MAX Balance

[Peacemaker]

Ok. I know a lot of you are probably going to say there is no problem, but either

A. You don't play the game anymore

or... Drum roll please....

B. You're fooling your self

While I think the NC vs the TR max are respectively balanced I do not see a balance with them vs the VS maxs. I speak mostly of special ability but its a bit deeper than that. Lets look at special ability first.

TR - Lock Down, Prevents movements, makes you a deci magnet, easy target. The NC love a MAX who is foolish enough to lock down as not only are you ripe for Decis but Phoenix as well. There is a very limited number of situations where locking down does not get you killed rather quickly. Mostly, its usefull against one or two hostiles. The DPS increase only brings it slightly over the others. Same goes for the ROF Booster. Its short lived and easily countered. HIDE. Removing Third Person might help the TR MAX but it still is a deci magnet, and the best way to not get killed by it is not attack it without decis.

NC - Shield, No down side to shields. You can still fire (I think), you can still move, you still lock targets. The only thing I can think that would balance this out would be disable firing, and continue to disable it after the shield is down. IT NEEDS A DOWN SIDE.

VS - Jump jets, ABSOLUTELY NO DOWN SIDE. VS maxs can use their jump jets to get to places unobtainable by infantry without aircraft, they can use them to dodge damage indoors and out doors, they can still fire, they can still lock. Bunny hopping on the ceiling of a stair well with lag is just stupid powerful. Where is the balance?

Now look at some specifics.

AA/ AV Max vs Infantry with empire specific AV weapons -

The Terran AA max does absolutely jack shit to infantry. Only a direct hit will hurt them and even then does very low damage. The accuracy is garbage which means you wont hit them, and the DPS is crap unless your locked down. Now if your locked down, you cant move and the target and use cover to beat you no problem. The Pounder max while a bit better than the Burster against infantry is still crap. It can only bounce grenades around corners.

The VS and NC AA / AV MAXs on the other hand can easily own an infantry man who doesn't have a decimator. (VS Even with them as they can dodge with the jump jets) UM HELLO!? Why do both of these do better than the TR? The VS AV is crazy with its burn time. None of them have projectile arcs, none of them are hard to use.

Lastly lets look at AA balance. The VS and NC AA weapons are area denial platforms. Put X number of AA in an area and theres no way to get near them without eating dirt in an aircraft. Put 10 bursters in one spot and 4 skilled pilots can take them out. Bursters shoot at you and you *GASP* TURN!!!!! Now your not getting shot. It also requires some amount of skill to lead a target, but good luck doing enough damage to kill it before it runs away. The only targets I see bursters take down are HOVERING AIRCRAFT, or people who just get unlucky.

NC and VS AA are stupidly more powerful than the TR counter-part. AND NO I DONT CARE HOW MANY AIRCRAFT GET AWAY FROM YOU. There is no chance for an aircraft to get away if he makes one mistake, against a burster you could screw up three times and still make it. I must also address the retarded range some of these projectiles have. Hitting targets more than an SOI and a half away from them (Especially the NC max whom can get 4 missiles off on a wasp and get a kill if he doesn't have 100% afterburner)

Please, make your arguments. I'm arguing for either a massive change to the TR max's to put them on Par with the others, or a big ass Nerf to bring them down to TR MAX levels. TR Works well on paper, VS / NC just work.

[Rbstr]

I don't know why people insist on arguing current game balance in the PSN discussion forum.

How should a new game construct max combat so this perceived problem doesn't exist?

[Bags]

You see the scat max as balanced?

And burster is fine... L2P. Not as easy as starfire, but it's as potent.

[Hamma]

Moved this thread to PS discussion.

[Peacemaker]

Hmmm maybe I shoulda written something about PS:N into that huh?

[Lonehunter]

I'm still reading the rest, but I think the NC MAX bubble goes down when you fire, and comes back up when you stop.

[The Desert Fox]

Lol I just went on a rant on the PS forums because someone started a thread about how the starfire is too nerfed and needs a good buff. I posted my normal encounter with one:

**** NO. **** NO. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! I hate the ***king starfire as it is. I am so god damn tired of trying to fight the vanu and when I get within a mile of a tower or base I get:


MISSLE LOCK MISSLE LOCK MISSLE LOCK OMGWT*BBQ MISSLE LOCK 12 DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS RUN RUN RUN

ME: WT* WT* WT* WT*, Afterburner, Tree, Wall, Mountain! GO GO GO

(missle lock stops after getting 12 miles away)

Me :whew that was close

BOOM BOOM BANG BANG PHEW PHEW EXPLOSION.

[Robert089]

Yeah you failed to mention the Scatter MAX and how insanely over powered it is.

The fact the NC and VS MAX abilities allow them to absorb / dodge decimator shots is enough to put balance out of whack, and then of course there is the fact that TR MAXes need to lock down in order to compete. The overcharge ability was a nice surprise when I resubbed, however it still doesn't give us the ability to dodge shots and gives us a bright red "SHOOT ME" bubble.

[The Desert Fox]

Lol I learned real quick in the TR AI MAX that Locking down is a horrible waste of time, instead you hide around a corner, when the infantry come you overcharge and personal shield, kill 1 or 2 them RUN THE FUCK AWAY.

[Azellon]

So odd to see TR MAX pilots complaining.

I've never had trouble rolling infantry with any TR MAX types, and I've got more kills in a Burster than a Starfire. You have to learn to lead which isn't difficult at all and enemy pilots have no warning until your shots start hitting them. Since I don't ever play NC I can't speak to them, but I know VS MAXes aren't any stronger, they just play different.

Gonna agree with Bags here.

[The Desert Fox]

I don't disagree with Bags, all I am saying is it just seems like against a burster you can usually get away if your fast enough, and with the NC and VR counterparts you can't get within 5 miles of a SOI without have 15 missile locks from every fucking tree or mountain in the area. I wish we had SOME way to counter the missile lock, even a little.

When it comes to infantry, I really have no problem with our AI MAX, I get plenty of kills with it, it just seems like our "lock Down" ability is really useless 99% of the time cause everyone and there brother has AV cert so the second we start shooting they get behind something, pull a deci, and were hit 2-3 times before we can even move.

Looking at our ability as an "advantage" is kinda a joke.

[Raymac]

Balance balance balance. Cry cry cry. Over the years, I think the large changes they made to the TR maxes were needed (flipping AI/AV, adding Overdrive, etc) but now everything is close enough. Let me repeat that, the balance is good enough.

Every mmo out there has a whole army of people obsessed with balance. There's always pros and cons, but it seems any differences are blown way out of proportion. "Perfect" balance is impossible unless you just give everyone exactly the same stuff. Even then, people will cry about certain weapons being more effective than others which makes them "broken".

IMHO, the balance is just fine in PS. For PS:N, they will no doubt have to play around with the balance just like every other game, but over time it will get close enough.

[Azellon]

tbh, when it comes to balance I genuinely think TR have it real good. Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.

When this happens, I humbly suggest that you're doing it wrong. The TR MAX (every iteration) is very, very clearly designed as a defensive powerhouse. TR can move in to a position and hold that position indefinitely. Yes, they're a bit weak on the offense because they can't advance and fire at full strength like the other MAXes, but their defensive strength more than makes up for it. Experienced CRs and Platoon Leaders know how to use this strength for an offensive advantage, moving in to an area and setting up in a defensive formation, clearing a path forward for the rest with heavy covering fire and then picking up and moving again. I've watched TR use this tactic over and over again and it always works because that's what TR are good at. NC and VS have to get lucky to break a good TR defense.

