Damage to players driving open top vehicles (ATV, buggy)

[Timantium]

I thought of this while I was reading the headshot thread.

Shouldn't we be able to shoot players and kill them when they are driving ATV or buggys?

I do not agree with headshots, but I do think if you shoot a player who is driving an ATV it should damage the player instead of the ATV. One of the things I hated the most was to watch a MCG queer lag past me on his fury dive off, appear behind me and kill me before I could put my lancer away.

[DviddLeff]

Yep apparently he devs wanted to do this in the original if I remember correctly.

[Tikuto]

Yep apparently he devs wanted to do this in the original if I remember correctly.yeah I got vague memory of that, too, now that you cued it. O_

[Bags]

Because buggies aren't weak enough already? I mean, they can kill SGs reliably and that's about it. Lightnings too, providing they catch them off guard.

[Raymac]

I'd rather be shooting at an ATV than a Rexo with my Phoenix, but I still like the idea. If they arn't covered by a canopy, then they should be hit by bullets, right?

[I SandRock]

Only if you give them shields that cover the player until it is down. Otherwise ATV / buggies are even more useless than they already are (Exception of SG)

[Timantium]

Only if you give them shields that cover the player until it is down. Otherwise ATV / buggies are even more useless than they already are (Exception of SG)

Is the added speed not a form of shield? It would still require the shooter to hit the driver and not the vehicle in order for the driver to take damage.

I am specifically tired of ATV jerks lagging in at 80 kph and jumping off with full health as I explode their ATV with my lancer only to have them appear somewhere behind me and kill me with their HA gun before I can turn around or put my lancer away.

At least make them take damage or have a longer delay to pull out their weapon after bailing from the ATV.

[I SandRock]

Is the added speed not a form of shield? It would still require the shooter to hit the driver and not the vehicle in order for the driver to take damage.


Which really isn't that hard as you are quite open in a buggy, and probably more than half of an ATV is your body + using AV weaponry the explosive would hit both.


I am specifically tired of ATV jerks lagging in at 80 kph and jumping off with full health as I explode their ATV with my lancer only to have them appear somewhere behind me and kill me with their HA gun before I can turn around or put my lancer away.

At least make them take damage or have a longer delay to pull out their weapon after bailing from the ATV.

That's a separate issue and having to do with the PS engine/netcode. I certainly do hope that PS:n has fixed warping as you can't really justify that any more to today's gamers

[kaffis]

If players are vulnerable to fire in a given vehicle, they should not be killed by the destruction of said vehicle.

Otherwise, the vehicle is a LIABILITY, as it now makes them vulnerable to both types of broad categories of damage (AV and AI) at once.

I can see the reasoning, but I think that soft vehicles (particularly the buggies) have little enough going for them as is, without targetting them with new weaknesses. ATVs might be a bit of a different matter, though, as they're universally solo vehicles and primarily intended for transport, not combat capabilities. Making them even more vulnerable might cause deliverers and sunderers to be more valued.

[CutterJohn]

Drivers of open vehicles could just take a percentage of the damage on themselves. No need for extra hitboxes. ATV.. well... he's pretty exposed. The driver gets 50% of the damage.

A buggy, considerably less exposed, and the driver only takes 10%.


Or they could make bailing at high speeds very dangerous. :D

[Dreamcast]

Yeah they should get hit if the player is aiming at them.....Even vechiles with windows should be hit.

[I SandRock]

Here's a solution. Add bulletproof windows to buggies. Add bullet proof casing around ATV. You now understand why you can't shoot people while they are on these vehicles.

Seriously, the idea of realism is nice in this case, I fully agree. But in gameplay terms you are asking to nerf the vehicles that are already hardly used due to their weakness (only exception being the Skyguard). The ATV the way it is at the moment is perfect. It's great for transport, really easy to kill, quite weak to kill with, but still has it's potential (FURY especially).

Yes warp bailing is annoying but that's not something you solve by this suggestion but by fixing the netcode.

