Anyone else think this must be a joke?

[Forsaken One]

Q. What exactly is the planned Damage bonus for headshots? Will any Infantary weapon be able to One shot Kill?

A. The system allows us to have different damage bonuses for each weapon. This way we can make it so that sniper rifles give a 200% bonus making them OSOK on headshots and chainguns get a 0% bonus making it make no difference. Other guns like pistols or assault rifles might be somewhere in between based on how rewarding we feel precision should be with each of those weapons/weapon types. Vehicle weapons will likely have a 0% bonus.

Exact balance for this is not final, but that's the general idea that we're going with and we'll tweak as necessary.


So.... does it sound to anyone else like its going to be. "use Deagle and sniper or uninstall." Ala CS style balance?

[hippieschuh]

...might be in between... = 50% more damage if hit on head

considering a pistol does low damage, sounds fine to me?

[Vancha]

I'd hoping that sort of "balance" would end up being fixed rather quickly.

[Grimster]

I imagine that they will look at this part closely during the beta to balance it properly for the launch of the game.

I have full confidence in the developers there because I am sure they will listen to the feedback from the beta testers.

[Forsaken One]

Its sadly the most retarded thing I've heard so far. This is how gaming works. if X gun can out dps Y gun by taking skill it makes Y gun totally useless. As you ether use X gun or pretty much uninstall.

CS/CSS is a prime example of this bullshit. even through the MG and assault rifle has decent dps the fact that the Deagle/sniper can one shot you makes pretty much any of the other guns worthless.

If the chain gun is outdps'd by a assault rifle useing headshots then the chain gun would be utterly worthless because it would fall under the "use the assault rifle or uninstall"

[SKYeXile]

i herd they're also giving maxes a gun that can headshot, and the most DPS...again...also again the most armour, it also cannot be headshot.

[Grimster]

Well I think you have to put a little more faith in the developers. I am sure that there might be a inbalance when they start off the beta but I am also sure that they will balance this based on the feedback from the testers and from what I have heard since current subscribers are those that will have first dips on the beta I am certain that the feedback provided will be what appeals to the general Planetside player and not some CS/COD hardcore player.

[Gandhi]

If the chain gun is outdps'd by a assault rifle useing headshots then the chain gun would be utterly worthless because it would fall under the "use the assault rifle or uninstall"
Then the solution is clear, we'll have to get rid of stamina and allow bunny hopping to make it harder to land headshots. :doh:

[Forsaken One]

Well I think you have to put a little more faith in the developers.

Its hard to have faith when everytime they speak its like a slap in the face to Planetside as a whole.
Everytime they open their mouths its something self over teamwork.
Everything they say tends to lean for ADD Monkey drool bucket twitch kid over mature players with tactics and strategy.

[Kran De Loy]

Its hard to have faith when everytime they speak its like a slap in the face to Planetside as a whole.
Everytime they open their mouths its something self over teamwork.
Everything they say tends to lean for ADD Monkey drool bucket twitch kid over mature players with tactics and strategy.

Using tactics means knowing how to manipulate the twitcher into being where he'll do the most good. Usually as a fine piece of distraction.

Herding Cats will likely be one of the Squad captain certs.

[Robert089]

I'm gonna snipe so many heads in the Beta they will be forced to take away it's OHOK abilities.

[Bruttal]

yeah what it boils down to is after they "think" they have it where they want, then they will open beta and it will be scaled agian. there gonna be tracking so much data then before. they done said that they have the tools to see each projectl in live time. is it gonna suck to sit there and watch numbers for 1 type of gun for 8hrs aday to check to see if its doing what they think it should be? probabily. but there gonna do it anyways :P

[FastAndFree]

I'm gonna snipe so many heads in the Beta they will be forced to take away it's OHOK abilities.

It works both ways though, you will be a sitting duck while you line up your headshots

I just hope they will change how base repair works, it was boring enough to fix up a base after it flipped, now people will have to worry about funny snipers looking for one hit kills after each base capture

[Wakken]

if they balance it right then its fine by me

[Volw]

It works both ways though, you will be a sitting duck while you line up your headshots


Unless they allow quick-scoping or no-scoping....

[LostSoul]

People worry to much, it might work out quite well. Remember that Planetside has many many flaws hope they fix them this time around. And yes, that means it won't be the same, hopefully it will be allot better.

(don't get me wrong, Planetside gives a unique experience unclassed by anything I've played so far, but that doesn't make it a good game)

[BlazingSun]

Headshots and sniperrifles could work, if there will be damage degradation over range again. Let's say up to 10m a Headshot of a sniperrifle would be lethal, but beyond that you could survive the shot. It will also depend how detailed the hitboxes will be. It should also depend on which kind of armour the target is wearing. A Reinforced Exo-Suit has a better helmet that provides better protection while for an Agile-Exosuit a headshot would be lethal at up to 20 or 30m, but it has the bonus to allow for quicker movement and increase the chance to avoid beeing hit.

Bottom line is this: Instant kill due a headshot by sniperrifles would only be OK for this game at close range. Keep in mind, that the Sniper will most likely be it's own class and won't be able to pull out a HA gun when the enemy gets close to defend himself. At range a headshot should never be instant kill. It would simply not work out well for battles that big.

