Aircav

[Warborn]

I feel compelled to write on this because it's literally the worst part of Planetside. Aircav combined solo vehicles, with unmatched killing power, and literally the most efficient form of transportation in the game. It's hardly a surprise, then, that aircav certs are overwhelmingly popular.

In Planetside Next, there ought to be some serious changes. First, as they're apparently keeping the same vehicles so far, the way aircraft works needs to change. Hovering is unacceptable and is the source of a lot of the trouble with aircav. However, landing at speed would be strange and silly. So, I think aircav should have two movement modes: Flight, and Land. That is, with the vehicle ability button, aircav would transition between two modes of transit. In Flight, the aircav would have a minimum speed which would be fairly fast, and would have a high max speed and maneuverability. In Land, there'd be no minimum speed, but the max speed would be very small and maneuverability would be worse, and weapons might need to be disabled. The idea would be to give aircav more typical flight characteristics for combat situations, while preserving the VTOL mechanics that work well for them otherwise.

Further, these vehicles need more specific functions. Mosquitoes are a bit more specific than reavers, but even then they do not have a niche beyond being incredibly lethal vs. infantry, which overlaps with essentially everything in the game. Reavers, I think, should be ground-focused (as they are now to an extent) and their armament should more ably reflect that. The chainguns should be anti-infantry, and maybe have a very small explosive radius as well as higher damage. With the above movement change, out would be the ability to hover and aim perfectly, so strafing would be required. They should be dangerous to infantry, as they are now, only actually require a bit more skill to use effectively. Rockets should have essentially no radius and instead should be anti-armor.

The biggest change however I think would be that reavers should be two-person aircraft. Having that much killing power in the hands of a single player is contrary to the principles applied to essentially all PS vehicles, BFRs aside. One person controls the movement, the other person controls the weaponry. This is really the only way to reign in the absolute dominance of reavers that we see in PS today, and since beta really.

Mosquitoes on the other hand need to be basically converted into what wasps were meant to be. Mosquitoes should be air-to-air platforms exclusively and should not infringe upon the air-to-ground aspect that reavers are entitled to. However, reavers should be essentially sitting ducks to mosquitoes. Reavers should not be really viable in destroying the shit out of ground targets if enemy mosquitoes haven't been dealt with.

I really think having a strong dog fighting component do PS would make it a way better game, so to that end it'd be awesome if mosquitoes were made to function more like traditional aircraft. Cannons that can rip apart aircraft (but would lack that explosive characteristic of reaver cannons and thus be far less powerful vs. infantry coupled with the absence of hover-sniping), maybe some missiles with homing capability, and high speed and good maneuverability. I always wanted dog fighting to be fun with PS, but it never really got up to the level it could have. Mosquitoes should be overhauled to fill that role.

Now, the other part that sucks about aircav is how annoying it is for them to deal with ground-to-air fire. The sad fact of the matter is that ground based AA is probably too effective, homing is too reliable and skill-less, but it's all due to the fact that aircav as it is in PS is so overwhelmingly strong that it needs similarly powerful counters. I think that ground-based homing weapons should be fewer in number and FAR less reliable. Homing projectiles should be avoidable with effective maneuvering and should require the firer on the ground to setup the shot properly to maximize accuracy. Flak weapons should also be changed, such that firers might need to manually set the distance at which the projectiles explode.

Overall, the ideas I'm presenting here would I think make aircav a far better part of the game. Dog fighting and air-to-air combat would eclipse ground-to-air fire as the primary way of handling enemy aircraft, reavers would be the team vehicles they always should have been, and all forms of fighting related to aircav would be more skill dependent, from the use of homing AA weapons to spamming flak from a TR MAX to shooting down other aircraft in a skeeter. It might not be perfect, but I think it's a start.

[Wrath]

quiet honestly only thing that i think should change is the abilty to hover those aircraft should be just strifing ground targets nipping in and out of the combat zone quick rather then be hovering death machines.

[DviddLeff]

Looking at the image of the ps next reaver shows it has two seats.

