May 21st, 2011 [Archive] - PlanetSide Universe

Firefly

2011-03-14, 10:49 AM

When asked what they would do if they woke up on May 22nd... None of them answered, because that would be doubting the bible and they will not do that
I've been watching that group. I have a close, personal friend who has fallen into that cult. It's very tragic.

She's an Iraq war veteran. She came back from Iraq with a severe case of PTSD. Was drinking a lot, getting into fights - like bare-knuckle brawls. One day she met up with these dudes and got saved, aka found religion. Initially I was relieved because it didn't seem like anything was going to get her off that destructive path. But then she started getting all wonky about it.

She's sold all of her belongings, married some cultist guy, torn up all of her documents and burned them, moved over to some place in Turkey to try and spread their message. She's traveled all over the world with her cult to do this. And it's all been documented on her Facebook page, which is the only reason I've kept her on my list of friends.

According to them, Satan has infiltrated all religions. Judaism (my brand of faith) is a dead religion. Muslims worship a dead god (Allah is the same person as G-d... WTF). Only 2-3% of the population will be chosen, most of them from their sect. Supposedly G-d chose all the people before He even created the earth. Any time you confront them with what the Bible says (most commonly used counter is that verse about "No man shall know the hour") they say something like either "times have changed, we 'decoded' the book of Daniel" or "we were meant to know") they say that they've been chosen. Any time you ask them what they're going to do on May 22nd, they have these canned responses. Of course there will be a media blackout prior to the 21st. Of course they won't be here. Of course if they're still here it simply means they weren't chosen. May 21st is supposed to be a violent day where the anti-Christ comes back from Hell and kills a bunch of people.

On May 22nd I'm going to leave her a simple post on her Facebook page and remove her from my life. It's going to say something like "I hope you find something to fill this void" and simply quote Matthew 23:15, which they've been spewing out as their attack on all other religions.

Manitou

2011-03-14, 11:06 AM

The Bible nowhere gives a date. Even Christ Himself states He does not know the hour; only the Father knows the hour. These people are sprinkling a little bit of truth over their lies--usually that is the slickest way to trick people.

Having said that, there will be a "day of the Lord" - the Scripture, both Old Testament (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Amos, etc.) and New Testament (1 Corinthians, 1&2 Thessalonians, 2 Peter), state this truth.

So, while these deceptive people are using tidbits of truth to further their deception of others, the truth is that day is coming and God's judgment will prevail.

Firefly, there is some no little debate over whether the Muslim Allah is the same as the Old Testament Jehovah. Depending on whether you include the New Testament also will affect the debate since Jesus Christ is presented as the incarnation of God, God in the flesh, or as God Himself. If Jesus is God in flesh, as orthodox Christianity claims based on the New Testament (and OT prophecy for that matter), then His statements concerning Himself must be taken into account and they contradict the Muslim statements concerning Jesus.

Firefly

2011-03-14, 01:32 PM

The Bible nowhere gives a date. Even Christ Himself states He does not know the hour; only the Father knows the hour. These people are sprinkling a little bit of truth over their lies--usually that is the slickest way to trick people.
See that's the thing - the Book of Daniel is, in addition to tales of Daniel, regarded as prophetic due to Daniel's affinity for dreams, visions and prophecies. Several of them were apocalyptic. The Bible doesn't give a date, even they acknowledge this. Their claim is that the Bible says only the true believers will be told, which apparently it does. And provided you believe that G-d works in mysterious ways, an oft-touted quip, and provided you believe that G-d is often cryptic instead of just coming out with it, it means discovery and research is involved. According to them, they've done that work and now they know the date.

This cult's argument, in part, comes from Luke 21:25 - "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring". Solar flares, the supposed "supermoon disaster" slated for March 19th (link) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1365225/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-Did-supermoon-cause-todays-natural-disaster.html), the problems facing many nations today, the 2005 tsunami and the earthquakes in Haiti, Chile/Peru, off the coast of Japan...

They start busting out a whole bunch of other biblical references and scriptures. Like I said, I've been following this closely because a friend of mine is caught up in the whole thing. I'm almost worried that on 21 or 22 May they're going to do something stupid to incite the entire situation, or pull a Jonestown Kool-aid.

Their argument against "no man shall know the date and time" comes from Ecclesiastes 8:5 - "Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth [better translation: will know] both time and judgment." Basically, they claim there are a number of passages that say true believers will be given the date. They claim that the Book of Daniel sealed that information, only to be revealed at the End Times. Daniel 12:4 and 9 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."

So essentially, they're saying that only the true believers will be given advanced warning as guaranteed by the Bible, and that they aren't the first group to be given warning. Specifically, they cite G-d's warning to Noah and to Jonah (destruction of Nineveh).

Manitou

2011-03-14, 02:25 PM

They claim that the Book of Daniel sealed that information, only to be revealed at the End Times. Daniel 12:4 and 9 - "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. And He said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
This is where a proper systematic theology helps. There are a number of ways to refute this cult's nonsense. But basically they are taking OT text, yanking it out of context and melding it with NT context. The prophets were chosen and commissioned by God to speak for Him to the nation of Israel. They were always called in times of Hebrew national apostasy to warn the people of Israel to repent and return to Jehovah God. That is where you get the "Thus saith the LORD..." Based on a dispensational theology, to attempt to combine the prophetic message in the OT with the NT message to the Acts 2 (and forward) church without understanding the different dispensations is to misunderstand the economy of God as He deals with mankind. Certainly we understand that the Last Days (also known as the Day of the LORD) this "sealed book" is once again opened, but we have no way of knowing when that is. But I will submit that as we can watch the seasons and know when the winter is coming, so thus we can watch the "travails" and know when the time is near, even though we will never be able to name it.

So essentially, they're saying that only the true believers will be given advanced warning as guaranteed by the Bible, and that they aren't the first group to be given warning. Specifically, they cite G-d's warning to Noah and to Jonah (destruction of Nineveh).
Again nowhere does the Bible state that someone is getting "advanced warning" whether born-again (John 3:3) or not. This is probably a warped understanding of Paul's inspired writings in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5 where Paul is reassuring the Thessalonian believers that the return has not yet occurred. (Evidently they were worried that they had somehow missed it.)

Again, knowing the Scriptures and having a solid systematic theology will prevent a person from being caught up in this nonsense.

It is tragic about your friend, Firefly. I hope she gets the truth before she is hurt either psychologically, spiritually, and/or possibly physically.

