A Cloakers plea

[Huma]

My biggest hope for Planetside 2 is that they finally fix some of the most fexing problems for cloakers. One of the main problems being that people can tweak their vid cards to the point where they can see cloakers without Darklight. I know some people defend it as just using your system properly but it completely kills a whole playstyle thats only protection is its stealth.
The other thing I would like to see removed is that cloakers show when a commander uses Reveal Enemies. There is already enough trouble out there to look out for as a cloaker without having something you can't even prevent hanging over your head. I know theres no confirmation of that ability in PS2 yet but I'm hoping its addressed if it is.
Otherwise cloaker mechanics are just find as long as you understand their limits.

[duomaxwl]

I'm not sure I agree with removal of reveal enemy. If you keep moving you shouldn't have an issue. What I would like to see is friendly fire damage reduced for cloakers. I die more to my NC "comrades" than I do to the enemies.

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[Grimster]

I'm not sure I agree with removal of reveal enemy. If you keep moving you shouldn't have an issue. What I would like to see is friendly fire damage reduced for cloakers. I die more to my NC "comrades" than I do to the enemies.

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Haha, I hear you. I know I have many times accidently squished some poor friendly cloaker with my Vanguard. But I am not sure this should be reduced because in my opinion this would be a skill to master for a cloaker to be able to place themselves in the right position out of harms way from friendly fire.

Just my opinion though. :)

[MgFalcon]

I don't always roll sniper. But when I do, I shoot friendly cloakers.

[duomaxwl]

I don't always roll sniper. But when I do, I shoot friendly cloakers.

That guy is like the sean connery of beer. Anyway, sometimes it just seems like friendlies go out of their way to hit up cloakers. :/

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[Huma]

I'm not sure I agree with removal of reveal enemy. If you keep moving you shouldn't have an issue. What I would like to see is friendly fire damage reduced for cloakers. I die more to my NC "comrades" than I do to the enemies.

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Sorry I forgot to clarify. By remove reveal enemy I meant remove cloakers from showing up on it :)

[Death2All]

I'm sure from launch they will have optimized it to not be a problem.

Come 4-5 years when all these cards are obsolete the problem may rise again, but if SOE is adamant on keeping PS a success hopefully they'll fix the issue.

[HawkEye]

I'm not sure I agree with removal of reveal enemy. If you keep moving you shouldn't have an issue. What I would like to see is friendly fire damage reduced for cloakers. I die more to my NC "comrades" than I do to the enemies.

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What are you doing that gets you killed by friendlies so much? If you are in the front of a base push or tower push as a cloaker you deserve to die to friendly fire.

[Hamma]

They have said this is one of their top priorities I hope that they work out some of the many cloaker issues in the game, some involve cheating others just changing settings.

[duomaxwl]

I generally try to stay away the zerg. I never try to push in as a cloaker. People will see a shimmer and shoot before they see if a name is green or red. I could be on a hill or on the walls of a base doing recon and get hit by greenies who don't check their radar to see if someone is a green dot or not. I mean I understand that it is hard to avoid sometimes, but I hope the devs can figure something out.

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[Huma]

I really hope they do fix some issues. I really love cloaking and I would love to see them get some love for a change. I'm extremely excited just to see the goodies in the skill tree for them. Though there are some key roles a cloaker can play on tower and base pushes. Just harder to do well with it :)

[Malorn]

Cloakers like everyone else in the game need to learn to avoid large moving objects and putting themselves in positions where they are likely to take friendly fire. As an above poster noted dealing with friendly fire is a skill everyone needs to learn, including cloakers.

[duomaxwl]

I agree, but there are times when friendlies will shoot at you even when there are no enemies around just because they can easily TK someone without armor. Hopefully there will be a form of deterrent in planetside 2 for that.

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[ShowNoMercy]

Can't wait to see if there are outfits that can specialize in cloaking. One of the best times i had was being in a squad full of cloakers. The "wtf" look when a guy turns on his DL and sees 10 cloakers in front of him is pretty damn great.

