Certs & Customization - how it might look

[Malorn]

I just had a ton of ideas hit me in the car this morning on how these cert trees could get huge with tons of options and extreme precision control over what certs a role has available.

I'm going to give an example using the Vanguard only to illustrate just how much customization SOE could have in store for us and what sort of certs we could have.

Given there's 20 ranks to spread out these certs in and other possible prereqs. They talked about having a very big skill tree, so I started thinking about possible certs for a vanguard. Each upgrade option they provide could be a specific cert. This gives very precise control over what classes have what certs and capabilities. It also allows some classes to have a limited set of customization (for example, they could give engineers the ability to drive a vanguard, but not give them many of the advanced options below, while the dedicated "vanguard driver" class has access to everything).



Imagine if you had a cert set like this...

-- root cert --
* Vanguard basic - gives access to the vanguard, main gun only, 10m vehicle reuse timer.

-- secondary gun certs
* Vanguard mulit-purpose gun - gives access to the vanguard's 20mm gun (no resource cost)
* Vanguard AI mortar - alternative to 20mm, a ground-pounder of sorts [moderate resource cost]
* Vanguard AI scattercannon - alternative to 20mm, a narrow-cone scattercannon [moderate resource cost - NC specific upgrade, designed for urban combat]
* Vanguard AA flak - alternative to the 20mm, a set of flak rounds [moderate resource cost]
* Vanguard AA sparrow - alternative to the 20mm, a short burst of sparrow missiles (higher impact damage, lower overall dps to the flak) [expensive resource cost]

-- main gun options --
* Vanguard 150mm hellfire - lowers damage of the 150mm cannon by 20% but increases splash damage radius by 50%
* Vanguard 150mm tank buster - lowers splash damage radius by 50% but increases damage by 20%
* Vanguard 200mm artillery - puts a 200mm howitzer in place of the 150mm cannon. This lowers speed and maneuverability by 20%, lowers rate of fire by 33%, but increases damage by 100% and splash radius by 50% [expensive resources]

note: these main gun options could be different ammo types and the cert gives access to them

-- handling/armor options --
* Vanguard maneuverability [has 3 ranks] - option to trade 5% armor for 4% faster speed and 4% more maneuverability per rank [resource cost varies depending on rank used]
* Vanguard juggernaut [has 3 ranks] - option to trade 4% speed & 4% maneuverability for 7% more armor per-rank
* Vanguard amphibous - option to trade 20% armor, 10% speed, and 10% maneuverability for the ability to make the vanguard amphibious (just an example of the type of things they could do here)

-- General options --
* Vanguard rapid deployment [has 5 ranks] - lowers the vanguard vehicle timer by 1 minute per rank.
* Vanguard efficient manufacturing [has 5 ranks] - lowers resource cost of vanguard options by 5% per rank
* Vanguard adaptive camoflauge [NC unique trait] - option to add the NC Empire's adaptive camoflauge to the vanguard armor [expensive resource cost]
* Vanguard shielding [NC unique trait] - option to add the NC Empire's toggleable regenerative shield to the vanguard (firing lowers the shield, slowly drains energy over time and recharges when not in use, damage removes charge) [very expensive resource cost]

You can see from this example that there's a TON of of stuff they can do for each vehicle beyond simply providing access to it. People who want to specialize in one vehicle or style of gameplay could certainly do it. The "general" options were meant to be cert fillers and entry-barriers for people who wanted. Getting all of those certs above should take on the order of a month at least.

Note that all of the vanguard cert options above are tradeoffs. There are non-power related pure-bonuses, such as the veh timer lowering and the manufacturing. Those dont' affect gameplay. One of the options was interesting - the adaptive camoflauge. That's just an idea I wanted to throw out of something that they could do tha tis empire-specific and fits with the "guerrilla tactics" style of the NC. Its not a direct combat advantage, so it doesn't make the tank any more powerful than it was before or do anymore damage, but it could help the tank avoid detection and help mask NC troop movements in general.

Another one I wanted to point out was the "scattercannon" upgrade as a replacement for the 20mm. Another NC-specific upgrade, this one is designed for close-quarters urban combat use where infantry may be very close to the tank and the mortar and 20mm is not particularly effective. Again - its a tradeoff, and one that costs you resources.

These are just some ideas that came to mind on what all they could do with a complex cert tree full of upgrades. They could expand these at any time and choose a subset to go into any role. Perhaps only a dedicated "Vanguard driver" role can use them all.

You can imagine guns and gun upgrades could be the same way and have similar style upgrades. Imagine a few certs that offer different optical upgrades, from a red-dot style sight to an ACOG-style for longer range, or a sound-suppressor that lowers damage slightly. Lots of possibilities, all of which could be certs.

I'm liking where they can go with this system.

[xcel]

Very good post..

[Volw]

Excellent stuff. I think that's what we're going to see.

There could also be upgrades that change the vehicle purpose completely.

For example an engineering variant, with +200% HP with potentially extremely strong frontal armour value, -50% speed and an extremely short range 400mm howitzer, designed to push through heavily fortified positions.