Defensively, the TR MAX ability is godlike.

[The Desert Fox]

Balance balance balance. Cry cry cry. Over the years, I think the large changes they made to the TR maxes were needed (flipping AI/AV, adding Overdrive, etc) but now everything is close enough. Let me repeat that, the balance is good enough.

Every mmo out there has a whole army of people obsessed with balance. There's always pros and cons, but it seems any differences are blown way out of proportion. "Perfect" balance is impossible unless you just give everyone exactly the same stuff. Even then, people will cry about certain weapons being more effective than others which makes them "broken".

IMHO, the balance is just fine in PS. For PS:N, they will no doubt have to play around with the balance just like every other game, but over time it will get close enough.

For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2. Every damn time I try to get into a fight the very second I see a missile lock, I hit the afterburner and hide behind anything I can find as I am running, and don't give me that "get better, L2P" bullshit. I am not saying I am great at it but it's ridicules that not matter what I do, In a Reaver I am almost guaranteed to lose half my health to a missile lock that had me for maybe 3-4 seconds. 2 nights ago me and a buddy were fighting the Vanu on Hossin. We would fly Reavers from Bitol to Voltan. Before we even hit the shoreline or saw the fight we had to fire off as much as we could and turn tail fast, because we would get missile locks from 3 different directions, Every single run we made no matter what direction we came from we got off maybe 10-12 rockets, and received 40-70% damage every time. This is when the majority of the fight was already in Voltan CY. This is from some Vanu Maxs flying atop some trees or a fucking mountain. and we can't even get a look before we had to run.
/endrant

Sorry about that, I am all about balance, at the same time wev had technology for awhile now that can dodge locked on missiles with flares or something. Why they decided we couldn't use something like that, even if it was only a missile or 2 is beyond me.

[The Desert Fox]

tbh, when it comes to balance I genuinely think TR have it real good. Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.
Let me ask, when I am guarding a tower or even a hallway, or in the CY. What am I supposed to get behind? If I were an infantryman, I see a TR max I hit him with a deci, and I see he is disengaging to run, I then follow him and shoot him in the back while he attempts to "get behind something". This is a 1v1 situation, what about a fireteam with Decis? Hes dead before he disengages.

When this happens, I humbly suggest that you're doing it wrong. The TR MAX (every iteration) is very, very clearly designed as a defensive powerhouse. TR can move in to a position and hold that position indefinitely.

I just don't see that, I see how they were DESIGNED to be that way, but in a war where one side has a lot more tanks then the other side, doesn't mean they have much of an advantage if the other side's infantry all have Javelin Missile Systems.

Yes, they're a bit weak on the offense because they can't advance and fire at full strength like the other MAXes, but their defensive strength more than makes up for it. Experienced CRs and Platoon Leaders know how to use this strength for an offensive advantage, moving in to an area and setting up in a defensive formation, clearing a path forward for the rest with heavy covering fire and then picking up and moving again. I've watched TR use this tactic over and over again and it always works because that's what TR are good at. NC and VS have to get lucky to break a good TR defense.

I have never doubted the TR's offensive ability, IMO the TR maxes are BETTER on the offensive because of our overcharge thing. That's not the complain here. The problem is supposed special ability to lock down is really useless compared to the NC shield or the Vanu jumpjets. There ability have real, practical use, especially in combating AV.

Defensively, the TR MAX ability is godlike.
As I said before, 8 years ago at the start of the war I couldn't agree more, but now that everyone and their brother has some sort of AV. It has become more of a liability then an advantage despite the increased firepower, whilst the Vanu and NC keep their advantage.

[Raymac]

For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2. Every damn time I try to get into a fight the very second I see a missile lock, I hit the afterburner and hide behind anything I can find as I am running, and don't give me that "get better, L2P" bullshit.

I know. I freakin hate when people play that L2P card. It's childish at best. I feel your pain when it comes to AA maxes since I'm a big fan of flying too (thanks Top Gun). But when there is alot of AA in an area, it should be hard for us flyboys to get in there.

I believe that AA should trump air, especially reavers. If it's a single AA max, you know you can find different angles of attack to take him out, or at least make him run and hide. But if the enemy has several AA in the area, and they are working together, all we can do is try to chip away at them with multiple attacks, or use a different vehicle/weapon.

I think thats the way it should be, because when they don't have AA, we reaver pilots are the hell bringers.

[Peacemaker]

Thats my point though. Its incredibly easier to attack TR positions with a large number of burster MAXs from the air than it is to do so against the VS/ NC. For shits n giggles I logged on and played VANU last night. Just played with the MAXs for the most part to find weaknesses I could exploit.

Really though, my whole issue is that the NC and VS maxs ESPECIALLY the AA ones can sit well outside of infantry AV range (Especially vs the TRs short ranged striker, It was considerably harder vs the NC with their phnx) and spam aircraft death. I had no trouble racking up 40 kills and 10 deaths. Try that in a burster, solo.

My second issue which is actually the most important is that the VS jump jets beat out the NC shield, and the NC shield beats out the TR lock down. The special abilities are horribly unbalanced. Yes, lock down is nice but its only nice in 25% of situations. Jump jets and shields are usable 99% of the time.

[DviddLeff]

With MAX armour I wonder what it would be like if they took damage like infantry rather than as they currently do.

I love the differences between them; the overdrive feature was needed for TR but now its here the special abilities seem balanced enough.

Some of the weapons leave a lot to be desired, but none of them are overpowered in my eyes.

[Azellon]

If you like Vanu or NC and believe they're better....roll Vanu or NC. We certainly need the help, since TR always has at least 10% pop advantage on us whenever I log in. Only once have I seen VS without an XP boost due to low pop, and then it was NC with the low pop.

Obviously, someone on your team does not share your opinion.

The more I look at what you're saying combined with population figures and continents controlled, this sounds less like a legitimate complaint and more like the view from the top. You like being unbeatable and you're whining because there's still one area left where you're not.

[Traak]

For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2.

I disagree. One on one, it is extremely rare for a VS or NC, especially, AAMAX to down a plane, even a mosquito.

Sure, they are effective in groups. So are groups of mosquitos against a single AAMAX.

I don't often get kills in my VS AAMAX. All too often, the stupidly nerfed reload slowness from Frozenmolasseslandia makes me a spectator to yet another pilot flitting away, laughing over his shoulder.

The VS AAMAX needs an instant reload start, just like the others. It was un-nerfed a few days ago, then they slapped the nerf on it now that is worse than before.

Most of AAMAXing in VS is watching enemy pilots flit away while your MAX takes its goooooooooood sweeeeeeeeeeet tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiime reloooooooooooooadinnnnnnnnnnnnnng.

[The Desert Fox]

If you like Vanu or NC and believe they're better....roll Vanu or NC. We certainly need the help, since TR always has at least 10% pop advantage on us whenever I log in. Only once have I seen VS without an XP boost due to low pop, and then it was NC with the low pop.

Obviously, someone on your team does not share your opinion.

The more I look at what you're saying combined with population figures and continents controlled, this sounds less like a legitimate complaint and more like the view from the top. You like being unbeatable and you're whining because there's still one area left where you're not.

