Question I REALLY want answered.

[Ranik Ortega]

You're never stuck, capped or locked in to anything with the PS2 cert system. Recerting isn't necessary because there's no restrictions on how many certs you can have trained at a time, just how many you can take advantage of on any given loadout.


I was under the impression you would still have something like 20-24 Certs to spend between classes. But if I am reading this right that means at any given time you might be a BR 20 Engie / Medic /Light assault / Heavy assault all at the change of a terminal. This seems to go WAAAAAY against any sense of specialization as its all at the drop of a hat if I am correct in this I think THIS will be the most damaging to any sense of specialization in planetside.

Is it just me or does this explanation of classes make less sense than the initial class descriptions?

[Zulthus]

Honestly, it seems like he's implying you can be everything, just not all at once. And if that's true, PlanetSide won't be the same. :cry:

[SKYeXile]

yea sounds like its done, shut it down!

[Zulthus]

yea sounds like its done, shut it down!

Maybe not the game itself, but you know, specialization and all that

[tjmonk15]

Umm... This was one of the beauties of PlanetSide. You could be anything, just not all at once. Now they are just changing how easy it is to switch, how is this bad?

They are taking something that was great in PS1 and making it easier/better in PS2.

If you think something is bad, explain why. Just saying "PlanetSide is done" and nothing else, implies you are either a 12 yr old who thinks he knows everything, a random doom sayer, or someone who just doesn't like change.

None of the above imply any intelligence, quite the opposite in fact.

-Monk

[Zulthus]

Umm... This was one of the beauties of PlanetSide. You could be anything, just not all at once. Now they are just changing how easy it is to switch, how is this bad?

They are taking something that was great in PS1 and making it easier/better in PS2.

If you think something is bad, explain why. Just saying "PlanetSide is done" and nothing else, implies you are either a 12 yr old who thinks he knows everything, a random doom sayer, or someone who just doesn't like change.

None of the above imply any intelligence, quite the opposite in fact.

-Monk

Planetside didn't hand you everything all at once, which it * SEEMS LIKE THIS GAME IS DOING * All I'm saying is that if you can indeed cert everything at once in this game, which was nothing like PlanetSide 1, what's the point of specialization if all you do is die and switch to the exact kit you need for every situation? The "beauty of PlanetSide" was people having their specific roles; not everyone changing to exactly what they need when they need it. Calling me a "12 yr old who thinks he knows everything" doesn't imply any intelligence on your part either. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm stating my opinion on what PlanetSide truly is, so there is no need for you to flame me for it. Kthxbye

[SKYeXile]

^^^

Yea, PS1, you made your character to play a certain way or to play afew different ways.you could not do everything at once, you could not also switch to anything you like at anytime, you had to wait for your cert timer. It made people think well in advance, what cert does my squad or outfit need to run more effectivly?

[Sifer2]

Well its like I said in the other thread. It's an attempt to add more long term progression most likely. Since training these skills takes real life hours like in Eve. An I have no doubt that at least at launch they will probably aim to make it take months or even a year or more to get everything.

But yeah once we have 2 year vets running about that can switch to any fully trained class we will kind of be back to where we are in Planetside now. But is it that bad? I mean after all they can only do one role at a time.

[Zulthus]

Well its like I said in the other thread. It's an attempt to add more long term progression most likely. Since training these skills takes real life hours like in Eve. An I have no doubt that at least at launch they will probably aim to make it take months or even a year or more to get everything.

But yeah once we have 2 year vets running about that can switch to any fully trained class we will kind of be back to where we are in Planetside now. But is it that bad? I mean after all they can only do one role at a time.

Yes, it is that bad. PlanetSide is unique to the point where players choose their role, should know their role, and excel at it, but it seems this game is giving you everything and letting you use it whenever you feel like it. That, to me, feels like Call of Duty. And I don't like Call of Duty. :cool:

[Bags]

People had multiple characters specced multiple ways. This just removes the need to do that. Going to need to see exactly how this works before I pass judgment.

[Zulthus]

People had multiple characters specced multiple ways. This just removes the need to do that. Going to need to see exactly how this works before I pass judgment.

That's a much better method than the one implied. We don't need people that do everything - at least make another toon and specialize it in another direction if you so feel like doing something else.

[Death2All]

The purpose of certifications was to make your character choose a role. This also emphasized teamwork because you'd have someone be a hacker, someone be the medic, someone be the MAX etc.

Since you can now "seamlessly" change classes and apparently cert whatever you want this time around it really diminishes the need for teamwork.


I really hope there is more clarification in the future or they're trolling us.

[Bags]

You guys do realize you need an equipment terminal to change role, right? Someone isn't going to go behind a tree with MA and pop out with a thumper.

[Zulthus]

You guys do realize you need an equipment terminal to change role, right? Someone isn't going to go behind a tree with MA and pop out with a thumper.

That doesn't change the fact that you can seamlessly switch to whatever you want. That's not PlanetSide, that's COD. The point is that nobody will have a role anymore - you can do whatever you want. It doesn't matter that you have to die first.

[Ranik Ortega]

Yes I could understand the need for classes to keep silly stuff from being done aka Agile pilot med/engy/deci air drops and the like. And even so the need to make classes so the classes themselves can have very interesting play styles attached to them. However, the ability to simultaneously have a fully developed skill tree in every class at the same time is folly. It completely removes the point of specialization in a class if you can just specialize in another class any given time at any given terminal.

I will refrain from panicking yet or fear mongering, but I deeply want to have this question answered further by some of the developers since they have been very kind as of late in answering fan questions. Classes were an understandable addition, however the LACK of specialization into classes for at least short periods is not understandable.

How would I go about getting this clarified?

[Death2All]

You guys do realize you need an equipment terminal to change role, right? Someone isn't going to go behind a tree with MA and pop out with a thumper.

That's not the issue. It's the fact that you can even do that. Classes don't belong in PS in my opinion. The certification system worked perfectly.

[Raymac]

Since you can now "seamlessly" change classes and apparently cert whatever you want this time around it really diminishes the need for teamwork.

I see what you are saying here, but I gotta disagree. Even if everyone can do everything, you still need to perform roles, hence needing to rely on other people. For example, the best raids I've been in have used combined arms, so you still need people to fill the different roles. Or perhaps you want to all select the same thing like a max crash team, well more people would be able to participate.

I think this idea of a one-man-army-too-many-certs stems from the type of gameplay PS1 slipped into. By this I mean, the fights are all about the bases so you could fly your mosq, bail out over the base, run in with your HA, then repair and heal yourself. The problem is being able to do all those things at once, not that you are able to do them all.

But you are right, we really are going to have to wait and see when we get more information. The skill trees could be so deep it would take years to get them all at which point who knows what the expansions will bring. Or maybe there are some restrictions on certs. Most importantly, we are going to see how it will play in beta and I have faith in the devs.

[Zulthus]

I see what you are saying here, but I gotta disagree. Even if everyone can do everything, you still need to perform roles, hence needing to rely on other people. For example, the best raids I've been in have used combined arms, so you still need people to fill the different roles. Or perhaps you want to all select the same thing like a max crash team, well more people would be able to participate.

I think this idea of a one-man-army-too-many-certs stems from the type of gameplay PS1 slipped into. By this I mean, the fights are all about the bases so you could fly your mosq, bail out over the base, run in with your HA, then repair and heal yourself. The problem is being able to do all those things at once, not that you are able to do them all.

But you are right, we really are going to have to wait and see when we get more information. The skill trees could be so deep it would take years to get them all at which point who knows what the expansions will bring. Or maybe there are some restrictions on certs. Most importantly, we are going to see how it will play in beta and I have faith in the devs.

