ADAD (Strafe) Spam

[Hamma]

Another thread just reminded me of this and I wanted to post to get peoples thoughts.

In PlanetSide people managed to master (and/or automate) ADAD spam. They would strafe back and forth so fast it was near impossible to hit them. Essentially they were exploiting the game systems (and lag) to their own advantage.

Some people think that is a big part of PlanetSide, I for one do not and think it takes a tremendous amount away from gameplay. I also thing it was one of the stupidest looking things in the game seeing someone do that.

What do you guys think?

[Manitou]

I dislike it, but I am not sure how they can restrict it.

[MrVicchio]

Anything that exploits tech limitations (lag) should be banned.

[Manitou]

Anything that exploits tech limitations (lag) should be banned.
How do you ban it? It would be near impossible to police that.

[MrVicchio]

I dislike it, but I am not sure how they can restrict it.

Same way Valve managed to take out the bunny hopping in CS, too many zig zags quickly as it were, tires you out and you can't strafe for a say 2 seconds.

[Sirisian]

I played the game with a 30 ms ping. Never had problem hitting them when they did that. Also if the game is more server-side with some proper player inertia that should help mitigate any problems we saw with strafing.

[Tool]

With the use of PhysX I assume there would be some form of momentum in character movement, not allowing for the rapid change in speed which caused the rubberbanding.

Just an assumption of course.

[Manitou]

Same way Valve managed to take out the bunny hopping in CS, too many zig zags quickly as it were, tires you out and you can't strafe for a say 2 seconds.
Good call...

[MrVicchio]

Good call...

Well gear it at the sort of behavior Hamma is speaking of.

[basti]

ADAD spam was a issue of ping, lag and extrapolation. Planetside 2 clearly uses different tech, so the issue will mostly go away, making ADAD spam just useless. You guys know how fast you are ADADing on your screen, now imagine the guy infront of you shooting at you would ADADspam in that speed. He would just sacrifice his COF for no gain.

[Tikuto]

/agree McVicchio!

[Bags]

If someone doesn't warp (like my friend) when they ADADA strafe they're amazingly easy to hit. It becomes a problem when people rubber band or fly through walls while shooting you.

As long as they can remove warping I say let us have our ADADA spam.

Not sure how it "takes away a lot from the game"... if you don't ADADA spam what do you do? Stand still? Run in a straight line? Not sure how that's more skillful.

[Gandhi]

We'll probably have to see the new netcode in action and go from there. I'd like it if they could tone it down a little, and like Tool said maybe the answer is in PhysX restricting how fast you can reverse direction. Reverse being key, because restricting how fast you can change direction at all usually makes the game feel really sluggish.

[Raymac]

Circle strafing is as old as pvp in a shooter. I'm not sure what could be done to to address the problem you mention other than improving the code. Death, taxes, and lag are unavoidable.

[basti]

If someone doesn't warp (like my friend) when they ADADA strafe they're amazingly easy to hit. It becomes a problem when people rubber band or fly through walls while shooting you.

As long as they can remove warping I say let us have our ADADA spam.

Not sure how it "takes away a lot from the game"... if you don't ADADA spam what do you do? Stand still? Run in a straight line? Not sure how that's more skillful.

You crouch and open fire, controlled bursts, maintaining your aim as long as possible, to actually hit the guy. That works well without extrapolation and the crazy warping Planetside has. With Plantsides issues, standing still was a bad idea, and the only real counter to ADAD was to ADAD yourself.

It never was fun seeing a guy warping from one side of a stairway to the other side, throu the wall, back to the opposing side and throu the wall again in less than a second, while he got his gun out.

Hamma, is there really someone out there that likes ADADADADADADADADADADADADADA? Just, wow. Guess those guys had 10% loss and a ping of OVER 9000! :D

[Warruz]

it could be handled by making you slower when you swap directions . Alot of games weather your aware of it or not have a sort of slow start then swapping directions when strafing initially .

[Bags]

You crouch and open fire, controlled bursts, maintaining your aim as long as possible, to actually hit the guy. That works well without extrapolation and the crazy warping Planetside has. With Plantsides issues, standing still was a bad idea, and the only real counter to ADAD was to ADAD yourself.

