Outfit Specialisations

[DviddLeff]

So guys, what do we think outfits will be able to specialise in to customise and improve their outfits?

Higby I believe has already said that:

Outfits can specialise in certain classes, unlocking both visual benefits and upgrades for all its members if they choose that class to play.
Outfits can increase a member limitation cap.
Outfits have some very cool stuff coming.


In my upgrade project I suggested a great number of improvements for outfits (it was one of the first large articles I wrote regarding PS game development). You can see it in its entirety here (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/outfit-overhaul), but here are the bullet points:

First general changes for all outfits:

Outfit credit system for purchasing things (resources fill this role in PS2)
Applications to join (if there are no officers on players can still apply and get accepted later)
Automatic promotions (for BR/CR, etc)
Automatic demotions (griefing, TKs, etc)
Rank permission customisation
Outfit alliances
Outfit leadership/officer chat
Performance graphs (kills, XP, captures, etc)
Outfit mergers
Events log (see who has been kicking/promoting/recruiting)


Now here are the parts I suggest which can be unlocked via specialisation:

Outfit bunkers/outposts/bases (purchased with resources)
Naval (hover) Vehicles (purchased with resources)
In game outfit adverts (using the TV screens)
Outfit Divisions (would allow multiple specialisations in an outfit)
Outfit rank decals (show off your rank in the outfit)
Outfit leaders able to give out medals to their members
Outfit armour customisation (sounds like it will be in PS2)

[Bags]

But if we have in-game outfit adverts where will the Fanta ads go?

[CutterJohn]

I wonder if outfit experience gain will be normalized for the number of players in the outfit. As one who prefers small outfits, I would not like it if big ones 'leveled' faster. I'm sure the big ones would not like small ones leveling faster either, of course.

[Baneblade]

Outfit Airships

[Volw]

I wonder if outfit experience gain will be normalized for the number of players in the outfit. As one who prefers small outfits, I would not like it if big ones 'leveled' faster. I'm sure the big ones would not like small ones leveling faster either, of course.

That's how PS1 worked AND Matt confirmed it will important to specialise outfits. Should discourage zerg outfits, unless split into several small ones.

[Heaven]

I think if a member of your outfit takes some territory, it should have the empire colours and your outfit logo on so people can see your outfit did the job, plus this would give your outfit more points and some extra XP, this making outfits work together in squads. I think the outfit should DEFIANTLY get a logo maker instead of having pre-made ones so we can put our own touch on the game.

[Volw]

I think if a member of your outfit takes some territory, it should have the empire colours and your outfit logo on so people can see your outfit did the job, plus this would give your outfit more points and some extra XP, this making outfits work together in squads. I think the outfit should DEFIANTLY get a logo maker instead of having pre-made ones so we can put our own touch on the game.

I can already see people griefing to get their outfit the capture.

[Vancha]

Do we know whether outfits will have to pick a single specialization, or be able to spread their skills around in the same way as players?

It could be interesting to allow outfits to "combine" their chat, though that'd serve a similar purpose to an outfit alliance channel, if outfit alliances exist.

The only other thing off the top of my head would be letting people "spray" their outfit logo (similar to CS). Quick response outfits could spray the entrances to let allies know the base is being taken care of...Support outfits could spray their logo next to their AMS/Lode etc. or you could even have cloaker outfits spray their logo in enemy territory and ambush anyone who walks on it so you end up with a pile of corpses lying on top. ;)

[DviddLeff]

Originally Posted by Higby
Originally Posted by Firefly
How about Alliances?
We definitely recognize that the inclusion of role specific advantages as part of the outfit progression will lead players to wanting to create smaller specialized outfits / divisions. We do have a plans to address this and when we're ready to reveal more details on the outfits system (which seriously, seriously rules, by the way -- I think you guys are going to be really stoked with what we're doing here) you'll find out all about it.

That is what was said the other day.

Edit: regarding small outfits earning specialisations as quickly as larger ones. Its a tricky thing, and perhaps there should be no system which penalises larger outfits; what would happen if there was a small outfit that unlocked all the specialisations they wanted, and then massively recruited?

[CutterJohn]

Yeah, its tricky. It could be outfit certs will just be time based like the players, with bonuses for playing, and big outfits get some advantage, but not a huge one. 33 or 50% faster or something.

[EightEightEight]

Well bring on the Hate (You'll See)

So World of Warcraft has a great guild leveling system they have daily and weekly caps so that all guilds level at somewhat the same pace.