You make a good point, but I still would rather have it where players can only have one specialization per character. That's not to say they can't make another and follow a different path. I just feel it would add more to the teamplay aspect.

[Bags]

That's not the issue. It's the fact that you can even do that. Classes don't belong in PS in my opinion. The certification system worked perfectly.

While I like PS1 system better I don't think this will be too bad.

[Raymac]

You make a good point, but I still would rather have it where players can only have one specialization per character. That's not to say they can't make another and follow a different path. I just feel it would add more to the teamplay aspect.

You are right, of course, but I like this idea of giving players more options and becoming more versatile. From the sound of it, though, the skill trees will be so deep, you'll probably have to focus on a certain role or two for awhile anyways.

I think there is a nice balance somewhere between "Nobody can fly a Gal?" and "I'm gonna fly in with my reaver, bail out with my Jackhammer, use my jump jets, while I heal myself, and hack the base while I OS every enemy."

[Senyu]

From what I understood, every class or specilization has it's own progression. You may be a 20 pilot but still only be a 5 medic which was I think an example they actually used. So in sense you COULD have every cert but I beleive its only after progressing and finishing every tree.


Which if this is indeed how it is does give you a goal to work for in becoming 20 in everything but it just makes me ask whats next after you do it all.

[CutterJohn]

The purpose of certifications was to make your character choose a role. This also emphasized teamwork because you'd have someone be a hacker, someone be the medic, someone be the MAX etc.

Since you can now "seamlessly" change classes and apparently cert whatever you want this time around it really diminishes the need for teamwork.


I really hope there is more clarification in the future or they're trolling us.

Someone will still need to hack, be the medic, and get in the max. Teamwork does not diminish. It just means everyone gets to take turns on what they do rather than be stuck in roles every night.


If this is indeed how the system works, then I greatly approve. I hated the recert timer, and felt it was a detriment to gameplay. I'm an indecisive person who likes switching up what I do on sometimes a daily basis.


Which if this is indeed how it is does give you a goal to work for in becoming 20 in everything but it just makes me ask whats next after you do it all.

In truth, I feel the rpg aspects are just dumb. Were it my choice there would be no levels, no goals, just the fight. Everything else distracts from that.

So. What do you do after you are maxed out? Simple.

Play the game.

[Raymac]

Which if this is indeed how it is does give you a goal to work for in becoming 20 in everything but it just makes me ask whats next after you do it all.

Expansions and level cap increases. Isn't that what MMOs do? :p

[Zulthus]

In truth, I feel the rpg aspects are just dumb. Were it my choice there would be no levels, no goals, just the fight. Everything else distracts from that.

So. What do you do after you are maxed out? Simple.

Play the game.

What would there be to work for then?

[Bags]

What would there be to work for then?

Fun. I know, shocking, but some people play video games to have fun.

[Senyu]

I do enjoy the game for its simple Get out there and Kill instead of leveling to 80 and getting gear and shtuff. But if there is some form of progression such as a deep tree some people are mentioning I also really enjoy that. Building something over time and specilized is just fun.

[Zulthus]

I do enjoy the game for its simple Get out there and Kill instead of leveling to 80 and getting gear and shtuff. But if there is some form of progression such as a deep tree some people are mentioning I also really enjoy that. Building something over time and specilized is just fun.

QFT. The game would get boring if there wasn't anything to pursue.

[Redshift]

i'm not sold on the idea of having all certs and changing roles, the cert system stops you performing all roles brilliantly which i like,

I'd not like to reaver to a base drop out and pull a rexo HA from a term and still be able to pull MAX's at some other stage

i quite like that my grunting certs mean i can only afford a mossie, and i can't use a MAX because i have AMS/sniping instead

[Malorn]

My understanding of the system as it has been revealed*:

1) There is a huge skill tree with sub-trees that are roles you can play on the battlefield.

2) battle rank unlocks certs automatically across all trees. As you gain BR you unlock more certs, enabling those roles to do more/have more. So for example, if you switch to a pilot role you gain access to some basic weapons and the ability to fly aircraft. A higher BR pilot may have access to more specialized aircraft or other support certifications (repair, better weapons, etc).

3) You can switch roles at any time, at which time you gain access to all of the certs in that role. So you could walk up to a cert terminal and swap out of that pilot role into a MAX role.

4) You can train in certs specifically to gain enhancements in those certs, like upgrades to do that thing better and allow you to specialize further. This training is real-time and probably increases exponentially like EVE Online. (it could also be that you must train the first rank to use a cert at all, but like EVE the first rank trains quickly)


It seems as though it is like PS where if you were max BR and you had access to every cert, but the difference is you could only use subsets of them at any one time.

Additionally, there's another layer of specialization allowing you to do the roles you like better by investing time in them.

That's my understanding of the system. Matt mentioned that re-certing is unnecessary because you have access to all the certs, but not all at the same time. I believe my understanding is consistent with that statement, however I can still see where people would like to "respec" their specialization decisions, especially since these take real time to earn and shifting specializations from say an uber awesome tank driver to an uber awesome infantryman would not be quick, as you'd have to wait and train up all the infantry stuff. But in that case we might just be SOL and have to train it up in either case. I'm not sure the respec is entirely needed but I can see how some people would want one.

*: I could be entirely wrong here

[CutterJohn]

That is my understanding of it as well, except I believe battle rank just unlocks the certs that you can then train. Having a BR20 won't mean anything if you've not trained any of the certs.

He also said that you get BR far, far faster than you can train the certs you unlock, so I doubt having all certs trained will even be an issue for a year or two.

[Malorn]

That is my understanding of it as well, except I believe battle rank just unlocks the certs that you can then train. Having a BR20 won't mean anything if you've not trained any of the certs.

He also said that you get BR far, far faster than you can train the certs you unlock, so I doubt having all certs trained will even be an issue for a year or two.

Yeah I think it works somewhat like Eve Online where the certs will have ranks and ranking up gives you bonuses and/or is a prerequisite for certain equipment. The first rank is really fast, while subsequent ranks take exponentially longer time to train. That would also be consistent with what we have been told so far.

[basti]

That's not the issue. It's the fact that you can even do that. Classes don't belong in PS in my opinion. The certification system worked perfectly.

The certification system was broken since day one. You could always perform all roles at the same time, with only your battle rank as limitation.
And that caused hot dropping deci guys killing bfr by themselve, and one man army's with rexo, ha, med and engi.
And you could always switch characters, it just was annoying because you had to get back to the fight.

[Bags]

Well to be honest BFR has one pilot so it makes sense that a grunt with a lot of grunt certs can 1v1 them.

[dachlatte]

you dont have a 100 peole of your outfit online every night to fill all the specific roles. what if the guys with the more "exotic" certs are not online? that only limits your options/fun.
if you can change classes you still can do all the fun stuff with your m8s.

and you need to put alot of "skill-time" into the classes to be able to do the advanced stuff. otherwise its just the basics.

i think the classes are a great addition to the game. you are more versatile. if the battle changes you can change with it and keep playing and having fun. there will not be a situation where you cant be effective because you dont have the right certs at the time.

[Zulthus]

you dont have a 100 peole of your outfit online every night to fill all the specific roles. what if the guys with the more "exotic" certs are not online? that only limits your options/fun.
if you can change classes you still can do all the fun stuff with your m8s.

and you need to put alot of "skill-time" into the classes to be able to do the advanced stuff. otherwise its just the basics.

i think the classes are a great addition to the game. you are more versatile. if the battle changes you can change with it and keep playing and having fun. there will not be a situation where you cant be effective because you dont have the right certs at the time.

