Man Made Climate Change

[Jonny]

I got this PM from Livefire after we got talking about global warming on a PSN thread and it got off topic. I'm posting my response to try and help any other climate change skeptics understand the point of view of the proponents. Thats why i'm bothering posting on a Planetside forum I guess, this issue matters to everybody.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zeGY8zbzc8&feature=related

I should watch if I want to be brain washed by Oil Company propaganda. (And i did watch your video - trust me i'd love to believe it) You can tell yourself what you like, but there IS scientific evidence that man made climate change is happening. Don't think you can just deny it and then, oh its fine to just pollute as much as you like and drive a gas guzzling SUV. Everyone needs to be taking steps to help the planet and reduce their personal carbon footprint. I plan to do as much as I can in my life, and so should you because every individual counts.

Check this site out for a graph showing our C02 parts per million being the highest for 650,000 years. http://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Or this for a video example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9ob9WdbXx0&feature=related

Bear in mind that oil companies are big and powerful, they are going to lose out on a transition to greener ways of living. Also look inside yourself and ask if you think its morally acceptable to go on polluting this planet you live in, destroying rainforest, animals and environments.

I like to think, if it couldn't be argued any way, why not want to create a cleaner, more healthy and naturally abundant world for our children, instead of going on destroying it and polluting it blindly and unconsciously?

[raw]

YouTube - 1. Climate Change -- the scientific debate

[Firefly]

Every time some fucking idiot tells me we're enduring global warming, I resist the urge to rape his asshole with my size 12 Doc Martin boot, stare at the three-foot pile of snow that is sitting outside, and ask him how he can explain that, as well as the enormous amount of snow we got last year in this area, oh and the previous year, OH and the year before that.

He usually stammers and says something like "Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um... Uh. Well. Um..."

And then he tries to sell me on some more bullshit. And then I resist the urge to rape his asshole with my size 12 Doc Martin boot, stare at the three-foot pile of snow that is sitting outside, and ask him how he can explain that, as well as the enormous amount of snow we got last year in this area, oh and the previous year, OH and the year before that.

Livefire is one of those fucking idiots. That kid is a fucking dolt. Read his posts. Someone should invent a time machine and send that guy back to the 60s so he can be a peacenik hippie conspiracy theorists with the rest of them.

[raw]

Every time some fucking idiot tells me we're enduring global warming, I resist the urge to rape his asshole with my size 12 Doc Martin boot, stare at the three-foot pile of snow that is sitting outside, and ask him how he can explain that, as well as the enormous amount of snow we got last year in this area, oh and the previous year, OH and the year before that.

He usually stammers and says something like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nJuAslQPaY

And then I realize what a tremendous fool I am, that prefers violence over actually understanding my own arguments.


fixed.

[Firefly]

I stopped listening as soon as I heard his Sassenach "I'm a wanker" voice.

[raw]

I stopped listening as soon as I heard his Sassenach "I'm a wanker" voice.

Yeah. Except that he has 30 years of experience in the field as scientific journalist. But I completely agree with you, we should just listen to people with the right tone of voice. I mean if we don't like his voice, he can't have important or correct things to say, right?

[Firefly]

I'd prefer it if he had that guy from Korn doing it. That way, he could impart words of scientific journalism wisdom along with some whiny emo crying about how his daddy touched him, along with some Tazz-like growls...

"nnnnRATDATDAT DA MMMMM BRWOWWWWW DEERDEER DEER so the first thing I do, as you all knowwwwRAWR DATDADTDATDGRRRR blehhh my daddy fucked me, is to track the information back to its source DUNDUNDUNTDAHHH twist... twist... RRRRRRR ROWR!"

Doesn't that sound much more interesting?

[Jonny]

Firefly, really what are you talking about?

Even if you don't like his voice, you can still watch the video and give an intelligent answer about your opinion and not something about kicking someone up the ass.

Also what happens (ie snow) in your back garden/town isn't whats happening in the whole world. Or even if it happens in your whole country.

