[Chainfall Original] Air Cruisers: Next

[Baneblade]

PlanetSide lacks a naval aspect, but the idea that the future armies will be using water based navies when they have the technology to hover indefinitely is slightly absurd. The obvious solution to that is to bring the naval aspect to the game in an air ship capacity. This also adds some major gameplay concerns. So my solution:

Outfit Air Cruisers as Outfit Bases and Outfit Dependent Assets intended to support the Empire on the Outfit level.

Air Cruisers are owned and operated by outfits using outfit points as the currency interface with the empire. Outfit points could be renamed to Prestige.

Air Cruisers must be the following:

Significant Assets
Strategic Assets
Vulnerable Assets
Permanent Assets (the cruiser never despawns unless destroyed or sold back to the empire at a loss)
Outfit Level Assets (no single player can get one in any reasonable amount of time)

Air Cruisers must not be the following:

Ground Farming Mechanism
Empire Spawn Point
One Man Killing Machine
Easily Replaced
Spammable (outfits can only own one at a time)

So how do we do this? First of all separate the ground game from the air game from the air cruiser game. Ground fights should not have a significant impact on what an air cruiser is doing and the air cruiser should not dominate the ground fights. The only interaction between the two is collateral (an air cruiser being destroyed can have negative impacts on anything below it) and having the air cruiser acting as an outfit spawn point. Similarly nothing based on the ground can really affect the air cruiser. The air game is a little different, other than a few small short range AA weapons the cruiser has no defenses against things like Reavers, but the Reavers don't have any significant ways of damaging the cruiser either.

The only real threat to a cruiser is enemy cruisers (friendlies too I spose). And the only thing the cruiser is a significant threat to is other cruisers. All of the weapons are designed and intended for cruiser on cruiser engagements.

Cruisers acting as outfit spawns will have an effect on the ground game, but no more than an AMS outside of an SOI. And the cruiser will be a giant target for enemy air cruisers wanting to cash in on the million(s) xp kill.

There is a lot of stuff and potential stats that need to be covered, but the basic idea is ready for discussion.

Addendum I: Air Cruisers would be altitude and attitude locked. They would have the aspects of water based naval ships except their 'sea level' would be a specific altitude range even if zero.

The idea here is to both force geography into play as well as disallow the air cruiser from 'landing' to bring its equatorial focused weaponry to bear on targets they weren't ever intended to engage. Gunships that wander into the air cruiser engagement plane are toast, but there is nothing wrong with that.

Addendum II: Crews would have a minimum compliment of 3 to 5 bridge crew other than gunners and support personnel.

Possible crew positions:

Commander (The Captain)
Helm (The Driver)
Tactical (The Gunner Coordinator and The 'Torpedo' Launcher)
Engineer (The Systems Manager, probably lies to The Captain about how long repairs will take)
Navigator (Assists the Driver) (Defunct)
Point Defense Gunner (The AA)
Secondary Weapons Gunner (The 'Phasers')
Damage Controller (Gluegun repairing systems)
Shock Trooper (Spawn, Rearm, Deploy, Die, Rinse, and Repeat Guy)
Infiltrator (Enemy Trying To Disable And/Or Hinder Target Cruiser Guy)

EDIT NOTE : Navigator is now a Command function.

Addendum III: Shield Management is critical to air cruiser survival. The ship's designated Chief Engineer can cert for Air Cruiser Abilities such as Shield Manipulation, Shield Reinforcement, and Shield Fortification.

Addendum IV: Crew Abilities can be certed by anyone, but can only be used by outfit members assigned to the appropriate crew position by the outfit leader or the ship's assigned Captain.

Potential Crew Abilities and Certifications:


6 Basic Cruiser Command : Allows the player to command a Frigate or Destroyer class Air Cruiser
3 -Intermediate Cruiser Command : Allows the player to command a Cruiser class Air Cruiser
3 --Advanced Cruiser Command : Allows the player to command a Battlecruiser class Air Cruiser

3 Basic Cruiser Engineer : Allows the player to act as an Air Cruiser's Engineer : Shield Manipulation Ability Unlocked
2 -Intermediate Cruiser Engineer : Shield Reinforcement Ability Unlocked
2 --Advanced Cruiser Engineer : Shield Fortification Ability Unlocked

3 Basic Cruiser Helmsman : Allows the player to act as an Air Cruiser's Helmsman : SuperCruise Ability Unlocked
2 -Intermediate Cruiser Helmsman : Overload Engines Ability Unlocked
2 --Advanced Cruiser Helmsman : Evasive Maneuvering Ability Unlocked

3 Basic Cruiser Tactical Officer : Allows the player to act as an Air Cruiser's Tactical Officer : Target Control Ability Unlocked
2 -Intermediate Cruiser Tactical Officer : Focus Fire Ability Unlocked
2 --Advanced Cruiser Tactical Officer : Overcharge Ability Unlocked


Addendum V: Crew Abilities are integral to a solid Air Cruiser's functionality, but they require commitment on the part of the crew members.

Engineer Abilities

Shield Manipulation : Engineer can direct normal shield recharge to one shield facing or spread it out equally among all six (Dorsal, Ventral, Port, Starboard, Bow, and Aft shield facings)
Shield Reinforcement : Engineer can burn reserve NTU to bring one shield facing to full strength (continually drains NTU and the other five shield facings while active)
Shield Fortification : Engineer can drop (as in no protection) three shield facings to bolster the other three to full strength. This also directs the recharge normally sent to the dropped facings to the bolstered facings.

Helmsman Abilities

SuperCruise : This ability allows the Helmsman to burn NTU fuel to bring the Air Cruiser to double its normal speed. 120 second charge up, shield recharge disabled, and no maneuvering while active.
Overload Engines : Essentially an Afterburner. It uses NTU to give the Air Cruiser a short burst of speed roughly 200% faster than normal. 20 seconds only, Engines must be repaired to do this again.
Evasive Maneuvering : This ability allows the Helmsman to increase the acceleration rate of the Air Cruiser by 100%. NTU cost when ship changes vector, can only be used for 60 seconds, and Engines need repair before being able to be reused.

Tactical Officer Abilities

Target Control : Allows the Tactical Officer to fire the Air Cruisers Primary Weapon Systems at another Air Cruiser. This ability does require NTU.
Focus Fire : Allows the TO to designate a specific target for the gunners to fire on. This ability is always on and has no cost or drawback.
Overcharge : Allows the TO to Overcharge the PWS for 3 cycles (each activation of Tactical Control is a cycle), increasing the cost of Target Control 1000% and increasing PWS damage by 250%. Weapon systems must be repaired to use this ability again.

Command Abilities

Frigate/Destroyer, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser hulls are all different classes of Air Cruiser. All Command abilities are native to each, which each hull having it's own special ability:

Frigate : Cloaking : Commander can cloak the Frigate. NTU consumed constantly while cloaked, shields are down when cloaked, and no abilities work while cloaked. Shields reactivate 20 seconds after decloaking, but weapons and abilities are available immediately. Spawn timer increased 50% while cloaked.

Destroyer : Pulse : Commander can emit an anti cloak pulse wave which consumes NTU and decloaks any cloaked Frigate (even friendly) within 2000 meters of the Destroyer. 300 second reuse timer.

Cruiser : Logistics : Commander can direct the Cruiser's native shield recharge at another Air Cruiser. Possible to help an enemy AC with this ability. Costs NTU and doubles cost of Engineer Abilities while active.

Battlecruiser : Collector : Passive ability that slowly regenerates NTU by using special collector cells. Can not keep up with demand of constantly used abilities, but can help during prolonged encounters.

Addendum VI: BEP and CEP are integral to PlanetSide character advancement. Air Cruiser Crews should be no exception. There are two new EP pools for Cruiser Crews: CBEP and CCEP.

CBEP is Cruiser Battle Experience Points, which advance the character in Cruiser Battle Ranks. CCEP is Cruiser Command Experience Points, which advance the character in Cruiser Command Ranks. CBR and CCR offer only aesthetic upgrades. They are a mark of experience only.

Crew members will get 50% bep for kills made by outfit members that have spawned at the cruiser and are on the same continent regardless of squad status. Kills made aboard the cruiser give 100% BEP regardless of squad status. The EP is split 40/60 between BEP and CBEP.