Right, but then what'd be the point of specialization? No one would have any role.

[dachlatte]

Right, but then what'd be the point of specialization? No one would have any role.

you will have a certain role until you change it at a terminal. your skills(skill tree and player skill) will dictate how well you fill that role. its like changing your ship in eve

[artifice]

To these people that say this game isn't PlanetSide, of course it isn't, it is PlanetSide 2. You better learn to deal with change because there is going to be a lot of it.

Some of this complaining reminds of Everquest fans reminiscing about hell levels and experience loss. Nostalgia makes wonderful rose colored glasses.

[basti]

I think you Guys are just overreacting because you fear the new system. You fear it because you lack information about it.
Just chill and wait till beta. If it is broken, then will change it till it works.
As for myself, I often came into the situation where I just wanted to use av or do some sniper stuff for a bit, but couldn't. And I hated that.
But what I fear about the new system is organising a big tank attack just to see all enemy's spawn with av. And if that is going to be the case, then i'm going to make clear to the developers that they need to change it. :-)





We all want this game to be great, and I shall be damned if we can't make sure it is going to be great.

[SKYeXile]

I think you Guys are just overreacting because you fear the new system. You fear it because you lack information about it.
Just chill and wait till beta. If it is broken, then will change it till it works.
As for myself, I often came into the situation where I just wanted to use av or do some sniper stuff for a bit, but couldn't. And I hated that.
But what I fear about the new system is organising a big tank attack just to see all enemy's spawn with av. And if that is going to be the case, then i'm going to make clear to the developers that they need to change it. :-)





We all want this game to be great, and I shall be damned if we can't make sure it is going to be great.

precisely, people should not have unlimited cert available to them...think about it in a small scale fight:

guy gets kiled by a quasar, then pulls out a pounder.
somebody gets skeeter farmed, pulls out an AA max.
guy gets sniped, pulls a skeeter.
guy gets killed by infantry, pulls a MAX.

its just lame.


I think people should build their character the way they want to play or their outfit plays, yes people should have afew options open to them, its not going to be fun been awesome tank commander guy when there is no tank battle. perhaps your specialisation points are only active if you're currently selected the class those points are in. in ether case i dont think you should be able to bounce around from infill to pilot, to heavy weapons to max...you should pick perhaps.

I thought that PS2 could work(and others in FC) if you choose say 2-3 classes. of the following, and only had those certs available to you.

Aerial - assault - Comes with pilot armour & nano dispenser
Cert options include: Skeeta, reava

Aerial - support - comes with pilot armour & nano dispenser
Cert options include: Lib, gal, gal gunship, loadstar

Ground - assault - comes with nano dispenser
Cert options include: lightning, MBT, skyguard, all other buggys

Ground - support - comes with Advanced nano dispenser
Cert options include: AMS, Deliver variants,

Infantry - Assault - comes with Rexo
Cert options include: Heavy assault, AV, sniping, elite assault

Infantry - mechanised assault
Cert options include: AI MAX, AV MAX, AA MAX.

Infantry - support
cert options include: Advanced med, adv hack,

Infantry - Defensive assault.
cert options include: Combat engineering + its variants...(if they still exist, hopefully not), Special assault.

Stealth - comes with infiltrator suit.
Cert options include: Advanced pistols, phantasm

all other stuff would be common pool.

[Bruttal]

Tell ya what all those who are complaining saying "just stop work on ps2" "shut it down" yall can keep subbed to PS1 we don't need ya in ps2 wanking off to your mom. just my 2 cents

[Rarntogo]

Why are so many people getting ahead of themselves here? We really have no idea of the gameplay aspects yet. We have only been teased with ideas and concepts and yet some people are already to scrap the game because it isnt exactly what they want or isnt like the original? Come on guys, take a Valium. Chill out a bit. This is a new game and while the devs have promised us that they will take our input into account, this is their game. They have to make it profitable for them and there is absolutely no way to make everyone happy no matter what they do. Lets wait till we see the game, play the game and wait to pass judgement till we know for sure how everything works together. If PS1 was perfect there would be no reason to change it but it isnt and there definitely are plenty of reasons to change things. Lets have a little patience and stop making decisions about something we know almost nothing about.
As for the specialization or "classes"... I dunno about you guys but I changed certs every time I played. Before I logged off I would drop Unimax (for example) and the next day at login drop HA and would have 10 skill points to use for whatever the squad needed that day depending on who was logged in. If we needed a hacker, I was a hacker, Needed a medic, I was a medic. If we were doing Gal drops and Lib runs... You get the picture... It's about versatile specialization, not moment to moment, but day to day. I think this is all they are giving us but in reality.... who knows?! Lets just wait and see. :)

[dachlatte]

guy gets kiled by a quasar, then pulls out a pounder.
somebody gets skeeter farmed, pulls out an AA max.
guy gets sniped, pulls a skeeter.
guy gets killed by infantry, pulls a MAX.

its just lame.


why is that lame? everyone can do that. its not like someone gets an advantage. might be challange but thats a good thing in my book

and why do you think about it in small scale fights? ps2 is all about the big scale epic fights. at that scale you wont even notice the instant class change. you will just face lots of everything. if an enemy was a different class 2 minutes ago....who cares?

[Zulthus]

I'm going to try if ofc, but I'm worried about the outcome. It feels like the the info given out that this'll just be Planetfield: Modern Warfare.

-Headshots
-More lethal weapons
-Squad spawning
-Instant vehicle entry
-Be anything you want when you want
-Much faster paced
-Instant-kill quick knife (not confirmed)

But, I still have no idea how it will turn out, so I'll have to play it to see.

[Rbstr]

The open class+ specialising skills system will create specialisation while allowing people to play multiple roles. It both increases the available diversity of any given group and creates an incentive for someone to go deeper into a role rather than the homogenise to the do-nearly-everything soldier that existed before

You can't be HA and a sniper at the same time. Sure you can go and swap loadouts...EXACTLY like you do now. There's plenty of cert points to have a diverse character, even when the cap was BR20 you could easily have a support role, HA, AV, rexo and a vehicle. You could even use nearly all of them at the same time. Now the game will force you to pick between those roles to some extent. Even if you have all of them the class system will make it so you only have access to a subset of those between terminal runs. It's really not that different.

Plus with the skills it's obvious that you aren't just going to get all of the skills right away and you'll either have to specialise in something and be good at it or be meh at everything at once.

[Zulthus]

The classes create specialisation while allowing people to play multiple roles.

You can't be HA and a sniper at the same time. Sure you can go and swap loadouts...EXACTLY like you do now. There's plenty of cert points to have a diverse character, even when the cap was BR2 you could easily have a support role, HA, AV, rexo and a vehicle. You could even use nearly all of them at the same time. Now the game will force you to pick between those roles to some extent. Even if you have all of them the class system will make it so you only have access to a subset of those between terminal runs. It's really not that different.

Plus with the skills it's obvious that you aren't just going to get all of the skills right away and you'll either have to specialise in something and be good at it or be meh at everything at once.

Then at some point, maybe a year or two, EVERYONE will be specialized in everything, and then what? PS1 didn't give you every cert at once, PS2 is.

[basti]

Then at some point, maybe a year or two, EVERYONE will be specialized in everything, and then what? PS1 didn't give you every cert at once, PS2 is.

Err, PS did, its called BR40.

And who said you can do everything perfectly at some point? We dont even know if you can really get all classes to the max. Apperently you can spend all your cert points in every class, but who said that those 20 cert points you get at br 20 is enough to unlock everything in a class? maybe each class has more than just options for 20 points, maybe you could spend 30 or even more?