Or a repair variant, with no cannon and some sort of repair crane. Also capable of scavenging other tanks for resources.

Command variant would be interesting as well, with for example interlink capabilities, access to UAV / Satellite view.

This system gives them unlimited possibilities really and an easy way to add a lot of new variants fairly rapidly.

[Goku]

Between their comments relating to speed, handling, and using other weapon attachments I wouldn't be shocked seeing a similar skill tree. If it proves to be like this I am already planning on having an all out tank character, all out grunt, and mix between the two. That is probably going to be the best way for me to retain my current play style. My Outfit often ran tank columns with 5-10 tanks depending on how many we had on. I was normally the lead tank/commander, so I will need every bit of advantage I can get when doing this.

[Malorn]

yes, "variants" could actually be deep certs in a particular vehicle tree that modify it.

You could consider that "200mm mobile artillery" option that I listed as a Vanguard variant.

With this system though the difference between a variant as we knew them in PS1 and an upgrade to the base vehicle is very blurry.

It's easy to see how a Vulture could just be an upgrade on a Liberator that increases its speed & maneuverability, increases the damage on the tank busters, and loses splash damage & cluster bombs. It would also modify the nose gun so it has a higher burst damage but much lower rate of fire.

Variants are effectively a set of heavy modifications that significantly changes the role.

[Hamma]

Aye awesome post, I also believe this is very close to what we will see and I am excited about it. :D

There's so much opportunity with upgrading vehicles and weapons. It will make the gameplay and battles large scale but at the same time very different than they are now.

[Malorn]

Another couple ideas I had buried in there was the empire-specific weaponry upgrades and the Empire-specific traits.

In the case above I listed NC adaptive camoflauge as a possible empire trait that could be attached to almost any vehicle (and infantry). It would cost resources of course but it would serve as a common resource sink and give the NC as a whole a little flavor and uniqueness compared to the other empires. I got this idea from the camoflauge the NC infantry were wearing in the trailer and what Matt said about how they want the empires to be more distinct along their themes, with the NC being labeled as the "Guerrilla tactics" empire. Having units that are a little harder to spot with the naked eye seems like a good perk for the guerrilla warfare empire.

The shield that was on the MAX units might be another NC trait. Imagine a vanguard or enforcer with a toggle-able shield.


The VS might have speed-boosts as a unique trait. Their vehicles like magriders and threshers might have an optional afterburner-type speed boost, only obviously much shorter lived but could allow them that superior maneuverability and versatility that is their trademark. This is like a vehicle version of the MAX jump jets.

Another type of unique trait for VS might be the instant-ammo type switching. In PS1 it existednon the Quasar, Pulsar, and Beamer, but you could also see it being attached to other weapons and vehicle platforms.


The TR could have the "Overdrive" theme applied to more than just the MAXes. Imagine Overdrive on a Prowler for short-duration massive firepower increase. That really fits with their suppressive fire theme. Would have to be careful applying it though, it could easily be OP heh. This could be similar to the "lockdown" theme though. When vehicles use overdrive they could suffer a significant movement & maneuverability penalty during and shortly after it expires, as if they are using all available power to get a smuch damage output as possible. That would also put them in stark contrast with the VS, who's speed boost trait is just the opposte, and with the NC who has more defensive traits like camoflauge and shields.

I think you get the idea here. These sort of things could add empire-specific flavor and also be cert upgrades. Most importantly they are resource-sinks.

[razor851]

I personally don't like this type of shit at all. When I see a Reaver coming at me, I want to know exactly the amount of damage it's going to do to me, where its blind spots are, and how much armor it has. Adding this RPG type of customization is going to turn a lot of people like me away from even buying the game.

[2coolforu]

Sounds awesome, you are amazingly good at articulating ideas :P

[Malorn]

I personally don't like this type of shit at all. When I see a Reaver coming at me, I want to know exactly the amount of damage it's going to do to me, where its blind spots are, and how much armor it has. Adding this RPG type of customization is going to turn a lot of people like me away from even buying the game.

FPS games already have this style of customization.

In BFBC2 you have no idea whether the guy you're shooting is using magnum rounds or whether he's using body armor instead. You also don't know whether his shotgun has slugs or shot. Is it a pump shotgun or did he just use an automatic shotgun semi-auto? Impossible to know until you see the death camera.

I dont' see it any different here.

[2coolforu]

I was also thinking that we would get upgrades like

'Ablative Plating' - 10% less damage from energy weapons 10% more damage from KE weapons

This is an armor upgrade that provides protection from the Vanu Sovereignty's energy weaponry but makes you more vulnerable to the Terran's Kinetic weaponry. There would be an opposite like 'Composite armor' that protects against K.E. but is weak against energy weapons

'Explosive-Reactive Armor' - 10% Less damage from C.E. Weapons, 10% more damage from K.E. weapons.

This would be a Vanu upgrade that strengthens against NC weaponry but weakens against TR weaponry.

