it easy to filter out the noise and to pro-actively choose the people you respect and actually want to follow. You could even add additional features to this interface that introduce additional communication tools and leadership abilities.

It's much easier to build a bridge than drain a river.

-SgtSnarf

That wouldnt fix the issue, it would just make you not see it. :/

Now that's an awesome idea. It should show "rating" and current amount of followers as well. Possibly even allow reviews or comments. That way the unproven/annoying commanders will have negative reviews and very few followers.

How about this with a twist. If as a CRx you dont get a certain number of 'Follows' in a period of time, your CEP degrades.

[Firefly]

I'm going to have to agree with degrading of command rank as a means of population control - but really, what do you expect from an 8yr old game? Practically everyone should have CR5 by now.

Maybe they should um... I dunno... fix Command Ranks before they even worry about any of the other side-issues. I mean, let's think about it. What does CR give you? A few good tools and the rest was shit. Basically, Reveal Enemies had limited function which, if you have intuition and care about hotspots, could provide a teensy bit more info. EMP was useful for Gal-drops. Accurate orbital strikes on stationary targets or obvious hot-drop spots. The ability to zerg-herd. The rest was practically fucking useless.

Command Rank 1: somewhat useful - gave you waypoints (which I only really used as a navigation beacon). WPs were decent for mercs, but if you had an outfit with a decent population, no real need for mercs except for try-outs.

Command Rank 2: useless - gave me a CUD which could do what for me at that rank? Fucking nothing - reveal friendlies? Fuck that. I can do that by asking my outfit mates and alliance mates. The zerg, I don't really give a shit about. Access to CR2 chat? OOOH big fucking win there! This was the shittiest command rank ever.

Command Rank 3: useful - gave you an EMP, which had its benefits even though at CR3 it's lower power. Namely, Gal-drops into a Spitfire zone or minefield no longer ran the risk of killing everyone as they hit the ground.

Command Rank 4: useful/useless - orbital strikes were entertaining the first time I did it as CR4. Then attempting to vape an AMS and not being right on top only to discover that I just fried a few troops but didn't kill the AMS? Weak. It turned to somewhat useful but also equally useless when they took away continental broadcasts. EMP was a bit stronger, I think?

Command Rank 5: useful - CR5 OS is about the only decent thing here, or if you're not a complete twat, globals and continental-wide broadcasts. Reveal enemies had limited potential, EMP was useful. Unfortunately, there's no ego-check system so outfits with a hundred CR5s could basically run the game, at which point you either toe the line or go do something else and hope you're happy with that. This was somewhat negated by having alliances with multiple outfits and all working on a voice server together. If a dick move was made by Miss Popular Outfit, at least an alliance could still make a dent elsewhere.

[demise14]

How about this with a twist. If as a CRx you dont get a certain number of 'Follows' in a period of time, your CEP degrades.

I like that but, some people are just going to want to level their CR for the extra tools and appearance mods, with no intentions of actually commanding people. I don't think that should be taken away.

Maybe you should have to actually broadcast yourself as a 'commander' to gain access to the global command tools, but this allows your CEP to degrade when you have a small percentage of the overall followers (to stop people from abusing it and drawing shit on the maps, and to keep there from being too many actual commanders). It should work by percentage of the players that are actually subscribing rather than accounting for all players of that faction, because obviously some people are not going to care or they'll just be working with their squads or outfits.

There should also be some system in place to alert people of the current broadcasting commanders they can subscribe to, to encourage faction-wide coordination. And limit the players to only 'subscribing' to 2 or 3 GLOBAL commanders at a time. Perhaps have a separate list for continent commanders with the same rules applying, with no subscribing limit.

The other people who just want to get CR for the appearance upgrades/OS/EMP can still do so and not have to deal with the responsibility of leading. They could just choose to have their command rank hidden. And this will allow for potential new commanders to step up on the spot when the proven commanders are offline or quit the game or whatever.

[LesserShade]

Here's an idea for starters. Don't give win buttons (OS) away as rewards for raising command rank.

[Azver]

I would personally like to see CEP and command ranks ditched entirely. In its place, a more fluid system with a simple mechanic.. Players choosing their commanders. Players would choose their squad leader. Squad leaders would choose their platoon leader. Platoon leaders would choose battalion leader, etc, and the more players you had under your command, the more access to command tools and chats you receive.

In this way, those who are in control of the armies constantly selected from a constant democratic process where the players choose who is in charge. People who lead well will be remembered. Those who do not, will not be, and players will not choose to follow them.

I would also like to see more tools at the commanders disposal, tools that entice players to do what is directed of them. For instance, the continent commander would be able to call a primary base, and aside from being highlighted on the map, there are actual benefits to fighting there, such as improved BEP rates. Lower ranked commanders could place attack/defend areas on more local positions. For example a squad or platoon leader could place a marker at the backdoor, and players under his command would get bonuses for defending or attacking that. They could also place bounties on players or structures, that pay out BEP on destruction, to entice players to take it out.

More carrot! Less screaming!


I agree with this. i think something like this might really help out. I dont know how many times when leading a squad or platoon and there was a relatively lightly guarded back door and i would try to get them all to focus on it, but most were more interested in the xp farm at the front door.

Maybe more area specific incentives would help those that normally dont follow the given orders, do so.

[LesserShade]

I agree with this. i think something like this might really help out. I dont know how many times when leading a squad or platoon and there was a relatively lightly guarded back door and i would try to get them all to focus on it, but most were more interested in the xp farm at the front door.

Maybe more area specific incentives would help those that normally dont follow the given orders, do so.

Yeah I think tweaking incentives is key.. getting virtually the same XP for shooting down a lib as capping a base that has been contested for an hour just leads to prolonged bep farming over trying to work towards a collective goal.

[Bags]

It's currently a lot more lucrative to just farm than to cap bases. Highly contested base caps need to be at least 5 - 10x more BEP.

[KayOneElRoy]

Here's an idea for starters. Don't give win buttons (OS) away as rewards for raising command rank.

Agreed. I don't think the OS strikes are a necessary tool for commanders (or anyone for that matter). First of all, there are plenty of ways of dealing with a situation where an OS might be used. Secondly it is counterproductive to teamwork.

To me it seems like an after thought gadget they added for command rank. Thinking about it, I feel command rank itself was mostly an after thought in the first game. It could have been implemented in so many different ways. I believe everything command rank could offer in PS:N should be essential tools for teamwork, coordination, communication, and information. Let the battle rank handle the EMP and OS (if they even are included).