It never was fun seeing a guy warping from one side of a stairway to the other side, throu the wall, back to the opposing side and throu the wall again in less than a second, while he got his gun out.

Hamma, is there really someone out there that likes ADADADADADADADADADADADADADA? Just, wow. Guess those guys had 10% loss and a ping of OVER 9000! :D

How do people using jackhammers/sweepers crouch and fire in controlled bursts?

I never said it was fun for people to warp into the wall. There's nothing inherently wrong with ADAADA strafing. Sony's netcode just sucked ass.

And I enjoyed ADADADAD strafing and I had 60 ms with 0.0% loss.

[Marsman]

So far we know the PhysX engine will affect vehicles and projectiles. No reason to think that player movement won't be exempt from this either. Thus ADAD will probably be totally different with the physics of such movements involved. Mass, inertia, etc.. would probably prohibit rapid transitions in directions making ADAD useless and perhaps even a detriment as a tactic.

[Rbstr]

adad spam is something I've rarely encountered in any other game...and never did it work like PS.

There's just no justifiable reason for it to remain.

[razor851]

While ADAD rubber-banding was indeed an exploit, it helped speed up the otherwise unbearably slow nature of the game. Similar to powersliding, I actually think it helped to counter the slow, clunky, and "easy" feel that the game has. Since PlanetSide 2 is probably going to be a lot faster in every aspect of game play, I do hope they eliminate ADAD rubber-banding and fix all the shitty net coding problems of the original game.

[Ravanos]

I prefer the more tactical based fighting ... the whole move from cover to cover and fire from cover. I think the whole circle strafing thing looks silly as well.

i would like to see a accuracy penalty and/or movement penalty.

[Bags]

Then what the fuck is the point of heavy assault and shotguns?

[Kurtz]

Unfortunately the people who really exploited ADAD most successfully were also speed hacking. Their character wasn't just warping but was actually able to travel a greater distance with each press of A and each press of D than you were. They'd use lag as an excuse, but with low populations, that was a tough sell.

[Ravanos]

Then what the fuck is the point of heavy assault and shotguns?

well personally i hope in PS2 there wont a "heavy assault" per se. that some guns will be more useful in certain situations. :D

as for shotguns thats easy ... they are great in CQC situations. I ruin people in COD with my good ole shotty.

[Bags]

well personally i hope in PS2 there wont a "heavy assault" per se. that some guns will be more useful in certain situations. :D

as for shotguns thats easy ... they are great in CQC situations. I ruin people in COD with my good ole shotty.

Unfortunately for you heavy assault is all but confirmed. I don't get why everyone but me wants to remove everyone else's play styles on this forum...

And how do you crouch and burst fire with a shotgun? I hope you don't intend me to run straight at the enemy with a shotgun out, hence the need for A and D.

[Elude]

Strafe spam is really easy to fix, just give the player an acceleration value so he can't instantly strafe back, and forth at full speed.

Call of duty does this and I quite frankly hate it haha.

[Forsaken One]

In PlanetSide people managed to master (and/or automate) ADAD spam.

This is the way I see it. Its Monkey Movement, BUT at least in Planetside it wasn't such a level of BS as it was/is in many other games do to the relative slowness of a chars movement.

that being said I hope it, nor any other Monkey Movement . (bunny hoping, being able to jetpack+fire a gun at the same time etc.) will be in the game.

Some may think I want a "Reskinned Planetside 1." But I don't. I want a modern Planetside that still focus's on Teamwork, Tactics, strategy >>>>>> A Monkeys hand-eye.

I do however Think that zig-zaging while you have your gun to your chest/sprinting should be allowed. Its basic Tactics 101

[Ravanos]

Unfortunately for you heavy assault is all but confirmed. I don't get why everyone but me wants to remove everyone else's play styles on this forum...

I would say its more of a technique than a "playstyle". I got no problem with HA just hope it doesn't work like it did in PS1.

And how do you crouch and burst fire with a shotgun? I hope you don't intend me to run straight at the enemy with a shotgun out, hence the need for A and D.

like i said CQC, duck behind cover, jump out put a couple slugs in someone get behind more cover. ... repeat. no one said run straight at your enemy.

