No recerting

[FortunadoAE]

Certification management was a huge drag on gameplay and should be taken out.

-Too many rules. 24 hours before this, can only forget so many of these, make it simple and permanent instead.

-Yeah it was handy to be able to have a squad member run in and cert hacker if you didn't have one. But the only reason you didn't have one is because they weren't valued. And they weren't valued because someone could always run in and cert hacker...

-Outfit members never had permanent roles. One week a guy would be a reliable medic and the next he'd be using HA and not have med gear anymore. It completely messed up expectations and probably tripled the "ANYONE MEDIC???" type of messages.

-Forget keeping track of outfit members-- try your own characters. If you didn't play very often you'd go into battle completely forgetting oh, hey, I'm a pilot now. Whoops.

-Equipment! It's not just changing certs at a terminal, but also all of your preset loadouts. You could change ONE cert and suddenly lose all of your presets.

Make 'em permanent! The first 7 levels are easy anyway.

[DviddLeff]

No way. All this will lead to is people having as many alts as possible.

[SKYeXile]

yea... no, alot of people like me only play prettymuch one character, while im cool with having long respec timers and stuff. I think I speak for alot of people when I say we definatly do not want this in planetside.

Its one of the things that makes Planetside unique, on the one character in planetside iv played, infil, max whore, grunt, pilot.

Personally I think it kept me playing longer since iv been able to play so many different rolls on the one character.

[TRex]

ditto to the above ..don't want classes in any form ty

howether , I think they should allow you a ''forget all'' option to certs on maybe a 24hr timer or something, as well as the normal 6hr cd as it is.

[Sirisian]

You should really add a poll so it's easier to see that no one agrees with this. I'm in the group that only uses a single character. Even though I stick to the same few certs most of the time I sometimes get bored and try something new for a day.

So instead of a single character you want outfits to have multiple alt characters for each player? I could see myself deleting my main character because I don't like using more than one name.

[Peacemaker]

Ive got like 8 chars but I use only one. No. Forget all please. Once every week.

[TRex]

Had a bit of a rethink on this , what if you could play as your main character but you could unlock dual spec ?

What I mean is , hopefully they will limit levels to BR23/25 and associated certs that go with that. So , you maybe able to continue levelling but no extra certs though hopefully some merit unlocks to customise your character and make you more of an individual.

What if, at BR25 , you unlocked the ability to dual cert , on a 6hr cooldown , with a 2 minute 'vulnerability phase' where you have no stamina and inability to use weapons during the transition. Say you just hit BR25 , changed to alt spec (which meant you still were a BR25 in appearance etc) but you effectively had zero certs now, and had to re-acquire certs by levelling again.
The xp you gain would continue to level your main toon, but cert wise would be like levelling a new character again.

You would remove the whole BR40 scenario since you were limited to what certs you could have at = BR25 . Howether , for people who want to play their main character and not a tonne of alts within their outfit , this could be a way around it. You could have your primary spec as grunt / air cav , then switch to start working on being a driver /support ..or whatever.

Say its during the day and rest of you outfit dosen't come on until night , you could play your alt spec during that time then switch to your main spec to be more useful at night.

I don't think it would make anyone overpowered per se , since you would be effectively trying to level from BR25 onwards with little to no certs again. Some may look at this as a nice challenge, or not , or stick to one spec and just level an alt . But the option could be there to play your main character only if you wish . You could still re-cert ofc, but now you have 2 specs to go at.

As a sub-note, having an alt spec and unlocking it , would give you 10 new favourite slots to use in that spec.

[FortunadoAE]

Had a bit of a rethink on this , what if you could play as your main character but you could unlock dual spec ?

What I mean is , hopefully they will limit levels to BR23/25 and associated certs that go with that. So , you maybe able to continue levelling but no extra certs though hopefully some merit unlocks to customise your character and make you more of an individual.