It's currently a lot more lucrative to just farm than to cap bases. Highly contested base caps need to be at least 5 - 10x more BEP.

This is something that really bothered me in the few months i played Planetside. You could be struggling to cap a base for and hour and a half and get hardly any exp, while most everyone else just farmed for kills. Ughh, I'm just thinking of the interlink facilities (If I remember correctly, these ones took forever to take).

[Bags]

Yeah, when faced with the choice of:

1.) Receiving 2250 BEP for a cap after being farmed for an hour
2.) Fighting somewhere else in a tower, or a base farm of your own, getting 200-500xp/kill

It's not hard to figure out what most people choose.

[basti]

I agree, BEP for base caps need to be worth it.

And OS, well, they were fine a long long time, before like 50% of the players got CR5. Back in the day, OSes were used as a last option, and mostly were pretty useless if not combined with a push. OSing a enemy AMS in your CY isnt helping if you dont take the CY after that.
It was fine in the past, and to make sure that such a situation never occurs again it would be indeed useful to have your cep degenerate, slowly. But there is a very thin line between a right and wrong here. If they degenerate to slow, the effect is lost. If they degenerate to fast, a few will hold onto the SL positions and everyone else will have a very hard time ever reaching CR5.

[Canaris]

quick question, some portion of the game I've lost due to brain abuse ;)

Can you use the OS if your not the squad leader in original PS?
Just wondering if a minimum req of team mates needed in your squad or platoon would be a good idea before the OS can be used?

[DviddLeff]

The rewards you get for leading should help you to lead, but they shouldn't be required to lead successfully.

If a leader is shit for whatever reason (be it not choosing good targets, misusing command tools, being a dick, etc), people wont join their squad if someone else can do the job better. That way the best leaders will naturally lead.

It is a problem for new and upcoming leaders, but if they are good enough they should have little problem.

In my PUP I have a new squad sergeant role in a squad, who also gets a slice of the CEP pie when it is awarded.

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/command-overhaul

[Aractain]

I don't like command stuff personally. But it is a core peice of the game for all players (who is leading us and what are they telling us to do).

I've seen loads of suggested systems and i really like the simple ones. They usually focus on providing direction/info to the common grunt like cont targets/base targets/waypoints etc.

Theres always that problem at the top though, voting people into command means being able to abuse the system. No limitations (like only one vote per outfit) really work well and can easily be bypassed.

Has anyone ever come up with a system where they can get a single commander of a continent reliably?

[Firefly]

Can you use the OS if your not the squad leader in original PS?
Yes. You don't even have to be in a squad. You just need to be of the appropriate Command Rank, and equipped with a CUD.

[Canaris]

Yes. You don't even have to be in a squad. You just need to be of the appropriate Command Rank, and equipped with a CUD.

Well then maybe if PSN is going to have OS, by limiting it to SL or PL might be a good way to limit spam?

[DviddLeff]

Wouldn't work; you'd just get people switching SL when an OS target presents itself.

Make cr have to be both earned and have cert points spent on it. Make it decay at a slow rate. And do as you said and only allow squad leaders to use whatever tools there are.

[Firefly]

Spamming orbital strikes is not a problem. Spamming chat is - command chat, globals, and OSes are not synonymous.

[klu]

I would personally like to see CEP and command ranks ditched entirely. In its place, a more fluid system with a simple mechanic.. Players choosing their commanders. Players would choose their squad leader. Squad leaders would choose their platoon leader. Platoon leaders would choose battalion leader, etc, and the more players you had under your command, the more access to command tools and chats you receive. this

some other ideas i really like that were already posted, more chat filter options beyond a simple 'ignore in all channels'. also command tools (including /c, cont/global all) requiring cert points could go a long way in separating the leaders from the power-levelers.

[CutterJohn]

Has anyone ever come up with a system where they can get a single commander of a continent reliably?

It would work fine if the commander was chosen by popular consent. Whoever has the most people under his command on the continent is the continent commander. If he does a piss poor job, or is making choices the masses don't want, he will lose people and another will take his place.

The thing to remember is this is a game. People don't really want to be ordered around to do things they don't want to be doing. A good commander will as such have to remember this, and balance the players immediate gratification with a nights success. The tactically sound decision is not necessarily the fun one.

[Aractain]

Indeed. Your idea does make the most sense, similar to customers 'voting with their dollars'.

Specifically you don't want all the grunts having to pick someone nor do you want people to grind out cep (oh yeah guys I can totally command I sat afk in a base while squad leader for a while!) to command or influence the 'vote'. The continent wide forces allow a large sample which marginalises the 'huge outfit' situation a bit.

What about solo players though? There IS going to be a lot of them - do they count or is it only the more organised who can 'choose'? Which does make sense.

[Jonny]

Sounds like a sound idea, CutterJohn. This system sounds best where people can vote to choose their commander, and they could vote when they wanted.

Any bad leader could then just slip out of that position by people not voting for him again. (if only we had this in politics)

If he played well with the team, he may be voted in again etc.

The idea of him laying down attack areas to give a better xp reward sounds good too, or he may have no real control. This would obviously have to be linked to an enemy objective so it couldn't be farmed.

Sorry if I just reiterated your point, but I like it.

[Firefly]

It would work fine if the commander was chosen by popular consent. Whoever has the most people under his command on the continent is the continent commander. If he does a piss poor job, or is making choices the masses don't want, he will lose people and another will take his place.

The thing to remember is this is a game. People don't really want to be ordered around to do things they don't want to be doing. A good commander will as such have to remember this, and balance the players immediate gratification with a nights success. The tactically sound decision is not necessarily the fun one.
You forget one thing - most of the people in this game are Americans (except on Werner). Americans like to vote in a fucking idiot, and then complain about the government they get. They can't even get it right when given multiple chances. I believe in democracy, I shed my blood sweat and tears for this democracy. But in the end, I believe in the saying "We only get the government we deserve/vote for". When you allow the public access to control over its own fate, trust in the public to fuck shit up for everyone. It doesn't just apply in real life. Intelligence is not required in this game, nor is common sense. Popular doesn't mean intelligent. Nor does it mean successful. Just because you have CR5 doesn't mean you're a general, nor does it even begin to suggest that you're halfway competent and qualified to be a general. People seem to forget that.