Check out this article if your interested in more about that point: http://blogthechange.wordpress.com/

[Hamma]

Climate Change is an interesting debate, when really there isn't a whole lot of debate needed. One might argue that the crazy cold and storms we have seen this winter are in fact caused by global warming because the "Change" is also measured in unusual weather patterns.

Food for thought.. ;)

[Jonny]

Climate Change is an interesting debate, when really there isn't a whole lot of debate needed. One might argue that the crazy cold and storms we have seen this winter are in fact caused by global warming because the "Change" is also measured in unusual weather patterns.

Food for thought.. ;)

Good point. OM NOM NOM

Edit: Did America have huge snow storms lately then?

[Firefly]

Firefly, really what are you talking about?
I think the whole fucking debate is stupid, honestly. One side insists the one thing, another side insists quite the opposite. Everyone provides their own compelling arguments and empirical evidence. Then they decry the other side as being corporate tools, or they denounce Al Gore's video because he's a liberal Democrat who lied about inventing the internet, or some other stupid politically-motivated argument. Meanwhile conspiracy theorists abound on the left and the right. Then you've even got people on both sides saying "I lied and fudged data to make it look legit, because my paycheck was on the line". And then you get some pleb party-liner asshole who wants to come ram his opinion down your throat like we should bow to his superior mouth-piece skills. I fucking hate zealots, particularly ignorant zealots who can't be arsed to do their own bloody homework first. Now, in defense of the Englishman in the video, I admire his ability to put two and two together. Research is always a good thing (take note, Lifefail, and stop copying shit from wikipedia).

So my entire point in this whole goatfuck of a forum post was to poke fun at the entire issue. I like how raw edits his posts and gets all butt-hurt that I can't take the damned thing seriously. Sorry I offended you, home skillet. Cheers, raw! Seriously - who really knows what's going on? Every single side has their own opinion and their own conclusive "shocking" evidence. The whole damned environment has become a single political issue and every side wants to think they're right. It sickens me to my core. Jesus... I sound like a fucking hippie.

Even if you don't like his voice, you can still watch the video and give an intelligent answer about your opinion and not something about kicking someone up the ass.
A) the comment about kicking someone up the ass came before the video.
B) If the old chap is talking the entire video, and I don't like his voice, wouldn't that mean I couldn't really watch the entire thing unless I just sucked it up and drove on? In spite of my mockery of all things English I did bother to watch the video. I just didn't admit it, for the sake of comic relief, because I'm an asshole.

Also what happens (ie snow) in your back garden/town isn't whats happening in the whole world. Or even if it happens in your whole country.
Duh. I've never seen snow in Hawai'i. I've never seen snow in any other tropical location, though funnily enough I've seen snow in West Texas and other desert climates. I just find it ironic and intensely funny that people spout off at the mouth about global warming in the middle of a nation-wide blizzard.

Check out this article if your interested in more about that point: http://blogthechange.wordpress.com/
Contrary to my cavalier attitude toward the farce of global warming or global cooling, I am keenly interested on what happens to my planet. Nobody's invented a wormhole to Auraxis so for the time being I'm stuck here and at the utter mercy of the jackwagons that are ruining this planet.

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it.


Edit: Did America have huge snow storms lately then?
Yes, nationwide. Every state in the nation (except Florida) had snowstorms, and then Florida got a bit of snow so it was every state. Though I doubt they included Hawai'i, so most probably they meant the contiguous US.

[Jonny]

I think the whole fucking debate is stupid, honestly. One side insists the one thing, another side insists quite the opposite...

So my entire point in this whole goatfuck of a forum post...

...Contrary to my cavalier attitude toward the farce of global warming or global cooling, I am keenly interested on what happens to my planet. Nobody's invented a wormhole to Auraxis so for the time being I'm stuck here and at the utter mercy of the jackwagons that are ruining this planet.

Thanks for the link. I appreciate it.

Yes, nationwide. Every state in the nation (except Florida) had snowstorms, and then Florida got a bit of snow so it was every state. Though I doubt they included Hawai'i, so most probably they meant the contiguous US.

Well thanks for your post, you made me laugh at least :)

Sorry to hear you've been snowed in so long with no PSN.