Rbstr

2011-03-14, 02:40 PM

It'd be neat if they were right, It'd be at least one less midterm I had to take.
Really, who wouldn't want to see the end of the world, if it has to happen? Only a small % of the humans that have existed will get that chance!

But really, these guys are going to be wrong, except for some finitely probable cosmic coincidence, and I feel sorry for them. They found something to believe in, to give them a bit of purpose and belonging, even if it is full of shit. To find something that could convince me to drop everything for to go fly around the world? It sounds like adventure to me. In some ways it's a shame I can't believe in invisible entities found in thousand year old books.

Aside from that, the moon is nearing the combination of perigee + full (a "supermoon") ATM...but that would be a natural cause of disaster(perigee happens with alarming regularity! every 27 days[gasp, that would happen to be the period of the moon's orbit, weird, eh?]), the moons phase has nothing to do with gravitational pull), it's only a few % closer and really shouldn't have anything to do with anything.

Manitou

2011-03-14, 02:52 PM

...the moons phase has nothing to do with gravitational pull), it's only a few % closer and really shouldn't have anything to do with anything.
I have a wife and three daughters...the moon's cycle does indeed affect me catastrophically once a month.

Firefly

2011-03-14, 03:08 PM

I've got enough firepower and, in the event that I run out of ammo, there are a number of places within a mile radius from which ammo can be purchased.

Sentrosi

2011-03-14, 06:36 PM

I have my mastery of The Force to protect me and my family. Apart from that the family and I can just head to the secret Dragonwolf compound deep in the Tennessee hills. Fully manned and stocked.

Rbstr

2011-03-14, 06:49 PM

If it's really the biblical end of the world....Why do you think any amount of preparations in guns or food is going to help?

krnasaur

2011-03-14, 07:03 PM

Raymac

2011-03-14, 08:03 PM

Uhhh... guys you do realize all religion was back when Science couldn't explain anything, everything was called a "miracle" right? For example: All of Moses' ten plagues can all be explained by an underwater volcanic eruption. But back in BFE in whatever BC, they see red water and see ashes in the sky they thing "ahh wraith of god!" not "hey look, a volcano erupted"

EDIT: As science evolves the arguement for religion becomes weaker and weaker. I can see the day when everyone just gives up and accepts that religion is for the naive.

The idea that we have a predetermined "doomsday" is silly.

Having faith is not silly or naive. Sure, there are plenty of religious people that take it to the realm of the absurd (i.e. the 5/21/11 people) but that doesn't mean it's all garbage.

Frankly, I think it's pretty bigoted to say if you believe in a higher power, you must be naive or stupid. For example, evolution doesn't conflict with the Bible, even though alot of people seem to think you have to accept one or the other.

I've yet to find anything in science that conflicts with my faith. Sometimes you'll see a headline where some scientist makes a statement about "such and such proving there is no God" but they always fall short of that. Part of that is because it's almost impossible to prove something doesn't exist. The other part is that we find an anwer we didn't have before. Like if we discovered exactly how the Big Bang took place, it doesn't mean a higher power didn't set the right conditions for it.

I'm getting off on a rant, and I'm not even very religious. I just hate being called dumb because I believe in a higher power.

Firefly

2011-03-14, 08:23 PM

If it's really the biblical end of the world....Why do you think any amount of preparations in guns or food is going to help?
There are two different kinds of "end of the world" according to Christianity (of which I am not a member). One, the Rapture or something like an event where all good Christians ascend to/go to heaven. Then there's the actual destruction of the planet. We're talking about the first. When the first comes around, there will be people left behind. This is typically said to be when Satan will rule over the earth in the Tribulation. During that time, if such a thing were to actually happen and turns out we **** were hideously mistaken for 2000 years, well then I guess I'd need a lot of guns, ammo, and food. Does this clarify the situation for you, or shall I continue?

Uhhh... guys you do realize all religion was back when Science couldn't explain anything, everything was called a "miracle" right? For example: All of Moses' ten plagues can all be explained by an underwater volcanic eruption. But back in BFE in whatever BC, they see red water and see ashes in the sky they thing "ahh wraith of god!" not "hey look, a volcano erupted"

EDIT: As science evolves the arguement for religion becomes weaker and weaker. I can see the day when everyone just gives up and accepts that religion is for the naive.

The idea that we have a predetermined "doomsday" is silly.
I bet you think wrestling is fake, too.

krnasaur

2011-03-14, 08:49 PM

belief's are belief's, I chose to believe there is no "higherpower" and that others are wrong and thinking there is one.

Haven't you seen "The Wrestler" ofcourse its real!

Rbstr

2011-03-14, 11:25 PM

Really, I wanted to put up an argument sort of supporting you. But then you put an apostrophe in "beliefs" and I just couldn't muster up the energy. My grammar may not be impeccable...but come on. At least turn on the firefox spell check.

One this I will say is about Raymac's statement: It's equally impossible to prove something does exist in the absence of any evidence. That whole "can't disprove" argument is tired and should be left for the middle-schoolers. You have your belief, it's not rational or empirical in any way. But that's ok as long as it's constructive and not being used to justify the unjust. Religion can bring comfort and happiness and there's some great stuff in the dogma on how to be a decent person (I like the beatitudes myself), on those grounds you can't call it idiotic.

Firefly: When the rapture happens is by no means clear in Christianity, it may happen before during or right at the end of the tribulation depending on which sect you happen to belong to. Personally I think world wide mountain leveling earthquakes and giant hailstones are hard to survive no matter the preparation.
Really that was just a joke, if you couldn't tell I've got no stock in a mythical end of times. But if God exists and is really out to get us, I feel like all the guns in the world would be holy inadequate ;)

Baneblade

2011-03-15, 12:05 AM

I unsubscribed from Apocalypse: Next Tuesday Magazine, I just want to have fun killing the zombies the believers turn into. I got my shotgun and enough ammo to commit suicide just by hitting a speed bump too hard.