[Tikuto]

I believe it's poor development on their part. It's like ignorance. Hope they reconsider an alternative, and maybe that alternative be something I suggested on this forum recently. ;)

[Logit]

I believe it's poor development on their part. It's like ignorance. Hope they reconsider an alternative, and maybe that alternative be something I suggested on this forum recently. ;)

I'm glad they continue to say if things frustrate players they won't delay in fixing them or modifying them. I feel like this may be one of those things that yes, in theory it's OK, but when it boils down to it the scale of the game I feel is too large for something like this.

Only time will tell.

[Hamma]

This is not a joke and it sounds like a pretty sound way to go about things. Means someone with an MCG can't spray bullets all around and get random headshots.

Its hard to have faith when everytime they speak its like a slap in the face to Planetside as a whole.
Everytime they open their mouths its something self over teamwork.
Everything they say tends to lean for ADD Monkey drool bucket twitch kid over mature players with tactics and strategy.

Negative Nancy here won't be happy unless it's PlanetSide 1 reskinned. Seriously dude a slap in the face? The game needs to compete with modern FPSs and retain the PlanetSide Feel if they want it to be a success.

[Malorn]

Does't seem like a joke to me. Makes sense.

If the deviation of the weapon is high enough that typically you won't be able to "aim" for headshots effectively and will get them mostly by random chance or by the law of averages, they could simply remove them from the equation to make balancing easier.

From the way Matt described it they are balancing based on weapon accuracy. If it's an accurate weapon then rewarding head shots makes sense. If it's an inaccurate weapon designed for spraying then it it'll just lead to random deaths or "lucky shots" because you can't reliably make headshots with the weapon.

More reliable accuracy = more damage reward on the headshot.

Makes sense to me.

[Gandhi]

I'm going to make one last post on this subject, then I'll try my very best to stop thinking about it until beta (where I'll probably raise hell about it again).

Regardless of how hard you make it, or how much skill training it requires, or how well it's balanced, one hit kills are simply not a fun game mechanic. In fact I don't think it's fun for the sniper either, though maybe I'm wrong there. Maybe it takes a special kind of person to get enjoyment from being able to position his mouse just so in order to cap someone totally oblivious to his existence in the middle of a 1000 man battle. I don't know. I've always found it more fun to peg someone with the sniper rifle, then watch him panic in my scope before I unload the second round on him. That to me was a lot more enjoyable than, say, playing sniper in TF2.

Now that's from the sniper's side. From the side of the receiver it's never fun, in fact it's about the most frustrating game mechanic I can think of. It all boils down to the fact that you have no chance to respond, and that little fact makes all the difference. You either see the sniper in time to avoid him, or you don't see him and you die. In a game limited to 24 people on static maps this isn't such a big deal, it's pretty easy to learn the common sniper nests and keep tabs on who's using them. But in a game with huge, open, multilevel maps where 1000+ people could be fighting at once? Forget about it. Planetside dealt with this by giving people a chance to respond. You get hit once and think "Oh shit a sniper!", and now it's a contest of skill. Can you evade him long enough to get to cover? Can he land a second shot on you before that? Both sides now have a chance, and that chance makes all the difference.

And in the end it doesn't matter how hard you make sniping, how many skill points you need to invest or how balanced it is. None of that will change the fact that you're dealing with a game mechanic that creates frustration instead of fun. This is why games have had to come up with all kinds of ridiculous things to cover up this broken mechanic, like forced "hardscoping" and bunny hopping. Not only that, but make it as hard as you want. Eventually people will become good at it, eventually a lot of people will become good at it. CCP made this mistake with titans, "well we're making them super expensive so very few people will own one" they said. Fast forward a few years and you have alliances fielding dozens of titans in major engagements, it's beyond ridiculous. The fact that they were hard to acquire did nothing but cover up the inherent flaws in the underlying game mechanic.

Lastly I'll say I understand the need to modernize Planetside. There are a lot of changes I can't wait to see in action, some changes I'm not too thrilled about but am willing to try and even to overlook. Planetside definitely needs to be made faster, a little more hectic, but there's a select few things in modern FPS games that I feel have no place in a game like Planetside, and this is one of them. So anyway, that's my last get-off-my-lawn rant on this topic. Bring on the beta and prove me wrong :D

[ShowNoMercy]

Hamma, you must not be very good with how percentages work. if a sniper rifle does 250 base dmg and a head shot is 200% of base then it would do 500dmg. If an MCG does 15 base dmg per shot and a head shot was 200% it would only do 30 dmg. Thus the conclusion is that it would save you 1 shot in order to get a kill. Since the MCG has a high fire rate and takes multiple shots to get a kill, 1 shot saved equates to a fraction of a second reduction in the time to kill which in essence is not that important. However, if you are using a gun with a tight cone and could fire off a burst aimed at someones cranial region, it would make a difference. Bottom line is HS dmg increases may or may not make a difference depending on things such as fire rate, CoF, and clip size. We just have to wait and see how the devs incorporate it before we complain about it.

[basti]

Very well said mate.

Im right there with you raising hell once we have a chance. In fact, im going to cert sniper and just start oneshotting the devs until their brains start to function again. And im going to do that until this entire stuff is completly removed.

[Malorn]

If a sniper rifle does 250 base damage, an MCG round is going to do a lot more than 15, in which case a headshot damage would scale a lot better.