Don't talk to me about populations or who's better I been playing NC since the game came out from 03-05 and 07-08. Only when I re subbed did I for the first time play TR, and the only reason I did was I wanted to be in a real Outfit. I'v been in the army for over 2 years now and I wanted to be in an outfit that cared and wanted to be tactical. The NC just don't really have that, they did, but I don't see it. Also IMHO about 60% of the TR are complete morons, I hate fighting with the zerg they never listen or do anything that remotely makes sense. The only reason we get anything done is we have several outfits that actually care about continents and caves, every time I log on I see about half the NC doing a power tower in the middle of a fight between us and the Vanu so don't act like you guys just try so hard.

Once again let me repeat myself, I don't think the Vanu or the NC are better,nor do I like them, just not my color, my only complaint is how unbelievably frustrating their AA maxes are. If you want maybe the CR5's can do a trade, you can have like half our zerg, I am sure we will still do just as good and I would love the XP bonus.

[Bags]

. I had no trouble racking up 40 kills and 10 deaths. Try that in a burster, solo.


I'd love to except for the fact that everyone and their mom has AA max certed, not to mention AA wall turrets and cereb turrets. I miss the old days when only NFIC had burster certed on TR :(

[Azellon]

Just because I was bored I logged on my VS and TR characters and tested it in the shooting range.

For the record, the Burster took an unshielded Mos down in 14 shots. Reaver took 20. Burster has a clip of 40. You can miss the shot and still hit the target with the Burster because the area of effect is truly huge.

By comparison, it took 6 shots in the Starfire. The Reaver took all 8 shots in the clip. Any larger air vehicle would be just fine while the Starfire took its sweet ass time reloading, and if you miss (which is still quite possible) you're screwed.

The clamp feature of the TR makes it happen so much faster, and there's very little reason not to in a AA MAX on defense.

Basically the TR MAX can take out two Reavers on its own on one clip. Starfire's lucky to get one.

Please complain more about how hard you've got it.

[The Desert Fox]

Just because I was bored I logged on my VS and TR characters and tested it in the shooting range.



AWW SERIOUSLY?? I have been doing it all wrong, I need to get all my kills in the shooting range! All this time I was doing all of this "in the field" where targets like, move and shit.

I get your point but your still not getting mine, Our AA Max is good when you catch them off guard or without afterburners, the NC and Vanu max is good as long as your not a moron.

Test your little theory in the field with each max then come talk please.

[Bags]

Our AA max is always good. Sorry that you're not good at it. Making it any better would be laughable.

[Baneblade]

NC MAX shield drops when the MAX is firing. It is also never at full strength since it depletes just by being on.

[The Desert Fox]

Our AA max is always good. Sorry that you're not good at it. Making it any better would be laughable.

it's okay Bags, considering I have never, nor will I ever use our AA max I am sure it's great. My problem is with the VS NC unbelievable lock on ability. What I want you to do for me is next time you post, make sure you include a story of your awesomeness. I need inspiration for when I use our AA max. So please enlighten me buddy:groovy:

[Baneblade]

The psychological effect of the Starfire and Sparrow is worse than the actual effect.

[Traak]

The psychological effect of the Starfire and Sparrow is worse than the actual effect.

Yes, the "beep and scram" effect.

[Azellon]

The psychological effect of the Starfire and Sparrow is worse than the actual effect.

This.

I've used both the VS and the TR AA MAX in the field on many, many occasions. I like both. The TR MAX is better at shooting things out of the sky on its own. The VS is better the more there are out in the field. When it comes to getting kills with the VS MAX is comes down to luck. You have to have the other MAXes focusing on your target and you have to be the last one to land a hit. With the TR MAX you just have to not shoot in the opposite direction, since the blast radius is so ridiculously huge.

The fact that you don't use AA MAXes (your own admission) underscores your ignorance of this issue. Learn to use the weapons you're trying to talk about first.

[Robert089]

Honestly I think the Burster is fine, I mean the Striker is probably the best empire specific anti air so we have those to back up our MAX units. The Striker also has the "psychological effect" that the Sparrow and Starfire have.

As many others and myself have stated before the problem is with the abilities. There are VS MAX units hopping up and down like rabbits in generator rooms and stairwells while our MAXes either sit in one spot or paint themselves with a massive target.

[The Desert Fox]

The fact that you don't use AA MAXes (your own admission) underscores your ignorance of this issue. Learn to use the weapons you're trying to talk about first.
Your going to accuse me of being ignorant? Really? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If SOMEONE would please go back and look and my posts, I didn't even start in this thread with our MAX units, my original argument was of the frustration of the missile lock of the vanu and NC. You azellion then changed the topic to the AI maxes and I actually somewhat agreed with you. Then you insulted me, and when I picked apart your entire arguement about how "amazing" the TR AI maxes(for the record I have had the AI cert since day 1 and I love it, my complaint was never that our suck, just that about "ability" is kind of a joke nowadays) are you changed the topic again with me to "if I like the them so much why don't I join em cause Waa, Waa we don't have pop". I then countered your little pity me story, so you again change it up with how "in the shooting range, your AA max is waaaay better then everyone else's". I believe after even you realized how stupid that argument sounds you go back to how much better the TR AA maxes are and the NC and vanu require luck with their lock on ability.

the fact that you can't even defend half the points you are trying to make(at your own admission with your constant changing) completely proves your ignorance of this issue. Learn to read peoples posts before calling them ignorant.

And traak and sobeokus, I completely agree but just because it's a big psychological weapons doesn't mean it's not still a big one.

[Azellon]

Blah blah please allow me to prove that I can't follow my own arguments kthx.

And I think you did a fine job.

The OP made MAXes the topic with his post. My initial reply was directed to him. My next reply was also not directly pointed at you, but you decided to take exception to something I said and get your panties in a twist. I'm going to guess it was the part about "you're doing it wrong" though to be honest, I stand by my statement. If you are dying that easily as a TR MAX, you are indeed doing it wrong or you're simply up against too many enemies and would be dying no matter what MAX you're in. You claim I changed the topic and in so doing have demonstrated that you missed the point: The thread is about MAXes. Not one type of MAX.

That said, since you want so desperately for me to address all of the fine points you made, let's have a go.


Let me ask, when I am guarding a tower or even a hallway, or in the CY. What am I supposed to get behind? If I were an infantryman, I see a TR max I hit him with a deci, and I see he is disengaging to run, I then follow him and shoot him in the back while he attempts to "get behind something". This is a 1v1 situation, what about a fireteam with Decis? Hes dead before he disengages.

The best way to fight a guy with a Deci is to get in his face. Rockets have a splashback. If he follows you, stand right on the other side of the door/tree/whatever and shoot him when he comes through. He'll kill himself if you don't do it for him. If he's too far away, go elsewhere. If you're anchoring in the open with no cover and no fire support, you're an idiot and you deserve what's about to happen.

I just don't see that, I see how they were DESIGNED to be that way, but in a war where one side has a lot more tanks then the other side, doesn't mean they have much of an advantage if the other side's infantry all have Javelin Missile Systems.

The TR have the equivalent to the Javelin, a lock-on fire-and-forget iirc. You want to take that out? Please do, it would increase my lifespan against TR in the field. The NC Phoenix is an even bigger pain, being camera-guided. Nothing sucks more than getting shot from behind a wall and there's not a damn thing you can do.