Firefly

2011-03-15, 10:41 AM

Really that was just a joke, if you couldn't tell I've got no stock in a mythical end of times. But if God exists and is really out to get us, I feel like all the guns in the world would be holy inadequate ;)
I don't think G-d is out to get us. I was raised in a bi-religious household. My father is a Methodist (now a Methodist minister), and my mom is Jewish. As I understand it, the "end times" prophesied in the Bible have nothing to do with the destruction of the planet but rather the Rapture wherein all Believers are taken home to Heaven (not exactly the actions of a guy who wants to take you all out), followed by Satan's rule of the world. After a sufficient time, the Messiah will come again (Second Coming) and abolish Satan and rule the earth for a thousand years. Satan's dominance comes from the fact that true believers are gone, leaving behind unrepentant sinners, non-believers, and wishy-washy on the fence types who don't want to offend anyone by claiming to be devout Christians or atheists (aka liberals). So there's no one left to say "Hey Satan, old bean. Shut the hell up and get thee gone from me." IE, your father caught you looking at his playboys, and now you're grounded. Punishment. Disciplinary action. And once your grounding is done, he comes back and says "Here old bean, let's go fishing!"

It all sounds rather fantastical when you think about it, but who's to say we've reached the pinnacle of our evolution? Who's to say we've achieved all that we can? Who's to say we have developed and plateau'd? Could people living in the 11th century imagined what would happen a thousand years hence?

Let's think about this in realistic terms. A thousand years ago, could they have imagined rifles and machine guns? Could they have imagined aircraft? Could they have imagined tanks? Could they have imagined electricity? Could they have imagined body armour that didn't weigh eighty pounds? Could they have imagined skyscrapers? Computers? The internet? Could they fathom being able to talk to someone on the other side of the planet? Hell, they couldn't even imagine what lay beyond "Here There Be Dragons".

So, we have advanced technology but we can't explore past our own solar system. We're primitive but we have science fiction. Spaceships, lasers, BattleMechs, colonies on other planets, terraforming, faster-than-light travel, tractor beams, Death Stars, etc. We can dream and we can achieve. So is it really that far-fetched that some all-powerful being comes out of the sky and dominates our planet?

Maybe G-d is some space-faring guy with awesome technology like in Stargate. He's gonna come back, and he's gonna be mad as fuck about shit like Sarah Palin and Justin Bieber. And we're all gonna pay.

Hamma

2011-03-15, 02:46 PM

Hey I am an Atheist and not a Liberal. :p

Manitou

2011-03-15, 02:58 PM

Hey I am an Atheist and not a Liberal. :p
What's interesting is I am a born-again, blood-bought believer called to preach the name of Jesus Christ from His Word, as well as a "degreed" theologian and Bible student, and me and Hamma are friends.

:lol:

Raymac

2011-03-15, 04:15 PM

One this I will say is about Raymac's statement: It's equally impossible to prove something does exist in the absence of any evidence. That whole "can't disprove" argument is tired and should be left for the middle-schoolers. You have your belief, it's not rational or empirical in any way. But that's ok as long as it's constructive and not being used to justify the unjust. Religion can bring comfort and happiness and there's some great stuff in the dogma on how to be a decent person (I like the beatitudes myself), on those grounds you can't call it idiotic.

You are absolutely right. The whole "can't prove a negative" arguement cuts both ways. Having faith is not about having evidence to support it. I'm someone who is usually a skeptic, so I actually surprise myself a bit that I've maintained my faith.

The only evidence I point to is the exisitence of the universe itself, and mathematics. We don't create math, we discover it, and that kind of order to the universe, to me, shows design.

One of the other remarkable bits of evidence is a little more tangible. While visions of Mary seem pretty common, and I'm usually very skeptical of their claims, there is one that I just have not been able to discredit. There is a town in the former Yugoslavia called Medjugorje where starting the 80s, Mary appeared to a group of children regularly. I won't go into the details, but I recommend looking it up because no matter how skeptical you are, it is very interesting.

Hamma

2011-03-15, 05:07 PM

What's interesting is I am a born-again, blood-bought believer called to preach the name of Jesus Christ from His Word, as well as a "degreed" theologian and Bible student, and me and Hamma are friends.

:lol:

AND similar political views as well. :lol:

Nephilimuk

2011-03-15, 06:35 PM

it's an untruth told by an unbeliever

I saw no sign of this in reading the Hare guts this morning.

Firefly

2011-03-15, 11:40 PM

Hey I am an Atheist and not a Liberal. :p
Yeah that was my particular brand of comedy.

Manitou

2011-03-16, 06:50 AM

AND similar political views as well. :lol:
...and we like FUDGE AND GUNS.

JayC

2011-03-16, 09:05 AM

As science evolves the arguement for religion becomes weaker and weaker. I can see the day when everyone just gives up and accepts that religion is for the naive.

This should be the case now, there's way too much science now for smart, sensible people to be religious. If you really believe that the Bible - a book written by people a million times more misguided than us - is non-fiction and that there is a God, then you are a fool.

Manitou

2011-03-16, 10:07 AM

Raymac

2011-03-16, 01:02 PM

This should be the case now, there's way too much science now for smart, sensible people to be religious. If you really believe that the Bible - a book written by people a million times more misguided than us - is non-fiction and that there is a God, then you are a fool.

On the flip side, with everything that we know about science and mathematics, I don't see how people can believe that the universe just happened. The order we see in physics and chemistry etc. etc., all just happened without any design at all?

I just think it's amazingly foolish to think humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe, especially with all we know now about 10+ dimensions. I mean, if there is a God, he would be on a much higher level of exisitence that we wouldn't even be able to begin to understand. It would be like trying to explain to a fish how to design a video game, it's just so far outside their realm of understanding, there would be nowhere to start.

As for the Bible, that was kind of the point of Jesus. One of his main messages was don't get so hung up on the literal letter of the word, but honor the spirit of the word. (i.e. Use your brain) And what was the spirit of the word? It's very simple, treat others as you wish to be treated.

I'm not trying to convert anyone, I never do. I just wanted to express how someone who is smart and sensible can still believe in God.

Hamma

2011-03-16, 02:00 PM

I for one don't think that humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of other civilizations out there that came about the same way we did :D

JayC

2011-03-16, 02:06 PM

I completely agree, there has to be something higher out there, but the fact that a lot of people take the Bible to be so literal is ridiculous.

Forget about God for a second, I was referring to the religion, and religious ways, I meant believing in THE God of the bible to be foolish. The fact that you think there is an all-loving, all caring God makes you a fool, not the fact that you think there is a God. I do believe there is a higher power, but to go by the word of people who say they have been spoken to by God is absolutely foolish in the highest sense of the word.