Thing is, this is a video game, it's not the Army. Nobody made you enlist. Nobody made you sign a contract and require you to obey orders. You're paying money to have fun. When some asshole who took a summer vacation at a Boy Scout campsite decides you're going to a place where you're going to get steam-rolled, that's not fun. And then they get all whiny and butt-hurt when people decide they think your plan was utter shit. They do stupid shit like start using global chat to prosecute some vendetta.

CR5s might - MIGHT - agree to call a primary in their command chat. A portion of the time, it just involves one or two outfits and their plethora of CR5s overruling everyone else and calling a target. It's up to the average player to decide what to do. If you agree, go play with the zerg. If you don't, play however you damned well want. My advice for anyone who wants to play a coordinated game: find a squad of like-minded people, or find an outfit that meets your playstyle.

Outfits make this game, not CR5s. CR5 is just a virtual rank in a virtual videogame. The day someone earns a paycheck as a CR5 will be the day it means more than a sum total of 1) squirt of piss, 2) global harassment, and 3) orbital strikes.

The end.

[CutterJohn]

I know CR5 means nothing, which is why I want it abandoned. People who want to be led will pick a commander to lead them. People that don't want that will obviously ignore it all and follow the zerg.

You are indeed correct that this isn't the army. People didn't sign up, and they certainly didn't ask to be yelled at by some cr5s with an overinflated sense of their own importance from a couple of outfits they don't care about and may have never heard of. Hence my proposal. The only people being led are those that asked for leaders, and they are being led by leaders they chose. Some of the time it will be the loudest person. Some of the time it will be someone who is sound tactition who is well versed in making war in a game between armies of herded cats.

Oh, and you'll note that it wasn't a strict democratic vote, but rather a more of a representative democracy. Squad leaders pick their platoon leaders, platoon leaders pick their battalion commander, etc. Someone who is motivated enough to make a squad is a bit more likely to be experienced, and make a better decision than the average zergling, on up the line. The people motivated to seek the perks of the command positions will on the whole be more likely to pick more capable people as leaders.

Thats the theory anyway. I can't think of another way to do it though that is in any way fair to the people being asked to do stuff. Its certainly a better option to try than grinding command ranks and spamming global.

What about solo players though? There IS going to be a lot of them - do they count or is it only the more organised who can 'choose'? Which does make sense.

Dunno. If they're not even motivated enough to get into a squad, I really don't think they would care all that much who is in charge or what they are doing. They should still get certain benefits, like fighting in the primary base called by the continent commander.

How many people really ran around squadless?

[Sentrosi]

To me it seems like a lot of bureaucracy. Vote, vote, vote, vote, vote. Just find an outfit, hook up, strap on, load up and head out. Outfit calls for a hot drop on a tower, shut up and just do it. You don't like it? Log off. Too many factors as well. What if a continent commander has to log off? Revote again, stalling the push?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bender]

CR5 is fine the way it is , maybe a better reveal enemies , zoom on map for os ???
Chat filter so we don't get all this spam crap , have a window for active CR5 on with the option to toggle on / off.

[Hamma]

I'm pretty sure Firefly just summed up CR5 election in the best way possible. :lol:

I have to think that SOE sees whats going on now with CR5 and have seriously reconsidered command rank for PSN. I suspect it will still exist, but I doubt people are going to be able to spam cont or global spam constantly.

[CutterJohn]

I'm pretty sure Firefly just summed up CR5 election in the best way possible. :lol:

I have to think that SOE sees whats going on now with CR5 and have seriously reconsidered command rank for PSN. I suspect it will still exist, but I doubt people are going to be able to spam cont or global spam constantly.

Pretty sure any other method of giving commanders special powers/privileges is equally problematic, and that all Firefly summed up was his contempt for other players.

If its not player choice, what else is it? First come first serve like BF2? Just grind up then yell like in PS? Give up the idea of commanders entirely and ditch the concept of cat herding tools?

I don't see why it would be so hard or painful. Just get a platoon going. Thats your CR5. There will be no proliferation of command ranks and OS/Global spam, because only a fraction of the people on a continent could be commanders at any given time. 5, to be exact, if the poplock was 133 again and you needed 25 people to qualify for the extra tools.

Maybe I'm crazy. But we already join squads, and platoons, and a good number of us were a tad bit choosy when we did so.

Yes its a vote. But its a vote with a preexisting mechanic that makes logical sense. In PS you lead squads and platoons to get CEP for command tools. Forget that. Just give the command tools to the people leading the squads and platoons.

[Bags]

CR5 system worked fine until EIGHT years after PS release. All they have to do is figure out how to keep the numbers fairly stagnant over time and not completely redesign who gets CR5.

That or make people choose between OS and comall.

[Aractain]

CR5 system worked fine until EIGHT years after PS release. All they have to do is figure out how to keep the numbers fairly stagnant over time and not completely redesign who gets CR5.

That or make people choose between OS and comall.

I don't understand why someone who grinds out cep, which is like bep but easier to afk, should get an OS?

I mean if you command, sure you need that but don't abuse it bro, its not a toy.

But if your somedude04 who puts together a squad of pityed fools and stands in an SOI... Why?


Oh and OS spam was bad enough in 2004.

[DviddLeff]

Yeah, CR5 spamming was a problem even back in 2004, if anything it was worse (effectiveness wise) as the pops were higher and not as many people had realised the over useful nature of air cav or had the certs for it, so more people were using Gal drops or spawning at AMSs.

[Manitou]

"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."
George S. Patton

"A piece of spaghetti or a military unit can only be led from the front end."
George S. Patton

[Firefly]

If its not player choice, what else is it? First come first serve like BF2? Just grind up then yell like in PS? Give up the idea of commanders entirely and ditch the concept of cat herding tools?.
It's nothing else. Don't implement a vote system. The end.

Leave it the way it is.

[CutterJohn]

It's nothing else. Don't implement a vote system. The end.

Leave it the way it is.

The way it is sucks because it gives nobody incentive to listen to anyone else, so you end up with legions of zerg just doing what they want, and command ranks that are useless for actual command, and used instead as bonus combat abilities, and a selection process based on presence, not performance.

[Bags]

The way it is sucks because it gives nobody incentive to listen to anyone else, so you end up with legions of zerg just doing what they want, and command ranks that are useless for actual command, and used instead as bonus combat abilities, and a selection process based on presence, not performance.

Just give bonus experience to listening to a CR5.

[basti]

Just give bonus experience to listening to a CR5.

My mind just exploded reading this post bags. Gonna write a long long post about that idea.