[Peacemaker]

Why does everyone bitch about reavers hovering? When they hover they die. If they don't you don't have AA. If you don't have AA you deserve to die. A mossy should be able to kill infantry, If the COF on the mossy cannon was made that of the wasp I think it would be fine. I have no problem killing infantry with the wasp cannon. It takes a pass or two but I can still do it.

I'm sorry but if a friggen mossy catches you out in the open, alone, with no AA you should die. If your trying to run from a tower to a base with no AA and a reaver sees you, you should be ready to die. Just like if a lightning, a tank, a BFR, a deli, a sky guard... ANYTHING will kill you.

I like the idea of switching flight modes. It works, I strafe, I don't hover. If I'm hovering I'm at max alt looking for a target to strafe. I'd rather see the following changes to the reaver....

If it is a two seater the front seat should be the weapons officer. He either has the option of a mounted chin gun akin to a Apache or Cobra. The Chin Gun could be a grenade launcher or a chaingun. Second Option is an Anti Vehicle Guided Missile. NOT LOCK ON. Fly by wire or Fly by Camera. Fly by camera missile has limited maneuverability and is quite fast (Prevents what we see with Phnx). Splash damage is low, and damage to infantry is low. Pilot seat gets a set of cannons if the gunner has the missile, and unguided rockets if he has the chin gun. Rockets are similar to what we have now. Cannons fire explosive rounds. These do moderate damage to armor and moderate damage to infantry. They have a small splash damage area and do excellent damage to aircraft. (When I say small splash damage I mean SMALL, half a meter).

While in hover mode the maneuverability is comperable to current hovering speeds, strafing speeds. This means the gunship can do "Pop Up" attacks. It can go inverted but will likely crash if doing so (BF style piloting) Max speed is low. Cannot use afterburners.

In flight mode aircraft handles like a.... aircraft. Able to do loops, barrel rolls, ect.

Flight mechanics should be simple yet follow physics. More speed means more energy, A hovering aircraft shouldn't be able to follow a turning high speed flying mode aircraft. Suggest double speed of current max speed. Flying mode enables speed to go from 40kph to 200+ afturburners bring it to 300+ on reaver. Mossy can do 230 - 350 with AB. While in hover mode speed is limited to 40kph. Transition from hover to flight takes a few seconds, meaning if you catch an aircraft hovering with an AA weapon hes pretty toast.

Finally I think they should make aircraft WAAAY more fragile and then Nerf AA quite a bit to compensate. Aircraft in dogfights shouldn't take 50 - 60 hits to take down. A good burst or two should be what you want. Makes dogfighting more intense, makes hovering aircraft dead unless the situation is more controlled. If flak rounds are still around, they need to be sped up, esp the Burster MAX as it cannot engage at range like skyguards, starfires, and sparrows can. Skyguard proj speed could even use a bit of a buff for engaging high altitude targets.

[Raymac]

Why does everyone bitch about reavers hovering? When they hover they die. If they don't you don't have AA. If you don't have AA you deserve to die. A mossy should be able to kill infantry, If the COF on the mossy cannon was made that of the wasp I think it would be fine. I have no problem killing infantry with the wasp cannon. It takes a pass or two but I can still do it.

I'm sorry but if a friggen mossy catches you out in the open, alone, with no AA you should die. If your trying to run from a tower to a base with no AA and a reaver sees you, you should be ready to die. Just like if a lightning, a tank, a BFR, a deli, a sky guard... ANYTHING will kill you.


I feel the same way. Any pilot knows that if you are caught hovering by any AA at all, you are toast. The only time you can really hover safely is when you are camping a base door when your empire already has control of the courtyard. In that case, you are no different than a tank camping a door.

I don't know where this myth came from that reavers can just hover over a battle, raining down OS-type carnage.

[Slamscape]

I think they could fix the hovering if they made the hovering controls like a helicopter, ie. your looking toward the ground, you lose some altitude and start drifting forward.

[Timantium]

It ultimately comes down to their intended roles for the different platforms within aircav. I just hope they do a better job of defining the roles and then equipping the planes so they can really only effectively accomplish the roles they were designed for.

Mossie - light scout (as described in PS). I wouldn't really say that's what people use it for. It's more like a special infantry suit: Rexo armor x 50 and MCG x 50 with jump jets and surge. It should be the air 2 air combat vehicle and a recon plane. Light armor, high speed, maneuverable.