There's even a girl on YouTube who is thanking God for the Japan Earthquake, saying that he was getting rid of the Atheists and it was a blessing, not a disaster. That's fucked up, I know it's not all people, but its fucked up

You can believe in God all you want, that's fine, but to follow a religion so blindly is unbelievable, a religion that says Noah's Ark was a true story, that being Gay is wrong, condones Slavery, allows to treat women as second class citizens, and tells you to worship him or you will die a horrible, painful death and burn in the depths of hell forever sounds to me like the bad team!

I mean, how many people did God kill in the bible, according to the stories? Most of the planet, for sure. How many did Satan kill as told in the bible?

To me, there is no "God" or "Satan", there is the Universe, there is for sure life in other Galaxies, and we are a tiny part of it. We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know. You look at Evolution and you can't help but feel we're just a really elaborate game of Pokemon.

Some of the Bible may make a lot of sense, for sure, but to follow every ideology to the last bit, which a lot of people do, is goofy

Manitou

2011-03-16, 02:14 PM

To me, there is no "God" or "Satan", there is the Universe, there is for sure life in other Galaxies, and we are a tiny part of it. We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know. You look at Evolution and you can't help but feel we're just a really elaborate game of Pokemon.
I found this final paragraph of the most interest. You unequivocally state that to you "there is no "God" or "Satan"" and yet then you follow up with "We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know."

Following this train of thought, "for all we know" there could be a God. Wouldn't you agree?

JayC

2011-03-16, 02:24 PM

I found this final paragraph of the most interest. You unequivocally state that to you "there is no "God" or "Satan"" and yet then you follow up with "We could be a molecule in the balls of another man in another Universe, for all we know."

Following this train of thought, "for all we know" there could be a God. Wouldn't you agree?

I don't think you understood. I'm referring to the God of the bible, the one whose "image we were created in". Anything that contains a paradox is impossible. God is the epitome of paradox, I'm sure you've heard the old "can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

I believe there are higher powers, but religions like Christianity have way too many flaws. A lot of Catholic priests are child molestors. There is a lot of evidence to the fact that the Pope has protected them and moved them around. These are the so called followers and priests of God, yet you are seen as a good person for being religious. Buddhism is the only one that promotes positivity, doesn't limit it to one God, doesn't tell you you will burn in hell unless you beg for forgiveness. God sounds a lot like a Dictator. Atheism is just as foolish as Christianity or Islam. For now, until someone proves that there IS a God, I'll always be on the side of "There could be".

There are a lot of good things about a Church environment, the ones that promote positivity, but the same book also says a lot of ridiculous things too.

JayC

2011-03-16, 02:30 PM

YouTube - Joe Rogan***39;s Theory on Life and People

Watch this, it's a very interesting theory

Raymac

2011-03-16, 02:34 PM

I for one don't think that humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe. I'm willing to bet there's plenty of other civilizations out there that came about the same way we did :D

I'm sure there's other civilizations out there too. With the amount of stars out there, and our ever increasing discovery of planets around those stars, it's becoming even more likely. The one downside is that even after all these years, SETI has turned up with nothing. Thats a bit depressing, but the lack of evidence is not the evidence of lack.

What I meant though was I'm talking about a whole level of intelligence higher than our own, exisiting in another dimension that makes it near impossible for us to comprehend. God's not a Santa Claus figure living in a cloud, but our minds have to come up with some image.

Like I don't think the book of Genesis should be taken word for word, but I do find it interesting that the order of creation in Genesis is pretty dead on with how we believe the universe was created. 1) Seperated heavens and earth - Creation of matter. 2) Let there be light - Creation of stars 3) Creation of water 4) Seperation of water from land - Collection of water into seas and land becoming continents. 5) Plants begin to grow. 6) Animals begin to grow. 7) Mankind is created - Evolved from animals.

Could very likely just be a conincidence, but I find it interesting.

Manitou

2011-03-16, 02:40 PM

I don't think you understood. I'm referring to the God of the bible, the one whose "image we were created in". Anything that contains a paradox is impossible. God is the epitome of paradox, I'm sure you've heard the old "can he create a rock he cannot lift?"
Okay, understood. But the concept of a paradox is a human concept, correct? It is restricted to and dependent upon natural laws. Let's assume this God is the Creator God of the Bible. It would be safe to say He would not be bound by these natural laws because He would of necessity be outside of them, correct? So a paradox would not apply to Him. He could be anywhere at once, He is not bound by time, etc.

Also, assuming He an infinitely intelligent God He would not attempt to create something that is too big for Him to pick up, since that would be silly. Just because God is capable of anything doesn't mean He will choose to do something silly. That would be a violation of His perfect grasp of logic.

For now, until someone proves that there IS a God, I'll always be on the side of "There could be".
So, if "there could be" a God, that would then leave open "there could be" a God of the Bible. If that is a possibility then there is a possibility that this God is the Creator God and has the right of judgment (over His creation) for those who reject Him. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, even a human judge must render a verdict on those who reject the law whether that person agreed with it, or even believes it exists, or not (to use a somewhat weak analogy).

By the way, I am enjoying the conversation! Many times people will not be as civil when discussing these topics.

JayC

2011-03-16, 02:55 PM

Yes, I agree. There could be a God, there could be a God of the Bible, but a lot of logic and research I have done seems to point otherwise. To you, maybe the logic seems to point that there is a God of the Bible.

You are entitled to your beliefs, and as you say you don't consider yourself religious. I am moreso against the religion, rather than people who believe there is a God. I'd be very, very silly to bash people who believe in a God as I believe there is a higher power, I just don't know what, and it would be very hypocritical of me to say you are wrong and I am right to someone who believes the same thing.

I don't think your judge thing is the best analogy (as you pointed out yourself) although I do see where you are coming from. The judge is one of us, following the laws of the people who lay it down. He doesn't condemn them because he chooses to, he does it because he has to. If the law was right in the first place, he wouldn't have to make a decision like that. If the God you are saying has infinite knowledge, he'd be crazy to condemn people who reject him if he didn't give them more guidance than he has.

If God came to me and spoke to me and proved to me that he exists, I would for sure say I believe in God. Maybe this happens when we die. This leads me to...

There are other ways of contact, I have seen the "spirit dimension" through other means, although I won't delve too much into that as it's a whole new discussion.