Granted larger outfits will hit the cap first because many more players contributing and all that but the caps allow smaller guilds to catch up through regular play

You also have to earn rep with the outfit to unlock different tiers of perks
You also have to work together as a guild to unlock the perks in the first place as well while dealing with the caps and not being able to the use the perks you help get because the personal requirement for them.

Pretty decent system will it work for PS2 who knows

[Vancha]

So World of Warcraft has a great guild leveling system they have daily and weekly caps so that all guilds level at somewhat the same pace.

Granted larger outfits will hit the cap first because many more players contributing and all that but the caps allow smaller guilds to catch up through regular play
Well it sounds like PS2 is going to have a better system than that already.

[Malorn]

I can already see people griefing to get their outfit the capture.

I remember seeing this in beta. People would shoot hackers so they could get the hack on the base.

Doesn't lead to a good culture.

[Malorn]

That is what was said the other day.

Edit: regarding small outfits earning specialisations as quickly as larger ones. Its a tricky thing, and perhaps there should be no system which penalises larger outfits; what would happen if there was a small outfit that unlocked all the specialisations they wanted, and then massively recruited?

They already have the problem of large outfits needing to split themselves up, AND large outfits need to train to add more players to them. Seems like some discouragement so far for large outfits. When this was brought up they said they have a lot more to reveal about outfits so it seems like they have an answer for the problem but they just haven't told us.

I suspect that the solution to this has two parts:

1) Outfits earn resources (this was stated), and more players could mean more resources (obviously)
2) Resources can be used to circumvent the cert tree (this was also stated). They didnt' specifically state it was the same way for outfits, but it isn't a huge leap. I think what this means is that you can spend resources on cert advancement. It might be expensive to do so but it could happen.
3) There might be outfit certs that allow creation of separate divisions and specify which bonuses each division gets.

If that's the case, then large outfits will collect more resources, which can be used to grow their certs faster than smaller outfits. IF those large outfits want to add more people, some of those certs will have to be spent on the expansion of the outfit, while others would have to be spent getting specializations for the different wings of the outfit.

If you're a smaller outfit then you dont' need the overhead of the growth and multiple advancements, but you'll also likely have a slower resource gain since you have fewer people. Seems like it could all balance out if they get the numbers right. If your outfit is extremely efficient then perhaps it can grow faster than another one normally, but since there's still a time component probably not all that much more. Depends on the numbers really.

I think we just need more information about the outfit system before we can speculate too much. Pretty much grasping at straws at this point.

[Heaven]

It could easily be fixed though, they could make it so you cant shoot friendly's while they are hacking, obv. enemies can. Because at the end of the day it makes no sense to shoot your own team, yes fair enough they are wanting to capture it for outfit XP them selves but there just going to have to get there before you.

[BorisBlade]

No WoW's guilds do not level even remotely close to the same speeds. Thats a myth. The caps keep em from just outlevelin each other 100x over but bigger guilds hit those caps everytime, small guilds usually dont even come close. The big guilds will move 2-3x faster than small ones.

If you dont make it so the guilds level very close to each other than you will HIGHLY encourage zerg guilds since power is attatched to leveling. If your choice is zerg guild that levels even only 50% faster or your smaller guild who levels slower and cant do all that cool new stuff, its not hard to see where people will go.

I like guild specialization and levelin but you will definately screw up many social groups and ultimately hurt the game if you dont keep the leveling fairly evenly paced. Weekly or monthly caps that the zerg guild might hit in a day or two for weekly or in a week or so for montly, but even the smaller guilds will still hit the caps with average playtime but maybe not til near the end of the month or week. They dont get stuff quite as fast as teh bigger guilds but overall they stay at the same pace. Best of both worlds. I would stay in a smaller guild if that were the case, but not if it were like WoW guild levelin.

[DviddLeff]

Here is a mock up of a possible layout for outfit specialisation:

https://2272339126426313088-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/home/Outfit%20Specialisations.png?attachauth=ANoY7cqimb-BhatxoY8KuEZE_qHPVFOFAAEPci8Afdnm0KbKZidZ8T1vLr3Qb b91BYONqHIOSX3duLlaBN8pXYRH69CpRHAl2U-zN-_WPjaPFUoE5fWYvV189xF3NezUbG0-q0b4fIrlfsQrm_wy2oByj-vqF6k0NcY8fEgOvC4qw-RANqUSLqC7YDzfkce8oYSj4M0E7JTYAlveFuGUJg72e-VO5xtaWxEH6ljUQPuFEliSH5woADA%3D&attredirects=0

Edit: May want to zoom in a bit to read it, not showing up correct size... or click this link to see it direct (https://2272339126426313088-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/home/Outfit%20Specialisations.png?attachauth=ANoY7cqimb-BhatxoY8KuEZE_qHPVFOFAAEPci8Afdnm0KbKZidZ8T1vLr3Qb b91BYONqHIOSX3duLlaBN8pXYRH69CpRHAl2U-zN-_WPjaPFUoE5fWYvV189xF3NezUbG0-q0b4fIrlfsQrm_wy2oByj-vqF6k0NcY8fEgOvC4qw-RANqUSLqC7YDzfkce8oYSj4M0E7JTYAlveFuGUJg72e-VO5xtaWxEH6ljUQPuFEliSH5woADA%3D&attredirects=0).