Reaver - This is the air 2 ground assault weapon. Think A-10 Warthog, it's an anti-tank fighter. Slower, less maneuverable than the mossie, but much more powerfully equipped and heavier armor (since it will operate closer to the ground).

Liberator - This is the bomber class, it has adequate defense against the mossie air to air assault with the tail turret gunner and big air to ground capability with the bomb payload. Larger, heavier, slower than both the other planes.

If they include a hovering vehicle, I think it should be an entirely new entry to air cav (like an attack heli style anti infantry aircraft). Maybe even add some transport capability pilot, gunner, 4 passengers. This plane should be for short recon and anti infantry patrol only. It should be slow (thus eliminating the problem of mossie hovering infantry and then after burning away before anyone can shoot at you).

[Aractain]

The reavers hover spam reputation came from early in the game when it could take out entire groups of infantry and vehicles with almost no resitance.
It was heavily nerfed and AA was seriously buffed since then. Both situations were bad for the game.

Both saw bad/lack of gameplay for all involved players.
The mossie replaced it with the buffed 12mm, this was better but AA vs Air was still dumb.

They need to fix all this basic crap in PSN.

[Hamma]

I like the flight mode vs land mode idea. And from what Smed has said on these forums we should see an improved flight mechanic that relies on even more skill. Because let's face it the flying in PS is pretty basic and not extremely hard to get the hang of.

[Kirotan]

Reaver - This is the air 2 ground assault weapon. Think A-10 Warthog, it's an anti-tank fighter. Slower, less maneuverable than the mossie, but much more powerfully equipped and heavier armor (since it will operate closer to the ground).

I think the reaver should be able to handle both air and ground decently, but not be superior in either aspect. The Vulture should be like an A-10; swoop down, hand out death, and keep going without a wing or two.

Lastly, pilots should be pilots. HA and MA weapons shouldn't fit in the cockpit; if you still want to bail out on the tower with a supressor, be my guest. You can store your MA/SA/HA weapons in the trunk and pull them out after you land.

*edit: typo.

[Elude]

As kirotan said, I think they should limit piloting any flying vehicle to just standard exosuits, It's really gay to see someone pop out of a reaver or mosquito fully armed to the teeth.

Infact I think this should be a thing for almost every type of vehicle except for maybe harassers and any similar type vehicles. This would prevent most people abandoning vehicles, though this is probably for another conversation. If this were the case I think instead of mosquitos and reavers people would actually start using ATV's and harassers for quick solo drop offs.

Anyway, I like the idea of having the reaver a 2 man craft, I imagine it would perform much like a helicopter in air to ground combat. I also agree that mosquitos should be the new wasp, I think while it should be able to take out infantry, it should be more focused toward anti air.

[Bags]

As kirotan said, I think they should limit piloting any flying vehicle to just standard exosuits, It's really gay to see someone pop out of a reaver or mosquito fully armed to the teeth.

Or just remove air cav's ability to easily farm infantry.



Lastly, pilots should be pilots. HA and MA weapons shouldn't fit in the cockpit; if you still want to bail out on the tower with a supressor, be my guest. You can store your MA/SA/HA weapons in the trunk and pull them out after you land.


Honestly I don't understand why this argument keeps coming up. "hurr there's no room in the cockpit, but I can carry five mini chain guns on my person while grunting"

You can't arbitrarily force realism to remove others' play styles simply because you are not able to counter them.

[Peacemaker]

I think the reaver should be able to handle both air and ground decently, but not be superior in either aspect. The Vulture should be like an A-10; swoop down, hand out death, and keep going without a wing or two.

Lastly, pilots should be pilots. HA and MA weapons shouldn't fit in the cockpit; if you still want to bail out on the tower with a supressor, be my guest. You can store your MA/SA/HA weapons in the trunk and pull them out after you land.

*edit: typo.

What if Pilots can get a "Survival Rifle"? A semi automatic rifle with decent range and damage, DPS is slightly lower than MA, range is shorter. Something so they can atleast prevent a horrible death in a field surrounded by pissed off infantry.