What if, at BR25 , you unlocked the ability to dual cert , on a 6hr cooldown , with a 2 minute 'vulnerability phase' where you have no stamina and inability to use weapons during the transition. Say you just hit BR25 , changed to alt spec (which meant you still were a BR25 in appearance etc) but you effectively had zero certs now, and had to re-acquire certs by levelling again.
The xp you gain would continue to level your main toon, but cert wise would be like levelling a new character again.

You would remove the whole BR40 scenario since you were limited to what certs you could have at = BR25 . Howether , for people who want to play their main character and not a tonne of alts within their outfit , this could be a way around it. You could have your primary spec as grunt / air cav , then switch to start working on being a driver /support ..or whatever.

Say its during the day and rest of you outfit dosen't come on until night , you could play your alt spec during that time then switch to your main spec to be more useful at night.

I don't think it would make anyone overpowered per se , since you would be effectively trying to level from BR25 onwards with little to no certs again. Some may look at this as a nice challenge, or not , or stick to one spec and just level an alt . But the option could be there to play your main character only if you wish . You could still re-cert ofc, but now you have 2 specs to go at.

As a sub-note, having an alt spec and unlocking it , would give you 10 new favourite slots to use in that spec.

TRex: That's a really cool idea. Reminds me of weapon-switching in D2. Two characters in one almost. I think this would be a good compromise... You should be a game designer! This also curbs certflation and has a great "New game+" feel to it.

Everyone else: I think using "I only have one character" isn't an effective argument here. I think multiple characters should be encouraged (or, a solution like TRex's above). Again, that's the way it's done in almost every other MMO.

It also wouldn't be 'classes'-- it'd be the same cert system as now, just with no recerts.

Make recerts rare. A reward a player gets at one year. Or something an entire outfit gets if they get some honor.

The important thing here is that you're playing a game with other people. The expectation of role is the most important point of all of my points. The only way PS:N will ever be big is if they focus on social cohesion.

And let's face it: It's going to be either solid gameplay systems like this that naturally encourage social gameplay, or shitty Farmville/WoW grindfest mechanics.

[LordReaver]

I see no point in changing the system. If you are worried about things like uncerting medium assault to uncert ha, sniping, sa, and av, the solution is simple. You don't allow uncerting a bottom level cert, until the top ones are uncerted.

[FortunadoAE]

I see no point in changing the system. If you are worried about things like uncerting medium assault to uncert ha, sniping, sa, and av, the solution is simple. You don't allow uncerting a bottom level cert, until the top ones are uncerted.

I'm not suggesting a change to the system. I'm suggesting getting rid of a system! When something is this big and entangled it becomes its own system.

It's unneeded complexity. The game should only be complex in areas where it really adds to gameplay, and decerting isn't one of those areas.

It's confusing to new players. It's a chore to old players.

It destroys your sense of character. Your character is a level, not a character filling a role. If you were describing your Planetside character to a friend, how would you do it? "Oh, he's uh... a level 25 guy."

But again, the social expectations thing is the biggest point. Give people permanent roles and you solidify teamplay.

[Duddy]

Yeah... you've clearly not thought this through.

Ever considered the effect this would have on new players for example? They have little to no idea what they are doing... so what happens when they pick up certs that have absolutely no synergy w/e?

Are they just supposed to go "Oh darn" and start again? Bollocks. The Diablo series is dropping that very mechanic for this reason. It sucks. Who wants to have to waste all that time simply due to inexperience or a mistake?

You talk about "sense of character" and "permanency", the system is about as permanent as it needs to be. You can't change between roles rapidly, but if you really want to change it allows you to do so over time.

As for your sense of character, well frankly that is down to you. If you spend all your time flip-flopping between certs then that is your problem. Most people I know tend to stick to certain certs.

Honestly, you haven't considered this at all, beyond its effect on how you play.

[wildcat140679]

I’m glad we were allowed to reconfigure our certifications every now and then. This allowed you (without the need of creating alts) experience all aspects of PlanetSide. Over time you end up with the right certification configuration what you feel you are really good at and works well for your playing style.

If you believe locking certification choices is the solution then you’re very mistaken. Multiple alts will be created with different roles/certification layouts. People will keep on doing this until they have found the perfect soldier skill layout that fits there playing style.