I don't think reveal enemies is of concern to cloakers, unless you are out picking berries in the forest you don't have much to worry about, just stay moving. If anything, a notification when you have been revealed would be more than sufficient.

As for friendly fire, perhaps they should make it so friendlies can see you and only enemies cant?

[Malorn]

Matt mentioned the grief system would be back but they're revising it. So the changes to it could be meant to stop that sort of behavior.

There was a larger problem where certain weapons could kill with only 10 grief points while others racked up a lot more. I expect them to normalize that a bit and discourage the behavior you describe.

[duomaxwl]

Both the revised grief and friendlies seeing cloakers could work great.

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[Malorn]

Yes actually being able to see friendly cloakers would help.

So would removing the warping from PS1. Helps if the cloakers are actually at the location you think they are.

[Chaff]

I don't think the cloakers need much help. If you're invisible - part of the inherent risk SHOULD be from friendlies (clueless).

.....although in PS2...maybe the respective empires have advanced cloaking technology to where friendlies can "see" cloakers. Even then - kill whores will still mow them down in pursuit of kills. Cloakers will still need to stay on the fringe of things.

Usually I died (while cloaking) when I got greedy. Not being patient enough moving in on a sniper, dude repairing vehicle in field, or unattentive infantry. Or, being DUMB - trying to sneak into a crowded tower fight ..... especially stupid when plasma spamming is prevelent.

....it was worth the risk if it was a small-numbers tower fight - maybe only 2 opposing squads....then you had a real (yet slim) chance of sneaking down to the terminals, hacking out your pounder Max, taking down the spawn tubes, and accelerating you squad getting to the next objective.

I am more against allowing friendlies to see cloakers than I am for it, but I guess it's fine. This is getting into minutiae - micro-managing gameplay.

[Treerat]

I think my poor cloaker died about 5 times from friendly fire to every time he died from hostile fire. What made it worse was this was using a lot of tricks to avoid being found; sneaking right next to the wall, putting the enemy between my and my "comrades", or just trying to get across a road in the middle of almost nowhere only to get run down by an ANT or AMS, pegged (and revealed if not killed outright) by stray fire, etc. And that is excluding all the times just shooting at an enemy got my face filled with MCG rounds for, and I directly quote, "stealing a kill" in the middle of a multi-squad firefight.

Friendlies being able to see cloakers (even just the name tags when scoped in) would help. A grief system that could separate the normal "Grenade... CRAP!" from the "I'll just shoot through the cloaker" to "hahaha! Die silly no-HA-spamming fool!" intentional shots and punish accordingly (ie. careful-next-time to banned-for-6-months). In the later case I think factoring some of Battlefield2 forgive/ punish system would work. Perhaps if someone accumulated a set number of TK kills that were not forgiven the punishment would A) drastically escalate and B) flag that account for closer review by CSRs to determine if additional corrective measures are needed.

Bad positioning happens. So does pure dumb luck. But when people simply don't even care if they kill a friendly cloaker or intentionally do so, that says to me that there is a problem that needs some serious correction. I'm hopeful that this time SOE won't wait until the damage is already done before fixing problems (with the mechanics or the players).

[Chaff]

I think my poor cloaker died about 5 times from friendly fire to every time he died from hostile fire. What made it worse was this was using a lot of tricks to avoid being found; sneaking right next to the wall, putting the enemy between my and my "comrades", or just trying to get across a road in the middle of almost nowhere only to get run down by an ANT or AMS, pegged (and revealed if not killed outright) by stray fire, etc. And that is excluding all the times just shooting at an enemy got my face filled with MCG rounds for, and I directly quote, "stealing a kill" in the middle of a multi-squad firefight.

Friendlies being able to see cloakers (even just the name tags when scoped in) would help. A grief system that could separate the normal "Grenade... CRAP!" from the "I'll just shoot through the cloaker" to "hahaha! Die silly no-HA-spamming fool!" intentional shots and punish accordingly (ie. careful-next-time to banned-for-6-months). In the later case I think factoring some of Battlefield2 forgive/ punish system would work. Perhaps if someone accumulated a set number of TK kills that were not forgiven the punishment would A) drastically escalate and B) flag that account for closer review by CSRs to determine if additional corrective measures are needed.