[Redshift]

No WoW's guilds do not level even remotely close to the same speeds. Thats a myth. The caps keep em from just outlevelin each other 100x over but bigger guilds hit those caps everytime, small guilds usually dont even come close. The big guilds will move 2-3x faster than small ones.

If you dont make it so the guilds level very close to each other than you will HIGHLY encourage zerg guilds since power is attatched to leveling. If your choice is zerg guild that levels even only 50% faster or your smaller guild who levels slower and cant do all that cool new stuff, its not hard to see where people will go.

I like guild specialization and levelin but you will definately screw up many social groups and ultimately hurt the game if you dont keep the leveling fairly evenly paced. Weekly or monthly caps that the zerg guild might hit in a day or two for weekly or in a week or so for montly, but even the smaller guilds will still hit the caps with average playtime but maybe not til near the end of the month or week. They dont get stuff quite as fast as teh bigger guilds but overall they stay at the same pace. Best of both worlds. I would stay in a smaller guild if that were the case, but not if it were like WoW guild levelin.

^the man speaks the truth

[exLupo]

Pardon me while I tablecloth math this out.

To put WoW guilds in perspective, the one I'm in was the first on our server to hit 25 and would probably hit the daily cap by 6-8am every day. I'm guessing probably 60-80 really active players? Might be higher but no more than 100 on a busy day. So assuming 80-100 hitting cap at 1/3rd the day, a solid 30, highly active members per day would keep rolling at the same rate per day. If PS2 used the same rate, that'd probably work out.

I'm more of an "big numbers for everyone!" kind of guy so double it for PS2. WoW guilds are designed to be all inclusive. PS2 outfits look to cater to much more specialized groups. If a minimum of 15 members were fully active, per day, and it kept up the same rate, I think that would be accessible enough.

Ultimately, it really depends on how niche these specializations are. Any flyer/tank or just reavers/lightnings? The more narrow the focus, the faster the leveling rate will need to be. This is all assuming you can't, in time, spend xp in every spec path. That'd be all in favor of zergfits, regardless of daily cap.

[Redshift]

Pardon me while I tablecloth math this out.

To put WoW guilds in perspective, the one I'm in was the first on our server to hit 25 and would probably hit the daily cap by 6-8am every day. I'm guessing probably 60-80 really active players? Might be higher but no more than 100 on a busy day. So assuming 80-100 hitting cap at 1/3rd the day, a solid 30, highly active members per day would keep rolling at the same rate per day. If PS2 used the same rate, that'd probably work out.

.

We were a 10 man raiding guild, we had 10 players that played a lot every day. We didn't make the cap every time, so we had to get a shed load of noobs added that we then muted in guild chat, just to keep up. That is not good game design.

Outfit size should be irrelevent if outfit tree's make gameplay differences

[exLupo]

With an aggregate leveling system, I don't see a way to separate guild size from rate of progression completely. The only way I can see is to make the caps with small numbers in mind.

Sucks for zergfits who want to go fast but, frankly, they can eat it. Design around tight groups. If they really want to do that, they'll leave the daily caps accessible while creating a formal, inter-outfit alliance structure as well.

[Lunarchild]

With an aggregate leveling system, I don't see a way to separate guild size from rate of progression completely. The only way I can see is to make the caps with small numbers in mind.

Sucks for zergfits who want to go fast but, frankly, they can eat it. Design around tight groups. If they really want to do that, they'll leave the daily caps accessible while creating a formal, inter-outfit alliance structure as well.

I think a better way would be to divide the amount of progression made by the amount of people in the outfit. Or a portion of that. That way more active outfits level faster than less active ones, but size no longer matters.

[exLupo]

That leads to outfits kicking members who have to go irl for a while. Maybe divide the progress by the number of active members per day? Then one person having a rl emergency or 50 that got invited only to unsub, no harm either way.

[Lunarchild]

That leads to outfits kicking members who have to go irl for a while. Maybe divide the progress by the number of active members per day? Then one person having a rl emergency or 50 that got invited only to unsub, no harm either way.