So instead of having Player A being a Adv Medic one week and swapping them for Heavy Assault the next week, you will end up with Player A the Adv medic is online one week, and Player A his Alt. is online the next week with Heavy Assault.

You end up with outfits of 100 members in size, what is so full of alts that it`s actually only 20 actual players in size.


No, Certifications being permanent doesn't sound like a good nor appealing solution. I believe that up to some degree, it has more to do with what the certification has to offer, how rewarding it is and how often they are able to actually use it with in there playing style.

Take Advanced Medic for example, as much as people had need for it, the fact that 99% of the fallen soldiers would not wait to call out for a medic to get them back on there feet and instead just re-spawn, doesn't make the job very rewarding to be a Adv Medic. Only in well co-ordinated squad/platoon (outfit) you will have use of them and still then players will choice to re-spawn in stead of being revived.

[FortunadoAE]

Good arguments, Duddy.

Diablo is indeed moving away from it, but I don't know if Diablo is a good model. It's almost an MMO but not quite there. Do they let you do this in WoW or EQ? I think those are better places to look.

Again, I don't think decerts should be taken out entirely, just the ease at which it's done. Make them a reward that you can earn, not a "Do cert management every 24 hours" chore. The worst thing you can put in an MMO is a chore without an attached reward mechanism. And that's exactly what cert management is now.

Of course, it's no good to just say "it should be this way" without attaching ideas. So here's some ideas on ways it could happen:

-You get one decert point every 100 kills.
-Enemies randomly drop them.
-It's an empire benefit for locking one of the continents.
-Your outfit gets a handful to give out as rewards every 10,000 outfit points (or whatever) - This is my personal favorite
-Give them away to attendees of events

Planetside likes to stay away from any form of capital or economic exchange, but I'd also like to see them as an actual in-game item. Could be cool. It could look like the red flashy thing from Men in Black. :lol:

[Miir]

I don't mind the current system.

The only thing I'd change would be how they deal with the medical class. I think they should just allow anyone to be a advanced medic. Have it based on the tools and space in your backpack or even an specific armor type rather than a cert.

This would allow people to adjust their squads to suit and eliminate that situation where the only medic in the squad has to log for the night and everyone else is on a 6 hour cool down to recert advanced medic.

The rest of the certification process seems ok to me.

[morf]

Punishing or penalizing players for a decision (this would include making it permanent) is a rather outdated way of thinking. Games have shifted away from this and have been more successful as a result. (See eq vs. Wow) I understand the expectation of having a certain member of your team in a certain role but that's something that can be managed by the outfit so it doesn't need to be coded into gameplay mechanics. The downside of this proposal greatly outweighs the benefit and there is no need to add to player frustration. What if I ultimately want to transport myself in a mossie but at lower level I choose atv instead because it's less cert points? Should I really be stuck with atv for life, or forced to walk until I can afford air cav?

[Duddy]

Good arguments, Duddy.

Diablo is indeed moving away from it, but I don't know if Diablo is a good model. It's almost an MMO but not quite there. Do they let you do this in WoW or EQ? I think those are better places to look.

Again, I don't think decerts should be taken out entirely, just the ease at which it's done. Make them a reward that you can earn, not a "Do cert management every 24 hours" chore. The worst thing you can put in an MMO is a chore without an attached reward mechanism. And that's exactly what cert management is now.

Well I know for sure that you can "re-cert" in WoW, and it is a relatively minor cost there too. More minor in fact. Which would stand against your ideals :P

I'm all for making it something you earn, possibly that might be something you could finally use outfit points on eh? At least for forget all re-certs, I think the standard re-cert timer should remain however.

As for it being a chore... yeah it is only if you are trying to re-cert everything without a "forget all". Which would be a good reason to make it an earn-able thing rather than sporadic and "random" occurrence.

Either way, I would prefer not to see re-certing become a trivial matter, it should take time to do. Either by slowly over time, or by spending time to build up a "forget all".