[Raymac]

This is the way I see it. Its Monkey Movement, BUT at least in Planetside it wasn't such a level of BS as it was/is in many other games do to the relative slowness of a chars movement.

that being said I hope it, nor any other Monkey Movement . (bunny hoping, being able to jetpack+fire a gun at the same time etc.) will be in the game.

Some may think I want a "Reskinned Planetside 1." But I don't. I want a modern Planetside that still focus's on Teamwork, Tactics, strategy >>>>>> A Monkeys hand-eye.

I do however Think that zig-zaging while you have your gun to your chest/sprinting should be allowed. Its basic Tactics 101

I'm pretty sure tactics will still trump...monkey movement, as you like to say. For example, I can be a great twitch player, but if you are behind cover and have a couple of teammates with you, all the circle strafing in the world won't beat you.

The devs are talking about hand crafting the whole map, both indoors and outdoors to give players cover points. Art of War style, good tactics should still prevail, but it will still be a skill based shooter.

[Lonehunter]

As long as your Cone of Fire or accuracy is increased while strafing then let it be, the improved tech will make it less of a problem and more of a gamestyle choice. More avoidance, less accuracy, and more bullet spam? Or more ammo conservation, better aim, quicker time to kill?

[Effective]

Here's how you fix warping. Planetside uses a form of clientside called extrapolation. Basically, walk forward for 5 seconds and stop. Bam, you just warped a little. You may not see it, and it may not be a lot. As your PC sends packets to the server, the server predicts where you're going to move to next. If you suddenly stop, the last packet before that received by the server will still have you moving forward, when the server receives the packet after you stopped, you'll warp back to that position. warping is just the server's inability to predict where your avatar should be at.

The solution? don't use extrapolation in PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_%28online_gaming%29#Client-side

[Rbstr]

Then what the fuck is the point of heavy assault and shotguns?

I don't really get what this question is referring to. Are you saying there's no reason to use a shotgun if you can't circle strafe, or if the game is more cover based?

Heavier guns and shotguns have plenty of usage in the faster TTK, more cover based games.
Part of the point of shotguns is the spread makes it easier to put damage on target with an off-the-hip shot. Not to mention the typical massive close range damage capability.
It is a charge in and fuck shit up gun...even in games like CS:S and BC2.

Heavy weapons are more powerful but more situational.

[Bags]

Here's how you fix warping. Planetside uses a form of clientside called extrapolation. Basically, walk forward for 5 seconds and stop. Bam, you just warped a little. You may not see it, and it may not be a lot. As your PC sends packets to the server, the server predicts where you're going to move to next. If you suddenly stop, the last packet before that received by the server will still have you moving forward, when the server receives the packet after you stopped, you'll warp back to that position. warping is just the server's inability to predict where your avatar should be at.

The solution? don't use extrapolation in PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_%28online_gaming%29#Client-side

Yay someone gets it.

[SKYeXile]

Yay someone gets it.

I think hes about one of about 10 people who play planetside that understands why people warp.

Planetside also sends ticks at about 5-7 per second, this is extreamly low, coupled with extra polation...yea, the corrections(or warp) you see onscreen are huge.

Planetside 2 i highly doubt will use this code, it will use interpolation where your client renders peoples movment between the last 2 packet received. you see everything 1 packet behind the data you have recived, but everything moves smoothly...most of the time. depending on the tickrate though, you may still see some whacky shit...like people walk through colloums...and im sure the new thing will be OMG CLIP HACKS!!!

[Hamma]

Nice post Effective! :)

[Bags]

Yup. If they can fix their shit, which I assume they will, ADADA should stay.

If not, add inertia or something.

[Punker]

Heavier guns and shotguns have plenty of usage in the faster TTK, more cover based games.

/agreed

Planetside's TTK is fairly long, and you'll really only see ADAD spamming in 1 on 1 skrimishes. It's not like you're both going to sit still and see who can get the most shots off first.

With the TTK lowered it shouldn't be as effective as it is now, but regardless - you'll still see it, it's been part of nearly every FPS game i've played since quake and imho if it gives you the edge against another player i don't see why people shouldn't be doing it.