Bad positioning happens. So does pure dumb luck. But when people simply don't even care if they kill a friendly cloaker or intentionally do so, that says to me that there is a problem that needs some serious correction. I'm hopeful that this time SOE won't wait until the damage is already done before fixing problems (with the mechanics or the players).



If cloaking existed in real life....would YOU risk standing in front of some HA grunt ? Gut instincst should tell you it is a BAD IDEA. Brutal as it is....it's realistic. The grief system seems to work. I hear what you're saying, but I tend to like it how it is. IMO cloakers only belong up-front near the heavy action for hacking or CE. Too many bullets flying to be near the front lines of heavy action when all you have on is your invisible jammies.

If the action is "light" friendlies should NOT TK you becasue it's easy & they're asshats. In those instances, I would support some sort of suspention/penalty as a possible solution to chronic offenders.

[WarChimp130]

I used to spend a lot of time as a Cloaker, it was one of the main things I did and I used to like to live in the middle of a zerg pot shotting people with my Repeater. Did very well with it. But eventually all the gamma tweaking just got wayyyyyy to prevalent to bother with.

I think if you want to change it, make cloaking 100% invisible period while moving but give it a timer for movement. Like you can run for 30 seconds completely invisible but at the end of those 30 seconds you begin to show. If you stop and sit still for a while it recharges. Kinda of like the Cloak and Dagger in TF2 type of thing.

[xcel]

I don't always roll sniper. But when I do, I shoot friendly cloakers.

This made me rofl.

[SilverLord]

I'm not sure I agree with removal of reveal enemy. If you keep moving you shouldn't have an issue. What I would like to see is friendly fire damage reduced for cloakers. I die more to my NC "comrades" than I do to the enemies.

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I am completely against getting rid of reveal enemies as well, it is actually quite useful for spotting enemy AMS/Router as well as pesky cloakers that keeps hacking friendly deployables in our CY!

Nerfing friendly fire for specific classes is never a good route to go, and some asshat will easily find a way to exploit this.

[Robert089]

I've only just rolled a cloaker character and been trying it out, it is pretty difficult to do anything as a cloaker because it seems like everybody flicks darklight on and off all the time. I realise this isn't actually the case but there have been times where people have flicked DL on for no apparent reason or a reaver swoops in from miles above and fires a salvo of rockets on me with pin point accuracy.

When you actually manage to pull off something as a cloaker though it is so much more rewarding, I managed to hack a field turret out from under a guy and proceeded to mow down a hill full of snipers and lancer users with it, I felt like such a bad ass.

[Mightymouser]

They have said this is one of their top priorities I hope that they work out some of the many cloaker issues in the game, some involve cheating others just changing settings.

That's scary...

On the other points of the thread:

Leave reveal enemies alone; if there is an annoying cloaker who hacks your base then runs and sits in some isolated part of your base for 5 minutes just to come back and hack again; They deserve to be found with a reveal enemies; without it hunting down those cloakers would be nearly impossible...

Leave friendly fire as it is; If you're running in between your guys and the enemy; you risk getting shot. That's just part of the job; I'm not saying running between an active fight is always a bad idea; I do it pretty often, but it has it's trade offs. Part of the reason it works so well is the enemy is worried about getting shot, not a cloaker; therefore you should have to worry about the same thing. If you get TKed; suck it up and try again, or else try a safer path...

Friendlies being able to see cloakers might be nice, but I can also see how it would be annoying to friendlies. By which I mean, if you are a cloaker surging down a stairwell where there is an active fight; you shouldn't expect your teammates to stop firing for you; and you bouncing around their screen is as likely to get you shot as anything...

[Hamma]

That's scary...

Why is it scary their top priority is hackers? :p

[Mightymouser]

Why is it scary their top priority is hackers? :p
It's scary that they're mucking around with "cloaker issues"...

[Hamma]

Well people seeing cloakers was also a big issue, especially when people were hacking or messing with Gamma.