I have never doubted the TR's offensive ability, IMO the TR maxes are BETTER on the offensive because of our overcharge thing. That's not the complain here. The problem is supposed special ability to lock down is really useless compared to the NC shield or the Vanu jumpjets. There ability have real, practical use, especially in combating AV.

You get TWO special abilities, one useful for defense and one for offense, and you're saying in this very paragraph that one of them is the bee's knees. NC and VS get one special ability that has to suffice both on defense and offense. While I agree that VS hopping to avoid getting shot is kind of lame, the MAX capacitor is small and recharges too slowly to be effective in heavy combat. Any perceived advantage is vastly smaller than it appears to be.

You've stated that your sole complaint is that NC and VS MAXes are frustrating. Well yeah, getting shot at tends to be kind of frustrating. Knowing that you're getting shot at before you're hit is bound to be slightly more frustrating, since you have warning and now you only have to wait for the pain to begin. But you're calling for nerfing the NC and VS MAXes by giving air vehicles a way to dodge a weapon's lock. As has been demonstrated, it requires more shots per clip size to get a kill than for the (supposedly) equivalent TR MAX. If even ONE misses, in many cases, VS and NC have no chance since opposing pilots can just turn around and fly away while VS and NC MAXes are stuck reloading. TR MAXes don't give you a nifty little warning, the pain starts suddenly and if the MAX was smart enough to anchor or hit their overcharge (again, TWO special abilities) you're probably most of the way to dead before you can react.

Yeah, the warning you get that I'm gonna start shooting at you is such a pain in the ass. Let's get rid of the noise weapon's lock makes.

[Peacemaker]

So, as if to prove a point outfit mates were playing VS tonight. I joined in and got into a AI max. WOW. I never got the opportunity to use that thing in a good fight, all I can say is that it is INSANE. Ive used DC max for a Looooong time. Never before had it been so easy for me to just mow people down. I'm sorry but that thing is insane when put next to a DC max. If anyone was at the solsar tech plant fight tonight on either side please let me know. I litterly got 20 kills in 5 minutes with little or no trouble. Aim, pull trigger, dead.

Also I escaped the base several times in AA config and had no problems scoring kills on several aircraft each time. This is in the middle of a red alert siege. Try to escape in a burster max... its not happening. Like i said in my first post. If you think these things are balanced at all, your fooling your self. Ima play uni max on all 3 empires for a few days at a time, take down my K:D and average them out. So far (and my mates agree) it seems like Vanu are almost skillless to play. Pulsar was omg awesome btw. I aint never shootin a cycler again if I don't have to.

[The Desert Fox]

Blah Blah Blah, your right Fox I am an ignorant moron.

Why thank you Azellon finally we can agree on something. Now let us begin. At no point did I say I was dying as a TR max, once again go back and look I love my max, I only pointed out that our lock down ability is inferior to the NC and VS ability's when it comes to being an "advantage".

The best way to fight a guy with a Deci is to get in his face.

Yeah you're a sitting duck if you come across someone who is quicker with their Deci than you are with disengaging your anchors and getting behind something, but if you're quick that doesn't happen all that often unless there's nothing to get behind.

tsk tsk tsk azellon, contradicting yourself again, so what SHOULD I DO? I agree that the best way to fight a Deci is to rush him, but you yourself said a good max is quick enough to get behind something. hhhhmmmm...

The TR have the equivalent to the Javelin, a lock-on fire-and-forget iirc. You want to take that out? Please do, it would increase my lifespan against TR in the field. The NC Phoenix is an even bigger pain, being camera-guided. Nothing sucks more than getting shot from behind a wall and there's not a damn thing you can do.

Haha this comment is awesome, really shows you either have no idea what I meant by what I said, or you have no real reply to it. I have no desire to remove AV from the game, I think it all fits perfectly, but when when they put it all in I don't they planned for it being 8 years later and 90% of the pop certified some sort of AV. I'v been in the army for over 2 years now, and I am lucky enough to be the Certified Javelin gunner for my platoon. So out of about 40 soldiers, I am the only one who knows how to use it. Means armor can still do work on a platoon of infantry but guys like me are designed to help combat it. Now if all 40 of us Carried Javelins, well that would really make any sort of armor useless in any fight wouldn't it?

You get TWO special abilities, one useful for defense and one for offense, and you're saying in this very paragraph that one of them is the bee's knees. NC and VS get one special ability that has to suffice both on defense and offense. While I agree that VS hopping to avoid getting shot is kind of lame, the MAX capacitor is small and recharges too slowly to be effective in heavy combat. Any perceived advantage is vastly smaller than it appears to be.

Okay, I will give you this one, we do have 2, and I love 1 of them, but it's just like you said, any perceived advantage is a lot smaller then the disadvantage of being completely immobile. YOU WIN THIS ONE TREBECK!

As has been demonstrated, it requires more shots per clip size to get a kill than for the (supposedly) equivalent TR MAX. If even ONE misses, in many cases, VS and NC have no chance since opposing pilots can just turn around and fly away while VS and NC MAXes are stuck reloading. TR MAXes don't give you a nifty little warning, the pain starts suddenly and if the MAX was smart enough to anchor or hit their overcharge (again, TWO special abilities) you're probably most of the way to dead before you can react.

Okay, you can't look at the missile as a warning, it's more of a "Your Fucked, Goodbye" then anything else, just cause we know our death is coming a few seconds earlier don't mean anything lol. While yes our flak doesn't give a warning I still don't believe it's a more liable means of anti-air. Our lock-down ability is the only way we have even a chance of killing something and if the pilot has any idea where hes at, he can jet over us within a second and were boned cause even your aiming is extremely limited while locked-down.as opposed to a VS or NC max who all he has to do is keep eyes on target long enough, and I have seen missiles follow me for what seems like forever through trees and mountains and shit only to STILL get blown to shit.

Yeah, the warning you get that I'm gonna start shooting at you is such a pain in the ass. Let's get rid of the noise weapon's lock makes.


I propose a trade, You can have our flak weapons and we will take your noisy lock-on missiles. I am serious here, I KNOW the majority of the TR agree with me, we would love some of those, and if our Flak is as good as you say it is then we haven't figured out how to use it properly and I am sure the majority of the VS agree with you. You can teach them. Deal?

[Effective]

Planetside as a whole is pretty broken. Balance is screwed up. The bases are narrow hallways with lots of choke points which do nothing but encourage spam. There's no cover outdoors for infantry to utilize against vehicles.
Silly base benefits like interlink that make defense way to powerful in PS.

The introduction of br40 has further showed what happens when something unbalanced (broken/poorly implemented) is used in mass.

In particular with max units. Every max in the game (including AA/AV) has a faster ttk than a rexo wielding decis. Max units as a whole may not be really powerful offensively (when pushing a active enemy base). But on defense they're extremely powerful.

It's some simple fixes really.

If someone doesn't like my idea(s), quote the parts you don't like and give constructive reasons on why they are bad. I'm not going to bother responding to someone who can't put out a constructive argument.

Add cover to outdoors. Remove the interlink benefit. Make bases less crowded and cramped, less choke points. Reduce the amount of cert points to a br20-23 level. Increase the cert costs on various certs (CE=3, SA=4, etc).

Keep in mind that EVERYTHING in PS is connected, like a huge web/net. When 1 thing is nerfed, something is inevitably made more powerful.