[2coolforu]

PS only added BR40 right at the end when there were so few people it didn't matter, for the vast majority of the games sucessful life you could cert very little and had to specialize

[Zulthus]

Err, PS did, its called BR40.

And who said you can do everything perfectly at some point? We dont even know if you can really get all classes to the max. Apperently you can spend all your cert points in every class, but who said that those 20 cert points you get at br 20 is enough to unlock everything in a class? maybe each class has more than just options for 20 points, maybe you could spend 30 or even more?

And BR40 was the biggest mistake to Planetside. (Besides BFRs, which were worse...) Did you see the riot when they found out the "reward"?

[Volw]

Err, PS did, its called BR40.

And who said you can do everything perfectly at some point? We dont even know if you can really get all classes to the max. Apperently you can spend all your cert points in every class, but who said that those 20 cert points you get at br 20 is enough to unlock everything in a class? maybe each class has more than just options for 20 points, maybe you could spend 30 or even more?

"You're never stuck, capped or locked in to anything with the PS2 cert system. Recerting isn't necessary because there's no restrictions on how many certs you can have trained at a time, just how many you can take advantage of on any given loadout."

So you get to choose which certs you want to 'equip' after unlocking them with BR and after training them.

[2coolforu]

So you get to choose which certs you want to 'equip' after unlocking them with BR and after training them.

No, you had a very limited amount of certs that you could use at once. If you wanted you could use them all together but you could never use EVERYTHING at once nor could you TRAIN everything at once. No matter what Battle Rank you were you could use any weapon or train anything, if you wanted to change it was a minimum of 24 hours between changes and you could only change one cert at a time.

It's totally different.

[Volw]

No, you had a very limited amount of certs that you could use at once. If you wanted you could use them all together but you could never use EVERYTHING at once nor could you TRAIN everything at once. No matter what Battle Rank you were you could use any weapon or train anything, if you wanted to change it was a minimum of 24 hours between changes and you could only change one cert at a time.

It's totally different.

I'm talking about PS2, Watson.

[Rbstr]

What if skills go up in time/cost exponentially with each additional skill you add.

You have absolute no idea how many skills anyone is going to have at a year, two years, three years into the game. I've played EVE for upwards of 6 years, I sill can't do anything close close to everything, though I have a couple maxed specialisations. There's no reason that wouldn't apply to PS2 in some way.
It's incredibly easy to devise some system of preventing complete specialisation.

[Lunarchild]

Actually, something I find likely is that you have a limited number of slots to place classes in you can swap to, limiting the things you can do at one time. If you want to do something else, you'll need to re-purpose a slot at some terminal, which should take at least a bit of time (5 - 10 minutes).

This will keep people playing a set of roles, which they at times can change. The important part here is: they cannot do it mid-battle. By the time you are done changing your classes, the thing that killed you last has long since left.

[dachlatte]

matt said somewhere you will be BR20 long before you have all the skills trained. how long exactly remains unknown though.

even if it only take 1-2year to unlock everything i dont see it ruining the game.

[BurnZ]

I'd just like to add my two cents on my understanding of the system. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I would like a more concrete answer as well. I apologize in advance for any stupid typos. I'm on my iPhone and it isn't the most friendly device for forum posting.

From what I have read and seen, my understanding of the system differs from what a few of you have stated. Your idea is that one earned skilled point can be spent in multiple trees which would clearly imply that eventually all the trees would be filled, removing specific roles.

I have taken what has been provided to us differently. I am under the impression that battle ranks grant you the ability to cert into more skills down a tree. So for example, a fifth tier level skill may require battle rank 10. The skill points you use to fill your trees are earned on a times basis.

My understanding is that even though the battle rank cap is 20, which I assume will grant you the ability to put skill points into the highest tier of certs, the skill is, as of yet, undefined. This means you could hypothetically earn let's say 200 skill points.

Most are thinking that if each tree has say 30 certs that we can put our points into then we only need 30 skill points to max every tree as each skill point can be used in each skill tree regardless of the number.

I believe that that isn't the case. I feel that each skill point can only be used in one tree but players will have the ability to earn even skill points to eventually fill every tree. So if you have earned say 45 skill points you can fill the heavy assault tree and have 15 points in the medic tree as well. This is consistent with what an earlier poster stated about a player having x points in heavy assault and y points in medic.

The reason cert or skill resets don't exist is because the potential exists to eventually fill every tree even if that requires 300 skill points which could take years.

This will essentially force players to fill a role, at least initially which is what the majority of us would like to see

Please correct me if I'm wrong but assuming this is how the system works I don't see any issues. Sure people will eventually have the potential for all skills, but that will be a long time from now.

[Brokinarrow]

I'd just like to add my two cents on my understanding of the system. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I would like a more concrete answer as well. I apologize in advance for any stupid typos. I'm on my iPhone and it isn't the most friendly device for forum posting.

From what I have read and seen, my understanding of the system differs from what a few of you have stated. Your idea is that one earned skilled point can be spent in multiple trees which would clearly imply that eventually all the trees would be filled, removing specific roles.

I have taken what has been provided to us differently. I am under the impression that battle ranks grant you the ability to cert into more skills down a tree. So for example, a fifth tier level skill may require battle rank 10. The skill points you use to fill your trees are earned on a times basis.

My understanding is that even though the battle rank cap is 20, which I assume will grant you the ability to put skill points into the highest tier of certs, the skill is, as of yet, undefined. This means you could hypothetically earn let's say 200 skill points.

Most are thinking that if each tree has say 30 certs that we can put our points into then we only need 30 skill points to max every tree as each skill point can be used in each skill tree regardless of the number.

I believe that that isn't the case. I feel that each skill point can only be used in one tree but players will have the ability to earn even skill points to eventually fill every tree. So if you have earned say 45 skill points you can fill the heavy assault tree and have 15 points in the medic tree as well. This is consistent with what an earlier poster stated about a player having x points in heavy assault and y points in medic.

The reason cert or skill resets don't exist is because the potential exists to eventually fill every tree even if that requires 300 skill points which could take years.

This will essentially force players to fill a role, at least initially which is what the majority of us would like to see

Please correct me if I'm wrong but assuming this is how the system works I don't see any issues. Sure people will eventually have the potential for all skills, but that will be a long time from now.

This is how I understood it as well. Either way though, I'm not going to dismiss the game before the final product is in my hands and I've had time to play through it. Even if there are things in the beta that we may or may not like, it's a beta for a reason. The things Sony is talking about now may very well be changed or scrapped all together for the final product because they figure out in beta "hey this doesn't work like we thought it would" or "well, it works but no one likes it, so kill it anyway". All of this 'what, why are the doing that for PS2? That's it, I'm not playing!!' is just typical pre-release drama :rolleyes:

[Warruz]

This is how i think of it.
Your BR effects how many skills you can have and what kind depending on your class

However you still need to train your skills, in the end all skills will be trained but you have a limited amount available to use depending on your class.

[Hamma]

Matt dropped by and clarified this a bit more today here (http://www.planetside-universe.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=572465#post572465).

[Chaff]

Appears I'm on the wrong thread, but I wanted to add my 2 cents to something I read the other day.