[Treerat]

If cloaking existed in real life....would YOU risk standing in front of some HA grunt ? Gut instincst should tell you it is a BAD IDEA. Brutal as it is....it's realistic. The grief system seems to work. I hear what you're saying, but I tend to like it how it is. IMO cloakers only belong up-front near the heavy action for hacking or CE. Too many bullets flying to be near the front lines of heavy action when all you have on is your invisible jammies.

If the action is "light" friendlies should NOT TK you becasue it's easy & they're asshats. In those instances, I would support some sort of suspention/penalty as a possible solution to chronic offenders.

Thing is, I wasn't being "up front". I was the one trying to work his way around to do back-rank (and low/no-kill) actions like finding the enemy AMSs, hacking base doors ahead of Galaxy drops, or just trying to sneak into a quiet corner of the base so I could fed intelligence on enemy defenses inside or throw a few jammers before a big rush. Yet there was almost always some moron (too many times with a backpack and a "big name" outfit tag) who simply refused to look at his radar, for the green tag, or anything else before firing like a lunatic at anything in front of him. And in a real firefight, some of the most important things are to know where you own people are and to check your target before shooting - not only so you don't hit your own side thinking they're the enemy, but so if you miss your shot doesn't go through a wall or over the enemies heads only to kill one of your people. Soldiers who don't do that very quickly end up being discharged, placed in non-combat units, or simply not coming back at all because no one wants to be around them for fear they could be the one in front of his muzzle next time.

At least if cloakers were visible to their own side it cut down on the true accidental incidents, and make the "I'm a reckless moron and/ or a brat who thinks TKing is fun" times more apparent. And with a forgive/ punish system those actual real mistakes would hurt the person less and have impact on the ones who are the bane of organized outfits.

[opticalshadow]

yeah the gamma tweakers were the worst in ps1, though iknow that form of cloak was kinda a limitation of the tech, atleast thats what was said.

[Talek Krell]

As someone who flickers darklight a lot, I'd like to point out that I don't do it for "no apparent reason". I check darklight whenever I suspect a cloaker is about. And I always suspect that a cloaker is about. Always. THey're everywhere you see. Watching. Waiting. Waiting for an opportunity. A weakness. And then they get you! But they won't get ME no NO! Hehe! I'm always watching too! Always! They won't get me! HahahAHahehaheheehee

[Vancha]

A redesign of DL certainly wouldn't hurt. I like the darklight torch attachment mentioned in the other thread, but there's really so many ways they could tweak it...

[Redshift]

I spend about half of my time in an infil suit and i've honestly never had a problem being killed by people i suspected of tweeking settings, it's mostly a situation awarness problem, most of the time i kill another infil it's because they're running or surging in plain view

[exLupo]

A couple of things.

Barring straight up hacks, I don't think gamma fiddling or new video cards will be a problem. No modern shooter -besides- PS has had this issue. Maybe Tribes 2, dunno.

As far as cloaker exposure, it comes down to everyone who -isn't- invisible hating and/or fearing everyone who is. Play TF2 for a while. Everyone and their dog does what is called Spychecking. Basically meleeing, shooting or straight up unloading on every friendly unit that walks by to make sure it isn't a spy. Sucks for spies but if they don't then it's backstab city and engineer nests getting demolished left and right. PS's analogue is the paranoid DL flicker. If a fly farts, toggle on/off. Sucks for cloakers but, again, backstab city and destroyed assets. We've yet to hear about their cloaker balance plans but if they're too liberal, expect players to make a stink between launch and server shutdown.

Personally, I'm a fan of keeping invisible units as something to be feared. As a long time spy player and, before that, cloaker, it's a rough life. I feel that games tend to cater to the rest of the classes. TF2 has found a nice balance but the skill floor for spy is much higher than most classes. PS1, on the other hand, left infiltrating as a novelty; it was frairly impotent and without a real role specifically due to a combination of interlinks, DL and CR pings. And, no, putting on an infil suit for 30 seconds to drop an OS doesn't count as a "role".

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course. :)

[Vancha]

^
I will say, when 1 boomer could down a tube, I could end battles. :D

Sneaking into spawn rooms and taking down the tubes in a busy base was the best part of being a cloaker for me, but then they messed it up.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what they do with infiltrators in PS2 though. I imagine the class/skills system will allow SOE to do great things with them.