That's why I also suggested a portion. It would not be that big of an issue if 50% - 75% would be required to be active. Still, I like your solution as well :)

[Trolltaxi]

Planetside (1) is still somewhat alive and that is because of the outifts that grew out of the boundries of the game. If the new outfit system forces outfits to keep tight and all his members must be active, it will be counterproductive in the long run, as outfits must leave behind their inactive players. That won't help building the community and without community the game looses the players too. Without mass players, PS is nothing.

Some of the outfits have put a lots of effort to train their new members. If the new outfit system doesn't encourage teaching (or "punishes" it with slower advance due to the less effective members) the game will loose a significant part of the playerbase again. See above for results.

What would stop 2-10 men to form "outfits" to get all the benefits fast with their 1337 individual playing (and possibly advancing fast on the tree)? What is the purpose of having hundreds of squad sized mini-outfits (even allied) if we could have some huge forces under that same leadership.

Smallfits are like mercenary companies or bands of bandits selling their steel to anyone. An outfit - in my opinion - is something way bigger, a force that can act independently having all the resources to do that. Not just a specialized squad like the "10 men raiding guild" Redshift have mentioned.

[Chaff]

So guys, what do we think outfits will be able to specialise in to customise and improve their outfits?

Higby I believe has already said that:

Outfits can specialise in certain classes, unlocking both visual benefits and upgrades for all its members if they choose that class to play.
Outfits can increase a member limitation cap.
Outfits have some very cool stuff coming.


In my upgrade project I suggested a great number of improvements for outfits (it was one of the first large articles I wrote regarding PS game development). You can see it in its entirety here (https://sites.google.com/site/planetsideupgradeproject/phase-2/outfit-overhaul), but here are the bullet points:

First general changes for all outfits:

Outfit credit system for purchasing things (resources fill this role in PS2)
Applications to join (if there are no officers on players can still apply and get accepted later)
Automatic promotions (for BR/CR, etc)
Automatic demotions (griefing, TKs, etc)
Rank permission customisation
Outfit alliances
Outfit leadership/officer chat
Performance graphs (kills, XP, captures, etc)
Outfit mergers
Events log (see who has been kicking/promoting/recruiting)


Now here are the parts I suggest which can be unlocked via specialisation:

Outfit bunkers/outposts/bases (purchased with resources)
Naval (hover) Vehicles (purchased with resources)
In game outfit adverts (using the TV screens)
Outfit Divisions (would allow multiple specialisations in an outfit)
Outfit rank decals (show off your rank in the outfit)
Outfit leaders able to give out medals to their members
Outfit armour customisation (sounds like it will be in PS2)



LIKE IT ! :thumbsup:

[Sovereign]

That's why I also suggested a portion. It would not be that big of an issue if 50% - 75% would be required to be active. Still, I like your solution as well :)

To further this I think it should vary and be contingent on the outfit, for instance if its a 'hardcore' outfit then obviously they would want the lesser percentage.

[DviddLeff]

With the increased population capacity of the new games continents, I really hope we see companies as well as platoons as in game organisational structures.

I also hope we see more large (ie more than 30 players on at a time) coordinated outfits emerging, so we see some proper strategy emerging.

[Chaff]

I think a better way would be to divide the amount of progression made by the amount of people in the outfit. Or a portion of that. That way more active outfits level faster than less active ones, but size no longer matters.


I think this approach will minimize zergfits from dominating the landscape or gameplay. An outfit should progress based on activity/productivity per memebr online that day. If you're in a small outfit, it should only penalize your progress if you're all a bunch of incompetent players (noobs ?)

Established Zerg-ish Sized outfits live off recruiting newbies...and being around veteran players is the best way to lessen ones learning curve in the game. I am NOT against BIG Outfits. Sheer Outfit member numbers should do nothing - but help increase the chances of launching epic raids - this should be the ONE primary benefit of being in big/huge outfits - and it is compelling enough to ensure most big Outfits stay big and influencial.

Huge outfits can more easily sustain a huge ego(asshat).....cuz newbs won't know better. Keep the game BALANCED - that means don't punish small Outfits - they're good for the game. Everyone needs room to find their role(s) .... and moreso, Outfit variety will help prevent players leaving the game. The more players that choose to stay - the better things should be.

PS2 should do what's needed to help increase the chances that each player can find a good home - that will eventually become family/friends. :love:

[Chaff]

Planetside (1) is still somewhat alive and that is because of the outifts that grew out of the boundries of the game. If the new outfit system forces outfits to keep tight and all his members must be active, it will be counterproductive in the long run, as outfits must leave behind their inactive players. That won't help building the community and without community the game looses the players too. Without mass players, PS is nothing.