However, I'd like to point out that near death experiences, often related to God, involve a secretion of the molecule Dimethyltryptamine (DMT), which is produced in every single living thing in this world (and most probably others), in our case the Pineal gland, the organ in your brain so often referred to as the third eye. This secretion occurs when your body thinks it is dying, and exposing your body to the DMT through other means usually involves transporting out of your body, into this other dimension. If this happens during death, then surely this is the place we go when we die...I'll let you decide :)

Raymac

2011-03-16, 02:56 PM

A lot of Catholic priests are child molestors. There is a lot of evidence to the fact that the Pope has protected them and moved them around. These are the so called followers and priests of God, yet you are seen as a good person for being religious.

I'm really getting tired of this extremely bigoted and insulting arguement. It is exactly, absolutely exactly the same as saying **** are greedy, or blacks are stupid, or asians are bad drivers. All those statements are incredibly racist and wrong, and saying catholic priests are a bunch of pedophiles is just as insulting and frankly not accurate.

According to studies, in the Catholic Church 4% of priests have been accused of sexual misconduct. That number is already too high, but in the general population, that number jumps to 10%. Also, the president of the National Center for Missing and Expoilted Children has stated "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else."

Now, the fact that the Church seemed more worried about covering up the scandals instead of dealing with them is a stain that they will have to deal with for many many years, and it's good to see them working through that process now.

So sure, when it happens, it's always a big news story, and it makes a great punchline for jokes, but as a Catholic, it's the same as calling me an N-word.

Raymac

2011-03-16, 03:10 PM

Anything that contains a paradox is impossible. God is the epitome of paradox, I'm sure you've heard the old "can he create a rock he cannot lift?"

Actually, I thought it was, "Could God microwave a burrito so hot that even He could not eat it?" but maybe I watch too much Simpsons. :)

But this idea that anything that contains a paradox is impossible is flawed at best. Take time travel for example. We already know timetravel is possible since time is relative. It's been proven with experiments. Yet, timetravel is filled with paradoxes.

Just because there is a paradox doesn't mean it's impossible.

Manitou

2011-03-16, 03:11 PM

If the God you are saying has infinite knowledge, he'd be crazy to condemn people who reject him if he didn't give them more guidance than he has.

If God came to me and spoke to me and proved to me that he exists, I would for sure say I believe in God. Maybe this happens when we die.
You see, I believe God has given us sufficient guidance. I believe the Bible is that guidance. Yes, the Old Testament is difficult to understand and it certainly is hard to "get our heads around". I have been studying it for over ten years and I still struggle with some things. But along with the New Testament it presents a revelation about God, and guidance from God, to His creation. Might it be the guidance to which you refer?

Also, I really don't think God showing up right in front of you would convince you necessarily. According to the Bible Jesus Christ is God and when He showed up, the Bible records He was rejected. That is why faith is such a large part of true biblical relationship-based (non-religious) Christianity.

JayC I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation! It is not often I get to "speak" with people who are as open to a dialogue as you have been...Thanks! I hope I have given you food for thought! :D

JayC

2011-03-16, 03:14 PM

I'm really getting tired of this extremely bigoted and insulting arguement. It is exactly, absolutely exactly the same as saying **** are greedy, or blacks are stupid, or asians are bad drivers. All those statements are incredibly racist and wrong, and saying catholic priests are a bunch of pedophiles is just as insulting and frankly not accurate.

According to studies, in the Catholic Church 4% of priests have been accused of sexual misconduct. That number is already too high, but in the general population, that number jumps to 10%. Also, the president of the National Center for Missing and Expoilted Children has stated "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else."

Now, the fact that the Church seemed more worried about covering up the scandals instead of dealing with them is a stain that they will have to deal with for many many years, and it's good to see them working through that process now.

So sure, when it happens, it's always a big news story, and it makes a great punchline for jokes, but as a Catholic, it's the same as calling me an N-word.

I completely disagree, I know various people who went to Catholic boarding schools and they were treated very, very badly. Catholic Nuns are EVIL people, absolute evil. The studies you've said that say there are only 4% of priests that are Child Molestors, you believe those right?

According to studies done 6 years ago, there are over 406,411 Catholic Priests on Earth. 4% of 406,411 is 16, 256! 16 THOUSAND child molestors in the Catholic church alone is absolutely ridiculous, one is bad enough, but 16 thousand?! Not once have I said that ALL of them are like that, but that number is way, way too much.

It all stems down to celibacy in the religion, another flaw. Sexuality is natural, celibacy is not. Some people can control themselves but a lot can't, especially men. They see young boys as easy to control, and there is less chance of them saying anything. Catholic Nuns are evil bitches because they haven't seen a dick in their life. Can you imagine not having sexual pleasure, you'd go CRAZY.

JayC

2011-03-16, 03:18 PM

JayC I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation! It is not often I get to "speak" with people who are as open to a dialogue as you have been...Thanks! I hope I have given you food for thought!

For sure, I have also! You have definitely given me food for thought but one more thing:

You believe he has given us sufficient evidence with the Bible, but for me and many others, he hasn't. Perhaps he has seen the err of his ways and is now basically giving us magic mushrooms to come to our own theory! :)

Raymac

2011-03-16, 03:31 PM

I completely disagree, I know various people who went to Catholic boarding schools and they were treated very, very badly. Catholic Nuns are EVIL people, absolute evil. The studies you've said that say there are only 4% of priests that are Child Molestors, you believe those right?

According to studies done 6 years ago, there are over 406,411 Catholic Priests on Earth. 4% of 406,411 is 16, 256! 16 THOUSAND child molestors in the Catholic church alone is absolutely ridiculous, one is bad enough, but 16 thousand?!

You are right, 1 child molestor is 1 too many. However, my point was that priests are just people. They didn't descend from heaven or anything, so they will be flawed just like anyone else. 16,000 in the whole world is alot, but do you know how many registered sex offenders there are living in the US alone? Over 700,000. However the media has done a good job in portraying Catholic priests as having a much higher number of pedophiles in their ranks than there are in society, and that is simply not true.

Also, I agree, nuns are bitches. I went to Catholic school for years and those nuns (well most of them) were straight up bitches, but you know what? They fucking got results. They may be bitches, but at the end of the school year, I knew the capitol of Vermont.

Overall though, the Church does a huge amount of good for people all around the world, and I don't just mean spiritual good. They are leaders in education, health care, and just basic charity. The amount of money they spend on charity is rivaled only by the Gates Foundation but as we all know, Bill Gates has more money than God.