For example. The removal of third person is a slippery slope, if you remove third person, sure it'll be harder to corner camp, but NC will still be favored, since they just have to wait at a corner looking at the spot where the enemy is going to come in from, then charge out the moment they see something. This also applies to maxs. Not to mention cloakers with boomers will have a field day if TP was removed. I'm not saying I'm against third person removal, I'm just saying that if you do, make sure you figure out how to balance everything out related to it's use, first.


Make the max a suit with inter-changeable weapons. You can cert either AA (2 points) or AV (3 points) max first, but you must have 1 of them to cert AI max (2 points) OR you must have both AA/AV certed to cert AI max (1 point). This prevents maxs from being able to abuse the issue with a max being able to rotate between max armors to reset it's armor back to 650 and it effectively prevents players from just coming back to the fight in another max right after they've died. With the max armors being combined into 1 suit, reducing the timer on the max also becomes a viable option.

Reduce the effectiveness of AA/AV max units to infantry.

Bring the scatmax inline with other AI maxs. In comparison it's way to strong.

Make it so max units cannot use special abilities while auto running, which yes, means that VS max units won't be able to jumpjet while auto-running, and NC maxs can't use their shields. This brings the a bit more inline with TR maxs, who's special ability can't be used to increase survival while auto-running

Make it so max units can't shoot while using their abilities (this obviously wouldn't apply to TR maxs, as their ability is to shoot faster). VS maxs wouldn't be able to fire while jump jetting (but they could still fire on the way down, since they're no longer using that ability). - This particular idea I'm not 100% sure, it's an idea I've simply toyed with for a little bit, contemplating whether or not it'd truely be balanced.

Make it so max units cannot use personal shield (I'm more in actual favor of the complete and utter removal of pshield from planetside, but that's a different topic for a different day). Maxs already have 650 armor points, they don't need more.

Buff the AV max to do less self-damage (regardless of whether or not damage to infantry is reduced). Any person who uses a max constantly knows that if they get into an unavoidable fight with the AV max, the best thing to do is to get as close as possible and try to get the splash to kill the max, though this works best with NC max units. Doing this prevents said max from having any chance at another encouter like that, because he/she will suicide on the enemy max.
OR
Add a specific anti-max (AM) max (no explosive weapons just armor piercing rounds, think an AI max with AP rounds) to planetside. The last part gave me some thought, AV maxs aren't perfect since they can kill themselves depending on the scenario, so what if there was another alternative? A specific AM max could do what an AV max couldn't since, it could go toe to toe with more maxs in a row without having to worry about suiciding. However, I'm against giving the AI max AP rounds for 1 reason, and that'd be because it'd be to versatile.

On the note of the AV max, make them decent at there role Anti-Vehicle. The only AV max that's good at that role is the pounder max. The comet's projectiles are to slow, and the clip is to small for it to really be effective at AV, it is however a great Anti-Max max.

Make it so medical terminals can no longer repair armor, which means you have to rely on teammates to repair your armor as a max. With the removal of armor repair, med terms could heal stamina instead.

Give the decimator 1 extra round. This gives a single decimator a chance to actually kill an NC max with shields (keep in mind 4 deci shots can kill a pshielding fully shielded NC max IF you hit every shot into the max, rather then just splash him)

Finding a way to prevent maxs from autorunning into a wall so they cant instantly move forward at full speed when they leave the corner. The exact way to accomplish this is an unknown to me, other then "hitting the wall stops a max auto run". I don't particularly like that idea, there's probably more then a few ways to better balance it out.

Making a auto run capacitor that functions like the special max ability, but obviously on a different capacitor (maybe even have it set to where you can use your ability capacitor to double the length of your auto run if you use it all, def. NOT the otherway around though, twice as long max abilities? pass), I haven't thought up the exact distance for which the maxs capacitor would last (I'd say have it be a longer distance from tower to base, so that way max crashing is still a viable strategy), exact capacitor charge time would need to be discussed to, have it be the exact same as the max ability capacitor maybe? - Just another random idea I threw out there, not really needed for overall implementation. (Also, instead of an extra capacitor, it could use stamina instead).

Either nerf AP jackhammer or lancer, or buff the decimator so it's ttk is either the same or faster (I don't care which) then them. It's rather silly that the decimators (very specific anti-max weaponry, as it's to slow to be used anything but stationary/vehicles that are close, and even then due to the tiny clip size it wouldn't ultimately be useful) have a slower ttk then a AP JH/lancer. Though this might mean that the AP JH needs to be nerfed, though I don't think the lancer needs a nerf. - Also not 100% sure on this, there's probably a better way that I haven't thought of.

[Azellon]

*hot air*

I knew I was wasting my time, which is why I hadn't responded in the first place.

Decent troll sir. 5/10.

[The Desert Fox]

Something stupid.

VICTORY!!! Twas a hard fought battle, with an almost worthy adversary :D Good Fight Sir, Good Fight.

In all honesty depending on your response to mine, I was ready to do the same. It's obvious neither of us are going to budge despite both our best efforts.

Better then some troll, 4/10

[Peacemaker]

So I just ran into a scat max in a DC max in a hallway. How come he out DPSed me and killed me, when I used my DPS boost? Broken much?

[Baneblade]

Scat does the most dmg of any MAX nose to nose.

[Peacemaker]

And that makes me think the balance is broken. The DC gets a DPS boost and it STILL Does not do the best DPS. Huh? Does no one else consider this ass backwards?

[Baneblade]

I think it has more to do with the TR being longer range in general than NC. The Scat MAX has to be in your face to be its most effective. The DC can sit on one end of a hall and still be 100%.

[Peacemaker]

True, but that just makes the DC an easier deci target. It still is borked. Also, because of the cof it does worse. The COF on the quasar is better than the DC.

[Baneblade]

I don't think MAXes should be in PSN personally.

[Jamini]

So I just ran into a scat max in a DC max in a hallway. How come he out DPSed me and killed me, when I used my DPS boost? Broken much?

That's because you have triple his range (and nearly quintuple his EFFECTIVE range). As a guy with a max user on each empire, I honestly suggest sticking to the pounder unless it's on cooldown. Provided you can lead, aim, and predict cornerhumpers, it's one of the best indoor setups you can have.


For the record my complaint is not necessarily the balance of the MAX's, mine was simply to give us fly boys something, ANYTHING to combat a missile lock, even if it's just for a second or 2. Every damn time I try to get into a fight the very second I see a missile lock, I hit the afterburner and hide behind anything I can find as I am running, and don't give me that "get better, L2P" bullshit. I am not saying I am great at it but it's ridicules that not matter what I do, In a Reaver I am almost guaranteed to lose half my health to a missile lock that had me for maybe 3-4 seconds. 2 nights ago me and a buddy were fighting the Vanu on Hossin. We would fly Reavers from Bitol to Voltan. Before we even hit the shoreline or saw the fight we had to fire off as much as we could and turn tail fast, because we would get missile locks from 3 different directions, Every single run we made no matter what direction we came from we got off maybe 10-12 rockets, and received 40-70% damage every time. This is when the majority of the fight was already in Voltan CY. This is from some Vanu Maxs flying atop some trees or a fucking mountain. and we can't even get a look before we had to run.
/endrant


Also, I find it ironic that aircraft want a way to break a missile lock.