[Forsaken One]

I'm pretty sure tactics will still trump...monkey movement, as you like to say. For example, I can be a great twitch player, but if you are behind cover and have a couple of teammates with you, all the circle strafing in the world won't beat you.


Needing to overrun a person with manpower do to the game coding stupidity stacking the odds in his favor because he's a Monkey on crack is not a valid tactic.

that's about the same as someone playing a super overpowered char in a RPG type game and needing to stunlock him with your team for 10+ seconds because that char was coded badly.

[Tool]

Needing to overrun a person with manpower do to the game coding stupidity stacking the odds in his favor because he's a Monkey on crack is not a valid tactic.

that's about the same as someone playing a super overpowered char in a RPG type game and needing to stunlock him with your team for 10+ seconds because that char was coded badly.

Do ever stop and read what you've been posting on these forums lately? If it isn't down-right vulgar or insulting, it's often been your very biased and distorted view on how gameplay in Planetside 2 will be.

Adjusting to potential change or being opposed to that change isn't bad but you've been hostile about little known gameplay mechanics in PS2. What I'm saying is your not being constructive or helpful in any way.

Being able to use cover in a meaningful way provides a great sense of real armed combat. Planetsides unique gunplay may be novel to some and I'm not knocking that, but more people appear to prefer more modern gunplay than that of games akin to PS1. Planetside 2 needs a healthy population, we've seen the effects of low pop in PS1 and the harm it causes.

Monkeys need to evolve at some point or they'll have a much harder time surviving when the enviorment around them changes.

[Bags]

/agreed

Planetside's TTK is fairly long, and you'll really only see ADAD spamming in 1 on 1 skrimishes. It's not like you're both going to sit still and see who can get the most shots off first.

.

Er, I ADADA spam in almost any indoor combat situation. You won't last long in a 20 vs 20 if you stand still.

[Punker]

Yeah my point exactly, but in a 20 vs 20 situation you're more than likely going to find cover opposed to ADAD out in the open (i would hope at least).

[Bags]

If everyone finds cover indoors then you'd never take a base.

[Tool]

If everyone finds cover indoors then you'd never take a base.

How is that logical or even truthfull at all?

[Bags]

How is that logical or even truthfull at all?

Have you ever taken a red alert base? If no one pushed in you could never capture it.

[Ravanos]

If everyone finds cover indoors then you'd never take a base.

because no one ever thought they could move from one cover spot to another cover spot advancing their position and trying to outflank the enemy.


nope if we talk about getting cover the whole time we are just cowering behind boxes.

[SKYeXile]

Have you ever taken a red alert base? If no one pushed in you could never capture it.

Clearly you have not played since the mobile cover patch.

[CutterJohn]

Here's how you fix warping. Planetside uses a form of clientside called extrapolation. Basically, walk forward for 5 seconds and stop. Bam, you just warped a little. You may not see it, and it may not be a lot. As your PC sends packets to the server, the server predicts where you're going to move to next. If you suddenly stop, the last packet before that received by the server will still have you moving forward, when the server receives the packet after you stopped, you'll warp back to that position. warping is just the server's inability to predict where your avatar should be at.

The solution? don't use extrapolation in PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_%28online_gaming%29#Client-side

Ever played a game that didn't use any predictive techniques? Its just as bad, in the opposite direction. Players will instanly stop moving when the packet is lost, and motion is jumpy and stuttery.


PS did a bad job, yes, but to say to not use any sort of prediction is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. PSs implementation was non optimal. Playable, but could be better.

[Bags]

Do it like TF2. Never had any issues with it.

[Tool]

Have you ever taken a red alert base? If no one pushed in you could never capture it.

What a silly question, honestly Bags, consider your argument. Strafing in those 20v20 fights indoors often resulted in more friendly fire than enemy. Using cover is just a different form of self preservation which isn't a shabby side effect from the games engine.

They said in those videos that taking bases/towers/etc. will not be as easy as in PS1. Did it really matter how long those red alerts lasted when bases had very little difference in their fight mechanics?

With increased weapon lethality it's safe to assume back and forth groundplay will be more prevalent in PS2. Each side gaining and loosing ground proportional to their combat effectiveness in the peticular engagement. Using cover like I said, is just that alternative to self preservation in firefights rather than strafing either in the open or into friendly fire.