JayC

2011-03-16, 03:46 PM

They got results, that's fair, but I wasn't brought up like that and I did pretty well, I know a fair bit, so you can't say it's because they were bitches.

I know, the fact that there are so many is bad but Priests are a high authority and trusted in the religious world, especially amongst church-goers. They should be punished more severely, not protected by the Pope, who is an absolute joke with his beliefs on contraception, he sacked his chief astronomer for disagreeing. This guy who was a chief priest, and he came to the conclusion that there was no design, but random and natural selection, was sacked because of his views. Ridiculous

Raymac

2011-03-16, 04:11 PM

Well, yeah obviously the nun's way is not the only way, but there is something to be said for dicipline.

I also agree that I believe the Church is behind the curve on many issues like birth control and homosexuality, but I also believe they will come around eventually. The Church is very very slow to change, which I feel is a good thing. We already are surrounded by too many knee-jerk reactions to events. The Church was doing mass in Latin, a dead language, until the 1960s. LATIN.

So the Church changes, but they just do it on a timescale that most of us arn't used to. Plus, that priest was fired from his job at the vatican (he's still a priest btw) because he was publicly argueing with his boss. I know the Church will come around to accept the theory of evolution just as they've done with other scientific theories over the centuries, but if you are argueing with your boss about company policy in public in any job, you are going to get fired.

Rbstr

2011-03-16, 04:36 PM

Also, assuming He an infinitely intelligent God He would not attempt to create something that is too big for Him to pick up, since that would be silly. Just because God is capable of anything doesn't mean He will choose to do something silly. That would be a violation of His perfect grasp of logic.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's completely skirting the issue of the hot burrito or heavy rock. "He won't do it because it's dumb" implies nothing of the impossibility of the paradox. He either can or can't, that generates the paradox. Intent has nothing to do with it.

You absolutely cannot say you're not religious and still believe in mystical higher powers. It's the definition of the word religious. You still have your own religious dogma. You may not practice some particular sect, which is a different thing and what I think most "problems" of religion tend to stem from.

It's also two completely different things to believe God could exist or being open to the fact that there could be more potent beings in existence in the universe. The alien which has sufficiently advanced technology or existence to appear to as a god is not mystical. It requires no magic to believe a being such as that could exist, even without uprooting our understanding of physics as a whole.
Gods that can be explained and observed with the methods of science are not religious gods, they are just blobs of science like everything else.

[Now no longer referring to anyone specifically]

My only objection to religion in a vacuum away from the individual practices is when someone uses supposedly supernatural evidence to make decisions. That's what leads to the bad stuff.
It boils down to this:
Absolutely nothing in this world required for survival or civilisation requires any kind of the supernatural.

(as a sort of disclaimer...I'm a grad student at Notre Dame...I've got no ill will to catholics in general, in a number of ways they're more progressive than the others, and sometimes I think they're critically mistaken. But you absolutely have to admit the church completely mishandled the molestation issues - and in a way that wasn't terribly morally ambiguous. Bad people can happen to anyone, its how you handle the aftermath that counts.)

Raymac

2011-03-16, 05:09 PM

The hot burrito / heavy rock paradox arguement is flawed from the beginning. Essentially you are asking a question which cannot be answered. It's like what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. It can't be answered.

So what the question is really asking is, "What are the limitations of God?" That we have no answer to either. Human beings cannot comprehend the limitations of God any more than a canary can comprehend the limitations of a '68 Camaro. Sure a canary is good at understanding how to fly and sing and build a nest, but where would you start to try explaining when you don't even have a basic frame of reference to begin with? (assuming of course you were Dr. Dolittle and could talk)

Manitou

2011-03-16, 06:06 PM

Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's completely skirting the issue of the hot burrito or heavy rock. "He won't do it because it's dumb" implies nothing of the impossibility of the paradox. He either can or can't, that generates the paradox. Intent has nothing to do with it.
I was not attempting to "skirt the issue". My point is that simply because someone can come up with a silly or illogical situation doesn't mean it needs to be tested by action on the part of an intelligent being. Intent has everything to do with it. If you knew something was theoretically impossible, why attempt to do it? God exists outside of the temporal plane, which is an impossible concept for us to perceive.

(as a sort of disclaimer...I'm a grad student at Notre Dame...I've got no ill will to catholics in general, in a number of ways they're more progressive than the others, and sometimes I think they're critically mistaken.
I'm a grad student as well. But I am not Catholic, if that was what you had assumed. I have a living relationship with the God of the Bible through Christ His Son. I won't reveal my denomination for that is irrelevant in the discussion.

TRex

2011-03-16, 07:19 PM

I'd like to believe in a higher being , but the thing that holds me back is religion.
Whether its the Bible , Khoran or whatever , the thing that niggles me is that they were written by men in ages past.
In simple terms , if 500 years ago I gave someone an asparin to cure their headache , or told them to clean their hands to prevent infection from bacteria, chances are I would have been strung up on a bonfire for witch-craft.
If I was an aspiring Alexander-the-Great-wanabee-type a couple of thousand years ago , and I wanted to get people to follow me or fight against my enemies , I'd have to either tax people to pay for an army , enslave them , or simply declare that this was a holy crusade and anyone not participating would be a satan worshipper and would be cleansed of their sins by punishment of death.
You see, religion is a great tool by men to get other men to do their bidding.
Maybe , just maybe , at some point in times past there was something actually God-given to someone .
But the very people who allegedly translated and taught the 'word of God' in ages past I have severe reservations about their intentions and how much has been twisted to suit their needs at the time. A few thousand years of chinese whispers can change any story into whatever they want.
One of the few things I recall about Jesus from the NT was when he started attacking a temple and accusing worshippers there of worshipping false idols , and stated that the way to God was through themselves ie their way of living.
Yet , once Jesus is dead , this all goes by the wayside , bring it forward a few hundred years and we have a Pope and huge cathedrals , and the so-called spreading the word of the Lord is restricted to the writing of Monks in Latin and who own the vast majority of the land on which the common people have to pay taxes to. You basically have the choice of pay the taxes and be a christian , or lose your home and be branded a witch/devil-worshipper.
Same thing goes with Muslim religion. The average muslim I meet is hard-working , family orientated type and no desire for conflict at all , in fact it goes against what his religion is about. Yet there is always some idiot somewhere in the world trying to stir things up and trying to manipulate the weak-minded to do their bidding with suicide bombs or whatever and attempting to gain more power and followers as a result.
The cult brought to the fore with this thread is just another example of manipulation to suit their own ends in a long line of the same thing over-and-over.
So, as you can see , in the current modern age I find it no surprise people look more to science for answers or at least real answers to some questions. Go back many thousands of years, and people would say the gods were angry at them and casting them into fire for not worhipping them. Now , you would watch the news on tv and see that a volcano had erupted due to being near a fault line near the pacific plate. Remember the world was flat !
Or, conversely , maybe the whole line of what I have been saying is in fact all part of the devils work to manipulate people into not needing a God any more. Your next-door neighbour could be a serial killer or Paedophile , but who cares when all you are bothered about is who will win Xfactor .
I wish I had faith, but I have little faith in men , there's my conundrum.