LOVE Malorn’s post on how the cert tree for the NC Vanguard could look. Very well thought-out….and leads to others being inspired enough to try to take Malorn’s vision to even higher ground.
I always thought the ADV ENG certs left room for a LOT of improvement. Maybe the ADV ENG tree can be tied-into Malorn’s train of thought. I like the idea that ADV ENG are the ones who have to develop the certs to upgrade armor, ammo, primary weapon, secondary weapons(s), speed, maneuverability, reload times, payload, stealth,…..
I LOVED the specialization of PS. I hope PS2 is constructed to build on this while also allowing the gamers to take the action to new heights.
EXAMPLE; only a Vanguard with at least ONE crew member at Max-Cert levels in the Tank Tree would be able to access the Max-upgrades that SUPER ADV ENG could add to tank(s), Lib,……but a Noob could hop into an open seat and get a taste of what ADV CERTs will bring him if he stays with the game – good for gameplay AND SOE.
Guys who take the time to play enough to earn the BEP, BR, points, certs,CR,…..would be rewarded. Put in the time, work as a team, get BEP, advance your certs, and help your empire optimize its technology. I thought that was the essence of PS. In PS2 I’d like to see a SUPER ADV ENG Cert Tree be the mechaism by which some kind of Super-Nano Enhancer installs upgrades to to land or air vehicles. A driver/pilot at the top of that vehicle 's Cert Tree would be the only one cpable of activating the upgrade(s).

On aircraft it could;
Upgrade payload of ammo/bombs, passengers, raise the caliber of ammo in weapons, add speed, improve armor, stealth, upgrade weapon systems, maneuverability,…

Tank would require at least one occupant to be “maxed” in the Tank Cert Tree in order to activate these upgrades (if done to a tank). A group of top-level ADV ENG could add multiple improvements to a Reaver – only a MAX-CERT Reaver pilot could activate the upgrades. This would help build on the camaraderie, cooperation, and specialization so many of us loved in PS.

It might make it harder for an arse-hole personality who is MAXed in his CERT Tree to get the help from others who know he’s an asshat. Yet, who wouldn’t want to ride/gun in a hopped-up vehicle variant ? Keeping specialization at a premium would also help minimize the one-man-army syndrome – which I am for. Outfits & squads that figure out which Cert Tree specializations to integrate into their unit will reap the BEP - and also best benefit the goals and objectives of their empire.

On Vehicles, The NANO-ENHANCER UNIT would:
Upgrade payload of passengers &/or ammo, improve weapons or add special variants such as Malorn touched on in his brilliant Vanguard post. Also, add speed, gunners, armor, raise impact of new specialized ammo…..
Like above, only SUPER AVDV ENG at the highest level would be able to attach the Nano-Enhancer Unit to a land or air vehicle. Each SUPER ADV ENG can add only one Upgrade per vehicle. 3 TOTAL upgrades can be active for any SUPER ADV ENG at a time. A vehicle (land, or air) can have no more than 3 active Nano-Enhancements added. They come with a 5 minute timer.

A SUPER ADV MED Cert Tree toon could peform special upgrades to soldiers - only utilized by a toon who has the relevant Cert Tree completed - to use a specific SUPER ADV MED Upgrade (Implant ?)
The Dev’s of PS2 have quite a challenge. I hope they and SOE remain accessible and open to input from the old players and also to the new ones that come in. I hope SOE gives something extra to the old players that stayed on PS and to those old players that come back to try PS2.

[basti]

Actually, something I find likely is that you have a limited number of slots to place classes in you can swap to, limiting the things you can do at one time. If you want to do something else, you'll need to re-purpose a slot at some terminal, which should take at least a bit of time (5 - 10 minutes).

This will keep people playing a set of roles, which they at times can change. The important part here is: they cannot do it mid-battle. By the time you are done changing your classes, the thing that killed you last has long since left.

This is actually a good idea. I fear that people would always just react and get the best gear for killing the most enemys, means if you have a Tank push coming in everyone goes AV.

Limiting your ability to switch classes to just a certain, preset amount would fix that to some degree, while still allowing you to switch classes fast. After all, nobody is going to do everything.

[Rbstr]

This is actually a good idea. I fear that people would always just react and get the best gear for killing the most enemys, means if you have a Tank push coming in everyone goes AV.

Because the original system didn't allow for that at all....It was never just as easy as going to a terminal and grabbing an AV gun or saved loadout.

And by never I mean, it happened at day 1.

[Volw]

This is actually a good idea. I fear that people would always just react and get the best gear for killing the most enemys, means if you have a Tank push coming in everyone goes AV.

Limiting your ability to switch classes to just a certain, preset amount would fix that to some degree, while still allowing you to switch classes fast. After all, nobody is going to do everything.

That's why you will need tank/air/infantry push to succeed. I'd say it's pretty win and it counters all of the tactics based on pure zerg. (Reaver spam comes to mind)

[Tigersmith]

Yea i liked the feeling I was a one man army :)

But seriously ...this is gonna be kinda strange..

[kaffis]

I was under the impression you would still have something like 20-24 Certs to spend between classes. But if I am reading this right that means at any given time you might be a BR 20 Engie / Medic /Light assault / Heavy assault all at the change of a terminal. This seems to go WAAAAAY against any sense of specialization as its all at the drop of a hat if I am correct in this I think THIS will be the most damaging to any sense of specialization in planetside.

Is it just me or does this explanation of classes make less sense than the initial class descriptions?
The way I've read/interpreted talk about the skill tree is that there are hundreds (or I might have even heard *thousands* at one point) of certs, related to upgrades as well as base weapons/vehicles.

So I'm anticipating that the time-unlock training will be accumulating these multitudes of certs, and that you pick up to a couple dozen of them (based on your battle rank) to apply to each class, within class restrictions.

So yeah, I can have *access* to everything after a year of playing. But that doesn't mean that, between all my classes, I've got everything *trained*.

The thing the time unlocking does is it forces you to specialize and focus in that initial year, and I think that's a good concept. Yeah, I can already be BR15, but I've spent all my time unlocking all the goodies in engineer, so my medic role is still a newbie, despite being BR15. Eventually, I'll have spent enough time on the skill tree that I can have a kitted out BR20 engineer AND a kitted out BR20 medic, but each of those are only using 20 of the appropriate certs out of a hundred (for that class), so they're still very different and customized to the way I play engineer and medic.

At least, this is what I'm hoping.

[ShowNoMercy]

they added classes and quick switching to appeal to casual plays. Give them a break, you are comparing it to CoD because they are taking ideas from CoD. they want to have the player base CoD and Eve have but without sacrificing what PS is at its core.
One class at a time, but instead of having it certed hours in advance your squad commander will call for switches on the fly, thus decreasing down times and increasing casual player count. The casual players outnumber us, and their money is just as good. So pick your fights carefully, as there are several features being added for the casual player and we as the future vets can only get so much changed.

[Volw]

they added classes and quick switching to appeal to casual plays. Give them a break, you are comparing it to CoD because they are taking ideas from CoD. they want to have the player base CoD and Eve have but without sacrificing what PS is at its core.
One class at a time, but instead of having it certed hours in advance your squad commander will call for switches on the fly, thus decreasing down times and increasing casual player count. The casual players outnumber us, and their money is just as good. So pick your fights carefully, as there are several features being added for the casual player and we as the future vets can only get so much changed.

Both were in Tribes 1, back in 98' ... but I guess you are too young to know that.

Ah, almost forgot about Team Fortress for Quake - in 96'

[Chaff]

I'm saving up for a new gaming rig, so I'm glad the release of PS2 is not here yet.

I remember earning the right ot choose a "beret", no helmet (OMG), or not. It took all night to clean myself after my bladder exploded from the thrill of it all. There will be new content that older players will have to learn to accept/tolerate/ignore.