Do the infantry you farm with your rockets have a way to totally block your damage for two seconds? Or even hurt you reliably without spending 5s changing ammo types (if they even HAVE a rocklet rifle in inventory.) No, not really. No.

Do the maxes you lolspam have a means to protect themselves from your rocket pods (excepting the VS AA max)? No, not really. No.

Should you really be able to run away from your hard counter, when everyone else who gets that close to their hard counter dies a horrible, horrible death? (Re: Infiltrators VS darklight, Assault buggies VS mines, Maxes vs good AV users, Infantry VS vehicles, Generators VS Routers.)

Air is the most powerful part of this game. You don't need any more help. You need nerfs, big ones.

Stop bitchin'.

[Peacemaker]

Actually good sir you just about as wrong as you can be.

1. Rockets SUCK vs infantry. 2 Misses is all it takes and that rexo will still be walkin.
2. No other Anti vehicle weapon in the game is as effective at killing the target as AA weapons are.
3. Infantry caught in the open vs any sort of vehicle should be dead. Sorry that the reaver caught you all alone in the middle of a god damn field. But you should be dead.

Whys everyone hate on aircraft that kill them? Because *GASP* its a vehicle? I keep hearing how people bitch cause they get killed by a reaver even though they have their *insert AV weapon here*. WHEN is the last time that you went toe to toe with a lighting, sky guard, assault buggy, heavy tank, deli... what ever the hell else BY YOUR SELF and lived?

Just because it kills you doesn't mean its over powered. Its SUPPOSED TO. If you dont want to get killed by reavers get some AA in your squad. The argument for a Nerf on AA or a way to counter lock ons is that THERE IS NO WAY TO COUNTER THEM. If you get locked in a reaver and your in a bad spot you die. If you dont have 100% health and 100% shields you die. If you do manage to live some asshat in a mossie might hit you with 3 bullets and you.... *GASP* die. Being a dedicated pilot in this game gets you killed more often than anything else other than being a ground pounder in the middle of a base siege.

They are useful and effective only when the battle is outside the base, when there isn't OMG WTF AA present, when there isnt OMG WTF enemy air, when there isnt OMG WTF AV infantry. Otherwise you have to do hit and run attacks. There is no counter for AA in the game other than get lucky that the client side hit detection didnt screw you over. On the flip side theres a HUGE list of counters to aircraft. All pilots want is a way to counter the client side hit detection suckness of diving behind a hill and still getting hit by this magic missile that still tracks you an SOI and a half away.

You quit YOUR bitching and everyone get the fuck back on topic. This isnt about aircraft. Its about the fact that the MAX balance in this game is screwed up.

Jesus, you'd think this is the OFs from beta days.

:rant:

Also, on the range thing. Yes the DC has more range, but what good is range if you can only hit something once or twice before it ducks behind cover, and then if your unlucky enough it pulls out a deci or AV weapon and pwns you. AI maxs dont work at long range. They get raped. They only work in ranges about the distance of half a base wall. Even then the COF on the DC sucks. The Quasar does even better. My point still stands. The DC gets a DPS buff yet still does not do the best DPS. Why is this flawed? Because the DC special ability still does not bring it on par with the MAX that has a shield on top of its awsome DPS. And no, the scat max can do some damage at range too. One advantage and 2 Disadvantages does not = two advantages and one disadvantage. AI maxs work by doing so much damage that the enemy dies before he has time to react enough to kill you. Thats why you dont see AI max's running through fields shooting infantry. You see them in bases, in forests, and in towers. Range is not an advantage when the advantage isnt enough to let you kill the enemy before he finds cover.

[Jamini]

Actually good sir you just about as wrong as you can be.

1. Rockets SUCK vs infantry. 2 Misses is all it takes and that rexo will still be walkin.

-With no armor, no stamina, and no hope for escape. 1s later, once you reload, he's dead. If he's lucky he might put a single decimator up your tailpipe. Big whoop.

2. No other Anti vehicle weapon in the game is as effective at killing the target as AA weapons are.

-Then why does it take multiple AA maxes to deny airspace to enemy air? Oh right, because reavers outdamge them. Also reavers > AA for killing their intended target (light vehicles). Compared to av platforms, AA eqiupment does not measure up. At all.

3. Infantry caught in the open vs any sort of vehicle should be dead. Sorry that the reaver caught you all alone in the middle of a god damn field. But you should be dead.

-What about in the middle of my base? Surrounded by friendlies? Oh wait, he can swoop in, nab a kill, then afterburn off laughing.

Whys everyone hate on aircraft that kill them? Because *GASP* its a vehicle? I keep hearing how people bitch cause they get killed by a reaver even though they have their *insert AV weapon here*. WHEN is the last time that you went toe to toe with a lighting, sky guard, assault buggy, heavy tank, deli... what ever the hell else BY YOUR SELF and lived?

-Actually, I solo lightnings all the time as Maxes and Av. The rest of those are all multi-person vehicles. And yes, two infantry can kill a SG if they have proper cover. If you can get even a tiny hill between you and them, a single jammer nade = dead tank/SG/Enforcer.

Just because it kills you doesn't mean its over powered. Its SUPPOSED TO. If you dont want to get killed by reavers get some AA in your squad. The argument for a Nerf on AA or a way to counter lock ons is that THERE IS NO WAY TO COUNTER THEM. If you get locked in a reaver and your in a bad spot you die. If you dont have 100% health and 100% shields you die. If you do manage to live some asshat in a mossie might hit you with 3 bullets and you.... *GASP* die. Being a dedicated pilot in this game gets you killed more often than anything else other than being a ground pounder in the middle of a base siege.

-Except the fact that Reavers kill AA more effectivly than AA kills reavers.

They are useful and effective only when the battle is outside the base, when there isn't OMG WTF AA present, when there isnt OMG WTF enemy air, when there isnt OMG WTF AV infantry. Otherwise you have to do hit and run attacks. There is no counter for AA in the game other than get lucky that the client side hit detection didnt screw you over. On the flip side theres a HUGE list of counters to aircraft. All pilots want is a way to counter the client side hit detection suckness of diving behind a hill and still getting hit by this magic missile that still tracks you an SOI and a half away.

-No. There isn't a huge amount of counters to aircraft.

You have maxes, skyguards, and turrets. That's it. And if you don't have MORE AA than the enemy have air, then your gonna end up losing that AA fast.

You quit YOUR bitching and everyone get the fuck back on topic. This isnt about aircraft. Its about the fact that the MAX balance in this game is screwed up.

-Except it's not. If air is fine, maxes are fine. Especially if you consider that maxes have FAR FAR FAR more counters than air do.

Jesus, you'd think this is the OFs from beta days.

:rant:

Also, on the range thing. Yes the DC has more range, but what good is range if you can only hit something once or twice before it ducks behind cover, and then if your unlucky enough it pulls out a deci or AV weapon and pwns you. AI maxs dont work at long range. They get raped. They only work in ranges about the distance of half a base wall. Even then the COF on the DC sucks. The Quasar does even better. My point still stands. The DC gets a DPS buff yet still does not do the best DPS. Why is this flawed? Because the DC special ability still does not bring it on par with the MAX that has a shield on top of its awsome DPS. And no, the scat max can do some damage at range too. One advantage and 2 Disadvantages does not = two advantages and one disadvantage. AI maxs work by doing so much damage that the enemy dies before he has time to react enough to kill you. Thats why you dont see AI max's running through fields shooting infantry. You see them in bases, in forests, and in towers. Range is not an advantage when the advantage isnt enough to let you kill the enemy before he finds cover.