They just want to avoid situations where you spray some bullets down a hall and the deviation was just right that several shots were headshots due to pure random luck. Dying to that sort of thing really frustrates most players. But if it was a headshot with a sniper rifle, well...chances are that wasn't random luck.

Its a good thing to try to minimize random death and reward skill.

[Rarntogo]

I have been against any OSOK scenario since it was first mentioned. Selfishly because my own skills have degraded to where I feel like I'll get owned and that doesnt appeal to me much. I have son who is 16. He very politely reminded me that back in the day when I would play CS my favorite loadout for a time was Deagle/ AWP or Scout. I never camped (I used to Ban campers) Long story short.... this morning I got all charged up on Mt Dew and coffee and installed CS. I played an hour or so did ok for an old man... But I got bored with OSOK pretty quick and nobody else on the server liked it much either. I wonder if we arent over reacting a bit and blowing this all out of proportion? I dont play any of the new online shooters. Tried BF2, didnt care for it. Are these Youtube vids of sniper carnage we see the norm out there or in reality just a select few showing off? I'm just curious.

[DviddLeff]

Sounds great for where I stand.

Back in PS I believe weapon tweaking was a nightmare as each bullet type had a set damage, so if you tweaked the Mosquitos cannon then the Harassers was effected as well.

Having each and every gun not only have its own values but also have tweak-able values for head shots means that its easy to adjust it in the future and during testing to get the balance just right.

Don't forget that we will have ballistic trajectories in PS2; if your sniper isn't skilled he wont land the head shot at all, and at large ranges may miss you altogether even when you're stationary for the first few shots.

[Baneblade]

As long as your reticle being red doesn't mean the difference between full hit or full miss, I don't care about headshotboxes.

[Cartel]

All I hear is " I cant aim for shit so please dont have headshots - Ill get rolled"

Every decent fps in the last 10 years has had hitboxes for different parts of the body

And guess what - they are all fine

If you want noob fps - stick to planetside 1

[Bags]

All I hear is " I cant aim for shit so please dont have headshots - Ill get rolled"

Every decent fps in the last 10 years has had hitboxes for different parts of the body

And guess what - they are all fine

If you want noob fps - stick to planetside 1

TF2 only has hit boxes for one class.

Let me strawman too: people who like headshots only like them because they like OP sniper.

[Cartel]

Ive never played sniper for more than 5 minutes in most fps games

TF2 has a ridiculous crit system - Im sure people wouldnt rather see that

The ability to aim for the head consistently is what separates good players from bad
People that can aim will never have a problem with this - imagine how much better of a game ps1 would have been with headshots - no adadadada spam

I cant wait for them to take out all the noob shit from ps1 and make ps2 a real fps game where aim matters

[Bags]

I like ADADADA spam. Aiming at someone doing that takes as much skill as aiming for the head on someone barely moving, if not more.

[Cartel]

to each his own i guess

I always thought it made planetside look like crap

[Volw]

I always thought tactics and teamwork is what separates good players from bad ones ...

[basti]

Ive never played sniper for more than 5 minutes in most fps games

TF2 has a ridiculous crit system - Im sure people wouldnt rather see that

The ability to aim for the head consistently is what separates good players from bad
People that can aim will never have a problem with this - imagine how much better of a game ps1 would have been with headshots - no adadadada spam

OUT!
NOW!

FOOL!


Headshots NEVER EVER added ANYTHING to gameplay. They just made the good players better, while adding TONS of frustration to the targets.
Imagine how much FUN it would be to sit inside the base for ages because you know you die instantly to a Ton of snipers sitting around the base, getting ready to let your head explode.

And the argument "But other games had it, waaah" is completly invalid in terms of Planetside. In CSS, COD or whatever you just switched servers if you got a guy in the other team just Headshotting you every damn second. In Planetside, that wont be possible. Okay, actually it will, but you would not loose the progress youve made on your character, but also loose every connection to mates.
Means you rather just log off. Bang, Frustration, crap game, unsub, gone. Thats what going to happen, nothing else.

[Bags]

Yeah, VALVe has come to realize that the reason the sniper is so hated in TF2 is because you can't fight back. Well, you can, but the average player can't.

Blizzard reached the same conclusion about stunlocks; if you can't fight back people get fucking pissed.

The two best video game companies have come to the conclusion that people hate not being able to react before dying; SOE should take notice.

[Redshift]

It works both ways though, you will be a sitting duck while you line up your headshots


Not really tbh, when i snipe i dance like a muppet while finding a target then crouch and fire, then dance like a muppet again, generally most targets are sitting ducks while repairing

I'm sure i'll get snipped in the head, but i guarantee i'll land more on others than i take myself

[Raymac]

I'd like to avoid insta-deathes as much as possible, but it happens in PS1 so it will happen in PS2. If you just give me some decent cover, let the snipers have their headshot OSOK. It will be fun dodging a sniper trying to take off my head, and then do some counter-sniping for payback. I love payback.

[Hamma]

Hamma, you must not be very good with how percentages work. if a sniper rifle does 250 base dmg and a head shot is 200% of base then it would do 500dmg. If an MCG does 15 base dmg per shot and a head shot was 200% it would only do 30 dmg. Thus the conclusion is that it would save you 1 shot in order to get a kill. Since the MCG has a high fire rate and takes multiple shots to get a kill, 1 shot saved equates to a fraction of a second reduction in the time to kill which in essence is not that important. However, if you are using a gun with a tight cone and could fire off a burst aimed at someones cranial region, it would make a difference. Bottom line is HS dmg increases may or may not make a difference depending on things such as fire rate, CoF, and clip size. We just have to wait and see how the devs incorporate it before we complain about it.