[Bags]

My mind just exploded reading this post bags. Gonna write a long long post about that idea.

It comes down to reward / fun. I usually ignore my fellow CR5's unless the fight they're suggesting everyone goes to is more fun than the one I'm currently at.

There's absolutely no incentive (lol 2250 capture BEP) to go to an enemy base farm currently unless you're working on CR. I'd much rather stay in my foot zerging fight and go 19 / 2 instead of going to an NC base and going 35 / 42.

Base caps XP / bonus XP amounts are paramount to getting people to listen to CR5s. You can't tell me hardly anyone would get an ANT if there was no XP bonus XD.

[CutterJohn]

Just give bonus experience to listening to a CR5.

I already wrote about that 2 pages back, where squad/platoon leaders would be able to designate areas to attack/defend, put bounties on an objective(generator, or, as you suggest, an ant) or a vehicle, or simply marking this stuff on the map.

Its also why I want to see the platoon leaders select a continent commander, since he's who sets the primary, the focal point of the zerg, and they would follow that because they get bonus exp.

[Robert089]

Malorn's manifesto has some interesting ideas for command ranks and a mission system.

The Planetside Manifesto (http://www.liberty-clan.com/topsecret/psm.pdf)

Section 1.7 is about command rank, 2.4 is about CR5 missions and 2.5.1 cover CR5 gifted incentives.

[DviddLeff]

In my command overhaul the continent commander is simply the guy in charge of the company, which is made up of 3-4 platoons (120 players) on the continent. The continent commander would set missions for his platoon leaders, who in turn set tasks for their squads.

[MasonGathers]

I frequently turned global messages off in the chat window. Mostly when I got tired of getting spammed by CR5's who for some reason decided to have a personal bitchfight on global chat. Or, CR5's spamming 1000x messages of "Leave tower X, you're not being useful, primary is different continent" and stuff like that.

Sure, this meant that I also missed out on all the 'useful' globals, but in all honesty, do we really need to see messages telling what the primary target is? When I log in and check the map, I can see where the battle is raging. If there is none, I will hang around in sanctuary to see if there is a group forming and ask them where they're going. If I feel like going somewhere solo for whatever reason I will do so. If I'm in an outfit, I'll check who's online and join them.

People who like to play in a coherent team will form squads, platoons, and outfits anyway, and since they value teamwork, they will listen to their squad/platoon/outfit leader. If they turn out to be idiots, kick 'em.

There will, of course, also be outfits consisting only of people who do like to play together but don't value teamwork that much, but if you do and you're in one of those, then you picked the wrong outfit.

An added option to the squad joining system where you can add people on an 'ignore' list if you don't want them to join your squad would prevent anyone you've kicked to simply rejoin just to annoy you. (to be honest, I stopped playing shortly after the werner-gemini merge; as far as I remember an option like this was not available but I'm not sure anymore).

In my opinion, the CR system could be disbanded altogether. Those who like to develop strategies and have people execute them can do so within their own outfits, platoons, and squads. If you go to an empty continent with a full platoon, more people will show up eventually anyway. And even if they don't, you'll still have quite a decent battle.

And no matter whether or not a CR system exists, you can't get rid of random people completely destroying your plans by doing whatever the hell they want anyway.

And don't get all hyped up by some sort of 'OMG I want my outfit to be HUGE and I want it NOW!' feeling. If you invite people you hardly know into your outfit, you're bound to end up with a fair amount of assholes.

To summarize: If you like to make strategies and have people follow them, create an outfit, don't invite random people just because they have been in your squad for an hour, and you'll eventually have a team of people you like playing with.

And where does this leave OS, EMP and such? I'm thinking, just make them certable, but only after a certain BR.

[Tool]

I do like the idea of command rank degrading; those who lead well and often would maintain their rank while others would remain a lower rank. And as such, degrading only begins after a certain rank?

More tools for leaders I do agree with, various off map support options other than just orbital strikes like ammo, temporary orbital drop pod that allows only squad members to spawn from for a time, artillery barrages, etc.

Also the ability for Squad Leaders to assign specific targets such as towers, bases, vehicles, etc. to the squad allowing for bonus experience once the point is captured or object destroyed. Or something similar to the FRAGO ability in MAG or target objective in BC2, bonus experience near the objective set by the SL.

I would very much like to see a UI setup allowing for leaders of various levels to post requests or missions. Such as an infantry group posting a request for a transport ground or air. Someone with the required certs can accept and link up with the squad, proceeding to a predetermined way-point. Once accomplished the driver/pilot is awarded with exp in addition to any the squad gains for a short time after completion.

Experience gained could be mostly dependent on the amount of enemies and battle duration in the area the mission is completed? And of course whoever posted the mission/request is awarded an amount of CEP based on a similar formula.

Similar postings could be made for close air support, carpet bombings, artillery, AMS support, etc. Allowing for coordinated efforts across all forms of combat.

[Lonehunter]

I would really like a temporary Command Rank. Eventually everyone reach the max Command Rank would be ridiculous. What if your CR reset every week? Basically this would ensure only the people that are actively leading will get the benefits of doing so. If you stop leading, you can't Command Chat. It makes sense

[I SandRock]

I wrote this PvP Suggestion for SWTOR a while ago and based it mostly on DAoC + Planetside. I made these adjustments to the Commander system:

Basically you rank to CR5 but that doesn't mean you get access to the full CR5 abilities like global chat.
Each alliance (combination of guilds/outfits) or guild/outfit has to elect a CR5 from amongst their ranks to represent them. If there is such a thing as outfit levels then you could also put a minimum level before an outfit can start to elect a commander.

The commander that they elect is put in the CR5 pool for commanding. Perhaps to make sure there is a Commander representing their outfit you can have a Commander 1, 2 ,3. If 1 isn't on, 2 fills in, if 1+2 isn't on, 3 fills in.

Now these CR5s have access to the full CR5 pool, BUT a voting UI is put in place in which the current active CR5s vote for one of their CR5s to lead them in the current battle and give most of the orders. You could then give this CR5 full control over all chats. While the other CR5s have a limit on how many messages they can send over global per X minutes.


This is where I wrote it down:
ALLIANCES - Alliances of guilds are important as well. Each ALLIANCE can nominate a limited amount of COMMANDERS depending on the amount and size of the guilds in the ALLIANCE as well as their ranks.