.....we will be able to wear "buffs" in PS2 ? whatever. I'd rather be able to play my character in super-agile mode....in the BUFF....maybe just a neon-colored thong and custom body paint with a Burning Man / Greatful Dead kind of theme (which "I" could CUSTOMIZE) ..... and all this Cert Tree would grant me is the ability to bite, claw, scrath, or bitch slap, (and my macros would have a built-in lisp of my choosing).....10 minutes to kill someone AFK....could be part of a Flame Cert Tree....no run mode.....but very fast in "skip" or "skedaddle" mode.....

(may not be my BEST idea, but I'm onto someting)

[dachlatte]

stuff
they see you trollin, they hatin

[MasterChief096]

Perhaps we will have to cert classes and uncert classes as in PS1.

Theoretically we can advance every class to maximum specialization, but there is a still a 6-12 hour timer between switching classes?

This would make the most sense to me.

[Punker]

I'm more interested to know if the whole choose a "class and customize with certs" system means you spawn as that class - or if you spawn in your bday suit like in PS1. I hope it's the latter/

[nathanebht]

Had thought I understood certs but think I'll just wait for the expose. They are still iterating.

Higby, "More advanced roles (Such as MAX or Liberator) may require advancement down a specific skill tree to unlock, for instance you may need to spend some time training Heavy Assault to unlock MAX skill trees, that way everyone can't just spawn an untrained powerful vehicle / weapon and still be very powerful with it despite not having any of the bells and whistles unlocked. This is something we're still playing with internally, we're doing a lot of iteration on these systems - when they're totally locked down you guys can expect to see a full expose on them get released."

[Chaff]

they see you trollin, they hatin

trollin ? Me ?
nope
....just tryin' to get a feel for peoples sense of humor on these pages. I did leave the game within a year of BFRs arriving.
I don't expect to be "accepted" here after 5 or 6 dumbass posts, but I defintely don't merit a troll reference. People who take cheap shots from behind the safety of their keyboard are bullshiters & cowards by nature.
......if you are directing the troll comment at me......you don't know me yet - until you do, STFU.

[2coolforu]

I think the idea is it would take far too long to learn all the certs, similar to how it is in EVE were it would take decades to get every skill

[dachlatte]

...you don't know me yet - until you do, STFU.
oh a little touchy, are we?

[Headrattle]

My problem with the way some of you guys are describing it, is that if all classes are available without a cert, and the game is based on player skill, then how can a entry level guy not be as powerful as someone who has been around for a long time.

But on the flip side...

If there isn't a cert system, and you can't do anything as well as someone who has been playing a while and thus higher skill tree unlock.

Here is my point. With PS1 a BR4 scatter Max is just as powerful (not counting implants) as a BR 20 scatter max. The rest is down to player skill. Now, true, the BR20 Max can ALSO drive a tank, and has access to HA, which the BR4 does not. Essentially the BR20 guy has access to more options. But he doesn't have access to all. Example: In the game today I am a tank driver but I also have a slew of support certs. I was trying to hold a tower. I don't have HA or Max even though I am BR20. There is infantry coming to rehack that tower. I need support, to be a success. I simply won't be able to hold the base from everything that is happening. Now, I could have certs better for that situation and had more success, but I don't. I am primarily a Tank Driver and when I am not driving that, I am helping others. This is the playstyle I enjoy. However, I am unable to handle all situations. Just some. If I had different certs, I would be able to do well at that situation, but not others. You can do a few things, but never everything. The fact that the game is based upon player skill helps this along.


Now you get rid of that. Let's say that in PS2 (assuming we understand this correctly) you can be a Max class. Then switch to a hacker or fly a reaver just by changing classes. One of two things happens.

Back to the tower example:
Either: I can change classes and be able to hold off the other guys because I am an Assault class now. Even though I don't normally play that. And I can have reasonable success because it is a player skill game and not a character skill game. The problem with that is that I can change into any class and have reasonable success with it. So why advance?

Or: I can change classes and still be screwed because I haven't been able to spend time in that class as I need to be competitive. Now the game is much less player skill and much more character skill. Now we are entering MMORPG world.

The reason I say this is because of the following statement from Higby https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DAqjmgQptK1zVwhiWa-6prWH0NlKot3NJo_Umvg8n2g/edit?hl=en_US&pli=1 (here)
If you want to put all your advancement time into Reavers you can do that, and you'll have a more maneuverable, durable and powerful vehicle with plenty of options for secondary weapons and fun gadgets.

So... higher "advancement time" now has much clearer benefits that mean that the new guys aren't able to compete nearly as well. If you think that Planetside is bad now! Wait till you are a new guy and a very advanced reaver pilot is attacking your reaver and he has a "more maneuverable, durable and powerful vehicle with plenty of options for secondary weapons and fun gadgets" while you just have your silly reaver. This seems to fly in the face of other things they have said.

In other words, it is very confusing how they will be able to do both. Planetside BR unlocks one thing. Options. Not damage. Not maneuverablity, not durability. You have more options. And it does this well because as you increase in your ability with your current certs, you can pick up more. You can complain that the BR20 guys can sneak into a base, hack a terminal, and then have a terminal and hack out a Max. Fine, but that means he spent 10 points to do this. If you can switch to anything on the fly that means that stuff like that (not exactly like that of course) will be worse.

Just the way I see it. I really want PS2 to succeed (now that the kids are autonomous and can get their own damn food while daddy plays!) and I am afraid that this will make it very unfun. There are ideas I like, but there are ideas that I fear for.

Edit: Apparently there isn't going to be an inventory. So classes will really be classes. Which sounds like a lot of other games out there. Not a fan of the classes in general. But I will see how this goes.

[Headrattle]

Because the original system didn't allow for that at all....It was never just as easy as going to a terminal and grabbing an AV gun or saved loadout.

And by never I mean, it happened at day 1.

Provided that they had the cert. Remember that. Crucial point. You can't get it if you don't have the cert.

[MasterChief096]

They should just use the cert system and inventory system from PlanetSide 1. Best damn systems ever created for inventory and character management.

OR, as I previously mentioned, you should have to drop classes similar to how you drop certs in PlanetSide 1. If you want to switch from Assault Class to Tank Driver Class you have to suffer a six hour timer before switching to another class.

I am also a little fearful of long-time players having the more maneuvrable, durable, and powerful reaver, as stated earlier. It just doesn't seem right. I hope that they are really serious about listening to the community during beta when it comes to things like this.

[dachlatte]

They should just use the cert system and inventory system from PlanetSide 1. Best damn systems ever created for inventory and character management.

OR, as I previously mentioned, you should have to drop classes similar to how you drop certs in PlanetSide 1. If you want to switch from Assault Class to Tank Driver Class you have to suffer a six hour timer before switching to another class.
i still dont see why the class changing is such a bad thing? if you have 500 people on the other side you can not possible notice if the medic you just killed comes back as a max or whatever.
but the poor guy you killed has all the options to be effective in every battle. just as you do. that sounds like fun to me and we all play to have fun.


I am also a little fearful of long-time players having the more maneuvrable, durable, and powerful reaver, as stated earlier. It just doesn't seem right. I hope that they are really serious about listening to the community during beta when it comes to things like this.
on that point i agree with you. i have the same concern but i guess we have to wait for beta to see if it works or not.

[Headrattle]

i still dont see why the class changing is such a bad thing? if you have 500 people on the other side you can not possible notice if the medic you just killed comes back as a max or whatever.
but the poor guy you killed has all the options to be effective in every battle. just as you do. that sounds like fun to me and we all play to have fun.