What? Chainguns get a 0% bonus, which means same damage on the entire hitbox. Not that hard to understand.. You are also using theoretical damage amounts.. but ok.

Regardless of any of this I don't see headshots as a problem. As long as it's balanced well and they listen to the community during testing.

[Logit]

What? Chainguns get a 0% bonus, which means same damage on the entire hitbox. Not that hard to understand.. You are also using theoretical damage amounts.. but ok.

Regardless of any of this I don't see headshots as a problem. As long as it's balanced well and they listen to the community during testing.

This, it would seem SOE is finally taking the approach of listening to what the people want. IT WOULD SEEM. So if they actually do, things that are raising red flags in the community are probably going to be watched pretty closely.

[Malorn]

OUT!
NOW!

FOOL!


Headshots NEVER EVER added ANYTHING to gameplay. They just made the good players better, while adding TONS of frustration to the targets.
Imagine how much FUN it would be to sit inside the base for ages because you know you die instantly to a Ton of snipers sitting around the base, getting ready to let your head explode.

And the argument "But other games had it, waaah" is completly invalid in terms of Planetside. In CSS, COD or whatever you just switched servers if you got a guy in the other team just Headshotting you every damn second. In Planetside, that wont be possible. Okay, actually it will, but you would not loose the progress youve made on your character, but also loose every connection to mates.
Means you rather just log off. Bang, Frustration, crap game, unsub, gone. Thats what going to happen, nothing else.

Cartel is one of the best battlefield players in the world and has won countless tournaments with his team and rarely been defeated (rivaL gaming, look it up). He understands what skill is, and he knows what teamwork and tactics are. He is no fool.


Apart from some legitimate concerns about pacing a lot of this stuff is pure over-reaction. Whether headshots are good or bad for the game is really only evident when we see them in action in the beta and we can see if their implementation makes sense. Outside of that, adding mechanics into the game that reward skill is generally a good thing and we have no reason to believe it won't be true in PS2.

[basti]

Cartel is one of the best battlefield players in the world and has won countless tournaments with his team and rarely been defeated (rivaL gaming, look it up). He understands what skill is, and he knows what teamwork and tactics are. He is no fool.


Apart from some legitimate concerns about pacing a lot of this stuff is pure over-reaction. Whether headshots are good or bad for the game is really only evident when we see them in action in the beta and we can see if their implementation makes sense. Outside of that, adding mechanics into the game that reward skill is generally a good thing and we have no reason to believe it won't be true in PS2.

And if he would be christ himself, i dont give a damn. Actually, he should be able to understand that pretty easy: Is it fun to get defeated without the ability to do anything about that? It clearly is not. Everyone who doesnt understand that just needs to jump into a random FPS game and go for a server with really really good guys. Wonder how long you keep playing before you got fed up and quit.

And i agree with both of your last points. We will only really know in beta, and can only there make sure stuff is right, and rewarding skill is "generally" a good thing. But rewarding skill by adding frustration to other is something bad. Not for those rewarded, but for those frustrated.



Time for the list.

[Soothsayer]

If they can tweak a gun to ignore headshots completely (minigun) then they could balance out a nerf to sniper rifles by diminishing their effectiveness on body armor. Can be explained away any way you want to.

I'm on the fence on OHK, I don't enjoy playing sniper, but I do prefer hard hitting semi-auto rifles in most modern shooters. I don't play sniper because I'm more objective based. I often feel like there are too many snipers when I'm standing on the point, all alone...

So, I like having the option for a high dmg headshot but I think that the sniper class needs to give something up for a massive damage headshot.

[Kurtz]

Tactics and teamwork > Individual Skill Level BECAUSE if you have tactics and teamwork then you should be able to point your twitch gamers in the direction of the bad guys and get good results.

I've played with Cartel in PS1 and in BF series. He understands games and balance better than 99.9% of gamers.

Do you all seriously want client side hit detection again? Head shots are good for the game.

[basti]

What do headshots have to do with CSHD? :huh:

[Kurtz]

nothing...it was sarcasm. As in why stop at boycotting headshots...lets petition to keep CSHD and everything else that was terrible about PS1.

[basti]

Well, you think its bad to not have headshots, i think its bad do have them. It depens on your point of view, as it really is fun just nuking those noobs in the face, one after another. But i just fear that this could cause the noob to get extremly frustrated.

Lets leave this here, we all just shared our opinions often enough. Heck, we have several threads about this.

We have to see ourself, and we will.

[Forsaken One]

Negative Nancy here won't be happy unless it's PlanetSide 1 reskinned. Seriously dude a slap in the face? The game needs to compete with modern FPSs and retain the PlanetSide Feel if they want it to be a success.

You seem to be misunderstanding me greatly lately no offense. I do not want a "reskined Planetside 1" I want a Sequel To one of the greatest Teamwork over self FPS games ever made.

I've even made suggestions that would be more modern yet wouldn't add to "Self" such as finishing moves in the Max Melee thread.

The fact is. Planetside is about teamwork, tactics, and strategy Planetside should worry more about competing with things like ArmA, flashpoint, etc much more then "generic drool cup twitch shooter number 20."