I can understand you being fed up with it. I get fed up with the world every day and all the corruption and horrible stuff humans do to each other. If I was living in the UK and didn't know about the scientific evidence, I'd probably slap someone who told me the earth was warming up, considering the last 2 winters here.

However, I know about the evidence, those co2/temp graphs and all those other signs of a warming planet, and it worries me - as i'm sure it does to you too as you say you care about the planet. :)

I also know that the mega rich oil companies got mega rich from oil (duh) and therefore it's in their greedy interests to keep oil going as long as possible. I also know that some naughty oil companies fund organisations (and set them up) to discredit and deny man made climate change. Now people on the other side of the argument are trying to create a cleaner and better world. Those who profit from that, thats on their concience - but I believe with a positive attitude and a realisation of whats really important in life, we can all make afew sacrifices so we don't have to make the biggest sacrifice of all - losing the only world we know has life on it.

and planetside.

And don't worry about mocking english people because i'm english. I'll probably agree with you. (as long as i can mock americans a bit)

[Firefly]

And don't worry about mocking english people because i'm english. I'll probably agree with you. (as long as i can mock americans a bit)
As a generic ethnic people, I <3 English people. The reason why I mock the English from time to time is its government (much the way you'd mock an American, when in actuality it's their government you mock). I'm somewhat of a Scottish nationalist. :D

[Jonny]

Don't get me started on the government. We've just petitioned and managed to stop them selling off the countries forests and turning them into carparks or whatever those insane people want.

[Firefly]

Don't get me started on the government. We've just petitioned and managed to stop them selling off the countries forests and turning them into carparks or whatever those insane people want.
Movie sets to use as fodder for cinema regarding glorious conquests and subjugation of colonies? :D

Sorry. I'm a bitter old kilted heathen.

[Rbstr]

Firefly....and really...half the country that has no idea what they're "debating" about:
Ahem.

GLOBAL CLIMATE DOES NOT MEAN THE SAME THING AS LOCAL WEATHER.

Thank you,
Person who has environmental chemistry and modeling experience.

The snow in Texas or Florida or where-the-fuck-ever does not in any way provide evidence against global warming.

Global average temperature doesn't mean you can't have some extremely cold, as long as there's more extremely hot elsewhere. Do remember the southern hemisphere is in the middle of summer now....and the northern hemisphere just had a very hot summer.
Though, we actually have a theory about the current spat of severe winters in development: The jet stream typically provides a barrier to the arctic air attempting to come south from the pole. But the jet stream is weakening, presumably because of different surface temperature differentials (which have bearing on pressure differentials that drive the winds). This allows arctic air to move south more readily. Yes, that's just a theory, but it makes sense. There's no real way to test on systems like the earths except for extremely complicated computer models, and those require much more funding that we're often willing to give (though recently things have been better).


Asides from that bit:
There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that we, human beings, have significantly impacted the atmospheric concentrations of CO2. We've more than doubled them in a century. The source of the "new" CO2 is us, not natural processes, we've got good records.
Even if we stopped all CO2 emissions tomorrow it would be on the order of centuries before atmospheric CO2 went back to pre-industrial levels, and even longer for oceanic concentrations.

We also know for a fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. More of it means less heat escapes our atmosphere.

Additionally, we know for a fact that the earth is currently warming, without any attention paid to the cause.

The debate on climate change, in scientist circles, mostly has to do with two things:
How much warmer a given amount of CO2 makes things.
What the warming will do to global weather patterns.
NOT if it's happening or not.

This should be very concerning because there are a number of situations where we hit CO2 runaway. That is at certain, fuzzily-known CO2 concentrations the ability for the Earth to sequester it naturally gets FUBARed. For instance, higher CO2 means more acidic oceans. At a certain pH shellfish can no longer make shells (this already happens in some places). Shells are make of calcium carbonate, which makes them one of the largest sinks of CO2 that exist. So once we reach that point, CO2 concentrations will go up even faster.

The fun is that when you look at the dynamics, its very possible we're beyond that point of no return, and nothing we do will keep us from hitting the "oh shit we done goofed" CO2 threshold.