The inclusion of classes would change the game of planetside on one of the basic levels. And we only have real information of the current game of planetside. A lot of the balance was because of the cert aspect, and a lot of the game will have to change to include it. The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

Example:
You drive vehicles. You and your vehicle outfit are making a raid on a base. Now under planetside some of the guys will have the AV certs that will destroy you. Not all. So they see the vehicles coming and they say "incoming vehicles" and those with the certs will be able to get rid of you. You lose some vehicles and the dead raise themselves at a nearby tower. They still have anti-infantry to fight them off. But no player is able to do everything because they don't have the certs to do everything.

Now, to a class based system. This is the way it seems to work in lots of class based FPS's that I have played. You run in with vehicles. The defenders go all AV, kill your Vehicles and then go all Anti-infantry and kill your infantry. With the ability to fill any tactical gap instantly, it is harder to take advantage of any tactical gap. It becomes a grudge match, duking it out until the other team decides to log off.

Enter in the second fear. If you are already able to do everything, then the only way that experience will matter is if you are able to do somethings much better through an increase in damage, maneuverability, or whatever. Thus, those who start the game aren't able to compete with those who have been playing a while. That is unfun. Much more unfun then classes are fun.

[Volw]

The inclusion of classes would change the game of planetside on one of the basic levels. And we only have real information of the current game of planetside. A lot of the balance was because of the cert aspect, and a lot of the game will have to change to include it. The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

Example:
You drive vehicles. You and your vehicle outfit are making a raid on a base. Now under planetside some of the guys will have the AV certs that will destroy you. Not all. So they see the vehicles coming and they say "incoming vehicles" and those with the certs will be able to get rid of you. You lose some vehicles and the dead raise themselves at a nearby tower. They still have anti-infantry to fight them off. But no player is able to do everything because they don't have the certs to do everything.

Now, to a class based system. This is the way it seems to work in lots of class based FPS's that I have played. You run in with vehicles. The defenders go all AV, kill your Vehicles and then go all Anti-infantry and kill your infantry. With the ability to fill any tactical gap instantly, it is harder to take advantage of any tactical gap. It becomes a grudge match, duking it out until the other team decides to log off.

Enter in the second fear. If you are already able to do everything, then the only way that experience will matter is if you are able to do somethings much better through an increase in damage, maneuverability, or whatever. Thus, those who start the game aren't able to compete with those who have been playing a while. That is unfun. Much more unfun then classes are fun.

I have yet to see a proper large fight in PS1, when there are either only ground vehicles, only air vehicles (reaver spam doesn't count!) or only infantry.

Switching classes in both cases means getting off the wall or defensive position for a few minutes when the enemy will be able to push through.

Also, with BR25+, it's hard not to pack HA/AV/Eng/Med.

[dachlatte]

The more changes you make, you could make this a very unfun game.

why does the glass have to be half empty all the time. and i dont know about you but when i see matt talk about the game he sounds really passionate.
I have yet to see a proper large fight in PS1, when there are either only ground vehicles, only air vehicles (reaver spam doesn't count!) or only infantry.

Switching classes in both cases means getting off the wall or defensive position for a few minutes when the enemy will be able to push through.

Also, with BR25+, it's hard not to pack HA/AV/Eng/Med.
^this
and also...alot of people these days say: but the enemy can just switch to a better suited class and kill me.
think of it the other way around. you can do the same.

[Volw]

^this
and also...alot of people these days say: but the enemy can just switch to a better suited class and kill me.
think of it the other way around. you can do the same.

I think there is going to be a lot of whining because of that among PS vets.

Why? Loosing Rambo status will hurt!

We can HA/AV/Heal/Repair/Hack/CE without changing loadouts. That's 6 classes 6 right there! :eek:

[Headrattle]

I think there is going to be a lot of whining because of that among PS vets.

Why? Loosing Rambo status will hurt!

We can HA/AV/Heal/Repair/Hack/CE without changing loadouts. That's 6 classes 6 right there! :eek:

Yeah... Try that. You won't have any ammo, and when you had a lower BR ceiling, you wouldn't be any good at any of that. I don't like the high BR either. But that isn't really the point. I more question the implications involved. If you can be anything then they need to make the experience aspect worth it. As such, they will have to make the more experienced players do more damage, or be faster or whatever. With PS1 it was options for the higher BR players, not power. With classes I don't see anyway it couldn't be power. In fact he says it will be power. Up to 20% damage.

why does the glass have to be half empty all the time. and i dont know about you but when i see matt talk about the game he sounds really passionate.
People can be passionate about a bad idea. Ever play the PS1 Beta without the Lattuce system? It was horrible. People would run past each other to hack the base you just hacked ignoring you. There was more experience in hacking then fighting. You don't think that they were passionate about that? It took a player to come up with the idea of the lattuce system He had picks that he made and everything. They took most of his idea (though not everything) and made the lattuce system. But it wasn't easy. They simply didn't think about the implications of the none lattuce system.

You don't think that Smokejumper was passionate about the BFRs? He was pimping them left and right. They were all stoked. Yet... it was a bad idea. Or the caves? Was that a good idea? They were very passionate about it at the time.

I am just throwing the question out there. I really like planetside back in the day. Then they made some changes and introduced some bad ideas and people left. Which is my point. If you get too far away from what made planetside fun, will we enjoy it?

The Cert system was a good system. It just seems like they have an idea of making your character more customizable. Which is a good idea. But to do that they have to throw away the cert system as we know it. Could it be good? Yes. Could it be bad? Yes. I am more interested in how they will do this without giving the higher level players an advantage with damage or whatever. Believe it or not, 20% is a lot. That would kill an FPS. You are flying a reaver and getting your ass kicked because the other reaver's rockets do 20% more damage? And he is faster? And he has something that makes you do less damage? I am simply asking the question "Is that wise?" How can you attract new players like that?

Not all of the stuff they talked about is bad. In fact most of it isn't. The territory thing is wonderful. Excellent idea. The resources, I hold my judgement on, but I can see the potential. But I am stoked. There are a lot of things that they are talking about that the PS community wanted 6 years ago.

[Volw]

Believe it or not, 20% is a lot. That would kill an FPS.

noob vs someone with all unlocks


CoD4-6 -> better weapons, mods and perks

BF2 -> better weapons

BFBC2 -> arguably better weapons and unlocks (magnum rounds come to mind)

Should I go on?


Even PS arguably gives more power with levels by allowing to turn one into a multi-tasking super-soldier.

[Headrattle]

noob vs someone with all unlocks


CoD4-6 -> better weapons, mods and perks

BF2 -> better weapons

BFBC2 -> arguably better weapons and unlocks (magnum rounds come to mind)

Should I go on?


Even PS arguably gives more power with levels by allowing to turn one into a multi-tasking super-soldier.

None of those games make it 20% more damage then the other guys. Slightly more damage? Yes. But not 20% better. Have you played those games? Most of the unlocks are for prestige then actual damage or ability. In CoD many of the weapons you get later still aren't that much better then the weapons you get at a lower level. Even then, CoD is a bad game for PS2 to model after. So is Battlefield in my opinion.

Yes. Taken to extremes PS can do that. But before the higher BR cap it wasn't possible to get too over powered. Like I said, making a guy who could sneak in, hack a base and then turn into a max and guard the CC could be done at 10 certs. That isn't very high of a level. In the end, you were given more options, but not more power. There is a difference.

[Volw]

None of those games make it 20% more damage then the other guys. Slightly more damage? Yes. But not 20% better. Have you played those games? Most of the unlocks are for prestige then actual damage or ability. In CoD many of the weapons you get later still aren't that much better then the weapons you get at a lower level. Even then, CoD is a bad game for PS2 to model after. So is Battlefield in my opinion.


Have I played those games? I think I should ask you the same.

BFBC2 Magnum rounds alone are +25% damage. Not counting in other unlockable gear, weapons and mods.