Crew members aboard the cruiser DO NOT gain BEP or CEP from base status changes regardless of squad status.

Crew members gain 50% of Air Cruiser kill BEP if aboard the Cruiser at the time of the kill and at least fifteen minutes prior to the kill. Crew members gain 100% only if they are actively manning a Crew Station (Command, Engineer, Helmsman, and TO) and are doing so for at least fifteen minutes before the kill.

The Commander of the Cruiser gets 50% of their BEP share converted into 10% CEP. This means a kill worth 1,000,000 BEP will result in 500,000 BEP and 100,000 CEP for the Commander. Commander CEP is split 20/80 between CEP and CCEP (20,000/80,000).

Addendum VII: Air Cruiser Hull Classifications

Frigate: In General a Frigate in the context of PSN:AC will be simply a generally affordable and cost effective, yet versatile AC for smaller outfits who may never actually have more than 8-10 people online at any time of the day.

Special: Cloak Field (works like AMS cloak)
Decks: Two
Spawn Tubes: One
Equipment Terminals: One
Lockers: None
Drop Tubes: One (DTs have a cooldown of 15 seconds and look like a Spawn Tube, you run in and drop once the cd is ready)
Hangar: None
Aircraft Service Pads: Two (one on port and one on starboard side of the AC)
Command Crew: Two (Command/Helm ; Engineer/Tactical)
Heavy (AS*) Weapons: Two
Medium (AV) Weapon Turrets: Two
Light (AA) Weapon Turrets: Two
NTU Silo: One
Minimum Crew: Six
Optimal Crew: Eight

*AntiShip - Not Gunner controlled; Tactical controls them

Destroyer: These formidable airships are primarily intended for cooperative operations with other ACs, but they are more than capable of solo operations as well.

Special: Anti Cloak Pulse Wave
Decks: Three
Spawn Tubes: Two
Equipment Terminals: Two
Lockers: Yes
Drop Tubes: Two
Hangar: None
Aircraft Service Pads: Four
Command Crew: Three (Command/Helm, Engineer, Tactical)
Heavy (AS) Weapons: Two
Medium (AV) Weapon Turrets: Three
Light (AA) Weapon Turrets: Three
NTU Silo: Two
Minimum Crew: Nine
Optimal Crew: Twelve

Cruiser: The veritable standard fare of the AC world, the Cruiser is easily the most versatile AC for the cost with respectable firepower, utility, and defensive capabilities.

Special: Logistics Shield Boost
Decks: Four
Spawn Tubes: Three
Equipment Terminals: Three
Lockers: Yes
Drop Tubes: Three
Hangar: Small (Star Destroyer Style, hangar door is underneath and the Deck is large enough for a Galaxy to comfortably land and load)
Aircraft Service Pads: None (Hangar replaces them for repair/rearm)
Command Crew: Four (Command, Helm, Engineer, Tactical)
Heavy (AS) Weapons: Three
Medium (AV) Weapon Turrets: Four
Light (AA) Weapon Turrets: Four
NTU Silo: Four
Minimum Crew: Twelve
Optimal Crew: Sixteen

Battlecruiser: The penultimate Air Cruiser, dwarfing all of the rest in every way possible except speed and maneuverability. This monster is not at all cost effective, any outfit investing in one will eventually run out of points to maintain it if it does not score any kills on other ACs.

Special: NTU Collectors (takes roughly an hour to fill a silo)
Decks: Five
Spawn Tubes: Six (Two separate rooms)
Equipment Terminals: Six (^)
Lockers: Yes
Drop Tubes: Six
Hangar: Large (Throughdeck style, entrance door is aft of the hangar, launch door is fore of the hangar)
Aircraft Service Pads: None
Command Crew: Four (Command, Helm, Engineer, Tactical)
Heavy (AS*) Weapons: Four
Medium (AV) Weapon Turrets: Six
Light (AA) Weapon Turrets: Six
NTU Silos: Six
Minimum Crew: Sixteen
Optimal Crew: Twenty

Addendum VIII: Weapons

Heavy: Forward Facing AntiShip Weapons

NC: Titan Torpedo - 50000 Damage per unit/1 unit per clip/120 second reload/3000 m range/300 m/s speed
TR: Shiva AutoCannon - 1000 Damage per unit/60 units per clip at 0.25 RoF/120 second reload/1500 m range/1500 m/s speed
VS: Siege Beam - 45 Damage per unit/1000 units per clip at 0.01 RoF(continuous laser)/120 second reload/2000 m range/10000 m/s speed

Medium: Gunner Turrets with limited arcs (all have at least 180 degrees of horizontal arc), primarily for anti flanker defense.

NC: Coil Pulse Cannon - 2500 Damage per unit/10 units per clip at 2.00 RoF/10 second reload/1500 m range/1500 m/s speed
TR: Pharaoh AutoCannon - 400 Damage per unit/50 units per clip at 0.10 RoF/10 second reload/1000 m range/1500 m/s speed
VS: Ancient Defender - 15 Damage per unit/1000 units per clip at 0.01 RoF/10 second reload/1250 m range/10000 m/s speed

Light: AA weapons designed to take out enemy aircraft trying to infiltrate and or directly attack the AC.

NC/TR/VS: Flak Weapons, in the style of the Skyguard. These have excellent coverage, but relatively small down angle arcs.

[Kirotan]

It's basically a Titan that we can move around and play with from BF2142. It's a good idea if implemented properly. It definitely cannot be a farming machine like you said.

Btw what's up with "Chainfall original" in your post? Did you secure the movie rights already!? We haven't seen the script or talked to the investors yet! If this gets out before we're ready we are sunk before filming starts! EVERYBODY PANIC! :)

[CutterJohn]

So an indestructible AMS in the sky raining down troops and MAXs on top of a base, that the other team is powerless to destroy unless they bring their own outfit cruiser.

Its that immune bit that bugs me. I don't care if outfits have some toy, but its gotta be vulnerable to the enemy.

For example, make normal weapons damage it fine, but it has enough hitpoints to spend half an hour in the field or so before the damage becomes critical. Then it zooms back to base for several hours to repair. other cruisers could fight over these.

But I'd just prefer it to be a capturable base that can be moved around.

[Rbstr]

I fucking love airships. They just scream adventure.

But I don't care for this idea. Seems like it just creates a parallel fight with no bearing on anything else. Unless the scale of the world is much larger I don't see much point to that kind of thing.

[Baneblade]

It's basically a Titan that we can move around and play with from BF2142. It's a good idea if implemented properly. It definitely cannot be a farming machine like you said.

Indeed, the idea is to add naval and strategic combat without adversely affecting the ground game.

Btw what's up with "Chainfall original" in your post? Did you secure the movie rights already!? We haven't seen the script or talked to the investors yet! If this gets out before we're ready we are sunk before filming starts! EVERYBODY PANIC! :)

Chainfall is my name on the OF and I've had this idea in one form or another for 7 and a half years.

So an indestructible AMS in the sky raining down troops and MAXs on top of a base, that the other team is powerless to destroy unless they bring their own outfit cruiser.

Assuming that is even possible, it could happen. But I often add in a Deployment clause to the idea:

The airship has to enter a deployed mode for troops to deploy to the ground. This would force airships to be outside of an SOI to deploy, alleviating the concerns about invincible AMSes raining down ScatterMAXes.

Its that immune bit that bugs me. I don't care if outfits have some toy, but its gotta be vulnerable to the enemy.

If the airship has to worry about what is happening on the ground, the airship in turn MUST be able to directly participate in the ground game. I believe that is a bad idea and can only lead to the BFR Effect. Just like a Carrier in the Gulf is not going to really impact the day to day combat of Kabul, these airships should not have significant impact on the theatre of war on the ground. Can they augment one side's front? Sure. But only for the outfit that owns it, the rest of the empire is still spawning in AMSes.

For example, make normal weapons damage it fine, but it has enough hitpoints to spend half an hour in the field or so before the damage becomes critical. Then it zooms back to base for several hours to repair. other cruisers could fight over these.

There is no 'zooming', under full steam a surging Rexo can keep pace with an airship (exaggeration, but they wont be fast). If ground effects can force an airship to leave a theatre of engagement in a mere half hour, it will be incredibly easy for them to be killed with Mags or anything else in significant numbers. But the airship MUST be able to engage them in turn. So no go on any of that.