[Bags]

If they nerf pilot weaponry it needs to be across the board. No HA / MA for tank pilots, tank gunners, galaxy passengers, fury drivers, SG drivers, etc. You know, for the realism.

[Sirisian]

I think the perfect system was written up a while back. Okay each aircraft has a boost bar. This boost bar like normal can be activated for more speed. However, there's a catch. A plane that isn't moving over a certain speed will fall out of the air. To stop from falling the boost can be used.

So if a plane is just sitting on the ground it would need to use the boost ability to lift off. Simply trying to fly forward would just scratch against the ground. Since when landed the engines are pointed down the plane would be forced up when using boost giving the plane the initial altitude to begin moving forward. This would work for every plane and stops the ability of hovering somewhat. It's still possible to charge the boost bar up then slow down and launch say a few rocket in a reaver before falling out of the air. (They'd have enough time to shoot some rockets then be forced to move forward again). Liberator bombers could still slow down for a few seconds to strafe bomb and hopefully gain enough speed before hitting the ground after they run out of boost.

Does this solve all the problems mentioned?

Oh and dog fighting will be enhanced if we get 6 degree of freedom movement. I hope all planes have that at the very least. I always felt like an infantry unit flying around with a gun. Planes should be able to barrel roll and do loops!

[Traak]

Flak weapons should also be changed, such that firers might need to manually set the distance at which the projectiles explode.


How about if pilots had to manually set the exact distance of each and every one of their weapons, also then.

[Traak]

What if Pilots can get a "Survival Rifle"? A semi automatic rifle with decent range and damage, DPS is slightly lower than MA, range is shorter. Something so they can atleast prevent a horrible death in a field surrounded by pissed off infantry.

THEN DON'T BAIL. That solves the problem of being surrounded by infantry.

Pilots get a pistol slot and that's it. If you want something heavier, walk.

We don't let the ground troops carry jump-jet packs so they can fly when necessary, we don't have to let the pilots carry long guns so they can use the aircraft as fast, mobile flight-capable battlemechs and drop on anyone raining death with HA, MA or even a basic suppressor.

If you wanna survive, then be a good pilot. If you want ground infantry war, then WALK. It isn't any more balanced to have uber-armed pilots raining from the sky than it is to have infantry equipped with planes they can whip out of their backpacks and fly off in.

[CutterJohn]

If they nerf pilot weaponry it needs to be across the board. No HA / MA for tank pilots, tank gunners, galaxy passengers, fury drivers, SG drivers, etc. You know, for the realism.

Its not a direct apples to apples comparison. Bailing from a ground vehicle meant you are a squishy in the midst of a land battle, and still in the sights of what was just shooting you.

Bailing from aircav meant AA weapons no longer had any effect on you, and the majority of the time you land out of the line of sight of whatever was shooting you in the first place.

To me it was that I didn't get to finish the kill that was the most frustrating aspect, because it robbed me of BEP, even though I succeeded in my job of taking the aircraft out. Those that bailed on top of me with AV were somewhat of an annoyance, and I often wished that MAXs could carry additional weapons to swap out for such times, which would only be fair.. They switched from vulnerable to AA max to AA max killer by bailing.. I should be able to switch from AA max to AI max. :D

[Warborn]

Actually I think aircraft bailing should also be removed from every aircraft except specific troop transport craft, and even then, only passenger "troop slots" should have the ability to bail out. Pilots should be restricted to light armor, even a specific "flight armor" for the cool cosmetic value instead of just standard agile armor, and they should never ever be able to avoid death by pressing a button. How often do you see galaxies these days? How often do you see people landing/bailing from their aircav on top of a tower, pulling out HA, and going to town? There is a problem here when single-man combat aircraft are the primary aircraft transports in the game while actual transport aircraft gather dust aside from gimmick stuff or the odd outfit op.

Either that or infantry should also get to push a button and randomly teleport somewhere in the general area to possibly avoid death, and ground vehicle drivers too. Aircraft shot down should careen to the ground, explode in fiery death, and give the person who killed it a kill like any sensible game would do.

Why does everyone bitch about reavers hovering?

They bring it up ("bitch" I guess is what people do when they have opinions that differ from your own?) because it's a major problem with the game that they've suffered through for years. And now that they're redoing the game, it's finally the chance for this to be addressed and hopefully solved.