Is that really so bad?

[SKYeXile]

Do it like TF2. Never had any issues with it.

I think hes about one of about 10 people who play planetside that understands why people warp.

Planetside also sends ticks at about 5-7 per second, this is extreamly low, coupled with extra polation...yea, the corrections(or warp) you see onscreen are huge.

Planetside 2 i highly doubt will use this code, it will use interpolation where your client renders peoples movment between the last 2 packet received. you see everything 1 packet behind the data you have recived, but everything moves smoothly...most of the time. depending on the tickrate though, you may still see some whacky shit...like people walk through colloums...and im sure the new thing will be OMG CLIP HACKS!!!

^ that is the code value use. but TF2 servers send packets typically at about 25-30 per second.

[Bags]

It wasn't easy to take bases in PS1, unless you blew the gen.

I just think hiding all game is lame compared to dodging.

Well tool, you like camping and I like in-your-face fighting so we're going to have to agree to disagree on this as we're not going to change each other's opinion.

Planetside already supported both types of combat so I'm not sure what the issue is.

[Punker]

I do agree with you there bags, if everyone was to sit behind cover 100% percent of the time then yeah it will become a massive stalemate.

There is a happy medium though, moving from cover to cover, corners, nooks, boxes etc increases your survivability substantially.

In the case you get pinned and outnumbered though - And you've got no choice but to go out guns-a-blazing, ADAD would dramatically increases your chances of doing some very decent damage to the enemy.

Saying that, my original point being that they've said the TTK is decreased in PS2, and cover will have to be the best option in most situations - keeping in mind i don't mean camping or humping a box, i'm talking about making sure you keep obstacles between your opponents and yourself until you have the advantage.

[Bags]

I'm fine with a happy medium. I personally don't support ADADA spam if it's a glitchy as PS1.

[Goku]

With the use of PhysX I assume there would be some form of momentum in character movement, not allowing for the rapid change in speed which caused the rubberbanding.

Just an assumption of course.

Nvidia cards are meant to use PhysX. Yes there is a CPU part, but it is awful performance. I think all games that use PhysX allow you to handle what level of Physics you want from off to high. I highly highly doubt PhysX is going to be that key in the game when half of Video card users use ATI.

[MasterChief096]

What I enjoyed about PlanetSide and its ADAD system is the fact that you had to "sustain" your aim on a target. Twitch-based games like battlefield show who is good at instantly raising iron sights and killing someone right away, but that doesn't mean that same person could MAINTAIN their aim for an extended period as would happen with ADAD fights in PlanetSide. This is what I respect about the system.

I don't really care either way though, I'm giving SOE the benefit of the doubt on the whole iron-sights-slower-movement idea. If anything when we get to beta test PS2 with thousands of players SOE will have a good idea if iron-sights and cover-humping will stalemate the game before the release, and should have ample time to fix it.

[Tool]

It wasn't easy to take bases in PS1, unless you blew the gen.

I just think hiding all game is lame compared to dodging.

Well tool, you like camping and I like in-your-face fighting so we're going to have to agree to disagree on this as we're not going to change each other's opinion.

Planetside already supported both types of combat so I'm not sure what the issue is.

It's not that I enjoy camping, I'm sorry if that's what it seemed I was advocating. In modern FPS or even TPS games with an inherant cover system, you don't find players using cover the majority of the time. Gears of War is a good example for TPS games, using cover often limited your mobility in close combat. Battlefield games have a good amount of varying cover on the maps but aren't utilized in the fashion you envision.

The note about having to maintain aim is a good one though. Higher TTKs forced players to do that sure, but player movement in PS1 was fairly slow compared to other similar games like Tribes. Without warping, players weren't that hard to land hits on consistantly, so 4 shots or 12 seemed like a moot point.

In my opinion, arena style gameplay is not befitting of a game that has the scale or depth Planetside has. To feel like I'm taking part in massive warfare I much prefer the feeling of more realistic gunplay, tactics and coordination.

Planetside 2 may be to the more or less extremes of modern shooters compared to that of PS1. Like i've said many other times, until we know more I think people need to calm down a bit with their conclusions on gameplay.