But I'd just prefer it to be a capturable base that can be moved around.

That is possible, but it is more fun if they are important and not just a distraction.

I fucking love airships. They just scream adventure.

Amen brosef.

But I don't care for this idea. Seems like it just creates a parallel fight with no bearing on anything else. Unless the scale of the world is much larger I don't see much point to that kind of thing.

So why be against it? It doesn't hurt you to support it and it would add a lot of fun to a significant portion of the potential playebase.

[Lonehunter]

I'm thinking the closest thing to naval warfare we need is just big vehicles. I was piloting a Gunship other night and took on another one. I tried ramming it since we had max shields and armor and hadn't see any of their shields flicker. But I ended up cutting one of their corner turns and got next to them so the ground pounders could even lay into them. I had never played any large ship to ship combat like that before.
It was pretty damn awesome.

[DviddLeff]

I'll post my concept designs for them from the upgrade project when I finish work, but does anyone have the concept art slickcoder made years ago?

[Baneblade]

I'm thinking the closest thing to naval warfare we need is just big vehicles. I was piloting a Gunship other night and took on another one. I tried ramming it since we had max shields and armor and hadn't see any of their shields flicker. But I ended up cutting one of their corner turns and got next to them so the ground pounders could even lay into them. I had never played any large ship to ship combat like that before.
It was pretty damn awesome.

Yes, that is awesome, but Gunships added a very unbalanced aspect of the game when they were introduced forcing the ground game to adapt to them and further unbalancing the air to ground game.

These would largely be unaffected by what happens on the ground, except in a few scenarios dealing with elevation.

[Rbstr]

So why be against it? It doesn't hurt you to support it and it would add a lot of fun to a significant portion of the potential playebase.

I should amend that. A parallel fight that does nothing but drain valuable resources from the fights that matter on the ground and in the air.

I see one of two things happening:
It's so cheap on outfit points that everyone has one and it completely loses any cool factor.
It's so expensive you have to be part of a monster outfit. Then it just becomes an sort of invincible spawn point that does little but run away from other cruisers so they don't get lost.

I guess my primary thing is that, if the scaling of the world remains the same, there's none of the stuff that makes Airships cool. It's something that needs a ginormous world with bleh terrestrial travel and no practical long distance jet aircraft for it to function properly IMO. The skies have to be big enough that the things aren't everywhere.

[DviddLeff]

Here is my take on the concept (can be found in my New Vehicles (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/new-vehicles) page, at the bottom).

They would be used as respawn points, and would have many weapon systems which the users can tailor to their needs. Say for example the user wants to sit back and act as a safe base behind friendly lines then they could equip it with artillery or shields, while an air base commander might want to equip mainly AA weaponry and ensure air dominance during an offensive.

They would have rooms and corridors inside, including vital systems that the enemy can knock out such as generators, control console, etc. The enemy can also capture and commandeer super heavy vehicles, if they can kill the crew and get past the defences to capture the control console. However, they must capture it quickly, otherwise the crew can set off a self destruct timer from the vehicles main console. The control console can also be used by platoon commanders to direct troops, just like base CCs and CAMSs detailed in the Command Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/command-overhaul).

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955194444/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base.jpg?height=187&width=400
https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955246515/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base%20Rear.jpg?height=160&width=320
https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955271036/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base%20Underside.jpg?height=188&width=320

They could also simply be destroyed either by pouring enough fire into it from outside, or sending troops inside to destroy the generators and rendering the vehicle inactive (destroying the generator will cause it to crash and unless it is hovering low it will be destroyed on impact). If the vehicle survives the impact damage it could be used as a base still, but until both generators are back on line it would not be able to fly again.

The vehicle would also crash if it ran out of NTUs, and would have to be filled up periodically, either by travelling to a warp gate or by the players bringing NTUs in another manner (see NTU Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/ntu-overhaul)).

These would be a large investment in outfit credits (say 10,000 credits), and gaining one would not be a nightly occurrence for even large outfits, it might take days of fighting to afford one (see Outfit Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/outfit-overhaul) for details on outfit credits). However, they can be parked and locked up, acting as a stationary base for the faction to defend. These would be purchased from a factions Sanctuary, through a new, extremely large vehicle pad.

Outfit Cruiser (~11 Players)

Air Vehicle bay (with tech plant benefit)
Spawn Point
2x Generators
Equipment Terminals
Command Console
6 Medium Hard points
4 Large Hard points
Landing bay
Matrix Panel
Hot Drop Tubes


(See the Vehicle Hard Point System (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/vehicle-hardpoint-system) for hard point options)

In the images above the cruiser has been outfitted by its VS owners with 4 Heavy Rail Beams in its Heavy Hard Points to strike ground armour and 6 20mm Recoilless Cannons for AA defence.

[brinkdadrink]

I think giant air ships would be great but so were the thought of giant robots. If implemented right could change the tides of war but still be balanced.

My thoughts to add would be
- 2 man crew just to move it. It can hover in place without anyone but needs atleast 2 guys to actually move (one pilot and one spotter i guess at specific stations)
- put a timer on it. Dont just make it a lot of outfit points but also make it so you can only get 1 per month or 2 months. If that was the case then you can have them be the beast of the sky because if you lose it you lose it for a long time.
- I like the look dvidd
- Add a giant air cannon to bases so if you want to park overtop of a base without dieing quickly, you need to take that out first (make it slow fire, long range, only shoot upwards, no splash damage so hard to hit small aircraft such as mos and reaver)
- Make mandatory for all large hard ports to be the same. So if you choose to come in against ground then all the guns are ground so there is a weakness but will still take a lot to kill.

Again think would be a great idea but needs to be perfected before throwing it in like the BFR's

[Baneblade]

I should amend that. A parallel fight that does nothing but drain valuable resources from the fights that matter on the ground and in the air.

I wouldn't say it does nothing to the ground fight, just not directly. It could act as an air base in a certain configuration, but have less weapons to defend itself, that sort of thing. Or it could have an adverse effect on enemies within its own SOI.

It's so cheap on outfit points that everyone has one and it completely loses any cool factor.

That would be a little annoying, sure.

It's so expensive you have to be part of a monster outfit. Then it just becomes an sort of invincible spawn point that does little but run away from other cruisers so they don't get lost.

And that is also a fair concern. One variation of the idea called for more than one class of air cruiser, such as Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, and Battlecruiser. That would allow smaller outfits to more easily obtain smaller air cruisers, but keep the biggest ones for the more heavy investors.

Larger Air Cruisers could have longer universal timers, such as 14 days per hull class:

Frigate starts a 14 day timer when it blows up
Destroyer starts a 28 day timer
Cruiser starts a 42 day timer
Battlecruiser starts a 56 day timer

And the timers being universal would be for all air cruisers. So upclassing would be a serious consideration and make you a much more interesting target.

I guess my primary thing is that, if the scaling of the world remains the same, there's none of the stuff that makes Airships cool. It's something that needs a ginormous world with bleh terrestrial travel and no practical long distance jet aircraft for it to function properly IMO. The skies have to be big enough that the things aren't everywhere.

I also think PSN's world should be bigger, and contiguous. Even without ACs being implemented.

[Baneblade]

I think giant air ships would be great but so were the thought of giant robots. If implemented right could change the tides of war but still be balanced.

The obvious problem with giant robots was that they were in the ground game, airships wouldn't necessarily be in the ground game.

My thoughts to add would be
- 2 man crew just to move it. It can hover in place without anyone but needs atleast 2 guys to actually move (one pilot and one spotter i guess at specific stations)

I haven't posted it up yet, but I had bridge crew assignments set up to take care of keeping it from being too easy to control. Commander to unlock the rest of the bridge, Helmsman to Steer, Engineer to manage damage control and fine tune energy output, Tactical to coordinate gunnery fire and to control the Heavy weapons (lock on torpedo style antiship weapons), and the rest of the crew would be gunning, or doing repairs, or even just hanging out in the observation lounge overlooking the ground battle.

- put a timer on it. Dont just make it a lot of outfit points but also make it so you can only get 1 per month or 2 months. If that was the case then you can have them be the beast of the sky because if you lose it you lose it for a long time.

Absolutely, the only way to avoid the timer would be to voluntarily return your current airship to the empire for an upgrade.