-That's why you set up in a hallway, with people behind and to your side. Or if you are sneaky, get behind them and lock down. Quite frankly, I find the TR maxes to be the most fun to play as well as likely the best. NC maxes have serious range issues (and the falcon does not fill it's intended role. It's a max killer and that's it.), and VS maxes are really only popular because the lasher isn't the best HA in the world.



Responses in RED.

I'd also like to mention that there are VAST numbers of people who have complained of air in the past. Many of them quit. I wouldn't be surprised if Air (specifically, the reaver) has caused more people to leave this game than biffers and gal gunships combined.

[Effective]

Lol at air having less counters then max units do.

Cerb turrets, Buffed AA turrets, Skyguards, any competent heavy vehicle gunner (with the exception of vehicles that fire slow moving projectiles), AA max, and other aircraft.

Max units have decimators, which isn't very good at anti-max, considering EVERY SINGLE MAX IN THE GAME (yes including AA maxs), has a faster TTK then a rexo with a decimator. And then you have AV maxs, which suck as a counter to maxs since in order to use it in a fashion to kill multiple max units you have to keep your distance from them so you dont suicide, but unfortunately that means exposing yourself in a fashion so that you're decimator/esav bait.

That being said, I do believe aircraft need a nerf, and it's a very simple nerf to. Aircraft can no longer fire below "x" speed, this could change from vehicle to vehicle, but it cuts out a pretty substantial portion of the complaints about aircraft, and then you can even remove cerb turrets and even buffed AA turrets from the game. (also nerf the reaver armor back to it's origional value).

[Raymac]

That being said, I do believe aircraft need a nerf, and it's a very simple nerf to. Aircraft can no longer fire below "x" speed, this could change from vehicle to vehicle, but it cuts out a pretty substantial portion of the complaints about aircraft, and then you can even remove cerb turrets and even buffed AA turrets from the game. (also nerf the reaver armor back to it's origional value).

I've thought about this nerf, and I don't like it for a few reasons.
1) It's not logical. Why an engineer would design a war vehicle that way just would make zero sense.
2) So now I can't track slow moving vehicles like an AMS or Flail? That just doesn't make any sense either.
3) Most importantly, hovering over a battlefield is aleady a death sentence. Try hovering over an active battlefield and just see how long you live. If there is no AA or AV in the area, then sure you can get away with it, but if there is no AA or AV, then shame on your enemy. The only time you can safely hover is when your empire has already taken the enemy's courtyard and you are camping a doorway, just like the tanks do. Thats it. Any other time you hover, you cannot escape AA.

I think a better nerf would be to severly gimp the low end acceleration. Right now, I can hit the afterburners from a dead stop and be across as SOI faster than you can say "PS:N Beta". This then would naturally encourage pilots to keep their speed up, without doing some over the top illogical nerf where they can't fire and are just a hovering doorstop.

[Peacemaker]

Ill say it again, 90% of this thread is about air. Get back on track.

Honestly I feel the AV max's in this game are horribly flawed. They are (Like someone else has already pointed out) are only useful at anti MAX. The exception is the Pounder MAX and it has one reason for being a better AV platform than the rest, Range, it can sit a long distance off and fire and hit because it has range. The Sparrow and Comet also have decent range, but the projectile speed is too slow to reliably hit vehicles anywhere but close range. This limits out door use and they become indoor Anti MAX suits. Pounder is also half decent at suppressing infantry but I feel its a decently balanced AV MAX and the other two should be brought to its level.

Now, this brings us back to the AI maxs. "Setting up" in a DC max just gets you killed faster. Honestly the things feel like that have an even bigger hit box than the quasar for sure, and the scat max probably has a large hit box as well. Its too easy for infantry to side strafe out from behind cover and pump decis into them. I suppose if they eliminated that it would be much better... but the range vs DPS issue still remains.

AI MAXs that have range have a useless advantage. They are too slow, and too fat and easy of targets for ESAV to be useful outside of bases. Inside bases they become meat grinding machines like they should be. The issue arises here. Inside of bases the range advantage is lost. You cant shoot long distance because there is hardly none, and when there is a long hallway, its just an invitation for people to throw deci's down it. If you cant use the range advantage you have, you don't have an advantage.

The DC max gets a buff to its DPS but still does not do the best DPS at closer ranges. It should because thats what its SPECIAL ABILITY does. If its special ability still does not bring it on par or best the scat max which does not need a special ability to do so then its unbalanced. The Scat still has its shield. The DC max has no shield and needs to use its Spec Abil to come even close and even then for just a few moments. Your argument has been shot down by the same logic three times. If you cant use the range advantage you have then you DONT HAVE AN ADVANTAGE. If at close range you use your DPS buff and still don't do the best DPS, you still are at a disadvantage. The system is broken right there.

I really think the problems with the AI and AV max's are they are nearly useless outside. AA max's on the other hand can be far away from a fight and protected by range, cover, or friendlies, they also have very good range.

[Raymac]

Bah, you're right Peace. I was way off topic on my last post. I'm sorry, I hate when I let myself get off on tangents.

Anyways, you make some great points about Maxes in general. I don't think you are giving the TR Maxes' defensive abilities enough credit, but as far as special abilities go, TR's are my least favorite. The NC shield is not as effective as you make it out to be especially since you can't fire with it up. It's great for max crashes though because it helps you get from point A to point B, but it doesn't hold up very long once you start fighting.

Overall, I feel the Maxes across the empires are balanced enough, but I do hope they can figure out a new special ability for the TR maxes for PS:N thats as sexy as the shield or jump jets.

[Effective]

Air

Balance should not be in favor of real life logic I'm afraid, there are probably better ideas then mine, I won't be petty and deny that. But my idea would work as it solves quite a large portion of the complaints related to aircraft (as they are highly unbalanced in their current form, as shown by SOE's constant stacking of more and more forms of AA to the game). You could just remove hovering aircraft from the game period, and have the reaver work like an attack helicopter (as seems might be the case going off the PS:N model) at the cost of a much lower afterburn/cruise speed.

As for balance between max units as they are right now, each is effective in it's own way.

All AI max units are good at killing infantry, unfortunately the scatmax is far superior then the other 2.

AV maxs
The comet is best at killing other max units, it's slow projectiles really prevent from being a decent anti-vehicle platform though.
The falcon is has the best AI (which is strange for a Anti-vehicle max)
The pounder is the best actual anti-vehicle max, due to the large clip size and accuracy of the rounds as long as you can lead the shots.

AA
The starfire is best all-around in my opinion, and the only AA max that has a realistic chance of going toe-to-toe with the current reaver
The burster is amazing at killing smaller unsuspecting aircraft that have weaker armor due to the no lock-on and the fast TTK.
The sparrow is hands down the worst AA max in the game, it's true that it's probably the most annoying, but it's extremely slow ROF really prevents it from being a real threat to anything but slow moving aircraft like the liberator, I actually remember when my outfit had 10 of us all in mosquitos, we found this sparrow on top of the hill, but instead of running (like we might have for a burster or starfire) we just all mowed him down before he could get enough rounds off to kill someone

[Raymac]

All AI max units are good at killing infantry, unfortunately the scatmax is far superior then the other 2.