Some of the outfits have put a lots of effort to train their new members. If the new outfit system doesn't encourage teaching (or "punishes" it with slower advance due to the less effective members) the game will loose a significant part of the playerbase again. See above for results.

What would stop 2-10 men to form "outfits" to get all the benefits fast with their 1337 individual playing (and possibly advancing fast on the tree)? What is the purpose of having hundreds of squad sized mini-outfits (even allied) if we could have some huge forces under that same leadership.

Smallfits are like mercenary companies or bands of bandits selling their steel to anyone. An outfit - in my opinion - is something way bigger, a force that can act independently having all the resources to do that. Not just a specialized squad like the "10 men raiding guild" Redshift have mentioned.



Got it. I'm revising my opinion. I understated the BENEFITS of the BIG outfit(s).

"An outfit should progress based on activity/productivity per memebr online that day"
(I still like this as perhaps the driving force behind the advancement of Outfits)
.

[Soothsayer]

I would feel uneasy about artificially limiting outfit progression on an arbitrary number.

Whats the matter with large outfits that they need to be limited in such a way?

I would go as far as to say that quite a few believe that larger outfit = zerg. If zerg outfits are terrible, they won't produce as many resources per member and will have slower per member advancement.

What about large outfits comprised of skilled members?

Who is being held back here, and what are the reasons for holding them back?

If an outfit can bring in disproportionate gains compared to the rest, then let them keep their gains. If its just numbers and minimal skill, what difference does it make? All that would mean is that the biggest outfit with the lowest skilled players have a higher level outfit.

Doesn't mean that their members will get respect on the field.

That said, I think that in either case, if a cap system is put in place it should focus on active players. When I take a break from PS, its always nice to still have an outfit that I'm a part of when I get back...

[kaffis]

Edit: regarding small outfits earning specialisations as quickly as larger ones. Its a tricky thing, and perhaps there should be no system which penalises larger outfits; what would happen if there was a small outfit that unlocked all the specialisations they wanted, and then massively recruited?
The idea is that the experience needed to gain whatever experience-based advancement there is would scale to the number of people in it, so this doesn't happen.

Small outfits don't level faster. They just require less experience because there are fewer people in it to earn the experience.

Thus, an outfit that starts small, advances a lot, and then goes on a recruiting spree has the same level (or whatever) as the outfit that immediately recruited a ton of people and then worked on its advances -- providing that the average amount of experience earned per player is similar between the two.

So advance and then recruit doesn't "get you ahead."

Now, I have a feeling that outfit advancement will be based on a time component, as well, so such a mechanic might not be necessary -- as time is not something that can be cumulatively gained. 5 players will offer their outfit as much time (that is 1x however long the outfit's been around) as 500 players (also 1x however long the outfit's been around).

Now, if, like players, there's an acceleration factor for time spent playing, that may have to scale -- say, the average amount of time played across all players for the last week, or whatever; rather than saying "so long as somebody's logged in, the outfit counts as getting the played time bonus," which would penalize small groups that all play at the same time vs. large groups with playtimes spread throughout the day to maintain a constant presence.

[kaffis]

As for enabling people to take breaks from the game without penalizing their outfit or forcing their outfit to kick them out to avoid a penalty, I'd suggest a "reserve" status, where a reserve member doesn't count towards the active player metrics, but can't earn progress for them, either.

That way, if your buddy Joe just had a kid and hasn't logged in for 2 weeks, you can just have an officer bump him down to reserve status. He gets a chance to log in on a day when his wife took the kid to visit her parents? He can play, with his outfit, no hassles. When things settle down and he gets regular game time again, to whatever standard the outfit wants to encourage, he says "hey guys, I'm available again" and gets taken off reserve status.

I'd even allow a member to voluntarily put themselves on reserve.

[Soothsayer]

As for enabling people to take breaks from the game without penalizing their outfit or forcing their outfit to kick them out to avoid a penalty, I'd suggest a "reserve" status, where a reserve member doesn't count towards the active player metrics, but can't earn progress for them, either.

That way, if your buddy Joe just had a kid and hasn't logged in for 2 weeks, you can just have an officer bump him down to reserve status. He gets a chance to log in on a day when his wife took the kid to visit her parents? He can play, with his outfit, no hassles. When things settle down and he gets regular game time again, to whatever standard the outfit wants to encourage, he says "hey guys, I'm available again" and gets taken off reserve status.

I'd even allow a member to voluntarily put themselves on reserve.

Good call, that addresses one of my primary concerns.

[Sovereign]

Indeed, reserve settings should be designated to outfits so they can have proper administration.