- Add a giant air cannon to bases so if you want to park overtop of a base without dieing quickly, you need to take that out first (make it slow fire, long range, only shoot upwards, no splash damage so hard to hit small aircraft such as mos and reaver)

I have a better idea than starting a balance war between air cruisers and the ground game. Allow infiltration, but only from actual infiltrators. Not just mossie hotdroppers. Only a cloaked Phantasm would get through the defense shield (assuming there is one). Mere hotdroppers would just be vaporized by the shield.

- Make mandatory for all large hard ports to be the same. So if you choose to come in against ground then all the guns are ground so there is a weakness but will still take a lot to kill.

None of the weapons are intended to engage a ground target.

Again think would be a great idea but needs to be perfected before throwing it in like the BFR's

Absolutely, and I will be adding more Addendums as the polish gets applied.

[Baneblade]

Here is my take on the concept (can be found in my New Vehicles (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/new-vehicles) page, at the bottom).

They would be used as respawn points, and would have many weapon systems which the users can tailor to their needs. Say for example the user wants to sit back and act as a safe base behind friendly lines then they could equip it with artillery or shields, while an air base commander might want to equip mainly AA weaponry and ensure air dominance during an offensive.

They would have rooms and corridors inside, including vital systems that the enemy can knock out such as generators, control console, etc. The enemy can also capture and commandeer super heavy vehicles, if they can kill the crew and get past the defences to capture the control console. However, they must capture it quickly, otherwise the crew can set off a self destruct timer from the vehicles main console. The control console can also be used by platoon commanders to direct troops, just like base CCs and CAMSs detailed in the Command Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/command-overhaul).

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955194444/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base.jpg?height=187&width=400
https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955246515/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base%20Rear.jpg?height=160&width=320
https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1276955271036/phase-3/new-vehicles/Air%20Base%20Underside.jpg?height=188&width=320

They could also simply be destroyed either by pouring enough fire into it from outside, or sending troops inside to destroy the generators and rendering the vehicle inactive (destroying the generator will cause it to crash and unless it is hovering low it will be destroyed on impact). If the vehicle survives the impact damage it could be used as a base still, but until both generators are back on line it would not be able to fly again.

The vehicle would also crash if it ran out of NTUs, and would have to be filled up periodically, either by travelling to a warp gate or by the players bringing NTUs in another manner (see NTU Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/ntu-overhaul)).

These would be a large investment in outfit credits (say 10,000 credits), and gaining one would not be a nightly occurrence for even large outfits, it might take days of fighting to afford one (see Outfit Overhaul (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/outfit-overhaul) for details on outfit credits). However, they can be parked and locked up, acting as a stationary base for the faction to defend. These would be purchased from a factions Sanctuary, through a new, extremely large vehicle pad.

Outfit Cruiser (~11 Players)

Air Vehicle bay (with tech plant benefit)
Spawn Point
2x Generators
Equipment Terminals
Command Console
6 Medium Hard points
4 Large Hard points
Landing bay
Matrix Panel
Hot Drop Tubes


(See the Vehicle Hard Point System (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/vehicle-hardpoint-system) for hard point options)

In the images above the cruiser has been outfitted by its VS owners with 4 Heavy Rail Beams in its Heavy Hard Points to strike ground armour and 6 20mm Recoilless Cannons for AA defence.

That looks more like the Forward Command Base idea I had to replace AMSes.

This is more the Air Cruiser speed:

(Not necessarily to scale)

http://donotargue.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Freespace2_1.jpg

[Tikuto]

(Not necessarily to scale)

http://donotargue.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Freespace2_1.jpg

Oooo. That hit the spot. :bouncy:

[Hamma]

:lol:

Some really interesting ideas in this thread. The above concept reminds me of that bigass ship in avatar.

[Tikuto]

Air Cruisers are a sweet idea. I think this is the thing that inspired the creation of the Galaxy Gunship.

With super power comes super control. Like the BFRs that are still ineffectively controlled, they are super-powers that are uncontrolled according to the fairness (and balance) of what PlanetSide is ideally to be.

An Air or even Orbital Cruiser like this needs control. Balance and Control equals to fair competitive action-shooter multi-player gaming like it always does, but when you add a super-power to the fair mix it becomes an uncontrolled mess. Controlling this mess scales it to fair again...

Because the player-base is an uncontrollable solution. There has to be some game system control that applies to all Empires for all Empires, and the control would be the Outfit that achieves the super-weapon availabiltiy and activation first.

An Outfit can be in possession of one though the whole game controls how it's fair-played - not not several outfits with shitloads of super-weapons. Because of the size of the cruiser may mean pre-requisite online population of an Outfit or something, and maybe other things like you Empire is near-defeat and so an Air Cruiser (end-game boss) comes to scale the war and reclaim half of Auraxis for its lifetime/duration. Once everything is checked, the rarity of an Air Cruiser would appear and an Outfit could be responsible. Outfit's taking command of an Imperial Cruiser stimulates competition between friendly Outfits, and competitive leadership means for greater leadership.

Contribution (SUGGESTION):

Imperial Cruisers (as I'd like to name them) could float in the air, go in and out of orbit and land on the ocean. The ultimate super-power of Auraxis domination that ultimately insists the war!
They would be end-game bosses controlled by selected Outfits and their players. When an Empire summons an Imperial Cruiser they can reclaim the planet unless destroyed.
They would have multiple huge hitboxes like shooting a vehicle as its whole. Each hitbox is a big gunner location.
Biggest weakness: Orbital Strikes
Counter weakness: Ascend into orbit and seize enemy Orbital Stations.

Pre-requisites:
Sufficient active players on the server-World.
Sufficient amount of players online within an outfit.
You Empire is in peril, near-defeat and requires a climatic resolution: "Summon the Imperial Cruiser!"
Recharge timer has completed since last Imperial Cruiser appearance
_

Empire refuses to allow your Outfit's Imperial Cruiser to enter continents within enemy Orbital Station view.





edit: If Cruiser such as awesome as this were to be included into PlanetSide, why not bring back BFRs to scale their terror?

[Grimster]

That bigass ship in Avatar was really awesome. :)

I really loved it. I don't know why but it kind of reminded me of Planetside for some odd reason. Might be the shape of the hull or something.

[Traak]

I think Cameron intentionally made the ship look like a massive, flying tick. That's all it reminded me of.

[Tikuto]

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsrlQb-5TL_V9AZ2cUQCGdqBqyYjFDXckAvPV3cJNb79AYnRpPbg&t=1

http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_2010_12_09__04_00_25/ACruiser_rolling.jpeg89c1175d-6fed-4b26-9965-6efdfa1e369fLarger.jpg

[Firefly]

If this CONSUMES outfit points, you have an easy way to control it.

[Baneblade]

If this CONSUMES outfit points, you have an easy way to control it.

That is the intention, yes.

[Canaris]

Is anyone else getting the feeling of a "flying BFR overbalance on crack" while looking at the concept of the airship.

It's an Alpha Class weapons system and excuse me but after what went on with BFR's Planetside doesn't need another AC.

I really like the concept of a massive multi user ship but on the forum there is a discussion already about the complete over balance of a Galaxy Gunship, from the look of some of the suggestions you want to kick that up a notch?
With most of the people who posting here calling for the GG to be scrapped or down graded.

This airship idea was also floated back in 2002 or 2003 same as here it was warmly received even by the Dev's at the time but ultimately it was dropped by the wayside as impractical and over balanced.

This is the problem I see a lot and not just here but on almost every gaming site talking about big concepts for a game, they have the idea but don't take the time to think about the long term effects it would have on the game.

"How will this fit into the game practically?"
"What effect will it cause to the game population, Empire population, outfit populations?"
"Is it a good idea or only a good concept?"
"How will it balance out?"

In closing as a concept I love it always did since I saw it all those years ago but being a bit more mature now I can objectively look at it and say (Without knowing whats in PS-N of course) I can say no on this scale this won't work.

my three fiddy.

[DviddLeff]

Well... how could it work?

As a concept it works pretty well, especially when you consider it has been proved to work by BF2142 which had titan game mode which is basically an outfit cruiser.

[Azellon]

Hmm. The thing going through my head is a Protoss voice saying "Carrier has arrived".