Alternatively weapons like rockets that infantry use could be C.E. damage and tank weaponry could be K.E. damage, so ERA armor would provide a bonus against Infantry AV weapons (for urban combat) and an upgrade like 'Armor Plates' or 'Composite Armor' 'Depleted Uranium Armor' would give a bonus against tank based weapons for open combat.

[razor851]

FPS games already have this style of customization.

In BFBC2 you have no idea whether the guy you're shooting is using magnum rounds or whether he's using body armor instead. You also don't know whether his shotgun has slugs or shot. Is it a pump shotgun or did he just use an automatic shotgun semi-auto? Impossible to know until you see the death camera.

I dont' see it any different here.
I know and I actually dislike BF and CoD games for that very reason. I guess I'm a retard but I prefer games like Quake where you can see the persons gun and react accordingly.

[Malorn]

That's a cool idea too, I like that.

If that had a visual cue even VS could learn to recognize it and shift their tactics appropriately. For example, VS could see the ablative plating and switch to conventional warheads (common pool weapons like decimator, thumper, etc).

[2coolforu]

I know and I actually dislike BF and CoD games for that very reason. I guess I'm a retard but I prefer games like Quake where you can see the persons gun and react accordingly.

Then make the upgrades have a visible component -> ERA upgrade would add ERA Tiles onto the glacis of the tank, so then you know you shouldn't use C.E. weaponry and instead you should use K.E. weaponry.

If the upgrades added visible differences then you can easily judge what the vehicles capabilities are. I mean, you can obviously see what changes a soldier has made to his armor and weapon as well, a scope is pretty visible as is increased armor or a silencer.

[2coolforu]

That's a cool idea too, I like that.

If that had a visual cue even VS could learn to recognize it and shift their tactics appropriately. For example, VS could see the ablative plating and switch to conventional warheads (common pool weapons like decimator, thumper, etc).

This would be were the upgrades or customization of ammunition would come in, also the common pool idea sounds cool. Perhaps there should be more common pool vehicles and weapons, in the trailer you said you spotted two types of rifle that the NC used, perhaps one is an NC 'type' with NC damage and one is a common pool that does a 'common' type of damage.

A bit like how on in EVE you have Thermal, Kinetic, EM and Explosive resists. There would be certain weapons and Empires that use Kinetic energy weapons, Chemical Energy weapons (C.E. or Explosives), Energy weaponry (Thermal?) and another form of weapon, perhaps just 'Common' or 'Tandem'

[Malorn]

There could very well be cosmetic changes to the vehicle as a result of these upgrades.

A more maneuverable vanguard might have a little bigger engine in the back, or a few less armor plates (or both) to indicate that it's been modified for additional speed and reduced armor.

the 200mm howitzer option would obviously have a much bigger cannon.

In the case of aircraft, they could have additional wing bits or tail-fins and stuff like that apart from the obvious aditional weaponry like rocket pods and what not.

They might plan on doing that, which could explain why they are cutting things like vehicle jacking. If there's cosmetic effects then the work load for Tramell's team goes through the roof. However with no vehicle jacking they can use resources that would be spent on the different versions of vehicles and instead work on cosmetic changes to accompany upgrades. From a balance perspective, Vehicle jacking would really screw with empire-specific upgrades and the cert system due to all the extra customization and possible empire-specific certs that may not exist on the other empires (or not have a direct counterpart).

Nothing prohibits cosmetic changes...in fact I owuld expect it for some of them, especially weapon changes. If my tank has a scattercannon secondary gun instead of a 20mm, that should be obvious, and any infantry spying the tank should see that and know that their best option is keeping distance.

[razor851]

Then make the upgrades have a visible component -> ERA upgrade would add ERA Tiles onto the glacis of the tank, so then you know you shouldn't use C.E. weaponry and instead you should use K.E. weaponry.

If the upgrades added visible differences then you can easily judge what the vehicles capabilities are. I mean, you can obviously see what changes a soldier has made to his armor and weapon as well, a scope is pretty visible as is increased armor or a silencer.
As long as every customization element has its own, unique visual along with it, then yes, this deep customization business could be a good thing. :)

[CutterJohn]

Between their comments relating to speed, handling, and using other weapon attachments I wouldn't be shocked seeing a similar skill tree. If it proves to be like this I am already planning on having an all out tank character, all out grunt, and mix between the two. That is probably going to be the best way for me to retain my current play style. My Outfit often ran tank columns with 5-10 tanks depending on how many we had on. I was normally the lead tank/commander, so I will need every bit of advantage I can get when doing this.

In eve, they make alts useless by letting you only train one character at a time.

This may be the way of things here as well. If it is, alts would be of minimal value.

I was also thinking that we would get upgrades like

'Ablative Plating' - 10% less damage from energy weapons 10% more damage from KE weapons

This is an armor upgrade that provides protection from the Vanu Sovereignty's energy weaponry but makes you more vulnerable to the Terran's Kinetic weaponry. There would be an opposite like 'Composite armor' that protects against K.E. but is weak against energy weapons

'Explosive-Reactive Armor' - 10% Less damage from C.E. Weapons, 10% more damage from K.E. weapons.

This would be a Vanu upgrade that strengthens against NC weaponry but weakens against TR weaponry.