[Raymac]

The fact is. Planetside is about teamwork, tactics, and strategy Planetside should worry more about competing with things like ArmA, flashpoint, etc much more then "generic drool cup twitch shooter number 20."

The great thing about Planetside is that for the numbers of different players we are talking about, it's a place for all kinds of gameplay. Bring the ArmA people, bring the COD people, and lets all have a huge war.

[basti]

The great thing about Planetside is that for the numbers of different players we are talking about, it's a place for all kinds of gameplay. Bring the ArmA people, bring the COD people, and lets all have a huge war.

Indeed. As long as we can get the COD people to play together with us and follow a general leadership, while having the arma people doing the dirty jobs, we will have fun. After all, we had those killwhores in Planetside just as much as we had the Outfits. :)

[ShowNoMercy]

What? Chainguns get a 0% bonus, which means same damage on the entire hitbox. Not that hard to understand.. You are also using theoretical damage amounts.. but ok.

Regardless of any of this I don't see headshots as a problem. As long as it's balanced well and they listen to the community during testing.

I agree, the HS on an MCG wont make much of a difference since they are going to be faster pace kills. Either way will be fine in regards to the MCG. However, just reading over some other posts it seems that the OSOK sniper rifles may not be very fun.

If you think about CoD for instance, there is really no place you can camp without having your back or sides exposed, not to mention in many of the game modes there is random spawning around the map. PS doesnt have that luxury, you have to spawn FROM somewhere (or now onto someone, even then drop pod = obvious). I suppose I am trying to get at that snipers may be far more likely to flank people since they know where they are spawning from and can 1 shot them (thinking camping vpad).

Also a valid point about not being able to change game rooms. I get frustrated easily and getting killed repeatedly is dangerous to everything breakable around me. I love playing medic, and the idea of getting my head popped like a zit when im trying to rez people isnt fun.

[CutterJohn]

Tried BF2, didnt care for it. Are these Youtube vids of sniper carnage we see the norm out there or in reality just a select few showing off? I'm just curious.

All those videos are showing off. They are highlight reels. They show the nifty stuff, the awesome(lucky) shots.They don't show the thousand times they missed completely or had their ass handed to them. Granted, many of those players ARE good, but there aren't people pegging shot after shot from across the map.

I've played hundreds of hours of bad company 2 by now. Its sniper rifles are osok headshots. Within 10m, they are osok body shots. They aren't omnipresent, because they are, despite their power, rather poor CQC and mid range weapons, and have a huge risk at closer ranges.. you miss, you die. Which is frequent. Other infantry weapons will easily win a firefight if you don't hit that perfect headshot.

[GTGD]

All those videos are showing off. They are highlight reels. They show the nifty stuff, the awesome(lucky) shots.They don't show the thousand times they missed completely or had their ass handed to them. Granted, many of those players ARE good, but there aren't people pegging shot after shot from across the map.

I've played hundreds of hours of bad company 2 by now. Its sniper rifles are osok headshots. Within 10m, they are osok body shots. They aren't omnipresent, because they are, despite their power, rather poor CQC and mid range weapons, and have a huge risk at closer ranges.. you miss, you die. Which is frequent. Other infantry weapons will easily win a firefight if you don't hit that perfect headshot.

I think the BFBC2 sniping system is the most satisfying and balanced of all FPS. You need to lead, adjust for bullet drop, and hit in the right areas in order to successfully one shot kill an opponent. So long as the Bolt Driver is kept as is ( one shot with a lengthly reload, and a cone of fire that doesn't stop going crazy until you stop moving the crosshair) it should be a perfect way to do it.

[Bags]

Yeah, as long as it has bullet drop it shouldn't be too bad.

Current sniping in PS would be way too easy with HS OSOK tho.

[Baneblade]

The most accurate weapon having the most retarded CoF design is bullshit and was the one thing above everything else I loathed about PS1. Strafing to lead shouldn't be necessary for a sniper.

[Tool]

I think the BFBC2 sniping system is the most satisfying and balanced of all FPS. You need to lead, adjust for bullet drop, and hit in the right areas in order to successfully one shot kill an opponent. So long as the Bolt Driver is kept as is ( one shot with a lengthly reload, and a cone of fire that doesn't stop going crazy until you stop moving the crosshair) it should be a perfect way to do it.

I feel the same way about BC2 sniping. While usless in Rush or pretty much all other game modes, getting those extreme long range headshots, especially on moving targets or other snipers, after taking that little time to line up your shot and account for the bullet drop was very satisfying.

If sniping in PS2 is handled in a similar fashion, it wont be as detrimental to the game as some people feel. It took time to get those OSHK on targets, at least in non-hardcore mode. I think snipers have a distinct role to play in a game like Planetside but they lacked tools to promote their use aside from killing players.

While killing is good, utility is better. If say there's some scout branch on Light Assault allowing the use of sniper rifles and supplemental skills, it may be worthwhile if those skills provided function and utility to everyone; not just the snipers squad or the players in close proximity. Like spotting players in BC2, or a unique laser pointer that updates a waypoint in real time to pilots who accept an associated mission for a precsion bombing run, etc.

[Vancha]

I'd ask how headshots benefit gameplay. For example, if it's just the satisfaction of getting them, what if headshot kills came up in the killspam but didn't actually do extra damage?