So building on that...make it largely incapable of defending itself. It has a shield that slowly recharges at all times, even when under fire. The key here is "slowly"; it's not going to be getting better if it stays under heavy fire, it can't land, and glue guns don't work on it. You have to get it out of battle and let the shield recharge.

The thing is, this thing has to be defended. It possesses the means to its defense but has no weapons of its own. It is a flying base, essentially. It can spawn vehicles and players to control said vehicles. It can't fit anyone who spawns on it in anything larger than a Pilot's suit.

You have two types of vehicles that this thing spawns:

A Bomber, like the Liberator, but there's only the pilot and it has no guns, just bombs.

A Wasp or something similar designed to take control of the skies.

Those vehicles are incapable of landing at normal base facilities or on the ground, they rely entirely on the carrier. They could even have a maximum "Control Range" after which they start to lose effectiveness and eventually crash.

This would require a large group of teamwork-oriented people to even be capable of pulling it off.

[Baneblade]

Is anyone else getting the feeling of a "flying BFR overbalance on crack" while looking at the concept of the airship.

You are missing the most critical part of the idea:

These are all intentionally designed to avoid direct interaction with the ground game. ACs can obviously support a battle (on the individual outfit level), but will not be parked over a base farming doors.

I really like the concept of a massive multi user ship but on the forum there is a discussion already about the complete over balance of a Galaxy Gunship, from the look of some of the suggestions you want to kick that up a notch?
With most of the people who posting here calling for the GG to be scrapped or down graded.

The GG is exactly the opposite of what this idea is about. This idea is about outfit oriented warfare, naval combat, and more than just another farming vehicle.

This airship idea was also floated back in 2002 or 2003 same as here it was warmly received even by the Dev's at the time but ultimately it was dropped by the wayside as impractical and over balanced.

It was dropped by the wayside because SOE decided to drop the dev team by the wayside and put in 'babysitter' devs.

This is the problem I see a lot and not just here but on almost every gaming site talking about big concepts for a game, they have the idea but don't take the time to think about the long term effects it would have on the game.

That statement would be a huge insult to me if I knew it was not made out of sheer ignorance.

"How will this fit into the game practically?"

Covered.

"What effect will it cause to the game population, Empire population, outfit populations?"

Other than all of those being significantly higher than without them?

"Is it a good idea or only a good concept?"
"How will it balance out?"

Can you be a bit more specific?

In closing as a concept I love it always did since I saw it all those years ago but being a bit more mature now I can objectively look at it and say (Without knowing whats in PS-N of course) I can say no on this scale this won't work.

It would absolutely work if implemented my way and not the BFR, GG, or traditional SOE way.

Hmm. The thing going through my head is a Protoss voice saying "Carrier has arrived".

Or Homeworld 2's: 'Battlecruiser Complete.'

So building on that...make it largely incapable of defending itself. It has a shield that slowly recharges at all times, even when under fire. The key here is "slowly"; it's not going to be getting better if it stays under heavy fire, it can't land, and glue guns don't work on it. You have to get it out of battle and let the shield recharge.


The only weapons it has in this idea are to fight other air cruisers and aircraft that get too close. The secondary method of taking these out will no doubt be infiltrator (or just hotdropper) sabotage. The shield in the original idea consumed NTU, which I still consider to be a viable idea. ACs needing a fuel source to stay viable makes sense to me.

The thing is, this thing has to be defended. It possesses the means to its defense but has no weapons of its own.

So how do you propose to ever actually take one out?

It is a flying base, essentially. It can spawn vehicles and players to control said vehicles. It can't fit anyone who spawns on it in anything larger than a Pilot's suit.

I avoided vehicle spawning in this idea intentionally. The only thing worse than an unkillable airship farming Seth, is an unkillable airship spewing out Reavers. I think the outfit spawn room is perfect. It doesn't help the rest of the empire directly, but it lets that outfit control their primary (or backup) spawn point. Outfit locked AMSes are the oldest idea in PS entirely oriented on support. But SOE unequivocally stated AMSes will always be empire scale logistics.

This would require a large group of teamwork-oriented people to even be capable of pulling it off.

The air cruiser idea I put forward already demands a crew to operate.

[Baneblade]

I had to delete some of Addendum VI due to the 10000 character limit. I wonder if there is a way to change that?

[Azellon]

The only weapons it has in this idea are to fight other air cruisers and aircraft that get too close. The secondary method of taking these out will no doubt be infiltrator (or just hotdropper) sabotage. The shield in the original idea consumed NTU, which I still consider to be a viable idea. ACs needing a fuel source to stay viable makes sense to me.

I dislike the idea of it having weapons of its own at all, really. This thing should be less defensible than a base, since it has a great advantage on a base: You can't reach it by walking up to it.



So how do you propose to ever actually take one out?
Your own idea of making the shield cost NTU was a decent idea. Maybe it needs to return to a warpgate every so often in order to refuel. Additionally, you could give it a number of generators (much like we have in bases right now) that could provide this shielding or provide power for the other facilities such as the spawn rooms and vehicle pads that I proposed. Take out a generator, the carrier loses that capability. This could include Engines as well so that the carrier can't move. These generators CAN be repaired by a glue gun or will repair themselves if the ship has NTU. But you have to get folks into the ship to take it out.




I avoided vehicle spawning in this idea intentionally. The only thing worse than an unkillable airship farming Seth, is an unkillable airship spewing out Reavers. I think the outfit spawn room is perfect. It doesn't help the rest of the empire directly, but it lets that outfit control their primary (or backup) spawn point. Outfit locked AMSes are the oldest idea in PS entirely oriented on support. But SOE unequivocally stated AMSes will always be empire scale logistics.

That's why I suggested making them capable of spawning only two types of ships, neither of which resemble the Reaver. Hell, you could even make it so pilots simply can't ditch out of these aircraft (in addition to being stuck in a Pilot's suit) so that they are stuck in the air. If you limit the amount of smaller craft these things can launch and put a respawn timer on them like other vehicles have, combined with the generator soft spots and NTU-driven shield, it would be far from "unkillable".



The air cruiser idea I put forward already demands a crew to operate.

The ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[Tikuto]

Actually... Yeah a cruiser that acts like a facility... but in the sky! :huh:. Defending it would be like mounting a wall turret.

[Baneblade]

I dislike the idea of it having weapons of its own at all, really. This thing should be less defensible than a base, since it has a great advantage on a base: You can't reach it by walking up to it.

So when two air cruisers are near each other they are supposed to ram each other to death? No outfit would buy any cruiser if it was just a flying base with twice the vulnerabilities and thirty times the difficulty in obtaining and maintaining. No, the weapons are critical to making them not fucking boring. And the weapons are next to useless against anything other than other air cruisers.

Your own idea of making the shield cost NTU was a decent idea. Maybe it needs to return to a warpgate every so often in order to refuel. Additionally, you could give it a number of generators (much like we have in bases right now) that could provide this shielding or provide power for the other facilities such as the spawn rooms and vehicle pads that I proposed. Take out a generator, the carrier loses that capability. This could include Engines as well so that the carrier can't move. These generators CAN be repaired by a glue gun or will repair themselves if the ship has NTU. But you have to get folks into the ship to take it out.

This idea is already a part of it, but I ran out of room to add it into the OP. Each major function has a subsystem and a backup that can be taken offline. The primary being offline makes the backup vulnerable to sabotage (but they can't be taken out simultaneously) and the system only runs at 50% efficienct off the backup.

That's why I suggested making them capable of spawning only two types of ships, neither of which resemble the Reaver. Hell, you could even make it so pilots simply can't ditch out of these aircraft (in addition to being stuck in a Pilot's suit) so that they are stuck in the air. If you limit the amount of smaller craft these things can launch and put a respawn timer on them like other vehicles have, combined with the generator soft spots and NTU-driven shield, it would be far from "unkillable".

I toyed with the idea you are pushing and the closest I came to it is flight decks or hangar bays that people can land and service aircraft in. I want to stay away from vehicle spawning of any kind on Air Cruisers. Logistics should be more than just the inconvenience of refueling NTU.

There is nothing that says you can't bind yourself to a DC or a TP and spawn a vehicle there and simply fly it to the Air Cruiser.

Frigate class: two air pads that can repair and rearm outfit aircraft.