BF2 - not played for ages, but back in the day, unlocks were vastly superior to other weapons

CoD - stopping power adds 40% more damage. Not even counting the fact better weapons require unlocking and weapon mods give you even more advantages.


I think we can clearly see all of the above add MUCH more than 20% and I don't see any of those games are dead as you claim.

[Headrattle]

Have I played those games? I think I should ask you the same.

BFBC2 Magnum rounds alone are +25% damage. Not counting in other unlockable gear, weapons and mods.

BF2 - not played for ages, but back in the day, unlocks were vastly superior to other weapons

CoD - stopping power adds 40% more damage. Not even counting the fact better weapons require unlocking and weapon mods give you even more advantages.


I think we can clearly see all of the above add MUCH more than 20% and I don't see any of those games are dead as you claim.

To be fair, Stopping Power is available very early in the game. You can get it as soon as you can create your class. So that doesn't exactly disprove my point.

However, you have made your point. I wasn't aware that magnum rounds did 25% damage.

I will admit that those perks and abilities were what I always saw as a weak point in those games. I much prefer the PS cert tree then the "I kill more!" tree. Plus, in my opinion CoD and especially BF has lots of flaws. (but still fun at times.)

[dachlatte]

BFR, lattice and caves
yes those changes had a huge impact but i cant see how the class system can fail so bad. lets hope the beta doesnt proof me wrong.

as i said earlier. i agree with you on the damage bonus. i dont like it and i didnt like it in bfbc2. magnum rounds and the other upgrades can be very frustrating for a new player.

[Hamma]

The lattice was added in pretty short order, they knew that was bad.

And I'm sure they would admit that BFR's and Caves were bad ideas now as well if you asked them.

[Coreldan]

The original APB had something like a 20% difference in output on a maxed char and a new character. Given, these people would've beaten the new players through experience as well, but for an online shooter, just about everyone found the model unacceptable.

During the discussions on APB forums about that, Planetsides "horizontal progress" was much praised. I don't mind veterans having more options easily at hand and all that, but I would NEVER EVER go down the road of more raw output just cos ur an older player.

[exLupo]

As a few others in this thread have noted, this system is not new nor is it untested. It's fairly clear that there are EVE vets on the PS2 dev staff. Both from some of the comments made in regards to the sandbox and econ systems as well as the timelock skill progression.

From the way things have been said in various videos and posts, every player will slowly unlock tiers of basic gear. Any player will be able to pinch hit for any basic role. However, in the example above, MAX may be only available to players who have allocated skill time to HA. If you take that back to EVE, that time allocation may be a serious investment.

I've been playing EVE off and on since '04 and my oldest character can fly a large variety of basic (known as Tech 1) ships. Frigates to battleships. Mining barges to haulers. However, for nearly every Tech 1 there is a Tech 2 equivalent and even Tech 3 in some instances. My best can only fly two empires (of four, not including pirate factions) Tech 2 ships for a handful of types. Only one of Tech 3. And then you have to get weapon skills and I've only unlocked one type of missile and two types of lasers. On top of that there is an entire skill system for industry and market management and much, much more.

The point I'm making (yea yea, get to it) is that there will likely be a ton of paths and not enough time to follow them all deeply before the servers eventually shut down in time for PlanetSide 3. Even if everyone can switch to basic AV to help repel a vehicle push, if those vehicle pilots are specialists who have put in years to perfect their skillset, they'll have an advantage assuming "skill" levels are still the same.

On top of all of this, Smed was talking about spending finite resources on customization in a recent panel video. Roll this again back to EVE. You can get Tech1 guns damn near everywhere and for pennies. Tech2 is less available and 10, 100 or 1000 times more expensive depending on how desired the gear is. The system looks like it will be balanced on two facets. Making the choice between a wide but so-so skill set or a narrow but powerful specialization and then dealing with resource scarcity to limit the tools you actually have.

I would be fairly surprised if they made deep specialization in any one tree something you could realistically accomplish in less than six or more months. Total fantasy but it could go something like this: Go half way up MA to HA. Max out HA. Go up Agile to unlock Rexo. Max out Rexo. Max out ATV. Max out Medic but Rexo can't use the field medic backpack so you're limited to basic healing guns. You skip AV because you can't fit both HA and AV on your one "large" back slot. Since you're a perfectionist, you've taken all of these skills to 5 (EVE has a 1-5 system) and you're 8-12 months in. Now you're tired of being a heavy boot and want to spend time in tanks. Welcome back to Day 1. Rinse/Repeat.

And make sure your empire has the right resource flow or you won't be able to use the specialist weapon variants you've unlocked.

edit: I don't think the time-to-skill will be in EVE's ballpark. That's just not the kind of investment FPS gamers can usually keep the attention span for. However, from what has been said, the impression I get is one where, if you specialize, you'd best get good with basic tools in other trees for a good while.

[Malorn]

That is certainly one way it can go, but that said...

In the Public Panel Video, Matt said this

Day 1 you'll be able to switch between playing a Medic, playing an Engineer, driving a Tank, all those sorts of things. But later on as you advance your character you'll be able to either really deeply specialize in any one of those trees or be a generalist and sort of pick and choose the certifications you want to get.

If you can do all of those things in one day then it seems as though the time to train certs (at least the core certs required to fill the role) will be very quick, while true specialization might take a lot longer. This is in stark contrast to EVE where you need months just to be remotely competitive.

I think those of us that have played EVE are a bit fearful of the huge time investment it took to do anything useful in EVE. It does not sound like that is the case here from what Matt describes. The difference between an ultimate Vanguard Driver and the Day 1 Vanguard driver doesn't seem like it will be that big, other than maybe more upgrade options for the ultimate vannie driver.

[exLupo]

I think the core concepts will be very similar but PS2 will give you freebies and the time-to-unlock sliders will be much different.

Everyone gets 1 rank of Frigate(MA), Cruiser(HA), Battleship(Tank), Mining Barge(AMS) and Indy(Galaxy). You'll have to train Cruiser (HA) to unlock Battlecruiser (MAX). In EVE, Lv5 for 1x skills are currently, before implants, about 7 days total from inject to max? Think maybe 3 in PS with in-combat bonus factored. And also without higher multipliers for anything or the stacked depth of something like a Fleet Command ship that takes 30 days of X, 20 more days of Y and then another 170 days of Leadership skills to even begin to make it worthwhile. EVE Lite. I'm in control of my fate and your choices are important but I don't have to dedicate, say, 280 days to a charisma bender I'm still avoiding.

[Hamma]

Yea EVE was very deep skill tre wise, I think we are going to see a more hybrid concept of that type of training.

[megamold]

i would just like to make a small point that alot of ppl seem to be neglecting,
not everyone will WANT to play every role even tough it might be possible to do so.
for ex: im a heavy assault first and a sniper second i try my hand at some vehicle driving but not often. why? because i mostly like to play a assault and sniper role
i suck at infiltrating
i suck at flying

so why would i want to put time into certing these? cause im not gonna use them.
there will be players who will want to do everything and they will need to put in the effort to get to the point where they can do everything but i do not think this is true for the majority of players.
i will most likely cert for a mosq at some point but mostly to do some exploring and have some transport, but i'm not gonna waste my time with it in battle cause i would be having more fun on the ground with a gun in my hands :)

personally im gonna start with some certs in heavy assault and basic sniper certs and upgrade my assault first and my sniper when its required


i have faith in the dev team and i'm sure ps2 will not be ps1 but i dont think thats a bad thing
hell if they just rehashed ps1 and called it ps2 i would most likely be pissed off for them not taking it seriously, but they obviously are so im happy :)