No, I suppose it's the additional element of risk/reward. You risk your chance of hitting, but get the reward of an instant kill...What if headshots somehow debuffed a target (slow/disorient/blur etc.) instead of doing extra damage, while killing someone with a headshot came up on the killspam and contributed to a merit? Would that satisfy headshot fans?

The problem here is obviously the conflict between how headshots benefit gameplay and how they deteriorate it (and they do do both.) Planetside 2 seems like the ideal game to try and solve that conflict.

The most accurate weapon having the most retarded CoF design is bullshit and was the one thing above everything else I loathed about PS1. Strafing to lead shouldn't be necessary for a sniper.
I think the idea there was to stop people being able to swing their aim 10* to the left and be able to land a shot (I guess you'd call that "twitch" sniping?).

[Volw]

I think the BFBC2 sniping system is the most satisfying and balanced of all FPS. You need to lead, adjust for bullet drop, and hit in the right areas in order to successfully one shot kill an opponent. So long as the Bolt Driver is kept as is ( one shot with a lengthly reload, and a cone of fire that doesn't stop going crazy until you stop moving the crosshair) it should be a perfect way to do it.

Do you want 50% of PS2 server pop pick sniper class, as they do in BC2?

[Baneblade]

I think the idea there was to stop people being able to swing their aim 10* to the left and be able to land a shot (I guess you'd call that "twitch" sniping?).

I understand that, but even so there was no need for it to be done that way.

[CutterJohn]

Do you want 50% of PS2 server pop pick sniper class, as they do in BC2?

In my experience its 50% medics.

Honestly, I laugh when the enemy team is sniper heavy. It means an easy win. Snipers are useful for the sensor balls, and they definitely come in handy clearing people off of fixed weapons. Other than that its a mediocre class.

[Senyu]

if the sniper is hard to use, is pretty much useless in closecombat, and other disadvantages, i see no problem with it. Slow reloading and trying to hit a tiny spot is what the guns all about.

[Bags]

trying to hit a tiny spot is what the guns all about.

Uh, not really.

[exLupo]

Do you want 50% of PS2 server pop pick sniper class, as they do in BC2?

High sniper numbers aren't because of one shot kills. It's because of the "badass factor". Guys rolling up named NinjaSkillz420 just want to be the awesome guy movies taught them to be. Snipers have a mystique which draws new players. You see it in BF and TF2 very often. You also get a lot of Spy players in TF2 for the same reason. They're usually the same players that you give the most important piece of team/class FPS advice to: "A good player isn't judged by how well they play one class but, instead, by how well they know when not to play their best class."

AWP Wars is another story but that's been well covered in this thread.

Personally, and I'm clearly biased, I like the TF2 headshot system. Specific weapons are designed around headshots and cater to players who crave that visceral satisfaction. At the same time, those superhumans who are still in college or earlier, who can pull off chain headshots with any weapon, don't totally destroy team balance. Also, it keeps some absurd weapons from going totally off the wall. Look at Borderlands for example. Not a shining FPS example but you can headshot with rockets. The models and hitboxes often screwed with it but imagine if you could reliably land those. Why would any other weapon be necessary?

I believe that headshots should be allowed but only in specifically designed situations. There is a segment of the playerbase for whom that is their one goal in shooting games and they should be acknowledged but having played games that have no headshots (ps1), selective headshots (tf2) and global headshots (a ton of others), the middle path seems to be the one that provides both a fair solution (meaning, being over 30 years old doesn't mean uninstall) and a satisfying one (ohk still an option for those who choose to follow a path balanced with that in mind).

edit: For reference - I almost only sniped in ps1 until they screwed up the netcode. I sniped so much in 2142 that the Z is -still- my most used weapon and I can't escape it. TF2? 2nd most hours are in fatty. The farthest I could get from accuracy and still benefit my team. :)

[Volw]

High sniper numbers aren't because of one shot kills. It's because of the "badass factor". Guys rolling up named NinjaSkillz420 just want to be the awesome guy movies taught them to be. Snipers have a mystique which draws new players. You see it in BF and TF2 very often. You also get a lot of Spy players in TF2 for the same reason. They're usually the same players that you give the most important piece of team/class FPS advice to: "A good player isn't judged by how well they play one class but, instead, by how well they know when not to play their best class."

AWP Wars is another story but that's been well covered in this thread.

Personally, and I'm clearly biased, I like the TF2 headshot system. Specific weapons are designed around headshots and cater to players who crave that visceral satisfaction. At the same time, those superhumans who are still in college or earlier, who can pull off chain headshots with any weapon, don't totally destroy team balance. Also, it keeps some absurd weapons from going totally off the wall. Look at Borderlands for example. Not a shining FPS example but you can headshot with rockets. The models and hitboxes often screwed with it but imagine if you could reliably land those. Why would any other weapon be necessary?

I believe that headshots should be allowed but only in specifically designed situations. There is a segment of the playerbase for whom that is their one goal in shooting games and they should be acknowledged but having played games that have no headshots (ps1), selective headshots (tf2) and global headshots (a ton of others), the middle path seems to be the one that provides both a fair solution (meaning, being over 30 years old doesn't mean uninstall) and a satisfying one (ohk still an option for those who choose to follow a path balanced with that in mind).

edit: For reference - I almost only sniped in ps1 until they screwed up the netcode. I sniped so much in 2142 that the Z is -still- my most used weapon and I can't escape it. TF2? 2nd most hours are in fatty. The farthest I could get from accuracy and still benefit my team. :)

See, you are sort of missing the point.