Destroyer class: six air pads

Cruiser class: Hangar bay large enough for two Galaxies

Battlecruiser: Through Deck Hangar large enough for a large outfit to stage an air raid from (four or so Galaxies in size)

But all of those vehicles must be spawned off the air ship, which makes taking heavy air losses a significant problem for a Cruiser.

[Azellon]

So when two air cruisers are near each other they are supposed to ram each other to death? No outfit would buy any cruiser if it was just a flying base with twice the vulnerabilities and thirty times the difficulty in obtaining and maintaining. No, the weapons are critical to making them not fucking boring. And the weapons are next to useless against anything other than other air cruisers.

I see your point with the weapons. Tikuto brought up turrets and I like that idea a lot. Instead of chainguns, make them flak turrets. That eliminates a lot of the vulnerability problems, if you've got folks manning the turrets. If you don't have the crew for it, you probably shouldn't be flying it.

Make piloting one a function of CR, it's something you do using the map, point and click. Piloting one won't be an act of sitting in the seat and moving it from place to place, it would largely be automated, allowing you to do other things...such as man a turret or whatever else you might like. Command would also be something you could give permissions for.

Thinking of it less in terms of "this is a personal vehicle you fly that has these other features" like a Galaxy or GG, and more in terms of "this is a very large ship with a bridge and a crew" like a naval vessel. As the commander you don't necessarily take the wheel, you issue orders and the orders are obeyed.

In essence, this avoids the issue that it's boring by making it something you can do when you have a minute between doing the other things you're doing.

[Baneblade]

I covered all of that, but I need more room to get more detailed about each 'bridge' function. Gunners are already critical, as only the Primary Weapons are directly controlled by the Tactical Officer, who also coordinates the gunners incidentally since gunners tend to have target ADHD (must shoot everything) and OCD (must try to finish off that guy that is dancing in and out of my weapon range!).

The Commander is not chair bound, in fact his functions are mostly administrative. His direct role in the operation of the AC is that he can manage the Crew and replace one of them in an emergency (minus the Abilities unless he has the cert for that role). But you need four people to run the command and control efficiently. The gunners, damage controllman, and security forces are also critical to an AC that the enemy is actively trying to disable/destroy. A Frigate might be fully capable with only eight players, but a Battlecruiser may need as many as 20.

One alternative to the Bridge Crew I went over already would be to increase the cert commitment of being the Commander, but also being able to do all of the bridge functions yourself... sort of an EvE style command and control. Commander would navigate the AC either manually or with the autopilot, but it will be a busy pair of shoes during crunch time. So I think it might still be better to allow Commanders to do all of the basics, but keep the Advanced Abilities for other Crew. Remember, one very important thing about ACs is redundancy, including at the Crew level. If your Commander goes LD in the middle of a critical fight, what can you do to solve the situation?

[Canaris]

Sorry Sobe didn't make the distinction clear between your idea and other people asking for it to be loaded down with weapon systems, that's who my post was aimed at.

wrote it at early O'clock without enough caffine in my system ;)

[Baneblade]

No worries, that makes more sense to me than the people who read the title than assume they already know what the idea actually is and post about stuff that is already covered in the OP.

[DviddLeff]

Yeah, my version of the cruiser is very similar, but different in that I disagree with having the empire unable to spawn in it (if the owners want them to that is) and being used to target none cruiser targets.

If the outfit wants to use the cruiser as on offensive or defensive weapons platform they should be able to, buts its a high risk use and a big loss of outfit credits if and when they lose the thing.

I do like the idea of different sized cruisers... everything from the next step up from galaxies to mobile bases; looking at merging it with the navy concepts people threw about.

[Azellon]

Or assuming that a similar idea is identical because it incorporates some of the same concepts.

I realize many of the things I said were covered in your OP. I also don't like your original idea, but I see potential there for something better than what you wrote. That's what folks do when they like parts of an idea but not the whole thing: they keep the stuff they like and discard the stuff they don't.

People on this board are so easily upset.

[Baneblade]

You want flying bases, I want airships aka naval style warfare. You can't have that with what you want.

[DviddLeff]

Can do; cruisers are the warships, carriers are the mobile bases.

I am fleshing out the naval aspect on my site, all very work in progress at the moment. For example I am stripping the air pads off the model I posted to have that as the cruiser. The carrier will be similar but have a couple of dropship pads on it, and less guns.

I'll make some models of the different ships, but atm I am getting to grips with sketchup rendering plug ins to make my models look better.

[Azellon]

Can do; cruisers are the warships, carriers are the mobile bases.

This.

Ever seen an aircraft carrier? Those things aren't ships, they're floating cities. Somehow, some way, they share the water with smaller vessels of all stripes, from tiny speedboats to massive gunships (in this analogy, a mosquito or reaver is a speedboat and your cruisers are the massive gunships).

This adds dimensions to the combat in the game, which is a good thing. Look at Tribes as an example. Why is it still talked about? Why do people still play it? Because it's not a 2D shooter. You don't just run around on the ground and shoot people unless you want to die a horrible death. You fly. You ski. You move fast and you rarely touch the ground. It's the extra dimension that makes the game stand out.

This is expanding the dimension you're proposing without losing what makes PS a great game.

[Baneblade]

Originally I had intended on adding Carriers to this idea, but there are a ton of problems associated with doing so. Like how do you make them useful without making them overpowered. A Battlecruiser without the ability to shoot down isn't overpowered in the ground game. But a flying base servicing endless air farmers would be hugely detrimental to the ground game. How are you going to make the Carrier able to handle the airship vs airship game without making it OP vs the ground game? It doesn't seem like it will actually be possible, unless you limit Carrier spawns to aircraft that can't hover or efficiently deliver ordinance to the ground. But that just makes those aircraft easy prey for traditional aircraft.

HINT: Being able to go slower than someone else makes it that much easier to stay in their blind spot.

[Baneblade]

In short, a Carrier will add far too much in the way of balance issues and will ruin the air cruiser concept as a whole. Which is why I left them out. It wasn't because I didn't want them in, that is for certain.

[Azellon]

How are you going to make the Carrier able to handle the airship vs airship game without making it OP vs the ground game?

As I said before, guns that point to the side and up. Give them a lower flight ceiling than other aircraft. Additionally, in the airship vs airship game this thing ideally won't be going toe to toe with a gunship because they're different classes of ships. A gunship may in fact be partially designed to take out one of these carriers, which is part of the elusive balance you're talking about. These things are best when they're being actively defended. Flying one solo is asking to get shot down. You won't get taken out by a small force, but you will get taken out if someone is putting a good deal of effort into it...much like a base. Hell, you could even make them impossible to destroy, instead making it so they can be captured like a base. Put one on each continent or only on select continents.

It doesn't seem like it will actually be possible, unless you limit Carrier spawns to aircraft that can't hover or efficiently deliver ordinance to the ground. But that just makes those aircraft easy prey for traditional aircraft.

So give the aircraft all the perks of normal aircraft, but make them more specialized. The bomber is a pure bomber and yes, it would be easy prey for a traditional aircraft. That's the point, to provide some balance. The AA is pure AA and would probably be pretty easy prey for ground-based AA. These two aircraft complement each other and should be used in tandem. You already have these roles in PS, I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that this won't translate to PS:N just as well.

[Baneblade]

As I said before, guns that point to the side and up. Give them a lower flight ceiling than other aircraft.

Okay, how does a Carrier destroy say a Battlecruiser? Just bombers? That seems rather easy to counter. And Carriers by definition won't be anywhere near the actual front of the theatre of war, making them largely irrelevant until they do show up and dead when that happens. I still think you are going for the overpowered angle, while my ideas cover 'Carriers' without actually making Carriers.

It is critical that air cruisers need interaction to maintain, thus any kind of permanent AC is untenable. Not to mention the pointlessness of adding an AC that is only good as a flying base that can't get close enough to be useful in the first place.

Additionally, in the airship vs airship game this thing ideally won't be going toe to toe with a gunship because they're different classes of ships.

Which in PS is not really viable since the maps are really not that large. Unless you want the Carriers to be 'orbiting' the continents all of the time. Personally I can't imagine why any outfit would choose the 'Carrier' over the Battlecruiser. Direct combat is the name of the game in PS.

A gunship may in fact be partially designed to take out one of these carriers, which is part of the elusive balance you're talking about.