[DxC]

My Cloaking adventures did not start till I got CR5 and BR25 I rember loving the boomer in a busy corridor trick was good times 5+ kills if you pulled it off and dodged the plasma spam...

Personaly I realy want them to hopefully make Cloakers decent and less likely to cause a issue as the idea of sneaking around not being seen is fantastic Snipers beware!

for me Cloaking in a busy base was a real challenge I also rember Boomerman PS video loved it so many ideas from that alone

Taking your time in cloaking not just rushing in and spraying and praying often helped

[Malorn]

A couple of things.

Barring straight up hacks, I don't think gamma fiddling or new video cards will be a problem. No modern shooter -besides- PS has had this issue. Maybe Tribes 2, dunno.

As far as cloaker exposure, it comes down to everyone who -isn't- invisible hating and/or fearing everyone who is. Play TF2 for a while. Everyone and their dog does what is called Spychecking. Basically meleeing, shooting or straight up unloading on every friendly unit that walks by to make sure it isn't a spy. Sucks for spies but if they don't then it's backstab city and engineer nests getting demolished left and right. PS's analogue is the paranoid DL flicker. If a fly farts, toggle on/off. Sucks for cloakers but, again, backstab city and destroyed assets. We've yet to hear about their cloaker balance plans but if they're too liberal, expect players to make a stink between launch and server shutdown.

Personally, I'm a fan of keeping invisible units as something to be feared. As a long time spy player and, before that, cloaker, it's a rough life. I feel that games tend to cater to the rest of the classes. TF2 has found a nice balance but the skill floor for spy is much higher than most classes. PS1, on the other hand, left infiltrating as a novelty; it was frairly impotent and without a real role specifically due to a combination of interlinks, DL and CR pings. And, no, putting on an infil suit for 30 seconds to drop an OS doesn't count as a "role".

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course. :)

This is pretty dead-on. With increased lethality of weapons in PS2 if cloakers aren't kept in check with sufficient tools then it'll run wild with cloaked ganking. I'd prefer to err on the side of "challenging" for a cloaker in PS2 for that reason.

[RavenUSC3]

I used to only use the infiltrator in the early days of the game. I believe the purpose is for just that, infiltration, and scouting. I combined this with moving up the command ranks and early on NC on Emerald had real time communication about what was going on and where in the next base because I was already there. I was using it for scouting purposes though, and not in the middle of the fight.

As far as the reveal enemies goes, doesn't sensor shield take care of that? I use that along with surge if I do happen to load up infiltrator during a battle. I'll just surge through friendly or enemy with the combined speed of the infiltrator and surge. Rarely is anyone able to react quick enough to do anything about it when they see you, and they will, because you're flying through hallways. What generally happens is the 20-30 people that see you running through the base turn around to follow and you'll end up with 20-30 enemies backpedalling to the basement, allowing your guys to push through up top.

I still enjoy using the cloaker and when done right I think its really useful. I had become so good at sneaking around back in the day that even in rexo I can still find myself being able to sneak in to bases. As one poster said above, its all about patience, and most people don't have that. Someone else summed it up too, as an infiltrator, you need to learn to stay the hell out of the way, and really that goes for anyone. If a friendly is firing on some enemies up ahead and you jump in front of him, you should get shot.

[Duriel]

i look forward to the changes....I hope they keep it close to what it is...with skill a cloaker can change a battle if they are lacking in skill they are a nice fast kill...:evil:

just eliminate the cheaters(which im sure they will)

it would be cool to see cloaker suits boost hacking or something like that. while wearing the suit the hacking is faster or you can hack deeper into the system...something.

[Huma]

I've always loved cloaking. Nothing is more satisfying than jacking a vital AMS or flipping a hack at the last moment. I also realize that clockers are meant to die. I don't have a problem with Dark Light and I think it should stay the way it is. If you dont like getting flicked either don't give them a reason to flick DL. My only real hope is that they give us more tools. Especially for those of us that aren't concerned so much with killing as we are with controlling the battlefield.
As has been said before a truely dangerous cloaker is patient, resourceful, skilled at maneuvering, and sneaky. Learn to control your stealth bloom and learn your enemy. Then watch their tactic change as you take out the vital areas of their operation.