Alternatively weapons like rockets that infantry use could be C.E. damage and tank weaponry could be K.E. damage, so ERA armor would provide a bonus against Infantry AV weapons (for urban combat) and an upgrade like 'Armor Plates' or 'Composite Armor' 'Depleted Uranium Armor' would give a bonus against tank based weapons for open combat.

I'm not terribly keen on the idea of resistance plating in an fps. The weapons will already have roles based on pure physical traits.. Adding resistances like that is a mechanic added to dice roll games to keep one weapon/spell from being useful for everything. In PS, no weapon will be useful for anything. Its enough that an anti-tank weapon is already useful only for tanks, etc.



@OP. Not a bad list. A few things I'd see changed, like I feel a coax gun for the gunner should be standard as well.


One thing I'd like to see is if the gunner has these certs while the driver doesn't, they can still pull the upgrades, at the least for the gun stuff, but ideally for all things. I don't want to see a situation where the guy with the most certs is always pressured to be the driver.

[krnasaur]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Running ideas through mine with customization this is basically the same thing i thought of

[Malorn]

That's a good point about the resistance plating. That might be a little overboard in terms of complexity and gameplay concepts. Neat concept but may not fit well or be too overwhelming.

[2coolforu]

It could be pretty cool if you could nudge your tanks in a certain direction. Just taking an example from real life, infantry based anti-tank weaponry is typically chemical energy, explosives and tandem warheads because kinetic energy can't be used due to recoil. If you wanted an 'Urban' tank you could deck your upgrades towards C.E. defense and have this tank that has good visibility (Bigger field of view? More driver periscopes?) to spot flanking infantry, an anti-rocket mesh like the ones they have on Striker IFV's and M113's. I'll try and flesh this out a bit

Vanguard - Urban Combat Tree (Infantry support role)

Base -> Coaxial Gauss gun --> ERA tiles -----> SLAT Armor ---> Urban Camouflage pattern -----> Explosive 150mm Rounds ------> Pintle-Mounted .50 Cal Heavy Gauss Gun ----------> smoke launchers ------------>Trophy active defense system --------------------> Active radar

That's just a basic one I thought up from the top of my head, the lengths of the arrows dictates learning time and relative mineral cost.

Coaxial Machinegun
So the first upgrade you would have is for the gunner to get access to a secondary machinegun weapon. This would be a more anti-infantry version of the 20mm twin-linked cannons

ERA Tiles

The second adds ERA tiles that increase survivability against infantry based AV weaponry, the ERA tiles are a visual upgrade that would add reactive tiles to the vehicle like this picture

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7a/T72_Georgia.jpg

These would only improve the protection of the front and turret.

SLAT Armor protection

SLAT Armor is basically a mesh that causes tandem warheads to explode prematurely negating their penetrating power, this would also be a visual addition that adds SLAT mesh to the sides and rear of the tank body improving the armor values against infantry weapons in those areas

http://www.murdoconline.net/2008/canadian_leopard2a6.jpg

Urban Camouflage Pattern

This would just add some form of grey coloured digital/dazzle camouflage to better conceal an urban based tank, perhaps even some grey/rubble coloured camouflage netting could be added. This can make a huge difference in an urban environment. I think this would actually be better as an outfit upgrade, so an outfit would set their camouflage as say urban or desert (and design the colour and pattern themselves) and would then devote themselves to fighting in such environments.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=69255&stc=1&d=1235833348

Explosive Cannon Rounds (150mm)

This is self explanatory, the upgrade would switch out the HEAT rounds of the standard vanguard and replace them with FRAG rounds, which would have a bigger splash but lower damage values and much lower damage values against armored targets. This would mean an unupgraded vanguard would easily beat an upgraded anti-infantry vanguard but this upgraded version would wreak havoc on infantry positions.

Stuff like the pintle-mounted .50 cal just allow the tank to cover more arcs of fire at once which is important in an urban environment, the pintlemounted gun would require another gunner (Filling the role of tank commander) who would have access to the smoke launchers. It would basically be a trade-off, you need 3 people but you can stop people sneaking up from behind or flanking you in a dense city street.

The Trophy system is just something I put in there on the spot, in real life its a system that protects the tank from guided ATGM's, in game it could perhaps lower the damage from air-to-ground guided missiles from aircraft or maybe infantry.

I'm just shooting the breeze and throwing a few ideas into the mosh-pit, they aren't particularly well thought out I'm just theorizing how far the system could be pushed to get cool results.

[Malorn]

As far as camoflauge goes, I was thinking that the NC adaptive camo would be something that is automatic and and adapts to whatever terrain the tank is around like a chameleon. I'm hoping this could be achieved with a modern game engine reasonably well. It's not an infiltration suit because its not cloaking, but rather masking the tank's profile with patterns and colors from its surroundings. The wy it could work is if the tank is stationary for a period of time it would automatically adapt to the surrounding terrain. If it moves it keeps its camo until it has a chance to stop and re-adapt.

Probalby no way in hell that's actually going into the game due to complexity but I think it'd be cool and fitting to the NC.