I can post a couple of book chapters on climate modeling if you guys really want to see it. Unfortunately none of the modeling programs will work because I can't distribute the installer. They also require some differential equations knowledge to really understand.

Now, is Global warming "bad"? That's an entirely different question. "Bad" is more likely than not. It could actually expand the amount of arable land. A benefit in the face of a rapidly growing population.

To sum it up in a sentence: People should be extremely concerned about what we're doing to the atmosphere.

[DviddLeff]

Climate change is real, its happening, and has been happening since the Earth formed from rock and dust.

Are we causing it? I am not sure and even if we are there is no way we are going to stop polluting the way we do with India and China developing with their populations so large and everybody on the planet wanting cars, phones, TVs and cheap flights to somewhere fun. Not to mention every country agreeing to cut carbon emissions by whatever amount by the time they are no longer in office.

Unless we kill off BILLIONS of people or invent cold fusion we are screwed... unless oil runs out in 2025 as predicted and we stop polluting that way.

Either way, we have to deal with more extremes of weather, more desertification and lack of resources.

[Baneblade]

I have no doubt that climate change is real, but I have real doubts that we can cause it.

[Bags]

I heard there can't ever be temperature fluctuation with warming. It has to constantly increase in temperature in a linear fashion. Global warming = increase in average world temperature, not regional per se. So you could have a really cold winter, but it could still average out around the world as warming. I really do love the, "well it snowed a lot last winter, therefore there's no warming" argument.

[Rbstr]

I have no doubt that climate change is real, but I have real doubts that we can cause it.

You should consider the massive impact we have had on ecology, water chemistry and a multitude of other things. The ozone layer is a prime example of how we can mess with the atmosphere itself.

To think that we can't affect our climate run counter to nearly the entirety of human action. Nearly everything we've done effects the natural world somehow. Why is CO2 an exception?

As an example of semi-weather related human-based impacts: The "dust bowl" phenomenon was, at least in part, created by poor farming practices alone.
The Russians have nearly completely drained/evaporated the Aral sea causing massive environmental problems and even local weather pattern changes.

I feel like we should have learned by now that humans can, and will, do nearly anything that is physically possible. It's the great double edged sword we wield.

[DviddLeff]

Do I remember correctly that the countries that agreed to keep global averages below a certain temp by 2040 decided that the temperature to aim below was the tipping point?

0.1 degree over and the oceans release the carbon back into the atmosphere and we are screwed.

[Jonny]

Rbstrs first post hits the mark. There isn't really an argument if its happening and if its due to man. Just look at the amount of cars in the world, all the industry, the ships, planes, pc's, air con, coal plants, forest burning etc etc etc.

Its like having a steak in a plastic wrapped box ready to eat. As that steak goes mouldy and you see patches of mould grow, that bacteria releases gasses as it feeds on the meat. The pressure in the plastic wrapping increases and it bulges, then you pop it open and a release of nasty gas comes out ^^

When I flew back from the Mediterranean afew years back, flying over spain/france you see patches of sprawled human settlements interconnected by roads. These patches seem large and covering a lot of the countries surface. It made me think as it looks just like mould, producing gas and filling our plastic wrapping (atmosphere) with all sorts of gases.

Lets hope we don't have to throw out the earth!

[DviddLeff]

Fact of the matter is that humanity has survived ice ages in the past.

Things are going to change, drastically.

I am more concerned with our population rising too high and wars braking out over food producing territory, and other valuable resources, like, say, oil. :huh:

[Firefly]

Fact of the matter is that humanity has survived ice ages in the past.

Things are going to change, drastically.

I am more concerned with our population rising too high and wars braking out over food producing territory, and other valuable resources, like, say, oil. :huh:
I own lots and lots of guns. I also possess the skills necessary to use them, expertly. In the event of some sort of cataclysmic electro-magnetic pulse that kills off electronic devices, I can also use a sword.

And not the way a fat kid uses a fake katana.