[opticalshadow]

they should just add a timer to re activating DL, it woudl stop the random sweeping as much.

[Soothsayer]

I'd say keep reveal enemies the way it is, if its being kept at all.

I'm hoping that with all they are saying about engies and hackers having all sorts of new tools that some will allow greater diversity in the utility that cloakers have.

I'd be open to DL changes, I'm not calling for them though.

A solution to the gamma problem that I used to hear people kicking around was not drawing cloakers past a certain range (something a little outside of the range of DL). This would work for a lot of the cheating problems, but would not be ideal for the ability to snipe cloakers. Maybe the sniper scope would notch up the draw distance.

As for friendly identification, I am all for this. The green name just isn't enough protection. I get that cloakers need to be careful around tank shells, but everybody has also seen tanks spam camping doors, doors that a cloaker needs to get inside of... Friendly snipers will pop a cloaker with little hesitation.

Cloakers can fill a valuable role in the battlefield ecosystem.

[Mightymouser]

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course. :)

I agree with everything you said, except this last bit. One of the great things about cloaking in PS (and most of the roles in PS) is that it is a fluid position which is up to the individual cloaker to decide. I have always been a 'infiltrator' of the 'sneak-in-and-blow-shit-up' mold; but that should by no means be the only playstyle available to cloakers. Many people disliked 'amp-tards' who ran around cloaked just to try to gank people, but they provided a useful counter to snipers at the same time. Two entirely different ends of the spectrum in terms of MO; yet both roles served the game...

I think the more openness they can leave for players to decide how to use the role, the better...

[exLupo]

I think the more openness they can leave for players to decide how to use the role, the better...

From a design standpoint, players ultimately control the way the game is played. All I was meaning was the initial implementation. The only real time that devs have total control over the game is at the moment of launch and I'm hoping their decisions are rational (form fits purpose) instead of emotional (lolz, that's so cool!).

In time, their decisions will mostly be reactionary. Taking how the players play and tweaking/adding things to flow with or shape the game. Granted, almost every game hits a point where devs take what they've learned over the years and do a massive retool. At that point, you just have to hope it's with the players in mind (blizzard's cata changes) as opposed to marketing's desires (NGE).

@RavenUSC3 - The only issue with patience is opportunity cost. PS1 stealth+patience could be 5 min sneaking to the core of a bse, 3 min setting up enough boomers to 1-shot the gen and 30 seconds of blackout while everyone rushes in and undoes your 8 minutes of work. Regardless of how gratifying it may have been, those 30 seconds usually made little impact to a properly defended base. Cool when it helps but, even then, your team may be dicks about it with the "Gen drops are for noobs" trend that started a good time ago.

Conversely, Spy in TF2 does essentially the same thing with engineer nests. Spend a minute sneaking in, kill the guard, sap the nest and even if it's still just 30 seconds, that's easily a win unless your team is totally oblivious.

Time invested : Reward reaped is something that needs to be taken into account in the design phase.

@Huma: "If you dont like getting flicked either don't give them a reason to flick DL." - The only reason that a player needs to spycheck is simply because cloakers exist in game at all. Early on, if DL and cloakers remain unchanged (both highly unlikely), it will be a field day for the invisible but, in time, DL flick will be reflex, regardless of reason. Look again to TF2 and compare the new Valve servers to a regular veteran server. Those that don't know to spycheck fall to constant chains of backstabs and blown engi nests. Those that do really can keep spy players in check, no pun intended.

Ultimately, avoiding suspicion only takes you so far. When the enemy team treats every moment of every day as alert time, there's little you can do. General paranoia plus one tactic (tf2) or implant (ps1) could nullify any realistic impact from any number of stealth units. Each additional detection tool only exacerbates the issue, increasing time investments and decreasing rewards.

Part of me would like them to totally scrap the PS1 stealth system altogether and create something totally new.