[FortunadoAE]

Well I know for sure that you can "re-cert" in WoW, and it is a relatively minor cost there too. More minor in fact. Which would stand against your ideals :P

I'm all for making it something you earn, possibly that might be something you could finally use outfit points on eh? At least for forget all re-certs, I think the standard re-cert timer should remain however.

As for it being a chore... yeah it is only if you are trying to re-cert everything without a "forget all". Which would be a good reason to make it an earn-able thing rather than sporadic and "random" occurrence.

Either way, I would prefer not to see re-certing become a trivial matter, it should take time to do. Either by slowly over time, or by spending time to build up a "forget all".

I didn't realize it was in WoW. Perhaps games are moving away from it.

I think you're right, then, about the standard forget system being kept. I'd still like to see a better twist on it though. Maybe a bigger recharge time but "rollover" forgets? The system now seems geared towards the obsessive, especially if you're doing a big change. I think TRex's cert switchout idea could curb that a bit, too.

Full-forget decerts would be great to keep around as outfit rewards. Maybe even a reward for crashing a galaxy or running a full tank into a minefield. "The guys have been thinking and, you definitely deserve the option to never drive a tank again!"

[CutterJohn]

I would go the opposite direction. Respec everything whenever you feel like(in sanc, of course). That eliminates the rules too. I have frankly never understood the point of the cooldown, and consider it an annoying and detrimental feature. So people will switch their roles up. And? Who is it hurting? Are you going to spend 10 minutes to go back to sanc, respec, and come back all the time?

Some days I just want to change my game up, and do not want to switch to an alt. Alts are for avoiding people on your buddy list in FPS games. Not being able to change up your playstyle.

I could also accept recert tokens being earned through various feats, milestones, and achievements, as well as accumulated daily. It would limit the supply, but at least the usage of it would be up to the player, rather than a set in stone limit. Maybe you go weeks with no or minor spec changes, and then just get bored one weekend and try a bunch of different stuff. Who knows.

[Goku]

No thanks. What game you are speaking of has no relation to PS:N.

[CutterJohn]

I'll respond to your no thanks with a no thanks of my own. :D

I know this is virtually impossible to answer, but if PS had no respec timer, would anyone suggest its inclusion for PS2?

What does it do for gameplay that makes it important? Not character building, or RP, since I care nothing for those, and people who do can not respec all they wish. No.. How does it adversely affect the fight?

[basti]

Suggesting that your choises of equipment are permanent is suggesting to force players to never try something out, and never respond to the player situation. ITs a very very bad idea.

Imagine, you are a grunt, got some cert points ready to spend, cant decide if you want to go engi, hacking or Med.
Currently, your side lacks hackers. Because you want to be useful, you choose hacking, and are now stuck with it.
Just days later, a bunch of other guys reactivated/certed hacking, and suddenly there are now more than enough hackers, but you start to lack medics. You are then stuck with a cert you almost never use, while you cant even recert to get the useful thing.

Bad bad bad idea.

[Lonehunter]

No way. All this will lead to is people having as many alts as possible.

:nod:

[Goku]

I'll respond to your no thanks with a no thanks of my own. :D

I know this is virtually impossible to answer, but if PS had no respec timer, would anyone suggest its inclusion for PS2?

What does it do for gameplay that makes it important? Not character building, or RP, since I care nothing for those, and people who do can not respec all they wish. No.. How does it adversely affect the fight?

Sorry I wasn't responding to you, but the OP.

Though I do think there should be some kind of timer, so people can't go and and forth to get the equipment they need all the time. The 24 hours is excessive in my opinion that was originally in this game. The 6 hours is ok, but 3 hours could be a good middle ground. Lets you switch certs up a few times through the day, yet long enough to bar people from getting different certs through one fight. I will say I do wish there was a forget all option you can use once a month. I have found many occasions where I want to completely respec my character on the whim.

That was by far one of the best features in PS is the fact you are not stuck in one class thanks for the cert system.

[Nephilimuk]

hmm if it isn't broken don't fix it.