As for the idea that if reavers hover they spontaneously explode midair, they've been hovering to great effect since day 1. They hover outside tower doors, they sneak up on infantry and vehicles and hover behind them to unload missiles, they hover up behind hovering enemy aircraft and shoot them... it's actually quite silly when you think about it. They're not really aircraft at all, they're... floating... missile ninjas.

[Raymac]

I'm all for having a specific flight suit, I just want to make sure I can still carry my glue gun. Some of the continents are light on air towers. (I'm looking at you Esamir)

[Warborn]

Yeah, really the only thing I think needs to be avoided is aircav being a replacement for galaxies and the like. If you want to get guys with big guns on top of towers or bases you should have to use teamwork. Unless they add in some sort of jet pack armor that is.

[CutterJohn]

Yeah, really the only thing I think needs to be avoided is aircav being a replacement for galaxies and the like. If you want to get guys with big guns on top of towers or bases you should have to use teamwork. Unless they add in some sort of jet pack armor that is.

I would also accept a bf2142 style grunt cannon on the bang bus.

[Spazmodian]

I'm all for having a specific flight suit, I just want to make sure I can still carry my glue gun. Some of the continents are light on air towers. (I'm looking at you Esamir)

The way I'd like to see it done is to make Standard armor the 'flight suit.' And to make almost all enclosed vehicles require Standard or less to operate. The exceptions would be for land transports where the driver would be restricted to Agile and gunners could wear Reinforced. Any rider positions would be any armor as that is the purpose of that position, to transport infantry.

The armors can be modified slightly to make the system more linear and provide purpose to all armor types while forcing players to make more decisions about their desired role. Armor values and inventory size would remain the same and I wouldn't want to change the Infiltration Suit or Agile at all, but I would reduce the size of one of the long gun slots on the Standard and Reinforced armor to a 6x3 slot. That would mean Standard couldn't carry AV/HA/Sniper, and Reinforced would prove inefficient to carry two of those types with them as they would be forced to swap out from inventory.

This would mean pilots/drivers/gunners would have to dedicate themselves to the role a bit more. It would also help diminish the one-man-army issues. The change to Reinforced should also help keep more vehicles alive longer as AV wouldn't be every heavy infantry's secondary weapon.

[DviddLeff]

Spaz that;s exactly the changes I make in the upgrade project for standard and rexo.

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/infantry-armour-overhaul

[Der Baron]

I always thought the best and easiest way to balance hot dropping/bailing would be to give everyone who jumps off of a mosquito/reaver falling damage (which would have to be vastly increased, the original PS had almost none), thus forcing mossie hot droppers to fly a risky maneuver.

Anyone wanting to jump off from a much higher (and safer) altitude would then have to use the galaxy.

That way everyone gets what he wants, I think. Even more skill required for the hardcore mossie droppers and a nice buff for the galaxy teamwork.

[BlazingSun]

I like the ideas of the thread starter. However giving the Pilot no weapons at all is a bit lame maybe. Maybe the Pilot should have control over some small Rocketpods that do average damage to vehicles. The Gunner would get control over the machine gun and a guided missile. To do some real damage to vehicles, you would need a gunner, also to defend yourself from the Mosquitos, as the aircraft is otherwise pretty helpless against them.

A pistol only for pilots might be over the top as well. Maybe it would be a good idea to bring (more) Submachine Guns / Machine Pistols (Personal Defense Weapons) into the game. Short to medium range, high rate of fire, low damage per shot.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_oZaomizvY8M/TS680-3gjAI/AAAAAAAAJoU/brqFdyzWPXg/s1600/pp2000_01.jpg

[Hamma]

Not a bad idea, I'll take two :brow:

[Kirotan]

I too would like to subscribe to the SMG's for PS:N next newsletter.

[Vancha]

What if bailing was more like an ejector seat? Rather than hurtling to the ground like hotdropping from a galaxy, you shot up slightly then drifted down with a parachute, making you an easy/visible target? That way there'd be an additional element to bailing, such as bailing into forests for cover or something. Definitely get rid of the inaction/landing animation though.