That is the primary purpose of all of the ACs, to kill other ACs, acting as an outfit base/spawn point is secondary.

These things are best when they're being actively defended.

As it should be.

Flying one solo is asking to get shot down.

As it should be. Although I can already see the potential for cloaked Frigates for solo and small squad outfits.

You won't get taken out by a small force, but you will get taken out if someone is putting a good deal of effort into it...much like a base.

Actually, the entire idea is based around the idea that a small group of infiltrators could board an AC and sabotage it, vastly decreasing its performance profile. The only thing a Carrier will do is die or flip from constant 'spec ops' efforts.

Hell, you could even make them impossible to destroy, instead making it so they can be captured like a base. Put one on each continent or only on select continents.

Sod that. The entire point is that these are naval outfit assets, not flying regurgitations of the ground game bases.

So give the aircraft all the perks of normal aircraft, but make them more specialized. The bomber is a pure bomber and yes, it would be easy prey for a traditional aircraft. That's the point, to provide some balance. The AA is pure AA and would probably be pretty easy prey for ground-based AA. These two aircraft complement each other and should be used in tandem. You already have these roles in PS, I'm not sure where you're getting the notion that this won't translate to PS:N just as well.

Except for one thing, how are the ground game aircraft going to deal with the Carrier's aircraft? How would the bombers take out another AC? How far behind the scenes do you expect a Carrier to hide while the crew gets bored silly waiting for someone to run from? How are you going to ensure the AA aircraft don't completely dominate the ground based aircraft?

The answer: You don't.

Carriers do not add anything significantly valuable to the AC concept at all. Besides that, any of the current proposed ACs could already have been expanded to have a full function flight deck, but I abandoned that notion intentionally due to ACs needing limitations in regards to the ground game. That last thing anyone wants is an invulnerable flying fortress raining air farmers on their siege on Forseral.

The Bottom Line: Giving ACs as conceptualized hangars and flight decks appropriate for their size is a perfect compromise between nothing at all and full fledged Carriers.

If you want to press the Carrier issue some more, come up with something truly remarkable. I've run it before again and again and I didn't abandon it so some upstart prick can lecture me about why his idea needs to be spooged all over my thread.

[DviddLeff]

Ok, stripped the vehicle spawns off my cruiser, and added more weapon hard points to it.

Playing with a renderer for sketchup:

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1300912815618/home/Naval%20Cruiser.png?height=300&width=400

[Azellon]

Damn, had I known you were actively hostile to anyone tampering with your crap I would've stayed out of the thread.

But it is just that: crap. Your idea alone is not worthwhile. Adding more to the idea would make it a wonderful concept. As it stands it's half-assed and worthless. If it doesn't interact with the ground game at all, it is a different game and belongs in a different game. If you want naval battles go play Battleship.

Outfit-only spawning? Cool story bro, way to miss the point of PS. The very reason why AMSes aren't capable of going outfit-only is so pricks like you don't make them outfit-only.

But have fun fapping to your own garbage.

[Baneblade]

Ok, stripped the vehicle spawns off my cruiser, and added more weapon hard points to it.

Playing with a renderer for sketchup:

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/_/rsrc/1300912815618/home/Naval%20Cruiser.png?height=300&width=400

Very nice, is it angular like that intentionally or is that more or less just a concept draft?

Damn, had I known you were actively hostile to anyone tampering with your crap I would've stayed out of the thread.

I'm actively hostile to people who repeat things incessantly.

But it is just that: crap. Your idea alone is not worthwhile.

You are not qualified to make that assertion.

Adding more to the idea would make it a wonderful concept.

I agree, I just don't agree with flying BFRs spitting out infantry farmers endlessly.

As it stands it's half-assed and worthless.

:rolleyes:

If it doesn't interact with the ground game at all, it is a different game and belongs in a different game.

It does interact with the ground game you lethargic twit. It just doesn't dominate it. But you go ahead and ramble on some more about how you want a flying killwhore factory.

If you want naval battles go play Battleship.

If you want infantry battles, go play Chess.

Outfit-only spawning? Cool story bro, way to miss the point of PS. The very reason why AMSes aren't capable of going outfit-only is so pricks like you don't make them outfit-only.

If my outfit spent the points it had to earn to get an AC, you will be damned sure I don't want the rank and file zergers on it. Friendly Fire sabotage ring any bells? Outfits are glorified chat rooms and floating titles. Period. This gives them something specific to aim for.

But have fun fapping to your own garbage.

I must have hit a nerve. Go blow your puerile word jizz elsewhere.

I gave you plenty of chances to get the fuck out civilly, but you had to go ahead and insist on shitting in this thread with your half baked and completely inconsiderate (as far as the game itself is concerned) ideas. So don't let your ego convince you to keep squatting when there are boots being rammed up your ass.

[DviddLeff]

Very nice, is it angular like that intentionally or is that more or less just a concept draft?

I'm a noob when it comes to modelling, I would prefer it smoother but I just cant be bothered to redo most of it to make it smoother. Sketchup has a function to smooth it out however which does an ok job, but the hard angles would still need me to go around and alter.

I am busy making a destroyer atm (step down from the cruiser), trying to use the Gal as a guide for the smaller ships (even though the destroyer will be 5 times bigger).

[Baneblade]

Take a look at the latest Addendums in the OP, I hope they will paint more of a picture of what I envision.

[DviddLeff]

Ok, I've had a brief skim through the changes, and I do like the depth you are adding to the system however I worry that you are making them too complex to manage.

Ill post detailed thoughts later, been busy working on my destroyer model all morning and need to take a break.

https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/naval-warfare-0-wip/Naval%20Destroyer.png

Obviously I used the Galaxy as my main reference point, just bulked it out significantly.

Crew of 10
Pilot
4 heavy weapons
5 medium weapons


Access point on the back so people can potentially hot drop onto the roof, drop onto the platform, hack their way inside and kill the crew. However there would be space inside for at least a squad to use the thing as transport.

[Traak]

I have a better idea than starting a balance war between air cruisers and the ground game. Allow infiltration, but only from actual infiltrators. Not just mossie hotdroppers. Only a cloaked Phantasm would get through the defense shield (assuming there is one). Mere hotdroppers would just be vaporized by the shield.


Haha, that won me, right there.

[Traak]

wrote it at early O'clock without enough caffine in my system ;)

This is completely off topic, but, the fact that coffee comes with caffeine is part of what makes coffee so attractive.

The fact that caffeine comes with coffee is also part of what makes caffeine attractive.

I think this is a great idea, as it adds even more to the game that isn't point, shoot, die, and stare mindlessly cross-eyed into space while drooling.

Some guys actually do like to think, plan, manage, and engage in teamwork.

[TRex]

The original OP topic struck me as 'caves' in the 'sky /naval' - a separate mini- fight that dosen't directly interfere with the on going ground fight but that in some way is useful to the overall game. I can't help but wonder why remove Core Combat and BFR's to replace them with something equally as distractive .

I'd much rather have something like this as an entire zone in its own right with pre-build game mechanics like the battle islands do now.

[Baneblade]

The original OP topic struck me as 'caves' in the 'sky /naval' - a separate mini- fight that dosen't directly interfere with the on going ground fight but that in some way is useful to the overall game.

I suppose it might have an effect like that, but air superiority as well as outfits having dedicated exclusive spawns will vastly impact the strategic ground game and have a lessor effect on the tactical ground game

I can't help but wonder why remove Core Combat and BFR's to replace them with something equally as distractive .

CC took people away from the fight entirely. BFRs dominated the fight entirely. Air Cruisers as proposed does neither.

I'd much rather have something like this as an entire zone in its own right with pre-build game mechanics like the battle islands do now.

Except that the entire concept behind that is one that players dont like generally. BIs were never popular in PS and CC less so. So it stands to reason that PSN players won't be different.

[Baneblade]

Now the PS2 is not just pocket hockey, I'd like to reignite the flames.

[Malorn]

For starters I think before something is added to the game it needs to have a clear purpose. "Because its cool" isn't sufficient purpose. BFRs were "cool" and they had a terrible impact on the game.

That said, I think this idea does have promise in a certain context, namely that of game pacing.

My take on these ships is basically that of BF2142's Titans. Even though in BF2142 the goal of titan combat was to take out the enemy titan they had some important functions that could be useful in PS2, namely the drop-pods and mobile spawn point w/ artillery and airpad support.