I more or less agree with your assessment of the AA and AV maxes, although I'd like to think my Sparrow max is a little more effective than you say. I think the fire and forget missile is good at chasing air away.

For AI though, I think it's a big stretch to say the scatmax is "far superior". Sure the scatmax is fantastic at killing infantry...if you are face to face. Anything beyond point blank range, and the scatmax loses its effectiveness drastically. So keeping yourself that close to the enemy also makes you extremely vulnerable. So I think the scatmax is the best at point blank range, but the VS is probably the best all around AI max, and the TR is right there also.

Basically, the balance between the AI maxes is fine. If you really think the scatmax is that powerful, try playing with it a bit more and see its limitations. If they are standing on your toes, you will melt their face, but if they take 2 steps backwards, you are wishing you had a different max.

[Effective]

If you really think the scatmax is that powerful, try playing with it a bit more and see its limitations. If they are standing on your toes, you will melt their face, but if they take 2 steps backwards, you are wishing you had a different max.


I have, my br32 NC (I first certed it at br23 and kept it certed until 32) had it certed for a substantial amount of time when me an and a outfit mate we're both Rexo, MA, Adv. med, scatmax, plus a couple of other things. Using that particular cert combo, we were fairly unstoppable against anything but extremely high numbers (like 5-1). We actually stomped out a double gal drop on the VS using scatmax, sweeper, and a couple of boomers.

The scatmax is just a beast, it has the fastest TTK (in close quarters sure, but that's where 90% of the fighting indoors takes place, as any smart NC will avoid a ranged fight in the first place), on top of the shield which allows them to eat a full decimator, or close the distance with auto run + shield so the max doesn't take any damage. I just find it to be extremely poorly balanced, and it's a simple fix, give it either a sweeper with a similar ROF (and 1 choke, either 2nd or 3rd mode), or give it a gauss cannon with a large clip and slightly reduced accuracy compared to the gauss rifle

[Baneblade]

Hey now, some of us NC specialize at range fights. :p

The good ole Gauss/Phoenix combo.

Never gets old killing TR or VS that forgot we have ranged weapons too.

[Raymac]

I have, my br32 NC (I first certed it at br23 and kept it certed until 32) had it certed for a substantial amount of time when me an and a outfit mate we're both Rexo, MA, Adv. med, scatmax, plus a couple of other things. Using that particular cert combo, we were fairly unstoppable against anything but extremely high numbers (like 5-1). We actually stomped out a double gal drop on the VS using scatmax, sweeper, and a couple of boomers.

The scatmax is just a beast, it has the fastest TTK (in close quarters sure, but that's where 90% of the fighting indoors takes place, as any smart NC will avoid a ranged fight in the first place), on top of the shield which allows them to eat a full decimator, or close the distance with auto run + shield so the max doesn't take any damage. I just find it to be extremely poorly balanced, and it's a simple fix, give it either a sweeper with a similar ROF (and 1 choke, either 2nd or 3rd mode), or give it a gauss cannon with a large clip and slightly reduced accuracy compared to the gauss rifle

Fair enough. I think you'd have to admit that even with a cert combo like that, you are in the minority if you are able to consistently come out on top on fights where you are outnumbered 3-1 or 4-1.

I fully agree that the scatmax is a beast in close quarters, I believe it has to be really really close quarters. Take a common example of a tower fight. The distance between the top of the stairs and the bottom is too far for a scatmax to be that effective. You have to be on one of the landings together to be at the range that makes it a beast.

I just don't think the scatmax should be judged only by it's effectiveness at 2 ft. and not take into consideration how it performs compared to other maxes at say 12 ft. (which is still CQB).

[Effective]

Fair enough. I think you'd have to admit that even with a cert combo like that, you are in the minority if you are able to consistently come out on top on fights where you are outnumbered 3-1 or 4-1.

I fully agree that the scatmax is a beast in close quarters, I believe it has to be really really close quarters. Take a common example of a tower fight. The distance between the top of the stairs and the bottom is too far for a scatmax to be that effective. You have to be on one of the landings together to be at the range that makes it a beast.

I just don't think the scatmax should be judged only by it's effectiveness at 2 ft. and not take into consideration how it performs compared to other maxes at say 12 ft. (which is still CQB).

At any rate, my fix would give the scatmax more range at the trade off of it being less annoying to fight against while trying to push against it while it's corner camping.

[Raymac]

At any rate, my fix would give the scatmax more range at the trade off of it being less annoying to fight against while trying to push against it while it's corner camping.

Apart from nerfing the armor considerably, is there anything that can stop any empire max from corner humping? A max will always be more effective at close range due to it's armor and lack of mobility, so it will play to that strength.

Hopefully this will be worked out by limiting the number of cert points which will naturally limit the number of maxes. For me, I initially just had AA max, but with rexo being free, then a discounted uni-max cert, I might as well get them all.

[Effective]

Apart from nerfing the armor considerably, is there anything that can stop any empire max from corner humping?

They need to change base design so it's not as linear, it needs to be more open and spread out, so that you can come in from multiple angles and paths. One of PS's biggest problems is that combat indoors is incredibly crowded, due to choke points and narrow passage ways.

[Raymac]

They need to change base design so it's not as linear, it needs to be more open and spread out, so that you can come in from multiple angles and paths. One of PS's biggest problems is that combat indoors is incredibly crowded, due to choke points and narrow passage ways.

YES!!! Yes 10,000 times. I'm all for having choke points, but the base design leaves alot to be desired. I'm really excited to see the new base layouts.

[Peacemaker]

THANK YOU for getting this thread back on the rails guys. This is how we need to think about stuff :)

Anyways....

I was just thinking, in terms of PS:N the easiest way to get the MAXs balanced is start from a base model max. *This is during the development process not what we would play with* All 3 empires would have the same maxs and small tweaks to each in different directions according to the empires combat ideals.

Example would be the actual armor values on the MAXs. Lets say they keep the current DPS values for each max the same. Decrease vanu armor, keep NC about the same *Shield ability gives a benefit, but as its more of an assault MAX it should get a tad more*, and the TR MAX gets a buff in armor as it is more of a defensive MAX and the lock down ability makes it a magnet for AV weapons.

Im still pondering ideas on how to make MAXs (The AI and AV atleast) more viable in open spaces. As it stands now, people see a MAX in a fight and out comes the ESAV and down goes that MAX.

[The Desert Fox]

Stop bitchin'.

no u

Lol Let's talk more about AIR!

Jk, in all seriousness I do agree with you their peacemaker, giving the TR a bit of an armor boost due too the big sign above our head that says "Aim Deci \/ Here" It would help us out. it would be a nice change.

[Azellon]

Having played TR for a few days now, I agree completely with this assessment.

Give TR more armor, bigger clip sizes, make their weapons do more damage, give us one more implant slot and make our Stamina recharge twice as fast as all implants active at once can drain it.

Oh, and make our air invincible. And nerf NC and VS.

[The Desert Fox]

Having played TR for a few days now, I agree completely with this assessment.

Give TR more armor, bigger clip sizes, make their weapons do more damage, give us one more implant slot and make our Stamina recharge twice as fast as all implants active at once can drain it.

Oh, and make our air invincible. And nerf NC and VS.
This.

I am glad you admit defeat and realize how wrong you were with your original statement.:groovy:

So yeah, lets just do this.