Firefly

2011-03-16, 08:45 PM

I for one don't think that humans are the highest order of intelligence in the universe.
As evidenced by the amount of ignorant fuckers on this forum, to say nothing of other places on the internet where rampant stupidity rears its head so high that you choke on its foul breath.

There's even a girl on YouTube who is thanking God for the Japan Earthquake, saying that he was getting rid of the Atheists and it was a blessing, not a disaster. That's fucked up, I know it's not all people, but its fucked up
Congratulations, Einstein. You have been trolled:
YouTube - repost: tamtampamela - coming clean

A lot of Catholic priests are child molestors. There is a lot of evidence to the fact that the Pope has protected them and moved them around. These are the so called followers and priests of God, yet you are seen as a good person for being religious.
So I didn't take this literally. But I'll tell you what came to mind when I read it: Way to basically, in so many words, paint all Protestants with the same brush. I mean, you didn't exactly go to lengths to say that Baptists are dick-suckers and Methodists are boy-fuckers and Pentecostal Holiness people are just fucking batshit insane and, well, Episcopalians (aka Catholic-Lite) don't fuck little boys they just admire their naked bodies. But you sure as hell just pretty much insinuated that followers and priests of G-d are all a bunch of NAMBLA fuckers by saying "THE followers", which essentially made my brain interpret something you probably didn't mean.

Choose your words more carefully. I'm not being pedantic here, just telling you what my brain chose to envision based on your words.

Lonehunter

2011-03-16, 11:15 PM

As a book critic, I think the sequel was better. The first one, "Old Testament" is a damn horror storry

JayC

2011-03-17, 06:49 AM

So I didn't take this literally. But I'll tell you what came to mind when I read it: Way to basically, in so many words, paint all Protestants with the same brush. I mean, you didn't exactly go to lengths to say that Baptists are dick-suckers and Methodists are boy-fuckers and Pentecostal Holiness people are just fucking batshit insane and, well, Episcopalians (aka Catholic-Lite) don't fuck little boys they just admire their naked bodies. But you sure as hell just pretty much insinuated that followers and priests of G-d are all a bunch of NAMBLA fuckers by saying "THE followers", which essentially made my brain interpret something you probably didn't mean.

Choose your words more carefully. I'm not being pedantic here, just telling you what my brain chose to envision based on your words.

Haha damn, trolled to fuck! :lol:

What your brain chose to envision based on my words is not my fault, as my words were: "A lot of Catholic priests".

I didn't tarnish them all with the same brush. A 4% chance of my child being molested is too much. If you would care to read it again, you will see what I put. I said that Catholic priests are followers of God, and the fact that people place their trust in them solely because they follow God is flawed. They are an authority whom a lot of people place their trust in, and for this they should be severely punished if they molest children, not protected! Not all of them do it, I'm not ignorant enough to think that, but those that do should be punished.

But you sure as hell just pretty much insinuated that followers and priests of G-d are all a bunch of NAMBLA fuckers by saying "THE followers", which essentially made my brain interpret something you probably didn't mean

Again, I didn't say all the followers, :)

Firefly

2011-03-17, 08:21 AM

JayC

2011-03-17, 08:30 AM

So don't be a Catholic. If that's your brand of religion, go Episcopalian. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that your child - as well as his child, her child, their child, my child - is just as vulnerable to predators in practically any other place. Some aren't so heartless as to abduct a child in order to do it. There are probably just as many teachers in school - have you seen the spate of teachers (many of them hot chicks) who are being busted for sex with students? Where's your condemnation for them? Are you home-schooling your child?

I'd prefer to not have any religion at all. I was talking about my metaphorical child. A child is not on my list of things to do for a long time. You are right though, a child is vulnerable everywhere, but a church SHOULD be a place where you are confident that they are safe, correct?

If my child was old enough and had sex with a hot chick teacher, I'd high five him, for sure!

Firefly

2011-03-17, 09:02 AM

If my child was old enough and had sex with a hot chick teacher, I'd high five him, for sure!
So it's okay for a child to have sex with a hot teacher, but it's not okay for someone else in a position of authority like, say, a fat old man wearing a collar?

Manitou

2011-03-17, 10:48 AM

Are you home-schooling your child?
This is win.

Manitou

2011-03-17, 10:49 AM

So it's okay for a child to have sex with a hot teacher, but it's not okay for someone else in a position of authority like, say, a fat old man wearing a collar?
This question is winX2.

Firefly

2011-03-17, 11:03 AM

I find it intensely ironic that many people would congratulate their kid on scoring with a hot teacher, yet they're appalled about the notion of a religious person touching their kid. Indeed I used to think the same way (when I was a teenager and had a hot teacher). I went so far as to look up one of my teachers after I graduated from Basic Training. But then I had a son of my own (no, not with the hot teacher).

The reality of the situation, at least to a parent like me, is that someone in a position of authority whether they are part of a religious organization or an educational facility is, in fact, in a position of authority and responsibility. To take advantage of that, to abuse it, is a crime and a travesty. That's regardless of the age. If a priest touches a 14yr old altar boy and a smokin' hot babe of a teacher fucks her 14 year old male student, it's the exact same thing except that in one case it's a homosexual experience. In both cases, it's a supposedly mature adult with a juvenile. In both cases the grown-up is preying on the weaker, inexperienced, immature mind. The fact that a religious person would molest someone is a hypocrisy but that doesn't excuse the smokin' hot teacher, regardless of how old she is. There's something wrong with a 22yr old woman having sex with a 14yr old boy just the same as a 22yr old guy having sex with a 14yr old girl just the same as there's something wrong with a 50yr old priest touching an altar boy.