[Timantium]

Here's a solution. Add bulletproof windows to buggies. Add bullet proof casing around ATV. You now understand why you can't shoot people while they are on these vehicles.

Seriously, the idea of realism is nice in this case, I fully agree. But in gameplay terms you are asking to nerf the vehicles that are already hardly used due to their weakness (only exception being the Skyguard). The ATV the way it is at the moment is perfect. It's great for transport, really easy to kill, quite weak to kill with, but still has it's potential (FURY especially).

Yes warp bailing is annoying but that's not something you solve by this suggestion but by fixing the netcode.

Ok, if this is the solution, then lets add bulletproof windows and make bailing have a chance to fail or at least take longer since they will have to dive through bulletproof windows.

If I am able to use my AV weapon (the one you actually have to aim) to kill something tiny moving at 80 clicks then I should have more of a chance to claim the kill by destroying the vehicle.

[I SandRock]

Ok, if this is the solution, then lets add bulletproof windows and make bailing have a chance to fail or at least take longer since they will have to dive through bulletproof windows.

If I am able to use my AV weapon (the one you actually have to aim) to kill something tiny moving at 80 clicks then I should have more of a chance to claim the kill by destroying the vehicle.

You're trying to apply the wrong solution to the wrong problem :P

Yeah, ATV high speed bailing, lagging/warping and then killing a person is bad game design. But a better fix (imo) would be to, as I said, fix netcode so there is no warping upon bailing and add a (longer) weapon delay after bailing so that they cant immediately pull their gun out and start shooting.

This should get rid of the i ride into you and bail and lolstrafe while killing you tactic :P


As for infantry AV not being able to hit a fast moving ATV very easily, thats how it's suppose to be if you ask me.

[Bags]

If they fix the netcode in PSN there's absolutely no reason to change ATVs. Seriously, stop trying to remove play styles that are not your own. I see a lot of that on these forums.

[The Desert Fox]

I agree with bags on this one, let it be, let it be :D

[Timantium]

As for infantry AV not being able to hit a fast moving ATV very easily, thats how it's suppose to be if you ask me.

2 out of 3 of the empire specific infantry AV weapons target atv just fine.

My argument is if I adequately ambush a vehicle I should have some way of getting the kill. Under the current system, it is very hard, near imossible to get kills on ATV with infantry weapons because they can jump off and still have full health. The two separate issues are connected. Either I need to be able to damage the driver while they are driving the vehicle, or it needs to take longer for them to bail or they need to take damage from bailing.

Right now, the ATV is like an extra shield on their stats because I have to kill them both separately.

That is not a realistic physical relationship. The warp bailing is bad mechanics and, you're right, an entirely different issue. If my damage from hits on the person effected the person instead of the vehicle, this problem would be solved.

[I SandRock]

2 out of 3 of the empire specific infantry AV weapons target atv just fine.

Lancer is fine like that because it has other drawbacks. TR lock-on should be removed completely. Seriously try use an ATV yourself, or a buggy. Especially against TR there is no point currently. Only the SG has any use.

ATV's arent overpowered - at all.

[Timantium]

I'm not suggesting this as a nerf to ATV certs or that current ATVs are overpowered. I agree that the striker is ezmode and should be changed to require more skill from the user. That is another issue for another thread.

My suggestion is to make the game more realistic in regards to how the open top vehicles distribute (or in this case don't distribute) damage to the vulnerable driver. I don't for a second think the ATV should be a viable ground battle weapon, this is probably why military forces around the world are not commonly seen with ATV weapons.

I see these more as a low cert, quick transport for solo players who want to travel in Rexo gear. I still cert ATV, for this very reason. If I was a lower BR it would probably be the only vehicle cert I would keep while I earned ranks.

Buggys are different, and in smaller scale fights I like the buggy to get around with a squadmate. I see the buggys not as front line vehicle battle participants (at least not where the tanks can roll/hover), but rather as two-seat recon, anti infantry (AA in the SG case) and fast travel vehicles. The military uses jeeps to transport officers around, not to lead the assault.