COMMANDERS - These are a group of people that get access to a global pvp channel through which they can relay information and tactics to the rest of their faction. COMMANDERS are elected by ALLIANCES. The amount of COMMANDERS that can be elected depends on the amount and size of the guilds as well as their ranks. Only players of a certain PERSONAL PVP RANK can be elected as COMMANDER as well.
These COMMANDERS are the representatives of their alliances and guilds, together they can discuss global tactics for the faction wars and agree upon which strategy to follow. Which they then relay to the faction through the GLOBAL PVP CHANNEL

[This has been shown to work very effectively in Planetside. We also believe this will promote the community feel BioWare is trying to go for. As well as promote a command structure to further promote tactical gameplay. COMMANDERS represent their alliances and guilds and discuss global (macro management) tactics with the other COMMANDERS while GUILDS can then organize further tactics on a smaller level (micro management). ]


GLOBAL CHAT - The channel that broadcasts to all PvP zones. Only 5 messages per 3 minutes can be broadcasted by all COMMANDERS combined.

From: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B6yVSWc88SIHZjQ5N2UzZDItODJiNS00ZWE4LWJmODM tOGRhZjUwNTI3NmIx&hl=en



Telling people what to do in their game, for most of the attempts, does not work especially if they're paying for it.

What I suggest is let everyone command so that Commanders can make the decisions (not orders). e.g. Everyone could have a Laze Point, they use it and Commanders see it on their map. There the 'Officers in Command' (like an ever-changing pool of selected commanders) then make decisions for their artillery, air or orbital strikes.

years of planetside has showed two things: You are wrong, and you are wrong.
You can lead people, if they trust you. It works, plenty of guys did it, including myself.
letting everyone command is what we currently have, and now take a look at /c ...

+1

[Aractain]

The simplicity of the squad leaders chooseing the commander is pretty cool. I know Planetside tried to go in this direction toward the end with SL chat etc but fixing the command system is quite important for the new game.

We don't want to go back to people grinding for their OS. If every should be able to get one just make it freely avalible to everyone who has played the game for 300 hours. (Don't do that btw SOE... thats dumb).
Without the 'toys' there is no purpose to the grind or CR in general.

You don't need reveal friendlys, or reveal enemies (those were both terrible systems). Friendlys should be shown as an info display (a bit like RUSE) to all squad leaders. For the acutal commander he would see a far more detailed friendly troop map with both type and more acurate numbers wise.

RUSE shows units as 'types'; Light, Heavy and Air. The fact it hides exactly what kind of unit it is creates a lot of the gameplay. Not only that but certain units are hidden (in forests mostly).

For enemies could have a recon system which sends out the data to everyone - it would certianly actualy add gameplay (creating recon, anti-recon (hunting/killing) and stealth generator roles).

Like this but 2D (mostly heavy units here):
http://www.platformnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/RUSE-Screen-2-525x295.jpg


The EMP isn't useful for commanders. Its useful for assualt squads, so give it to assault squads - say 2 cert points or an implant.

If your a SL or PL or something similar you already would have 'command chat'. No use for seperate command channels and sitrep.

[Firefly]

The way it is sucks because it gives nobody incentive to listen to anyone else, so you end up with legions of zerg just doing what they want, and command ranks that are useless for actual command, and used instead as bonus combat abilities, and a selection process based on presence, not performance.
This is only a problem if you give a shit what the zerg does.

There's this thing called an outfit. The reason we have outfits is because, theoretically, some outfits actually do stuff and organise themselves, and they organise with others. If you want "actual command" go join the fMarine Corps. This is a video game, not some branch of the service. I don't pay to play this game just so I can listen to dipshit armchair-generals who don't know shit about shit except what they learned in the chess club.

If I feel an idea has merit, I will listen and act. Again - access to CR5 doesn't mean you are smart, it just means your EMP and your OS is bigger, and you can use global. Big effin' deal. You could implement a perfect system that puts smart people in charge - but it will NEVER happen. You can't fix stupid. You can't regulate intelligence in a video game. Stupid idiots and intellectually inferior people will always find a way into top spots. It's impossible to regulate that sort of thing in a video game. Hell, even the military hasn't perfected it.

My advice is, go find an outfit. If that outfit doesn't meet your playstyle, go find another outfit. If that doesn't work, create your own outfit and populate it with people who know how to follow orders and believe in teamwork and coordination.

[I SandRock]

I think Commanders did a good job, you filtered out those who knew their stuff and would pretty much follow their stuff. Just calling out 1 base for everyone to hit is better than nothing.

You'll always have the zerg, they'll go where the biggest fight is. You can somewhat control them by calling out the next target base for them as soon as you are about to capture the one they were fighting at. But that's about all you can control the zerg. Which is fine, it has it's place.
Spec Ops outfits is where the real deal is. And a good commander knows these teams and can communicate with them to hit certain targets.

[Manitou]

There's this thing called an outfit. The reason we have outfits is because, theoretically, some outfits actually do stuff and organise themselves, and they organise with others.
When good outfits team up, they can accomplish stuff. I have seen and experienced this over and over. Yes, the zerg is always there, but I have seen a few good outfits teamed up that can hold against the mindless zerg.

Numbers can impact, and that is why the zerg sometimes appears to be effective. But remember, if the zerg gets slapped hard, typically it loses interest and moves onto something easier.

Good outfits will know to whom to listen and where to go.

[Goku]

I like the concept, Basti. My only issues with the structure is the Continental Commander and the picking and choosing of commanders.

I don't see the Continental Commander being that useful. Most outfits usually run their own armor columns. Back when my outfit had its prime we would be doing around 10 VGs during prime time. I am not entirely sure how effective a Continental Commander could do its objective as long as outfits are running around doing their own agenda. Sure you could have everyone try and cordinate, but I am not sure I would even want to par take in that. I think this can just be easily done with an actual armor channel people can talk in. That would be a good way for people to coordinate.

My only other issue is the picking and choosing of commanders. High population outfits could easily control the agenda of a empire. That is why it can be easily abused. I do like the breakdown of roles though. It will help keep people doing on active role and force more communication between everyone. There has to be some kind of way to get ass hats off of the /com system too. I am sure we could do some sort of voting system, just again have to make sure there is ways to prevent it from being abused. Such as putting a limit on how CR5s from a single outfit can vote. That would put a stop from big outfits abusing this at least.

[LesserShade]

It comes down to reward / fun. I usually ignore my fellow CR5's unless the fight they're suggesting everyone goes to is more fun than the one I'm currently at.