I have a son. If a smokin' hot teacher puts her diseased hands on my kid, there's no force in the world that will stop me from destroying her. I won't even let it come to that, if I can help it. And maybe a 16yr old Firefly Junior would be upset that I cock-blocked him, but years later when he's got kids of his own I have no doubt that he'd thank me for protecting him. If anyone here is the sort of parent that would high-five their 14yr old for having sex with a teacher, you have some seriously fucked-up priorities and I daresay you have other problems of your own. This is why I advocate sterilization of idiots.

Rbstr

2011-03-17, 01:29 PM

Not to excuse any cases of abusing power and the like but theoretically you can have an 18 year old student and 22 year old teacher in high school. I mean, my parents are 4 years apart. Things can start to get blurry there. I know of a case close to me like that, the guy wasn't even a teacher of any of her classes, it happened outside that. After the hubbub they moved and got married...I'm sort of unsure what to think about that one. Yeah, he was a teacher, but the thing seemed fairly "pure" from my bystander's perspective.

But like I was saying. The crimes of the priests themselves are no different from anywhere else. The Church is, however, absolutely at fault for how they handled the problem, with coverups, protection and relocation of the offenders. A school district wouldn't get away with that.

As far as that fake video goes:
There's no way to tell a parody of religious viewpoint from a "real" religious viewpoint without the troll coming clean or otherwise being exposed. It's called Poe's law.
Perhaps that's the most telling aspect of the religion debate.

As far as JayC goes: Take your lol trolled nonsense and shove it. You're the kind of person that just compounds the problems of arguing in favour of secularism.

Firefly

2011-03-17, 01:53 PM

Not to excuse any cases of abusing power and the like but theoretically you can have an 18 year old student and 22 year old teacher in high school.
If my kid is still in high school at the age of 18, I see that as a problem and a reflection on my abilities as a parent. But regardless, yeah I know - when I was a junior in high school we had a student-teacher who was 22. She was wicked hot. And unfortunately she was dating some douchebag pro-footballer so none of us stood a chance.

Nonetheless, the fact of the matter remains this: the emotional maturity of a 14yr old leaves much to be desired. The emotional maturity of a 16yr old isn't much better, nor at 17. Hell, I know a metric fuckton of 19yr olds who are plain batshit crazy and emotionally undeveloped. When you compound that fact with the abuse of authority/power by someone who is in a mentorship role, that just goes way overboard.

JayC

2011-03-18, 05:57 AM

People on this forum tend to read the bits they want, :/

I did say old enough, didn't I? That is 18...you agreed with me that it isn't wrong for that. If they were underage for sure it is wrong but I DID say old enough.

It's the 13 year old altar boys being touched unwillingly, it's completely different. I don't see how you can compare the two.

Shove it? Because I have an opinion that differs from yours? :lol: Behave yourself

bennybikerboy

2011-03-18, 11:46 AM

Wow, guys. Didn't mean to create a heated debate! :)

But I do dig this. I'll read this when I get home later. I'm in school right now.

I try not to think about religion and existance and afterlife as it makes me depressed because it makes life look like a big waste of time, and in a certain stance it is. (like a nihilist point of view.)

But you gotta wonder: maybe there is a higher power. Maybe there is a creator. Maybe it's just a fat neckbeard and we're part of his experiment.

Sometimes I toy with the idea that I'm in a tube somewhere floating in jelly and I'm hooked up to wires and all these friends I've made don't exist and I exist in a world outside of this world. Kind of like The Matrix. :eek:

Manitou

2011-03-18, 12:11 PM

I try not to think about religion and existance and afterlife as it makes me depressed because it makes life look like a big waste of time, and in a certain stance it is. (like a nihilist point of view.)
Well see, that's the thing. For me, my faith leads me to believe there is hope in an afterlife based upon what the Bible teaches. It gives me great hope and certainly impacts and helps direct my life now.

Raymac

2011-03-18, 12:36 PM

Shove it? Because I have an opinion that differs from yours? :lol: Behave yourself

No, it's just that you cross the line into plain bigotry when you continue to insist that priests are just a bunch of child molestors despite being shown evidence that it is at a much lower rate than in the general population. Spewing insulting stereotypes is exactly what a bigot does, and thats what you continue to do.

Is 1 case too many? Sure. But we live in the real world where bad things happen and humans are flawed. Is it even worse that the Church tried to cover up the scandal? Absolutely. As a Catholic, I find it as shameful as anything the Church has ever done, but they are in the process of correcting that now...finally.

This isn't a matter of just having different opinions, it's a matter of repeating insulting stereotypes.

Rbstr

2011-03-18, 11:37 PM

To sum my "life stance" in a word I'm Humanist.
Kurt Vonnegut summed the philosophy up best in two quotes (and really, reading a number of his books, he probably is the thing that finally tipped the scales to atheism for me. Even if you don't care for the philosophy I'd recommend reading, at least, Slaughter House 5) :
I am a humanist, which means, in part, that I have tried to behave decently without any expectation of rewards or punishments after I'm dead. and
How do humanists feel about Jesus? I say of Jesus, as all humanists do. 'If what he said is good, and so much of it is absolutely beautiful, what does it matter if he was God or not?'
But if Christ hadn't delivered the Sermon on the Mount, with its message of mercy and pity, I wouldn't want to be a human being.
I'd just as soon be a rattlesnake.

JayC you have a very similar opinion to mine overall...I find the supernatural bits of religion to be something we would be better off without. I find religion to have inspired much of what is the worst of the human condition.
The thing is you are so confrontational and, seemingly, angry about it you miss the point and become nonconstructive: The actions we pursue should be for the betterment of people, not making them angry and defensive.

JayC

2011-03-21, 11:35 AM

Raymac I am not insisting that all priests are like that, I just believe that something more should be done about the ones that do because as it is, they are in a position of higher authority to Catholic people and are in a state of trust. If that trust is broken so severely, there should be a punishment. This is exactly what you are saying so I won't go on as it would be repeating what you have already said and which I agree with.

Rbstr, you are right, looking at the conversation I do appear to be "confrontational" at times and that is my own character flaw, I apologise for that but I wasn't angry at all times. Perhaps angry at the wrong doings by the priests in question but in some parts I may have generalised, especially the first part when I called people fools, something I am against myself and I'm disappointed that I resorted to such insults.

At the end of the day, we're all after spiritual insight. Be it through God or your own personal findings