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.

BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

[2coolforu]

See, you are sort of missing the point.

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.

BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

It may suffer from the Call of Duty effect, when you make something relatively easy, and also effective at killing it instantly becomes the kiddies favorite weapon. See CoD where 90% of people just grab the intervention and run around trying to be 'uber leet n0scopes'

[Soothsayer]

Giving OSOK to snipers, makes them automatically 'cool'. Cause no longer snipers will have to work for their kills (PS1), but it will be possible to kill much easier. Or at least it will be percieved as easier.


They should make everything cool! :)

Or make the really cool stuff really hard to do well...

[CutterJohn]

(and usually at least 20%-30%)

Lets see.. theres 4 classes.

100%/4 = 25%

Pretty sure 25% is in between 20% and 30%

This is outrageous.. 1 of the 4 classes often having a 25% representation? They need to nerf snipers. BC2 was only meant to have 3 classes played, dammit!

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

You, ah, forget the vast array of vehicles which will annihilate those people who have taken up arms with a sniper rifle. And the cloakers. And the people with MA who use the not inadequate(from the looks of the trailer anyway) amounts of cover to close the distance to a point where the sniping is not a big advantage at all..

Boggles my mind why everyone thinks it will be so easy. Its not. Especially with bullet drop.

[exLupo]

...BC2 sort of proves it. There's often 50% of snipers (and usually at least 20%-30%) but the amount of snipers with a 'decent' score is probably below 5%.

My biggest concern is that OSOK is going to make it too easy for some to solo-whore kills, and if we assume 333v333v333, then even 20% of snipers means ... 200(!!!) people stuck on the hills sniping. It's not much fun, is it?

Lets draw this out using your generous numbers. Having played a fair bit of BC2 I wouldn't even say 5% of recons are worthy of a rifle but lets go with that. And 20% of people kitting sniper? I seriously doubt that but lets roll with that as well. In a 1000 man fight with 200 snipers, if 5% of those are any good that's 10 dangerous people in the hills. A slim 1% of the entire fighting force and they'll be useless against max, armor, installation and air.

1% of the entire engagement is pulling off OHK on soft targets and that's only when the snipers are left alone. They also have to deal with air, cloakers (in PS2? Haven't found any info), counter snipers and, from time to time, an orbital strike.

The point and truth is this: It doesn't matter how many terrible snipers are drawn to the profession, all that happens is you still have a core of expert players surrounded by legions of bullet catchers. It happened in PS, TF2, BF, BC2, 2142, Tribes, and on and on with any game that included a sniper role. In PS1/2 you aren't team limited (at least to the same degree). If 5 people on a TF2 map, no matter how good they are, go sniper, you're going to lose. If 30 people on your team in PS go sniper, it's annoying from a philosophical standpoint but it doesn't make much of a difference in the long run.

Using modern OHK sniper designs from your run of the mill "realistic" military style shooter, it takes actual skill for that feature to be a realized threat. Most people will spend their time flinging wide or going for non-kill meat shots. Spooked targets then, as we have all seen, dive for cover and ruin the opportunity for surprise that was previously playing in the expert's favor. The only thing about OHK snipers in modern games that ruins anything is bad players doing poorly with them and being dead weight on their teams. PS2 will have large enough engagement numbers that, if the past is any measure, it won't be a problem. Sure, you'll have ridges of snipers but you'll still have well enough other specs to get the job done up close. The potency of the weapon, now that we've learned the lessons of CS, et al., is balanced by the limitations in usability. Scope settle, bullet drop, reload time, etc.

It'll be ok, have some faith.

[Kran De Loy]

Also having the supposed predictability that there will always be snipers everywhere will make it more common for the smarter players to attempt to avoid large open killing grounds.

I hope the terrain in the game is realistically broken up enough to make such a tactic more lucrative.

[Malorn]

To be quite honest Planetside was never really about snipers. My outfit had very few for a simple reason - they weren't effective. Most battles happened either in vehicles outside or with medium/heavy assault/MAX inside. The situations where sniping was even halfway productive was in a stalemate between two footzergs.

Having OSOK as an option for headshots for snipers will at the very least make snipers a bit more viable in Planetside. Second, since the pacing is aimed at being much faster then dying in general will be less of an issue, so dying to a headshot isn't going to be that big of a deal.

I dont' see any reason why we can't try it out and see how it works in the new world of PlanetSide 2 pacing. It might be perfectly fine. Or it might have issues at which time we can bring up later. Maybe the numbers just need to be tweaked.

In any case I dont' see how we can really make much progress on this particular topic until beta. Some will have fears, but I think the best thing to do is to take that passion and hold onto it and test the hell out of it in Beta.

[exLupo]

To be quite honest Planetside was never really about snipers. My outfit had very few for a simple reason - they weren't effective. Most battles happened either in vehicles outside or with medium/heavy assault/MAX inside. The situations where sniping was even halfway productive was in a stalemate between two footzergs.