[2coolforu]

As far as camoflauge goes, I was thinking that the NC adaptive camo would be something that is automatic and and adapts to whatever terrain the tank is around like a chameleon. I'm hoping this could be achieved with a modern game engine reasonably well. It's not an infiltration suit because its not cloaking, but rather masking the tank's profile with patterns and colors from its surroundings. The wy it could work is if the tank is stationary for a period of time it would automatically adapt to the surrounding terrain. If it moves it keeps its camo until it has a chance to stop and re-adapt.

Probalby no way in hell that's actually going into the game due to complexity but I think it'd be cool and fitting to the NC.

I suppose you could do it with Render-to-Texture if the engine supports it, might be laggy though.

[Rbstr]

This is exactly how you think with skill trees.
Things that give you obvious situational advantages and disadvantages.

[Malorn]

That's why I think it should only be done when the tank is stationary for a period of time. That limits the texture capturing & image manipulation to being infrequent. After that the texture is just the skin of the tank until it re-adapts. Its a peformance optimization as well as a nice gameplay mechanic that differentiates it from cloaking.

[2coolforu]

I think the idea I was trying to capture with my examples is that there would be 3 forms of the Vanguard, the skill trees would give you no advantage in my examples. The end result of the 'Infantry Support Tank' would be a tank that is very effective on the urban maps, but at a disadvantage on others. To get all the add-ons would also be very expensive in resources limiting how often you could pull the tank, with every add-on attached it would require an extra person and be perhaps 20% more effective against infantry, with increased survivability and offensive capabilities, however it would be 20% less effective than the 'Standard' unupgraded Vanguard at Vehicular tank v tank combat and a vanguard fully specced towards anti-tank weaponry would be say 40% more effective against tanks than the 'Infantry Support' Vanguard, 20% More effective than the bog-standard however it would be 40% less effective against infantry than the 'infantry support' .

In other words the bog-standard vanguard would be the neutral stance, equally effective against infantry and armor, perhaps it could have common-pool addons as well like a mine sweeper or some ammunition - so that people can spend their minerals even if they haven't developed the skill tree. One example would be the anti-aircraft turret upgrade that Matt Higby spoke about, this would be an upgrade for the 'bog-standard' Vanguard to enhance it's versatility whereas the 'Tank-hunter' and 'infantry support' would be close-minded and focused on very specific maps and extremely resource-inefficient.

[Malorn]

I think I like the idea of keeping it open ended and letting players choose the customizations they want to use for a situation rather than having templated variants. It also has the effect of letting players tweak their tanks to their liking for general use, or for outfits to coordinate their tank customizations to their outfit strategy. A tank outfit might spread around those secondary benefits and main gun benefits so they have tanks covering different roles and protecting the entire column.


Another thought here is that the buggies might converge on the empire-specific buggies and there may not be a skyguard or harasser.

The Enforcer for example could have a main gun swap from the rocket to flak rounds, which would convert it into a skyguard. That conversion could have armor reduction & maneuverability increases go in conjunction for that purpose.

Then you have all the other enfocer upgrades as possible augments to the skyguard without having to have a specific tree devoted to it. In effect you're a "buggy specialist" and that covers buggies and variants, similar to how a tank specialist has all these different tank options.

[2coolforu]

That was the kind of idea that I was trying to head towards with the vanguard 'Infantry support' example :). Rather than just having a tank you make the vanguard a kind of splurge that can cover a variety of roles, rather than have this plain Vanguard that fits into a slot there are multiple variants that slot into multiple niches which means that there doesn't have to be say a 'Fury', 'Basilisk' 'Wraith'. Instead you just have an 'ATV' which can have a 'Tank-hunter' variant (Fury), 'Main' Variant (Basilisk) and the 'Covert Ops' Variant (Wraith).

It's a much more true to life way of dealing with vehicles, most vehicles have multiple variants for different situations.

[DviddLeff]

Great post and great ideas for modifications, here are the ones I have in my upgrade project (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-3/new-merits) which were to be unlocked via merits or cert points:

Infantry Weapons

Silencer
Bipod (makes weapon deployable, decreasing COF and bloom)
Bayonet (increased pistol whip damage)
Various magnification sights (4x, 8x, 12x)
Laser Pointer (reduces initial COF bloom)
Extended clip
Under slung grenade launcher (frag, smoke, EMP)
Under slung shotgun

Vehicles

Reactive armour plating (increases damage absorption, decreases speed)
Slat armour (reduces explosive damage, decreases speed slightly)
Decoy flares
Smoke launchers
Fragmentation grenade launchers
Electronic hardening (reduces effect of EMP weapons)


These ones are all generic, and obviously some would apply to certain types of vehicles/weapons more than others (slat armour on an aircraft? :p).

All of these would be visible on the weapon or vehicle, making it simple for the enemy to work out what they are up against. I feel this is very important and I am not overly keen on seeing modifications that cannot be seen such as the different ammo types; if you are going to change the weapon, make it obvious as Malorn suggests with the artillery pieces.

Great idea to have empire specific modifications that fit in with the ethos of the Empire.