There's absolutely no incentive (lol 2250 capture BEP) to go to an enemy base farm currently unless you're working on CR. I'd much rather stay in my foot zerging fight and go 19 / 2 instead of going to an NC base and going 35 / 42.

Base caps XP / bonus XP amounts are paramount to getting people to listen to CR5s. You can't tell me hardly anyone would get an ANT if there was no XP bonus XD.

This^^

What might be interesting to take it a step further would be for squad leaders to receive some amount of CEP for giving orders that squadmates then followed for BEP. As it is now, you only get CEP for base caps and resecures right? Capping a base makes sense, but if you're successfully defending a base, the opposing force shouldn't be hacking your CC in the first place.

[TRex]

It just seems ironic that a commander is voted for by the general minions that are supposedly 'under their command'. Generally armies are not a democratic process , the exact reverse is true. Yes, they may have to give a report for their actions to the public they serve and protect , but the power given to them works from the top down, not the other way around.

Maybe instead of all the voting etc implied, command is a rank based upon results . You gain ground consistently , providing new tech and benefits to your troops , your ability and information to allow you to increase your effectiveness as a commander grows along with your rank.
The reverse should also be true -you lose a base or continent as the commander , and you lose command points and rank if it persists.
That way command is a mix of you giving the right orders and acquiring information correctly to allow your troops to gain ground , and likewise the troops quickly beginning to trust the commander and following their orders . It's a balance that needs to benefit both sides , and defending should be just as rewarding as offensive manouvres.

There just needs a mechanism so that those who follow poor leadership and fail to defend or attack effectively , lose is a meanigful way - their 'leader' cant use /cont all because hes lost enough command points to lose his cr5 status - and because they lost information they could have had from the commander , their BEP is reduced for everything they do until or if another cr5 takes over and corrects the mistakes the previous commander made ie gaining ground and defending well. Tasty carrot with a big stick.

[Hamma]

Thinking about this more honestly I believe command rank should just provide more "Information" for the commander. Similar to what was posted above, and if global chat exists it should be severely limited and have spam protection.

The ONLY time CR5's were effective was right at launch and a few months after. There were only a few of them and they were pretty good at giving direction. After that it was all down hill and now it's just totally useless. :lol:

[Firefly]

Oh, I don't know. I used to log in and ask in CR5 command chat "Where do you want the Chinese zerg?" Then I'd proceed to all-caps the global channel in Chinese, telling them to go fight wherever. Did anyone ever see Chinese CR5s?

[Hamma]

:lol:

I have not ever seen a Chinese global :doh:

[Firefly]

I can do it in simplified/short-form characters and I can do it in Pinyin/romanization. It's hilarious to do, because there's always a handful of English speakers who send me hate /tells thinking I'm a powerlevel-spammer and there's always a handful of Chinese people who start trying to have a conversation.

[basti]

The ONLY time CR5's were effective was right at launch and a few months after. There were only a few of them and they were pretty good at giving direction. After that it was all down hill and now it's just totally useless. :lol:


Nope. Wrong on so many levels.

Even these days, the right guy at the right time can make a difference. Just login and watch those NC Maxcrashes we get from time to time.
Watch a small VS maxcrash into a interlink lobby, you will most likley see me running in as the first guy.
Its CR5s that do this, nobody else. Often they get support by outfits, but often enough you dont have enough outfit buddies around to get somethign going, and then you need to rely on your /comcont to get additional troops for your plan.

Same goes with leading in general. If i shout out where to, i get enough ppl following me to have a small zerg. The rest will simply follow because they fail to do anything else. It has been this way since forever, and it will ever be this way.

[Lonehunter]

As a player from the first few years, I don't think of a MAX crash as a great CR5 accomplishment.

I really don't want to put the effort in to explain it, lol, but if you haven't seen what CR5s did back in the first few years of PS then you don't know what real commanding is like.

[Manitou]

Nope. Wrong on so many levels.

Even these days, the right guy at the right time can make a difference. Just login and watch those NC Maxcrashes we get from time to time.
Watch a small VS maxcrash into a interlink lobby, you will most likley see me running in as the first guy.
Its CR5s that do this, nobody else. Often they get support by outfits, but often enough you dont have enough outfit buddies around to get somethign going, and then you need to rely on your /comcont to get additional troops for your plan.

Same goes with leading in general. If i shout out where to, i get enough ppl following me to have a small zerg. The rest will simply follow because they fail to do anything else. It has been this way since forever, and it will ever be this way.
Well, that is the whole point. If you have "the right guy". Typically today you have 6000 (note: hyperbole) CR5s directing people all over the place, spreading whatever troops you might possibly muster so thin nothing is accomplished. You can have all the Max-crashes you want, but if they aren't supported by some seriously coordinated ground troops and extas, they are a pretty sight only.

[Hamma]

Yea I think you misunderstood. It was useful early on because there were so few, and they had a chance to become respected. Nowadays it's just a mish mash and sure there's one or two effective guys out there but it doesn't change the fact that it's a fairly useless system overall.

[I SandRock]

Yea I think you misunderstood. It was useful early on because there were so few, and they had a chance to become respected. Nowadays it's just a mish mash and sure there's one or two effective guys out there but it doesn't change the fact that it's a fairly useless system overall.

Yeah. Though it was a great system (i feel) and really unique. I think the CR5 system itself could stay. If they add a new system on top of that. For instance, getting CR5 simply qualifies you to become a commander achievement wise. Once you have it, your outfit still has to appoint you their respective commander. Only large enough outfits (not 3-4 people) that have a certain amount of points or playtime (so you can't just make a new outfit with your buddy and be appointed commander) can appoint commanders. But even then you aren't full commander yet.

The commanders have to vote for an online commander to lead the current battle. He gets full access to global chat. While the other commanders get say 3 messages every 5 minutes as limit.

Along with that voting system you give a vote of no confidence system, so if the elected commander starts fucking up badly the other commanders can vote him out again and pick a new one. Perhaps also add an auto-revote every hour just so that people who came online and others who went offline can get their say too.



Don't know, just an example as solution. I'd hate for the commander structure to go in PS:N. I really loved that part of Planetside and I've never had CR5 on my character. It just gave that feeling of WAR/ARMY much better. And it really felt like the players were in control :)

[Hamma]

We have talked a ton about a voting system in various threads and always end up at the same end point, voting leads to asshat's being in charge and more asshats keeping them in charge. :lol:

I think just throttling global chat would be more than enough of a change at least to the communications portion of CR5

[Goku]

:lol:

I have not ever seen a Chinese global :doh:

Come NC during the late morning or early afternoon. When I had winter break it was the only /com commands I saw playing sometimes.