[Peacemaker]

I own lots and lots of guns. I also possess the skills necessary to use them, expertly. In the event of some sort of cataclysmic electro-magnetic pulse that kills off electronic devices, I can also use a sword.

And not the way a fat kid uses a fake katana.

Here here. This redneck is ready for 'geddon too! I welcome a society destroying event. As a whole humanity is made up of idiots, theres too many of us, and the weak somehow survive, usually off the strong backs of the working class (wellfare), and our government has become a cesspool compared to the leaders we had only 70 years ago.

Unless the planet explodes, a dominate species takes over, or the atmosphere is removed humans will survive. But its not going to be the people who just cannot live without their coffee every morning, or couldn't hit a building with a shotgun. It will revert back to what it was in the past. Life will be hard.

Seems to me that people are so worried about this happening because they are going to lose the easy life. Im the kind of guy that looks at most of these people and think "When it happens you are going to die, and I am going to live. Why should I give a fuck?" Ill pack up the 4x4 trail truck, get supplies and take off for the deep woods.

We fucked up as a race, this is how nature intends to kick our ass. :groovy:

[Coreolis]

Honestly, I don't know anything about global warming. I don't know the facts, the graphs, green house gases, none of it. I don't understand any of it. It could all be faked for all I know.

But, I believe in Global Warming and act like its real for one reason, This video. It is the most logical and reasonable video I've seen on the issue, and there really is NO reasonable and logical argument that you can make against it.

YouTube - The Most Terrifying Video You'll Ever See 2

First one is good too but I like this one better

If you're too lazy to watch it (You really should watch it all the way through, not just until like, 4 minutes or something.), the theory is basically this:

If the people who believe in global warming are wrong, but we act on their ideas, worst case scenario is we all lose a lot of money (possibly) and maybe go through a worldwide depression because of investments into greener technology.

If the people who believe global warming Isn't true are wrong, worst case scenario is we all die due to the effects of global warming.

So, is it worth the risk?
Funny thing is, even if we did do something and avoided Global Warming, we'd never even know if it was ever true or not. So the people who said not to act would be all like "See, we were right all along!"

Its so much easier to be a lazy, greedy bastard in this world :doh:
Like the guy in the video says, we only get one shot at this, hope you guys are comfortable with your decisions.

Edit: @Firefly
We've been getting more snow because more water is evaporating as a result of the increased temperatures, resulting in much more precipitation. Namely, the huge snowfalls this year and last.

Winter is Winter, being 2 degrees warmer one year and still being below 32 doesn't mean its going to snow any less.

[Jonny]

Wow. I can't believe i watched that video through but I took your advice and did.

Its a positive message that will hopefully get through to the masses, and at least he's trying. Personally I found that video really patronizing and 'terrifyingly' obvious.

A better way would be to look up global warming on the internet and stay away from oil company funded organisations. Go for the science and try to understand that. Its not that hard to understand.

[321]

In the event of some sort of cataclysmic electro-magnetic pulse that kills off electronic devices, I can also use a sword

He's not kidding. Here is a video of Firefly preparing for this cataclysmic electro-magnetic pulse:

YouTube - Star Wars Kid

[Evilmp]

USA == awesome
Europe == suck

because of this statement we can conclude that climate changes, if any were to occur, would have a positive impact on the USA while encouraging anyone in EU to continue staying indoors sucking penis



this post contains all knowledge the average human requires concerning global warming. you're welcome.

[Traak]

Yes, nationwide. Every state in the nation (except Florida) had snowstorms, and then Florida got a bit of snow so it was every state. Though I doubt they included Hawai'i, so most probably they meant the contiguous US.

Hawaii has snow, each and every year. It's why there's skiing on Mauna Kea in the winter, each and every year.

[Lonehunter]

I really love seeing someone use "It's cold outside" to argue against "Global Warming" lol. It only proves ignorance prevails, I just hope I get to see some even bigger and more frequent natural disasters before my next generation. I don't want them taking all the apocalypse fun.

[Baneblade]

I'm sincerely hope we get hit by a cataclysmic event. If we suddenly lose 5 Billion humans due to the Wrath of the planet, I'll be in my element.