[Dreamcast]

Yeah Im sure is gonna be similar like that which is a good thing.


Sacrificing to gain.


Allthough they did mention 20% difference in favor of Veteran Players compared to new players or unmodified guns.



I mean 20% might not be that much, but I actually think it is....Still that is Veteran new player, once player ranks up, there should'nt be much of a difference.

[2coolforu]

I'd like to see the armor upgrades be towards a certain type of damage - while weakening Resistance against a different form of damage, the ERA and SLAT armor upgrades would be defense against infantry based rocket launchers and other foot-mobile AT Weaponry. Whereas the Tank-Hunter variant would have armor that made it weaker against infantry, stronger against tank weapons and slow its speed.

[Malorn]

I could see some modifications giving a better bonus, like the one I illustrated where splash damage was reduced but damage increased. Idea is that the tank is more effective against other vehicles and tanks, but only if you hit. The downside is that the effectiveness against infantry is decreased (direct hit already kills infantry so the damage doesn't help and the reduced splash makes direct hits pretty much the only option).

Were you to go in a tank vs tank battle against that sort of equipped tank, it would in fact be a 20% damage increase in favor of that tank in a tank vs tank fight. But in an infantry vs tank fight that modification is worse than your standard tank. So again, tradeoffs.

I'm not sure what Matt meant about the 20% difference. I'm hoping its referring to tradeoff bonuses not exceeding 15-20% and not passive flat bonuses. I hope he can clarify that at some point soon.

However, I can see where resource cost can justify some power differences. You get what you pay for, right? If you use expensive resources on a tank I would hope that tank is worth it and performs a bit better.

But that's not really the same thing as a flat increase. I didn't have any skills that were like "1% more vanguard damage per rank, 5 ranks". I don't think those skills should exist in PS2 (for reasons I outlined in detail in another thread).

[ZeroOneZero]

Those are all cool and everything, but what are the limitations? 3 upgrades per vehicle? Otherwise tanks are going to be the next "BFRS".

Nice upgrade for tanks would be thermal vision. Detect infantry hiding behind trees and stuff.

-Pretty much everyone is going to spec up for anti-emp shielding crap, after all you don't wanna get EMPed after finishing pimping out your new tank just to get molested by 2 infantry.

Nice ideas though. I like RPG factors in a FPS game. :groovy:

[Dreamcast]

Yeah I hope that gets clear up....I don't want a regular basic skill tree where you incrase damage,speed,etc without sacrificing something.

It should be like your ideas.

[krnasaur]

he said a maxed out vet will have a 20% combat advantage, where with tradeoffs I think it would be where a 20% buff was negated by a 20% nerf would still be a 0% overall increase.


I think that he means just a 20% pure buff

[Malorn]

Those are all cool and everything, but what are the limitations? 3 upgrades per vehicle? Otherwise tanks are going to be the next "BFRS".


There are two limitations:
1) that the upgrades are mostly tradeoffs, and some cancel each other out (armor-for-speed vs speed-for-armor).

2) Resources.

Most of those upgrades would cost you resources, some more expensive than others.

If you're rich in resources you can pull those specialized tanks all day long. If not, then you'd have to be careful what you pick.

And if you want to run those upgrades more, send your squad/outfit to secure the resource type they require :)

[Volw]

Downside and balancing fact of an expensively upgraded vehicle is ... that everyone will put them as their primary target.

[Malorn]

that being the case you might switch it over to the Juggernaught upgrade (more armor, less speed) so you can soak up that damage.

though I think ideally most every vehicle you see would have some sort of upgrade, whether it be a swapped out weapon or a bit different handling characteristics.

[LostSoul]

Downside and balancing fact of an expensively upgraded vehicle is ... that everyone will put them as their primary target .

Two sides on the targeting, one offensive other defensive. If its expensive and you cannot afford to lose it you better protect it.

[ZeroOneZero]

There are two limitations:
1) that the upgrades are mostly tradeoffs, and some cancel each other out (armor-for-speed vs speed-for-armor).

2) Resources.

Most of those upgrades would cost you resources, some more expensive than others.

If you're rich in resources you can pull those specialized tanks all day long. If not, then you'd have to be careful what you pick.

And if you want to run those upgrades more, send your squad/outfit to secure the resource type they require :)

Good to hear:D. I really hope they make each faction have different upgrades for their vehicles.

[Rbstr]

he said a maxed out vet will have a 20% combat advantage, where with tradeoffs I think it would be where a 20% buff was negated by a 20% nerf would still be a 0% overall increase.


I think that he means just a 20% pure buff

That simply isn't likely.
Partly because of math, subtractive % ends up a bigger factor...Say you start at 100 then get a 20% bonus and then a 20% nerf. You end up at 96. (this is why ROF bonuses are better than damage bonuses, when they're the same %, from a DPS point of view)

The other reason is the 20% may be entirely situational. 20% at short range, at long range, against tanks, infantry, vampires, whatever.

Personally I don't want resource costs to play a factor in whether or not I can spawn X# my custom tank. Just resource control to effect whether the certain upgrades are available at all, if even that.