No cert changes just means locking people down. PS is fast paced keep it fast paced and give players choice.

The cool down period makes people think - keep it

[TRex]

I would go the opposite direction. Respec everything whenever you feel like(in sanc, of course). That eliminates the rules too. I have frankly never understood the point of the cooldown, and consider it an annoying and detrimental feature. So people will switch their roles up. And? Who is it hurting? Are you going to spend 10 minutes to go back to sanc, respec, and come back all the time?



I must admit it is great when you start a new alt now and you get a whole week to swap and change your certs out at will. A bit of a pain re-doing all your favourites, but that only takes a few minutes .

[MoreShiraz]

I've been lurking for quite some time, I was in beta and played until core combat/BFR's and I've been resubbing every year or so to explore the worlds in nostalgia. I got back into PS after the merge of the servers (Werner was dead) and I'm really pleased to see the population grow again to pop locks occasionally. Enjoying PS alot as it is today, good stuff - I love the unique call point of PS that a lvl 1 char can kill a lvl 40 in the right circumstances - no other MMO has that and it is PS's backbone.. If PSN is a rebuild I cant wait.

I have signed up to the forum on the basis of this thread because I think its an excellent conversation.

My thoughts are;

1. Allow complete recerts for the first week, allow recerts of top level skills within 6 hours - as it is.

2. Disallow 'forget' of lower certs to free up many points.

3. CHARGE a tiny fee for a class recert and maybe a small fee for a complete recert. Yes, its a micro transaction for a low fee. Lets give these guys some incentive to keep people on the team, to keep PSN moving, and to work to keep the will of the community implemented in code. Programmers have mortgages too...

I think Microtransactions are a good call - don't get rid of the sub, but use the microtransaction to deliberately keep the monthly very low in order to attract players and offer incentives to pay just that little bit more for "goodies". Respec is a prime example.

We could see lots of small microtransations for new hats, new cod pieces etc - lets generate some finance for the developers but lets do it to keep the sub low.

The worst mistake would be to offer combat advantages to microtransations. Keep the game level as it is, charge for respecs and aesthetic items and use this to keep the sub low in order to keep players playing.

I think a good mix between the Battlefield Heroes/Team Fortress Model and a subscription fee would go well. SOE could offer freebies occasionally, we could choose when to pay more and the player base would be maintained.

Oh and dont do Core combat/BFR's again ;)

[wolfkrone]

I am so glad this will never happen. I hate classes.

[FortunadoAE]

Everyone: Read the thread! The idea's evolved a bit...

MoreShiraz: Microtransactions could be good for the health of the game. You're lucky nobody seems to read past the OP, or you'd be getting all the tomatoes being thrown at me. :lol:

I don't think this particular microtransaction would work, though. Planetside tends to eschew all forms of player-owned capital. Still, it's a good line of thinking.... makes me wonder where they would work.

[Geist]

I'm not suggesting a change to the system. I'm suggesting getting rid of a system! When something is this big and entangled it becomes its own system.

It's unneeded complexity. The game should only be complex in areas where it really adds to gameplay, and decerting isn't one of those areas.

It's confusing to new players. It's a chore to old players.

It destroys your sense of character. Your character is a level, not a character filling a role. If you were describing your Planetside character to a friend, how would you do it? "Oh, he's uh... a level 25 guy."

But again, the social expectations thing is the biggest point. Give people permanent roles and you solidify teamplay.
I'm a little worried about you... If you think that uncerting and recerting are complex , then why are you on the computer at all? Why do you play Planetside.

There are plenty of things that are unnecessarily complex about PS, but the certification system is, at least IMHO, one of the best things about Planetside. It's simple, pay x amount of certification points for whatever. Forgetting is also simple, forget x, wait 6 hours.

I can support making the forget action longer, like once per week, and a BR cap of 20-25, but taking out the entire thing sounds like changing a integral part of the PS experience. And that's just wrong.