Nope. Wrong on so many levels.

Even these days, the right guy at the right time can make a difference. Just login and watch those NC Maxcrashes we get from time to time.
Watch a small VS maxcrash into a interlink lobby, you will most likley see me running in as the first guy.
Its CR5s that do this, nobody else. Often they get support by outfits, but often enough you dont have enough outfit buddies around to get somethign going, and then you need to rely on your /comcont to get additional troops for your plan.

Same goes with leading in general. If i shout out where to, i get enough ppl following me to have a small zerg. The rest will simply follow because they fail to do anything else. It has been this way since forever, and it will ever be this way.

This is very true. Even back around 07 to 08 you could easily get a following. I did on many occasions.

[CutterJohn]

We have talked a ton about a voting system in various threads and always end up at the same end point, voting leads to asshat's being in charge and more asshats keeping them in charge. :lol:

I think just throttling global chat would be more than enough of a change at least to the communications portion of CR5

Its not a voting system. Its just giving command tools to the people in charge of squads and platoons. Easy as hell right there. They are the ones in command of people. They should have the tools. Most straightforward thing in the world.

[I SandRock]

Its not a voting system. Its just giving command tools to the people in charge of squads and platoons. Easy as hell right there. They are the ones in command of people. They should have the tools. Most straightforward thing in the world.

Except you can have a small squad and be a total retard, or even a squad of 1-10 people you'd end up with like 20+ commanders.

[Firefly]

If you all feel the need to gimp CR5 and make it so that only the most popular people get it, then make it like BF2 commander system.

[I SandRock]

If you all feel the need to gimp CR5 and make it so that only the most popular people get it, then make it like BF2 commander system.

Well you want good people to get it. At the start, the first months, it'll be fine. But once total random people get CR5 and start spamming global it starts failing. Looking for a way to prevent that!

Perhaps instead of voting somebody FOR commander you can vote somebody to lose commander chat for an hour... :P

[CutterJohn]

If you all feel the need to gimp CR5 and make it so that only the most popular people get it, then make it like BF2 commander system.

So outfits wouldn't put their most competent people in charge? Sure, randoms would have random people, but its the outfits that balance it all out. If you have a large outfit, you're going to have several voices on command chat. To drown out the random zerg commanders that occur occasionally.

Gimp is a good word though. Its what I want to see. CR should not be a method of improving your grunting skills with several handy tools.

And wasn't BF2 commander just first come first serve? I'm ashamed to say I can't remember how it works now, which is sad after how much I played.

[Firefly]

But once total random people get CR5 and start spamming global it starts failing. Looking for a way to prevent that!
1) Peer pressure - I had no problems embarrassing a CR5 in global, except that this adds to spam. Especially when said dipshit's other dipshit friends start chiming in with more of the same. I've publicly said in global things like "You're an idiot. Shut up." and "Hey SMILEY777. Fuck you." I'll take a one-day suspension for that.
2) Fix ignore so that you can ignore someone in ALL channels. It used to be that you could ignore someone, but you'd still see their globals and continental broadcasts.

So outfits wouldn't put their most competent people in charge? Sure, randoms would have random people, but its the outfits that balance it all out. If you have a large outfit, you're going to have several voices on command chat. To drown out the random zerg commanders that occur occasionally.
I'd actually like to see a system outside of CR5 that gives a platoon better tools, maybe what CR5s have now or better. Improve upon it.

For example, three squad leaders and then there's a platoon leader (usually people just default the 1st squad leader as platoon leader). SLs have their tools, platoon leader has their tools.

From what I remember, and this is largely memory based on having played it a few times back in 2004-2005 whenever, you asked the system to make you Commander. The system would give it to you if the SLs voted yes, or after about 20 seconds or something of no response from squad leaders.

[basti]

We have talked a ton about a voting system in various threads and always end up at the same end point, voting leads to asshat's being in charge and more asshats keeping them in charge. :lol:





These days VS got like 50% Cr5s of the online players. Just do a /who cr5 on the cont with the fight, and it will pretty much show the same 50% for NC and TR. So, its save to say, half of the played characters are CR5s. Its quite a number, a big number.
Yet, i dont see constant counter globals these days. I see useful globals, i see short chats in /c about the next target. Ofc there is random crap, alot more than back in the day, but it only rarley becomes a problem.

Right now, VS CR5s got several partys within them.
1.Outfits - The crap talkers, yet effective - They talk BS in /c sometimes, often enough completly random topics that have nothign to do with leading, yet they get stuff done. YOu can't count on them 100% of the time, but if they are free, you can be sure that they will go for the resecures and other coordinated stuff.

2. The Sane - People who just try to exploit the situation to the empires advantage. They want fun, big battles, they want to win. They get the AMS, call for more ams, call for whatever stuff. Most forgot/never saw the old ways of Maxcrashes/Magrider collums/Reaver Raids, or just think they dont work and never try them. While most of them work alone, you can count on them to support something if they can.

3. Batsteg - Playing cool, being a fool. He ignores everything other people say, and just thinks he is the lead guy who knows everything and gets everyone to follow him. These days he get TKed quite alot for that.

4. The quited. people who got CR5, but never talk on /c / only talk off topic.



Lets put it simple:

1. Outfits that work mainly for fun, but support the empire if they arent doing something else already
2. People who want to lead and try it day after day
3. Asshats who just annoy everyone and quickly get hated by everyone
4. People who have no interrest in leading and just got CR5 for the tools it provides.

If you put that into a voting:
1. Many votes on many different people, they always want to push themself. Maybe several outfits work together to push one guy.
2. A few votes on one Person.
3. a few votes on another person.
4. Many votes for the Outfits and the Sane CR5.

Thats a fact, plain and simple. It is that way, because history showed us that in SEVERAL THOUSAND YEARS OF HUMAN SOCIETY! Its not made up, its a fact. Nobody wants to be the asshat everyone hates. Only the asshats themself going to vote for the big asshat leader. The asshats wont ever take lead, ever. It just doesnt work.

Btw, this is a whorst case scenario. It cant be worse. This would happen if almost everybody hates everybody, and thats not going to happen.