[Bags]

I'm tired of these mother fucking vampires in my mother fucking plane.

[Vancha]

That simply isn't likely.
Partly because of math, subtractive % ends up a bigger factor...Say you start at 100 then get a 20% bonus and then a 20% nerf. You end up at 96. (this is why ROF bonuses are better than damage bonuses, when they're the same %, from a DPS point of view)

Didn't they try this with the cycler or something, and it ended up being the opposite? Despite the ROF increase being better on paper, the burst damage of low-ROF/high-damage ended up being better (not in strict DPS, just generally better)?

Edit: Or were you talking in terms of a pure ROF/damage buff without any nerf?

[Malorn]

Personally I don't want resource costs to play a factor in whether or not I can spawn X# my custom tank. Just resource control to effect whether the certain upgrades are available at all, if even that.

Its possible they do the resourcing like Civilization did the strategic resources. As long as you own the hex you have access to the resource, and then a given upgrade requires that you have access to the resource. Different upgrades reqiure different combinations of resources with the common upgrades requiring common resources and the expensive upgrades requiring expensive resources.

But I dont' think they'll do it that way given they had talks of a market and economy. I think it'll be resources over time, which is good becuase it rewards people who don't throw away that custom tank, but could also lead to the sort of risk aversion we saw in EVE online where nobody wants to fight anyone and they just horde money and ships.

[2coolforu]

-accidental post

[2coolforu]

The way I saw it with my examples is there are basically 'sliders' and the variants improve one while decreasing another.In the vanguard example it went like this

'Urban Infantry Support' - Vanguard Variant, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 100/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 40/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 100/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT 40/100
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' 0/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support N/A
Total Armor 70/100

Offense
Splash Damage 100/100
Damage against Infantry 80/100
Damage against Armored Targets 5/100
Damage against Air Targets 30/100
Total Damage 50/100

Mobility
Speed 80/100
Turning Ability 80/100
Turret Traversing speed 100/100

Visibility (0 indicates minimum relative visibility, 100 indicates maximum)
Urban terrain 0/100
Desert 100/100
Forest 100/100
Grassland 100/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100

'Tank-Killer' - Vanguard Variant, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 40/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 100/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 0/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT 60/100
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' N/A
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support 100/100
Total Armor 100/100

Offense
Splash Damage 0/100 (No Splash)
Damage against Infantry 100/100
Damage against Armored Targets 100/100
Damage against Air Targets 0/100
Total Damage 100/100

Mobility
Speed 60/100
Turning Ability 50/100
Turret Traversing speed 65/100

Visibility
Urban terrain 100/100
Desert 100/100
Forest 0/100
Grassland 0/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100


'MBT' - Standard Vanguard, All upgrades bought ( The scale is arbitrary and there simply to indicate relative strengths)

Defense
C.E. Armor (Defense against Infantry AV) 80/100
K.E. Armor (Defense against Tank cannons/SABOT) 80/100
Relative defense vs Infantry 80/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard MBT N/A
Relative defense vs Vangaurd 'Tank-Killer' 40/100
Relative defense vs Vanguard 'Infantry Support 80/100
Total Armor 85/100

Offense
Splash Damage 70/100
Damage against Infantry 70/100
Damage against Armored Targets 80/100
Damage against Air Targets 100/100
Total Damage 75/100

Mobility
Speed 100/100
Turning Ability 100/100
Turret Traversing speed 100/100

Visibility
Urban terrain 50/100
Desert 50/100
Forest 50/100
Grassland 50/100
Snow/Tundra 50/100

[2coolforu]

So the classic 'Vanguard MBT' is the most balanced all-rounder, it excels in being good in every situation. The two skill trees I theorized merely make these two variants better in one role at the cost being much worse in everything else.

The Infantry Support is for the outfit that want a close-support tank that can lay down a lot of anti-infantry fire power and retain good mobility and survive under strong fire from multiple infantry AV weapons, however it is not too good at fending off aircraft and it is very poor against enemy tanks so it desperately needs infantry to shield and protect it. It has a special upgrade that opens a third 'Tank Commander' slot who has access to a pintle-mounted .50 cal 'Heavy Gauss Rifle' that can be used to surpress enemy infantry.




The 'Tank-Killer' has high armor, high damage and zero infantry defense, it's low mobility means it is better for ambushing enemy vehicles at short range or engaging them over large distances. It's camouflage is meant to conceal it on the open plains and forest it's meant to operate within, it uses SABOT rounds that have no splash and lacks any coaxial machineguns or pintle-mounted defensive weapons, it simply has one massive cannon and special sights (Infrared) that allow it to operate extremely well in any weather condition.

Although its gun does massive damage it requires a direct hit, the projectile also travels very fast to allow engagement over long distances however the zoom is also extremely large providing a very small field of view restricting combat operations in dense, close-range environments. It's armor however is the strongest against heavy duty weaponry and it has a lot of health, it's vulnerable to infantry and air ambush.