Actually, having mentioned parachutes, I'm having mental images of galaxy paratroopers blotting out the sky with a cloud of empire colours and logos.

Perhaps you could both hotdrop or parachute from a galaxy, giving you a choice between dropping quickly or slowly descending while firing off your weapon of choice.

Edit: My brain's hamster wheel's started turning. What if hot dropping was like WH40k's drop-pods? That way you can prepare your weapon, but do no damage nor be damaged before hitting the ground (similar to HART insertions, I suppose.)

[Bags]

I'd be fine with being an easy target. It's not too often I land on a roof and need to be fighting THE SECOND I LAND any more.

[Peacemaker]

I'm all for SMGs, but Id rather see a carbine like weapon. Id still like to see a bail feature in some aspect. Auto eject 1/10 times on critical damage? Something to make it so I can get out of a doomed aircraft and have a heart pounding adventure trying to return to friendly lines once and a while.

[Aractain]

You mean throw a nade at your feet? Maybe press instant action? Do you really think bailing creates good gameplay if you were shot down?

[Peacemaker]

Yes it does. If you get shot down over a hot area it can be hella fun trying to live,

[Aractain]

For me those kinds of situations are very rare. Some of the time I bail and im alone in a forest = plasma feet. Most of the time I simply get killed by someone other than the person who shot me down.

Id rather see some kind of gameplay like that built into the game at more predictable moments than just randomly when flying. Its not like infantry/ground get something similar due to the lack of fast movement before hand.

I would say the amount of fun 'lost' due to bailers FAR out weighs the fun gained by the occasional hollywood moment. Think about the big picture.

[Slamscape]

I think pilots' bailing should maybe take say 2-3 seconds after activation, it shoots the pilot up into the air high enough to avoid the explosion (maybe random direction), and then they float down either at the same speed they do now, or slightly slower. I feel like this would help with those last second bailing before explosion, and make the mossy rush bail a little less effective.

[Bags]

For me those kinds of situations are very rare. Some of the time I bail and im alone in a forest = plasma feet. Most of the time I simply get killed by someone other than the person who shot me down.

Id rather see some kind of gameplay like that built into the game at more predictable moments than just randomly when flying. Its not like infantry/ground get something similar due to the lack of fast movement before hand.

I would say the amount of fun 'lost' due to bailers FAR out weighs the fun gained by the occasional hollywood moment. Think about the big picture.

Just don't let people bail past 50%.

[BlazingSun]

Just don't let people bail past 50%.

I'm against that. The Bailout malfunctions that were put into the game got the suicide tree/ground crashing started or at least increased it by 1000%. It was annoying and stupid not beeing able to bail. I prefered the 'losing control' of the aircraft thing over that nonsense.

[Kirotan]

Maybe they should award BEP for destroying vehicles and making pilots bail out of aircraft. You can bail at any amount of health you want, I still get *some* exp. Feel free to crash into a tree also; I get the kill.

[lostabyss]

If they include a hovering vehicle, I think it should be an entirely new entry to air cav (like an attack heli style anti infantry aircraft). Maybe even add some transport capability pilot, gunner, 4 passengers. This plane should be for short recon and anti infantry patrol only. It should be slow (thus eliminating the problem of mossie hovering infantry and then after burning away before anyone can shoot at you).

i like this. to branch off of it, what if we had two kinds of galaxy type airships? one is a hovering/heli style that could hold more people and is for drop offs/pickups. meaning you land, spill out an infantry team and they blow things up over the hill. mainly for more spec ops/under the radar/surprising type infantry stuff.
the other type would be a jet version (no hover) that would be used how we normally use one today, hot drops, and things in enemy territory.

would have to work out reasoning and benefits between the two though. in real life, heli dropoffs are used in places that a jet can't land, and may be too dangerous to parachute troops into. maybe the heli version could be used as a place to regear similar to an AMS, but isn't a mobile spawnpoint... (unless flying? you know, to fill up the seats... hey, it's already established that this is the more arcadey of the two MMOFPS games.)

[Effective]

Make it so aircraft can't fire and hover at the same time. Bam 90% of the problems related to aircraft are fixed. This allows us to also to remove some of the AA from the game (upgraded wall turrets, Cerberus turrets)