What will happen is that The outfits team up with the sane Commanders. They will team up and choose their best guy to lead them all. Just ask Old time Werner VS players who Enrico was, they surley will tell you storys of a a great CR5. The quite CR5s will also just support the sane CR5s mostly, simply because they rather want to win than getting Zeroed all day. The Asshats would simply be completly overpowered, just like it was always, at any time, during Planetsides lifetime.

[I SandRock]

CR5s on VS do try at the moment but none of them seem to possess a lot of tactical insight. Like we set ourselves up to get sandwiched right up the butt and face by TR and NC real nice today on Amerish. And that's following the CR5's calls. Could've seen it coming from a mile away. It seems CR5's at the moment just look at whatever base looks easiest to cap and call for that.

[kaffis]

I would personally like to see CEP and command ranks ditched entirely. In its place, a more fluid system with a simple mechanic.. Players choosing their commanders. Players would choose their squad leader. Squad leaders would choose their platoon leader. Platoon leaders would choose battalion leader, etc, and the more players you had under your command, the more access to command tools and chats you receive.
I like this notion, but I don't think it needs to preclude CEP and command rank. I think that your idea here is a great way to hand out command *tools*, but command rank (and the CEP to get it) can still be useful in helping people decide whose command to submit themselves to. Given two strangers I've never heard of, I can look at the interface/uniform, and see that one is CR1 and the other's CR5. The CR5 guy's got more experience leading, so perhaps I should try him first. Now, this does require gaining CR to be non-trivial and less abusable, but see below. Even if you don't want people to assume the CR5 guy is a better commander (in which case, you don't put that info on the interface), I think CEP is still a nice incentive to encourage people to take on the burden of command, and things like the uniform upgrades are a nice little recognition for people who have spent time doing so.

I would also like to see more tools at the commanders disposal, tools that entice players to do what is directed of them. For instance, the continent commander would be able to call a primary base, and aside from being highlighted on the map, there are actual benefits to fighting there, such as improved BEP rates. Lower ranked commanders could place attack/defend areas on more local positions. For example a squad or platoon leader could place a marker at the backdoor, and players under his command would get bonuses for defending or attacking that. They could also place bounties on players or structures, that pay out BEP on destruction, to entice players to take it out.

More carrot! Less screaming!
I do really like this motto, and the idea of putting bounties out on players, structures, and vehicles. I'd say the bounties should be automatically valued by the game, though, based on how "important" the game deems the target (busy AMSes get a higher value than ones that haven't spawned anybody in 10 minutes, or whatever; players on a 10-player kill streak are worth a bigger bounty than players who've died 10 times in the last 15 minutes, etc) in order to prevent abuse and farming by setting high value bounties on trivial targets.

I know that I have drawn a few lude images on teh map.
My favorite drawing was the sea monster captioned "Here there be dragons..."

nor do you want people to grind out cep (oh yeah guys I can totally command I sat afk in a base while squad leader for a while!)
I think this could totally dovetail well with CutterJohn's notion of designating objectives. I'm a squad leader. I've got a platoon leader who has designated a base to assault. I set my "carrot beacon," if you will, to one of the doors on that base. My squad now goes to fight at the location I designated (and, by proxy, fighting for the base that my platoon leader designated, so my following the platoon leader's orders is rewarding the platoon leader, too), reaping the benefit of the carrot beacon's bonus BEP in the process. Now, instead of me just getting CEP for afking while my squad took the base, I should get CEP for the BEP they've earned by following my orders to fight at the carrot beacon.

This way, my CEP advancement is tied to people following my leadership and orders, not something as abusable as simple squad leadership. If people don't follow my orders (ignoring my stupidly placed carrot beacon, for instance), I'm not rewarded with CEP because I'm not competently leading them.

[wildcat140679]

I don't believe there is true full proof system that will separate the good leaders from the bad, you will always have a few rotten apples among your ranks, no matter what. Voting systems and alike can be abused by big outfits, in the end the player base will follow the good and ignor the bad.

Those dedicated to leading, will stick out from the bad, even if senseless orders are barked and an argument takes places in the command channels for every one to hear, but believe me, people will pick there side and follow the orders that makes sense to them and these often come from the good leaders, the bad end up on the ignore lists.


Planetside offered besides the needed tools that made it possible to gather information and be a better commander/leader to assist in steering the troops. But it also had the EMP Jammer Blast and Orbital Strike, this attracted many players that showed litte interest to leading but only in those key utilities that brought firepower to the battlefield. It improved there ability to kill.

Many CR5 might feel stept on there toes, for me saying this. If so, ask your self this, would you have gone through the effort, time and hard work to get to CR5, if it didn't have an EMP Jammer Blast and Orbital Strike? If so, then consider your self one of the better leader out there and your not one of those hungry for power to kill.

Command ranks should have access to information tools and more utilities that improve there leading abilities, not the kind that kills, that only attract the wrong kind of players.


I'm not saying EMP Jammer Blast and OS should have been removed from the game, the have there use. There access to them however should be team based effort in there use, not executed by a one man army. Limiting there use to prevent them from tipping the scales of balance as they frequently do now in planetside.

How I don't know, thats good for an other topic to disuse. But keeping them out of the command rank system to attract those that want to lead and not those that want power is a good start one way or an other.

Having command rank level system is a good basis if you combine it with point decay over time. This separates the dedicated, those who want to lead from those who dont want to.

For a long time I considered my self a grunt, a soldier who follows orders and doesn't give them. Almost always joined existing squads or got invited to them, but rarely created them or wanted to be squad leader, yet still I made CR2 with with out any interest for commanding.

I'm not really surprised to see that we have so many high command ranked after so many years.

How fast this Command Rank decay should be I don't know, but loosing CR1, 10,000 CEP points over a period of 14 days should be manageable for your Joe average wannabe leader.

Last time I set out to gain Command Experience Points, I got on average 1500~2500 CEP points per base cap that a an average amount of fighting/resistance and was CR2 after several battle sessions, don't know if this is still the case, the decay rate might need some tweaking :D

Once you reach CR5 you should be able to keep on gaining more Command Experience Points so you don't drop back to CR4 the next day because you lost an x amount of command points. (No point decay for inactive accounts either)

A 3 point leader ship certification that slows down the point decay might be worth having for players who want to lead and command, but has less time on there hands, the weekend warriors.

I'm pretty sure there are a few other ways to enhance the Command Rank System, but I'm very sure that not having the EMP Jammer Blast and the OS in the command rank system would filter out a lot players who have little interest of leading.