The 'MBT' Vanguard classic is the most versatile, it has good splash with its 'HEAT' rounds and can do damage to infantry or armour, just not as efficiently as its counterparts. It's mobility and speed allow it to take part in main-force attack and it's coaxial 20mm provides protection against both infantry and light armor. It can be upgraded with a third passenger slot, the 'tank commander' which allows a Commander to operate an anti-air flak cannon, a pretty weak weapon (similar to a cerberus turret) however it gives it superior air-defense compared to the other variants and en-masse it can scare off lone reavers and mosquitos.


I think the skill trees should provide specialization and not just '5% more damage', specialization doesn't actually give any advantage as it imparts an overall disadvantage, but it concentrates all the vehicles power onto one area of attack providing a smaller role of operation but much greater efficiency. To be sucessful both Vanilla tanks and specialised tanks would have to be employed by an Armoured outfit.

[Rbstr]

Didn't they try this with the cycler or something, and it ended up being the opposite? Despite the ROF increase being better on paper, the burst damage of low-ROF/high-damage ended up being better (not in strict DPS, just generally better)?

Edit: Or were you talking in terms of a pure ROF/damage buff without any nerf?

No, you're right, a ROF decrease will raise DPS more than a Damage increase, at equal percentages, but there are other factors. Until you have time for the averaging effect to matter, more raw damage tends to be better. Basically, it depends on the size of your target (in absence of other factors).

Say you have enemies with 7 HP. And two guns that do one DPS:
One that does 5 damage every 5 seconds.
One that does one damage every second.

Who kills a single enemy fastest? The one with the hardest hit. He kills the enemy in 5 seconds (first shot, 5seconds, second shot, dead).
Who kills a whole ton of enemies fastest? The one with the fast ROF...he doesn't "waste" 3 of his damage on every enemy (which in effect means the low ROF dude does 7dps against 7hp enemies).

A real-game example would be EVE. Fleets that use artillery can kill giant targets in one fleet-wide shot, and then you have to wait a while for the next target death. Fleets that depend on lasers/hybrids don't do that, they have to put up with the target being their for some time, while it's getting shot.
Turns out it's better to remove instantly, even though DPS is lower. The enemy fleet can't effectively heal the target, among other things.

[Haro]

I'd love to see an experimental weapons cert, maybe available through an outfit bonus or something like that, that allows you to use a new variant of tank with powerful weapons but slow respawn time and maybe a few other shortcomings. Railguns for the NC, Metal Storm cannons for the TR...

I don't know what the hell the VS would experiment with. Bear cannons? Truly, I'm at a loss.

I like the idea of tanks upgrading to artillery. I always regretted the lack of a good, pounding artillery piece and the interesting dynamics it could have added to combat. Plus, it would get more bang for the buck out of the current vehicle pool.

Going beyond the vanguard, I think it'd be cool to experiment with other vehicles in changing their roles around. What if a deliverer (or whatever the PS2 equivalent is) could sacrifice its passenger capacity for a fairly large cannon, to become a lightly armored tank destroyer? What if a reaver could sacrifice rocket pods and add on a small passenger compartment and a few machineguns to become a light gunship/transport?

I really do think that modifying existing vehicles is the best way to approach fleshing out the spectrum of vehicles to include some really interesting choices. It would be more efficient in terms of development, and would allow players to really fine-tune their play-style.

[ArcIyte]

/necro

So do we know how certs are going to work? Is it going to be like battlefield, where you unlock everything and choose which equipment to use at the spawn screen? Or do we actually spend cert (talent) points and specialize your character?

[Lonehunter]

Nice ideas

But if there's gonna be a 150mm scattercannon the Prowler best be getting a giant 6 barrel chain gun

[DOUBLEXBAUGH]

/necro

So do we know how certs are going to work? Is it going to be like battlefield, where you unlock everything and choose which equipment to use at the spawn screen? Or do we actually spend cert (talent) points and specialize your character?

Unlock everything and choose what you want at the spawn screen/equipment terminal.

You have access to the base form of everything day 1. You can get a Vangaurd and a Reaver without using any certs, but need certs to unlock their upgrades, and then resources to get the upgrades. They also said there will be so many certs it will take year(s) to get everything, but eventually you can.

[Grognard]

For example an engineering variant, with +200% HP with potentially extremely strong frontal armour value, -50% speed and an extremely short range 400mm howitzer, designed to push through heavily fortified positions.


OMFG I want to hear that... not that I even need to be on the same continent... "Big Bertha"... future style! :D

[Hark]

They also said there will be so many certs it will take year(s) to get everything, but eventually you can.

Are you sure ? Anyway, this sounds really good to me. I hate getting everything I want in a too easy way.

[BorisBlade]

Cool ideas man. One thing tho to keep in mind, currently the cert system is not specialization, you can get every single thing at once. Its just unlocks, there is no limit to what or how many you can get. It just opens up things you can use. So you would unlock the ability to get all that stuff and just switch up between them when you get your vehicle. I only say this cause many people think you would specialize into one thing/area or another, but you really just get it all. Somethin to keep in mind when comin up with ideas, esp since without actual specialization, your ability to use it as a balancing tool is much more limited.