[FortunadoAE]

There are plenty of things that are unnecessarily complex about PS, but the certification system is, at least IMHO, one of the best things about Planetside. It's simple, pay x amount of certification points for whatever. Forgetting is also simple, forget x, wait 6 hours.

Well, that's part of the reason I conceded the point to Duddy a few posts back. :)

Also, remember that simple systems can still give rise to very complex behaviors. The constant, last-minute squad cert juggling act was a direct result of the seemingly simple cert system. Unintended consequences and all that.

A long timer, a lower level cap and TRex's dual personality idea would make a great solution in my opinion. Or instead of a timer, you accrue decert credits over time, up to a limit. (ie you get one every two days, and you can hold up to ten)

[Hank]

Charging a fee for recerting is a terrible idea. The $15/month general fee will ensure SOE sees returns. Microtransactions will lead us down a slippery slope which ends in being able to buy other features in-game, and I don't want PlanetSide to be a contest of personal wealth.

Benefits of the old/current system:

Specialization, which encourages team play.
Prevents players (mostly) from changing their gameplay mid-battle, which keeps battles realistic and encourages strategy.


Cons of the old/current system:

Restricting of what a player has a chance to experience. This is important as it hurts the game's mainstream appeal (which pays the bills) by limiting those who don't have a lot of time to play and are forced to wait days to try something new. And for those that argue in favor of alts: many of the high-end and synced loadouts require a lot of certs. Someone who plays 1-2 hours a day isn't going to be happy about it being a long grind just to have a grunt character as well as an infiltrator, and so on. That's a lot of time spent with MA running around getting blasted by maxed characters.


The old system is too restricting and should be replaced, but we need to preserve the encouragement of team-play and strategy. Each player should have a primary and secondary cert loadout.

The primary loadout will be a type of specialization in a certain branch of certs. It will take a while to change, but have incentives like an extra inventory slot for stealth, an extra two mines for combat engineers, and so on. This is the more permanent loadout and will create different player roles.
The secondary loadout will take less time to recert, but offer no incentives. This will be used to experience new content, practice something you plan on investing your primary loadout into, or anything a player wants to do with the certs.
Players can switch between the two every six hours.

[Geist]

Well, that's part of the reason I conceded the point to Duddy a few posts back. :)

Also, remember that simple systems can still give rise to very complex behaviors. The constant, last-minute squad cert juggling act was a direct result of the seemingly simple cert system. Unintended consequences and all that.

A long timer, a lower level cap and TRex's dual personality idea would make a great solution in my opinion. Or instead of a timer, you accrue decert credits over time, up to a limit. (ie you get one every two days, and you can hold up to ten)

Lol, sorry, I actually posted that without reading the entire thread. Bad me, bad. :domotwak:

There are some good points in this thread. Carry on.:thumbsup:

[wormywyrm]

I would be happy with a significantly longer timer for recerting. I like the idea of knowing who does what in my outfit and people generally sticking to their roles, it is fun.

How about an temporary outfit cert too for outfit events? A temporary cert that the outfit leader can choose for the entire outfit. So the outfit could cert mosquitos for everyone and we could all pull mosquitos for an afternoon.

[Hamma]

Overall I think the current system is fine. If anything I think there should be lower battle rank rather than the jack of all trade crap we see now. I know why they raised the BR, but they realy should have found other ways to keep players playing rather than making it so they can do almost everything.

[Bags]

If anything they should remove the timer.

[SonjaBlade]

I like the current system, although a once a month full re-cert would be nice. And none of this BR 40 stuff. Having everything takes some fun out of it.

[CutterJohn]

1. Allow complete recerts for the first week, allow recerts of top level skills within 6 hours - as it is.

2. Disallow 'forget' of lower certs to free up many points.

3. CHARGE a tiny fee for a class recert and maybe a small fee for a complete recert. Yes, its a micro transaction for a low fee.

The worst mistake would be to offer combat advantages to microtransations. Keep the game level as it is, charge for respecs and aesthetic items and use this to keep the sub low in order to keep players playing.

If recerting is not a combat advantage, whats the point of restricting it? Simply to provide a vehicle for microtransactions?