Main concern with these would be that I think combat would end up revolving around them due to the fact that you would have to destroy one to stop an assault. Either they'd be so powerful they dominated the front they were on, or so weak that they were too easily destroyed.

I think due to a lack of a clear role they'd end up having the same impact of BFRs - too powerful and impactful to the game and would lead to stagnating the fights and rendering other vehicles far less relevant.

It needs a well defined role. None comes to mind that wouldn't create a significant impact to the typical planetside gameplay.

[Elude]

If said cruisers would be destroyed, how exactly would it be done? Unless it's just a vanishing mesh followed by a spectacular fireball I cant imagine it blowing up into a million laggy pieces raining down onto players.

Also, aren't galaxies already mobile minuter bases now in PlanetSide 2? They have guns on them, allow you to spawn inside, and I'm sure you will be able to choose your loadout ect while spawning inside.

[Forsaken One]

Here is my idea on how it could work.

yes with a outfit only. BUT with the new so called "resources" it could be like a BF2142 Titan.

It would have a high powered shield. need to land at friendly bases to refuel NTU/fuel AND be destroyable.

it can have guns but they will be exposed outside the shield in order to shoot, so the enemy can hit those guns to disable them and cause the ship to have to repair them at a friendly base.

It will give a full feeling of winning over the enemy empire by destroying one of their outfits "Titans/airships"

they DID say outfits would have a use for resources and need to manage them smartly somewhere.

so they couldn't spam Titans as they could cost a buttload of resources. They would need to buy a new one if they let the old one die.

repairs and fuel could cost some resources as well but a lot less then buying a new one for a "upkeep"

A 2+ day timer to buying a new Titan after your old one gets kills would also be nice.

I actually think it would be so bad ass to use teamwork to kill something like that of the enemies. The feeling of "Hell yes! that's a big blow to that empires fighting power!" and the knowing that that outfit won't be able to use a Titan for a while. making that empire just that much weaker and helping to turn the battle in your favor by that much.

also the ability for enemies to board your Titan and try to take it out for the inside... mmmmmmmmmmmm

If said cruisers would be destroyed

BF2142's Titan exploded well and the slow dooming of the ship gave you a feeling like you really just did that.

[Malorn]

Right but I think that's part of the problem. For these things to be worthwhile they'd have to project a significant power over the territory they are flying over. That means the conflict shifts from the territory to the cruiser. As the game expands it becomes less about resources and more aobut pummeling the enemy's cruisers to keep them from steamrolling with several of them together. Also if these things are that powerful they could be too powerful for an enemy that's beat down and back to their uncaps from recovering. That's the same sort of problem BFRs created - big things that were hard to destroy that stagnated battles and led to nothing really getting blown up.

I'm pretty sure we want a fluid game where territory can change hands fairl quickly and the combat revolves around infantry and tanks, not the big floating bases.

The more I think about it, the less I like it. Bigger BFRs with even more impact on the game....no thanks.

[Baneblade]

If you read anything other than the title, you would already know that the intention is to not allow these to directly engage in the ground battle. They are intended to be outfit bases and status symbols that also happen to be able to destroy each other.

[Malorn]

That's actually worse because it's then a side-game within planetside and not part of driving conflict or fighting over resources. You may as well put them in an instance and make it a 40 v 40 outfit war for bragging rights.

[Forsaken One]

I'm just trying to say that fighting something as bad ass as that would, at least to me. more sense of army, togetherness and over all teamwork.

and so I pointed out BF2142s Titan. I love its Titan mode x1000 more then the boring CTF mode.

If we could keep them from being spammed and overall limit how many can be on a "planet" at once I think being able to fight a enemy empires outfits "Titan" would be cool and ADD to the game and the fighting.

to stop too many being in one spot make them like other deployed stuff to where one friendly Titan can't be like 3 bases with from another friendly titan or something.

[Baneblade]

That's actually worse because it's then a side-game within planetside and not part of driving conflict or fighting over resources. You may as well put them in an instance and make it a 40 v 40 outfit war for bragging rights.

No more than a water based navy would be. And I didn't say they would have no impact on the ground game. Force projection is a huge aspect of these, and while you can't just farm bases with them, they will still be relevant.

[Malorn]

Not necessarily less interesting than boats. Boats could be much more fragile and not focal points. They could also be amphibious, much like Magriders, Threshers, and Deliverers.

If some hexes were swampy or dominated primarily by water but still had resources, then boats could be quite interesting for winning and controlling that territory. It could be you need a boat to capture it.

The main advantage I see of a boat over aircraft is that in PS2 aircraft aren't floating cameras - there's flight physics. A boat could just sit there as an offshore weapons platform. Perhaps they can be used as artillery for neighboring hexes. Might even have an aircraft carrier type thing with an air-term and rearm pads to use as an off-shore base.

The difference between that offshore base and a crusier is that the cruiser is all-terrain, while the carrier would be limited to coastal areas and its influence limited to watery hexes and coastal hexes. You could ignore them and not orry aobut them moving deeper into your territory (unless they could go up rivers, which makes senes). That means they have limited impact to the game to those regions, as opposed to dominating the game on all terrain types. If they can go up rivers then you'd see them vulnerable to tanks and infantry AV while they might be much safer off-shore out of range of those things.

[Forsaken One]

For starters I think before something is added to the game it needs to have a clear purpose. "Because its cool" isn't sufficient purpose. BFRs were "cool" and they had a terrible impact on the game.
.
^ I'd like to touch on this for a moment. BFRs are for 1-2 people. In a sense they were made powerful for the "Self" such power to the "Self" has little place in Planetside.

now. for laughs I'm going to say this. If the BFR, with the level of power it had, had to have a whole squad or more piloting it, taking that much people out of the battle. been more balanced?

-- Each gun could be weak but need to be maned. and while working together it may have a decently powerful effect on the battlefield at the same time all those people manning the guns could be driving tanks, or rushing the base or etc. It would be in a sense a basic vehicle just with a high power of teamwork and man power making it strong.

[Malorn]

Oh BTW, look at this image that was leaked a while ago:

http://img4.mmo.mmo4arab.com/news/2011/05/23/planetside/planetside2_warfare.jpg

Look at the lower right corner - there's a warpgate AND A FACILITY in the water at the mouth of a river delta.

So if there's boats, you may need them to not only control water territories, but also in order to capture water-based facilities. There appears to be a river system on this map (looks like Hossin to me), so several bases could have riverboat production, with one facility that cannot be attacked except by boat or by air.

I like this design, looks very interesting and will make for fun fights. Seems they're already planning on boats and making them interesting. They might be release vehicles and not part of the 3-year plan.

[Volw]

Matt mentioned boats won't make it for the release but they hope to add them down the line.

[SKYeXile]

but what about the flying bases?!?

after all planetside was highly influenced from tribes.

http://www.flashingblade.net/classics/tribes_4.jpg

[Tikuto]

or a floating Necropolis where necromancers perform magical necromancy

[Baneblade]

Not necessarily less interesting than boats. Boats could be much more fragile and not focal points. They could also be amphibious, much like Magriders, Threshers, and Deliverers.

If some hexes were swampy or dominated primarily by water but still had resources, then boats could be quite interesting for winning and controlling that territory. It could be you need a boat to capture it.

The main advantage I see of a boat over aircraft is that in PS2 aircraft aren't floating cameras - there's flight physics. A boat could just sit there as an offshore weapons platform. Perhaps they can be used as artillery for neighboring hexes. Might even have an aircraft carrier type thing with an air-term and rearm pads to use as an off-shore base.

The difference between that offshore base and a crusier is that the cruiser is all-terrain, while the carrier would be limited to coastal areas and its influence limited to watery hexes and coastal hexes. You could ignore them and not orry aobut them moving deeper into your territory (unless they could go up rivers, which makes senes). That means they have limited impact to the game to those regions, as opposed to dominating the game on all terrain types. If they can go up rivers then you'd see them vulnerable to tanks and infantry AV while they might be much safer off-shore out of range of those things.

Actually I did take terrain into account. Even though these are technically Airships, they have the same rules as water based ships. They are altitude locked for one, which means their interaction with the ground can vary greatly from indirect support only to literally blowing up on a mountainside.