So once again, I am not trying to suggest that the vehicles be nerfed. I want their roles to be defined clearly in PS:N and for the damage distribution to be more realistic.

[I SandRock]

I understand. I would like realism too where if you hit somebody that is out in the open, you hurt them. BUT everything always needs to take a backseat to what works in gameplay terms.
You brought up reasons that said ATVs were too strong and this would be the fix (you couldn't kill them with AV etc.) That's why I said they are fine as they are.

If it's purely about realism, yeah i agree. But if this would be implemented ATVs would actually be nerfed in the process. As well as buggies. And that's something I don't want. Hence why I said add a shield to the ATV (like you get shields on galaxy etc atm) which you first have to shoot down and then you can hurt the driver/vehicle. That would bring the balance back a bit.


As for buggies. I agree to some extend. I do think you give them too little value and only see them as two person transport, pretty much. I wouldn't compare buggies too jeeps but more to APCs. They are light vehicles meant to mostly harass anything bigger than them through hit and run tactics (guerilla warfare). Get in, hit them, get out fast. They would never be able to have a 1vs1 head to head fight with a heavy tank and win. They DO serve mostly as AI (except for SG which in my opinion is great and perfectly balanced at the moment). The AI empire specific (and I mostly have experience with the trasher) are too weak in my opinion, especially and most notably when fighting the TR with lock on weapons. The buggies lack a lot of defense but have speed to their advantage, speed doesn't work against lock ons though. Well, you could argue you can hide faster but that also means you are hiding most of the time as pretty much every grunt, especially TR, carries an AV weapon.

I remember some 2-3 years ago when these vehicles were more useful. They were good against AI but when focused on couldn't attack for very long. They were also useful when combined with heavy tanks. I used the trasher alongside magriders to annoy BFRs and get them to fire at me while the magriders would barrage them. And if they stopped focusing on me you could focus fire on them and still do some decent damage.

If you were to introduce this change, it would be a nerf to buggies as well. Which in their current state I don't find fair. Even more so than the ATV because the vehicle itself is already very vulnerable and can't take a beating. The advantage of firing at the driver is that they can't bail and still have a running chance. (So its an ATV nerf).
Buggies however are suppose to last much longer than ATVs. If you were to expose the driver then the easiest and faster way to get rid of the buggy is to fire near the driver window. With AV weapons you already have a huge blast radius so this would severely weaken the defenses.
It also wouldn't make much sense to me that in the future they get rid of driver protection and just put them out in the open to be honest :p

[Timantium]

So it appears we all agree that TR "look ma, no hands!" AV weapons need to be redesigned.

Regarding everything else, it sounds like you would simply prefer a buff to ATV and buggy certs.

Fair enough, lets beef the armor plating on buggy's to protect the driver and make the openings to shoot inside at the driver/gunner smaller or harder to hit. Lets add a windshield or some energy/magnetic shielding on ATV to boost the defensive capability.

What if we split the dmg 75/25 or 60/40 when you shoot passenger zones on an atv or buggy? AV weapons already do less dmg to players anyway and vice versa so perhaps we can split the dmg and apply it to both through a specific (or even a variable depending on where you aim) ratio. Sort of like how the BFR have that sweet spot. Maybe we should be able to cause functionality dmg to all vehicles for hitting their weak spots. (This might be an interesting idea for another thread actually).

I used the harasser to cordinate outfit LLU runs all the time. The Thrasher is not a bad buggy if you get a decent gunner. I love the lawnmower that the TR use and the deci on wheels has plenty of uses as well. People don't cert it because there is very little creativity left in the open field part of the game. Everyone is Air Cav, HA, AA, gimp.

Case in point: I splashed 6 reavers and 3 mossies off the pad at Orisha last night in a Starfire. This was over a 4 minute period. I felt dirty.

[I SandRock]

I do think they could use a little love, or perhaps AV could use a nerf. That's why I don't want to see an additional nerf come to them. As long as they give a buff to make up for the driver vulnerability i'm all game ;)

[Bags]

Buff the striker and make it harder to use so it's comparable to the god-of-all-esav, the lancer.