Pretty much just the first 6 months of the game (if that). Tons of soft targets rushing to and from towers and bases. Lots of bodies and, even then, only sniper teams were a real threat. Why? Essentially OHK. Anyone else was just annoying. Not that it wasn't fun pulling consecutive 200+ shots on moving targets but you were more like a muddy bog, slowing movement by driving boots to cover, than a dealer of fate's judgement.

That and they went and futzed with the netcode. Great for in-door battles but the rubber-banding played hell with sniping.

[Valdae]

The potency of the weapon, now that we've learned the lessons of CS, et al., is balanced by the limitations in usability. Scope settle, bullet drop, reload time, etc.

^^^^^^

This is spot on. PS2 will not have sniping in the style of Counter Strike, or Team Fortress so long as it takes time for the crosshairs to shrink when scoping. Thankfully PS1 had this feature when scoping the bolt driver, and I cant see any reason why it wont be implemented in the sequel.

Being unable to scope and fire a shot instantly will force snipers away from close combat, and frankly anyone who can headshot me when I'm running deserves to kill me!

As for getting my head blown off whilst I'm in cover, well, thats the idea of the game isn't it? FPS games arent always just about marching forward blowing away one opponent after the other. The smart games force you to take cover now and again, whilst bullets fly all around you. If someone shoots me I'll make sure I dont put myself in that situation next time. It's not like I'll blame it on the game being unbalanced.. :rolleyes:

[Malorn]

Pretty much just the first 6 months of the game (if that). Tons of soft targets rushing to and from towers and bases. Lots of bodies and, even then, only sniper teams were a real threat. Why? Essentially OHK. Anyone else was just annoying. Not that it wasn't fun pulling consecutive 200+ shots on moving targets but you were more like a muddy bog, slowing movement by driving boots to cover, than a dealer of fate's judgement.

That and they went and futzed with the netcode. Great for in-door battles but the rubber-banding played hell with sniping.

Heh in all the situations in the first 6 months where a sniper was useful I was in a Vanguard, which was far more effective and actually moved the front line by killing the AMS all the snipers were spawning at or suppressing the tower. And mowing down all of the soft targets rushing to and from towers & AMS. Tanks were king then. Not a lot of aircraft (no rearm pads meant dedicated pilots had loadouts with aircraft ammo & glue-guns, not Heavy Assault...my how things change with something as little as repair/rearm), so no natural enemies other than other tanks. Those were some good times.

[Valdae]

Heh in all the situations in the first 6 months where a sniper was useful I was in a Vanguard, which was far more effective and actually moved the front line by killing the AMS all the snipers were spawning at or suppressing the tower. And mowing down all of the soft targets rushing to and from towers & AMS. Tanks were king then. Not a lot of aircraft (no rearm pads meant dedicated pilots had loadouts with aircraft ammo & glue-guns, not Heavy Assault...my how things change with something as little as repair/rearm), so no natural enemies other than other tanks. Those were some good times.

I think in the beta the Vanu MAX's must have had a longer jump capacity, because I remember flying all over the countryside picking off snipers from 50 feet in the air. Too easy :D

[exLupo]

Thankfully PS1 had this feature when scoping the bolt driver, and I cant see any reason why it wont be implemented in the sequel.

My biggest beef with the BD, HSR and Lancer were the post-settle reticle bloom. I understand and approve of the need to block quick-scoping but being punished for adjusting aim once you've acquired your target was to much. Sure, early on (since we're reminiscing) when players always ran in a straight line it was fine but after the netcode change and every player juked randomly even when they were alone in sanc, it was too much. I'm really hoping that weapon mechanics follow a BF style. While I like TF2 (mostly for the laughs), the care for realistic response that's gone into that franchise has won my heart.

I haven't seen anything on it (could have easily missed info) but the "no die roll" comment makes me think that the CoF as we knew it will remain a thing of the past.

[Bags]

Aren't bullet spreads in all modern FPS random? They look as random as COF.

[exLupo]

Aren't bullet spreads in all modern FPS random? They look as random as COF.

At a basic level it's the same but the cone is much smaller. More of the accuracy issues are relegated to climb/recoil which is countered by player skill instead of pure, dumb luck.

[Bags]

Cone of fire can be countered by player skill. Burst fire for the win, baby.

[Senyu]

i think the problem with headshots here is that everyone is thinking it will be like a call of duty like sniper as in its really fing easy to headshot and get kills.

If a sniper is capable of headshot it should be clunky and take a bit of set up time and reload.

[exLupo]

If a sniper is capable of headshot it should be clunky and take a bit of set up time and reload.

Indeed. The concept, at its core and as we have seen in some games, is fine. The implementation is what we have to worry about.

[CutterJohn]

Indeed. The concept, at its core and as we have seen in some games, is fine. The implementation is what we have to worry about.

Which is true of every single mechanic they have proposed for PS2.

[Baneblade]

Heh in all the situations in the first 6 months where a sniper was useful I was in a Vanguard, which was far more effective and actually moved the front line by killing the AMS all the snipers were spawning at or suppressing the tower. And mowing down all of the soft targets rushing to and from towers & AMS. Tanks were king then. Not a lot of aircraft (no rearm pads meant dedicated pilots had loadouts with aircraft ammo & glue-guns, not Heavy Assault...my how things change with something as little as repair/rearm), so no natural enemies other than other tanks. Those were some good times.

Repair/Rearm Airpads hurt the game more than BFRs did. And I say that as a Reaver pilot and buggy/tank whore.